View Full Version : Limiting Ping on ATAG server...
=AN=Felipe
Dec-02-2012, 09:27
Yoo! Guys how you doing?
So... im here to ask about the possibility to limit "ping" on ATAG servers... Im here to ask this becouse i saw many people complain, including me, agains pilots who has high pings.
They shoot their bullets without angle and hit our planes, this is ridiculous, many times i saw people shooting below other planes, bullets exploding below, and the plane got damage...
Pilots shooting withou AOA and hiting, you saw bullets passing away, and they hit you... Pilots with 300++ ping do this "magical" thing... its not fair.................
Cya in flight... S!
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-02-2012, 11:08
S! Felipe!
First, I confess I don't know very much about the technicals of pings, especially as it relates to your concern. I'll leave that to our boffins. :D
I saw a lot of action low over Hawkinge last night -- it was furball heaven and I had a hoot. In pulling tight lateral turns while watching the 109 on my tail, I did notice sometimes the tracer trajectory arcing towards me (and hitting me) even though the 109, from my perspective, was nowhere near to pulling lead on me. My first reaction was, "How'd he do that?" A couple of things come to mind:
1). If my pursuer is at a high ping, could it be that what I'm seeing is a fraction of a second "earlier" to what is actually happening? ie. Is he actually pulling lead when visually he appears to me to be not-quite-there?
2) One technique I've heard is to set gun elevation to 1000 meters (the maximum possible) and adjust your gun sight accordingly. This would give your attacker a bit of an advantage in this situation and is totally legit, if not historical.
3) I've been shot down a million times (OK, I'm exaggerating. A hundred thousand times), so I figure this is one aspect of Cliffs of Dover that I'm an expert at. Visually I don't think they're pulling enough lead, but possibly are they so close in the tight turn that they're quickly dropping a bit of flap to temporarily tighten their turn and willing to bleed some energy to get the sure kill?
I just pose the above for sake of discussion. :salute:
ATAG_Colander
Dec-02-2012, 11:18
S! Felipe!
First, I confess I don't know very much about the technicals of pings, especially as it relates to your concern. I'll leave that to our boffins. :D
I saw a lot of action low over Hawkinge last night -- it was furball heaven and I had a hoot. In pulling tight lateral turns while watching the 109 on my tail, I did notice sometimes the tracer trajectory arcing towards me (and hitting me) even though the 109, from my perspective, was nowhere near to pulling lead on me. My first reaction was, "How'd he do that?" A couple of things come to mind:
1). If my pursuer is at a high ping, could it be that what I'm seeing is a fraction of a second "earlier" to what is actually happening? ie. Is he actually pulling lead when visually he appears to me to be not-quite-there?
2) One technique I've heard is to set gun elevation to 1000 meters (the maximum possible) and adjust your gun sight accordingly. This would give your attacker a bit of an advantage in this situation and is totally legit, if not historical.
3) I've been shot down a million times (OK, I'm exaggerating. A hundred thousand times), so I figure this is one aspect of Cliffs of Dover that I'm an expert at. Visually I don't think they're pulling enough lead, but possibly are they so close in the tight turn that they're quickly dropping a bit of flap to temporarily tighten their turn and willing to bleed some energy to get the sure kill?
I just pose the above for sake of discussion. :salute:
Snapper,
Given enough speed to do it, the 109 allows you to do a quick pull, shoot and release. This lets you do a high deflection shot for a millisecond.
Perhaps that's what you saw.
Felipe,
On the pings issue, I think if we start filtering pings, we'll loose 1/3 of the players and I don't think we want to do that for the day to day playing. Perhaps it would be a good idea for some unknown special event.
ATAG_Colander.
I know what Felipe means, you have a plane that you know can't hit you, and you can see he is shooting miles behind you - and then 4-5 seconds later you get all sorts of damage. Happens very often when the server is full and I am not entirely sure if it's ping related. I would say the shooter can see you OK and shoots you alright on his PC, I don't know. The truth is it is very difficult to defend (break) against certain players if their ping is high because apparently you don't see them where they are. I don't think this is their fault and there is nothing you can do about it.
