PDA

View Full Version : Operation Sunlight pre-beta testing



Salmo
Nov-14-2012, 21:12
BATTLE OF BRITAIN Operation Sunlight

I'm at the stage of pre-beta testing a new type of mission for inclusion on the ATAG server (if they accept it). At this stage it's hosted on my own Nations@War server but will be submitted to ATAG server 2 when I'm happy with it's development. The mission introduces several new game play elements in an attempt to make the play for 'war-like'.

I'd be grateful if pilots could pop in & give feedback while it's in development. I'm particualrly looking for gameplay bugs.

POINTS SYSTEM
A compehensive point scoring system that tracks virtually every object in the battle is available. The system has the following features:


Players can view their personal or army's points tally using the custom (TAB-4) menu.
Each item in the battle is assigned a points value. eg. Aircraft have more points than an AA unit, which is worth more than a single vehicle etc.
Points are awarded when an object is destroyed/killed.
Points are awarded proprtionaly to the amount of damage caused to the object by the player. eg if you do 50% of the damage you will be awarded 50% of the object's points value.
Non-primary target objects (targets of opportunity) have points.
All objects destroyed contribute to an army's total points scored irrespective of who or what destroyed them.
Points for objects that are damaged/destroyed/killed by non-players like AA units assigned to a 'miscellaneous' catagory and are added to the army's total score.
Points for objects damaged by friendly fire (friendly kills, AA hits etc) are assigned to a 'miscellaneous' catagory and are added to the opposing army's total score.


CURRENT OBJECT POINTS

Ground objects
AiGroundActorType.AAGun, 12
AiGroundActorType.AmmoComposition, 12
AiGroundActorType.Amphibian, 12
AiGroundActorType.ArmoredCar, 21
AiGroundActorType.Artillery, 21
AiGroundActorType.Balloon, 12
AiGroundActorType.Bridge, 100
AiGroundActorType.Bus, 8
AiGroundActorType.Car, 5
AiGroundActorType.ContainerLong, 20
AiGroundActorType.ContainerShort, 20
AiGroundActorType.EngineWagon, 50
AiGroundActorType.FreightWagon, 15
AiGroundActorType.Generator, 20
AiGroundActorType.House, 10
AiGroundActorType.LightTruck, 10
AiGroundActorType.Listener, 20
AiGroundActorType.Medic, 2
AiGroundActorType.Motorcycle, 2
AiGroundActorType.PassengerWagon, 50
AiGroundActorType.Plane, 20
AiGroundActorType.Predictor, 12
AiGroundActorType.Radar, 50
AiGroundActorType.RadioBeacon, 20
AiGroundActorType.RadioBeamProjector, 20
AiGroundActorType.SPG, 20
AiGroundActorType.Tank, 20
AiGroundActorType.Tractor, 12
AiGroundActorType.Trailer, 12
AiGroundActorType.Truck, 12
AiGroundActorType.ShipTransport, 150
AiGroundActorType.ShipMisc, 21
AiGroundActorType.ShipDestroyer, 150
AiGroundActorType.ShipSmallWarship, 150
AiGroundActorType.Unknown, 10

Aircraft
{"DiveBomber", 20},
{"Bomber", 30},
{"Bomber, DiveBomber", 25},
{"AmphibiousPlane", 15},
{"TorpedoBomber", 30},
{"Transport", 15},
{"BNZFighter", 15},
{"Fighter", 30},
{"Glider", 10},
{"HeavyFighter", 35},
{"JaBo", 10},
{"SailPlane", 10},
{"Scout", 10},
{"Sturmovik", 10},
{"TNBFighter", 18},
{"UNKNOWN", 15}

STATISTICS
Detailed game statistics are availabe via the custom (TAB-4) menu.

Personal Stats -

Individual (personal) points scored - Points for destroying target objects and aircraft, as well as other targets of opportunity.
Number of air kills - The number of enemy aircraft downed by the player. Half-kills and whole kills only apply.
Number of ground kills - The number of ground objects destroyed by the player.
Number of aiperson kills - The total of Ai & human person kills, including Ai & human pilots, gunners, navigators, bombadiers etc.
Aircraft losses- Shows the number of aircraft destroyed by aircraft type.
Number of ship kills - The number of ships the player has destroyed.


Aircrew losses - These stats are listed for all air crew (Ai & human pilots, gunners, navigators, bombadiers etc.) in the player's army. Stats for the opposing army are not availabe for viewing.


MIA's - Total of human & Ai pilots missing in action. Air crew that bail out over water are initially listed as MIA. The MIA numbers may change over time as aircrew are confirmed as killed in action or as prisoners of war.
KIA's - Total of human & Ai aircrew killed in action. Includes pilot kills, gunner kills, parachutes not opening etc.
POW's - Total of human & Ai pilots taken as prisoners of war. Air crew are taken as POW's if they bail out or crash-land in enemy territory. If they land within 10km of the front line they have a small chance of escaping & not being captured.


Shipping losses- Shows the number of ships destroyed & their approximate total tonnage.

Battle Points - Total points for red & blue armies in the battle. Includes points scored by humans & Ai's (pilots, AA guns etc).

Number of players - Shows the number of online humans players in each army.

AIRCRAFT TRACKING UNITS
Tracking enemy aircraft movements was pivital to Battle of Briatin operations. Aircraft tracking was achieved by use of radar, aerial & ground observations. The following radar units have been implimented to simulate various aircraft tracking techniques used during WW2. This radar simulation is quite complex & life-like.

GERMAN FREYA RADAR
Germany developed Freya radar in 1937. Freya radar was highly accurate in determining aircraft numbers & altitude. Although more advanced than the English Chain radar, Freya sufferered from serious deficiencies including patchy coverage & a poor & uncoordinated reporting & response system.

Freya Radar has these features:

The radar will accurately report the number & altitude of enemy aircraft. This reflects the more advanced nature of Freya.
Freya will report enemy aircraft irregularly reflecting the patchy coverage & uncoordinated manner of German radar use during the Battle of Briatin.
Freya maximum range is about 60km.
Effective range varies between 50km & 60km. ie Any given radar sweep may vary in its range, reflecting variation due to weather etc.
Freya radar projects a upward angled beam above the horizontal. Effective minimum height therefore, varies depending upon the distance from the radar to the target.
Freya radar is an outward-looking radar, it does not report enemy aircraft over France even if the aircraft are within it's operating range.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for about 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the Freya unit.
Freya units can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed Freya radar unit ceases to operate.


CHAIN HOME RADAR

Chain Home radar (CH) was the code-name for the ring of early warning radars around the English coastline. The system was not able to detect aircraft at low altitude & was used in conjuction with the Chain Home Low (CHL) radar system. Although inferior in accuracy to Freya radar, the English radar formed one part of a well coordinated air defence system.

CH Radar has these features:

CH units are located mostly along the coastline of southern England. They can be distinguished by their in-line array of 3-4 large towers.
CH radar will report the number & altitude of enemy aircraft, but numbers & altitude may vary slightly from true altitude/numbers. This reflects some of the inaccuracy in the CH system.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the CH unit.
CH radar is an outward-looking radar, it does not report enemy aircraft over England even if the aircraft are within it's operating range.
CH has a range of about 190km.
Effective range varies between 130km & 190km. ie Any given radar sweep may vary in its range, reflecting variation due to weather etc.
CH radar projects a upward angled beam about 15 degrees above the horizontal. Effective minimum height therefore, varies depending upon the distance from the radar to the target. eg. at 5km from the radar the effective minimum height is 1,400m, at 10km from the radar the effective minimum height is 2,600m, at 20km from the radar the effective minimum height is 5,300m, at 40km from the radar the effective minimum height is 10,700m, at 70km from the radar the effective minimum height is 18,750m, and so on.
CH units can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed CH radar unit ceases to operate.


CHAIN HOME LOW RADAR

Chain Home Low (CHL) was the code-name for the ring of early warning radars around the English coastline. The system detected lower flying aircraft than the CH system & was used in conjuction with the Chain Home Low (CH) radar system.

CHL Radar has these features:

CH units are located mostly (but not always) along the coastline of southern England. They can be distinguished by a single tower & nearby buldings with smaller radar units on top.
CHL radar will report the number & altitude of enemy aircraft, but numbers & altitude may vary slightly from true readings. This reflects some of the inaccuracy in the CHL system.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the OC unit.
CHL radar is an outward-looking radar, it does not report enemy aircraft over England even if the aircraft are within it's operating range.
CHL has a range of about 46km.
Effective range varies between 36km & 46km. ie Any given radar sweep may vary in its range, reflecting variation due to weather etc.
CHL radars can detect aircraft as low as 500 feet (150 meters).
CHL units can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed CHL radar unit ceases to operate.


OBSERVER CORP

Observer Corp (OC) units simulate the Royal Observer Corp , a civil defence organisation operating in the United Kingdom between 29 October 1925 and 31 December 1995. The OC played an important role in tracking aircraft movements during the Battle of Britain.

The OC has the following features:

OC units are located throughout southern England. They can be found along the coast and in or near towns. They appear as a circle of sandbags containing a map board & heightfinder object.
OC units will constantly scan the skies in a 360 degree arc around themselves looking for enemy aircraft within range of the unit.
OC unit range is about 10km, but varies depending upon time of day & weather.
OC unit accuracy (the number number of aircraft sighted & their altitude) may vary slightly from true numbers/altitude.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for about 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the OC unit.
Observer units are ground units similar to AA batteries (but they do not fire at aircraft), they can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed OC unit ceases to operate.



OBOE RADIO NAVIGATION (available soon)
Radio transponder technology was developed during WW2. OBOE was a British aerial blind bombing targeting system that used a radio beam to guide aircraft to their target. Blenheim bombers are equiped with a simulation of the OBOE blind bombing radio navigation system.

OBOE has these features:


Pilots can turn OBOE off & on using their pitot heater switch.
OBOE calculates a navigation vector from a base unit in southern England to the designated target.
Navigation information is displayed in the pilot's HUD display.
The HUD shows the distance left or right of the straight-line vector from the base unit to the target. The pilot is able to position the aircraft so it remains in the centre of this beam.
Drift left or right of the navigation beam & the display will tell you how much correction is needed to get back on track.
When the pilot is close to the target, a 'countdown to bomb-drop' timer will also be displayed. The countdown takes account of the aircraft's speed & altitude to calcuate the precise moment when to drop your bombs for maximum effect.
With practice, this system is very accurate in putting your bombs in the pickle barrel, even at altitude.


VEHICLES
You may find many different types of vehicles moving throughout the battlefield. There may be mobile civilian & military vehicles in towns, on roads, or at airfields or other locations. You may also encounter goods or passenger trains. Take care taxiing, landing etc as vehicles may be in the area. Naturally, enemy vehicles are always targets of opportunity.

WEATHER
Weather is turned off for pre-beta testing. In due course the weather will have more cloud & wind to simulate some of the poorer weather during the Battle of Britain.

AERIAL RECONNAISSANCE
Aerial reconnaissance is the collection of information about the disposition of enemy units, and about the status of possible targets by aircraft. This is usually achieved by aircraft over-flying areas of interest & reporting observations or taking photographs. A reconnaissance system has been built to simulate the scouting and observation activities of WW2 recon units.

AI Planes - Some Ai bomber aircraft are designated as recon planes. Recon planes may or may not have a fighter escort. When a recon plane reaches it's objective, it radios back to base to report the objective's status. To simulate this action, a message will appear in the player's HUD display and an icon will appear on the mini-map showing the objective location, status & time of the recon event.

Human Planes - (testing at this time) Players may recon enemy objects such as target objectives, AA units, observer corps units, vehicles, factories, etc. Just fly over the object & use the (TAB-4) custom menu 'Recon object' option. The nearest object in range will appear as an icon on the mini-map in a similar manner to Ai Plane recons.

Reconnaissance features:

Recon icons are only visible to players in the same army as the aircraft that perfomed the reconnaissance .
Recon icons show the enemy object's status at the time of the recon, and not necessarily it's current status.
Recon icons for mobile objects (like vehicles) shows their position at the time of recon & not necessarily their current position
Recon icons for fixed (stationary) objectives remain on the mini-map until an objective is reached or the object is destroyed.
Recon icons for mobile objects are removed from the mini-map after 30 minutes.
A new recon event will update the mini-map icon with the target's current status & position.


AI FLIGHTS
At this stage I have Ai flights for both sides spawning about every 10-20 minutes. This will be changed during development to suitably compliment human gameplay. The number of Ai aircraft in any given flight is randomised. Don't expect to run into the same number of aircraft that you encountered last time you played the mission. Bomber flights may or may not have up to nine (or more) escorting fighters. Pair-up, use a wingman or fly with others as a team.

ATAG_Colander
Nov-14-2012, 21:36
:stunned:

We'll be happy to test it on server 2 when ever you are ready.

Salmo
Nov-14-2012, 22:19
KNOWN ISSUES:

15 Nov 2012
a. Incorrect time on map icons - Most map icons will have the correct game time ie. the time the recon was made. However, some icons may have a game time that is 10-20 minutes 'in the future' ahead of the actual time of day. This is not a scripting issue, it appears to be a Doctor Who time-vortex introduced by 1C & the dev's.

b. Icons not appearing on mini-map - Some players are reporting a delay in icons appearing on the map screen. ie. Some players will see icons up to 1 minute before other players.

BUG FIXES/CHANGES
21 Nov 2012
* Fixed player aircraft despawning when player changes places (ie switches from pilot to gunner seat).
* Fixed players landing at enemy airfields, players & aircrew are now captured & plane points awarded to opposition.
22 Nov 2012
* Removed SpitIIa's from the battle.
* Added Me-109 E-4 & G50 to airfields inland France, behind the front line.
* Added airfield commander model. Airfield commanders will order-in additional AA defences if their airfield is under constant attack.
23 Nov 2012
* Fixed radar units still calling contacts after they are destroyed.

1 Dec 2012
1. Upgradable aircraft at bases
- All airbases now start with basic/early aircraft types.
- One random red airbase will upgrade from non 100oct aircraft to 100oct aircraft every 40-45min.
- One random blue airbase will upgrade from Bf109 E1 aircraft to Bf109 E3 aircraft, or perhaps Me110 C4 to Me110 C7, every 30-45min.
- Airbase upgrades announced on relevent army player HUDs in-game.

2. Dynamic airbase AA
- Airbase commanders now monitor enemy activity over their airfield and will spawn additional AA pieces at the most frequently attacked base every 15min.
- Airbase AA upgrades announced on relevent army player's HUDs in-game.

3. Other changes
- Introduced weather report in the custom menu. Ground controller -> weather report
- More vehicles around blue bases.
- More AA on blue side of the Channel.
- Reduced vocalisation time of radar calls. Announcements are shorter & hopefully less annoying.
- Refined the aircrew losses code, should count more accurately now.
- Landing at enemy bases should result in you & your aircrew being captured.
- Several other minor tweaks

Ivank
Nov-14-2012, 22:28
Sounds great Salmo. Given you have implemented a pseudo OBOE system how about the Luftwaffe Beam systems X Gerate and Y Gerate ?
I have a document I wrote and supplied to 1C yonks ago explaining its operation in Sim friendly terms. The hope was to get it into CLOD alas it never made it. This includes the system and the operation of the Bombing clock etc. The OKL bombers have the AF2N in CLOD fitted to provide Left Right and cross beam indications, no count back bomb clock though to measure Ground speed and Release computation though.

OBOE was a 1941 piece of kit X/Y Gerate a genuine 1940 system :)

Salmo
Nov-14-2012, 23:05
OBOE was a 1941 piece of kit X/Y Gerate a genuine 1940 system :)

There's no reason why X/Y Gerate cannot be impliment for blue. I wanted to debug the oboe system with public testing first but intend to impliment various radio navigation systems in due course. can you email me the X/Y Gerate technical info & I'll have a think about how it can best be simulated.

Doc
Nov-15-2012, 00:29
The beam implementation would be really awesome!

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-15-2012, 00:30
Very cool stuff!

Ivank
Nov-15-2012, 00:39
Ok Salmo will do. Just PM me a suitable Email addy.

ATAG_JTDawg
Nov-15-2012, 00:40
WOW!!! :thumbsup:

Salmo
Nov-15-2012, 00:51
Ok Salmo will do. Just PM me a suitable Email addy.

Done

Ivank
Nov-15-2012, 01:36
Done its heading south to Mexico as I type :)

Salmo
Nov-15-2012, 02:41
Done its heading south to Mexico as I type :)

Mexico :goofy FTF? More like North Antarctica :PP Got it thnx. Many of these types of radio navigation beams produced audible outputs to the pilots (Lorenz landing for example). I haven't found a way to impliment sound across the on-line game network connections though.

Collander, I know you've previously said that it can't be done, but can you have another look & see if there's any way to get sound to online players via a script? This part of any implimentation is beyond me.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-15-2012, 05:30
Salmo,

All the radar stuff (both sides) looks amazing.
Well done!

Might have to jump on your server to help test!

Roblex
Nov-15-2012, 05:42
Will this be going onto ATAG 1, staying on ATAG II. Will it be CEM etc?

Salmo
Nov-15-2012, 05:49
Will this be going onto ATAG 1, staying on ATAG II. Will it be CEM etc?

I'm doing some testing on my squad server before the mission is submitted to ATAG. The procedure will be that ATAG will put it on their server 2 for further testing. In due course I hope the mission will be hosted on ATAG server 1 but that will be for the ATAG admins to decide.

Doc
Nov-15-2012, 15:13
I look forward to this mission. The talent required to make all this boggles the mind. :goofy

ATAG_Colander
Nov-15-2012, 15:28
I look forward to this mission. The talent required to make all this boggles the mind. :goofy

And the time!

