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Salmo
Dec-01-2012, 02:33
<snip>... There is really no incentive to land back home or even to make it back home other than personal glory right now.... <snip>

This is very true, & a real problem when building missions/scoring etc. I'm in favour of scoring points when objects are destroyed just because that reflects RL. ie kill the enemy benefits your army. But how to encourage players to RTB, and to value their plane and to value their life? There are many possible approaches, but we need to search for a solution that most players can live with.

Possible options for a player dying/not RTB'ing/losing plane:

1. A small time penalty before a player can respawn?
2. Player can only spawn from base further away from the action for their next mission?
3. Additional points scored to opposition for lost aircraft, lost life?
4. Downgrade aircraft type. Player can only take a lesser plane next mission?
5. The more players RTB for an army, the fewer good plane types available to the opposition?

Let your imagination run a bit! Nothing's verboden. This thread is for open discussion about possibilities of where we could take this game aspect.

ATAG_Septic
Dec-01-2012, 05:19
Hi Salmo,

Thanks so much for all your efforts.

I'd prefer a system that allows players to feel rewarded for landing, rather than incur a personal or team penalty for not doing so, in the cause of rewarding game play.

So perhaps you can only be rewarded your kills if your pilot doesn't die after landing or bailing over friendly territory and you contribute to the team resources if you land alive in friendly territory that way the player has the choice.

Slightly off-topic but there's a current tactic of re-arming and re-fueling at an enemy base, which is not very realistic. (I don't know whether this is possible on your mission Salmo)

I haven't looked at the stats page for months, are people motivated by that page more than by the mission? If so, then perhaps we should look at how this is presented and maintained? I say 'we' but I'm no help at all coding and I'm aware that Colander is already making incredible efforts.

Thanks again,

Septic.

Salmo
Dec-01-2012, 05:29
<snip ...Slightly off-topic but there's a current tactic of re-arming and re-fueling at an enemy base, which is not very realistic. (I don't know whether this is possible on your mission Salmo) ... <snip>

Can you speak to ATAG_Colander about the RR at enemy bases. RR is his baby not mine.

TURK_Enlem
Dec-01-2012, 06:20
I believe that a reward system is more suitable for integrity of community.

I don't know it is technically possible but here is my idea:

Give the 0.25 points bonus the pilot who brings back his plane to home with one or more kills,
Give the 0.05 points bonus the pilot who brings back his plane to home with no kills.

=AN=Felipe
Dec-01-2012, 08:18
The answer its real simple. Some players like to SIMULATE and others like to PLAY, they saw the simulator like a gameboy with colors, they dont know how to fly, dont know about technics or about disciplin...

Limiting number of planes for each side, like Air War (old AW IL2 1946), if you crash your plane or bail, team lost 1 pilot or 1 plane or both... Exemple: 200 Spit IIa 200 Spit Ia and 100 Blenheims, 500 pilots 200 crew... When planes start to be shot down and pilots killed in action, this numbers start to count down, when 0 pilots or 0 planes the team lose the battle...

Maybe its a better way... After this you guys must to do some kind of propaganda like a president campaign to awarn people.

Cya guys!

ATAG_Colander
Dec-01-2012, 09:25
Can you speak to ATAG_Colander about the RR at enemy bases. RR is his baby not mine.

Should be fixed on the next rotation.

Fried
Dec-01-2012, 11:31
The trouble with restricting planes or any team based penalties is that those that want to fly that way will be careful and try to get home after a sortie but there are players that never atempt to get home and dont care about any team scores, they only care about thier kill padding exercises, they either fly until out of fuel or ammo, ditch and get back into the action to pad thier personal score or if they get shot down they imeadiately log off and back on (saw on another post someone mentioned Mr Exit :) )

I know that you coding guru's are always finding new ways of bringing in new content with all this scripting stuff you talk about (which I will never understand) like <rr which is brilliant and would work well in a missioned based on your plane surviving, I would love to see scores only counting if you actually made it back to friendly soil and landing or even crash landing, but from what i remember from a previous thread thats not possible.

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-01-2012, 11:45
I believe that a reward system is more suitable for integrity of community.

I don't know it is technically possible but here is my idea:

Give the 0.25 points bonus the pilot who brings back his plane to home with one or more kills,
Give the 0.05 points bonus the pilot who brings back his plane to home with no kills.

+1 to both Enlem's and Septic's posts about positive rewarding of "good behaviour". :D

(It works with my dogs, Riley and Chloe, at least. In return for frequent treats they've stopped biting my ass. :thumbsup: ).

Personally, I don't sweat it too much. (The plane-ditching, that is. The ass-biting is a separate issue). From a fighter pilot's viewpoint, I just see more targets of opportunity if a couple of players tend to show up in a combat zone in fresh aircraft a little more quickly than others.

ATAG_Colander
Dec-01-2012, 12:06
random thought....
grant extra 5 points for doing RR

Plane damage = no RR though

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-01-2012, 12:17
I just wish we had to land kills. That's one of the biggest things in the right direction.

Catseye
Dec-01-2012, 12:27
Excerpts from a previous discussion on this subject.

"Catseye:
I have no full understanding of the programming capabilities of this Map nor the ATAG server and can appreciate the difficulties on both sides to get it all going smoothly.

My question, although simple, is: Is it possible to program that a player who exits before their aircraft crashes be prevented from rejoining for at least 10 extra minutes? . . . . . or, that the players tally be reduced to 0 points and they have to start all over again. . . ... . or if they do it for 3 times in a row, they cannot re-enter the server for the next 24 hrs.?

I think that back in the day of IL2 on Spits vs. 109's (I think), that points were not awarded for that sortie if you did not land your plane. I like this one as it forces the pilot to return to base at all costs to receive awards. Also, all pilot tallies for that mission sortie were re-set to 0. (No points for a dead pilot.) This I believe, is the most effective one of all for many, many reasons!

Just wondering.

Snapper:
Hi Cats,

Personally I prefer your second option (all points returned to zero). In speaking to a fellow Red pilot I learned he had taken a certain amount of abuse from an opposing pilot who had just PK'd him for exiting his now-dead plane before it crashed, thus robbing the incensed opponent of a human kill. According to the Red pilot, he checked via F2 that his plane remained perfectly trimmed out with a full tank of gas. He was looking at the best part of two hours before his plane crashed! This has happened to me a number of times where it has taken forever for my trimmed out plane, with me as a dead pilot has crashed.

So, it makes sense to cause the exiting pilot to lose his points, but it seems harsh to keep him strapped into his Marie Celeste plane for an inordinate time.

Yes, points are important. We all like to earn them and we'd hate to lose them. Losing them would likely prevent the capricious exiting of planes when bested by an opponent, but still give a reasonable choice for the PK'd unfortunate.


Catseye:
Hey Snapper,
I like that one and the last one - gotta land to make things count.

I lean towards the last one because it constrains pilots into making astute choices before engaging rather than like some, just plowing in and straffing airfields, head-on passes, dogfight mayhem and others. Creates more opportunities for conforming to the spirit of the mission map and the intentions of the programmer. Gotta bring the bird home to make that sortie's kills count.

All in all, good things are certainly coming into place.


Roblex:
I believe that you did get partial points for a crash landing or a bail in friendly territory. It's probably not possible with the scripts but it would be nice if the further you landed from a friendly field, the longer it was before you could launch again. Oleg should have modelled the pilot and made him run or swim home "

Doc
Dec-01-2012, 12:28
The answer its real simple. Some players like to SIMULATE and others like to PLAY, they saw the simulator like a gameboy with colors, they dont know how to fly, dont know about technics or about disciplin...


Perfect. This is the issue. You cannot avoid it unless buy your plane and keep it as long as you can. Distroy it and have to buy a new one. Now that would work. A pipe dream I know but your post hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

Catseye
Dec-01-2012, 12:48
Perfect. This is the issue. You cannot avoid it unless buy your plane and keep it as long as you can. Distroy it and have to buy a new one. Now that would work. A pipe dream I know but your post hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

Hi Doc,
No.401 squadron of which I am a member has aircraft assigned to pilots by serial number and then the pilot gets his "paint job" ie., call letters painted on. So the aircraft is my baby and I have to get her back - undamaged if possible.

Only so many aircraft exist and there is a resupply process whereby new aircraft are received from the factory. If destroyed aircraft exceed the factory supply then you can't fly. Also, there is a damaged repair process that can place an aircraft on the sidelines until supplies are received and installed.

Further, if you crash your aircraft on landing and it is destroyed, then the pilot has to spend some time in the hospital and cannot fly until medical clearance is received. (usually a set period of time)

This is a team approach that I cannot see working for the solo flier.

Ownership of the aircraft is a pretty good idea. . . . . just how does one invoke that in a public server? To me this just re-enforces the concept of "bring-em-back-alive" or no reward.

Cheers

Doc
Dec-01-2012, 13:12
Cats :salute:

Not happening. Just my thinking out loud.

If you had to purchase your plane once and it was serialized and no one else had that serial and these were tracked. You fly it all the time. You land at a base today and leave it. Come back next week and that plane is there. The others you fly with kept playing all week you were gone and have moved to a new base. You have to take off go there land rearm and refuel. Then form up.

You lose that plane its gone. Another $1 or 2 for a new one. New Serial and so on.

But this is way more advanced than CoD and way more involved. But it would be a much more expensive endeavour than we have now and probably out of reach by many. But your quality of play with increase.

First time I find that in a WWII sim I am there.

ATAG_Colander
Dec-01-2012, 13:14
Cats :salute:

Not happening. Just my thinking out loud.

If you had to purchase your plane once and it was serialized and no one else had that serial and these were tracked. You fly it all the time. You land at a base today and leave it. Come back next week and that plane is there. The others you fly with kept playing all week you were gone and have moved to a new base. You have to take off go there land rearm and refuel. Then form up.

You lose that plane its gone. Another $1 or 2 for a new one. New Serial and so on.

But this is way more advanced than CoD and way more involved. But it would be a much more expensive endeavour than we have now and probably out of reach by many. But your quality of play with increase.

First time I find that in a WWII sim I am there.

Hehehehehe tie plane losses with donations to keep the server up?
:devilish: :)

Doc
Dec-01-2012, 13:18
It will work and will happen. Persistent lives such as they have in Day-Z will become the norm. You die there you start all over. The whole concept is perfect for a combat flight sim. It's a natural fit. Watch and see. It will happen.

Maybe you earn credits towards another in your personal inventory for each hour of flight you do and you spend these earned credits. I don't know.

The thing is if what you have is free you abuse it. If you really had to work for it you cherish it.

ATAG_JTDawg
Dec-01-2012, 14:08
I an most players i play with do not do that , we do not bail out a perfectly fine plane, we land every one we can ! even have died many times trying to bring 1 in with a bit to much damage. An as far as bailing out early (before hitting ground ) talk to the BLUE players ! AS That seems to be more there thing ! With the rr thing going i like but dont like, an here is why i land it tells me 4.mins an ? secs to up to 5 mins Macro lands an gets a 2 min an some secs , so why so long for me? I like the rr function when on the defence maps , you can land an get back up any where on map , so cool , to give a guy a time out for bailing is just BS. i LIKE ATAG , THATS WHY WE FLY THERE . What you do in your squad is your thing! i'm here for the fun ..... come on now dont punish the majority becouse of a few , Next thing we will hear is he took off from a hanger or he landed on runway wrong , Keep your rules in your squad , now say you got 2 or 3 kills your landing , you get vulched no points an a time out , to me everybody dies in this game , for some of us it is punishment enough, From what i know team killing is only rule , as it should be , keep it simple an keep adding stuff an you will do great ! keep squad rules on your squad server , gimmie a break :ind:

ATAG_Colander
Dec-01-2012, 14:13
With the rr thing going i like but dont like, an here is why i land it tells me 4.mins an ? secs to up to 5 mins Macro lands an gets a 2 min an some secs , so why so long for me?

In short, the time depends in the amount of fuel it need to pump in your tank. Try RR'ing with a 3/4 tank and you'll get around 2.5 mins.

ATAG_JTDawg
Dec-01-2012, 14:18
:thumbsup: hmmm so now i understand , even if i take 60% an land it will fill me up to 100% :doh:

Roblex
Dec-01-2012, 15:00
1. It is naive to think that people will bring back their plane to help or avoid penalising their team. I reckon on any given map no more than 20%-25% are trying to win the map, the rest are just looking for quick kills. One of the pilots lauded by everyone for his awesome killing skills just bails as soon as he runs out of ammo or takes damage, so he can get back up quicker. For this reason personal penalties are the only way to make it work.

2. You have to be careful to avoid making people wait too long before they can fly again or giving them too poor a plane as you may just make them log off entirely and we don't always have enough people that we can afford to lose too many.

I would agree completely with not counting any kills that are not landed though I would give 75% points for a forced landing in friendly territory, 50% for a bail in friendly territory and maybe 35% for a forced landing in enemy territory and 25% for a bail in enemy territory. We need people to try to stay alive even when badly damaged. I know we have a problem detecting people that despawn early to avoid being counted as shot down but is it possible to not allocate points until a person is at zero velocity? That way people would need to stay in the chute until it lands or ride the aircraft until it has finished ditching. Of course that takes more time than just despawning and getting a new plane, even if forced to use a rear field, so maybe the basic aircraft is the best penalty. Once a person has taken off and then landed safely then they can revert to the plane of their choice. Even if they just do a circuit and land again they will have spent a while warming up and doing the circuit so will have suffered a penalty they will try to avoid next time and quite possibly once they are up in their mk1 Hurricane they might decide to stay up and fight. We should also be posting stats for how often they get back alive per launch and kill/death ratio.

A not entirely serious, but possibly easier to code, penalty might be to give pilots who dont RTB an unarmed plane to let them RTB at a friendly base in order to take a warplane up. Give them a high airstart from the place they died/ditched/despawned then they at least have some incentive to get as close to home as possible before giving up.

ChiefRedCloud
Dec-01-2012, 17:10
First, I am not a very good pilot but I do enjoy flying. And as such I try to my very best to get my plane back safe and sound or at the very least, survive. With this said I honestly believe the only way to approach this is a rewards system for A) brining your plane back. Hopefully in tack, but back. B) Surviving. I suspect some don't even have BAILOUT mapped on the keyboards as they may only be here to fly and shoot.

And above all else, keep it as simple as possible. Anything too complicated and you may empty the servers. Atleast those who have mistaken this for a console game may leave. Then where would we be? Just a hard core bunch of sim pilots. Now I ask (yes this part is sarcaism), is this what we want? :goofy

Catseye
Dec-01-2012, 20:09
Cats :salute:

Not happening. Just my thinking out loud.

If you had to purchase your plane once and it was serialized and no one else had that serial and these were tracked. You fly it all the time. You land at a base today and leave it. Come back next week and that plane is there. The others you fly with kept playing all week you were gone and have moved to a new base. You have to take off go there land rearm and refuel. Then form up.

You lose that plane its gone. Another $1 or 2 for a new one. New Serial and so on.

But this is way more advanced than CoD and way more involved. But it would be a much more expensive endeavour than we have now and probably out of reach by many. But your quality of play with increase.

First time I find that in a WWII sim I am there.

Hi Doc,
I understand.
A very unique solution to a thorny issue.

My thinking out loud was also in the vein of: How do you create the feeling of ownership without the actual purchase idea?

The concept of "ownership" I think is a major key to the issue and when coupled with personal penalties of some kind for breaking the lease, is a double incentive.

Cheers

Dutch
Dec-01-2012, 20:32
Bleh.

Wound them. Make them vent various gases. Make their vision go red, and make their engine vibrate a lot (it's extremely annoying with the ffb on a G940).

Those that choose to suddenly 'leave the game', well why should we bother even giving them thought?

Bollocks to 'em, I say.

There is a worrying theme developing here (in all seriousness for a change), that the only thing that matters is Spits v 109s. One on one dogfights. Points scoring. The performance of one fighter against another.

In this Keller and his mates are correct. The whole 'Cliffs of Dover' community is totally hung up on, well, guess what? Spits v 109s!!!

Unfortunately for this thread topic, there are two different schools of thought. There are the 'game players' who want to win points, therefore proving themselves a 'fighter ace', and there are the 're-enactors' who want to try to experience what it must have been like for all those blokes back in 1940.

I don't care about points. But I would like to be rewarded for getting my aircraft home again. I'd also like a penalty for people who inadvertently 'lose connection' just after they've been shot to bits.

So, anyone who inadvertently 'leaves the game' should be given a ten minute penalty for doing so. Anyone who gets their bleeding body and damaged aircraft back to base should be given either a better aeroplane or a significant points bonus.

So there.

:PP

Doc
Dec-01-2012, 20:42
Its hard to simulate. But I understand your frustration. :)

Catseye
Dec-01-2012, 20:53
Bleh.

Wound them. Make them vent various gases. Make their vision go red, and make their engine vibrate a lot (it's extremely annoying with the ffb on a G940).

:PP

There are times when I have vented various gases and didn't take a hit to have that happen. :)

Dutch
Dec-01-2012, 20:59
There are times when I have vented various gases and didn't take a hit to have that happen. :)

I vent those kind of gases all the time mate. The wife tried to get me medical help, but the bloke said 'What?! He eats Lamb Vindaloo three times a week??' He gave her an address for a counselling association called 'wives against curry'.

She still attends, three times a week, but me, I just keep farting........

ATAG_Colander
Dec-01-2012, 21:03
I vent those kind of gases all the time mate. The wife tried to get me medical help, but the bloke said 'What?! He eats Lamb Vindaloo three times a week??' He gave her an address for a counselling association called 'wives against curry'.

She still attends, three times a week, but me, I just keep farting........

I imagine she attends the same three times a week that you are getting Lamb Vindaloo :)

Dutch
Dec-01-2012, 21:07
I imagine she attends the same three times a week that you are getting Lamb Vindaloo :)

Strangely enough, she always attends the day after. Funny that, innit? :)

Robo.
Dec-02-2012, 05:23
One thing that would certainly help is disabling the Alt+F2 thing. It already works on Repka server - it will throw you back in the a/c if you try that key combo. On ATAG, many pilots don't bother flying back and just respawn. I had no idea they abuse the system like that until someone told me last night. Some do so right after you set them alight. :)

Then full points awarded only to planes rtb'd safely, 50% if you survive but bale out or crashland etc.

Roblex
Dec-02-2012, 07:29
50% if you survive but bale out or crashland etc.

I would prefer to encourage people to put it down on the ground where possible rather than just bail at the first sign of trouble.

It has just occurred to me, we have stats for what percentage damage we did to a plane so we must have a percentage value for what damage has happened to our own plane? If we do then we can simply multiply any points we gain by that percentage eg land undamaged and you get all your points, crash land and you will break props etc but still get maybe 50%

Ok that does take into account being in friendly or enemy territory so....

Landing intact gives 50% points but is doubled for being on friendly field.
A crash landing with 50% damage would then give 25% x 2 if on friendly or just 25% if in enemy territory
You would have to artificially allocate 10% score for a bail-out (as long as they wait to touch down) which is doubled if they land in friendly territory.

9./JG52 Lopp
Dec-02-2012, 07:44
So if I fly blue and land in England and <rr can I get some of that 100oct?

Roblex
Dec-02-2012, 11:12
So if I fly blue and land in England and <rr can I get some of that 100oct?

No problem, we will swap it for some of those 88mm cannon shells your 109s seem to be firing :-P

ATAG_Colander
Dec-02-2012, 11:20
No problem, we will swap it for some of those 88mm cannon shells your 109s seem to be firing :-P

You don't need them. Your pea-shooters do just fine with the paper covering the 109's wings and rads :)

Catseye
Dec-02-2012, 12:24
So if I fly blue and land in England and <rr can I get some of that 100oct?

Only if you bring a case of Schnapps with you!

Doc
Dec-03-2012, 09:45
I've been thinking about this and discussing this with a lot of wise people. And after careful consideration there isn't anything you can do that will make those who are in this for a cheap and quick thrill return their plane. Heck I've returned rental cars empty at the airport and never went back to the counter. I've left golf carts in the packing lot.

Some people will just disconnect and leave because they don't take it as serious as you guys. So to add these things about returning the plane and ping restriction serves only to discourage 5-10% of the populace.

Lets not worry about these tiny things and just have fun! What do ya say?! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

P.S.

I was told that people who just don't care...don't care. There's nothing one can do to make that horse drink the water.

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-03-2012, 10:11
I've been thinking about this and discussing this with a lot of wise people. And after careful consideration there isn't anything you can do that will make those who are in this for a cheap and quick thrill return their plane. Heck I've returned rental cars empty at the airport and never went back to the counter. I've left golf carts in the packing lot.

Some people will just disconnect and leave because they don't take it as serious as you guys. So to add these things about returning the plane and ping restriction serves only to discourage 5-10% of the populace.

Lets not worry about these tiny things and just have fun! What do ya say?! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

P.S.

I was told that people who just don't care...don't care. There's nothing one can do to make that horse drink the water.

+1

Wise words, Doc.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-03-2012, 11:53
I've been thinking about this and discussing this with a lot of wise people. And after careful consideration there isn't anything you can do that will make those who are in this for a cheap and quick thrill return their plane.

Yup. I agree with this sentiment.

One could conceivably build a map with the following

1. Spawn windows, i.e. like they do in First Person Shooter games to simulate "waves" of attackers. You get put in a holding area (or in a disabled aircraft in a hanger) when you die, and all those waiting to spawn have to sit there until the server opens the next spawn window (which might be once every ten or 15 minutes).
2. Spawn locations away from the front (font-line bases for landing only).

But both of the above would deter players I think. We're only dealing with a player base of a few hundred in this game. In the end, we can chase after high-realism map/mission settings (which I would personally endorse), but I fear we would lose more players from the server as a result.

Doc
Dec-03-2012, 12:03
So if I fly blue and land in England and <rr can I get some of that 100oct?

You dang sure can bro! You can even get yourself a nice hot figgy duff. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Catseye
Dec-03-2012, 12:26
I've been thinking about this and discussing this with a lot of wise people. And after careful consideration there isn't anything you can do that will make those who are in this for a cheap and quick thrill return their plane. Heck I've returned rental cars empty at the airport and never went back to the counter. I've left golf carts in the packing lot.

Some people will just disconnect and leave because they don't take it as serious as you guys. So to add these things about returning the plane and ping restriction serves only to discourage 5-10% of the populace.

Lets not worry about these tiny things and just have fun! What do ya say?! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

P.S.

I was told that people who just don't care...don't care. There's nothing one can do to make that horse drink the water.

Hi Doc,
I cannot agree with you.
If you fly RED for any length of time you will see that a certain pilot will continue to exit after he goes Winchester just to get another aircraft and get into the air as quickly as possible. This issue with this certain pilot is that he is a gamebreaker for most of us as the frustration when he is in the air is compounded by two things. His ability to kill by using his own side as bait and not participating as a team player coupled with the quick return to the killing fields for some more fodder. Not to mention this coupled with an air of mockery and false elitism based upon what? - His ability to get back in and do more of the same by exiting and getting back asap! This leaves a very very sour taste on the Red side by his relentless presence in the air. How would you feel to have the feeling of being continually and unfairly set-upon by someone?

By having him have to return and land to secure another aircraft would give pilots some relief between his appearance or even get a chance to kill him as he returns. By exiting, he robs the other side of any chance of at least some semblance of comeuppance. Not cricket old boy!!

This is the most blatant example of what NOT using an encouragement to return to base to get another aircraft is.

So, this is a real issue and can't be just thrown off as "Oh well, lets just forget it and move on - there's a good chap." This approach just trivializes the issue for a great many!

Doc
Dec-03-2012, 13:12
Catseye

We know its all about him. The ping the landing in the water. It doesn't matter.

The game is a game and its all it will be. A few people are very good at it and a bunch are average. But all of them think of themselves as exceptional.

The fact is there are people who come in today and play for a while and leave. He himself was one that took a break.

Lets look at all the others that were here for a while and no longer here. There is no way I can support or be a part of a group that is allowed to rub out someone because of a vendetta simply because they hand your butts to you now and then.

You see this guy probably gets a bigger kick out of the fact people post things like this about him.

He probably never ever checks his stats and just doesn't care.

But there is no way I will support something such as this. This is obviously an attempt to backdoor a ban on someone in which there isn't a reason to.

There are a lot of fine people on this server and not everyone has a l33t ping. I fly red to and have not had any problem seeing him because of the latency.

You need to get over or around the fact that this is a game to most. Not a life. And this is simply something they do that they get enjoyment from and nothing more.

Doc

P.S. As long as I am part of it this server we will always be an open server to the global public and we are here to help anyone that wishes to fly and they can fly with us me or anyone they wish to fly with. We're are not in any way exclusive or snobs. We welcome everyone to ATAG server.

We provide an open TS server for anyone to use - we're not snobs to run one just for us.

Roblex
Dec-03-2012, 14:21
Catseye

We know its all about him.

.........

This is obviously an attempt to backdoor a ban on someone in which there isn't a reason to.



Not true. This is not about any one player. We are simply discussing ways in which we could encourage, not force, everyone to fly like their life depends on it and not turn this fantastic server into yet another fly-die-fly-die deathmatch furball arena. I fully understand that having put together pretty much the only well populated COD server we have you don't want to scare people away but this is why we are having this discussion, to see if we can come up with something to improve the experience for serious flyers while not scaring away the more casual players. Ultimately I think that even the casual players would gain from the extra thrill that caring whether you live or die gives you.

Doc
Dec-03-2012, 14:58
Not true. This is not about any one player. We are simply discussing ways in which we could encourage, not force, everyone to fly like their life depends on it and not turn this fantastic server into yet another fly-die-fly-die deathmatch furball arena. I fully understand that having put together pretty much the only well populated COD server we have you don't want to scare people away but this is why we are having this discussion, to see if we can come up with something to improve the experience for serious flyers while not scaring away the more casual players. Ultimately I think that even the casual players would gain from the extra thrill that caring whether you live or die gives you.

Read what he wrote please. It's in there.

We have the most popular server because we don't have petty crap like this. :PP

Doc
Dec-03-2012, 15:02
This is my last comment on this.

I support the idea of you personally flying back. It's just for personal gain.

But if you start making rules for this and that and all this other petty whiny nanny nanny boo boo he de-spawned before he went BANG then I don't agree.

The less rules you have the better everyone's enjoyment will be. :thumbsup:

Peace out homies.

ATAG_JTDawg
Dec-03-2012, 15:59
I agree with Doc , people will fly how they want, like Doc said you can bring a horse to water , but you can't make him drink, I also agree with MR X When he said on a differant post the only warping i see is on Salmo's map , which is sometimes major. We can all make suggestion as long as your nice, AN remember your not calling the shots ! As this is ATAG there server an forum , My biggest complaint right now is as follows 1. maybe time to switch things up a bit , Say on Dunkirk map keep planes already there add 100 oct no e4 , I think the couple planes would be a game changer to more fun for both . 2. The manston base raping map is to me really not FUN, AN I'M NOT AGAINST BASE RAPING AS A MISSION HERE OR THERE. But 6 hours is to me very very boring. an i'm sure atag can see when certain maps are up , the numbers go way down. But by maybe putting some bombers up flying from france , would change several things . We are to the point we fly through 3 hangers killing 1 -2 even 3 sitting there hoping they are safe. But here inlies the problem , some folks really like it , To me the way the mission is made dictates how the majority will fly , Atag has made missions at every level of play from deck to over 20,000 ft. Now no. 3 Salmo's map = very good way farther then the game allows. even getting in a group of 4 or 5 of your team leads to warping back an forth , an is very hard to fly formation . and becouse of this the numbers drop off in my oppinion, not to lack of eye candy content or anything else, besides the warping. But i believe he can figure it out , ( i think its all the stuff that pops up on screen ) done with that now . So at the end of the day we all have free will , an can come an go as we please , I would hate to see ATAG start putting in punnishments in place for not doing this or that. (but it is there server there rules ) But give me a 15 min. penilty for having to bail to get the phone , or while catching the bugs on it , there is just to many things that can turn out to be unfair to the majority. Give a guy a 15 min time out he will go some where else , it's that simple . This is a flight sim (not reality) at the end of the day if i had fun with my squad an friends it was a good day :salute:

Doc
Dec-03-2012, 17:12
hehe

On the base raping map...its a rapefest.

It's always the guys form Eastchurch going to Manston and trashing it.

Then the guys at Manston want payback and go to Eastchurch.

Then the vicious cycle starts.


Before long you got 8 guys in 109's wiping out everything that moves there. Then the reds shift to Rochester or something and go there. It's a nasty cycle.

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-03-2012, 17:22
I agree with Doc , people will fly how they want, like Doc said you can bring a horse to water , but you can't make him drink, I also agree with MR X When he said on a differant post the only warping i see is on Salmo's map , which is sometimes major. We can all make suggestion as long as your nice, AN remember your not calling the shots ! As this is ATAG there server an forum , My biggest complaint right now is as follows 1. maybe time to switch things up a bit , Say on Dunkirk map keep planes already there add 100 oct no e4 , I think the couple planes would be a game changer to more fun for both . 2. The manston base raping map is to me really not FUN, AN I'M NOT AGAINST BASE RAPING AS A MISSION HERE OR THERE. But 6 hours is to me very very boring. an i'm sure atag can see when certain maps are up , the numbers go way down. But by maybe putting some bombers up flying from france , would change several things . We are to the point we fly through 3 hangers killing 1 -2 even 3 sitting there hoping they are safe. But here inlies the problem , some folks really like it , To me the way the mission is made dictates how the majority will fly , Atag has made missions at every level of play from deck to over 20,000 ft. Now no. 3 Salmo's map = very good way farther then the game allows. even getting in a group of 4 or 5 of your team leads to warping back an forth , an is very hard to fly formation . and becouse of this the numbers drop off in my oppinion, not to lack of eye candy content or anything else, besides the warping. But i believe he can figure it out , ( i think its all the stuff that pops up on screen ) done with that now . So at the end of the day we all have free will , an can come an go as we please , I would hate to see ATAG start putting in punnishments in place for not doing this or that. (but it is there server there rules ) But give me a 15 min. penilty for having to bail to get the phone , or while catching the bugs on it , there is just to many things that can turn out to be unfair to the majority. Give a guy a 15 min time out he will go some where else , it's that simple . This is a flight sim (not reality) at the end of the day if i had fun with my squad an friends it was a good day :salute:

Dawg,

You are spot on. Trust me in saying we are not going to penalize people's flying time or any of that jazz on how they want to game the game in a public server. The rules are still pretty simple - don't shoot at your own team mates, try to avoid shoulder shooting, all enemies are fair game regardless of their location, distress, in the air or on the ground.

The only way I can think of encouraging people to try to make it home is via a scoring system. I have said this since day one. We need to account for scoring like old IL2 and FBDj. My memory may be a little out of touch here, but the main premise on scoring involved landing your kills and landing them back on your side of the lines. If you shot down a single engined fighter, landing that kill will award you 100 points. If you died after you shot down that fighter you only got 10% or 10 points. Same goes for bombing: Tanks equal so much, ships equal so much, vehicles equal so much, artillery equal so much and if you die after the attack and didn't make it back home you only receive 10% of your score. If I remember correctly bailing out you received 30% and ditching might have been 50%.

But the whole premise is say pilot A goes and gets 5 kills in one sortie. He then dies, bails, or w/e before making it back home. If they were all single engine fighters he would only be left with 50 points for 5 kills. While pilot B goes and flies more conservatively and gets a single kill, then gets out of the fight to go home and land his kill, he'll receive a 100 points. Well it won't take long before pilot A who's getting all these kills realizes that the people getting less kills are scoring almost 2 to 3 times as much. Right now the only competition going is the kill count. Scores are in 1's. This needs to reflect the old game.

The other thing that needs to happen is we need to come up with a fly where as you can only exit your plane and spawn another one if you are A.) landed B.) bailed out, or C.) dead. Why it was so hard to keep it like old IL2 I will never know. But there's no disconnecting if that piece was part of the game. The only way it's gonna happen is someone closing the game through the task manager.

These are some thoughts I've had and expressed with a few members quite a few times now. The best way to encourage someone is by that someone having something competitive-wise to be encouraged to go after. Again, right now we only have kills. That's it. So it makes sense that people would go after those and not worry about the rest. Have a nice stats system incorporated into the game like FBDj of old, where the top fighter and bomber pilots are displayed, sorties are recorded, kills must be landed and so on and so forth and you'll see a HUGE change on the server. The question is, who can make something like this? And is it even possible with the tools/code available within cliffs.

Roblex
Dec-03-2012, 17:46
The only way I can think of encouraging people to try to make it home is via a scoring system.

I have no problem with that. Nobody can complain that we are stopping players from flying as stupidly as they want but those who want a reward for staying alive can get some satisfaction from scores & streaks & k/d ratios.
Someone was saying that it is shame we can't find a way of making people want to keep their own personal aircraft in one piece without charging them real money to replace it but why not give people a reason for wanting to keep their own personal *body* in one piece? :-) The new ATAG stat page gives a nice summary for each player as well as the bare stats so maybe if we showed the best career for that player eg the longest kill streak or highest score before he got killed.

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-03-2012, 18:00
I have no problem with that. Nobody can complain that we are stopping players from flying as stupidly as they want but those who want a reward for staying alive can get some satisfaction from scores & streaks & k/d ratios.
Someone was saying that it is shame we can't find a way of making people want to keep their own personal aircraft in one piece without charging them real money to replace it but why not give people a reason for wanting to keep their own personal *body* in one piece? :-) The new ATAG stat page gives a nice summary for each player as well as the bare stats so maybe if we showed the best career for that player eg the longest kill streak or highest score before he got killed.

I agree. I personally don't care about the stats per say, but I know there's a whole slew of people that check on them regularly. If there was a top 10 fighter pilot / top 10 bomber pilot section mixed into them on the main page, people would be figuring out just how to get on that list. Stats are a good way of collecting data and people who have the best stats should be awarded for it. It's a win / win to me. I remember several bomber sorties in old IL2 of getting 3400+ points in a sortie, but I also remember how upsetting it was when I did the same and got shot down, only to receive 340 instead. It really does make you want to stay alive.

To me it doesn't get much better than a system just like this: http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/index.php?page=spit_hsfxstats

And even better, look at the individual stuff: http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/index.php?page=spit_hsfxstats

Everyone wants their name in the top 10. This is the only way people will fly differently, because people go after what gives them points, or in Cliff's case right now, kills. Give em points as well, and we'll have a completely different scenario take place.

