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Archie
Dec-15-2012, 18:41
Damn that place is worse than the banana :stunned:

Old_Canuck
Dec-16-2012, 11:23
roflmao

Archie
Dec-18-2012, 03:16
Welcome message from the boss :salute:
http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=222

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-18-2012, 03:28
Sounds like typical Jason. Lock or delete all criticism threads and comparison threads. It's obvious when you make a flight sim, you don't want to compare it to any other flight sim right?

Look at poor bisher here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3696762/4.html

Now just imagine when you ask a question like that on a forum he has admin rights to. POOF!

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-18-2012, 07:29
I sent a PM to Bisher inviting him to post over here. We're not in anyone's back pocket.

ATAG_Septic
Dec-18-2012, 07:38
I sent a PM to Bisher inviting him to post over here. We're not in anyone's back pocket.

Great thought Snapper.

Septic.

Archie
Dec-18-2012, 09:05
Well I hope everyone will enjoy the moderation at the new forum.Just don't mention the war... :)

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-18-2012, 09:23
What is it with flying sim forums that turn modertators into complete tools..

I guess that forum will be a barrel of laughs too once the alpha n beta's are released........................

Cant wait

Archie
Dec-18-2012, 09:35
Moderators in general have to abide by the rules given to them by the management. It doesn't always help when the rules change from week to week...
Of course, some moderators are a bit more special than others. Don't ask me how I know this :bricks

Looks like that forum will be locked down pretty tight, and there are just some things they don't want discussed, and are a little embarrassed about. They can say what they like, but BoS is ALWAYS going to be compared to CoD, and we already know features that made CoD special are not going to be in BoS.

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-18-2012, 09:52
What is it with flying sim forums that turn modertators into complete tools..

I guess that forum will be a barrel of laughs too once the alpha n beta's are released........................

Cant wait

Well, I just banned two spammers this week. Will that do? LOL :PP

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-18-2012, 10:22
lol..

You rebel you...:stunned:

Dutch
Dec-18-2012, 10:29
What's 'modertators' precious? Give us nice Spam, raw, and keep nasty tators.

Spam.....

1232


Tators......

1233

Sorry. That's as bad as pstyle's Christmas tune......... :)

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-18-2012, 10:41
1234

ROF version of gollum

Archie
Dec-20-2012, 10:18
Interesting, it doesn't say 'banned' under a users avatar when they are banned, so nobody will know when half the forum isn't there! Clever...:recon:
(word of advice, don't say the word 'chump' on the forum)
Fun place!

JG52_Krupi
Dec-20-2012, 12:06
You were banned?

Archie
Dec-20-2012, 13:07
Not yet, but some have...

Dutch
Dec-20-2012, 13:20
Interesting, it doesn't say 'banned' under a users avatar when they are banned, so nobody will know when half the forum isn't there! Clever...:recon:
(word of advice, don't say the word 'chump' on the forum)
Fun place!

Haha! Yep, that was me! Banned for one day for referring to our friend Crummp as 'Chump'. Do I get a coconut? :)

JG52_Krupi
Dec-20-2012, 13:30
What is wrong with Crumpp?

ATAG_Deacon
Dec-20-2012, 14:23
Haha! Yep, that was me! Banned for one day for referring to our friend Crummp as 'Chump'. Do I get a coconut? :)

Dutch...you get put in the penalty box more than anyone I know. Damn, you're a chump :PP

Dutch
Dec-20-2012, 15:02
Dutch...you get put in the penalty box more than anyone I know. Damn, you're a chump :PP

I know mate I know. But what leads up to it is such fun, dontcha know! :P

ATAG_Deacon
Dec-20-2012, 15:15
I know mate I know. But what leads up to it is such fun, dontcha know! :P


Usually a few stout ales.

Don't worry, the world is supposed to end before your out of the box :geek:

Dutch
Dec-20-2012, 17:06
Oh, I'm already out of my box. :D

Actually, I'll re-phrase that, I'm already un-banned. You know, time zones and all that.

But I'll be staying away from that place for a while. Nothing to see but a load of blokes typing a lot of hot air for no apparent reason as yet. Bit weird if you ask me.........

Archie
Dec-20-2012, 17:14
But have you voted for what icons you would like yet Dutch? Wouldn't want to miss that thrilling wild rollercoaster of a thread!

Dutch
Dec-20-2012, 17:28
But have you voted for what icons you would like yet Dutch?

Nope. Nor do I intend to. That's just the kind of thing I'm talking about. I just don't know what the hell he's talking about or why.

I also find it a bit strange that everyone is debating whether the theatre after Stalingrad should be the Pacific or the Med, when all we've seen so far is an imported LaGG-3.

Errrm, pardon?

Just a bit weird. But maybe it's me.

Doc
Dec-20-2012, 17:45
I think you guys need to go over there and make sure Jason and team get the Spit flight model correct. We don't want another one of these to happen with that title.
:hide:

Catseye
Dec-30-2012, 13:01
1234

ROF version of gollum

Now that's funny!!

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-30-2012, 21:15
Oh, I'm already out of my box. :D

Actually, I'll re-phrase that, I'm already un-banned. You know, time zones and all that.

But I'll be staying away from that place for a while. Nothing to see but a load of blokes typing a lot of hot air for no apparent reason as yet. Bit weird if you ask me.........

And I'm back in the box. It seems saying you have your 777 knee pads on is more insulting than being called names such as cocksucker, faggot, fool, or idiot. I simply love the bias.

Oh well, it's no wonder that forum greatly led to the demise of the sim in the 1st place.

ATAG_Colander
Dec-30-2012, 21:36
Here you go :)

777 knee pads (http://www.amazon.com/Tommyco-EL777-Eliminator-Adjustable-Sliding/dp/B001JEOGTW)

ATAG_JTDawg
Dec-30-2012, 23:13
And I'm back in the box. It seems saying you have your 777 knee pads on is more insulting than being called names such as cocksucker, faggot, fool, or idiot. I simply love the bias.

Oh well, it's no wonder that forum greatly led to the demise of the sim in the 1st place.

roflmao Bliss i was in flooring for 20 years, knee pads in our trade are known as cocksuckers ( probably becouse we make our living on our knee"s an stretch it tighter then anyone else ) :devilish:

Mutt13y5
Feb-05-2013, 06:12
Just read the Forum comments that Bliss linked to...
Funny the only time you see Jason appear is when either he believes ROF/BOS are being unfavourably compared to CLOD or to remind customers that they are a poor development team
IE

"Scoobe is making a lot of sense there. :-)

Both sims need your continued and new support. We are the thin red line trying to hold back extinction of the genre.

Just imaging a world with no new hard-core prop sim development.

Jason"

Never met him, but from posts i get the impression that he is a guy who will do anything and everything to ensure that he gets the $$$..

thee_oddball
Feb-05-2013, 09:40
Just read the Forum comments that Bliss linked to...
Funny the only time you see Jason appear is when either he believes ROF/BOS are being unfavourably compared to CLOD or to remind customers that they are a poor development team
IE

"Scoobe is making a lot of sense there. :-)

Both sims need your continued and new support. We are the thin red line trying to hold back extinction of the genre.

Just imaging a world with no new hard-core prop sim development.

Jason"

Never met him, but from posts i get the impression that he is a guy who will do anything and everything to ensure that he gets the $$$..

the funny part is he is not making a "hard-core sim".....BoS will be to CLoD as BF3 is to ARMA3...

Royraiden
Mar-01-2013, 06:49
I sense too much hate towards Jason and the Rof team, I dont know him personally so I have nothing against it and I actually enjoyed Rof when I used to play it.I mean he wasnt involved with Clod,he wasnt the one who ditched a marvellous but unfinnished product.

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-01-2013, 07:52
I sense too much hate towards Jason and the Rof team, I dont know him personally so I have nothing against it and I actually enjoyed Rof when I used to play it.I mean he wasnt involved with Clod,he wasnt the one who ditched a marvellous but unfinnished product.

This thread sums it up, particularly the last post.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?3174-Bos-Update-1st-Feb-2013

Archie
Mar-01-2013, 09:16
I come here for updates on the fantastic work being done with CoD. I don't bother with the BoS forum at all. I see some of the same infantile people there as on the RoF forum, either uber fanboys or former 1C trolls with a new face. RoF seems to be dying on its feet, especially since Jason announced that FM reviews were no sort of priority at all.Why would they bother, when the new cash cow is BoS. 'we need your money to survive, and with your continued support maybe one day we will fix the FM's'. Yeah, right.I just can't get excited by BoS.
On another note, we would probably be playing BoM now if the team hadn't been shafted...

thee_oddball
Mar-01-2013, 09:37
I sense too much hate towards Jason and the Rof team, I dont know him personally so I have nothing against it and I actually enjoyed Rof when I used to play it.I mean he wasnt involved with Clod,he wasnt the one who ditched a marvellous but unfinnished product.

I do not hate him...I despise his BS business tactics....what I do hate is the devolution that is happening to the series...CLOD was leaps and bounds ahead of 1946 even if it is franken code....BOS will be a graphically updated 1946 for all intensive purposes...just without the planes...combined with a customer gouging and community dividing business model...add to that it is built on a long in the tooth dated engine.

How much respect (or lack of) can he have for the community when he is still trying to flog us for over $130+ and thats WITH the %45 discount on a game that is almost 4 years old with no online community to speak of....jason is in this for the money! A quality product is a very secondary issue..

i

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-01-2013, 09:46
I think some of us were hoping that the improvements and unlocked features in the BoM engine would be backward implemented into Cliffs of Dover, although more recent hard-to-decipher (for me, at least) updates via BlackSix indicated that this would not be so.

I feel badly for those who were keenly anticipating a BoM/Operation Barbarossa-type theatre. I certainly would've bought it, but the genre doesn't hold much sway for me personally, although I can well understand the appeal it has for those it does.

Selfishly and guiltily, as a dyed-in-the-wool Battle of Britain enthusiast and student for literally half a century, I'm extremely happy with how Clod is now evolving because of Team Fusion's efforts. Perhaps the high altitude bug might have been fixed with BoM and might have been rolled back to Clod. But there are so many other fixes and improvements that TF is doing because of their sincere dedication, knowledge, and passion that I'm certain would never have been realized in Cliffs of Dover if Team Fusion had not been created.

I feel ambivalent towards BoS. I hate and despise how it came to be, yet it is another WW2 sim in a very thin genre of video games. I will probably get it, but then again, who knows what lies in store for Cliffs of Dover by the time BoS is launched in 2014?

Let the good times roll. :)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-01-2013, 10:09
I think some of us were hoping that the improvements and unlocked features in the BoM engine would be backward implemented into Cliffs of Dover, although more recent hard-to-decipher (for me, at least) updates via BlackSix indicated that this would not be so.


Therein lies my major concern too.
It look for quite a while there as though CloD was just the beginning of perhaps a 10 year plan to make a WW2-wide, multi-theater sim unlike any other before. However, as we know, the developers - subject to various circumstances which we may never know - winded up without the ability** to implement this idea. Now the developer has abandoned Clod, and put it in the too-hard category.