Doc
Nov-15-2012, 15:55
Let me know if I can help. :thumbsup:

56RAF_klem
Nov-15-2012, 18:33
Brilliant Salmo!

That must be a massive script or at least a massive scripting effort.

56 are looking forward to trying it out.

PS. Any good at FMs ? :D

<looks around for 1C moderators> :recon:

Salmo
Nov-15-2012, 20:15
Brilliant Salmo!

That must be a massive script or at least a massive scripting effort.

56 are looking forward to trying it out.

PS. Any good at FMs ? :D

<looks around for 1C moderators> :recon:

Scripting missions takes many hours of coding & testing. Not that the number of C# code line has anything to do with script quality, but I'm up to 3,818 lines at this stage with many more future features to code. I'll leave the FM's to those more knowlegable than me.

ATAG_Colander
Nov-16-2012, 12:29
Collander, I know you've previously said that it can't be done, but can you have another look & see if there's any way to get sound to online players via a script? This part of any implimentation is beyond me.

Salmo,

You can use SayToGroup but you are limited to the sounds that came with the game. I think you want to play a non-standard sound and that is not possible AFAIK.

Salmo
Nov-18-2012, 06:38
Hi again all. Squashed some more bugs in Operation Sunlight over the last few days. Many thanks to |450|Squadron (http://www.450sqdn.com) & others for help with testing. Just to let you know that the beta-candidate mission is running on the AUS_Nations@War server for then next 24-48 hrs or so. Check it out! If no further feedback about bugs etc I will then forward it on to Bliss for hosting on ATAG server 2.

Some additional notes:

Win/Loss objectives: 1st Army to get 2,000 points wins.
Chain radar stations: RAF Dover, RAF Dunkirk & RAF Warden point (Isle of Sheppey) 500 points each for blue.
Point scoring: Almost all game objects have points. Cars, trucks, planes etc. Remember if you lose your plane you will be giving points to the opposition. (Also thinking about implimenting points to the opposition for human players that don't make it home ie points for planes and points for aircrew).
Radar: Both sides have active radar, red has more effective radar than blue. If you're over the Channel you are probably scanned on radar & visible to the opposition as an icon on the mini-map. They WILL be able to see you're alone, & plot your position & altitude, and you'll pretty much be dead-meat. Fly with a buddy or group.
Radar icons: Note that aircraft contacts appear as an aircraft icon on the minimap. The icon will always be facing east irrespective of the actual direction the aircraft is travelling.

Salmo
Nov-19-2012, 02:00
Operation Sunlight has now been sent to ATAG_Bliss for testing on ATAG server 2. Hope you like it.

ATAG_Septic
Nov-19-2012, 07:42
Hi Salmo,

I had a mission on this whilst it was up on the AUS server and it seemed to work very well. I was the only one on so it wasn't a test of a populated server but I enjoyed following radar contacts to intercept a raid, which I believe was two 109s and two JU88s. It was great fun chasing the contacts and eventually spotting them a few miles beyond the last contact report.

Thanks for sharing all your efforts.

Septic.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-20-2012, 10:43
Operation Sunlight has now been sent to ATAG_Bliss for testing on ATAG server 2. Hope you like it.

Salmo - Sent you a PM. I tried your link and it didn't work.

Salmo
Nov-20-2012, 11:47
Salmo - Sent you a PM. I tried your link and it didn't work.

I've emailed you the mission Bliss

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-20-2012, 14:11
I've emailed you the mission Bliss

Just checked my inbox and spam. It's not there. Can you re-send it?

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-20-2012, 14:22
Was able to download from the link.

Operation Sunlight is now on Server 2.

Thanks Salmo!

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-20-2012, 19:03
Gotta try this tonight!!!! Thanks to you both! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-20-2012, 23:44
I've emailed you the mission Bliss

Salmo, do you mind if I put this in server 1? I don't think we'll really get any feedback until people try it on the other server.

Doc
Nov-21-2012, 00:11
Salmo, do you mind if I put this in server 1? I don't think we'll really get any feedback until people try it on the other server.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::)

Salmo
Nov-21-2012, 00:57
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::)

Not at all mate. It's ATAG's call.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-21-2012, 01:11
That would be a great idea, Bliss! I just ran a few sorties from the RAF side and it was glitch-free for me. The menu TAB - 4 system worked, as did the mini-map radar icons. Salmo was on to give me some background on how the radar works, but it's very intuitive to monitor from the cockpit. Shot down a Stuka and a recce 108 Taifun (!), both located via radar. Of course, if the radar you're tasked to defend gets knocked out.......

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-21-2012, 01:21
Not at all mate. It's ATAG's call.

Ok cool. I'll put it in the rotation on server 1 :D

Edit: Just happened to be the start of a new mission when I put it on so it's up on Server 1 right now.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-21-2012, 01:29
Ok cool. I'll put it in the rotation on server 1 :D

Edit: Just happened to be the start of a new mission when I put it on so it's up on Server 1 right now.

Cool beans! I'm heading there now! :thumbsup:

Salmo
Nov-21-2012, 01:30
Ok cool. I'll put it in the rotation on server 1 :D

Edit: Just happened to be the start of a new mission when I put it on so it's up on Server 1 right now.

Bliss, see PM. Small update to script file

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-21-2012, 01:41
Bliss, see PM. Small update to script file

Roger - Check my PM as well please!

Roblex
Nov-21-2012, 05:32
This looks really exciting but one thing concerns me. While we would like to think that players works for the benefit of their team, experience shows that most are more concerned with personal glory. The info given in this thread makes no reference to individual penalties for players who die. There is some reference to maybe penalising the team as a whole when someone fails to RTB. If this is true then score whores will just dive into the largest group of enemy around and spray bullets everywhere knowing that each bullet that hits pushes up their score and when they die it makes no difference to them. I understand that even if someone dies after shooting down an enemy then the enemy has suffered a loss but we need something to reward people for staying alive. Personally I would not add anything to an individuals score unless he gets home alive but some people find that too harsh.

Salmo
Nov-21-2012, 05:37
Some bug fixes today. See post #3 for information.

Salmo
Nov-21-2012, 05:47
This looks really exciting but one thing concerns me. While we would like to think that players works for the benefit of their team, experience shows that most are more concerned with personal glory. The info given in this thread makes no reference to individual penalties for players who die. There is some reference to maybe penalising the team as a whole when someone fails to RTB. If this is true then score whores will just dive into the largest group of enemy around and spray bullets everywhere knowing that each bullet that hits pushes up their score and when they die it makes no difference to them. I understand that even if someone dies after shooting down an enemy then the enemy has suffered a loss but we need something to reward people for staying alive. Personally I would not add anything to an individuals score unless he gets home alive but some people find that too harsh.

Let me explain.
1. score whores will just dive into the largest group of enemy around and spray bullets everywhere knowing that each bullet that hits pushes up their score and when they die it makes no difference to them. target points are not awared when a target is hit. Points are only awarded when a target is killed/destroyed. Individual points are awarded to players proportionally to the amount of damage they do. "Kills" are awarded only to players who do substancial damage ie. If you do less than about 30% of the total damage you will get points but not be awarded any kill. If you do about 30-70% of the total damage you will be awarded a half-kill, and if you do more than 70% of the total damage you will be awarded 1 kill.

2. I understand that even if someone dies after shooting down an enemy then the enemy has suffered a loss but we need something to reward people for staying alive. I couldn't agree more. Now how to impliment a meaningful methodology to get pilots to value their aircraft & their life. I have a time-penalty built into the script (it's turned off at the moment) where a player will have to wait (say) 1-2 minutes before they can respawn aftert they die. I could also impliment points to the opposition for losing your life in addition to the lost aircraft points. yet another method might be to "store" the points accumulated by a player on any given sortie. If they RTB OK they get the points (which is added to the army's overall points tally), if they die, then the army gets the points but they personally don't get awarded the points. I'm open to suggestions.

AllMattersFecal
Nov-21-2012, 06:38
Just got finished with a couple sorties on the new mission and it's ALL SORTS OF AWESOME. Great work Salmo.

If it counts, I vote for not tallying the score until the pilot RTB. It would give incentive to fully experience the damage model/fuel consumption aspect of the game...which is, IMO, what separates the greatness that is CloD from other sims, modern and of old...also it builds immersion in the sense that you RTB and tell all your mates and pretty ladies about your kills back at the airfield once you get there...but if you don't make it back, the story is never told/tallied.

One question though, if RTB to tally score is implemented, will that affect the score that is added to your mission script only, or affect the built-in scoreboard that is on the playerlist that cane with CloD as well? I feel that a lot of people will still be fixated on the original scoreboard, kind if nullifying the tally system. Is there a way to influence the original scoreboard to mirror the new scripted scoring system?

Roblex
Nov-21-2012, 07:39
""Kills" are awarded only to players who do substancial damage ie. If you do less than about 30% of the total damage you will get points but not be awarded any kill"

I only mentioned points and your reply confirms that getting a few bullets into every bomber in a group at the expense of your own life will give you points (assuming someone else finishes them off which is normal with bomber groups)

"If they RTB OK they get the points (which is added to the army's overall points tally), if they die, then the army gets the points but they personally don't get awarded the points."

Sounds good to me though maybe also credit for returning home on foot after a bailout or crash landing on friendly soil.

Salmo
Nov-21-2012, 08:03
A quick summary of mission stats 1st time through. About 20 online players average.


STAT / RED / BLUE
----------------------
Start 05:30am End (red wins) 11.00am

MIA's .......... 16 .............. 1
KIA's .......... 252 ............. 146
POW's ......... 52 ............. 17

Fighters ....... 22 ....... 77
Bombers ...... 63 ....... 15
Other .......... 0 ........ 23

Ships ........... 2 ......... 3
Tonns .......... 13,415 ... 13,950

Points .......... 3,000 ... 2,100 (Red wins)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-21-2012, 08:21
Just got finished with a couple sorties on the new mission and it's ALL SORTS OF AWESOME. Great work Salmo.


I agree entirely.
There are some really nice new elements to this mission that will have an impact on game play!

risske
Nov-21-2012, 08:23
"Kills" are awarded only to players who do substancial damage ie. If you do less than about 30% of the total damage you will get points but not be awarded any kill. If you do about 30-70% of the total damage you will be awarded a half-kill, and if you do more than 70% of the total damage you will be awarded 1 kill
Hello, Salmo!
What happens If someone hits a pilot to death by a couple of bullets which causes enemy aircraft`s crash (this happens often)? In that case a total damage caused to the aircraft may be less than 30%

Salmo
Nov-21-2012, 09:47
Hello, Salmo!
What happens If someone hits a pilot to death by a couple of bullets which causes enemy aircraft`s crash (this happens often)? In that case a total damage caused to the aircraft may be less than 30%

Good point Risske. Can pilots watch for this situation & report if they are getting pilot kills, but not getting awarded an aircraft kill when the plane crashes please.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-21-2012, 09:56
Last night there were just a few of us on, I caught SKUD flying his 109 low near Hawkinge. He was looking for a truck convoy, so I was able to come up from behind and shoot him down -- but not by a pilot kill, I don't think. Nonetheless, I was not awarded any points.

Just reporting this as feedback -- I was having too much fun on your mission to care! :thumbsup:

BTW everyone: Slipstream reports that......Canterbury NOW HAS A FLIPPIN' CATHEDRAL!!!!!! :stunned:

risske
Nov-21-2012, 11:06
If you do about 30-70% of the total damage you will be awarded a half-kill
Неу, Salmo!
Thanks for the quick reply. Dont you mind if I bother you again? Ноw does that "half-kill" look like in personal stats? If this is not a "kill" nor points, what is it? I mean If it has its own separate column in stats table or something. And do those "half-kills" summarize somehow to turn into proper "kill"?

AllMattersFecal
Nov-21-2012, 15:44
Had I question in my previous post that might've gotten looked over...

One question though, if RTB to tally score is implemented, will that affect the score that is added to your mission script only, or affect the built-in scoreboard that is on the playerlist that came with CloD as well? I feel that a lot of people will still be fixated on the original scoreboard, kind of nullifying the tally system. Is there a way to influence the original scoreboard to mirror the new scripted scoring system?

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-21-2012, 22:18
Just flew the map, brilliant work Salmo!

As an aside, shot down a 109...set it on fire, pilot killed...no credit :grrr:

Not a big deal as I got credit for my other 4 kills on the sortie...

Catseye
Nov-21-2012, 22:39
Interesting map.

Not sure if I'm liking the icons on the mini-map. Sort of fly's in the face of a full switch server?

Still evaluating.

Cheers

Follow up: Flew online for about 1 hr. on the blue side and noticed there were continuous micro-stutters. No big pauses or lag for me - just continual flicker-like all the time.

I'm beginning to understand the mini-map more and do appreciate the effort for situational awareness but . . . . . I am one of those pilots that feel this reduces the element of disbelief and even though it doesn't act like an F16 MFD, it still is too artificial for me. If it was a voice command, now that would be the thing.

Still working on the TAB4 thing and have to go back and read over the blurb.

I fly full real. I don't use any text boxes and rely solely on instruments and voice comms. So I guess I'm on the far right of the "fly as real as you can" scale. I say this so you can measure how my input compares to others.

Cheers Guys,
Good stuff always coming down the pipe and much appreciated.

MK.Mr.X
Nov-21-2012, 22:55
There is a lag ... Why do we need so many bots bombers? and the more fighters bots?
Why not E4 when there spit2a?:stunned:
Statistics bad. Downed counted only if they fall, the plane.

III./ZG76_Keller
Nov-22-2012, 00:04
Switching to a gunner position on a Ju88 makes the plane disappear.

CIA_Panteramutt
Nov-22-2012, 00:37
Flew it last night for a couple sorties and there were too many clouds to make it enjoyable from a framerate point of new. I would tone down the clouds until 1) the frame hit is fixed, and 2) MORE importantly, they don't frost up your engine and cockpit! This is just silly, that a cloud below 10,000' in summer/early fall would have ice in it. I know it's been there all along, but with the few clouds on the other maps it wasn't much of an issue.

Otherwise, the icons etc. worked great.

Salmo, thanks for the effort and keeping things fresh!!

CIA_Panteramutt

EDIT: much better tonight, spawned in later; last time it was dawn and 75% cloud cover over Dover....but tonight it was great!

AllMattersFecal
Nov-22-2012, 01:11
There is a lag ... Why do we need so many bots bombers? and the more fighters bots?
Why not E4 when there spit2a?:stunned:
Statistics bad. Downed counted only if they fall, the plane.

Kills were only counted if the aircraft was shot down in WW2, I believe. Otherwise, it was counted as "probable" or "damaged"

ATAG_Colander
Nov-22-2012, 01:44
Kills were only counted if the aircraft was shot down in WW2, I believe. Otherwise, it was counted as "probable" or "damaged"

And you needed a witness :D

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-22-2012, 02:29
Salute

Shot a 109's fuel tanks out. He ditched in the ocean.

No kill credit.

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 02:36
Thankyou for all the feedback everyone.

Risske - Ноw does that "half-kill" look like in personal stats?.
A half-kill wil appear as 0.5 in the TAB-4-1 (personal stats menu) aircraft kills list.

Risske - If this is not a "kill" nor points, what is it?
It is both kill & points. A half kill will get you between 30-70% of the objects total points value depending upon the amount of damage you did to the object.

Risske - I mean If it has its own separate column in stats table or something.
Personal stats in-game (TAB-4-1) are for the mission, they are seperate from the server stats web-page.

Riske - And do those "half-kills" summarize somehow to turn into proper "kill"?
You could possibly get 2 half-kill will then would be listed in your personal stats as 1.0 kills.

AllMatterFecal - if RTB to tally score is implemented, will that affect the score that is added to your mission script only, ..
The score system is mission-specific & is seperate from the COD scoreboard. It can be scripted that a score is only awarded when a player RTB's. The mission scoring system is used to determine battle win/loss not the COD score system.

AllMatterFecal - or affect the built-in scoreboard that is on the playerlist that came with CloD as well?
The scoring I've implimented is independent of the COD scoring system.

AllMatterFecal - I feel that a lot of people will still be fixated on the original scoreboard, kind of nullifying the tally system. Is there a way to influence the original scoreboard to mirror the new scripted scoring system?
Possibly. It's not something I've looked into.

Deacon - As an aside, shot down a 109...set it on fire, pilot killed...no credit
I presume you got no points for the aircraft, but were awarded an AiPerson (aircrew) kill. Is it possible the pilot respawned before the aircraft crashed?

Catseye - Not sure if I'm liking the icons on the mini-map. Sort of fly's in the face of a full switch server?
Thankyou for your opinion. The mission is an idea that is still developing. Future changes are still possible.

Mr-X - There is a lag ... Why do we need so many bots bombers? and the more fighters bots?
Ai aircraft were implimented so I had something to test the mission with. At the moment, red & blue flights spawn randomly every 10-20 minutes. If players feel that there are too many Ai or that Ai are not required, I'm happy to adjust the mission accordingly.

Mr-X - Why not E4 when there spit2a?
This question was bound to be asked at some stage. Planesets are a WIP & I'm happy to introduce an E4 if players want one. The battle is targeted towards June-July 1940 so I started with 'early' BOB planeset. If better aircraft are introduced I would prefer that they be available at bases a little further away from the coast & thus increased flying time. Do we need to restrict the numbers of some of the better planes?

Mr-X - Statistics bad. Downed counted only if they fall, the plane.
Aircraft kills/points are only counted when the plane crashes. Am I missing counting some kills? This may be an issue if the pilot respawns before the plane actually crashes. Can player keep an eye on this please, it may require some reworking of the script.

ATAG_Keller - Switching to a gunner position on a Ju88 makes the plane disappear.
The mission script was updated today. This bug should be fixed, please report again if it persists.

