Spitfire trim comparisons

[ATAG_Snapper]

Referring to the Team Fusion Wikileaks, the Spitfire 1a 100 octane's cruise parameters are 2700 rpm @ 3 lbs boost.

I did a trial each in the following sims/Spits. Each trial was conducted at low altitude (2000 - 4000 ft). I would adjust rpms (prop pitch) and boost (throttle) to desired parameters (cruise, then combat), adjust elevator and rudder trim for level altitude and zero yaw, then release the stick. Please note that the forcefeedback effects with my Sidewinder 2 joystick may give a different response upon release to what a conventional joystick which automatically centers would give.

1) Cliffs of Dover TF 4.312: Spitfire 1a 100 octane at cruise and full combat (3000 rpm @ 12 lbs boost)
Results upon releasing stick:
Cruise - gentle roll to the right
Combat - dead steady

2) A2A FSX Spitfire 2a (more closely modelled to the Clod 1a 100 octane).

Results upon releasing the stick:
Cruise - dead steady, no roll
Combat - dead steady, no roll

3) DCS Spitfire IX (just for shitzen giggles)

Results upon releasing stick:
Cruise - strong roll to the right resulting in spin
Combat - strong roll to the right resulting in spin
note: it is very difficult to correctly adjust neutral trim in this Spit; full down elevator trim still has this Spitfire trying to climb even at cruise settings, requiring constant forward pressure of the stick even with full downward elevator trim dialed in. Rudder trim is mushy and imprecise to dial in compared to the Cliffs of Dover Spitfire 1a 100 octane and A2A Spitfire 2a.

:salute:

[LuseKofte]

Do like me , buy a non centering stick , you will never again trim your aircraft.
Non centering stick is realistic until they get airflow, after that in real world the stick will go forward when airflow get stronger than gravity. But since I do not have a real airflow nor FF to simulate airflow, what I have is a hack for being able to fly without having to hold the stick in all planes.
Realistic flight in a Spit is probably more dramatic than we experience it in game, not many of us are capable to make the judgement

My point is, you will probably not get your wishes for a non historical trim coming through, so you need to fix it with your hardware. spend some money

[ATAG_Snapper]

DCS does an excellent job with FFB, no way will I dispense with my Sidewinder 2! whaa

[LuseKofte]

DCS does an excellent job with FFB, no way will I dispense with my Sidewinder 2! whaa

Had one of those years ago, mine unfortunately made a terrible fuzz and noise every time I took off and shoot. By that time I had my rig in the living room. I had to get rid of it because my wife was about to get nuts. Good joystick though.

Anyway , thought I answered in this topic :(
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20623

I must getting senile

[ATAG_((dB))]

I think they are still working on the trims and fuel among other things. The rudder is too sensitive, the elevator not enough and too slow. The elevator trim doesn't react as it should within it's speed bracket. WIP but wow such a wonderful plane ;)

[BOO]

Not knocking anything but surely this is basic stuff? Perhaps not in terms of all the clever coding but in the "ooooo-that aint good" way some basic pre release testing might reveal?

Or, and again not knocking anything, is it simply just unavoidable these days given the dev costs, limited cash and need to get some return to continue the development?

Regards

BOO

[Catseye]

Hi Snapper,
My understanding of the roll to the right is that each of the producers you have listed has applied different values to the torque and flight dynamics of their models.
Some are still a work in progress, one might not even have those calculations.

Changes will likely take place that you will notice as they improve the numbers.

I'm not familiar with the FFB stick re: settings but . . . . can you fudge the centre point if required. (Possible work around in the short term?)

Cheers,
Cats . . .

[Catseye]

Not knocking anything but surely this is basic stuff?

Regards

BOO

There is a lot involved in getting this correct at the same time avoiding fudging things. It is not really basic stuff as you say.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hi Snapper,
My understanding of the roll to the right is that each of the producers you have listed has applied different values to the torque and flight dynamics of their models.
Some are still a work in progress, one might not even have those calculations.

Changes will likely take place that you will notice as they improve the numbers.

I'm not familiar with the FFB stick re: settings but . . . . can you fudge the centre point if required. (Possible work around in the short term?)

Cheers,
Cats . . .

Fudging? You bet! Just fly with two fingers on the joystick. This fools the grip sensor into instantly cancelling the FFB effects. The Sidewinder joystick effectively becomes a wet noodle. I do this when my Spit has taken hits (or blown the engine) and starts shaking uncontrollably. It also serves as a handy "neutral trim" when you need to run to the fridge for another beer. LOL

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Referring to the Team Fusion Wikileaks, the Spitfire 1a 100 octane's cruise parameters are 2700 rpm @ 3 lbs boost.

I did a trial each in the following sims/Spits. Each trial was conducted at low altitude (2000 - 4000 ft). I would adjust rpms (prop pitch) and boost (throttle) to desired parameters (cruise, then combat), adjust elevator and rudder trim for level altitude and zero yaw, then release the stick. Please note that the forcefeedback effects with my Sidewinder 2 joystick may give a different response upon release to what a conventional joystick which automatically centers would give.

1) Cliffs of Dover TF 4.312: Spitfire 1a 100 octane at cruise and full combat (3000 rpm @ 12 lbs boost)
Results upon releasing stick:
Cruise - gentle roll to the right
Combat - dead steady

2) A2A FSX Spitfire 2a (more closely modelled to the Clod 1a 100 octane).

Results upon releasing the stick:
Cruise - dead steady, no roll
Combat - dead steady, no roll

3) DCS Spitfire IX (just for shitzen giggles)

Results upon releasing stick:
Cruise - strong roll to the right resulting in spin
Combat - strong roll to the right resulting in spin
note: it is very difficult to correctly adjust neutral trim in this Spit; full down elevator trim still has this Spitfire trying to climb even at cruise settings, requiring constant forward pressure of the stick even with full downward elevator trim dialed in. Rudder trim is mushy and imprecise to dial in compared to the Cliffs of Dover Spitfire 1a 100 octane and A2A Spitfire 2a.

:salute:

The CoD Spitfire is not correct... freely admit that... partly a function of the unsolved bugs in the physics engine which existed at the time TF 4.312 was released, partly our modeling decisions at the time.

Actual historical combat cruise (cruise at rich mixture) ...settings for the Spit IIA are +7 boost and 2650 rpm. Virtual aircraft should trim at those settings. (with adjustment of the rudder and elevator)

We hope to have the cruise trim fixed when we implement the fix for the engine bug, hopefully for the re-release of CoD.

Combat Cruise for the Spit IX is also +7 boost/2650 rpm.

The Combat Cruise settings for the Spit I's depend on whether they are using 100 octane or 87. At 100 octane, they should be at +6.25 boost/2650 rpm. At 87 octane the combat cruise is at +4.5 boost/2600 rpm.

[Catseye]

Fudging? You bet! Just fly with two fingers on the joystick. This fools the grip sensor into instantly cancelling the FFB effects. The Sidewinder joystick effectively becomes a wet noodle. I do this when my Spit has taken hits (or blown the engine) and starts shaking uncontrollably. It also serves as a handy "neutral trim" when you need to run to the fridge for another beer. LOL

Interesting:

Just another comment.
Check page 137 of the DCS manual for Cruise settings - these can also be found in the Spit cockpit on the right side just under the gear lever.
I noticed that for the Spit IX they are different than what you set and this will also affect trim settings.

Cheers,
Cats . . .

[ATAG_Snapper]

@Buzzsaw & Catseye: thank you both for the extra info. :thumbsup:

:salute: