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Dutch
Nov-21-2012, 15:09
So, the latest instalment of me teaching myself some gunnery stuff......

I remember watching an interview with Pete Brothers, where he said that he had his convergence set to a 'pinpoint' for all guns, so I did that.
Then I remembered an interview with Nigel Rose, who said he always fired 'In short bursts, sort of - 'Brrrp!.....Brrrp!'

So I thought I'd combine the two theories, make some practice missions in FMB and practice, practice, practice.
'So What?' I hear you say, 'That's just AI offline! Nothing like being on the server!!' True, true, however as 71stAH_Code_E will testify, he witnessed me taking out a 109 on the server in just the fashion shown in the vid only last night.

My gunnery is getting a lot better with all this offline video making! :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OniMPmXplU8

Edit: Here are some half second bursts and deflection shooting in combat......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHjFOoEmpwY&feature=youtube_gdata

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-21-2012, 15:45
Nice shooting! I have outer guns at 180, inner at 200...fire in burst.

Great music btw :geek:


:salute:

Dutch
Nov-21-2012, 15:54
Thanks Mate!

I'm just looking for techniques to save ammo, is all. 14s is just too bloody short........:D

Robo.
Nov-22-2012, 05:18
Nice one. I also believe the .303 are very effective if you shoot well. And they bloody should be. :goofy The only time I am struggling is when it's my own fault - I am out of range, or too close or don't aim precisely (bit of a problem with the jumpy Hurricane elevator), when you aim well, he goes down, often in flames. Especially when you attack a 109 from dead 6 and he doesn't see you - half second squirk will do as you're very likely to hit the fuel tank. Best way of conserving ammo is shooting only if you know you're gonna hit.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-22-2012, 06:04
Thanks Mate!

I'm just looking for techniques to save ammo, is all. 14s is just too bloody short........:D

Hi dutch. A couple of simple rules - excuse me if I'm telling you to suck eggs! Maybe others will take some value from this.

1. I try to NEVER hold down the trigger and spray. Most of my bursts are even shorter than half a second. But they can often be quite rapid.
How many times do you see spitfires roll in a 109 with a long ghost-busters style stream of bullets going out like a hose? Too often.
Keep your firing to short, Sharp bursts. Just like the teach MG gunnery for infantry.

2. Try to learn your convergence and ONLY shoot at convergence, especially if you are behind them. When behind a 109 you need to make the kill quickly. Chances are (in more than half of the cases) you will be co-alt and with only a minor speed advantage, closing on his six at a manageable rate. If you get the shot wrong, he can turn the tables on you pretty quickly.

3. You're more likely to conserve ammo if you do high-defection shots. Some of the quickest kills I've got have been these snap-reaction shots in a tight turn. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but here is the reasoning: In the high deflection environment, you only get a sight on the enemy for a very short time. This results in the "snap" shot more often than not. Snap shots conserve ammo. You're more likely to be much close to your opponent in these high deflection environments (i..e in a turning fight).
Sitting behind a 109 is more likely to result in wasted ammo, especially if you're outside of convergence. Firstly the target is a lot smaller in your gun-sight (a little harder to get a bead on, small direction changes will throw off your shot) BUT conversely, the target is in your sight area for longer (because it is travelling in the same direction). So you are more likely to send out a long spray of bullets. The more time in your forward window, the more time you will spend shooting.

Robo.
Nov-22-2012, 06:37
Perfect reply pstyle, agree 100%! :thumbsup:

Dutch
Nov-22-2012, 08:52
Thanks Chaps! All good info. :D

Deflection - Now, that is planned to be the next 'teach myself' lesson, as long as I can manage the AI well enough..............:geek:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-22-2012, 09:36
Deflection - Now, that is planned to be the next 'teach myself' lesson, as long as I can manage the AI well enough..............:geek:

One golden rule for deflection:

1. Allow for loads!

I often cannot even see the target I am shooting at. More than half of my successful deflection shots are made at targets that are no longer in my window, but obscured by the engine cowling!

Dutch
Nov-22-2012, 09:40
One golden rule for deflection:

1. Allow for loads!

I often cannot even see the target I am shooting at. More than half of my successful deflection shots are made at targets that are no longer in my window, but obscured by the engine cowling!

Yah, I know! There's no bigger surprise than seeing a kill in your server window who you couldn't even see when you fired your guns! I might use a Hurri for the deflection lesson..........:D

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-22-2012, 10:46
The Luftwaffe's African Star, Hans-Joachim Marseille frequently noted that he waited until his opponent had disappeared beneath his nose before he'd open fire. Worked for him! :D

Dutch
Nov-22-2012, 17:10
Hmmm.......

Couldn't get the AI to behave properly for a full on deflection fest, but here's some mild deflection in the low level quick mission.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHjFOoEmpwY&feature=youtube_gdata

I've put this in the first post too, in case anyone looks for the first time. :D

ATAG_Septic
Nov-23-2012, 05:46
Great inspiration these vids Dutch.

I spent a couple of hours yesterday trying to emulate the recording, uploading and the aiming but without much success. I will persevere because I have managed to convince myself that a much longer convergence has some merit, perhaps for the less skilled pilot like myself for whom deflection shots are more difficult to set up and accomplish. I have managed to down 109s (AI testing) with what seem like similar quick bursts from 330 yards and am conserving ammunition much better.

I'm going to try again and see whether I can produce something for comparison but don't hold your breath.

Thanks,

Septic.

Dutch
Nov-23-2012, 07:53
I have managed to convince myself that a much longer convergence has some merit, perhaps for the less skilled pilot like myself for whom deflection shots are more difficult to set up and accomplish. I have managed to down 109s (AI testing) with what seem like similar quick bursts from 330 yards and am conserving ammunition much better.
I'm going to try again and see whether I can produce something for comparison but don't hold your breath.

That'd be brilliant Septic. As you might have noticed in the second vid, I started off a little outside convergence range, and finished up within convergence range. Only slightly off in both cases. One of my biggest faults though, is getting closer and closer and closer as an engagement goes on.

A comparison with much longer convergence would really show how a lot is down to personal preference. Give me a shout if you need any vid making/upload tips, coz I'd love to see that. Cheers! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-23-2012, 08:19
I filmed this over a year ago which reflects my success rate for successful deflection shooting -- about once per year. On a positive note, that means I'm due another one! :jump:

https://vimeo.com/29666575


https://vimeo.com/29666575

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-23-2012, 08:33
a lot is down to personal preference.

Agreed!

I like close convergence, but it's pretty rubbish if the 109 is more than 250m away!

A month or so back I did some experimenting with convergence out at 600 to 900 yard. I found that I could fire a couple of rounds in front of those high climbing 109s, if one or two hit his radiator, within a minute or so I was able to catch him - as his engine packed up. Having the range out there is good (really good) if you're into taking pot shots.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-23-2012, 08:44
Interesting point, PStyle.

I've recently moved my convergence out to 250 m (280 yds on my gunsight) and found I'm getting more kills than when I had my convergence much closer at 150 m or even 200 m. If I've found that I've moved in significantly closer than 250 m from behind, I simply move my pipper left along his wing about halfway (between wingtip and wingroot) which brings four guns into the fuselage area.

Different strokes and different situations.

(But I always like to hear other techniques like yours :thumbsup: )

Dutch
Nov-23-2012, 09:14
Another disadvantage to my set up of a pinpoint at 150m, is when attacking bombers. If you sit on his 5.30, steadily shooting at his tanks, you're very vulnerable to his gunners. But I never attack bombers like that. Actually I'm usually diving so fast I just crash into 'em. :D

Roblex
Nov-23-2012, 10:06
I think I have come to the decision that unless it is a bomber I am not going to know what I am shooting at unless I am within 200yds so there is little point in a longer convergence :-)

What I am playing with now is setting my inner two guns to 400yds so I can still try a potshot at a known enemy that is extending out of my range but if I am at 200yds those guns will still be quite close together and hopefully doing damage.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Nov-23-2012, 10:10
Different strokes and different situations.

Absolutely!

Here's a helpful (even if it is a little bit odd) way to think about your guns, and your convergence. This mainly applies to the red aircraft - all the guns being in the wings.