What has happened now, however, might turn out to be the worst financial decision they could make. It seems as though they weren't actually aware of how amazing Cliffs of Dover was. If ever there was a case of a diamond hidden in the mud, this game might just be that.

The TF videos are quite clearly showing that a team of people could, within a few months, transform this software into something quite remarkable. I distinctly recall people asking 1C and MG-Games how many people were working on the project, only to be consistently re-buffed and told that "it doesn't work like that". However, TF have demonstrated quite clearly that, yes, it does work like that. If you only resource the project with the right people it might actually be completed!

**ability, desire, skill, funds.. whatever term you want to insert

Royraiden
Mar-01-2013, 10:28
This thread sums it up, particularly the last post.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?3174-Bos-Update-1st-Feb-2013

Ok I truly understand the concern that some of you have stated, it seems that the involvement of 777 was some kind of a low blow of some sort,but what I dont understand is why did 1C accepted?Im surely missing something here, did the majority of team behind Clod went to BOS because of the money alone?Can anyone explain to me what went down with the move to BOS? Im still supporting the new sim, thats not say Im not excited about Clod, actually im more excited by Team Fusions future improvements to Clod than the whole new sim altogether.What I want you guys to think about is,after Clod has been left unfinnished and Oleg and Ilya are out of the question, what is in the future for us WW2 flight simmers apart from that other "inferior" sim?I dont think we should separate even more but rather unite,but well thats just my opinion after all

LG1.Farber
Mar-01-2013, 10:32
I do not hate him...I despise his BS business tactics....what I do hate is the devolution that is happening to the series...CLOD was leaps and bounds ahead of 1946 even if it is franken code....BOS will be a graphically updated 1946 for all intensive purposes...just without the planes...combined with a customer gouging and community dividing business model...add to that it is built on a long in the tooth dated engine.

How much respect (or lack of) can he have for the community when he is still trying to flog us for over $130+ and thats WITH the %45 discount on a game that is almost 4 years old with no online community to speak of....jason is in this for the money! A quality product is a very secondary issue..

i

...and so say I.

An analogy someone told me was that "it's almost like they built a car factory which had lots of hitches and problems but just as the problems were almost sorted and the first cars, the actually money making part, was about to begin somebody pulled the plug - it doesnt make sense.".

Royraiden
Mar-01-2013, 10:44
BTW if the intention here is not to censor or limit free expression, why was that thread locked?Im raising some questions here with only good intentions,please dont get me wrong, you have all my support and Im already "recruiting" friends back to Clod and directly to these awesome forums.

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-01-2013, 11:25
BTW if the intention here is not to censor or limit free expression, why was that thread locked?Im raising some questions here with only good intentions,please dont get me wrong, you have all my support and Im already "recruiting" friends back to Clod and directly to these awesome forums.

Well, the decision to lock the thread, as I have others, was mine as moderator. This forum is intended to be a good place to visit, to acquire and share Clod-related information. If you visit other forums that allow vitriole to develop you will see just how vicious the posts can get very quickly in the name of "free expression". As soon as disrespect is shown by one forum member to another, my job is to intervene to prevent things deteriorating further. If a direct attack is made upon another member, I will censor, edit, delete posts as warranted -- and take stronger measures if necessary. If anyone feels that as a moderator I've been too heavy-handed then certainly a PM can be sent to the ATAG admins to express that concern.

In a nutshell, if folks don't get nasty then their posts/threads shouldn't be edited, locked, or deleted. It seems to have worked so far!

Old_Canuck
Mar-01-2013, 11:49
Having re-read both threads, I see the wisdom of locking that earlier one. After a cooling off period, this thread is dealing with the topic again but you guys are all making sense now that tempers have cooled. "Diamond in the mud..." - CLASSIC. What we're doing here is trying to understand how this diamond ended up in the mud. If Jason indeed is greedy for gain at the expense of a quality product he is to be pitied rather than hated IMHO. He's missing out on a lot of good vibes and camaraderie. Talking about TF here. The more I read through the team's postings, the more energy I feel for the project. Those good vibes will soon spread to the community after the patch is released and that's a feeling that money can't buy.

il_corleone
Mar-01-2013, 11:54
Having re-read both threads, I see the wisdom of locking that earlier one. After a cooling off period, this thread is dealing with the topic again but you guys are all making sense now that tempers have cooled. "Diamond in the mud..." - CLASSIC. What we're doing here is trying to understand how this diamond ended up in the mud. If Jason indeed is greedy for gain at the expense of a quality product he is to be pitied rather than hated IMHO. He's missing out on a lot of good vibes and camaraderie. Talking about TF here. The more I read through the team's postings, the more energy I feel for the project. Those good vibes will soon spread to the community after the patch is released and that's a feeling that money can't buy.

You sir had said it well my friend... :thumbsup:

Borsch
Mar-01-2013, 12:24
BTW if the intention here is not to censor or limit free expression, why was that thread locked?Im raising some questions here with only good intentions,please dont get me wrong, you have all my support and Im already "recruiting" friends back to Clod and directly to these awesome forums.

THat discussion carried on in this thread: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?3191-Goodbye

Doc
Mar-01-2013, 12:35
...and so say I.

An analogy someone told me was that "it's almost like they built a car factory which had lots of hitches and problems but just as the problems were almost sorted and the first cars, the actually money making part, was about to begin somebody pulled the plug - it doesnt make sense.".

This would be The Delorean Motor Company (http://delorean.com/).

Royraiden
Mar-01-2013, 16:38
I do understand what you were trying to avoid when locking that thread so I wont comment about it anymore.Im still uninformed , is there anyone that was part of the Clod team that gave his insight of what happened with the change? Also my question regarding the future of ww2 flight sims still stands.All with respect and good intention my friends :)

thee_oddball
Mar-01-2013, 19:12
I do understand what you were trying to avoid when locking that thread so I wont comment about it anymore.Im still uninformed , is there anyone that was part of the Clod team that gave his insight of what happened with the change? Also my question regarding the future of ww2 flight sims still stands.All with respect and good intention my friends :)

are you asking for the whole sstory of what happened to CLoD?

Royraiden
Mar-01-2013, 23:14
are you asking for the whole story of what happened to CLoD?
Well I checked the so called banana forums long before CLOD's release and quite a long time after that, maybe summer 2012 was the last time I lurked over there so I honestly dont know the details of the "move". I knew they were working for a future Battle of Moscow and even saw a few pictures but the next thing I knew that project was cancelled and 777 took over and merged with Maddox games, correct me if Im wrong.So I know nothing about what the hardcore followers experienced during that transition.

BTW I have to admit that after today's update on that other forum Im a bit dissapointed with some of the answers.

ATAG_Colander
Mar-02-2013, 10:44
Hi Roy,

The past is past. How we got where we are is now irrelevant. Let's focus on the future :thumbsup:

Colander.

Skoshi_Tiger
Mar-02-2013, 22:19
After reading the latest development update it seams that personal attacks on forum members are now allowed by the moderators IF the person being attacked is critical of BofS.

Strange way to run a forum.

ATAG_Bliss
Mar-02-2013, 22:23
After reading the latest development update it seams that personal attacks on forum members are now allowed by the moderators IF the person being attacked is critical of BofS.

Strange way to run a forum.

That's been that way on the ROF forums for almost 4 years now. And it appears the ROF Sim Hq section is the same way. I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon!

LG1.Farber
Mar-03-2013, 09:23
That's been that way on the ROF forums for almost 4 years now. And it appears the ROF Sim Hq section is the same way. I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon!

It was not that way on 1c though, this lead to Clod being character assassinated and for anyone who regularly posted at 1c you will see allot of those critics of clod over at BoS forum squealing with joy. I suppose they would have never been able to counter the amazon reviews but I really think the word of mouth really did damage even further the buggy release.

This same kind of censored forum also happened at the RO2 forum, they pretended to take all the core aspects of the old game and give the hardcore fans what they wanted but when they delivered its was just another shooter and all the old hands who spoke out were banned or had their posts deleted.

I think its important everyone gets to have their say though with out people exploding on them or threatening them. Nice guys finish last?

Dutch
Mar-03-2013, 20:22
I'd just like to point out very briefly, that whenever i've been forum surfing over the last week, the ATAG forum has regularly had double the number of readers when measured against the so-called 'il2 sturmovik' forum.

:)

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-03-2013, 20:37
Yes!!! I'd ascribe it to the wonderful Team Fusion progress and WIP videos that Mystic and Bliss are releasing, coupled to the <cough> masterful moderating this forum has. <cough>

:)

Skoshi_Tiger
Mar-08-2013, 10:31
Very unusual!

In update 3 loft says

We never hindered creativity, contrary we support any initiative.

and then encourages modding by saying


Of course we are always keeping a close eye for talented people to maybe invite them to our team of developers.

but in update 10 he posts


7) Now enthusiasts from ATAG themselves correct CloD (copyright for this game belongs to you). Whether any cooperation with this team?

So far none of them have tried to contact with me (or with anyone else from 1C-777) and discuss this possibility. This is a bad sign. They don't respect us. If there is no respect for other people's property, any dialogue is impossible. I hope that this is due only to the fact that this boys don't yet know what they want and what they have done. Therefore, they are shy.

Just from the wording I assume there are some translation issues but still seems a bit harsh.

Borsch
Mar-08-2013, 11:13
"Boys" is a bad translation, he said "Guys" in Russian. Also it should be "guys dont know what they want and what they will actually make". But the gist of the message was translated ok.

THe key word is cooperation, not "permission".

Archie
Mar-08-2013, 12:46
Even with the dev update theres more people reading this forum than that forum... :)

vranac
Mar-08-2013, 13:47
Interesting answer from Loft on one interesting question.

Loft

Posted Today, 21:05


Sandy1942, on 08 Mar 2013 - 18:02, said:


Thank you, that were still able to make an update, despite the short week. Alexander, I think you special thanks. That's interesting.


Forgive me for not thematic issue (most of Alberta): is it realistic to make the finalising patch for the "Battle of Britain" official through Steam, in the event that it will be successful? This fact will contribute to additional sales of CloD.


What's so unreal? Throughout the proposal is only one word "if", so it is realistic.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/281-обсуждение-10-й-части-дневников-разработки/page-2#entry19043

Could some of our Russian friends translate this better ?

Borsch
Mar-08-2013, 13:52
Loft answered that it is not infeasible that if TF patch is successful, it could be incorporated into Steam patch.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/281-обсуждение-10-й-части-дневников-разработки/?p=19043

vranac
Mar-08-2013, 14:05
I understood it that way also.

Interesting.

Royraiden
Mar-09-2013, 06:53
I was concerned with the answer regarding TF but Snapper made me realize that the message may had been lost in translation which made sense.Anyways my post was deleted.Those who know me know that I avoid confrontation and am always respecful, it seems over there that isnt enough.I wish they could accept TF and their patches officially, the team and the simmers deserve it inmy opinion.

kg55_Kaiser
Mar-09-2013, 12:50
Interesting answer from Loft on one interesting question.