Colander it's not the last second pull shoot release or rudder work, simple lag in comms between you, the server and the other guy. You can see him shooting 50m behind you and the damage occurs when you think OK I evaded alright and 2 seconds after he stopped shooting your wing is missing or so. It's a multiplayer game, it is what it is unfortunately.
Catseye
Dec-02-2012, 12:23
From my experience abnormally high pings can result in the aircraft you are viewing not being where you think it is and also they view you differently.
Both from an attacking and defending perspective. It has been a problem since the original IL2 of being hit when his nose it not on you and vica versa.
I notice that some of the Eastern European servers have a ping limitation of 180 ms and they advise you once you get into the cockpit that you will be disconnected in 30 seconds.
I suggest setting a maximum ping rate based upon technical evidence in order to maintain a reasonably level playing field. It is hard to be all things to all people.
=AN=Felipe
Dec-02-2012, 12:29
hehe its frustrating... :salute:
III./ZG76_Keller
Dec-02-2012, 12:43
Which mission was this on Felipe? I have a feeling that certain missions are more responsible than others.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-02-2012, 13:32
Snapper,
Given enough speed to do it, the 109 allows you to do a quick pull, shoot and release. This lets you do a high deflection shot for a millisecond.
Perhaps that's what you saw.
ATAG_Colander.
Could be; I wouldn't rule it out. That quick pull would be a very slight move from my perspective and not easily seen under the circumstances.
On further thought, nah......they're hitting PRINT SCREEN or something like that. NO 109 can beat ol' Snapper in a tight turn. I'm just too good. It can't be done. Never. :PP
J/K for those fresh from the banana forum! :geek:
If there were such a demand for this server that limiting pings wouldn't reduce the number of players I'd say great. But we are no where near that yet. There are a lot of empty servers.
It's missions that cause a lot of lag.
Catseye
Dec-02-2012, 17:00
If there were such a demand for this server that limiting pings wouldn't reduce the number of players I'd say great. But we are no where near that yet. There are a lot of empty servers.
It's missions that cause a lot of lag.
Hi Doc,
From my perspective the demand for the ATAG server is the highest of all the servers. What I think you are saying, and please correct me if wrong, is that the server has peak usage and then falls off at times when there is very little load. It's trying to keep pilots on the servers during low times that would certainly be a compromise for the ATAG server if ping rates were constrained.
Interesting point you are making re: lag vs pings.
Does anyone really know if it is pings that are the issue causing displacement of aircraft?
. . . . . or is it the map complexity creating lag that causes displacement?
Cheers
Hi Doc,
From my perspective the demand for the ATAG server is the highest of all the servers. What I think you are saying, and please correct me if wrong, is that the server has peak usage and then falls off at times when there is very little load. It's trying to keep pilots on the servers during low times that would certainly be a compromise for the ATAG server if ping rates were constrained.
Interesting point you are making re: lag vs pings.
Does anyone really know if it is pings that are the issue causing displacement of aircraft?
. . . . . or is it the map complexity creating lag that causes displacement?
Cheers
The game isn't mature enough yet to ping limit people. There just isn't enough people to do this. Especially pings.
Also the larger missions cause a lot of lag and I notice that Salmo's mission there is a steady departing of players. Lots of chat about warping.
Pressing Tab often takes 10 seconds to get a response for me and others.
Opening map same result.
Its true that often ones programming skills easily surpass the games ability to run it.
Hope this helps Cat.
ATAG_Bliss
Dec-02-2012, 20:13
If there were such a demand for this server that limiting pings wouldn't reduce the number of players I'd say great. But we are no where near that yet. There are a lot of empty servers.
It's missions that cause a lot of lag.
Hi Doc,
From my perspective the demand for the ATAG server is the highest of all the servers. What I think you are saying, and please correct me if wrong, is that the server has peak usage and then falls off at times when there is very little load. It's trying to keep pilots on the servers during low times that would certainly be a compromise for the ATAG server if ping rates were constrained.
Interesting point you are making re: lag vs pings.
Does anyone really know if it is pings that are the issue causing displacement of aircraft?