CIA_Panteramutt - Flew it last night for a couple sorties and there were too many clouds to make it enjoyable from a framerate point of new.
That's odd. There is no weather implimented in the mission ie no additional clouds. Clouds are set to medium at 600m. If I reduce clouds further to 'light' or 'clear' you will be flying in a perfectly clear sky with unlimited visibility, which IMO is unrealistic for southern England. can you check your graphics settings to see if there is any adjustments to be made to improve your fps.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-22-2012, 02:45
The battle is targeted towards June-July 1940 so I started with 'early' BOB planeset.

100 octane Spitfires and Hurricanes were in action during Dunkirk, in fact the switch over to the higher grade fuel happened in March and April.

The early 87 octane planes are not a match for the E-1, in fact it seems the way the E-1's are turning now, the 100 octane planes have a tough time.

Look at the kills figures for Fighter vs Fighter... considerably out of balance.

Roblex
Nov-22-2012, 02:56
I was disappointed last night to spend three hours in ATAG at European prime time (7-10GMT) and never see the new mission. Any chance of taking any other missions out of the rotation to make it more likely we see the new one (and also get you more feedback)?

MK.Mr.X
Nov-22-2012, 03:21
Mr-X - Why not E4 when there spit2a?
This question was bound to be asked at some stage. Planesets are a WIP & I'm happy to introduce an E4 if players want one. The battle is targeted towards June-July 1940 so I started with 'early' BOB planeset. If better aircraft are introduced I would prefer that they be available at bases a little further away from the coast & thus increased flying time. Do we need to restrict the numbers of some of the better planes?

All about balance!
* You set the E1 against spit2a. This is not normal. Many pilots can not even manage to E4 with him.
You want the story? Then release them at the end of the war and a half of ammunition. Since they WEDGE guns constantly.



Mr-X - Statistics bad. Downed counted only if they fall, the plane.
Aircraft kills/points are only counted when the plane crashes. Am I missing counting some kills? This may be an issue if the pilot respawns before the plane actually crashes. Can player keep an eye on this please, it may require some reworking of the script.


I've killed the pilot, but I have not included them. They not fell to the ground. That's the problem with your statistics.
Today I shot at the enemy aircraft, damaged it, and he just came out of the game. The plane disappeared. Do not fall to the ground, no points. And that is not half ammunition:grrr:

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 03:22
100 octane Spitfires and Hurricanes were in action during Dunkirk, in fact the switch over to the higher grade fuel happened in March and April.

The early 87 octane planes are not a match for the E-1, in fact it seems the way the E-1's are turning now, the 100 octane planes have a tough time.

Look at the kills figures for Fighter vs Fighter... considerably out of balance.

I'm not much interested in opening up another dicussion about equalising planes according to their current COD FM's. I'd like to have a representative planeset for the period irrespective of whether one is better than the other, either in RL or in the game. That being said, it looks like we should have some 100oct Spits & Hurri's then. My understanding is that these were not available in large numbers at the time though. I don't fly blue, so I'm open to knowledgable blue pilots suggesting LW/Italian plane types & numbers.

Mr-X - All about balance! * You set the E1 against spit2a. This is not normal. Many pilots can not even manage to E4 with him. You want the story? Then release them at the end of the war and a half of ammunition. Since they WEDGE guns constantly.
There should not be Spit2a's in the battle. There are Spit 1a's at Hornchurch & West Malling. Spiti1a 100oct & Hurri Mk1 100oct are available at Biggin Hill & West Malling. All of these are some distance behind the front line. Am I missing something? Where are you getting the Spit2a's from?

Mr-X - I've killed the pilot, but I have not included them. They not fell to the ground. That's the problem with your statistics. Today I shot at the enemy aircraft, damaged it, and he just came out of the game. The plane disappeared. Do not fall to the ground, no points. And that is not half ammunition
If I understand you correctly, there are two problems.
(1) you killed a pilot but was not given an Aiperson kill.
You should be awarded an AiPerson kill at the time the person is killed irrespective of whether they leave the game after they are killed. I will look into this to see if I can find why you were not give a person kill.

(2) a player is not awarded points for a damaged plane if the damaged plane's pilot leaves the game.
This is a fair point. It may be better to award a player & their army the points for a damaged plane if the player leaves the server after damage occurs.

MK.Mr.X
Nov-22-2012, 03:37
There should not be Spit2a's in the battle. There are Spit 1a's at Hornchurch & West Malling. Spiti1a 100oct & Hurri Mk1 100oct are available at Biggin Hill & West Malling. All of these are some distance behind the front line. Am I missing something? Where are you getting the Spit2a's from?

I did not fly for the Reds in this mission. Today, when the mission began, I saw three spit2a in flight.

AllMattersFecal
Nov-22-2012, 03:58
I did not fly for the Reds in this mission. Today, when the mission began, I saw three spit2a in flight.

Red pilot here, I couldn't find any IIa's in the mission today.

To admins: is it possible to edit the mission rotation to have Salmo's mission playing during low-population hours? 9pm through 2am PST. I was flying with a friend and having a great, action-filled time even with only 11 people online...the mission then switched to the blues taking off from Manston/Hawkinge one and it became a free flight, sight-seeing tour of England for everyone...the server pop. died within 30 min.

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 03:58
I did not fly for the Reds in this mission. Today, when the mission began, I saw three spit2a in flight.

With great respect to you Mr.X. I've rechecked all red bases & can find no Spit2a's in the battle. I've check all sub-missions & there are only Ai Hurricane Mk1 fighters for red, so any 2a's are not Ai's. Best Spit a human can take is a 1a. Has anyone else been able to find the Spit2a on the map?

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-22-2012, 04:07
I was disappointed last night to spend three hours in ATAG at European prime time (7-10GMT) and never see the new mission. Any chance of taking any other missions out of the rotation to make it more likely we see the new one (and also get you more feedback)?

Yeah. Spent four hours (on and off) last night playing the Dunkirk Map.
I think that a 4 hour play period for one map is a bit much. 2 hours might be better...

risske
Nov-22-2012, 04:29
Aircraft kills/points are only counted when the plane crashes.

Salute, Salmo!
What if an enemy pilot made an outside-of-airfield forced landing? Although the plane wasn`t crashed to pieces it became unusable. I suppose in 1940 that case would have been listed as an "air kill".

Robo.
Nov-22-2012, 05:08
Mr.X is right, the Spitfire IIa was available on one of the RAF bases, Southend (over the Thames estuary). I wondered why everyone flew the E-1 to be honest, I only flew this mission once on Red side and didn't check what was available for LW.

He's also right about getting points - PK = no 'kill' if the other player hits refly he dissapeares mid-air. This also happens when the player bales out.

He's not right about the Mk.IIa guns, they were not jamming, same armament like Mk.Ia (a-wing), he got probably got it confused with Mk.Ib.

Great mission otherwise, I understand this is just teething problems and I wanted to report this to Salmo asap. Thanks for your work mate, it's very much appreciated!

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 05:52
Mr.X is right, the Spitfire IIa was available on one of the RAF bases, Southend (over the Thames estuary). I wondered why everyone flew the E-1 to be honest, I only flew this mission once on Red side and didn't check what was available for LW.

He's also right about getting points - PK = no 'kill' if the other player hits refly he dissapeares mid-air. This also happens when the player bales out.

He's not right about the Mk.IIa guns, they were not jamming, same armament like Mk.Ia (a-wing), he got probably got it confused with Mk.Ib.

Great mission otherwise, I understand this is just teething problems and I wanted to report this to Salmo asap. Thanks for your work mate, it's very much appreciated!

1. Thankyou Robo & Mr.X. I found one of the sub-missions was loading RAF Rochford with Spit11a along with a blue Stuka mission.There now should be no SpitIIa's in the battle.

2. Added Me-109 E-4 & G50 to airfields inland France, behind the front line.

Post #3 updated

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-22-2012, 05:54
He's not right about the Mk.IIa guns, they were not jamming, same armament like Mk.Ia (a-wing), he got probably got it confused with Mk.Ib.


Correct, it was the early cannon equipped spitfires that had terrible gun jamming problems. The Cannon spits are not even in the game.

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 07:24
More goodies added. When will the fun ever end?

Airfield command modeling.
Added a very simplied airfield command/defence model. Blue & Red airfield commanders now monitor enemy aircraft movements around their airfields. Commanders will order-in additional AA defence units if their airfield is subjected to frequent attacks. This means that any frequently attacked airfield will tend to increase the number of AA units around it's perimeter over time. This is dynamic, if the enemy moves to attack a different airfield, then that airfield will increase it's defences over time.

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-22-2012, 07:38
Thank you for taking the time to answer everyone!


Deacon - As an aside, shot down a 109...set it on fire, pilot killed...no credit
I presume you got no points for the aircraft, but were awarded an AiPerson (aircrew) kill. Is it possible the pilot respawned before the aircraft crashed?

The pilot respawned before the crash, no points for the aircraft, no aircrew points...nothing.





1. Thankyou Robo & Mr.X. I found one of the sub-missions was loading RAF Rochford with Spit11a along with a blue Stuka mission.There now should be no SpitIIa's in the battle.

2. Added Me-109 E-4 & G50 to airfields inland France, behind the front line.


Sorry Sal, I know you're dealing with a lot of questions and answers, but why ADD the E-4 yet REMOVE the IIa? For balance should it not be either add the E-4 OR remove the IIa?

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 07:45
The historical info I have says that many LW units had E-4 conversions by the time BOB started. Am I wrong? happy to change again.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-22-2012, 08:19
The historical info I have says that many LW units had E-4 conversions by the time BOB started. Am I wrong? happy to change again.

This depends on when you think the BoB "started".

Certainly there were many (if not a majority) E4s in service by the end of August 1940.
I think it is fair to have a spawn for E4s.

MK.Mr.X
Nov-22-2012, 09:19
He's not right about the Mk.IIa guns, they were not jamming, same armament like Mk.Ia (a-wing), he got probably got it confused with Mk.Ib.
I agree. Confused.
Spit2a, in experienced hands, it's a killer!.:lecture:

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-22-2012, 10:58
Just my 2 cents: :D

1) 109E4's should be in

2) Spitfire 2a's should be out (unless we're at the final stages of the BoB)

3) Hurricane MK1 100 octane (Rotol) and Spitfire 1a 100 octanes in a numerical ratio of 2:1 respectively should be the predominant RAF fighters throughout the BoB. Our friend Crumpp was inundated over at 1C with over 1000 posts of documents proving it, although he still denied it right up to when he got banned! LOL

4) Even if we're stuck with Tiger Moths with a Webley .455 revolver on a lanyard, this is still a masterful mission, Salmo! :salute:

Catseye
Nov-22-2012, 12:15
Thank you for taking the time to answer everyone!

The pilot respawned before the crash, no points for the aircraft, no aircrew points...nothing.


I have no full understanding of the programming capabilities of this Map nor the ATAG server and can appreciate the difficulties on both sides to get it all going smoothly.

My question, although simple, is: Is it possible to program that a player who exits before their aircraft crashes be prevented from rejoining for at least 10 extra minutes? . . . . . or, that the players tally be reduced to 0 points and they have to start all over again. . . ... . or if they do it for 3 times in a row, they cannot re-enter the server for the next 24 hrs.?

I think that back in the day of IL2 on Spits vs. 109's (I think), that points were not awarded for that sortie if you did not land your plane. I like this one as it forces the pilot to return to base at all costs to receive awards. Also, all pilot tallies for that mission sortie were re-set to 0. (No points for a dead pilot.) This I believe, is the most effective one of all for many, many reasons!


Just wondering.


Cheers

AllMattersFecal
Nov-22-2012, 12:47
Don't want to start the famous CloD FMs discussion, but historical availability of aircraft is kind of moot when the aircraft are so badly under modeled. In terms of historical accuracy/in-game performance, the text names of aircraft will be historically correct, but the performance and gameplay will be far from it if the IIa isn't included (and not even still). This is all in the name of FMs, of course...other realistic/historic facts not withstanding (can only simulate so much in a game).

In any case, the mission is exceptional. I hope to see A LOT more of it!

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-22-2012, 12:52
Hi Cats,

Personally I prefer your second option (all points returned to zero). In speaking to a fellow Red pilot I learned he had taken a certain amount of abuse from an opposing pilot who had just PK'd him for exiting his now-dead plane before it crashed, thus robbing the incensed opponent of a human kill. According to the Red pilot, he checked via F2 that his plane remained perfectly trimmed out with a full tank of gas. He was looking at the best part of two hours before his plane crashed! This has happened to me a number of times where it has taken forever for my trimmed out plane, with me as a dead pilot has crashed.

So, it makes sense to cause the exiting pilot to lose his points, but it seems harsh to keep him strapped into his Marie Celeste plane for an inordinate time.

Yes, points are important. We all like to earn them and we'd hate to lose them. Losing them would likely prevent the capricious exiting of planes when bested by an opponent, but still give a reasonable choice for the PK'd unfortunate.

Roblex
Nov-22-2012, 14:01
Yeah. Spent four hours (on and off) last night playing the Dunkirk Map.
I think that a 4 hour play period for one map is a bit much. 2 hours might be better...

What he said :ind:

Catseye
Nov-22-2012, 14:24
Hi Cats,

Personally I prefer your second option (all points returned to zero). In speaking to a fellow Red pilot I learned he had taken a certain amount of abuse from an opposing pilot who had just PK'd him for exiting his now-dead plane before it crashed, thus robbing the incensed opponent of a human kill. According to the Red pilot, he checked via F2 that his plane remained perfectly trimmed out with a full tank of gas. He was looking at the best part of two hours before his plane crashed! This has happened to me a number of times where it has taken forever for my trimmed out plane, with me as a dead pilot has crashed.

So, it makes sense to cause the exiting pilot to lose his points, but it seems harsh to keep him strapped into his Marie Celeste plane for an inordinate time.

Yes, points are important. We all like to earn them and we'd hate to lose them. Losing them would likely prevent the capricious exiting of planes when bested by an opponent, but still give a reasonable choice for the PK'd unfortunate.

Hey Snapper,
I like that one and the last one - gotta land to make things count.

I lean towards the last one because it constrains pilots into making astute choices before engaging rather than like some, just plowing in and straffing airfields, head-on passes, dogfight mayhem and others. Creates more opportunities for conforming to the spirit of the mission map and the intentions of the programmer. Gotta bring the bird home to make that sortie's kills count.

All in all, good things are certainly coming into place.

Cheers

Roblex
Nov-22-2012, 14:59
I think that back in the day of IL2 on Spits vs. 109's (I think), that points were not awarded for that sortie if you did not land your plane. I like this one as it forces the pilot to return to base at all costs to receive awards. Also, all pilot tallies for that mission sortie were re-set to 0. (No points for a dead pilot.) This I believe, is the most effective one of all for many, many reasons!


Just wondering.


Cheers

I believe that you did get partial points for a crash landing or a bail in friendly territory. It's probably not possible with the scripts but it would be nice if the further you landed from a friendly field, the longer it was before you could launch again. Oleg should have modelled the pilot and made him run or swim home :)

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-22-2012, 15:19
Yeah. Spent four hours (on and off) last night playing the Dunkirk Map.
I think that a 4 hour play period for one map is a bit much. 2 hours might be better...

I will have a gander at it tomorrow. I just need to fix it myself and stop taking changes from untested versions.

CIA_Panteramutt
Nov-22-2012, 16:47
I think that back in the day of IL2 on Spits vs. 109's (I think), that points were not awarded for that sortie if you did not land your plane. I like this one as it forces the pilot to return to base at all costs to receive awards. Also, all pilot tallies for that mission sortie were re-set to 0. (No points for a dead pilot.) This I believe, is the most effective one of all for many, many reasons!
Just wondering.
Cheers

Spits vs 109s was:
- zero points for death or capture behind enemy lines (though sometimes you'd escape, if you managed to get close to the front)
- 50% for bail out or ditch on friendly ground
-100% for landing w/o incurring more damage than you had

WarClouds, for awhile, also had a 100 pnt (=1 kill) bonus for returning to base w/o more damage incurred. They also had a 3-death 5-min freeze kick to keep suicidal types out.

This mission is great for PST zone evenings, when there is rarely more than 6-10 pilots. This and the Dunkirk mission are much more enjoyable in this quiet slot.


S!

Salmo
Nov-22-2012, 22:38
Catseye - Is it possible to program that a player who exits before their aircraft crashes be prevented from rejoining for at least 10 extra minutes?
Yes, but it may be hard to distinguish between a player who deliberately exits the game and one who has an accidental (internet issue) disco.

Catseye - or, that the players tally be reduced to 0 points and they have to start all over again.
Yes

Catseye - or if they do it for 3 times in a row, they cannot re-enter the server for the next 24 hrs.?
Yes, for a given mission.

ATAG_Snapper et. al. - regarding players leaving game after being killed or respawning before their aircraft crashes & is counted as points.
The game only recognises killed actors (any moving object like a plane, AiPerson, human player, vehicle, ship etc) when they die. The problem is that a human pilot can die, but the plane does not 'die' until is crashes, thus aircraft kills are not counted if a pilot leaves the aircraft before the plane crashes. I'm thinking of ways to overcome this issues, but it may take some time.

Roblex
Nov-23-2012, 01:15
More goodies added. When will the fun ever end?

Airfield command modeling.
Added a very simplied airfield command/defence model. Blue & Red airfield commanders now monitor enemy aircraft movements around their airfields. Commanders will order-in additional AA defence units if their airfield is subjected to frequent attacks. This means that any frequently attacked airfield will tend to increase the number of AA units around it's perimeter over time. This is dynamic, if the enemy moves to attack a different airfield, then that airfield will increase it's defences over time.