Loft


http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/281-обсуждение-10-й-части-дневников-разработки/page-2#entry19043

Could some of our Russian friends translate this better ?


Loft answered that it is not infeasible that if TF patch is successful, it could be incorporated into Steam patch.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/281-обсуждение-10-й-части-дневников-разработки/?p=19043

Paraphrasing easier.
= FB = LOFT said it's possible.

Royraiden
Mar-09-2013, 19:35
Now I cant even see the thread.Either they deleted the thread or they somehow blocked me from it.Meh :ind:

Borsch
Mar-09-2013, 20:13
Yep, same here. Looks like Jason woke up in the USA. Absolutely terrible!!!:grrr: There was NOTHING malicious in that thread, not a thing! But lots of good info- like that Loft is head of everything IL2: including 1946, CLoD and BOS (duh), he talked about Daidolos Team, possible CLOD win8 patch allegedly. But Jason doesn't want that and their "ministry of truth" just edits history how it sees fit. Really appalled by Jason's behaviour, it was him as both FlatSpinMan and BearCat were both ok with the topic and let it run (after deleting royraiden's post but still)!!!!

All this was posted in Dev Diary discussion, following Lofts initiation of TF topic. Russian forums have free discussion as usual, but English BOS... maaan :thmbdwn:

ATAG_Bliss
Mar-09-2013, 20:22
I've made it a habit to only look in the Russian section for news. It's difficult to translate at times, but the English section is not worth looking at.

There is some great dialogue on the Russian side.

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-09-2013, 20:35
Just ran into this posted Dec 14, 2012. Certainly answers why TF never "showed respect" and approached LOFT about modding Clod:

Ataros, on 13 Dec 2012 - 04:24, said:
Could you please advise if 1C transfered the rights for CloD and BoM engine to your joint venture or 1C keeps the rights to themselves. Whom community should talk to about releasing (parts of) CloD code to modders? E.g. if Diados team decides to work on CLoD engine, whom they should talk to?

You mentioned that your team may use some models from BoM in BoS. Doesn't it mean you own the rights for BoM now and these questions should be discussed with you?

[Jason Williams replied Dec 14, 2012]

I'm sorry but there is nothing to discuss. I have nothing to do with CLOD code or and decisions about it. I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree on this, I highly doubt that code will be released to anyone.

Jason

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/7-questions-for-developers/?p=1213

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/7-questions-for-developers/?p=1630

Royraiden
Mar-09-2013, 20:41
Just ran into this posted Dec 14, 2012. Certainly answers why TF never "showed respect" and approached LOFT about modding Clod:

Ataros, on 13 Dec 2012 - 04:24, said:
Could you please advise if 1C transfered the rights for CloD and BoM engine to your joint venture or 1C keeps the rights to themselves. Whom community should talk to about releasing (parts of) CloD code to modders? E.g. if Diados team decides to work on CLoD engine, whom they should talk to?

You mentioned that your team may use some models from BoM in BoS. Doesn't it mean you own the rights for BoM now and these questions should be discussed with you?

[Jason Williams replied Dec 14, 2012]

I'm sorry but there is nothing to discuss. I have nothing to do with CLOD code or and decisions about it. I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree on this, I highly doubt that code will be released to anyone.

Jason
Well thread blockings aside,the big question is,does the merged team now possess the rights to that code or not?According to that quote he says he has nothing to do with it, then who does??

Borsch
Mar-09-2013, 20:41
We need to show this to Loft, I'd relieve Jason of his duties tbh... Although Jason may have said the truth- HE has nothing to do with CLoD (not Loft).

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-09-2013, 20:55
It's such a silly notion: "We have nothing to do with Clod and won't discuss it, but TF should have shown respect for property and discussed it with us!"

Or something like that.:goofy

If I bought/leased a Ford truck that turned out to be defective and performing badly, but the dealership refused to repair it any further because they're only working on newer, different models now....it would be ludicrous for Ford to turn around and say, "But you have no right to repair your truck by independent mechanics without talking with us first (even though we just said we won't talk about it). Show some respect!"

Am I missing something here? :doh:

ATAG_Bliss
Mar-09-2013, 20:58
I hope some of it is a translation issue.

Royraiden
Mar-09-2013, 21:08
After all this recent mess, has the team tried to make any sort of contact with them?I know the relations between the two parts arent good but maybe something could be worked out.

kg55_Kaiser
Mar-10-2013, 06:03
here: http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=68949&page=515
"blamestorming" 1C-777

Borsch
Mar-10-2013, 11:44
Yep, same here. Looks like Jason woke up in the USA. Absolutely terrible!!!:grrr: There was NOTHING malicious in that thread, not a thing! But lots of good info- like that Loft is head of everything IL2: including 1946, CLoD and BOS (duh), he talked about Daidolos Team, possible CLOD win8 patch allegedly. But Jason doesn't want that and their "ministry of truth" just edits history how it sees fit. Really appalled by Jason's behaviour, it was him as both FlatSpinMan and BearCat were both ok with the topic and let it run (after deleting royraiden's post but still)!!!!

All this was posted in Dev Diary discussion, following Lofts initiation of TF topic. Russian forums have free discussion as usual, but English BOS... maaan :thmbdwn:

OK, Jason had nothing to do with it, Flatspinman accidentally made the thread hidden :)

vranac
Mar-13-2013, 16:46
Loft


Posted on 12 March 2013 - 22:16



89-, on 12 Mar 2013 - 19:14, said:

Ministry of the Truth and Love ;)
So and about Team Fusion how to communicate?



Private, and preferably someone from Team that I could make decisions, and better if a patch is ready.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/281-обсуждение-10-й-части-дневников-разработки/page-6#entry19449

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-13-2013, 17:19
Hmmm, interesting. They'd need someone on Team Fusion who can make decisions, is obviously knowledgeable about all facets of Cliffs of Dover, and preferably, I suppose, someone who is fluent in Russian.........

:idea:


Hey.....is Ilya on Team Fusion?

Pedro_AFK
Mar-13-2013, 18:16
vranac, why dont you post the rest of the conversation?? 89 even gets a 3 days ban on the entry. I dont get nothing good from that conversation.

vranac
Mar-13-2013, 19:45
Not because of that question at all.

He was banned because of criticising the moderation policy there ,
Loft warned him that he isn't An. Petrovich and that he is CEO and have his own opinion.

It wasn't about criticism of the game but about what happened with the release of CloD really and why.

But the Russian forum was really much, much less moderated and only there you have some real info
what BoS will be, and more what BoS will not be.

Snapper, that answer from Loft looked to me very nice and combined with the last one( steam patch) it looks like
he is not against it at all if the patch is good and I'm pretty shure it is.
My Russian is bad, but I think he will talk with someone from TF if they( you )) like to make approach.

He doesn't sound as Jason at all.

Royraiden
Mar-13-2013, 23:45
Not because of that question at all.

He was banned because of criticising the moderation policy there ,
Loft warned him that he isn't An. Petrovich and that he is CEO and have his own opinion.

It wasn't about criticism of the game but about what happened with the release of CloD really and why.

But the Russian forum was really much, much less moderated and only there you have some real info
what BoS will be.

Snapper that answer from Loft looked to me very nice and combined with the last one( steam patch) it looks like
he is not against it at all if the patch is good and I'm pretty shure it is.
My Russian is bad, but I think he will talk with someone from TF if they like to make approach.
He emphasised two times "if" the patch is good and better to talk to him when the patch is ready.

He doesn't sound as Jason at all.
Lets hope something can indeed be worked out :)

kg55_Kaiser
Mar-14-2013, 02:26
I think it would depend on the quality of the patch,
if the patch will be at a height, it will certainly will be of interest from 1C-777,
and only then will it be interested in the discussion on cooperation.

The meantime should not rush.

Osprey
Mar-21-2013, 12:22
I was barely interested in BOS but really lost interest when they rebuffed the call for support for large numbers of AI in ground and air (as COD can do now). They couldn't see the reason for this (for some reason) and it appears that 50 AI of any type are about the limit.

Can't see me buying it, especially with recent COD progress :) Russia will welcome it, I can just see an iron curtain where the West sticks to the Western Front - that'll do me fine thanks.

Skoshi_Tiger
Mar-24-2013, 09:28
Interesting look at the number of people currently looking at the two boards. Il2 site has currently 24 Vs ATAG with 240 at the time of this post.

I guess they will get more when they can show what they're making and stir up a bit of discussion.

Cheers!

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-17-2013, 05:30
Damn that place is worse than the banana :stunned:

Well it looks like people were throwing my name around there. GJ to Hooves and others for apparently holding that grudge! Apparently talking about the faults of the ROF engine (as 1000's of others have) makes you agenda driven and a "basher" lol. So good ol Flatspin puts up a moderation message saying stop with the personal attacks etc of developers and other community members, even though 50% of the DCSWWII thread is filled with just that. But when I came in there and said what I did above, to those personally attacking me, then and only then did he decide to pull the thread down to do some moderation :D

I guess it's all right to attack someone if it goes along with the agenda of that forum in the 1st place. But defending yourself against it is clearly wrong lol. Thank god there is no reason to post over there. And they say I have an agenda.

That place is worse than banana. It makes sense when you look at the moderators.

Archie
Sep-17-2013, 05:34
Seems like it. Didn't really expect anything different though. Personal attacks against some people,or projects seem to stay there for quite a while. Its when you fight back things disappear quickly...

Kling
Sep-17-2013, 06:43
Someone complained the other day about Cliffs of dover being unplayable so I replied and asked if he really had tried the latest TF patches and that there is another patch coming this month which will make the game stunning and further increase FPS. That was all it said. No attacks or bad language or anything.
My reply is deleted. So one is not allowed to mention Clod or TF on the BOS forums apparently.

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-25-2013, 17:11
Oh man, you can't make this stuff up.. Looks like Jason is back at it deleting all concerns and criticisms of their upcoming game.

Here's what I posted in the General Discussion section in the thread called "Object Limit" http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1419-object-limit/

My post was second to last.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5947/qiwb.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/qiwb.png/)

I guess saying the object limits, facts etc., are not allowed.. It's a shame he feels the need to act that way.

Just wait for the IL2 community to get their hands on the game.. They'll find out about those limits real quick. Brushing them under the carpet isn't going to help.

gavagai
Sep-25-2013, 21:09
Supposedly they refined the AI code to be less resource intensive. I haven't seen any evidence either way as to how big the improvement is.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Sep-26-2013, 02:16
@bliss, seems you have some "friends" in the steam forum too. yikes

9./JG52 Ziegler
Sep-27-2013, 09:04
It's such a silly notion: "We have nothing to do with Clod and won't discuss it, but TF should have shown respect for property and discussed it with us!"