Roblex
Dec-05-2012, 01:52
I don't think I will ever get on a Top 10 list! I just want a record that 'Once I managed to get a whole five kills before I died' :D

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-05-2012, 06:27
How about honoring pilots by their "land ratio" in the stats pages?

It seems to me that the mark of the best pilots in terms of the all-round flying we are trying to encourage is their frequency of executing a landed sortie.

Maybe "land ratio" should be the primary list function?

Although, as with anything, you could juke this stat by doing a bunch of quick take-off and landings.....

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
Dec-05-2012, 11:53
How about honoring pilots by their "land ratio" in the stats pages?

It seems to me that the mark of the best pilots in terms of the all-round flying we are trying to encourage is their frequency of executing a landed sortie.

Maybe "land ratio" should be the primary list function?

Although, as with anything, you could juke this stat by doing a bunch of quick take-off and landings.....

Agree. Kills per safe landing is a mark of a great fighter pilot.

Also, repeated take-offs/landings would not improve your ratio, it would hurt it.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-05-2012, 12:15
Agree. Kills per safe landing is a mark of a great fighter pilot.

Also, repeated take-offs/landings would not improve your ratio, it would hurt it.

Right, with kills per landing. This is a good stat!.. and a good start!
But we'd need to add in kills-per-landing per sortie. Otherwise you could just abandon your aircraft all the time, and all your kills would get compared to a single landing event.

Also, you can't just base "sortie" on spawns, because many spawns result in abandons whilst still in the spawn point (i.e. those bases with broken spawn points). So you need to use take-offs as the measure of a sortie, not spawns. This would not matter if the spawn points (Gravesend, Biggin hill, Rochester etc...) were fixed though.

So the formula we would need is this:
Landings/ Takeoffs x Kills.

If you took off 10 times, and landed 8 times you'd have an 80% land radio. Let's say you got 5 kills, you "score" would be 4 (.8 * 5)
If you took off 10 times and landed only once, but got 10 kills, your "score" would be only 1 (1/10 * 10)
Fly 10 missions and never land, no matter how many kills you get, your score remains at 0.

Doc
Dec-05-2012, 13:22
So that mean when you leave your den you must come back with your kill!!!

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
Dec-05-2012, 17:35
I see what you're saying now pstyle. I was thinking more kills per death where any sortie not ending in a safe landing = death.

Ohms
Dec-05-2012, 18:05
Let just have fun an shoot each other down. Play as you like , the largest group already play a get it home if possible format.

Doc
Dec-05-2012, 18:13
:):thumbsup:

ATAG_JTDawg
Dec-05-2012, 19:31
Let just have fun an shoot each other down. Play as you like , the largest group already play a get it home if possible format.

:thumbsup:

Roblex
Dec-06-2012, 02:30
So the formula we would need is this:
Landings/ Takeoffs x Kills.

If you took off 10 times, and landed 8 times you'd have an 80% land radio. Let's say you got 5 kills, you "score" would be 4 (.8 * 5)
If you took off 10 times and landed only once, but got 10 kills, your "score" would be only 1 (1/10 * 10)
Fly 10 missions and never land, no matter how many kills you get, your score remains at 0.

Am I missing something?
Say I take off 4 times and get a kill each time but only land twice. Your formula would give (2/4)*4 which is a score of 2.0
If I then did 6 more quick takeoffs and landings I get (8/10) * 4 which is 3.2 so I have increased my score by just doing circuits at a rear field!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-06-2012, 10:43
Am I missing something?
Say I take off 4 times and get a kill each time but only land twice. Your formula would give (2/4)*4 which is a score of 2.0
If I then did 6 more quick takeoffs and landings I get (8/10) * 4 which is 3.2 so I have increased my score by just doing circuits at a rear field!

Hi Roblex,

Yes. If you did 6 more quick takeoffs and landings your landing ratio would go up, so yes, your score would increase, provided your kills remained the same. This is a wee (slash a major) problem with the formula -well spotted!

I expect that almost all easy statistical formulas can be "gamed" in some way like this.

You COULD then divide the score again by the total number of missions flown to reduce this effect if you really wanted. But there are probably ways to game that stat too.

By the way - for all the "we're just having fun" crowd - thanks for your input. I'm not seriously suggesting we chase after stats. I just happen to find thinking about this (i.e. statistical ways to score and influence game play) quite fun anyways - mainly cos I'm a geek. So, if you'll allow us the chance also to have a little fun with our speculations, that would be nice ;)

ATAG_Colander
Dec-06-2012, 10:50
Hi Roblex,

Yes. If you did 6 more quick takeoffs and landings your landing ratio would go up, so yes, your score would increase, provided your kills remained the same. This is a wee (slash a major) problem with the formula -well spotted!

I expect that almost all easy statistical formulas can be "gamed" in some way like this.

You COULD then divide the score again by the total number of missions flown to reduce this effect if you really wanted. But there are probably ways to game that stat too.

By the way - for all the "we're just having fun" crowd - thanks for your input. I'm not seriously suggesting we chase after stats. I just happen to find thinking about this (i.e. statistical ways to score and influence game play) quite fun anyways - mainly cos I'm a geek. So, if you'll allow us the chance also to have a little fun with our speculations, that would be nice ;)


Well, actually what made you an ace in RL was not getting kills on every sortie but the total number of kills without getting killed your self :D

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-06-2012, 11:04
Well, actually what made you an ace in RL was not getting kills on every sortie but the total number of kills without getting killed your self :D

True!
But we can't measure that in game :(. Because some types of abandon (Alt+F2, or map-spawning before the aircraft crashes) do not count as a player death!

PLUS, the intent here is to try use the stats system to encourage (not dictate) a specific type of gameplay.

I don't think we will find a really good working system... in the end - as many other posters have identified, people play their own way because it's fun for them - real life war is different - mainly because of the fun factor I would imagine........ :D

ATAG_Colander
Dec-06-2012, 11:43
True!
But we can't measure that in game :(. Because some types of abandon (Alt+F2, or map-spawning before the aircraft crashes) do not count as a player death!

PLUS, the intent here is to try use the stats system to encourage (not dictate) a specific type of gameplay.

I don't think we will find a really good working system... in the end - as many other posters have identified, people play their own way because it's fun for them - real life war is different - mainly because of the fun factor I would imagine........ :D

All you need is for the kills not to be "added" until landing. Yes, you will loose some kills when the server rotates and you couldn't land in time but that shouldn't affect much.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-06-2012, 11:58
All you need is for the kills not to be "added" until landing. Yes, you will loose some kills when the server rotates and you couldn't land in time but that shouldn't affect much.

Huzzah! you might have hit the nail on the head!
That would certainly be a simple and effective solution.

Catseye
Dec-06-2012, 12:35
All you need is for the kills not to be "added" until landing. Yes, you will loose some kills when the server rotates and you couldn't land in time but that shouldn't affect much.

Spot on!
Funny how the obvious eludes.
Can't help but feel like Penny in the "Big Bang Theory" just pointed Sheldon to the obvious. :)
Thank you Colander!