I may be nothing to do with the change but last night I took off from Manston while it was being vulched and :-

1) The AA was more danger to me than them as the flack was exploding between 0 & ten feet all over the field constantly. It was like being under an arty barrage - shrapnel whistling past and explosions on the ground all round.
2) My framerates which are normally fine went into slideshow mode with pauses every few seconds.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-23-2012, 02:06
1. Thankyou Robo & Mr.X. I found one of the sub-missions was loading RAF Rochford with Spit11a along with a blue Stuka mission.There now should be no SpitIIa's in the battle.

2. Added Me-109 E-4 & G50 to airfields inland France, behind the front line.

Post #3 updated

Now we have a completely unbalanced setup.

In fact the Spit IIA is the only plane which can actually compete with the 109's on even terms at most altitudes. Above 10,000 ft, neither the Spit IA 100 octane or the Hurricane 100 octane is match for any 109. And the 87 octane version Spit I's, IA's, Hurri I's and Rotols are inferior under 10,000 ft.

This is quite obvious by the kill ratios between fighter aircraft, the Blue side is killing at a 4-1 ratio. Putting a lot of AI bombers up as a sop to the Allied side does not give a competitive server.

ALL aircraft should be available.

Salmo
Nov-23-2012, 02:20
I may be nothing to do with the change but last night I took off from Manston while it was being vulched and :-

1) The AA was more danger to me than them as the flack was exploding between 0 & ten feet all over the field constantly. It was like being under an arty barrage - shrapnel whistling past and explosions on the ground all round.
2) My framerates which are normally fine went into slideshow mode with pauses every few seconds.

1. There is one heavy AA battery between Manston & Ramsgate airfields, and two 20inch CWT AA guns on the end of Ramsgate harbour pier. Three AA pieces around manston in total at start of battle.
2. Is it possible there was an enemy aircraft landed or crash-landed (but not killed) on the field? That might explain the AA guns firing at such low altitude.
3. The airfield defence model is adding just one AA piece to one airfield (the mosted buzzed airfield, red or blue) perimeter every 10 minutes. We will need to keep an eye on this simple model & see if the timing of new AA spawning needs adjustment.

Salmo
Nov-23-2012, 02:50
Now we have a completely unbalanced setup.

In fact the Spit IIA is the only plane which can actually compete with the 109's on even terms at most altitudes. Above 10,000 ft, neither the Spit IA 100 octane or the Hurricane 100 octane is match for any 109. And the 87 octane version Spit I's, IA's, Hurri I's and Rotols are inferior under 10,000 ft. This is quite obvious by the kill ratios between fighter aircraft, the Blue side is killing at a 4-1 ratio. <snip>

You may have missed my previous post where I indicated that I'm not interested in a opening a discussion about balancing planesets based on the game's current FM's pro & cons. This issue has been canvased extensively elsewhere. My intention is to have a planeset that represents the mid-1940, start of BOB period.

It is possible to play with the relative available numbers of planes, or when during the battle they might become available etc by scripting, so if you feel the E-4 is 'too good' for you, then perhaps you could suggest a methodolgy where we can simulate limited LW staffels converting their E-1's to E-4 types. Suggestions are always welcome. At the moment we have these planes, with no limitions on relative numbers at this time.

Bf108 (recon Ai)
Bf-109 E-1
Bf-109 E-3
Do17 Z-1
He111 H-2
Ju87 B-2
Fw200 Condor (recon Ai)
G50
Bf110 C-4
Ju88 A-1

Hurricane Mk1
Hurricaine Mk1 100oct
Spitfire Mk1
Spitfire Mk1a
Spitfire Mk1 100oct
Blenheim Mk1
Sunderland (recon Ai)

AllMattersFecal
Nov-23-2012, 02:52
Now we have a completely unbalanced setup.

In fact the Spit IIA is the only plane which can actually compete with the 109's on even terms at most altitudes. Above 10,000 ft, neither the Spit IA 100 octane or the Hurricane 100 octane is match for any 109. And the 87 octane version Spit I's, IA's, Hurri I's and Rotols are inferior under 10,000 ft.

This is quite obvious by the kill ratios between fighter aircraft, the Blue side is killing at a 4-1 ratio. Putting a lot of AI bombers up as a sop to the Allied side does not give a competitive server.

ALL aircraft should be available.

+1

I'm all for historical accuracy, I love it, but the game is not historically accurate, sadly.

I'm a hurricane 100 pilot, in any case, so I'm pretty happy...but it would behoove gameplay to see a somewhat equal playing field for all.

Please note, Salmo, this is just feedback, no ill tones implied. I love the mission and I think your work is exceptional.

Salmo
Nov-23-2012, 03:11
Now we have a completely unbalanced setup. <snip> This is quite obvious by the kill ratios between fighter aircraft, the Blue side is killing at a 4-1 ratio. Putting a lot of AI bombers up as a sop to the Allied side does not give a competitive server. ALL aircraft should be available.

Now we have a completely unbalanced setup.
Yes! That's intentional, at least as far as planeset is concerned. It's far too simplistic to think that you need two equal plane types to balance a mission. The 'unbalance' planeset is mitigated in other ways that give red an advantage. eg. Blue have to fly further; blue has to fly back over the channel, if they crash in the channel they give plane-points to red, whereas red has a good chance of landing at a forward airfield in south England; blue has more targets to hit to get the higher point value objects; red radar is far superior to the blue radar modeling.

Allow me to demontrate that I actually think about mission balance. Last time the mission ran, red won the battle 3,000 points to blue 2,100 points, with roughly equal numbers of red & blue players at any one time. Red lost 22 fighters & 63 bombers & blue lost 77 fighters & 38 bombers. That's a total aircraft loss of 85 red to 105 blue. The additional 20 planes lost by blue represent about 600 additional points scored by red for killing aircraft which approximately equates to 1 radar station being bombed. That means that blue has to destroy 1 radar station just to keep up with red point accumulation. Let me highlight that for you again. Red lost 22 fighters and blue lost 77 fighters. How is this unfair to red?

This is quite obvious by the kill ratios between fighter aircraft
Presumably you're sighting kill ratios from server stats. I hope I've demonstated that kill ratios in my mission are different. I will continue to monitor the situation for "mission balance" ie. An equal liklihood of either side winning the battle, not necessarily an equal liklihood of one plane type downing another type.

Ai Bomber as a sop to Alllies
I'm guessing you haven't made many missions for IL2-1946 or for COD? Mission builders should take into account a large number of factors in order to produce missions that players enjoy. Flying time to targets, planesets, target types, waypoint paths/altitudes, weather, historical time periods, anticipated number of players & time needed to achieve objectives, relative value of targets etc. I've seen far too many missions that fail to take these kinds of factors into account.

With this in mind, the LW Ai bombers are in the mission not as a sop to the allies. They are there to serve a number of specific puposes: (1) Provide some interest to red players if blue player numbers are low. (2) provide points for red to score so they can meet their win objective (3,000 points) without having to score all their points by shooting down human players; remembering of course that blue can score points by BOTH shooting down red human planes AND bombing the radar stations. So 500 points to blue for destroying a radar station needs to be balanced by a fair opportunity for red to get 500 points in the time it would take blue to get their 500 points.

... does not give a competitive server
Do you want a straight-out dogfight between two 'equal' plane types or do you want a interesting mission with RL chances of events that balances the liklihood of either side winning a battle? I favour the latter. If you think your red plane is outmatched, get on TS & fly with someone. Better still, fly with several 'someones' & use your radar to advantage. This mission is much more complex than the ho-hum dogfights you're probably used to. Work out how to score points for your army while minimising points lost by your army. You can help win the battle in many different ways.

ALL aircraft should be available
I've seen far too many boring missions where the mission builder has plonked down a base & made all plane types available in unlimited numbers with little or no consideration of what planes were available at the time, or how this will affect gameplay. This inevitably leads to players taking their favorite plane, which is usually the 'best' plane available. That's why we see missions with virtually everyone flying either a spit2a or a Me-109 E-4. This is not how I build missions.

Roblex
Nov-23-2012, 03:34
1. There is one heavy AA battery between Manston & Ramsgate airfields, and two 20inch CWT AA guns on the end of Ramsgate harbour pier. Three AA pieces around manston in total at start of battle.
2. Is it possible there was an enemy aircraft landed or crash-landed (but not killed) on the field? That might explain the AA guns firing at such low altitude.
3. The airfield defence model is adding just one AA piece to one airfield (the mosted buzzed airfield, red or blue) perimeter every 10 minutes. We will need to keep an eye on this simple model & see if the timing of new AA spawning needs adjustment.

Odd. I could hear the shrapnel whistling past as I taxied out of the hangar (with canopy open) and there were grey explosions on the ground as close as three metres away and low black explosions over the main field then when I taxied out to the runway I was still getting grey explosions on the ground a few metres from my aircraft. I could not see any enemy aircraft on the ground or flying low across the field so I was a bit baffled what they were shooting at. Is it possible they were shooting at someone very low a long way out from the field and the shots were landing short?

AllMattersFecal
Nov-23-2012, 04:07
Great point, Salmo. When you put it that way it makes perfect sense.

Salmo
Nov-23-2012, 04:15
Odd. <snip> Is it possible they were shooting at someone very low a long way out from the field and the shots were landing short?
It's possible the way COD flak is modeled. I don't have an explanation for what you're describing. Can you monitor the situation & advise if this issue persists.

Hey wait a minute! There's no red base at Manston in my mission! Sure it was Manston?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-23-2012, 04:20
Now we have a completely unbalanced setup.
Yes! That's intentional, at least as far as planeset is concerned. It's far too simplistic to think that you need two equal plane types to balance a mission. The 'unbalance' planeset is mitigated in other ways that give red an advantage. eg. Blue have to fly further; blue has to fly back over the channel, if they crash in the channel they give plane-points to red; blue has more targets to hit to get the higher point value objects; red radar is far superior to the blue radar modeling.

Allow me to demontrate that I actually think about mission balance. Last time the mission ran, red won the battle 3,000 points to blue 2,100 points, with roughly equal numbers of red & blue players at any one time. Red lost 22 fighters & 63 bombers & blue lost 77 fighters & 38 bombers. That's a total aircraft loss of 85 red to 105 blue. The additional 20 planes lost by blue represent about 600 additional points scored by red for killing aircraft which approximately equates to saving 1 radar station from being bombed. Let me highlight that for you again. Red lost 22 fighters and blue lost 77 fighters. How is this unfair to red?

Ai Bomber as a sop to Alllies
I'm guessing you haven't made many missions for IL2-1946 or for COD? Mission builders should take into account a large number of factors in order to produce missions that players enjoy. Flying time to targets, planesets, target types, waypoint paths/altitudes, weather, historical time periods, anticipated number of players & time needed to achieve objectives, relative value of targets etc. I've seen far too many missions that fail to take these kinds of factors into account.

With this in mind, the LW Ai bombers are in the mission not as a sop to the allies. They are there to serve a number of specific puposes: (1) Provide some interest to red players if blue player numbers are low. (2) provide points for red to score so they can meet their win objective (3,000 points) without having to score all their points by shooting down human players; remembering of course that blue can score points by BOTH shooting down red human planes AND bombing the radar stations. So 500 points to blue for destroying a radar station needs to be balanced by a fair opportunity for red to get 500 points in the time it would take blue to get their 500 points.

... does not give a competitive server
Do you want a straight-out dogfight between two 'equal' plane types or do you want a interesting mission with RL chances of events that balances the liklihood of either side winning a battle? I favour the latter. If you think your red plane is outmatched, get on TS & fly with someone. Better still, fly with several 'someones' & use your radar to advantage. This mission is much more complex than the ho-hum dogfights you're probably used to. Work out how to score points for your army while minimising points lost by your army. You can help win the battle in many different ways.

ALL aircraft should be available
I've seen far too many boring missions where the mission builder has plonked down a base & made all plane types available in unlimited numbers with little or no consideration of what planes were available at the time, or how this will affect gameplay. This inevitably leads to players taking their favorite plane, which is usually the 'best' plane available. That's why we see missions with virtually everyone flying either a spit2a or a Me-109 E-4. This is not how I build missions.

It appears I have misunderstood your loss figures, I thought it was 77 red fighters lost to 22 blue. Not sure how that happened, as the 109E1 vs the 87 octane British planes is a clear advantage blue. In my opinion the 87 octane British planes are not competitive.

As far as how many server missions I have built... I built multiple SCORCHED EARTH 10 week campaigns in IL-2 1946, as well as many many dogfight server setups. My Squad was the originator of the SCORCHED EARTH concept.

As far as adhering to historically accurate planesets: First of all, as I have mentioned, the RAF converted to 100 octane starting in March of 1940, by June all RAF Squadrons were using that fuel. There were no 87 octane aircraft in No. 10, 11 and 12 Groups by June of 1940. So your setup is not historical. 2nd, the fact is, historical aircraft setups only work if the planes perform to their historical specifications. CoD aircraft do not.

But hey, it's your server design.

Salmo
Nov-23-2012, 04:43
It appears I have misunderstood your loss figures, I thought it was 77 red fighters lost to 22 blue. Not sure how that happened, as the 109E1 vs the 87 octane British planes is a clear advantage blue. In my opinion the 87 octane British planes are not competitive.
I suspect the chain radars & observer corp are giving an advantage to the allies that may account for their success. Let's monitor the mission as it runs a few more times & (1) tweak the radar modelling & (2) see if blue devise strategies to overcome this advantage.


As far as how many server missions I have built... I built multiple SCORCHED EARTH 10 week campaigns in IL-2 1946, as well as many many dogfight server setups. My Squad was the originator of the SCORCHED EARTH concept.
Excellent. I value your feedback & assistance. My aim is to improve the code & modelling over time to develop something like SEOW or IL2WARS.


As far as adhering to historically accurate planesets: First of all, as I have mentioned, the RAF converted to 100 octane starting in March of 1940, by June all RAF Squadrons were using that fuel. There were no 87 octane aircraft in No. 10, 11 and 12 Groups by June of 1940. So your setup is not historical. 2nd, the fact is, historical aircraft setups only work if the planes perform to their historical specifications. CoD aircraft do not. But hey, it's your server design.
So do you think there is a need to remove all 87oct planes? I've modeled 87oct closer to the battle & 100oct a little further away, just to make pilots think about whether to take the 100oct or not. But to be more realistic, a model should be developed where squadron change from 87oct planes to 100oct planes at their spawn points/bases over time.

Roblex
Nov-23-2012, 08:51
It's possible the way COD flak is modeled. I don't have an explanation for what you're describing. Can you monitor the situation & advise if this issue persists.

Hey wait a minute! There's no red base at Manston in my mission! Sure it was Manston?


Oh dear. It would seem I still have not managed to see your new map yet despite spending 5 hours online in the last few days which supports my other request to do something about making it appear more often :)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-23-2012, 10:24
So do you think there is a need to remove all 87oct planes? I've modeled 87oct closer to the battle & 100oct a little further away, just to make pilots think about whether to take the 100oct or not. But to be more realistic, a model should be developed where squadron change from 87oct planes to 100oct planes at their spawn points/bases over time.

The earliest recorded combat inference I can find for 100 Octane Hurricanes is 15 May 1940, from No.1 Squadron. And another more explicit report of its use is from two days later (17 May from 17 Squadron. )

For spitfires the first record I can find of its use in combat is from 19 Squadron.

The problem is, I cannot find any EXPLICIT mention of use of 87 octane throughout the period. But that does NOT mean it was not being used by some units.

I have started a database of ALL RAF fighter squadrons operating in the BoB. I have been slowly going through historical records to find the first verifiable use of 100 octane. However, to date of the 67 squadrons operating (those that have official battle honours in spits, huris, beufighters, blenheims or battles) I only have 28 squads for which I can find strong evidence (or proof) of use of 100 octane before the end of the BoB.

I think, for the sake of being good custodians of history (even if the game developers are not) then we should have 87 octane units in the mission.

Little_D
Nov-23-2012, 11:47
Hi Salamo,

i hope i can fly this mission one day :), in the moment when i get on the server there is all time a other mission running :(
but from what i read it sounds like a great mission, so i hope i will get someday at the right time on the server to fly your mission.

short info to the E4 on this map makes the map unbalanced:
what some red pilots forgot all the time is, that even the germans had fieldmodifications. this means most E3 where converted to the 20mm MG/FF with mining bullets in the last days off the battle of france and in the weeks before the eagle day start. We have no E3 with converted 20mm MG/FF and mining bullets and there is no realy a different in FM between the E1, E3 and E4, so the E4 is ok in my eys.

but its your mission and ATAG`s server so you and ATAG have to decide it.

regards

Little_D

Dutch
Nov-23-2012, 12:10
Oh No. Not the octane argument again.......:D

I haven't had a chance to sample Salmo's mission as yet but am hoping to do so over the weekend.

But I really don't think a protracted octane debate will help. An easier solution is to keep the 100octs at the front line forward stations, and 87oct in the rearward stations rather than the other way around. This has a historical 'flavour', because it would be the front line stations which got the 100oct first (even though I'd make an argument in a different thread that all operational squadrons had it by June/July 1940 :D ) but it also gives the 87oct a/c a chance to obtain a height advantage to help compensate for lack of outright power......

I have no objections to the E4, and as long as the 100oct Ia and Hurri are in there, don't object to the lack of IIa either.

But in anticipation, thanks for your unbelievable efforts Salmo, very much appreciated! :dthumb:

Catseye
Nov-23-2012, 13:02
So do you think there is a need to remove all 87oct planes? I've modeled 87oct closer to the battle & 100oct a little further away, just to make pilots think about whether to take the 100oct or not. But to be more realistic, a model should be developed where squadron change from 87oct planes to 100oct planes at their spawn points/bases over time.