Or something like that.:goofy

If I bought/leased a Ford truck that turned out to be defective and performing badly, but the dealership refused to repair it any further because they're only working on newer, different models now....it would be ludicrous for Ford to turn around and say, "But you have no right to repair your truck by independent mechanics without talking with us first (even though we just said we won't talk about it). Show some respect!"

Am I missing something here? :doh:

Yes, it was a Chevy that you bought/leased that turned out to be defective. :-P

Tettric
Oct-26-2013, 10:16
I sense too much hate towards Jason and the Rof team, I dont know him personally so I have nothing against it and I actually enjoyed Rof when I used to play it.I mean he wasnt involved with Clod,he wasnt the one who ditched a marvellous but unfinnished product.
Personally I'm wary of Jason but not the rest of the team.
I am wary of Jason for a number of reasons the first of which being, he claims Oleg was "talking out of his ass" when Oleg said that the RoF engine probably wouldn't be able to handle what they wanted to achieve with the CloD engine, it's not the language used here that gets me or even the illogical and untrue nature of the statement along with the fact the no attempt was made to prove or substantiate the claim. The problem is that it came form the same man who said this
"Everyone,
Knock off the nonsense. All of you are grown men acting like children. Stop the insults, stop the trolling, stop the BS period. We expected this and now you've had all weekend to say what you wanted, now it's time to stop throwing crap at each other."
I'm not sure if I'm missing anything here but this to me shows Jason is a Hypocrite.
As well as this the Forums he runs are like nations under a fascist dictator where free speech only exists for those who say the right things about the right things and although I understand that discussions have to be kept relevant it strikes me that all the time and effort goes into censoring questions and comparisons that Jason doesn't like while heated and profane arguments rage somewhere else on the forum as to whether Justin Beiber should be allowed to live or not.

Please note that the above debate on Justin Beiber's right to live didn't actually occur but I had to give an example of an unrelated discussion :)

As it is Jason does not seem to have interests in anything other than blinkering his audience into paying for his products and his products alone which is not particularly good for our niche market and could lead to some developers shying away from our Genre and not developing sims that could potentially be better than BoS.

Anyway this isn't stopping me from buying the game it just means I have no intention of spending any time on the Forums.

ChiefRedCloud
Oct-26-2013, 11:10
http://imageshack.us/a/img194/8633/7aa.gif

Screamadelica
Oct-26-2013, 22:37
Justin Bieber...Arghhhh... I come here to get away from that sort of thing! :)

Mastiff
Dec-09-2013, 16:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eKmSQ6oZ9M&feature=share&list=UU1z2Ak7eJDtQ41i4IZCaeyQ

Skoshi_Tiger
Dec-09-2013, 21:43
Nice video Mastiff.

One thing I noticed was how easy it was to track the e/a in your video. There was only one place where I could not see it (and that is after compression for youtube). I definately have to look at my settings. In a similar situation on my system the plane would be fading in and out of visibility. (which is very frustrating).

If setting don't fix it I might have to start saving to upgrade my video card.

Cheers and thanks!

Tycoon
Mar-04-2014, 23:55
Well I think we should keep this sticky alive or have it taken down!roflmao

Wulf
Mar-05-2014, 03:34
So who actually owns CloD these days (the un-modded base game I mean)? I guess what I'm driving at is, if the owner(s) decided that CloD was becoming "problematic" in terms of other business ventures that may be in the pipeline, and should perhaps, no longer be 'supported', who would that be?

Tvrdi
Mar-05-2014, 04:07
...

bongodriver
Mar-05-2014, 06:13
So who actually owns CloD these days (the un-modded base game I mean)? I guess what I'm driving at is, if the owner(s) decided that CloD was becoming "problematic" in terms of other business ventures that may be in the pipeline, and should perhaps, no longer be 'supported', who would that be?

Well 1C own the rights, and as far as 1C are concerned they have dropped support for it, they have even stopped distributing the game themselves and if it wasn't for Ubisoft/Steam we would not be able to buy it at all, a kind of irony that now we can thank Ubisoft for keeping it alive.

Wulf
Mar-05-2014, 06:45
Well 1C own the rights, and as far as 1C are concerned they have dropped support for it, they have even stopped distributing the game themselves and if it wasn't for Ubisoft/Steam we would not be able to buy it at all, a kind of irony that now we can thank Ubisoft for keeping it alive.


So if IC 'own the rights' to the game, does that mean they could 'pull the plug' if it suited their purposes? Could they, for example, insist that Ubisoft/Steam stop hosting the game?

What does "owning the rights" actually mean?

bongodriver
Mar-05-2014, 06:55
1C have pulled the plug, the only thing keeping it going is Ubisofts own rights as a distributor written into some sort of contract, if 1C/777 could shut it completely down then they would do it in a hartbeat.

vranac
Mar-05-2014, 07:47
You're right about pulling the plug but 1C is still selling CloD in Russia.

bongodriver
Mar-05-2014, 08:53
on the 1C homepage it doesn't appear to be available.

vranac
Mar-05-2014, 09:11
I think that's because 1c was not distributor for the rest of the world. You can't buy CloD through steam in Russia as far as I know.
They just divided distribution.

http://www.1csc.ru/games/pc/17171-il2-shturmovik-bitva-za-britaniyu#about

Archie
Mar-05-2014, 09:42
The absolute ideal thing would be for a way for CoD to be detached from Steam...

Tycoon
Mar-05-2014, 14:37
1C have pulled the plug, the only thing keeping it going is Ubisofts own rights as a distributor written into some sort of contract, if 1C/777 could shut it completely down then they would do it in a hartbeat.

Isn't that speculation? Like, pure speculation?

bongodriver
Mar-06-2014, 15:26
Isn't that speculation? Like, pure speculation?

That 1C have pulled the plug? absolutely not speculation.

that 1C would kill it dead in a heartbeat? slight speculation but very likely.

dburne
Mar-06-2014, 19:20
The absolute ideal thing would be for a way for CoD to be detached from Steam...

That would be awesome, Cliffs of Dover is the only reason I have Steam on my system, would love to be able to get rid of it.

Taxman
Mar-06-2014, 20:19
That would be awesome, Cliffs of Dover is the only reason I have Steam on my system, would love to be able to get rid of it.


Same here:woohoo:

Tycoon
Mar-06-2014, 20:58
That 1C have pulled the plug? absolutely not speculation.

that 1C would kill it dead in a heartbeat? slight speculation but very likely.

Hold on I'am confused, did 1C just recently pull the plug on il 2 1946 as well? Because I didn't see it on the 1C homepage either.

bongodriver
Mar-07-2014, 03:41
Hold on I'am confused, did 1C just recently pull the plug on il 2 1946 as well? Because I didn't see it on the 1C homepage either.

So cancellation of further development and cancelling the sequel mid project and sacking the development team is not pulling the plug? if 1C haven't completely abandoned Clod then why the hell are they buggering around developing another sim? we were already in line for a Eastern front theatre with the Battle of Moscow sequel to Clod, the game engine was perfectly fixable (TF's work proves that), 1C took all our money and cancelled Clod, now we are going to have to spend it all over again for a lesser product.

vranac
Mar-07-2014, 07:05
Tycoon, we would be already flying that theater a year ago with winter and autumn map and that sequel would be integrated with CloD like in old il2 series.
That one would be much cheaper (50 vs 90) and probably that's the one of the reasons for pooling the plug.

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo41/ka1ros/CloD/th_shot_20120629_122809.jpg (http://s360.photobucket.com/user/ka1ros/media/CloD/shot_20120629_122809.jpg.html)http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo41/ka1ros/CloD/th_G2.jpg (http://s360.photobucket.com/user/ka1ros/media/CloD/G2.jpg.html)http://www.dodaj.rs/t/3C/JU/1lX3NCeN/shot20120330122419.jpg (http://www.dodaj.rs/?3C/JU/1lX3NCeN/shot20120330122419.jpg)http://www.dodaj.rs/t/3I/jO/YNy3yCg/shot20120720170525.jpg (http://www.dodaj.rs/?3I/jO/YNy3yCg/shot20120720170525.jpg)http://www.dodaj.rs/t/B/LY/3oQeaRqS/shot.jpg (http://www.dodaj.rs/?B/LY/3oQeaRqS/shot.jpg)http://www.dodaj.rs/t/13/J3/2PyQRohK/shot20120330133952.jpg (http://www.dodaj.rs/?13/J3/2PyQRohK/shot20120330133952.jpg)

Tycoon
Mar-07-2014, 13:22
So cancellation of further development and cancelling the sequel mid project and sacking the development team is not pulling the plug? if 1C haven't completely abandoned Clod then why the hell are they buggering around developing another sim? we were already in line for a Eastern front theatre with the Battle of Moscow sequel to Clod, the game engine was perfectly fixable (TF's work proves that), 1C took all our money and cancelled Clod, now we are going to have to spend it all over again for a lesser product.

Uh, that doesn't really answer the question, but yes of course 1c has pulled the plug, Sorry I was confused and thought you were specifically sighting the bos devs as the people that would shut it down if they could, my silly mistake! And Vranc wasn't the reason bom was killed was because cod was viewed as unfixable up to that point? That was before team fusion I think.
(By the way was tf given permission to modify cod and given some code or did they have
to figure it out for them selves?

bongodriver
Mar-07-2014, 14:04
It answers the question I thought was being asked.

TF was not given permission to modify Clod, I believe they were even confronted with an attempt at hostility, all the work they are doing they figure out for themselves.

vranac
Mar-07-2014, 14:39
And Vranc wasn't the reason bom was killed was because cod was viewed as unfixable up to that point? That was before team fusion I think.

CloD unfixable ? We got 4 patches in 2012 IIRC and all of that while MG team was working hard on the sequel. Even if Ilya said that fixing CloD will not bring any revenue.
Do you think TF would go for such task with some broken engine ?

Tycoon
Mar-07-2014, 15:02
CloD unfixable ? We got 4 patches in 2012 IIRC and all of that while MG team was working hard on the sequel. Even if Ilya said that fixing CloD will not bring any revenue.
Do you think TF would go for such task with some broken engine ?

Well lets not kid ourselves here, before TF came along COD even with the patches was still very broken. From what I understand TF are the guys that really made this sim good, and they aren't out for money, they just want a good sim(don't we all!).

vranac
Mar-07-2014, 15:56
What was broken ? Have you been playing before TF ?

Tycoon
Mar-07-2014, 17:09
What was broken ? Have you been playing before TF ?

Are you saying nothing was broken? aircraft not being able to fly at altitude? lower fps? and a bunch of stuff! But come on man you know this as well as I do.

LuseKofte
Mar-07-2014, 17:35
clod was fucked up so much that people kept away from it even those who own it. So there would never been a eastern front was there.
I just checked out tf patch for boredom , I was amazed what I found. But I do not blame those who do not believe.

Skoshi_Tiger
Mar-07-2014, 19:17
I didn't think this was a CoD bashing thread, maybe I was wrong.