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-06-2012, 12:39
What we be great is if we could incorporate a way to keep a pilot in his plane until they have landed, bailed, or died. I think it's been tried before from others but never really panned out. The downside is plane switching would have to be disabled. (no more Alt+F2). And we would lose the ability to hop in your buddies plane as a gunner if you get shot down near him. But it would stop the disco's and people simply leaving their plane when they get shot down.

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-06-2012, 12:41
Spot on!
Funny how the obvious eludes.
Can't help but feel like Penny in the "Big Bang Theory" just pointed Sheldon to the obvious. :)
Thank you Colander!

Haha, that is a heck of a solution.


Colander,

Do you think it's possible to adjust our stats and the in-game stats that way? :geek:

ATAG_Deacon
Dec-06-2012, 13:01
Haha, that is a heck of a solution.


Colander,

Do you think it's possible to adjust our stats and the in-game stats that way? :geek:

+1

As a take on that, is there a way to have an individual players stats reset to 0 if they're killed &/or bail over enemy territory (captured)?

For those who play, just to play...then it would have no impact on your enjoyment. For those who look at stats and k/d ratios it would be a good thing.

Just a thought :recon:

ATAG_Colander
Dec-06-2012, 13:21
Haha, that is a heck of a solution.


Colander,

Do you think it's possible to adjust our stats and the in-game stats that way? :geek:

I'll see what (and when) I can do...

Roblex
Dec-06-2012, 15:56
Well, actually what made you an ace in RL was not getting kills on every sortie but the total number of kills without getting killed your self :D

Agree. I have always found the 'Streak' statistic more realistic and more desirable than the 'kills/deaths' 'kills/sorties' ratios. You should not be aiming to get more kills than deaths, you should be aiming for ZERO deaths even if that means getting fewer kills per day :hide:

Roblex
Dec-06-2012, 16:30
All you need is for the kills not to be "added" until landing. Yes, you will loose some kills when the server rotates and you couldn't land in time but that shouldn't affect much.

The problem there is that in real life a pilot was still awarded the kills if he put down in a friendly field or bailed out over friendly territory. You even kept the kills if you ended up spending the remainder of the war in Stalagluft III :-)

Personally I would count the kills any time a person came to a full stop alive so that means a successful landing, ditch or crash-landing or staying in the chute all the way down. It is only people who despawn in mid-air or just keep flying suicidally to see how many they can take with them that I would withhold kills from. I realise that does not suit everyone, I am just expressing a personal preference :devilish:

ATAG_Colander
Dec-06-2012, 16:42
Here's the thing...
I don't think the game reports differently exiting the plane with escape or by bailing out.
From the plane point of view, the pilot abandoned it in both situations.

I'll have to check that but I don't know when I'll have the time.

Roblex
Dec-07-2012, 02:43
Here's the thing...
I don't think the game reports differently exiting the plane with escape or by bailing out.
From the plane point of view, the pilot abandoned it in both situations.

I'll have to check that but I don't know when I'll have the time.

What it would take, in a perfect world, would be the ability to see how fast a person was travelling when he despawned. If you had landed in a plane or parachute then you would be at zero velocity when you despawned. If you were still moving then you must have been PK'd or despawned too early. from what you say, the game has trouble tracking the pilot separately to the plane when someone bails out so that would be problematic but, if the vehicle velocity *was* available then you could at least confirm a person managed to land or ditch alive.

Re bailing & despawning mid-air, I thought that the original IL2 tracked the parachute as a separate vehicle, which would make it possible to confirm a pilot hit the silk rather than the escape key, but maybe I am wrong. You seem to be saying that the game counts teleporting from a damaged plane as being the same as bailing out and parachuting to safety; that is not good :-( Maybe I should test that out by bailing out from healthy planes five times followed by despawning from healthy planes five times to see what the stats show. It will ruin my stats but they are pretty bad at the moment anyway :-)

palker
Dec-07-2012, 05:19
Just let the players play the game as they want, because you know it is a game and they play it for fun. And if their idea of fun is to go in to crazy dogfights and then bail out if they lost the fight who are you to judge/punish them for enjoying the game. Stop trying to force your idea of how the game should be played on everyone and let players be themselves. Of course that some rules are necessary but I would just keep them to: Do not shoot on friendly aeroplanes that's all.
Punishing players for not being you will not achieve anything.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-07-2012, 06:09
Just let the players play the game as they want, because you know it is a game and they play it for fun. And if their idea of fun is to go in to crazy dogfights and then bail out if they lost the fight who are you to judge/punish them for enjoying the game. Stop trying to force your idea of how the game should be played on everyone and let players be themselves. Of course that some rules are necessary but I would just keep them to: Do not shoot on friendly aeroplanes that's all.
Punishing players for not being you will not achieve anything.

Palker, I think you have completely misinterpreted what's going on in this thread. I suggest you read it in some more detail before resorting to the use of words like "punishing", "judgement" "forcing your idea". Your reply has a surprisingly judgmental appearance, which is hypocritical too.

Doc
Dec-07-2012, 09:00
How does this affect players that don't care or check their stats? Perhaps the only person that is frustrated about this issue is the original poster and in a very small minority.

The 99%'ers come here and fly with a desk full of empty beer cans, a TV remote buried somewhere in the middle of them and having a face sucking women on your lap sometimes while you fly.

Why would you think that it would mean anything more to those I just described because you make this happen? I cannot seem stress that most people just don't care about all that as much as the person that is the genesis of this topic.

Other people don't take it or anyone here as serious as YOU DO wont change Mr. I_HATE_YOU_BECAUSE_YOU_ RUIN_MY_STAT_NUMBERS. AND HE WONT EVER CARE!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-07-2012, 10:39
Doc, to whom are you replying in your post?
I can't work out what you're trying to say....

ATAG_Colander
Dec-07-2012, 10:40
For me the stats could consist of a single number:
Number of deaths.

That is the only thing I sometimes look at.

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-07-2012, 10:48
Hi Palker, and welcome to the forum. Please stop in at the Welcome section at the top of the forum to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your flight sim background! :thumbsup:

This is becoming a long thread with many posts and some very different points of view. It's important, however, to read them through since we've already reinforced the fact that ATAG will not, nor ever planned to, penalize any player for simply playing the game as he sees fit -- so long as the very few rules are not broken.

As Doc says so colourfully, there will be those who don't care about the stats and are not influenced by them one whit in terms of gameplay. Personally, I use the stats as a means to help improve my gameplay (as I judge it) by trying to increase my kill rate per sortie (ie spawning). Now that Recoilfx has made Colander's excellent stats more iPad-friendly, I can better access ALL of the numbers -- particularly "character deaths". For me, this is a turning point. As others have noted, it's better to have perhaps less kills in favour of higher survivability. So in that regard, I'd be highly in favour of a column recording kill/death ratio. This WOULD influence my gameplay.

Further to that, I'd also be in favour of only "landed" kills being awarded, with an adjusted scale for crash landings and/or bailouts on friendly soil. It would make me think very hard about "base-raping", sitting on an enemy bomber's tail, abandoning my damaged a/c over water, etc etc. For me, this system of scoring would enhance the feeling of immersion for me and like-minded mates. For those who never (rarely) check their stats, life would go on -- or get snuffed out -- just the same on the ATAG Server. This is good. The many pilots who are just interested in shooting other planes or blowing up stuff simply for the joy of it add a dynamic randomness to the server environment that adds to the unpredictable nature of the air combat experience. I'll never really know if the 109 I'm squaring off against really wants to win-and-survive, or just wants to win at all costs.

So. Let's please continue on this thread in this vein. I strongly believe that we can have our cake and eat it, too, with the stats. This I'm sure was Colander's intention when he worked so hard to provide them, and kudos to Recoil for making Colander's gift even easier to read and analyze.

My name is Snapper and I am a Stats Whore.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-07-2012, 10:49
For me the stats could consist of a single number:
Number of deaths.
That is the only thing I sometimes look at.

For me the stats are largely useless. I seldom, if ever, check them.
I don't have faith in the stats as a fair measure of understanding pilot skill or honor given the ease with which we can juke the numbers by the way we play the game.

That said, I'm in full agreement with Snapper, both in terms of content and tone. The stats can be useful, if we get the right information from them.

Catseye
Dec-07-2012, 12:18
Palker, I think you have completely misinterpreted what's going on in this thread. I suggest you read it in some more detail before resorting to the use of words like "punishing", "judgement" "forcing your idea". Your reply has a surprisingly judgmental appearance, which is hypocritical too.

Glad you got to reply first pstyle:

This person has completely missed the whole point of this thread.

All I would add is that: The actions of everyone of us has an impact on others one way or another. I have always impressed on my IT teams to be circumspect when considering or implementing an action. Just ask yourself - "What is it going to do to the other guy if I do or don't do such and such?" Thus begins measurement and criteria analysis.

Catseye
Dec-07-2012, 12:27
My name is Snapper and I am a Stats Whore.

Hi Snapper,
With my eyesight, I started to read the above as:
My name is Snapper and I am a Statistic. :)

Cheers

Doc
Dec-07-2012, 13:28
Stats cannot measure how much fun we have. Just have fun! And be jolly!

Roblex
Dec-07-2012, 14:34
.

Further to that, I'd also be in favour of only "landed" kills being awarded, with an adjusted scale for crash landings and/or bailouts on friendly soil. It would make me think very hard about "base-raping", sitting on an enemy bomber's tail, abandoning my damaged a/c over water, etc etc. For me, this system of scoring would enhance the feeling of immersion for me and like-minded mates.

You have my vote.


.

For those who never (rarely) check their stats, life would go on -- or get snuffed out -- just the same on the ATAG Server. This is good. The many pilots who are just interested in shooting other planes or blowing up stuff simply for the joy of it add a dynamic randomness to the server environment that adds to the unpredictable nature of the air combat experience. I'll never really know if the 109 I'm squaring off against really wants to win-and-survive, or just wants to win at all costs.



It can be hard for a player that cares about staying alive to fight a person who does not care if they die but even in real life there were pilots who either did not believe they could ever be killed or had reached the point where they did not care. I can't quote examples from WW2 but in WW1 the people who flew with both Mccudden & Ball agreed that towards the end they seemed to be actively seeking out a glorious end (though both eventually died in accidents)

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-07-2012, 14:34
Just let the players play the game as they want, because you know it is a game and they play it for fun. And if their idea of fun is to go in to crazy dogfights and then bail out if they lost the fight who are you to judge/punish them for enjoying the game. Stop trying to force your idea of how the game should be played on everyone and let players be themselves. Of course that some rules are necessary but I would just keep them to: Do not shoot on friendly aeroplanes that's all.
Punishing players for not being you will not achieve anything.

Palker,

We will never punish players for playing however they like. If you look, our rules have never changed. We aren't the people to tell you or hate on any player for having fun however you like.

But in the case of being more realistic, I think it's a very good idea for those that do fly and try to land their kills to get rewarded for it or for it to show up in the form of a stat for encouragement. This will not affect one iota a player that goes in for the quick and dirty dog fights. It will only affect their score in our stats system. In old IL2, this system was built in from the get go.

Importance should be placed on making it back home alive, but it's the pilot's choice however they want to fly. That will never change. :thumbsup:

Roblex
Dec-08-2012, 07:51
Well I have done some testing and posted the results in the thread 'Questions about Stats' so it looks like we are not going to get consistent Stat results anyway which make this whole debate a non-starter :-(

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-08-2012, 08:13
It can be hard for a player that cares about staying alive to fight a person who does not care if they die but even in real life there were pilots who either did not believe they could ever be killed or had reached the point where they did not care. I can't quote examples from WW2 but in WW1 the people who flew with both Mccudden & Ball agreed that towards the end they seemed to be actively seeking out a glorious end (though both eventually died in accidents)

For me it adds to the challenge. Of late my mates and I have noted we're getting rammed more frequently during the course of some very intensive low level furballs. Certainly some of these are accidental -- it's easy to lose visual of a maneuvring opponent or simply misjudge your relative speeds. War is hell. In other cases it's been clearly deliberate -- the badly damaged opponent hits the brakes and pulls directly into you. I look at it as a desperation move which, as you describe, very likely happened in Real Life, too. I've just become more wary when pressing an attack, and try to react quickly to evade the ram and then re-engage. I feel that's increased my skills as a virtual pilot.

Now I just have to remember to keep checking my six when I am pressing an attack.....

Doc
Dec-08-2012, 12:22
I believe in the honor system.

Roblex
Dec-09-2012, 02:48
I believe in the honor system.

Not sure what you mean. Which of the problems discussed can be fixed by the honourable pilots behaving honourably? (That is an honest question, not a challenge)

If we want to compare our stats against everyone elses for our own personal feedback then, no matter how honest we are, we wont get a valid comparison if the other stats have been obtained dishonestly. My testing also seems to indicate the stats are not recording what they are supposed to (Ubisoft error, not ATAG) eg staying in a stricken plane until it has hit the ground and you are well & truly dead appears to still increment the 'Air Abandon' tally.

Yes in our own heads we know we did not bug out early just to avoid our defeat being registered and we know that we flew a complete mission as if our lives depended on it and RTBd alive whenever possible but it would be nice to see how we are doing against the other pilots flying the same way. Yes, I realise that is not going to be possible but by discussing what can be tweaked we might between us come up with ideas to improve the situation without upsetting the arcade gamers.

All I can say is 'Thankyou from the bottom of my heart to all those people who arrange the one life, full real missions each week' I know it is not logistically or commercially viable but in my ideal world I would fly nothing but organised scenarios and 1-2 hour long Co-Ops every day :-) In fact, before IL2 came along I played Warbirds and had stopped playing the public arenas entirely and spent 6-9 hours a week playing only planned missions and the rest of the week planning for the next one. When (or 'If') COD gets proper Co-Op missions that's where you will find me whenever possible. Meanwhile, through the efforts of ATAG, this server gives the best ad-hoc flying experience currently available and is getting better each week