Put your two arms out in front of you, parallel to the ground.
Cross them over at the elbows, so that the right hand is now on the left side of your body, and the left hand is now on the

The gap between your arms along the way, between your arms (and NOT above them or below them) is the area in which your bullets are landing. The greater the gap between the arms, the less intense the concentration of bullets. As you can see at the point where your elbows are (where the arms cross over) is the most intense. This is your convergence range. Let's assume that's 150m. You'll notice that soon after the convergence, the gap between your arms gets wide very quickly.

Now, change it so that your arms are crossing at the wrists - let's assume that's now a 300m convergence.
You will now see that the convergence point is much further away from you. And ALSO that the gap between your arms is fairly even until the cross over, and then it would indeed stay quite even for a long way out after that. There isn't that point past convergence where suddenly your fire is of very low intensity.

This exercise above demonstrates the benefit of longer convergence. At any distance to target, you are more likely to get SOME bullets on target with a long convergence as opposed to a short convergence.

NOW, lets add in a new element to the mix. We can simulate turning our aircraft in a roll by dropping the right or left shoulder (lean to the right or the left). Imaging the enemy aircraft is flying away from you, with his wings level to the horizon. As you lean, you will notice that more and more of your bullets will fly above, or below his wings (unless he is at convergence range). In the 150m convergence range (elbows crossed) this effect is even more pronounced.

Once again, the longer convergence set to your guns means that in a turn, you are more likely to get some bullets onto the target, if he is outside of convergence.

You can try thinking about enemy aircraft in different attitudes relative to your own by using the arms like this. Imagine he is flying right to left, wings level to the horizon. Then imagine he is flying right to left, with his wings perpendicular to the horizon. How much of his aircraft is inside the gap between your arms? [[In some cases, you can get more bullets on target by rolling your wings, even if the convergence range is out, particularly if you have short convergence!]]

So, in light of the above (longer convergence increases likelihood that your will get some bullets on the target), why would you EVER use a short convergence?

The answer is simple: You are MUCH, much more likely to actually hit the guy if you get as close as you can. Getting right in close vastly reduces the deflection required. Getting in really close is about getting ALL your bullets on target, rather than just ensuring that you get SOME on target. Being a "good shot" is not necessarily about aiming right, but holding off on the trigger until the kill is a dead certainty. The skill is knowing when your target is at your convergence range. The shorter you set the range, the close your can get and the more likely you will be to clobbering him with everything.

So, this is, in my opinion why convergence really is up to personal preference. Different convergence ranges actually require you to fly in different ways. I am more likely to follow a 109 up in a climb if my convergence is set to long range.When I have short range convergence, I want the 109 to turn. I'm more likely to attack bombers from the six o'clock position with long range convergence. But I'm more likely to do zoom and boom a bomber with short range convergence.

For me, there is no such thing as "best" convergence; Each convergence setup requires the pilot to think about how he/she is flying too.

Dutch
Nov-23-2012, 10:56
For me, there is no such thing as "best" convergence; Each convergence setup requires the pilot to think about how he/she is flying too.

Spot on mate. It's kind of a chicken and egg situation. I fly close (too close) so need close convergence, but my convergence is set close so I need to fly close. Not sure which came first now. :D

But, I also believe that swapping and changing all the time in order to 'find the sweet spot' is possibly a mistake. Better to assess where you're most comfortable sighting and shooting offline, calculate what distance that is using the gunsight to measure the distance in a paused track or screenshot, then set your convergence and learn to fly and shoot at that convergence. If you tend to use short bursts up close set it at a point focus, if you tend to B&Z with longer bursts set a different range for each pair of guns.

But I'd say it's important to set it for the reasons you say, then fly according to those reasons. Makes perfect sense to me. :thumbsup:

Catseye
Dec-02-2012, 13:04
My experience regarding convergence when in a hard turning fight and pulling lead for the deflection shot is:

It is the VERTICAL convergence that matters more than the horizontal.

I set my vertical to around 500 M. (actually I have a percentage calculation I use depending on the horizontal) and this will enable you not to have to pull as much lead as you would if your vertical was set to 200 M or so.

It works very very good for me and particularly good when attacking bombers from 6 o'clock just outside my convergence zone and moving in.

Cheers

ps. I fly RED.