CoD was not perfect, but I was one of the lucky guys that had it working from day one. Since then through it's official development and the wonderful efforts of Team Fusion it's just got better and better!

From my perspective at least CoD had working trim from the first day. This is a basic function that ALL the BofS aircraft require to be flown in anywhere like a realistic manner. All the planes that use trim in BofS are broken. They do not simulate what flying one of these planes was like in the period depicted. Until they fix that up BofS in no more than a curiosity for me. luckily there is still 59% of the development to come.

Unfortunately for BofS, because it a spruced up WWI game the base functionality has not been implemented, and we have been officially told that the one and only developer that might have the skills and know-how to implement this new basic feature in the game is "Busy" doing other things.


What happens if that one developer gets pissed off and leaves the development team? What happens if he gets sick or gets bored with the idea of game development. Does the BofS development grinds to a halt?

To me that is REALLY scary in a development environment. No matter how good the sim is, if can't evolve and adapt it will die

Tycoon
Mar-07-2014, 19:28
I didn't think this was a CoD bashing thread, maybe I was wrong.



From my perspective at least CoD had working trim from the first day. This is a basic function that ALL the BofS aircraft require to be flown in anywhere like a realistic manner. All the planes that use trim in BofS are broken. They do not simulate what flying one of these planes was like in the period depicted. Until they fix that up BofS in no more than a curiosity for me. luckily there is still 59% of the development to come.



CoD had from day one, but BoS is'nt at day one. And who's bashing CoD?

Skoshi_Tiger
Mar-07-2014, 21:02
CoD had from day one, but BoS is'nt at day one. And who's bashing CoD?

I suppose you could argue about semantics, but for me day one for BofS was basically at the release of "early access". From the developers point of view the "Early access" program has nothing to do with Alpha or Beta Testing they have organized a community testing team for that. The early access program is to give paid up customers like myself early access to the sim. Maybe it was just a marketing ploy to build up the numbers of pre-purchases to aid in development. But to me the sim is still in limited release to paid customers.

I am very conscious of the state of development but items like trim are basic flight controls that these planes were designed to have. Even though they are grouped under the terms "secondary flight controls" the planes would have been grounded with out them being functional. They are that important to the flight of the aircraft. Next weekend looks like it will be a very important milestone in the development with the introduction of multiplayer. I wonder how many people will be flying the Soviet aircraft give the different states of functionality implemented in the modeled aircraft.

BofS is still undergoing development and is still a long way away from being ready for retail release, but then again Il2 was under continual "official" development for 10 years. As soon as development stops the sim dies unless a group of enthusiast's like TD and TF take up the reigns.

Maybe I was mistaken in the tone of some of the posts on this page, If so I apologizes about the bashing comment. some of them just seam as bit harsh in my opinion.

Cheers and fair skies!

dburne
Mar-07-2014, 21:05
Well Cliffs after the final official patch, was certainly playable - actually it was playable on my system even before that, but that patch helped it perform better for many that had problems running it. But still, it was very much broken, as evidenced by all the things TF has managed to fix since then.

Remember, that final patch was still in the works, no where near done, and was rushed out at the last minute due to the agreement and upcoming announcement that development would be ceased and no more work done on Cliffs of Dover, or Battle of Moscow or whatever it was, due to the agreement/merger between 1C and 777 to shelve what was, to develop what they wanted next, based on the ROF engine.

I think the Cliffs team very much could have fixed it, and wanted to fix it, but were just out of time - 1C's time that is... many fixes were likely already incorporated into the sequel, and they just were not allowed to go back and continue to fix Cliffs. Then the plug was pulled, to the dismay of many fans of the franchise.

I personally, like many others here, am extremely grateful for what Team Fusion has done, and are doing for the sim. We Cliffs fans are very lucky they are " keeping the dream alive".
I am so excited about TF 4.20 I can hardly describe it, can't wait to get some good offline campaign flying in with it.

I also have BOS I pre-ordered with early access, and am enjoying messing around with it and watching it go through it's development cycle as well. I certainly have room for both in my system, but it will be a long time I suspect before Cliffs, especially with TF's involvement, get's knocked off the top spot on my drive... and it just keeps getting better!!
Imagine what would have been, had it not been for what TF has done - hard to even imagine.

bongodriver
Mar-08-2014, 04:08
Don B has it spot on, the devs were simply taken off task by a money hungry 1C to get moving with the next cash cow in BoM, when 1C realised this is taking time they pulled the plug and decided money would come in quicker if they went into the 'fast food' end of the market.

vranac
Mar-08-2014, 05:20
BofS is still undergoing development and is still a long way away from being ready for retail release, but then again Il2 was under continual "official" development for 10 years. As soon as development stops the sim dies unless a group of enthusiast's like TD and TF take up the reigns.

Cheers and fair skies!

Long way? two or three months.

They got to sell 200.000 copies to continue.

LuseKofte
Mar-08-2014, 08:58
I am not bashing COD, I love COD, but it was so full of bugs that I abandoned it until I found this site. And that is the problem , no one believe me when I tell them how good cod has become.

vranac
Mar-08-2014, 09:30
What bugs were so annoying for you ? Could you write some of them, please?

I remember only one, sound bug, and that was resolved in a month.

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-08-2014, 10:39
What bugs were so annoying for you ? Could you write some of them, please?

I remember only one, sound bug, and that was resolved in a month.

Hmm, I'm not sure where we're going with this. I guess it depends on what you call "bug", or "glitch", or "missing features", or if anything was causing the sim/game to crash, or what.

Yes, Cliffs of Dover ran on my old computer fine, even on my then-GTX285 video card, with a few video options turned down. So I suspect that is what you mean by Clod not being "bugged". Otherwise, all we'd have to do is copy and paste the Team Fusion readme's for 3.00, 3.01, 4.00, 4.2, and the upcoming 5.00 just for a start. And I'm still not sure if my Spittie's cockpit will ever be finished (trim & brake lever animations, operating mirror).

We all have our pet peeves. AI, radio comms, anti aliasing, FM's, DM's, campaigns, screwy GUI's (get it? screwy...GUI? Rhymes! I thought of it myself :D) etc etc etc etc. Are they bugs? Are they missing features? Whatever, a lot weren't right with Clod right from the get go, and the MG/1C "fixes" broke more than they fixed -- just ask anyone who tried to start a Hurricane on an airfield! As they say in the Old South: "That dog don't hunt!" LOL

I had a revelation to how far we'd come in flight modelling alone when reading the 4.2 readme. My initial hyper-critical reaction to the Spitfire 1a 100 octane getting its top speed increased to the historical 310 mph IAS was to look up the TF Wiki and indignantly note the max speed there as 312 mph! Holy crap! Not even the real Supermarine Works could guarantee that close a spec on the real Spits! I had to chuckle at myself, because a mere year ago the same model couldn't even reach its then-17 angels ceiling without spluttering. Now THAT I call a bug of the first order!!!

So, please, let's not argue semantics here over what a bug is or isn't. With the final patched vanilla Clod many players couldn't even roll down a runway behind another player without his PC lurching down to single framerates because of the buggy particle effects of that lead plane's dust. To me, if it looks like a bug, acts like a bug, then it probably IS a bug.

Cliffs of Dover is my favourite sim, hands down. For me, Team Fusion is its salvation. Without TF, I believe I would've left Clod in utter frustration long ago and migrated over to DCS fulltime. Does BoS have bugs? Of course -- it's still in development. Did Clod have bugs? Of course! And still does, which thankfully Team Fusion is squishing as an ongoing process. I do hope, for BoS' sake, that their many beta testers' observations and recommendations are taken in good faith and acted upon by the developers for a polished, completed product that Clod was NOT upon release.

LuseKofte
Mar-08-2014, 11:28
Well said Snapper, many of you guys know me best for being a BOS fanboy, you are wrong I am a Russian airplane fan, witch happened to like the LAGG and IL2 as is. But COD is still my favorite, and I work constantly to get more people into it.

vranac
Mar-08-2014, 12:35
LuseKofte, you didn't answer on my simple question.

Snapper I'm not saying that there were no bugs, just saying that they wasn't game breakers. I just remembered another one , "ghost planes" , also
quickly resolved when reported and documented to devs.

No one is underestimating TF achievements but MG team also improved FM and CEM with a limited time devoted to Cliffs.
They were making FM for the new aeroplanes and that was their main task to keep them afloat.
Those are from one of the patches.

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/2m/b8/3Krm1k2D/109.jpghttp://www.dodaj.rs/f/s/wL/1D5IGKBu/hurri.jpg
http://www.dodaj.rs/f/1J/Ot/4SGyF4EA/spitia.jpg

I never had any problems with particle effects with my midrange card from 2011. It's great that they are optimized by TF.

And about BoS like Bongodriver nicely said they are going for the 'fast food' end of the market. Those stuff that we're discussing here, historical FM and DM are trivia for them.


Posted 24 February 2014 - 15:35


=
R = NOREMORS, on Feb 24 2014 - 12:04, said:

Now the elevator felt depending on the speed of the aircraft - ie the higher the speed the harder it is to squeeze, but with the rudder and ailerons can not say this.

Albert, you'll edit it or is it the final decision of the physical model of rudder and ailerons?


I'll now say heresy, but this is trivia. Necessary to complete the priority tasks actually make the game, and then indefinitely (I suspect the tradition of the genre, as much as the game will exist), set up different things. Will slam doors, charges, declarations of love, mistrust, demand a refund, but then. Now this is trivia .
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/1225-obsuzhdenie-54-j-chasti-dnevnikov-razrabotchika/page-13&usg=ALkJrhhachDKG9aavPZ92uW_8iL-TCVSLw#entry138797

Just reading memoirs from Lipfert


Suddenly in front of me in tears clouds appeared single IL-2, but it almost immediately disappeared again in the cloud. Then again, I saw him through the haze like a ghost.
Once this IL-2 again appeared out of the cloud, I dived on him. Before he could do anything, I opened fire with all weapons. On the enemy aircraft were seen several hits. I kept firing until he was very close to him. Russian was flying straight ahead and acted as if this frenetic pounding never started. Damn, he was stubborn!

My speed was too high, and I was forced to turn away, not to ram it. I heard on the radio voice of the punter: "Attention," Indians "to the left and behind you! I'm holding up. Attack again, this fellow was not getting enough! "

New attack! I turned my plane. Reduce speed and slowly approaching! I fully opened radiator, and then pulled the trigger. By this time the Russian finally noticed what was happening. Although his plane was badly damaged, he maneuvered skillfully, preventing me to achieve a greater number of hits.

I slowly reduced the distance, heaping heavy fire on the enemy from the plane started to fall off the pieces, there was a heavy smoke. But he did not fall! I noticed that the Russian is not trying to escape in the clouds, in which it is impossible to attack.

