View Full Version : F4 Martlet
Recently I have been reading up on the P40 and it's history which was interesting but when I started reading and comparing the pilots notes for the P40 and F4 I was a little staggered to see the diving limit of the F4!
It's rated to 475knts, which when converted to MPH comes out at 546.62mph :stunned: that's Typhoon/Tempest/P47 territory!
Has anyone else seen any other ratings?
Hyperus
Sep-03-2017, 07:55
Oioioioioioi, I will definitly fly that thing ^^ The 109 F4 should have a limit of like 790, So as a Martlet you should go over that speed to escape.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Sep-03-2017, 07:58
Yes, the Martlet was a sturdily built little beast.
Also maneuvered well at high speeds like most of the 'cats'.
=AN=Lobo
Sep-03-2017, 08:00
F4 480 mph, P47 520 mph.
Yes, the Martlet was a sturdily built little beast.
Also maneuvered well at high speeds like most of the 'cats'.
Yeah, I was quite surprised how low it's wing loading is , I suppose it's because it looks so tubby!
F4 480 mph, P47 520 mph.
Are you confusing knots with mph here (navy fighter) Lobo as the pilots notes are in knots and say 475?
=AN=Lobo
Sep-03-2017, 09:45
Are you confusing knots with mph here (navy fighter) Lobo as the pilots notes are in knots and say 475?
Pilots notes are wrong, maybe? All I read said that F4 safe dive speed is around 480mph/770kmh.
Buuuuttt emergency dives? I don't know the limits. Some claim even 690mph in Spitfires.
Pilots notes are wrong, maybe? All I read said that F4 safe dive speed is around 480mph/770kmh.
Buuuuttt emergency dives? I don't know the limits. Some claim even 690mph in Spitfires.
Pilot notes are originals so highly unlikely, in every pilot notes I have there is a max airspeed quoted, this is usually lower than the airframe rating, for instance the Beaufighter Mk1 has 400mph (340knts) limit in notes yet in the document from Bristol to the air ministry on 9th June 39 states the airframe was satisfactory for a terminal dive speed of 450mph, so there is a margin of safety built into the notes, in the Beaufighters case due to having to trim out of a high speed dive.
A bit more reading has noted a 30lbft wing loading and 6.14 power loading for the F4 which surprised me, a loaded weight of 7 - 7500lb and a reasonably consistent roll rate across a wide speed range, I obviously neglected to pay much attention to this stumpy little warhorse
This is an interesting excerpt - note the -4 is heavier with 6 guns and more armour/equipment than the earlier models.
GRUMMAN F4F-4 vs. CURTISS P-40F
The Report: U. S. NAVAL AIR STATION, ANACOSTIA D. C., 19 September 1942.
The tests were performed between 21 June 1942 and 19 August 1942 and military power was used.
6. The F4F-4 was compared to the P-40F to determine relative climb, speed and turning ability. At the continuous engine ratings the F4F-4 is superior in climb, the superiority increases with altitude, and is inferior in level speed below 20,000 feet. At the maximum ratings the P-40F is superior in climb below 15,000 feet and in level speed below about 22,000 feet. At higher altitudes the F4F-4 is superior in all respects. It is superior in turning ability at all altitudes, and in vision and general handling qualities.
I expected the P40 to basically outperform the F4, off to amazon for some historical texts I recon.
69th_Zeb
Sep-03-2017, 11:31
"At the maximum ratings the P-40F is superior in climb below 15,000 feet and in level speed below about 22,000 feet."
Guess you could see why the AVG did so well against Japan as a low altitude energy fighter. I read about one instructor using a P-40 in low altitude against young Mustang pilots to teach them perspective on tactics. The F-4 weight/wingloading seems like a kite compared to the heavier P-40. Would be interesting to see both used together in team tactics.
♣_Spiritus_♣
Sep-03-2017, 11:50
From the original Grumman F4F-3 Pilot handbook, pg. 61:
(c) Diving:
The theoretical terminal velocity of the airplane is approximately 475 KNOTS indicated air speed. It is not expected that this speed will be reached in service dives. Propeller at 45 degree pitch.
The maximum allowable engine speed in dives is 3050 RPM.
ATAG_Lewis
Sep-03-2017, 11:57
So are we going to see the F4 used as BnZer?...Does it keep its speed?...Can it outclimb the 109?
To me it needs to be compared to its main enemy rival and not the P40...
Be sweet to see an allied aircraft that competes with the 109 at its own game...Very interesting!