I would not be in favour of choking off the 87 Octane aircraft.

Not that it would be historically accurate, but rather because of the limitations placed upon aircraft performance in this SIM.

ie., I love to fly the Spit l at altitude. It is more than competitive enough against the existing plane-set. (except for the E4). Not that I want to continue with discussion on plane sets as I accept the explanation that you have given regarding a holistic approach to the map.

At this time, I think you are on the correct approach and only further monitoring will determine any tweaks required.

Good stuff!

Salmo
Nov-23-2012, 13:25
Oh No. Not the octane argument again.......:D <snip>

Yep, it's raised it's ugly head again. No matter how much you flog this dead horse it still wants to get get up & haunt you. So how about this for a model to pseudo-simuate aircraft upgrades around the beginning of BOB.

1. Start battle with red bases having 87oct only Spits & Hurri's.
2. Start battle with blue bases having Bf109 E-1's only.
3. Over time (say every 30 minutes) a random red base has it's Spit or Hurri upgraded to 100oct.
4. Over time (say every 30 minutes) a random blue base has it's E-1's upgraded to E-4's.

This is doable via script, and might approximate various squadrons/staffels getting upgrades at the BOB progressed.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-23-2012, 13:57
The earliest recorded combat inference I can find for 100 Octane Hurricanes is 15 May 1940, from No.1 Squadron. And another more explicit report of its use is from two days later (17 May from 17 Squadron. )

For spitfires the first record I can find of its use in combat is from 19 Squadron.

The problem is, I cannot find any EXPLICIT mention of use of 87 octane throughout the period. But that does NOT mean it was not being used by some units.

I have started a database of ALL RAF fighter squadrons operating in the BoB. I have been slowly going through historical records to find the first verifiable use of 100 octane. However, to date of the 67 squadrons operating (those that have official battle honours in spits, huris, beufighters, blenheims or battles) I only have 28 squads for which I can find strong evidence (or proof) of use of 100 octane before the end of the BoB.

I think, for the sake of being good custodians of history (even if the game developers are not) then we should have 87 octane units in the mission.

Salute

You need to do more research.

The facts re. 100 octane in particular Squadrons and Stations I will detail in this and my next post, below.

Note the real way to gauge 100 octane use is by noting the Squadrons which are using it, and then noting the fields they are based at. All fields which Squadrons using 100 octane are based must have full supply of 100 octane, and in these cases, at all fields where 100 octane was available, RAF Fighter Command had ordered that 87 octane be removed, or limited to one small tank for aircraft such as the Wellington or others making emergency landings.

First approval for Spitfires using 100 octane is 1938:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/100-octane/24sept38-spitfire-100oct-approval.jpg

Then the first stations assigned to be provided with fuel:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/100-octane/6dec38-100octanefuel.jpg

Note and this is VERY IMPORTANT.

Look at the following link, which also notes that Hurricanes and Defiants are being converted:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/100-octane/12dec39-100octane-issue.pdf

Reading on the second page we see the directive indicates that all stations where 100 octane fuel is provided, are to have all tanks assigned to 100 octane permanently filled.

"When a tank in the installation becomes empty, it is to be refilled with 100 octane fuel..."

That means once a station is converted to provide 100 octane, it remains on stock. It does not go back to 87 octane.

So we can deduce from this quite clearly, that once a Squadron reports the use of 100 octane, we can then assume that the station it was based at will permanently be converted to 100 octane. And all further stations the same 100 octane converted Squadron is based at are also going to be provided with 100 octane.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-23-2012, 14:00
Salute

Continuing:

Squadron List

Below is a list of Squadrons confirmed to have used 100 octane, as well as the fields they were based at during the course of the BoB. All fields known 100 octane converted Squadrons were based at must have had permanent conversion to 100 octane as noted in the memo above:


Pre-March 1940 Squadrons with 100 octane conversion:

No. 111 Squadron Hurricane Feb. 15th at Drem Scotland

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/111-15feb40-100-octane.jpg

Battle of Britain home Stations
Croydon 4 June 1940
Debden 19 August 1940
Croydon 3 September 1940
Drem 8 September 1940

No. 602 Squadron Spitfire Feb. 16th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/602-16feb40-100octane.jpg

Stations
Drem 28 May 1940
Westhampnett 13 August 1940

No. 151 Squadron Hurricane Feb. 16th North Weald

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/151-orb-16feb40.jpg

Stations
North Weald 20 May 1940
Stapleford Tawney 29 August 1940
Digby 1 September 1940

No. 74 Squadron Spitfire March 15th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no74-100oct.jpg

Stations
Hornchurch 25 June 1940
Wittering 14 August 1940
Kirton-in-Lindsey 21 August 1940
Coltishall 9 September 1940
Biggin Hill 15 October 1940

No. 611 Squadron Spitfire March 20th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no611-100oct.jpg

Stations
Digby 10 October 1939

No. 602 Squadron Spitfire with 100 octane markings, in pre-BoB camo

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/602sqdn-spitfire1-100octane.jpg

Stations
Drem 28 May 1940
Westhampnett 13 August 1940

No. 609 Squadron Spitfire training film showing Squadron aircraft with 100 octane markings in pre-Battle camo:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/609sqdn-100oct-training-film.pdf

Stations
Northolt 19 May 1940
Middle Wallop 5 July 1940

No. 603 Squadron Spitfire May 15th

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/603-ross-pg125.jpg

Stations
Turnhouse 5 May 1940
Hornchurch 27 August 1940



Fall of France 100 octane usage by Hurricane Squadrons based in France:

Note this is particularly important. If RAF Fighter Command was able to overcome the difficulty of shipping 100 octane fuel to France, to all the various fields which they were based at, all during the retreat, it tells us they had no shortage of 100 octane fuel, and fields in England were well supplied.

Combat Reports and Diaries mentioning the use of +12 boost:

No. 56th Squadron May 9th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/56sqdn-9may40.jpg

Stations
North Weald 4 June 1940
Boscombe Down 1 September 1940

No. 85 Squadron May 10th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/85-oliver-10may40.jpg

Stations

Debden 22 May 1940
Croydon 19 August 1940
Castle Camps 3 September 1940
Church Fenton 5 September 1940
Kirton-in-Lindsey 23 October 1940

No. 1 Squadron May 11th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/richey-pg76.jpg

Stations
Wick 23rd May 1940
Tangmere 23 June 1940
Northolt 1 August 1940
Wittering 9 September 1940

No. 73 Squadron May 15th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/monks-pg98.jpg

Stations
Church Fenton 18 June 1940
Castle Camps 5 September 1940

No. 87 Squadron May 15th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/87-beamont-15may40.jpg

Stations
Church Fenton 26 May 1940
Exeter 5 July 1940

No. 17 Squadron May 18th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/17-adye-18may40.pdf

Stations:
Debden 19 June 1940
Tangmere 19 August 1940
Debden 2 September 1940
Martlesham Heath 8 October 1940

No. 87 Squadron May 18th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/87-gleed-18may40.jpg

Stations
Church Fenton 26 May 1940
Exeter 5 July 1940

No. 79 Squadron May 20th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/79-pearce-20may40.jpg

Stations
Biggin Hill 5 June 1940
Hawkinge 2 July 1940
Sealand 11 July 1940
Acklington 13 July 1940
Biggin Hill 27 August 1940
Pembrey 8 September 1940



Dunkirk Evacuation and BoB Combat Reports and Diaries (from Squadrons based in Britain):

No. 151 Squadron May 18th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/donaldson-151sqdn-18may40.pdf

Stations
North Weald 20 May 1940
Stapleford Tawney 29 August 1940
Digby 1 September 1940

No. 19, No. 54, No. 74 Squadron Spitfire May 24th, 25th, 26th.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/100-octane/sarkar-spitfire.pdf

No. 19th Squadron Stations:

Fowlmere 25 January 1940
Duxford 3 July 1940
Fowlmere 24 July 1940
Duxford 30 October 1940

No. 54 Squadron Stations:

Rochford 25 June 1940
Hornchurch 24 July 1940
Catterick 28 July 1940
Hornchurch 8 August 1940
Catterick 3 September 1940

No. 74 Squadron Stations:

Hornchurch 25 June 1940
Wittering 14 August 1940
Kirton-in-Lindsey 21 August 1940
Coltishall 9 September 1940
Biggin Hill 15 October 1940


No. 245 Squadron Hurricane May 28th Hawkinge, landed Kenley. (no problem with fueling at Kenley mentioned)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/245-mcglashan-28may40.jpg

Stations
Hawkinge May 15th
Aldergrove 20 July

No. 229 Squadron Hurricane May 29th

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/229-simpson-29may40.jpg

Stations:
Wittering 26 June 1940
Northolt 9 September 1940

No. 43 Squadron Hurricane June 1st:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/43-ottewill-1june40.pdf

Stations
Tangmere 31 May 1940
Northolt (D) 23 July 1940 to 1 August 1940
Usworth 8 September 1940

No. 611 Squadron Spitfire June 2nd:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/611-brown-2june40.jpg

(landed at Southend field, no problems with refueling)

Stations
Digby 10 October 1939

No. 145 Squadron Hurricane, July 1st:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/145-dutton-1july40.pdf

Stations:
Tangmere 10 May 1940
Westhampnett 31 July 1940
Drem 14 August 1940
Dyce 31 August 1940
Tangmere 9 October 1940

No. 41 Squadron Spitfire July 28th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/webster-28-7-40.jpg

Stations
Catterick 8 June 1940
Hornchurch 26 July 1940
Catterick 8 August 1940
Hornchurch 3 September 1940

No. 54 Squadron Spitfire Aug. 15th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/gribble-12lbs.jpg

Stations
Rochford 25 June 1940
Hornchurch 24 July 1940
Catterick 28 July 1940
Hornchurch 8 August 1940
Catterick 3 September 1940

No. 602 Squadron Spitfire Aug. 18th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/boyd-18-8-40.jpg

Stations
Drem 28 May 1940
Westhampnett 13 August 1940

No. 603 Squadron Spitfire Aug. 31st

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/berry-31-8-40.jpg

Stations
Turnhouse 5 May 1940
Hornchurch 27 August 1940

No. 249 Squadron Hurricane Sept 6th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/249-meaker-6sept40.jpg

Stations
Leconfield 18 May 1940
Church Fenton 8 July 1940
Boscombe Down 14 August 1940
North Weald 1 September 1940

No. 303 Polish Hurricane Squadron Sept 9th, reported by Johnny Kent, the Canadian Flight Leader.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/303-kent-9sept40.jpg

The presence of No. 303 Squadron on the confirmed list of RAF Squadrons using 100 octane is particularly revealing. No. 303 wasn’t even in existence in March of 1939. In fact, the ordinary pilots of No. 303 were Polish and Czech pilots who had been evacuated from France in May of 1940, and it wasn’t even expected to become operational during the period of the battle. It was at the bottom of any priority list. Yet this Squadron is clearly supplied with 100 octane fuel and it’s pilots are using +12 boost. For a non-operational foreign Squadron to receive supply of high octane fuel clearly indicates there was no shortage of supply.


Stations
Northolt 22 July 1940
Leconfield 11 October 1940

No. 72 Squadron Spitfire Sept 9th:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/elliott-9-9-40.jpg

Stations
Acklington 6 June 1940
Biggin Hill 31 August 1940
Croydon 1 September 1940
Biggin Hill 14 September 1940
Coltishall 13 October 1940
Matlask 30 October 1940

No. 501 Squadron Hurricane Oct. 5th:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/501-mckenzie-pg50.jpg

Stations
Croydon 21 June
Middle Wallop 4 July
Gravesend 25 July
Kenley 10 September


No. 605 Squadron Hurricane Oct. 7th


http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/605-mckeller-7oct40.pdf

Stations
Drem 28 May 1940
Croydon 7 September 1940


No. 234 Squadron:


P/O Bob Doe described his usual routine after being scrambled, whilst flying Spitfires with No. 234 Squadron out of Middle Wallop in August of 1940:

Once we were in the vicinity of the enemy, I would 'pull the plug', which was the release so that we could get extra boost…


No. 65 Squadron

Jeffrey Quill the famous Supermarine test pilot was assigned briefly to fly Spitfires in combat with No. 65 Squadron. Over Dunkirk in late May, he had to resort to using +12 boost. ( I do not have a link to this, but the excerpt from his diarty can be found in ‘Spitfire: A Test Pilot’s Story. London: Arrow Books. 1983’)

There were 54 RAF Squadrons equipped with Hurricanes or Spitfires which were operational during the BoB, the list above shows at least 55% of them used 100 octane fuel.

But the list of Squadrons we can determine to be using 100 octane was not limited to 30.


Fields known to be supplied with 100 octane fuel during the BoB:

Sector Fields were the most important and the largest fields in a Group area. They were where the senior commanding officers were based. The majority of the Squadrons belonging to a Group were based at sector fields, and often Squadrons which were based at a sector field would be sent out to a satellite field for the day, and return to the sector field at night. The supply chain and administration for satellite fields ran through the superior sector field.

No. 11 Group identified 100 octane supply:

All Sector Fields

Biggin Hill
Debden
Hornchurch
Kenley
Northolt
North Weald
Tangmere


No. 12 Group identified 100 octane supply:

ALL Sector Fields

Church Fenton
Digby
Duxford
Kirton-in-Lindsey
Wittering



No. 10 Group identified 100 octane supply:

1 of 2 Sector fields

Middle Wallop

(the other sector field in No. 10 Group was RAF Filton, which was only used by a single Squadron during the BoB, No. 504, and only after September 26th for that reason it was obviously a low priority)



No. 13 Group identified 100 octane supply:

ALL Sector Fields

Acklington
Dyce
Turnhouse
Usworth
Wick

The fact that all sector fields with the exception of one seldom used one were supplied with 100 octane is another clear indication the RAF converted to 100% high octane. Aircraft which were fueled at 100 octane sector fields had to be able to operate at all the satellite stations, and vice versa.

In addition, we know the following Satellite fields hosted Squadrons using 100 octane and therefore were supplied.

Drem
Westhampnett
Stapleford Tawney
Coltishall
Croydon
Boscombe Down
Castle Camps
Exeter
Martlesham Heath
Hawkinge
Sealand
Pembrey
Fowlmere
Rochford
Catterick
Aldergrove
Leconfield
Acklington
Matlask
Gravesend

From the known supply of 100 octane to Sector and Satellite fields, and the fact once a field was converted, it remained 100 octane, we can determine what other Squadrons were using 100 octane. A Squadron based at a 100 octane supplied field would be using 100 octane, there was no logic to doing otherwise.

No. 11 Group

Sector Fields

RAF Biggin Hill.
RAF Biggin Hill was home to the Biggin Hill Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 32 Squadron from 4 June 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 79 Squadron from 5 June 1940
* No 610 Squadron from 2 July 1940
* No 79 Squadron from 27 August 1940
* No 72 Squadron from 31 August 1940
* No 92 Squadron from 8 September 1940
* No 141 Squadron from 13 September to 18 September 1940
* No 72 Squadron from 14 September 1940
* No 74 Squadron from 15 October 1940

RAF Debden.
RAF Debden was home to the Debden Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 85 Squadron from 22 May 1940
* No 17 Squadron from 19 June 1940
* No 257 Squadron from 15 August 1940 {equipped with Hurricanes}
* No 601 Squadron from 19 August 1940
* No 111 Squadron from 19 August 1940
* No 17 Squadron from 2 September 1940
* No 25 Squadron from 8 October 1940 (No. 25 was equipped with Blenheim Mk 1F and Beaufighter nightfighters)

RAF Hornchurch.
RAF Hornchurch was home to the Hornchurch Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 65 Squadron from 5 June 1940
* No 74 Squadron from 25 June 1940
* No 54 Squadron from 24 July 1940
* No 41 Squadron from 26 July 1940
* No 54 Squadron from 8 August 1940
* No 266 Squadron from 14 August 1940 (equipped with Spitfires)
* No 600 Squadron from 22 August 1940 (equipped with Blenheim Nightfighters)
* No 264 Squadron from 22 August 1940 (equipped with Defiants)
* No 603 Squadron from 27 August 1940
* No 41 Squadron from 3 September 1940

RAF Kenley.
RAF Kenley was home to the Kenley Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 615 Squadron from 20 May 1940
* No 616 Squadron from 19 August 1940 (equipped with Spitfires)
* No 253 Squadron from 29 August 1940 {equipped with Hurricanes}
* No 66 Squadron from 3 September 1940 (equipped with Spitfires)
* No 501 Squadron from 10 September 1940
* No 253 Squadron from 16 September 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)

RAF Northolt.
RAF Northolt was home to the Northolt Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 609 Squadron from 19 May 1940
* No 257 Squadron from 4 July 1940
* No 303 Squadron from 22 July 1940
* No 43 Squadron from 23 July 1940 to 1 August 1940
* No 1 Squadron from 1 August 1940
* No 1 Squadron RCAF from Mid-August 1940
* No 615 Squadron from 10 October 1940
* No 302 Squadron from 11 October 1940 (Polish Squadron, equipped with Hurricanes)

RAF North Weald.
RAF North Weald was home to the North Weald Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 151 Squadron from 20 May 1940
* No 56 Squadron from 4 June 1940
* No 25 Squadron from 1 September 1940 (equipped with Blenheim and Beaufighter Nightfighters)
* No 249 Squadron from 1 September 1940
* No 257 Squadron from 8 October 1940

RAF Tangmere.
RAF Tangmere was home to the Tangmere Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 145 Squadron from 10 May 1940
* No 43 Squadron from 31 May 1940
* No 601 Squadron from 17 June 1940
* No 1 Squadron from 23 June 1940
* No 266 Squadron from 9 August 1940 (equipped with Spitfires)

* No 17 Squadron from 19 August 1940
* No 607 Squadron from 1 September 1940
* No 601 Squadron from 2 September 1940
* No 213 Squadron from 7 September 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 145 Squadron from 9 October 1940


Sector Airfields

RAF Church Fenton.
RAF Church Fenton was home to the Church Fenton Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 87 Squadron from 26 May 1940
* No 73 Squadron from 18 June 1940
* No 249 Squadron from 8 July 1940
* No 85 Squadron from 5 September 1940

RAF Digby.
RAF Digby was home to the Digby Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 46 Squadron from 13 June 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 29 Squadron from 27 June 1940 (equipped with Blenheim Nightfighters)
* No 46 Squadron from 19 August 1940
* No 151 Squadron from 1 September 1940
* No 611 Squadron from 10 October 1939

RAF Duxford.
RAF Duxford was home to the Duxford Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 264 Squadron from 10 May 1940 (equipped with Defiants)
* No 19 Squadron from 3 July 1940
* No 310 Squadron from 10 July 1940 (A Czech Squadron, equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 46 Squadron from 18 August 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 312 Squadron from 29 August 1940 (a Czech Squadron equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 242 Squadron from 26 October 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 19 Squadron from 30 October 1940

RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey.
RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey was home to the Kirton-in-Lindsey Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 222 Squadron from 4 June 1939 (equipped with Spitfires)
* No 253 Squadron from 24 May 1940 (equipped with Hurricanes)
* No 264 Squadron from 23 July 1940
* No 74 Squadron from 21 August 1940
* No 264 Squadron from 28 August 1940
* No 616 Squadron from 9 September 1940
* No 85 Squadron from 23 October 1940

RAF Wittering.
RAF Wittering was home to the Wittering Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 266 Squadron from 14 May 1940
* No 74 Squadron from 14 August 1940
* No 266 Squadron from 21 August 1940
* No 1 Squadron from 9 September 1940


Fighter Airfields
RAF Coltishall.
RAF Coltishall was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 66 Squadron from 29 May 1940
* No 242 Squadron from 18 June 1940
* No 616 Squadron from 3 September 1940
* No 74 Squadron from 9 September 1940
* No 72 Squadron from 13 October 1940
RAF Leconfield.
RAF Leconfield was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 249 Squadron from 18 May 1940
* No 616 Squadron from 6 June 1940
* No 302 Squadron from 13 July 1940
* No 303 Squadron from 11 October 1940
RAF Tern Hill.
Tern Hill was one of the 12 Group airfields used for resting units, and as a training airfield and maintneance depot. It was used as a relief landing ground and as a temporary base for night fighters operating against raids on Liverpool and cities in the north midlands.

No. 10 Group
Sector Airfields
RAF Filton.
RAF Filton was home to the Filton Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 504 Squadron from 26 September 1940
RAF Middle Wallop.
RAF Middle Wallop was home to the Middle Wallop Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:
* No 236 Squadron from 14 June 1940
* No 238 Squadron from 20 June 1940
* No 401 Squadron RCAF from 21 June 1940
* No 501 Squadron from 4 July 1940
* No 609 Squadron from 5 July 1940
* No 604 Squadron from 26 July 1940
* No 222 Squadron from 13 August 1940 (equipped with Spitfires)
* No 238 Squadron from 10 September 1940
* No 23 Squadron from 12 September to 25 September 1940

------

As noted in my first post, any field which was converted to 100 octane, was PERMANENTLY converted, and any 87 octane left was not enough to supply a full Squadron. From the above we can therefore understand all the Squadrons based at the above fields were then using 100 octane as well. There was no logic or gain to be had from operating 87 octane and 100 octane Squadrons at the same field, in fact all logic tells us the RAF would follow its intended plan and convert ALL Squadrons to 100 octane.

From the above information, we can see that it is very clear the RAF was operating 100 octane aircraft throughout the map area and fields shown in CLIFFS OF DOVER

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
Nov-23-2012, 14:01
Yep, it's raised it's ugly head again. No matter how much you flog this dead horse it still wants to get get up & haunt you. So how about this for a model to pseudo-simuate aircraft upgrades around the beginning of BOB.

1. Start battle with red bases having 87oct only Spits & Hurri's.
2. Start battle with blue bases having Bf109 E-1's only.
3. Over time (say every 30 minutes) a random red base has it's Spit or Hurri upgraded to 100oct.
4. Over time (say every 30 minutes) a random blue base has it's E-1's upgraded to E-4's.

This is doable via script, and might approximate various squadrons/staffels getting upgrades at the BOB progressed.

Bf 109 loss returns throughout the battle show a fairly even split between E1's & E3/E4's, so limiting to just E1's would not be correct.

July, August, September
E1 - 44%, 40%, 38%
E3 - 30%, 8%, 1%
E4 - 20%, 52%, 61%

In game there is little difference in performance between the variants, I would say the E4 performs the worse when the auto pitch is used. It also runs the hottest.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-23-2012, 14:15
Bf 109 loss returns throughout the battle show a fairly even split between E1's & E3/E4's, so limiting to just E1's would not be correct.

July, August, September
E1 - 44%, 40%, 38%
E3 - 30%, 8%, 1%
E4 - 20%, 52%, 61%

In game there is little difference in performance between the variants, I would say the E4 performs the worse when the auto pitch is used. It also runs the hottest.

See my above two posts.

As I suggested before, ALL versions of aircraft should be available.

Dutch
Nov-23-2012, 14:39
Strewth.

:goofy

vranac
Nov-23-2012, 15:23
In game there is little difference in performance between the variants, I would say the E4 performs the worse when the auto pitch is used. It also runs the hottest.

This.

But I never overheated 109 even if I fly it with closed radiators (not fully but on my secret settings)))

Only real advantage that 109 E4 have is faster rate of fire of the cannons which is helpfull in deflection shots.

And I agree with Buzzsaw and the others when talking about planesets.What is the point in the historical mission without historical FM.

Only SpitIIa is somewhat competitive against 109 over 10 000 ft and all other models can just play the cannon fodder.

Great mission by the way, thank you Salmo for the exceptional work :thumbsup:

Catseye
Nov-23-2012, 15:41
Bf 109 loss returns throughout the battle show a fairly even split between E1's & E3/E4's, so limiting to just E1's would not be correct.

July, August, September
E1 - 44%, 40%, 38%
E3 - 30%, 8%, 1%
E4 - 20%, 52%, 61%

snip . . . . . . .


Herein lies the conundrum! This discussion has now come full-circle.

Historical representation vs. SIM modelling.

How does the mission designer deal with this?

Personally, I do support the overall design methodology that Salmo has detailed and I also support the use of all aircraft variants. All the information and suggestions in this thread are superb for Salmo to consider and to continually evaluate as the missions continue. Mr. X said it succinctly - "It's all about balance." A huge challenge (considering the many opinions) is in managing historical (which I understand Salmo is using as a base-line) with the vagaries of the SIM modelling in order to have an "overall-balanced" mission map. A difficult and challenging course in which he has asked for feedback. Can't go wrong there!

Notwithstanding flight model discussion, Salmo has indicated an approach wherein he is attempting to balance the mission through the acquisition of points from a variety of kill-sources both ground and air. Consideration of aircraft inclusion and/or locations/phasing-in of aircraft variants is a daunting task and in my mind can only be "perfected" through the beta process by continual monitoring and reporting-in by the participants.

I do enjoy this civil discussion with supporting documentation and think that the results are going to be great.

Good job everyone!

AllMattersFecal
Nov-23-2012, 15:52
This.

But I never overheated 109 even if I fly it with closed radiators (not fully but on my secret settings)))

Only real advantage that 109 E4 have is faster rate of fire of the cannons which is helpfull in deflection shots.

And I agree with Buzzsaw and the others when talking about planesets.What is the point in the historical mission without historical FM.

Only SpitIIa is somewhat competitive against 109 over 10 000 ft and all other models can just play the cannon fodder.

Great mission by the way, thank you Salmo for the exceptional work :thumbsup:

Agreed. All this talk (and overkill documentary posts) is completely nullified by the fact that CloD FMs are not historically parallel with reality, so its pointless to assume authenticity in realistic accuracy. 87 octane, 100 octane, doesn't matter...choose what performs the most historically accurate. If you're going to try to attempt historical realism, take a look at the performance numbers, climb rate, top speed, turn speed, etc and compare them to real life and the sim, then go from there. Otherwise, it will be just text on the "create aircraft" screen that is historic and not the actual experience.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-23-2012, 16:21
Salute

Regarding accuracy of the aircraft modelling:

109's are modelled very closely to the historical climb/speed performance under 10,000 ft/3000 meters, with the exception being the E3 and E4 are probably too slow overall at all altitudes below 10,000 ft by approx. 15-20 kph.

Over 10,000ft/3000m the 109's have approx. 2/3's of their historical up to 6000m, then it becomes 1/3.

Weights for 109's are low, maybe why they are turning so well.

110 seems quite well modelled for speed and climb up to 3000m, then same problems above. Turnrate seems a little poor, yes they were not competitive with Spits and Hurris, but right now they seem to to turn like Ju-88's.

G-50 is quite good up to 5000 meters, although the rpm limits for the plane are inaccurate, should rev to 2520 rpm, but in fact only goes to 2250. Maneuver and turn seems accurate.

Spit I and Hurricane I two pitch versions:

These planes climb too well for 87 octane versions, they climb at 3000 ft/minute under 5000 ft which is performance you would expect for a 100 octane fueled aircraft. The reason for this is the game props are able to operate in fine pitch at 3050 rpm at 140 mph steep climbs, when the actual props were hard pressed to make 2800 rpm in fine pitch at climb speeds of 160mph. Speeds under 10,000 are reasonably accurate. Over 10,000 ft they have less than historical performance, (1/2) but are not penalized to the same degree the other Spits and Hurricanes are by the misfire bug.

I would personally use these planes as 100 octane versions, in which case they are probably reasonable for use in a Dunkirk scenarios. Throw in a 100 octane Rotol Hurricane, (the Hurricanes came out with constant speed props before the Spits) and put them up against 109E1's and E3's and you have a reasonably balanced setup.

Spit IA and Hurricane Rotol (87 octane)

These two planes are slightly undermodelled under 10,000 ft, perhaps performing at 85% of historical, over 10,000 they fall off drastically to 1/2 normal. They really aren't a match for any of the 109's except down low. Any well flown 109 can easily stay above them and boom and zoom to its heart's content.

Hurricane Rotol (100 octane)

One of the better modelled aircraft on the Brit side, it has speed and climb almost perfect under 10,000, although it starts to run into the misfiring bug at approx. 10,000. Not as bad as the Spit IA 100 octane, able to fight effectively versus the 109s up to approx. 12,000.

Spit IA 100 octane

This plane may climb a little too well below 5000 ft, but it is also a little slow, approx. 10-15 mph. Over 7500 ft the engine misfiring starts to happen and it cannot fight effectively versus 109's over approx. 10,000 ft.

Spit IIA

This plane is very well modelled under 10,000, but then like all Spits, hits the soggy ceiling at 10k and starts to perform at 1/2 its historical capability. Still it is probably able to fight the 109's up to 15,000 ft or if it starts with an alt advantage, higher for a while.

All the 109's have the advantage of the ahistorical unlimited tungsten ammo loadout. The British .303's were reduced in effectiveness in the last patch, they were too powerful previously in their ability to tear off wings, unfortunately the Dewilde ammo has been scaled back too much, it should be more effective than the standard British or German incendiaries in its ability to set things on fire.

Above is my opinion of course.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-23-2012, 16:53
Strewth.

:goofy

I checked with my own source - Jules - about the 87 octane thing, and this was HIS answer to me:

1176

AllMattersFecal
Nov-23-2012, 17:07
Great write up Buzz.

The Hurricane 100 oct doesn't suffer the same misfiring bug as the spit 100 does after 10k ft, as far as I've seen and I fly it very often.

Now that the info is posted, lets get back to actual mission feedback.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-23-2012, 17:40
Great write up Buzz.

The Hurricane 100 oct doesn't suffer the same misfiring bug as the spit 100 does after 10k ft, as far as I've seen and I fly it very often.

Now that the info is posted, lets get back to actual mission feedback.

+1

I've copy & pasted Buzzsaw's two posts to file, along with Notafinger's quick post on the 109 model breakdown by month. Figure it may come in handy someday for quick reference. Thanks to both of you.

Dutch
Nov-23-2012, 18:14
I checked with my own source - Jules - about the 87 octane thing, and this was HIS answer to me:

1176

Pfffft. You just have to learn to fly smarter, put on your big boy pants, get on TS, always fly in pairs. Sheesh, haven't you learned anything yet in all......... these..........long...........months.............. .Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

'Lucy in the sky-ye with di-ia-amonds, Lucy in the rabbit with ponds in the hills and where's the handkerchief in the roast beef dinner gone? I must find it I must find it'.......Zzzzzzzzzzzz............................

Lucy........Zzzzzzzzzzzzz............


What? Eh?

:PP

Redroach
Nov-23-2012, 20:26
Interesting map.

Not sure if I'm liking the icons on the mini-map. Sort of fly's in the face of a full switch server?

Still evaluating.

Cheers

Follow up: Flew online for about 1 hr. on the blue side and noticed there were continuous micro-stutters. No big pauses or lag for me - just continual flicker-like all the time.

I'm beginning to understand the mini-map more and do appreciate the effort for situational awareness but . . . . . I am one of those pilots that feel this reduces the element of disbelief and even though it doesn't act like an F16 MFD, it still is too artificial for me. If it was a voice command, now that would be the thing.

Still working on the TAB4 thing and have to go back and read over the blurb.

I fly full real. I don't use any text boxes and rely solely on instruments and voice comms. So I guess I'm on the far right of the "fly as real as you can" scale. I say this so you can measure how my input compares to others.

Cheers Guys,
Good stuff always coming down the pipe and much appreciated.

Hmm, I think that the whole buzz about this map is Radar. You strive to knock the other guy's radar out and vice versa, so there should be a very obvious 'bonus' of sorts. If you reduce that to just voice messages, there's still the dogfighting, Air-to-ground etc. pp. and the points race, but still, the 'optical' advantage for the leading team is lost. Which is a bad thing imo.
Besides that, and speaking of suspension of disbelief: I always equalise the display of planes on the map with the pilot a) pointing its finger on the map and b) tracking planes with a pen or something like that. Which is fair, to a certain degree, I believe, but when you assume that your pilot is tracking his own flight, as well as the one or two enemy contacts in front of him, it starts to get... messy, I realize that.
But because of the argument above, I'm strongly for "Keep the minimap symbols".

Oh, and someone mentioned that Canterbury Cathedral is there now: If I fly to Portsmouth, I'll probably not be greeted by the HMS Victory, do I? :)

P.S.: The map is just awesome. Another step into 'new grounds', at the very least within CoD! Keep. That. Up. Please. :thumbsup:

P.P.S.: Am I hallucinating again, or are there again words like "balanced planeset", "Spit IIa", "Bf 109 E4", "100 octane" swirling around by the thousands?:doh: No, seriously: There have been thousands of posts on the banana forums on those topics... why repeat it here? Do we expect to come to different conclusions because this forum's background color is white? And did Commanders in 1940 pick plane types and numbers in order to exactly equal what the enemy has in the air, so to provide a fair sporting match? Questions over questions...

Doc
Nov-23-2012, 21:47
The E1 completely out classes the other variants available today. And I prefer the 4 8mm guns over the cannons.

Roblex
Nov-24-2012, 04:55
I finally got to try the new map this morning and was surprised there were no vectors being given. I was told by someone (not ATAG) that this was the same radar as was on this video from the Storm Of War server
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GuOfLJ4bLn8#!
and that showed Ground Control not only advising where the bombers are but also what vector to use to intercept them. Is the system in the video not the same as we have on ATAG?

Salmo
Nov-24-2012, 08:34
I finally got to try the new map this morning and was surprised there were no vectors being given. I was told by someone (not ATAG) that this was the same radar as was on this video from the Storm Of War server
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GuOfLJ4bLn8#!
and that showed Ground Control not only advising where the bombers are but also what vector to use to intercept them. Is the system in the video not the same as we have on ATAG?

Hello Roblex. My radar implimentation has been completely independent to Mogell's work. Indeed I was unaware of him working on a chain radar simulation. I like his vector to target work which could be implimented in my code in due course. His explanation of how it works is remarkably similar to my implimentation. Both are WIP's.

Roblex
Nov-27-2012, 05:20
Not sure if this is a bug or just how it works but..

This morning (about 9gmt) I was flying the map and TAB-4 would not offer any missions even though there were messages saying there were 9 He111s over Kent. I could not select 'Recon' as I have done previously, in fact it would not even allow me to use '0' to get out of the Mission menu.

The other odd thing is that I was getting no flak over France. I flew from Boulougne up to French point at about 1000ft and then proceeded to buzz all the airfields from there to Dunkirk before turning round and landing at Oye-Plage where I was promptly captured :-)

The only other person on comms experienced the same lack of Missions and lack of Flak in N France (except he was not stupid enough to land at Oye Plage)

ATAG_Torian
Nov-27-2012, 06:09
Salmo is there a particular reason for the brown flag side ?
Why don't u remove it ?

Salmo
Nov-27-2012, 06:38
Salmo is there a particular reason for the brown flag side ?
Why don't u remove it ?

The game makes a brown flag appear auromatically when there is a gap between red & blue front lines ie over the channel. It's something the game does, I haven't found a way to remove it other than make one front line down the middle of the channel

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
Nov-27-2012, 07:29
The game makes a brown flag appear auromatically when there is a gap between red & blue front lines ie over the channel. It's something the game does, I haven't found a way to remove it other than make one front line down the middle of the channel

For SOW missions I have most of the Channel neutral and do not have this problem. Under edit Armies are you able to see what nations are assigned to Brown and just remove them.