As a result, when I went to the third attack, it is through a break in the clouds and dived toward Gelendzhik. But I caught up with him again and opened fire with all weapons. It was amazing how much enemy machine could survive. I saw that the IL-2 are missing large chunks of fuselage and wings.Light flames was burning out of the engine. Soon the enemy aircraft went into a steep dive. Near Kabardinki [52] it crashed into the water and drowned, while I gained altitude and flew towards the sea to get away from enemy anti-aircraft fire.

Compare that with BoS, trrrrt, Il2 is falling apart

Tycoon
Mar-08-2014, 13:49
Falling, this the end, hold you're breath and count to ten, feel the earth move and then.....play COD! (the skyfall of flight simming is happening)roflmao

LuseKofte
Mar-08-2014, 14:10
I bought COD when it came out, hell I spent a lot of money on a new rig just for it. It was simply unplayable. We where about 30 + players planning to convert to clod. ALL of us dumped the game 4 days later and never looked back. Only 4 of us did come back to it. What the f**k is the matter with you, I am not in any way obligated to give you any answer.
You have been damn rude about BOS for month to end and now you gonna arrest me on CLOD, I am playing CLOD and I like it damn it.

Tycoon
Mar-08-2014, 14:39
Sorry everyone I just wanted to have some lighthearted posting about BoS and CoD but its just too emotionally charged right now. Please LuseKofte watch your language.

LuseKofte
Mar-08-2014, 16:22
The guy is showing charts but still people threw away CLOD, he want answers for what was wrong and none was on any servers. I really hoped for a development on CLOD and when they showed those beautiful models of IL2 I really got hooked and then boom nothing.
I remember all the waiting many years of waiting, and the mix of disappointment and amazement of what they tried to make and in many ways manage. But when it was out, almost 85 % of the customers did not have a rig good enough to run it, and those of us who did got stutters and ctd. And that with the best GPU available.
After so many years of waiting hearing it would come out and did not, imagine the disappointment when it finally did. People got so angry that many to this day do not want to touch it. Remember this was in the days flightsims got a huge community from IL 2 and MS combatsim among many others, and all of those people waited for many years.

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-08-2014, 17:37
Points are made by all here.

Sorry, Vranac, I misunderstood your earlier post and thought you said there was only one bug in vanilla Cloud -- the sound bug.

Anyway, I'm closing this thread for the time being. Time for a beer. :D

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-08-2014, 21:13
OK. I had three beers! Thread's open! :D

Screamadelica
Mar-08-2014, 22:26
:alcohol: :popcorn2:

Tycoon
Mar-08-2014, 22:28
OK. I had three beers! Thread's open! :D

Thanks snapper:D

Archie
Mar-09-2014, 06:49
Right, back to the moaning ;)
I don't know why, but I am getting less impressed with every update, not more. Now the news that BoS servers might not even be able to handle 64 players excites me even less.
I do feel I wasted $90 on something thats going to sit idle on my hard drive most of the time. TF modded CoD is just too good to look on BoS with much enthusiasm for me..

vranac
Mar-09-2014, 08:26
Thanks Snapper ;-)


The guy is showing charts but still people threw away CLOD, he want answers for what was wrong and none was on any servers. I really hoped for a development on CLOD and when they showed those beautiful models of IL2 I really got hooked and then boom nothing.
I remember all the waiting many years of waiting, and the mix of disappointment and amazement of what they tried to make and in many ways manage. But when it was out, almost 85 % of the customers did not have a rig good enough to run it, and those of us who did got stutters and ctd. And that with the best GPU available.
After so many years of waiting hearing it would come out and did not, imagine the disappointment when it finally did. People got so angry that many to this day do not want to touch it. Remember this was in the days flightsims got a huge community from IL 2 and MS combatsim among many others, and all of those people waited for many years.

So you don't remember any bug and CloD was unplayable on your super duper PC. My friend was playing it on poor 9600gt 512MB VRAM and AMD x2 CPU.
He had stops because of the lack of VRAM (constantly drawing data from HDD) but that didn't stop him shooting down enemy planes.
Soon he upgraded to x4 955 @ 4 GHz and gtx560.
There were servers and IIRC there were 3 Repka servers, one on channel map and two with smaller maps and SYN(now ATAG).
I have tracks from that early period.
You're correct that a lot of pilots didn't have PC good enough to run CloD well. That was the biggest problem. I still remember "my mighty 9800gt can't run this s**#y game".
Those were the people with 4-5 years old PC's and GPU's.
And you're wrong about big community, HL was already down to some 400 pilots with most of them flying without cockpits.
Practically il2 was kept only by SEOW, all other online wars which were popular stopped with the lack of interest.

Problems with CTD's started later when devs started tweaking graphic engine(colours, lightning...). I had them also, two or three weekly, terrible really.
And when MG team analyzed crash dumps most of them were related with flash player (youtube) and some overlay programs.

LuseKofte
Mar-18-2014, 03:44
Well, Vranac I have been working a lot for getting people to try clod, just try it once. I think CLOD is the most realistic WW2 sim to date. I like BOS and the feel of flight the LAGG give me, but I still think clod is better.
There is a general feeling among IL 2 1946 pilots that 1c let them down, actually hurt their feelings. There is no other explanation for the reluctant to come back and try it. I know a lot of these people being active since the early 2000 in IL2 communities. It is no longer the game it is passion. They really feel 1c and Oleg fucked them over.

For the BOS CLOD debate, it bring just the same passion and suicidal attitude of community. It was soon apparent that clod flyers did the same towards BOS that CLOD has suffered against it self. To me CLOD is too narrow, can't bring my self to fly it too often. I will spend extra time flying BOS, not as a replacement for CLOD.
I did not know I had any passion for a game, but this constant CLOD vs BOS debate has shown I do. But I have jumped off that train, I think we all ought to fly what we want and not make any drama about what other choose to do

LuseKofte
Mar-18-2014, 03:54
Another thing I have noticed on ATAG server lately is the lack of the old players and the amount of the new. This has also brought a new attitude to the server somehow.
I know this sounds like a everything was better before kind of post. But the lack of a second populated server is very clear now.
I think there are more gamers on today than simmers. T´For those liking Dogfight , that is probably ok , for those like me more of a campaign kind of guy. Like to do the objective and win the map it is not ok at all. It actually brought me to play offline IL2 1946 more than fly CLOD.

9./JG52_J-HAT
Mar-18-2014, 06:07
While I haven't benn online for a couple of week except for some late hours a coupel of days, maybe it would be nice to start populating other servers too? Like SOW? I'll see when I get back online if I can get some hours on the SOW server. See it it gets full when there are people there.

About BoS, I'm still waiting for it to be released.

Chuck_Owl
Mar-27-2014, 11:56
Edited because Chuck is blind as a bat.

Arthursmedley
Mar-27-2014, 14:15
I created a poll regarding tail number customization on the BoS forums, just to see what people thought about it.

Guess what? An admin simply deleted it an hour later.

GOSH I hate censorship.



What are you talking about? I just voted in your poll. it's here;

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/5146-poll-what-kind-customization-would-you-want-see-your-tail/

Chuck_Owl
Mar-27-2014, 14:34
What are you talking about? I just voted in your poll. it's here;

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/5146-poll-what-kind-customization-would-you-want-see-your-tail/

My bad, it got moved. I hadn't realized there was a Polls section.

Tvrdi
Mar-27-2014, 14:42
@Lusekofte. Ill tell you why some of us doesnt have high hopes for BOS.
Some of us (Bliss, me etc etc) were core bera testers for Rise of flight...same dev team, same engine..We know all limitations (huge AIs impact on CPU, VERY limited No of ground units which can be used in MP etc etc)...we know how they work, breed,...everything. There were few cases when, we, core beta testers found out serious bugs in FMs. It was all ignored. Some testers even diplayed papers with tests. Only 2 errors (reported by testers) was fixed. N17 roll rate and Se5a "glass" engine. Why you think this time will be different with BOS? I love sims, I would really like it to be different this time. But IMHO all they care for is selling more planes, badges and modifications.
And again, theres no money which can buy passion, dedication and commitment which Team Fusion possesses. For sims in general.
And at the end. Time will tell. I would be glad if turns out I was wrong.

startrekmike
Mar-27-2014, 17:38
@Lusekofte. Ill tell you why some of us doesnt have high hopes for BOS.
Some of us (Bliss, me etc etc) were core bera testers for Rise of flight...same dev team, same engine..We know all limitations (huge AIs impact on CPU, VERY limited No of ground units which can be used in MP etc etc)...we know how they work, breed,...everything. There were few cases when, we, core beta testers found out serious bugs in FMs. It was all ignored. Some testers even diplayed papers with tests. Only 2 errors (reported by testers) was fixed. N17 roll rate and Se5a "glass" engine. Why you think this time will be different with BOS? I love sims, I would really like it to be different this time. But IMHO all they care for is selling more planes, badges and modifications.
And again, theres no money which can buy passion, dedication and commitment which Team Fusion possesses. For sims in general.
And at the end. Time will tell. I would be glad if turns out I was wrong.


I can appreciate where you are coming from, there are things about ROF that I would love to see fixed (the Nieuport 28 is kinda a go-to for me on that one) and you are correct that the engine does impose some pretty hefty limits when it comes to AI CPU usage and active units and objects you can have on the battlefield, all of those are very valid complaints that 777/1C game studios should be addressing, I really hope they come back to ROF after BoS is out to kinda polish up a lot of things that desperately need it.

In addition to all that, I think the biggest misstep that 777 made was with the mission editor, I think we all can agree that sims live and die on having a good, clean and straightforward editor (like DCS, IL-2 1946 and CLoD, BMS, etc) that players can use to create not only content that they specifically want but content that they can share with the community as a whole, this is something that Rise of flight's editor fails to do because it is so awkwardly designed and nobody wants to step up and make a solid set of straightforward tutorials that cover most commonly needed procedures.

Still, despite those complaints, despite my utter disappointment with the editor and all of the that, I still don't think that offsets (for me specifically) the fun I can have with it, granted, one must make missions on a smaller scale where instead of modeling a whole theater of war, you build everything around a specific mission for a specific flight of players and if you stick to that philosophy, ROF works really well, you don't need a ton of objects or active AI to make a good mission, you just need to understand the limits and work inside them, sure, you won't have big, sweeping missions that support a hundred players but you can have a great mission that focuses on perhaps a couple of flights doing specific realistic tasks.

When I think of missions in ROF on those terms, it does a very good job and works out really well, it is sad that I can't model a entire offensive, it is kinda annoying that I can't make a mission where I am flying over No man's land while troops are going over the top on the ground but that does not mean I can't make a enjoyable mission for a smaller number of players (4 to 8 is usually a good number I find).

Cliffs of Dover is superior in terms of the editor and what you can do with it, that is simply not debatable, the things that are done on the ATAG server are on a far larger scale than what you might find on ROF or even BoS when it is released and perhaps that ability to build missions to a large scale is why I enjoy working with Cliffs of Dover and making missions for my friends and I to fly, nothing (as of yet) will replace that.