I was 5 years old when my dad helped me build my first warbird kit...My nan and grandad bought it for my birthday....It was a large scale Wildcat that I painted silver with the old school stars...The canopy slid back and you could remove the pilot...I learned a lot...Those memories stay for life...My nan and grandad both gone now....
...Lew...
69th_Zeb
Sep-03-2017, 12:38
Hey now, don't go bursting my tactic building bubbles! ;)
I'm only imagining if we had both available and were combining the best of each for team tactics. We kind of do that with Hurris/Spits and G50/109s.
Continuing our tradition of tin hat revelry....
At high altitude, even a skydiver can break the speed of sound. It was probably impractical for their fighters to reach those levels of space-time warping speeds by first reaching a blood-boiling altitide.
So are we going to see the F4 used as BnZer?...Does it keep its speed?...Can it outclimb the 109?
To me it needs to be compared to its main enemy rival and not the P40...
Be sweet to see an allied aircraft that competes with the 109 at its own game...Very interesting!
I was 5 years old when my dad helped me build my first warbird kit...My nan and grandad bought it for my birthday....It was a large scale Wildcat that I painted silver with the old school stars...The canopy slid back and you could remove the pilot...I learned a lot...Those memories stay for life...My nan and grandad both gone now....
...Lew...
Climb is not comparable to the 109 so your going to have to play the tactics game and bounce, having said that it has a lower wing loading than the 109 and power loading is not too far behind the E so it should be reasonably nimble, roll rate is ok especially at higher speeds where 109's and Brit planes freeze up!
from what I have read about it against the zero it was a purely boom n zoom affair, even a Spit could not compete with the zero in a horizontal plane until the speed got really high, so dogfighting one in an F4 was suicide, having said that all the reports I have browsed claim it had good manoeuvrability, but common sense suggests zoom in make a pass bug out!
https://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/6021-grumman-f4f-3-4-wildcat-performance/ some stats to browse.
The F4 had good zoom climb but poor sustained climb so just like the hurricane your going to have to box clever as they say!
From the original Grumman F4F-3 Pilot handbook, pg. 61:
(c) Diving:
The theoretical terminal velocity of the airplane is approximately 475 KNOTS indicated air speed. It is not expected that this speed will be reached in service dives. Propeller at 45 degree pitch.
The maximum allowable engine speed in dives is 3050 RPM.
475knts = 546mph, that surprised the hell out of me, the P40 is rated to what 480mph?
IIJG27Rich
Sep-04-2017, 02:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edc1J7HJCg8 Some nice visuals :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEbFCgCVnHw&t=155s
♣_Spiritus_♣
Sep-04-2017, 09:10
That is a great looking plane, I'd love to see it in person.
Just an FYI, that is an FM-1/2 from General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division, which do have significant differences from the Grumman variants, most notably the tail section, exhaust, and engine type.
:thumbsup:
IIJG27Rich
Sep-04-2017, 09:41
It will be a whole new experience for sure with these new aeroplanes:thumbsup:
ATAG_Ribbs
Sep-04-2017, 11:35
Did u catch the bird strike @410 in the second video.
I can't wait to see this plane in the game engine.. flying around. Any chance we will get to hear some 50 cal sounds soon?
javelina
Sep-04-2017, 13:44
Can't wait to fly this little Devil. :thumbsup:
IIJG27Rich
Sep-05-2017, 00:22
I really love the thumping pounding sound of that engine :)
I really love the thumping pounding sound of that engine :)
:goofy radials always sound like a lawnmower race to me!
IIJG27Rich
Sep-05-2017, 14:54
:goofy radials always sound like a lawnmower race to me!
Maybe it's the base effect of all the wax in my ears eh? :)
7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER
Sep-05-2017, 17:07
:goofy radials always sound like a lawnmower race to me!
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Oersted
Sep-09-2017, 17:28
Very solid plane... - They didn't call the company "The Grumman Iron Works" for nothing.
Broodwich
Sep-16-2017, 22:29
So are we going to see the F4 used as BnZer?
if you want to be successful, you should probably do that in every plane :P
I, for one, am super stoked to see both the P40 and F4F make an entrance. I'm looking forward to seeing what TF do with .50s
if you want to be successful, you should probably do that in every plane :P
I, for one, am super stoked to see both the P40 and F4F make an entrance. I'm looking forward to seeing what TF do with .50s
The F4f is going to be pitted against some difficult opposition, it's basically going to be a Hurricane who's wings don't fall off in a dive, so when your fighting the hoards of 109f4's which will dominate every mission your going to have to get creative in your tactics!
Basic design concept - Grumman Martlet
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RAF74_Buzzsaw
Sep-17-2017, 17:02
Actually the Martlet was a very good design... but was handicapped at the time by the limited choice of engines available.
The USN demanded all its aircraft be equipped with Radial engines... because they were more reliable and stood up better to combat damage... something which was critical to aircraft which had to fly over thousands of miles of ocean. The only choices at the time were the Wright Cyclone or the Pratt and Whitney R-1830... both of which were not worldbeaters in the horsepower generated. So the aircraft was a little underpowered.
The Martlet also had to have very long range... requiring a lot of fuel tankage... plus of course, as is the case with all carrier types, they had to be built more heavily to withstand deck landings.
Which made it heavier.
Despite all that the designers were able to create an aircraft which was effective in combat... the proof is in the fact it was able to serve right through to the end of the war.
In TF 5.0 it will be a little slow, and not a great climber, but it will out-turn the German types and be better both in maximum dive speed and the ability to maneuver at high speeds.
It has to be used selectively and flown with a knowledge of its limitations.
9./JG52 Kettarian_Fox
Sep-17-2017, 17:22
Actually the Martlet was a very good design... but was handicapped at the time by the limited choice of engines available.
The USN demanded all its aircraft be equipped with Radial engines... because they were more reliable and stood up better to combat damage... something which was critical to aircraft which had to fly over thousands of miles of ocean. The only choices at the time were the Wright Cyclone or the Pratt and Whitney R-1830... both of which were not worldbeaters in the horsepower generated. So the aircraft was a little underpowered.
The Martlet also had to have very long range... requiring a lot of fuel tankage... plus of course, as is the case with all carrier types, they had to be built more heavily to withstand deck landings.
Which made it heavier.
Despite all that the designers were able to create an aircraft which was effective in combat... the proof is in the fact it was able to serve right through to the end of the war.
In TF 5.0 it will be a little slow, and not a great climber, but it will out-turn the German types and be better both in maximum dive speed and the ability to maneuver at high speeds.
It has to be used selectively and flown with a knowledge of its limitations.
Can I have two of those, please? :P
FightingSteel1
Sep-17-2017, 17:45
It has to be used selectively and flown with a knowledge of its limitations.
Sentence sums up just about every design in WWII, especially early.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Sep-17-2017, 19:35
Martlet will also carry bombs... so can be used for ground pounding... its durability will serve it well in flak heavy environments.
Originally carried a 100 lber on each wing... but doing research to determine if the more common British 250 lber was carried in the Desert as well.
And of course, eventually... (not likely TF 5.0) it will have an aircraft carrier to take off from. :recon:
DOWNEAST
Sep-17-2017, 20:57
Sentence sums up just about every design in WWII, especially early.
Maybe some day the Corsair II, 400 plus MPH. Same engine as P47, P&W R2800.:woohoo:
HurricaneHarvest
Sep-18-2017, 04:53
French trainer, wasn't it ?? .. :-P
.
Martlet will also carry bombs... so can be used for ground pounding... its durability will serve it well in flak heavy environments.
Originally carried a 100 lber on each wing... but doing research to determine if the more common British 250 lber was carried in the Desert as well.
And of course, eventually... (not likely TF 5.0) it will have an aircraft carrier to take off from. :recon:
:stunned: Huh what,
FightingSteel1
Sep-18-2017, 12:20
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5b/fb/fb/5bfbfb33db09d9c7c803410b4a2b22cd--mediterranean-sea-the-deck.jpg
ATAG_Ribbs
Sep-19-2017, 09:09
Martlet will also carry bombs... so can be used for ground pounding... its durability will serve it well in flak heavy environments.
Originally carried a 100 lber on each wing... but doing research to determine if the more common British 250 lber was carried in the Desert as well.
And of course, eventually... (not likely TF 5.0) it will have an aircraft carrier to take off from. :recon:
What about the P40? Did it have bomb carrying capabilities in this time frame?
Thanks for the info Buzz. So excited about the Martlet!
major_setback
Sep-19-2017, 16:25
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The story of HMS Audacity which flew Martlets:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3238607/re-while-were-waiting-for-bob-sow-wwii-bbc-raf-broadcasts#Post3238607
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Sep-19-2017, 17:17
Although most likely the first carrier based type we'll get will be this.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/cf5a9f63454da8f8543a5ffe564d29ea/tumblr_inline_np4g7bFdE91t90ue7_1280.jpg
I can only press like once - id like to press it more for the above!
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