Catseye
Nov-27-2012, 12:11
I had two flights yesterday with Snapper where we patrolled the Chain Home Radar in the Dover area.

The multiple inbound bombers at varying altitudes and of varying types including what appeared to be a lone reconnaissance Bf-108 kept us very busy and imparted a feeling of being somewhat overwhelmed by enemy forces on a continual basis. This is good! Sort of placed us in the moment of history. Granted, it was late and we were the only two RAF aircraft in the sky but the hunt for the enemy by using the radar sightings and then trying to pick them up visually was quite a good experience.

Kudo's so far on Operation Sunlight for playability and variation.

Cheers

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-27-2012, 12:17
+1

It was good flying with you, Cats! :thumbsup:

Catseye
Nov-27-2012, 15:58
+1

It was good flying with you, Cats! :thumbsup:

Same here Snapper!
Especially the "chase" across the Channel. :doh:

Salmo
Nov-27-2012, 23:24
For SOW missions I have most of the Channel neutral and do not have this problem. Under edit Armies are you able to see what nations are assigned to Brown and just remove them.

Thankyou notafinger. It looks like the Netherlands slipped into the 'none' army. Problem should now be solved.

III./ZG76_Keller
Nov-27-2012, 23:28
Flew two sorties tonight, and I must say something strange is going on.

He-111 @ 5400m - Direct hit along the North side of the radar towers at Dover with 8 x 250kg bombs - Damaged 1 car and took down the towers. No damage change to target.

Ju-88 Dive Bomb - Direct hit on towers and buildings at Eastchurch Radar with 4 x 250kg bombs - Damaged 1 car and took down the tower. No damage change to target.

It's like the bombs are going off but not doing enough damage.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Nov-27-2012, 23:41
no 110 c7? seems lots of things to bomb with them. is that map maker choice? my first time flying it, alot of info to go through. thanks for spending so much time on making the game better.:salute:

Salmo
Nov-28-2012, 00:12
Flew two sorties tonight, and I must say something strange is going on.

He-111 @ 5400m - Direct hit along the North side of the radar towers at Dover with 8 x 250kg bombs - Damaged 1 car and took down the towers. No damage change to target.

Ju-88 Dive Bomb - Direct hit on towers and buildings at Eastchurch Radar with 4 x 250kg bombs - Damaged 1 car and took down the tower. No damage change to target.

It's like the bombs are going off but not doing enough damage.

Thanks Keller. I've changed the radar damage code which will be in the next mission update sent to Bliss. I belive the target icon is not updating & always shows 100% OK even when damage has occured. I've removed the traget icon damage indication & replaced this with a pilot HUD message that might better give pilots an idea of how they are going destroying targets

Salmo
Nov-28-2012, 00:17
no 110 c7? seems lots of things to bomb with them. is that map maker choice? my first time flying it, alot of info to go through. thanks for spending so much time on making the game better.:salute:

Map maker choice, but open to change. From memory the mission has the Bf110 C-4. Does anyone have any information about when the Bf110 C-7 with the centerline bomb racks become available?

Doc
Nov-28-2012, 00:28
Salmo

Is there wind in this mission?

III./ZG76_Keller
Nov-28-2012, 00:30
Thanks Keller. I've changed the radar damage code which will be in the next mission update sent to Bliss. I belive the target icon is not updating & always shows 100% OK even when damage has occured. I've removed the traget icon damage indication & replaced this with a pilot HUD message that might better give pilots an idea of how they are going destroying targets

I think I see the issue now, after some time the map updates had 100% OK and 100% Damaged written over top of each other. So damage was done we just don't know how much.

Should there be a message that comes up saying "Radar at RAF Dover has been damaged"?

1186

Salmo
Nov-28-2012, 02:23
<snip>Should there be a message that comes up saying "Radar at RAF Dover has been damaged"?
1186

Not in the mission version onthe server at the moment. I'll be sending another mission version to Bliss soon that has exactly that, some sort of on-screen message to players when targets are damaged

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
Nov-28-2012, 06:46
Map maker choice, but open to change. From memory the mission has the Bf110 C-4. Does anyone have any information about when the Bf110 C-7 with the centerline bomb racks become available?

Erprobungsgruppe 210 went into action on July 13. They used a variety of Bf 110's capable of carrying bombs, mostly C-6's, D-0's, and later E's. They played a huge role in the battle so it's pretty important that a fighter-bomber 110 be included.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Nov-28-2012, 14:16
i read the first link, are trains really working?

Salmo
Nov-29-2012, 00:13
Salmo

Is there wind in this mission?

No, or at least none that you'd notice.

Salmo
Nov-29-2012, 00:14
i read the first link, are trains really working?

Yes, there are red & blue trains a little inland of the English & French coasts.

Salmo
Nov-29-2012, 00:15
Erprobungsgruppe 210 went into action on July 13. They used a variety of Bf 110's capable of carrying bombs, mostly C-6's, D-0's, and later E's. They played a huge role in the battle so it's pretty important that a fighter-bomber 110 be included.

Good enough for me. I'll include the Me110 C-7 in the next mission version.

Stirwenn
Nov-29-2012, 08:39
I really appreciate time and efforts of mission builder but i'm not enthousiast of this "scenario", sorry :

- brief is very poor for red : a raid announced and that's all ! what about the sitting duck ships in Dover Harbour ? and over potential targets we are supposed to protect ?
- TAB-4 most of time stuck at recon and you can't select over TAB4 options, TAB-7-1 is more clever,
- Radar is something i do not understand in this scenario : i never had problems before on ATAG server, always managed to intercept a flight or a single fighter but now... hum... several times i was in patrol, in grid at the right altitude with a "just announced" flight and saw nothing...
- Anti aircraft guns are lunatics over germans airfields : most of times they do not shoot (tempted to do a touch and go ;) )

Please add some explanation to your brief about the use of radar, targets (and their value !) that may encourage players to fly bombers (fighters were about 30% of the Luftwaffe).
And please consider that i'm not ranting, whining cause what you created is too far away from what i could and that i'm thankfull of your time.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-29-2012, 09:18
Hi Stirwenn, try the very top post at the start of this thread - it might help answer some of your questions. I'll post the RADAR stuff below:


AIRCRAFT TRACKING UNITS
Tracking enemy aircraft movements was pivital to Battle of Briatin operations. Aircraft tracking was achieved by use of radar, aerial & ground observations. The following radar units have been implimented to simulate various aircraft tracking techniques used during WW2. This radar simulation is quite complex & life-like.

GERMAN FREYA RADAR
Germany developed Freya radar in 1937. Freya radar was highly accurate in determining aircraft numbers & altitude. Although more advanced than the English Chain radar, Freya sufferered from serious deficiencies including patchy coverage & a poor & uncoordinated reporting & response system.

Freya Radar has these features:
The radar will accurately report the number & altitude of enemy aircraft. This reflects the more advanced nature of Freya.
Freya will report enemy aircraft irregularly reflecting the patchy coverage & uncoordinated manner of German radar use during the Battle of Briatin.
Freya maximum range is about 60km.
Effective range varies between 50km & 60km. ie Any given radar sweep may vary in its range, reflecting variation due to weather etc.
Freya radar projects a upward angled beam above the horizontal. Effective minimum height therefore, varies depending upon the distance from the radar to the target.
Freya radar is an outward-looking radar, it does not report enemy aircraft over France even if the aircraft are within it's operating range.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for about 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the Freya unit.
Freya units can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed Freya radar unit ceases to operate.


CHAIN HOME RADAR

Chain Home radar (CH) was the code-name for the ring of early warning radars around the English coastline. The system was not able to detect aircraft at low altitude & was used in conjuction with the Chain Home Low (CHL) radar system. Although inferior in accuracy to Freya radar, the English radar formed one part of a well coordinated air defence system.

CH Radar has these features:
CH units are located mostly along the coastline of southern England. They can be distinguished by their in-line array of 3-4 large towers.
CH radar will report the number & altitude of enemy aircraft, but numbers & altitude may vary slightly from true altitude/numbers. This reflects some of the inaccuracy in the CH system.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the CH unit.
CH radar is an outward-looking radar, it does not report enemy aircraft over England even if the aircraft are within it's operating range.
CH has a range of about 190km.
Effective range varies between 130km & 190km. ie Any given radar sweep may vary in its range, reflecting variation due to weather etc.
CH radar projects a upward angled beam about 15 degrees above the horizontal. Effective minimum height therefore, varies depending upon the distance from the radar to the target. eg. at 5km from the radar the effective minimum height is 1,400m, at 10km from the radar the effective minimum height is 2,600m, at 20km from the radar the effective minimum height is 5,300m, at 40km from the radar the effective minimum height is 10,700m, at 70km from the radar the effective minimum height is 18,750m, and so on.
CH units can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed CH radar unit ceases to operate.


CHAIN HOME LOW RADAR

Chain Home Low (CHL) was the code-name for the ring of early warning radars around the English coastline. The system detected lower flying aircraft than the CH system & was used in conjuction with the Chain Home Low (CH) radar system.

CHL Radar has these features:
CH units are located mostly (but not always) along the coastline of southern England. They can be distinguished by a single tower & nearby buldings with smaller radar units on top.
CHL radar will report the number & altitude of enemy aircraft, but numbers & altitude may vary slightly from true readings. This reflects some of the inaccuracy in the CHL system.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the OC unit.
CHL radar is an outward-looking radar, it does not report enemy aircraft over England even if the aircraft are within it's operating range.
CHL has a range of about 46km.
Effective range varies between 36km & 46km. ie Any given radar sweep may vary in its range, reflecting variation due to weather etc.
CHL radars can detect aircraft as low as 500 feet (150 meters).
CHL units can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed CHL radar unit ceases to operate.


OBSERVER CORP

Observer Corp (OC) units simulate the Royal Observer Corp , a civil defence organisation operating in the United Kingdom between 29 October 1925 and 31 December 1995. The OC played an important role in tracking aircraft movements during the Battle of Britain.

The OC has the following features:
OC units are located throughout southern England. They can be found along the coast and in or near towns. They appear as a circle of sandbags containing a map board & heightfinder object.
OC units will constantly scan the skies in a 360 degree arc around themselves looking for enemy aircraft within range of the unit.
OC unit range is about 10km, but varies depending upon time of day & weather.
OC unit accuracy (the number number of aircraft sighted & their altitude) may vary slightly from true numbers/altitude.
A radio announcement is made when enemy aircraft are sighted, & aircraft information is posted in the chat bar.
An enemy aircraft icon will appear on your mini-map screen giving the number of aircraft sighted, their approximate altitude & the in-game time of the sighting.
Icons will remain on the mini-map for about 3 minutes after the sighting is made & are only visible to players of the same army as the OC unit.
Observer units are ground units similar to AA batteries (but they do not fire at aircraft), they can be destroyed by straffing or bombing.
A destroyed OC unit ceases to operate.


OBOE RADIO NAVIGATION (available soon)
Radio transponder technology was developed during WW2. OBOE was a British aerial blind bombing targeting system that used a radio beam to guide aircraft to their target. Blenheim bombers are equiped with a simulation of the OBOE blind bombing radio navigation system.

OBOE has these features:
Pilots can turn OBOE off & on using their pitot heater switch.
OBOE calculates a navigation vector from a base unit in southern England to the designated target.
Navigation information is displayed in the pilot's HUD display.
The HUD shows the distance left or right of the straight-line vector from the base unit to the target. The pilot is able to position the aircraft so it remains in the centre of this beam.
Drift left or right of the navigation beam & the display will tell you how much correction is needed to get back on track.
When the pilot is close to the target, a 'countdown to bomb-drop' timer will also be displayed. The countdown takes account of the aircraft's speed & altitude to calcuate the precise moment when to drop your bombs for maximum effect.
With practice, this system is very accurate in putting your bombs in the pickle barrel, even at altitude.



AERIAL RECONNAISSANCE
Aerial reconnaissance is the collection of information about the disposition of enemy units, and about the status of possible targets by aircraft. This is usually achieved by aircraft over-flying areas of interest & reporting observations or taking photographs. A reconnaissance system has been built to simulate the scouting and observation activities of WW2 recon units.

AI Planes - Some Ai bomber aircraft are designated as recon planes. Recon planes may or may not have a fighter escort. When a recon plane reaches it's objective, it radios back to base to report the objective's status. To simulate this action, a message will appear in the player's HUD display and an icon will appear on the mini-map showing the objective location, status & time of the recon event.

Human Planes - (testing at this time) Players may recon enemy objects such as target objectives, AA units, observer corps units, vehicles, factories, etc. Just fly over the object & use the (TAB-4) custom menu 'Recon object' option. The nearest object in range will appear as an icon on the mini-map in a similar manner to Ai Plane recons.

Reconnaissance features:
Recon icons are only visible to players in the same army as the aircraft that perfomed the reconnaissance .
Recon icons show the enemy object's status at the time of the recon, and not necessarily it's current status.
Recon icons for mobile objects (like vehicles) shows their position at the time of recon & not necessarily their current position
Recon icons for fixed (stationary) objectives remain on the mini-map until an objective is reached or the object is destroyed.
Recon icons for mobile objects are removed from the mini-map after 30 minutes.
A new recon event will update the mini-map icon with the target's current status & position.

AllMattersFecal
Nov-29-2012, 18:11
Hi fellas...

IMO this mission isn't seen enough on the server. If it means anything, I'd push for making missions such as these (innovative, population adaptable, radar additions, dynamic objectives) the absolute standard and do-away (or update to the same standard, preferably) with the older missions.

The stuff that Salmo (and Wolf) has done with the limited tools available is revolutionary to CloD and should be heavily leveraged to sustain the high quality of gameplay these missions offer.

Any thoughts from the admins?

Salmo
Nov-30-2012, 01:48
I really appreciate time and efforts of mission builder but i'm not enthousiast of this "scenario", sorry :

- brief is very poor for red : a raid announced and that's all ! what about the sitting duck ships in Dover Harbour ? and over potential targets we are supposed to protect ?
- TAB-4 most of time stuck at recon and you can't select over TAB4 options, TAB-7-1 is more clever,
- Radar is something i do not understand in this scenario : i never had problems before on ATAG server, always managed to intercept a flight or a single fighter but now... hum... several times i was in patrol, in grid at the right altitude with a "just announced" flight and saw nothing...
- Anti aircraft guns are lunatics over germans airfields : most of times they do not shoot (tempted to do a touch and go ;) )

Please add some explanation to your brief about the use of radar, targets (and their value !) that may encourage players to fly bombers (fighters were about 30% of the Luftwaffe).
And please consider that i'm not ranting, whining cause what you created is too far away from what i could and that i'm thankfull of your time.

Thankyou for your feedback. I'll address your queries in point form.

1. brief is very poor for red - It's my experience that players seldom read the brief. Even less so, when the brief is too long. I guess they just want to get into a plane and fly/fight. I belive the red brief (copied below) provides enough informaion.

Date: July 1940
Weather: Early fog & cloud over southern England & the Channel , clearing mid-morning, with persistent low cloud
Visibilty: Shallow/limited visibility

BATTLE ORDERS:
Fighters: Defend Chain Home radar stations at RAF Dover (L-6), RAF Dunkirk (I-8), RAF Warden Point (I-9).
Bombers: Attack shipping in Dunkirk & Calais harbours.

WIN OBJECTIVE: First army to 3,000 points wins.
Major points: Ships in Dunkrirk & Calais harbours.
Minor points: Cars, trains, AA, enemy planes etc

Note:
1. The enemy has mini-map radar.
2. Lose your plane & you give points to the enemy!

2. what about the sitting duck ships in Dover Harbour ? - You've noticed that blue has some additional targets (points) close to their main objectiives. That's good, you can defend them at the same time as you defend the Dover radar. I'm not sure that blue has figured out that they have other targets they can hit to get points. Oops! Just gave a freeby to blue.

3. ... and over potential targets we are supposed to protect ? - Every enemy object has points, it's impossible to list ALL object locations in the brief. You could go off and find a red car somewhere to protect if you want to protect 5 points, but I'd rather protect 500 points at the radars.

TAB-4 most of time stuck at recon and you can't select over TAB4 options, TAB-7-1 is more clever, - This is not a script issue, it's either a game issue or a keybinding issue you have. Try pressing [escape] to get out of the TAB-4 custom menu system. By all means use TAB-7 if you prefer.

4. Radar is something i do not understand in this scenario : i never had problems before on ATAG server, always managed to intercept a flight or a single fighter but now... hum... several times i was in patrol, in grid at the right altitude with a "just announced" flight and saw nothing... - Please read 1st post in this thread. It gives an explanation of how the radar works. There is no error in the radar calls or radar-icons they are positioned exactly where an emeny plane is located at the time of the call. There is sometimes an issue where a given player will not recieve a radar announcement or the radar-icon appears until a little after the flight is detected. This is a game issue. In any event, the flight should be no more than about 30 secs from their announced location at the time you recieve the announcement.

5. Anti aircraft guns are lunatics over germans airfields : most of times they do not shoot (tempted to do a touch and go ;) ) AA over France is fairly light at the moment, The next mission version will have heavier AA defences for blue. In addition, airbases commanders will soon be monitoring enemy activity over their airfields & calling for more flak defences as the mission progreses. So, bases that are often attacked, will increase their defences dynamically over time.

6. Please add some explanation to your brief about the use of radar, targets (and their value !) that may encourage players to fly bombers (fighters were about 30% of the Luftwaffe). - There is far too much going behind the scenes in the mission to cover it all in the brief. Best read the 1st post for intricate details. I'll post point values for player's information, just know that larger or more valuable targets (like radars) will give more points than smaller less valuable targets (like cars). Ifa player wants to fly a fighter to straff a car & get 5 points thats their perogative. If a player wants to take a bomber & bomb a car for 5 points, good on them. If I were flying a bomber I'd be going for the larger targets listed in the brief. I think many players don't take a bomber because they don't know how to fly one.

7. And please consider that i'm not ranting, whining cause what you created is too far away from what i could and that i'm thankfull of your time. - There is no offence taken. You're not ranting & I value feedback.

Salmo
Nov-30-2012, 02:03
Updated 1st post with current object point values

Salmo
Nov-30-2012, 06:28
Updated Sunlight mission now running on Nations@War server over this weekend. I intend to send next mission version to ATAG_Bliss next week. Now has these additional features:

1. Upgradable aircraft at bases
- All airbases now start with basic/early aircraft types.
- One random red airbase will upgrade from non 100oct aircraft to 100oct aircraft every 40-45min.
- One random blue airbase will upgrade from Bf109 E1 aircraft to Bf109 E3 aircraft, or perhaps Me110 C4 to Me110 C7, every 30-45min.
- Airbase upgrades announced on relevent army player HUDs in-game.

2. Dynamic airbase AA
- Airbase commanders now monitor enemy activity over their airfield and will spawn additional AA pieces at the most frequently attacked base every 15min.
- Airbase AA upgrades announced on relevent army player's HUDs in-game.

3. Other changes
- Introduced weather report in the custom menu. Ground controller -> weather report
- More vehicles around blue bases.
- More AA on blue side of the Channel.
- Reduced vocalisation time of radar calls. Announcements are shorter & hopefully less annoying.
- Refined the aircrew losses code, should count more accurately now.
- Landing at enemy bases should result in you & your aircrew being captured.
- Several other minor tweaks

ATAG_Colander
Nov-30-2012, 09:31
Thanks Salmo,

Your efforts are appreciated!

:salute:
ATAG_Colander.

Roblex
Nov-30-2012, 14:16
I am guessing some of these features have already been slipped in because I landed at an enemy base a few days ago and was captured.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-30-2012, 15:36
Salmo - Sent you a PM.

Catseye
Nov-30-2012, 16:05
Hi fellas...

IMO this mission isn't seen enough on the server. If it means anything, I'd push for making missions such as these (innovative, population adaptable, radar additions, dynamic objectives) the absolute standard and do-away (or update to the same standard, preferably) with the older missions.

The stuff that Salmo (and Wolf) has done with the limited tools available is revolutionary to CloD and should be heavily leveraged to sustain the high quality of gameplay these missions offer.

Any thoughts from the admins?

+1

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-03-2012, 17:36
Salmo,

The revised mission will not load. It actually caused the server to be down all day as it put the commander into an infinite loop trying to restart it. Also, there's been several reports of huge amounts of lag and warping. Any chance that some of the objects/AI can be toned down a bit? I think there's more going on than what the game can handle for many players.

I've reverted back to the 1st version so the server doesn't crash.

Salmo
Dec-04-2012, 00:00
Salmo,

The revised mission will not load. It actually caused the server to be down all day as it put the commander into an infinite loop trying to restart it. Also, there's been several reports of huge amounts of lag and warping. Any chance that some of the objects/AI can be toned down a bit? I think there's more going on than what the game can handle for many players.

I've reverted back to the 1st version so the server doesn't crash.

Oh dear. Take the mission out of rotation please until fixed.My apologies everyone. Ai have been toned down so the issue must be in the scripting somewhere.

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-04-2012, 00:32
It worked out good actually. The physical machine had not been restarted in months so it gave me a chance to do some much needed maintenance!

Catseye
Dec-04-2012, 11:45
Hi All,
Yesterday evening I noticed an anomaly on my mini-map after completing Operation Sunlight and the map switched.
Checking over comms, no one else had this issue.

When I entered the new map and checked the map pre-mission to select an aircraft, it showed icons for enemy aircraft mid-channel giving their height and altitude just as in OS. When I entered the cockpit, my mini-map also showed these icons. The icons did not change throughout the mission.

Could this be an issue with my cache?

Cheers,
Cats . . .

ATAG_Colander
Dec-04-2012, 11:50
Hi All,
Yesterday evening I noticed an anomaly on my mini-map after completing Operation Sunlight and the map switched.
Checking over comms, no one else had this issue.

When I entered the new map and checked the map pre-mission to select an aircraft, it showed icons for enemy aircraft mid-channel giving their height and altitude just as in OS. When I entered the cockpit, my mini-map also showed these icons. The icons did not change throughout the mission.

Could this be an issue with my cache?

Cheers,
Cats . . .


Hi Cats,

Sounds more like a bug where the game (client side) is not clearing the icons after the mission changed.

Colander.

Roblex
Dec-04-2012, 11:52
I see ghost radar contacts on the next mission quite often. In fact I am pretty sure I also saw the contacts when I played an offline mission after ATAG. Not a problem.

Salmo
Dec-05-2012, 00:24
Hi Cats,

Sounds more like a bug where the game (client side) is not clearing the icons after the mission changed.

Colander.

The same issue arises when you change armies in-game OS. Change from red to blue & initially the icons you had for red will show on the blue loading screen after you click the blue army flag. I'd suggest this is a game bug, but I'll investigate whether it's possible to "wipe" the map screen via script when a player disco's or the mission ends.

ATAG_Colander
Dec-05-2012, 10:44
The same issue arises when you change armies in-game OS. Change from red to blue & initially the icons you had for red will show on the blue loading screen after you click the blue army flag. I'd suggest this is a game bug, but I'll investigate whether it's possible to "wipe" the map screen via script when a player disco's or the mission ends.

The problem is that when the server restarts you loose the ability to wipe the icons as the mission is no longer running :(

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-06-2012, 01:41
Salmo - The issue with the latest update is line 303 "@F: il2/resources/... ... ... It might be interference with code in our Commander. It seemed if I shut off the commander while it was loading it seemed to load without error although all the radar messages being registered etc., no long showed up in the console.

The error is attached: 1193

Salmo
Dec-06-2012, 03:33
Salmo - The issue with the latest update is line 303 "@F: il2/resources/... ... ... It might be interference with code in our Commander. It seemed if I shut off the commander while it was loading it seemed to load without error although all the radar messages being registered etc., no long showed up in the console.

The error is attached: 1193

Could be an absolute file path error. ?Corrected line 303 & sent Ver1.11 to Bliss for ?? ATAG_Server 2 testing.

II/JG53_TarJak
Dec-09-2012, 03:05
Not sure if this has been raised before but the 109-E4 spawns at St Omer are rather hard to use even with a good set of tow breaks on rudder pedals. Any sideways movement of the tail results in an explosion due to the tight rear end of the huts. If they could be rolled out a few metres, then Blue wouldn't lose some many points to explosions caused by simply starting the aircraft.

Salmo
Dec-09-2012, 18:30
Not sure if this has been raised before but the 109-E4 spawns at St Omer are rather hard to use even with a good set of tow breaks on rudder pedals. Any sideways movement of the tail results in an explosion due to the tight rear end of the huts. If they could be rolled out a few metres, then Blue wouldn't lose some many points to explosions caused by simply starting the aircraft.

Thankyou Tarjak. I've disabled hangar spawnpoints at this airfield for the next mission version.

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
Dec-15-2012, 17:30
Not sure what makes this mission different but we get really, really bad warping on this mission and this one only.

Salmo
Dec-16-2012, 01:23
Not sure what makes this mission different but we get really, really bad warping on this mission and this one only.

Thankyou NotaFinger. There's a lot of processing happening behind the scenes in the OnTickgame event. Not sure if that could be contributing to any lag problem, but I might see if I can reduce that processing time or move some of the code to other events (like the OnTaskComplete event) & see of that helps.

vranac
Dec-18-2012, 15:00
Thankyou NotaFinger. There's a lot of processing happening behind the scenes in the OnTickgame event. Not sure if that could be contributing to any lag problem, but I might see if I can reduce that processing time or move some of the code to other events (like the OnTaskComplete event) & see of that helps.

I was flying last evening with friend in a pair and he had lag and I didn't.Only difference between our PCs is he didn't OC his CPU and my is running on 4.5 GHz.

Roblex
Dec-18-2012, 15:09
I have been ignoring it as 'teething problems' for a while but now I have to ask....is the 'Mission' selection on TAB supposed to be working? All you get is an option to choose the 'recon' mission and that only works the first time you select it.

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-19-2012, 00:44
The majority of it is my problem. Salmo has released a few revisions, and I just have not have time to test them. But in other news I fixed (I hope) the Dunkirk mission tonight. I removed Daisy until it can actually be fixed and the same with Sunlight until I can have a proper go at it.

Expect a whole bunch more on all fronts after the holidays.

Tonester
Dec-23-2012, 05:51
Expect a whole bunch more on all fronts after the holidays.

Awesome!!....i love this place :)

Salmo
Jan-28-2013, 15:36
Exciting developments to the Operation Sunlight mission. Ai flights now behave more like real life, no more Ai 'popping' in & out of the battle with random flight spawnings & despawnings:

1. Ai flights appear as 'stationary' planes at airfields.
2. Ai's are assigned a mission periodically. When mission is assigned, the flight will start their engines & go off on their mission.
3. Ai's do not despawn after returning to their home base after a mission. They will engines-off & wait for their next assigned mission.
4. Ai aircraft with damage will remain at their base 'for repairs' & not go on missions.
5. Ai aircraft shot down during missions, or destroyed on the ground, are not replaced, so Ai flights tend to have fewer aircraft in them over time.

CptJackSparrow
Jan-28-2013, 16:59
This sounds very epic. =)

thee_oddball
Jan-28-2013, 18:53
Exciting developments to the Operation Sunlight mission. Ai flights now behave more like real life, no more Ai 'popping' in & out of the battle with random flight spawnings & despawnings:

1. Ai flights appear as 'stationary' planes at airfields.
2. Ai's are assigned a mission periodically. When mission is assigned, the flight will start their engines & go off on their mission.
3. Ai's do not despawn after returning to their home base after a mission. They will engines-off & wait for their next assigned mission.
4. Ai aircraft with damage will remain at their base 'for repairs' & not go on missions.
5. Ai aircraft shot down during missions, or destroyed on the ground, are not replaced, so Ai flights tend to have fewer aircraft in them over time.

outstanding! an autonomous eviroment, well done sir

Skoshi_Tiger
Jan-29-2013, 05:49
Great stuff! A war of attrition! Can wait until it gets in to rotation!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-29-2013, 05:55
5. Ai aircraft shot down during missions, or destroyed on the ground, are not replaced, so Ai flights tend to have fewer aircraft in them over time.

Sits back with popcorn waiting for the screams about "dishonor" and "vulching" to start. :)

ATAG_Snapper
Jan-29-2013, 08:11
Sits back with popcorn waiting for the screams about "dishonor" and "vulching" to start. :)

Not here on ATAG! War is war! :devilish:

LG1.Klein
Feb-04-2013, 11:27
Yeah I've found that out. Sixxpack loves hanging out around Caffiers/Pihen. :grrr:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-04-2013, 11:56
Yeah I've found that out. Sixxpack loves hanging out around Caffiers/Pihen. :grrr:

He he he. I could give you a list of about 20 names of luftwaffe pilots who like to hang around at Hawkinge.
And about another 5 or so who like to hang around at Manston ;)

ATAG_Snapper
Feb-04-2013, 12:07
He he he. I could give you a list of about 20 names of luftwaffe pilots who like to hang around at Hawkinge.
And about another 5 or so who like to hang around at Manston ;)

And we LOVE 'EM!!! Keep 'em coming! Easy meat! :thumbsup:

:)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-04-2013, 12:10
And we LOVE 'EM!!! Keep 'em coming! Easy meat! :thumbsup:
:)

Yes indeed! No complains about base strafing from me. It keeps the 109s nice and low.

ATAG_Deacon
Feb-04-2013, 13:07
Yes indeed! No complains about base strafing from me. It keeps the 109s nice and low.

Hmmm...I prefer to call it tactical suppression. :recon:

Roblex
Feb-04-2013, 16:54
4. Ai aircraft with damage will remain at their base 'for repairs' & not go on missions.
5. Ai aircraft shot down during missions, or destroyed on the ground, are not replaced, so Ai flights tend to have fewer aircraft in them over time.

As most AI bomber squadrons are wiped out or only one or two get back to friendly territory with damage how is this going to work? Will we have bigger formations? Same size formations but more of them at more airfields? Better AI gunners?

Can we have some sneaky 'under the radar' raids using little used routes eg Ju88s sneaking out North from the Calais region then hitting Eastchurch from North-East or Blenheims doing a similar raid in reverse. Currently everything is concentrated in an area bounded by the Manston-Calais line and the Dungeness-Le Touquet line but if AI formations flew outside this area at wavetops and were not spotted until they crossed the enemy coast at low level and hit one of the major airfields it would cause instant panic and it could be fun trying to find them before they escaped and it would make the AI bombers more likely to survive and RTB.

Salmo
Feb-14-2013, 22:46
* Added the ability to bomb an airfield out of action :)

If enough bombs are dropped on an airfield Ai's & players will no longer be able to spawn there. ie. Spawn point is removed from the battle.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-15-2013, 04:18
* Added the ability to bomb an airfield out of action :)

If enough bombs are dropped on an airfield Ai's & players will no longer be able to spawn there. ie. Spawn point is removed from the battle.

excellent news Salmo!

Roblex
Feb-16-2013, 04:22
Sounds fantastic!

I never got an answer to my earlier question about AI bombers ie you said that destroyed and damaged AI bombers are removed for the duration of the game and I asked if there are any extra measures in place to compensate for the fact that currently most AI formations are destroyed entirely as soon as they appear so with the current formation numbers and sizes we would not see AI bombers again after the first part of the game. Perhaps you could not answer until this latest change was announced ie your plan is that the AI bombers will be much more likely to destroy spawn points so you want to force us to escort the bombers more often which is more realistic. Currently the only reason to attack AI bombers is to get easy kills and the only reason to escort AI bombers is to use them as bait :D

It is a shame the RAF does not have fighter bombers so will find it a lot harder to close LW airfields but that's history. Of course if we want to be historic then maybe the victory conditions should change as the RAF and the LW had different goals. the RAF was not fighting to destroy the LW in France, it was fighting to keep its airfields open and stop the bombers. What currently counts as a 'Draw' should actually be an RAF victory as would destruction of the last Axis bomber. Imagine the frenzy on both sides as the last JU88 takes off!! :D

Last question, :-P, is this still in testing or has it gone live?

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-16-2013, 04:32
Sounds fantastic!
I never got an answer to my earlier question about AI bombers ie you said that destroyed and damaged AI bombers are removed for the duration of the game and I asked if there are any extra measures in place to compensate for the fact that currently most AI formations are destroyed entirely as soon as they appear .....your plan is that the AI bombers will be much more likely to destroy spawn points so you want to force us to escort the bombers more often which is more realistic. Currently the only reason to attack AI bombers is to get easy kills and the only reason to escort AI bombers is to use them as bait :D


Here's how I'd like to see this resolved.
Airfields could be knocked out if a certain volume of bombs is dropped within a specific time-window.
Let's say 6,000lb to 8,000lb within 5 minutes, or something like that.
I have no idea if this would be possible given the game's scripting options.

This, I think, would encourage the larger raids.

What we currently have is something similar to the old IL2:1946 where individual fast fighter bombers came through in one's and twos destroying targets through repetition.

What the above "map rule" would hopefully result in, in the large coordinated raids that were seen during the war.

Roblex
Feb-17-2013, 07:20
What we currently have is something similar to the old IL2:1946 where individual fast fighter bombers came through in one's and twos destroying targets through repetition.

What the above "map rule" would hopefully result in, in the large coordinated raids that were seen during the war.

While they did make large high altitude attacks on the airfields, the worst damage Biggin Hill ever took was from 9 JU88s at low level so there is still a place for them. I would like to see some big attacks though, maybe there could be a huge attack sometime early in the game (before the AI gets too depleted) that targets London. Give everyone plenty of warning by having the radar report bombers launching from several fields and having them gather in one place before crossing en-masse. That way the 109s can get ready to escort and the RAF can get in place to meet them and we can have the battle to end all battles :-)

Salmo
Feb-17-2013, 17:52
I never got an answer to my earlier question about AI bombers ie you said that destroyed and damaged AI bombers are removed for the duration of the game and I asked if there are any extra measures in place to compensate for the fact that currently most AI formations are destroyed entirely as soon as they appear so with the current formation numbers and sizes we would not see AI bombers again after the first part of the game.

Several bomber squadrons are located at various airfields, & there are a large number of planes in each flight at battle start. There should be enough flights with enough aircraft to keep bomber action going for some time into the battle. Bomber flights may or may not have fighter escorts. Fighter escorts may or may not be 'aces'.


Airfields could be knocked out if a certain volume of bombs is dropped within a specific time-window. Let's say 6,000lb to 8,000lb within 5 minutes, or something like that. I have no idea if this would be possible given the game's scripting options.

Done. An airfield can be bombed out of action. An airfield is destroyed if it recieves more than 10,000kg of bombs per 1,000m airfield radius. Thus it takes less bombs to disable smaller airfields & more bombs to disable larger airfields. At the moment airfields are not 'repaired' during the battle.

Roblex
Feb-19-2013, 02:22
Several bomber squadrons are located at various airfields, & there are a large number of planes in each flight at battle start. There should be enough flights with enough aircraft to keep bomber action going for some time into the battle. Bomber flights may or may not have fighter escorts. Fighter escorts may or may not be 'aces'.

AI escorts? I had not realised that was part of the new plan. Cool.