So, with all that said, after spending a little bit of time with BoS's early access version, I don't think it will correct every flaw that ROF has, it seems that some things are going to be better (flight models seem to be on the right track if a bit incomplete at this specific juncture, the graphics detail is better than ROF, the terrain looks better, there seems to be more detail on ground vehicles and units, etc, etc) but is that going to be enough to change the inherent limitations of the DN engine? Probably not, there might be some things that are made better but as a whole, the rules that apply to ROF mission making will still no doubt apply to BoS mission making.

So, when you compare the flexibility of the CloD editor and engine with that of ROF or BoS, of coarse things won't add up, of coarse you won't be able to make a huge, theater scale mission with hundreds of active units, that is simply not the scale they seem to be shooting for, it seems that they are going for smaller scale missions on a individual flight level and for that, the DN engine does just fine, I have played some great missions but they tend to be more focused on specific actions as opposed to the whole theater, in some ways I prefer it, it makes the missions feel more, I don't know, more personal. (perhaps it is also because I only like to fly isolated missions, it is something that started with DCS where I could not get into the huge public server missions where you have like 20 A-10's all attacking the same targets, it was confusing, unwieldy and boring as a result).

I suppose the main thrust of this rambling post is really that while I agree with pretty much every complaint leveled against ROF (except that it is "arcade", that is nonsense but not a lot of folks use that term to describe ROF anyway here) and it's engine, I perhaps am more forgiving because I don't expect it to be able to do what CloD can do in terms of mission size and such, some might call that lack of scale a "step back" and perhaps that is a correct point of view but at the same time, I am willing to put up with that reduced mission scale since the DN engine brings a lot of other stuff to the table that I really, really like and if I make missions that work inside the DN engines limitations, I find that there is a lot of fun to be had, just not with a hundred players.

I fully understand the frustration that you and Bliss feel about 777 and while I don't agree with all of it, I respect your point's of view, still, it is just your point of view and since I don't have any inside information, I cannot arbitrarily believe that they did not fix anything but a few issues, I will freely admit that I can see issues that they have not fixed for some time, despite constant community feedback requesting it (the lack of a DIIIau engine, the Nieuport 28's horrible flight model, the suspect data used for the DR-1 top speed being good examples) but at the same time, as I have said in other posts, I still like ROF, I still don't regret putting down money for BoS and while that may be because I am not in ATAG and as such, I don't need to worry about missions on ATAG scale, it is still a valid position none the less.

Ugh, sorry, I am rambling on and on but I am trying to word this carefully so as not to give a false impression of what I am really saying, I love CloD and I find that I am playing it more and more as the TF mods get better and better, still, I don't look at ROF/BoS and instantly compare it directly to CloD, I understand that ROF/BoS is going to deal with missions on a smaller scale and while that is a shame in some ways, it does not mean I can't make a enjoyable mission that is perhaps a bit more focused on a single part of a battle that eight to 12 players can enjoy a great deal.

I suppose that in the end, I have enough room on my hard drive for all my sims and I tend to look at them all individually, I don't play BoS and say "I wish this was more like CloD" because I already have CloD, I can play that if I want, I don't play CloD and go "this is bullshit, I can't use the whole cockpit like DCS?!" because that is silly, as I said, I look at them individually so I have a hard time choosing sides, this is made even more difficult because I simply don't care about the politics behind CloD's development, I was not following it's development so I was never really aware anyway.

Please note, I am not writing this in any emotional state, simply providing my perspective, I am not upset, I am not arguing with anyone as I have been VERY careful to make sure that I am not saying anyone here is wrong, just providing my take on the whole thing in one post in hopes that I am not seen as such a enemy as some see me as here, I fully agree that ROF has flaws, some of them are pretty big but at the end of the day, as far as I am personally concerned, I can work inside those flaws and get a very enjoyable simulation experience, the same will go for BoS and the same goes for every other sim I own.

Hopefully that provides some context to my other posts that perhaps will make them seem less negative (as I originally wished them to be).


Again, just to be super, super clear, I am agreeing with you and Bliss on much of your complaints, seriously, I am just saying why they don't bother me as much and how I work around them.

Wulf
Mar-27-2014, 17:41
@Lusekofte. Ill tell you why some of us doesnt have high hopes for BOS.
Some of us (Bliss, me etc etc) were core bera testers for Rise of flight...same dev team, same engine..We know all limitations (huge AIs impact on CPU, VERY limited No of ground units which can be used in MP etc etc)...we know how they work, breed,...everything. There were few cases when, we, core beta testers found out serious bugs in FMs. It was all ignored. Some testers even diplayed papers with tests. Only 2 errors (reported by testers) was fixed. N17 roll rate and Se5a "glass" engine. Why you think this time will be different with BOS? I love sims, I would really like it to be different this time. But IMHO all they care for is selling more planes, badges and modifications.
And again, theres no money which can buy passion, dedication and commitment which Team Fusion possesses. For sims in general.
And at the end. Time will tell. I would be glad if turns out I was wrong.


Wow, I appear to be getting more and more confused by the day (I'm over 50 you know :ind:). Anyway, so the ROF engine is 'shite' because it can't handle AI? Is that what you're saying? OK, but didn't we just ditch AI from the main ATAG server to try and get CloD run a little more smoothly? So .... hmmmmmmmmmmm

Tvrdi
Mar-27-2014, 19:23
Wow, I appear to be getting more and more confused by the day (I'm over 50 you know :ind:). Anyway, so the ROF engine is 'shite' because it can't handle AI? Is that what you're saying? OK, but didn't we just ditch AI from the main ATAG server to try and get CloD run a little more smoothly? So .... hmmmmmmmmmmm

Never said ROF engine is shite. Dont put your own words in my mouth. I said it is very limited in how it handles large numbers of ground units in MP. Also it seams that AI has a great impact on CPU. It has in every sim but in DN engine is a HUGE. Maybe they will overcome that or we all would have stronger CPUs in next years.....so that wouldnt be such an big issue. It isnt such a big issue in ROF cause in WW1 there wasnt so many on the ground anyways. Here, we have more tanks, guns, trucks, AI planes etc etc...
and BTW, when ROF came out it was all heavy stuttering for some of us and pretty soon they sorted it out....but then, they were NEQB team....we will see...

Wulf
Mar-27-2014, 20:07
Never said ROF engine is shite. Dont put your own words in my mouth. I said it is very limited in how it handles large numbers of ground units in MP. Also it seams that AI has a great impact on CPU. It has in every sim but in DN engine is a HUGE. Maybe they will overcome that or we all would have stronger CPUs in next years.....so that wouldnt be such an big issue. It isnt such a big issue in ROF cause in WW1 there wasnt so many on the ground anyways. Here, we have more tanks, guns, trucks, AI planes etc etc...
and BTW, when ROF came out it was all heavy stuttering for some of us and pretty soon they sorted it out....but then, they were NEQB team....we will see...


Actually, I didn't say, at any stage, that you said the ROF engine is "shite". What I did was to pose a question. I said, are you saying it's shite. There's a difference.

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-27-2014, 20:27
Actually, I didn't say, at any stage, that you said the ROF engine is "shite". What I did was to pose a question. I said, are you saying it's shite. There's a difference.

It's misunderstanding, that's all. You used parenthesis to place emphasis on the word 'shite' which could easily be taken to mean a mistakenly apportioned quote. No big "shite". :D

:salute:

Archie
Mar-28-2014, 02:59
It's misunderstanding, that's all. You used parenthesis to place emphasis on the word 'shite' which could easily be taken to mean a mistakenly apportioned quote. No big "shite". :D

:salute:

Its the beauty of the internet. More tea vicar?

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-28-2014, 05:43
Its the beauty of the internet. More tea vicar?

Just doing my job. :D

Chuck_Owl
Mar-28-2014, 08:18
I can appreciate where you are coming from, there are things about ROF that I would love to see fixed (the Nieuport 28 is kinda a go-to for me on that one) and you are correct that the engine does impose some pretty hefty limits when it comes to AI CPU usage and active units and objects you can have on the battlefield, all of those are very valid complaints that 777/1C game studios should be addressing, I really hope they come back to ROF after BoS is out to kinda polish up a lot of things that desperately need it.

In addition to all that, I think the biggest misstep that 777 made was with the mission editor, I think we all can agree that sims live and die on having a good, clean and straightforward editor (like DCS, IL-2 1946 and CLoD, BMS, etc) that players can use to create not only content that they specifically want but content that they can share with the community as a whole, this is something that Rise of flight's editor fails to do because it is so awkwardly designed and nobody wants to step up and make a solid set of straightforward tutorials that cover most commonly needed procedures.

Still, despite those complaints, despite my utter disappointment with the editor and all of the that, I still don't think that offsets (for me specifically) the fun I can have with it, granted, one must make missions on a smaller scale where instead of modeling a whole theater of war, you build everything around a specific mission for a specific flight of players and if you stick to that philosophy, ROF works really well, you don't need a ton of objects or active AI to make a good mission, you just need to understand the limits and work inside them, sure, you won't have big, sweeping missions that support a hundred players but you can have a great mission that focuses on perhaps a couple of flights doing specific realistic tasks.

When I think of missions in ROF on those terms, it does a very good job and works out really well, it is sad that I can't model a entire offensive, it is kinda annoying that I can't make a mission where I am flying over No man's land while troops are going over the top on the ground but that does not mean I can't make a enjoyable mission for a smaller number of players (4 to 8 is usually a good number I find).

Cliffs of Dover is superior in terms of the editor and what you can do with it, that is simply not debatable, the things that are done on the ATAG server are on a far larger scale than what you might find on ROF or even BoS when it is released and perhaps that ability to build missions to a large scale is why I enjoy working with Cliffs of Dover and making missions for my friends and I to fly, nothing (as of yet) will replace that.


So, with all that said, after spending a little bit of time with BoS's early access version, I don't think it will correct every flaw that ROF has, it seems that some things are going to be better (flight models seem to be on the right track if a bit incomplete at this specific juncture, the graphics detail is better than ROF, the terrain looks better, there seems to be more detail on ground vehicles and units, etc, etc) but is that going to be enough to change the inherent limitations of the DN engine? Probably not, there might be some things that are made better but as a whole, the rules that apply to ROF mission making will still no doubt apply to BoS mission making.

So, when you compare the flexibility of the CloD editor and engine with that of ROF or BoS, of coarse things won't add up, of coarse you won't be able to make a huge, theater scale mission with hundreds of active units, that is simply not the scale they seem to be shooting for, it seems that they are going for smaller scale missions on a individual flight level and for that, the DN engine does just fine, I have played some great missions but they tend to be more focused on specific actions as opposed to the whole theater, in some ways I prefer it, it makes the missions feel more, I don't know, more personal. (perhaps it is also because I only like to fly isolated missions, it is something that started with DCS where I could not get into the huge public server missions where you have like 20 A-10's all attacking the same targets, it was confusing, unwieldy and boring as a result).