. . . . . or is it the map complexity creating lag that causes displacement?
Cheers
The code of the game is the problem. You can make it worse and worse by missions sure, but problem simply comes down to netcode. They've made it better, but it will never be good enough to support anything substantial online. If you spreadout the players amongst the entire English channel (saying you have 125 players) the game will work fine, be stutter and lag free always. The problem is when you get those players together. Then the netcode issues shine. So we are either left with making missions with hardly any content whatsoever, making a historical mission with fields spread out amongst the entire map (only to have the problem come up again after everyone finds each other) or do what we've tried to do, make it seem like you are fighting the fight without having to fly around for 2 hours to do it. Either way, the problem exists regardless of what you do. Get enough players together and you're gonna have problems.
For example, this game acts as a client to steam to run an online server. Netspeed in the config doesn't do anything at all. I've tried 1 to 1000000000000 and nothing changes. The netcode is so awful (you can try this yourself) that you can completely unplug your modem / turn the power off or w/e, and by the time it comes back up you are still part of the server. To test just how long before the server even realizes you are gone do this: When the end of a mission occurs and the message states don't reconnect for 2 minutes, the server has already restarted on to the next mission. Just see how long you will stay in the server after the mission's ended before you get a timeout. I think when I timed it, it was around 4 minutes. So that's 4 minutes of not having network connectivity, and the server doesn't care nor even realize you aren't connected anymore. That my friends is garbage code.
So in the end of the day we can try to spark some life into this by varying missions and whatnot, but the true reality is when all these players come together, in one area, things will go south.
And before anyone thinks it has anything to do with server stress or what have you, the server can have 100 people in it, running another game mechwarrior/AA, teamspeak, you name it, and the CPUs on the server will never go above 15% usage. It's the equivalent of playing minesweeper for our machine. We also have a 10 gigabyte per second connection. We are the definition of overkill. But all that doesn't matter when the basic underlying problem will always be there. We can polish this up anyway we want, we can have the most accurate historical missions ever produced, but all of that doesn't amount to a hill of beans when all those players taking off from all those fields spread over the entire english channel map finally come into contact with each other. It will always come to shit. I would gladly setup 2 airstarts 100m from each other as the ONLY objects on an entire mission and anyone and everyone can join in and watch what happens when you have that many humans in one spot (and it doesn't take much). All this combined basically means we are stuck with what we have. Sugar coating it will never rid us of the problem in the 1st place.
My .02 and trust me from all the time I've messed with it, I know what I'm talking about.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-02-2012, 20:44
Thanks for that explanation, Bliss. All the techno-garble generally leaves me scratching my head, but even I understood your post. :thumbsup:
My .02 and trust me from all the time I've messed with it, I know what I'm talking about.
Sounds good to me. A man with experience is never at the mercy of someone with a theory. Or a URL. :)
III./ZG76_Keller
Dec-03-2012, 00:10
Does anyone really know if it is pings that are the issue causing displacement of aircraft?
. . . . . or is it the map complexity creating lag that causes displacement?
Cheers
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
ATAG_Torian
Dec-03-2012, 04:43
The code of the game is the problem.
I wish we could start our own semi open source flight sim company and do it right from the start. Pay people like Colander and others some sort of remuneration. A bit of a pipe dream I know considering how few dedicated combat flight simmers there are unlike something like the Linux community. But one can dream. Maybe lobby companies like DCS or A2A. Heck I'm sure if DCS released a FW190 A8 u would see a mass migration...P51 v FW190...throw in a B17 and I am drooling over the missions u could make.
ATAG_Colander
Dec-03-2012, 08:34
I wish we could start our own semi open source flight sim company and do it right from the start. Pay people like Colander and others some sort of remuneration. A bit of a pipe dream I know considering how few dedicated combat flight simmers there are unlike something like the Linux community. But one can dream. Maybe lobby companies like DCS or A2A. Heck I'm sure if DCS released a FW190 A8 u would see a mass migration...P51 v FW190...throw in a B17 and I am drooling over the missions u could make.
On the other hand, we don't know what bugs are hiding behind DCS or A2A waiting to be discovered :)
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