I suppose the main thrust of this rambling post is really that while I agree with pretty much every complaint leveled against ROF (except that it is "arcade", that is nonsense but not a lot of folks use that term to describe ROF anyway here) and it's engine, I perhaps am more forgiving because I don't expect it to be able to do what CloD can do in terms of mission size and such, some might call that lack of scale a "step back" and perhaps that is a correct point of view but at the same time, I am willing to put up with that reduced mission scale since the DN engine brings a lot of other stuff to the table that I really, really like and if I make missions that work inside the DN engines limitations, I find that there is a lot of fun to be had, just not with a hundred players.

I fully understand the frustration that you and Bliss feel about 777 and while I don't agree with all of it, I respect your point's of view, still, it is just your point of view and since I don't have any inside information, I cannot arbitrarily believe that they did not fix anything but a few issues, I will freely admit that I can see issues that they have not fixed for some time, despite constant community feedback requesting it (the lack of a DIIIau engine, the Nieuport 28's horrible flight model, the suspect data used for the DR-1 top speed being good examples) but at the same time, as I have said in other posts, I still like ROF, I still don't regret putting down money for BoS and while that may be because I am not in ATAG and as such, I don't need to worry about missions on ATAG scale, it is still a valid position none the less.

Ugh, sorry, I am rambling on and on but I am trying to word this carefully so as not to give a false impression of what I am really saying, I love CloD and I find that I am playing it more and more as the TF mods get better and better, still, I don't look at ROF/BoS and instantly compare it directly to CloD, I understand that ROF/BoS is going to deal with missions on a smaller scale and while that is a shame in some ways, it does not mean I can't make a enjoyable mission that is perhaps a bit more focused on a single part of a battle that eight to 12 players can enjoy a great deal.

I suppose that in the end, I have enough room on my hard drive for all my sims and I tend to look at them all individually, I don't play BoS and say "I wish this was more like CloD" because I already have CloD, I can play that if I want, I don't play CloD and go "this is bullshit, I can't use the whole cockpit like DCS?!" because that is silly, as I said, I look at them individually so I have a hard time choosing sides, this is made even more difficult because I simply don't care about the politics behind CloD's development, I was not following it's development so I was never really aware anyway.

Please note, I am not writing this in any emotional state, simply providing my perspective, I am not upset, I am not arguing with anyone as I have been VERY careful to make sure that I am not saying anyone here is wrong, just providing my take on the whole thing in one post in hopes that I am not seen as such a enemy as some see me as here, I fully agree that ROF has flaws, some of them are pretty big but at the end of the day, as far as I am personally concerned, I can work inside those flaws and get a very enjoyable simulation experience, the same will go for BoS and the same goes for every other sim I own.

Hopefully that provides some context to my other posts that perhaps will make them seem less negative (as I originally wished them to be).


Again, just to be super, super clear, I am agreeing with you and Bliss on much of your complaints, seriously, I am just saying why they don't bother me as much and how I work around them.

An interesting read. I wouldn't say Rise of Flight is my favorite sim (because it's not) but it certainly has value in the sense that WWI sims are a luxury nowadays. Any sim that brings something new and interesting to the table is a good one IMHO.

LuseKofte
Mar-30-2014, 15:05
@ Tvirdi :D

I simply say BOS is speaking to me, wether I play it online or not time will tell. To be honest I don't care much for clod online anymore. It has developed into a Counter Strike attitude where points are more important than objectives and realism.

So you and Bliss can have that for your selves. I hope it going to be different in BOS , but I do not think so. I am not going to fly CLOD offline , because in my opinion it is rubbish, I hope offline BOS will do better . I like BOS game engines and some planes in it. that is all

ATAG_Naz
Mar-30-2014, 15:22
I simply say BOS is speaking to me, wether I play it online or not time will tell. To be honest I don't care much for clod online anymore. It has developed into a Counter Strike attitude where points are more important than objectives and realism.

So you and Bliss can have that for your selves. I hope it going to be different in BOS , but I do not think so. I am not going to fly CLOD offline , because in my opinion it is rubbish, I hope offline BOS will do better . I like BOS game engines and some planes in it. that is all

That's a fair call mate, you gotta play what you enjoy, otherwise there's no point, it's all about the fun after all. :thumbsup:

Gotta say I've had some really fun ATAG sorties lately winging up with multiple other fighters to escort multiple Blenheims to attack mission objectives.... There ere often large groups of people flying mission based sorties now whilst others still go lone wolf looking for isolated fights....as the ATAG doctrine goes, everyone is free to log on and play the sort of mission they want on our server. Its just a matter of grouping up with people on TS; the mission based flights are happening a lot more often now and it's how I prefer to play. It's unfortunate if you aren't able to join up with people to do that for whatever reason, because it is there for you if you look. Also SoW gives that too.

I am expecting I will enjoy BoS as well (especially looking forward to trying Oculus Rift when retail version is released) , but perhaps more so as on offline sim. I don't like offline Cliffs either mate, but I might like it more if TF 5.0 is able to do something with the AI and Comms.

Play what you enjoy mate, no one can or should criticise anyone for that.
:salute:

LuseKofte
Mar-30-2014, 16:06
I am kind of in the middle of lack of time period . I had many fun hours in clod but right now I don't have time to waste on being vulched and other unwanted experiences not blamed on the server it selves.
I see my posting can be read as negative towards ATAG server itself, that was not my intention at all, my apology for that. I like thiose rare moments of dedicated simmers come together. I just got less tolerance of waste of time, I will get better time later and I probably see it from a different angle then

ATAG_Naz
Mar-30-2014, 16:11
I am kind of in the middle of lack of time period . I had many fun hours in clod but right now I don't have time to waste on being vulched and other unwanted experiences not blamed on the server it selves.
I see my posting can be read as negative towards ATAG server itself, that was not my intention at all, my apology for that. I like thiose rare moments of dedicated simmers come together. I just got less tolerance of waste of time, I will get better time later and I probably see it from a different angle then

I didn't read your post as negative mate...it's all good :thumbsup:

Shello
May-14-2014, 20:31
great representation of the Clod community https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26alXkivvac

ATAG_Septic
May-15-2014, 06:40
great representation of the Clod community https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26alXkivvac


That's a great vid Shello, thanks for the link.

Septic.

Chuck_Owl
May-15-2014, 17:25
great representation of the Clod community https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26alXkivvac

But why would you post that on the BoS forum, exactly?

LuseKofte
May-15-2014, 18:15
Because he want to turn us BOS fanboys :flying2: over to the enemy CLOD Simmers :snoopy:

1lokos
May-15-2014, 19:11
Dont bother "fanboys" war, do a "panoramic" flight to cool down: :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YWH-HI07URk

Good landing skill:thumbsup:.

Sokol1

ChiefRedCloud
May-15-2014, 20:08
Dont bother "fanboys" war, do a "panoramic" flight to cool down: :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YWH-HI07URk

Good landing skill:thumbsup:.

Sokol1

WOW! How, er, interesting ..... just a little ways to still go, huh?

ATAG_Freya
May-15-2014, 23:33
But why would you post that on the BoS forum, exactly?


Because he want to turn us BOS fanboys :flying2: over to the enemy CLOD Simmers :snoopy:

LOL. I'm sure it was posted here by mistake....


BUT -- I'm glad it WAS posted, this is one of my all time favorites now! :salute: Venom, GREAT VID!!

LuseKofte
May-16-2014, 06:46
Well I thought everybody knew both Chuck owl and me flew more CLOD than BOS , and would take it as the joke it was

ATAG_Snapper
May-16-2014, 08:37
Well I thought everybody knew both Chuck owl and me flew more CLOD than BOS , and would take it as the joke it was


Humour? In THIS section? No way!!!! Can't be done!!! whaa


(To the rest of this section's community: the above was a joke, too. The Earthling species feed on irony. It's a staple in their diets. Keep 'em guessing, I say. :thumbsup: )

Chuck_Owl
May-16-2014, 14:09
Well I thought everybody knew both Chuck owl and me flew more CLOD than BOS , and would take it as the joke it was

I fly almost everything... Literally. I enjoy anything I can get my hands on.

Il-2 1946, dcs, bms, fsx, x-plane 10, prepar3d, clod, bos, rof, war thunder (back in the days)...

I like flying.

LuseKofte
May-16-2014, 15:01
Me too, mate. I just been a marked man after so much defending of BOS, the worst part of it, I really don't know why I defend it. I fly little just now but my statistic is right now
CLOD - 60 %
BOS - 10 %
IL2 - 25 %
DCS - 5 %
I own almost everything published since 1996 but have only Huey, A-10 and P-51 in DCS . I haven't tried the huey since I use a Yoke it is kind of hard

MB_Avro_UK
Jul-23-2015, 14:12
This may not be the thread to post my question re BoS.

About a month ago, I purchased the DLC FW 190 and La 5 via PayPal. Neither are installed. Both are still shown as locked.

My library screen shows both aircraft installed on June 9th but both remain locked.

Who do I complain to? I going around in circles trying to remedy this.

Many thanks in advance:salute:

Mastiff
Jul-23-2015, 15:21
This may not be the thread to post my question re BoS.

About a month ago, I purchased the DLC FW 190 and La 5 via PayPal. Neither are installed. Both are still shown as locked.

My library screen shows both aircraft installed on June 9th but both remain locked.

Who do I complain to? I going around in circles trying to remedy this.

Many thanks in advance:salute:

18154 18155 18156

MB_Avro_UK
Jul-25-2015, 15:21
Many thanks Mastiff.

But I don't have the green symbol regarding the DCL for the FW 190 & La 5.

The only green symbol relates to the game purchase.

MB_Avro_UK
Jul-29-2015, 15:33
In essence, Steam have recognised my purchase. But the Game does not recognise my purchase.

Very frustrating. I will request a refund.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

4./JG26_Adler
Aug-03-2015, 15:33
In essence, Steam have recognised my purchase. But the Game does not recognise my purchase.

Very frustrating. I will request a refund.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

You still need to activate the purchases on your IL-2 account.

Don't you think that their forums (forum.il2sturmovik.com) would maybe be a better place to ask..?

MB_Avro_UK
Aug-09-2015, 05:21
But there is no option to activate the purchase on my il2 account.

The il2 sturmovik forum is hostile to any implied criticism. But I'll give it a go.

Thanks anyway.

Roland
Aug-09-2015, 11:41
Buying in steam but cannot activate is a problem that the forum can probably help with. It is a clunky system lik DCS modules but DCS does it better.

Asking a question not criticism but depends what and how to ask.

:)

1lokos
Aug-09-2015, 11:47
Log in your account - www.il2sturmovik.com, not in fórum - and open a Ticket to suport*,
attach a printscreen of you account showing that purchased STEAM planes is not available,
and maybe a proof of this purchase.

Ask in the forum about dont result in any practical help and risk in attrack "BDL" FLAK. :D

* They answer only in working days.

MB_Avro_UK
Aug-26-2015, 06:39
Thanks for your help.

I have sent another Ticket, this time requesting a refund with a screenshot of the 'greyed out' FW & La.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro