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Bart_NL
Oct-21-2017, 08:22
Thanks Karaya.


https://youtu.be/AKusyEflsps

Hyperus
Oct-21-2017, 09:24
HALLELUJA, But wait? Did the 8mm Machinegunsound change? I remember it to be a bit sharper.

Edit: And why are the canons so silent??

IIJG27Rich
Oct-21-2017, 09:41
Awesome sim..I notice the server in down for 4.49 in that good news?

farley
Oct-21-2017, 09:44
Wow..... what can i say? Gotta love that!

The countryside looks fantastic. The distant haze is impressive. And the rolling hills.... oh my... will be a joy to fly over.

And that guy, Karaya i think his name is, he flies pretty well for a newbie eh:D:thumbsup::salute:

Thanks for making and sharing the video.

Very exciting times ahead:)

69th_Zeb
Oct-21-2017, 09:48
I think the new terrain looks great in this video. Nice.

I definitely noticed some hesitancy to hit the Beaufighter head on. haha. Can't wait.

=FI=Murph
Oct-21-2017, 09:50
To me, one of the most interesting things was seeing the colors grey out when he was pulling a lot of Gs.

diziet
Oct-21-2017, 10:04
Wow! Looks amazing! Looks like there has been some work on ground impacts? At the moment a plane hitting the ground just explodes but I like the way in this vid that the wreckage skips and spins along the ground!

Woop
Oct-21-2017, 10:05
Not sure I like the Spitfire gun sounds. Sounds much like cannons instead of 8 machine guns.

1lokos
Oct-21-2017, 10:16
Landscape looks terrific :thumbsup: but this new "War Thunder" fire effect... :-P

DrFatalChunk
Oct-21-2017, 11:23
.

♣_Spiritus_♣
Oct-21-2017, 11:40
HALLELUJA, But wait? Did the 8mm Machinegunsound change? I remember it to be a bit sharper.

Edit: And why are the canons so silent??

Watch the first seven seconds again.

Kendy for the State
Oct-21-2017, 11:43
Love the tunnel-vision blackout at 7:33... Seems more realistic than the current crosshatching.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 11:52
First off, 2 burning spitfires and a hurri, sell the house, go straight to the casino and put everything on green Zero sir :)
:)

Jokes aside, saw comment in the vid that this is toned down now (was bug), understandable for sure.
It really really looks bloody amazing TFS!!!!
Love the effects, the greys on G's new fire and hit effects.

Looks simply marvelous, you have outdone yourselves!!
:salute:

vranac
Oct-21-2017, 13:18
The second Spit was flamed from dead six. How is that possible?

Can someone from TFS specify what was actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

I have to say this looks like balancing.

And Hurricane wings are still falling off. That's not realistic at all, I was hoping that TFS would fix that, same as on the 109. That would be a huge problem in 5.0 if TFS couldn't find some solution to that. I understand that is a very complicated problem.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 13:24
The second Spit was flamed from dead six. How is that possible?

Can someone from TFS specify what was actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

I have to say this looks like balancing.

And Hurricane wings are still falling off. That's not realistic at all, I was hoping that TFS would fix that, same as on the 109. That would be a huge problem in 5.0 if TFS couldn't find some solution to that. I understand that is a very complicated problem.

If you read the comment in the youtube video by Karaya re fires, before throwing your toys out the cot, maybe you will be less quick to call balancing ;)

♣_Spiritus_♣
Oct-21-2017, 13:43
The second Spit was flamed from dead six. How is that possible?

Can someone from TFS specify what was actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

I have to say this looks like balancing.

And Hurricane wings are still falling off. That's not realistic at all, I was hoping that TFS would fix that, same as on the 109. That would be a huge problem in 5.0 if TFS couldn't find some solution to that. I understand that is a very complicated problem.

@2:03 the fuel tank area is dead center in his sight and he does a short burst, easily could have pierced it there. The dead six shots aren't really dead six, there is a lot of pitch variance which exposed the fuel tank location when the 109 was above him. There is a lot of hot lead being thrown his way and all it takes is one.

As for the Hurricane, can you explain what you are saying about not realistic at all, should they not come off ever or are you saying it happens too much?

In this video the wing root area take 2 or 3 HE rounds from his cannon in somewhat of a high G turn, if the main wing spars were damaged from his rounds coupled with high G load the wing can snap off like it did.

vranac
Oct-21-2017, 13:54
@2:03 the fuel tank area is dead center in his sight and he does a short burst, easily could have pierced it there. The dead six shots aren't really dead six, there is a lot of pitch variance which exposed the fuel tank location when the 109 was above him. There is a lot of hot lead being thrown his way and all it takes is one.

As for the Hurricane, can you explain what you are saying about not realistic at all, should they not come off ever or are you saying it happens too much?

In this video the wing root area take 2 or 3 HE rounds from his cannon in somewhat of a high G turn, if the main wing spars were damaged from his rounds coupled with high G load the wing can snap off like it did.

Look @ 2:17 when it's burned. That's ridicelous.

A wing of a Hurri or a 109 is falling off from one round. Sorry Spiritus, you should go and try to fight 109 vs 109 a bit.

Sonny
Oct-21-2017, 14:12
Hurri in turn+20mm=dead hurricane.
Its simple

Kendy for the State
Oct-21-2017, 14:13
Hopefully just coincidence... Allied AI aircraft fly straight and level while Axis fighter swoops in for the kill, but when roles are reversed Axis AI aircraft immediately take evasive action as soon as Allied fighter flies overhead. Also Allied planes pretty much fly steadily while being shot at, while Axis planes dodge, twist, and turn to evade.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 14:27
Look @ 2:17 when it's burned. That's ridicelous.

Spewing oil/coolent/fuel already?

Let me think? ahh yes the std answer is, Just don't get hit! If you do, you have done it wrong. :)

The Luftwaffe have swallowed that pill for over 3 years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n__NT0DiNBs

Ask for directions to the <5 sec fire PK club, arguably should halve that for the Spit, seeing as though you are sitting 'behind the flame thrower'.

vranac
Oct-21-2017, 15:07
Spewing oil/coolent/fuel already?

Let me think? ahh yes the std answer is, Just don't get hit! If you do, you have done it wrong. :)

The Luftwaffe have swallowed that pill for over 3 years.
Ask for directions to the <5 sec fire PK club, arguably should halve that for the Spit, seeing as though you are sitting 'behind the flame thrower'.

That is you crying all the time Vlerkies :)
I'm flying a Me109 on ATAG almost exclusively in a last few years. Everyone who is flying regularly knows that.

The problem that you're complaining off is due to some pilots using non-historical load-outs with 50% or even 70% of De Wilde.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 15:22
That is you crying all the time Vlerkies :)
I'm flying a Me109 on ATAG almost exclusively in a last few years. Everyone who is flying regularly knows that.

The problem that you're complaining off is due to some pilots using non-historical load-outs with 50% or even 70% of De Wilde.
I'll keep 'crying' pal, be damn sure of that, if there is cause and it is constructive, whether you like it or not.
2 spitfires burning in a video and the world ends :D

ATAG_Flare
Oct-21-2017, 15:42
Ask for directions to the <5 sec fire PK club, arguably should halve that for the Spit, seeing as though you are sitting 'behind the flame thrower'.

The Spit had a metal bulkhead between the fuel tank and the pilot.

The 109 pilot literally sat on top of the fuel.

I would rather be a Spit pilot with a fuel fire than a 109 pilot with a fuel fire.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 16:09
The Spit had a metal bulkhead between the fuel tank and the pilot.

The 109 pilot literally sat on top of the fuel.

I would rather be a Spit pilot with a fuel fire than a 109 pilot with a fuel fire.

No arguments about where the tanks were, thats for sure Flare :salute:
Some more of my 'crying' from years ago.
https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10051

Ignition of 'the' fuel tank behind/upfront/below a pilot in a small aircraft will pretty much have the same result almost instantaneously. While behind would be better, sitting your ass on one is not, but having it up front in your face and going tits up would be of concern. But it seems only one has had enough octane to even burn of late.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 16:24
and anyway, not to derail the great work, the thread, and video posted above in #1

I think it all looks awesome, and whether or not things burn or don't is neither here nor there as,if its the same, fine, it is what we have had for years already in that respect since 4.3
I think the graphical improvements and the Beaufighter are epic
Thank you TFS.

:salute:

bacana.luke
Oct-21-2017, 18:34
Great, now spits fuel tanks are hit from six. Wich was the bug solved by TFS to get this amazing feature?

rel4y
Oct-21-2017, 19:14
The fuel tank ingame was coded as steel instead of aluminium.

Vlerkies
Oct-21-2017, 19:23
Great, now spits fuel tanks are hit from six. Wich was the bug solved by TFS to get this amazing feature?

Maybe a more accurate line is


Great, now spits fuel tanks are actually modeled and considered in the damage model

Just thinking out loud.

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-21-2017, 19:30
Just thinking out loud.

I thought something along those lines myself.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-21-2017, 21:20
The fuel tank ingame was coded as steel instead of aluminium.

No. Fuel tanks were and remain aluminum.

Ecosta
Oct-21-2017, 21:42
Landscape looks terrific :thumbsup: but this new "War Thunder" fire effect... :-P

I gree!

back to effect fire before...
It looks like a comet-propelled airplane.
See several videos real gunsight ... it's very unreal

Ecosta

Salmo
Oct-21-2017, 22:01
HALLELUJA, But wait? Did the 8mm Machinegunsound change? I remember it to be a bit sharper.

Edit: And why are the canons so silent??

Still bug fixing some unexpected issues.

Hyperus
Oct-21-2017, 22:15
I gree!

back to effect fire before...
It looks like a comet-propelled airplane.
See several videos real gunsight ... it's very unreal

Ecosta

I prefer this new fire, taking gunsights for fire effects wouldnt work as they would be terribly overlighted by the fire.

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 00:46
In defense of TF, I now don my tin hat gentlemen....

In a King Air 200 with an engine fire, you have 2 minutes to land before your wing dynamically disassembles itself, depending on how you write your emergency procedures. ;) That's also not considering a 20mm canon shell through the forward spar.

Fuel isn't the only thing that catches fire. I've burned tested butyrate dope on fabric and it's like moth wings in a fire (thinking of the hurricane here or the 109's rudder). My coworker worked in a rag shop where his boss was sanding a wing, and within seconds, static electricity made everything go poof -leaving only the frame.

And yeh, they didn't use steel on those tanks. Even if they did, you could easily punch through them with a screwdriver...or the thing never would of made it to theatre with that kind of weight.

By the way, I love seeing the 109's rudder burn with incendiaries....just gives me that warm feeling in the gut you guys were really thinking through stuff. There's always funky stuff, like the delay between the separation of the wing and the physics engine kicking in a second late to tell the plane to rotate (might be my laggy PC).

Anyways, it's all good. We can all definitely say there's some serious continuous improvement.

1lokos
Oct-22-2017, 01:45
Some things in CloD don't need be changed, just rescue the originals and tweak:

https://youtu.be/1LMftuei6Fw?t=25
Compare:
https://youtu.be/msb8OdvBBjU?t=41

Same for fuel/water leaks, originally they resemble much what is seem there:

https://youtu.be/msb8OdvBBjU?t=93

Hyperus
Oct-22-2017, 04:42
In defense of TF, I now don my tin hat gentlemen....

In a King Air 200 with an engine fire, you have 2 minutes to land before your wing dynamically disassembles itself, depending on how you write your emergency procedures. ;) That's also not considering a 20mm canon shell through the forward spar.

Fuel isn't the only thing that catches fire. I've burned tested butyrate dope on fabric and it's like moth wings in a fire (thinking of the hurricane here or the 109's rudder). My coworker worked in a rag shop where his boss was sanding a wing, and within seconds, static electricity made everything go poof -leaving only the frame.

And yeh, they didn't use steel on those tanks. Even if they did, you could easily punch through them with a screwdriver...or the thing never would of made it to theatre with that kind of weight.

By the way, I love seeing the 109's rudder burn with incendiaries....just gives me that warm feeling in the gut you guys were really thinking through stuff. There's always funky stuff, like the delay between the separation of the wing and the physics engine kicking in a second late to tell the plane to rotate (might be my laggy PC).

Anyways, it's all good. We can all definitely say there's some serious continuous improvement.

Interesting, my only question would be if fabric even triggers the incendiaries :/

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-22-2017, 04:51
A couple comments for those Spit drivers who are running around panicking or 109 drivers who generally like to moan about their badly abused life as a Blue side pilot... :sad!:

1) Karaya's video was created with the Beta 1 version.... in which later model Spits and Hurri Rotols do not have the curved, over the tank 3mm laminated aluminum 'armour' plates which will be in the final version.

2) The 109's in Beta 1 also do not have the rear fuselage 10mm laminated aluminum armour plate which protects its fuel tank. This will also be in the final version.

3) Both of these laminated aluminum plates were not particularly effective in protecting against armour piercing rounds, but what they were effective against were incendiary rounds... the incendiary would explode on contact with the plate instead of inside the tank.

4) The 10mm 109 plate was obviously more effective than the 3mm Hurri/Spit plates... but the 109 plate also served to protect the pilot... as there was no rear seat steel armour in the 109's as there was in the Spits/Hurris.

5) We are hoping to add the headrest armour for the 109E-4/E-4N, but cannot guarantee this... we will only offer it if it can be an option... as we know some players will not want it if their rear view will be badly affected.

Thanks :salute:

vranac
Oct-22-2017, 05:25
Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

Gromit
Oct-22-2017, 06:00
Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

Vranac this is a game, the damage model treats all structures like a biscuit, if you damage it enough it snaps off, the Tiger moth is a good example, the actual aircraft is a spaceframe of tubes covered in doped fabric, in game you can shoot the wings off like a piece of plasterboard, whereas in reality you may damage enough tubes and the wing would fold up like an old rotary washing line!

The Hurricane wing has a massive twin tubular spar with fillet plates between as stiffeners at the fuselage and multiple tubes providing the structure of the outer wing, so the cannon shell would have to penetrate the wing skin, pass through the structural frame and then explode on the spar or cut enough tubes to cause structural failure, this is extremely unlikely as early fuses detonated on impact so the only shells that could make it that far would be ap ones, and they are not going to fail a spar structure like a Hurricane uses without multiple hits on tubes!

So how are you going to solve the problem? it's impractical to model multiple tubes and then have to create an algorithm to calculate what load would then fail the wing, so we have to accept the damage model will be a compromise simulating this damage, basically if you have suffered enough hits to cause the wing to fail in game, then we can realistically surmise the aircraft would be un flyable in real life, so whilst I agree with you that wing failures should be extremely rare, it's a game, not reality and there has to be compromise.

ATAG_EvangelusE
Oct-22-2017, 06:59
Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

Vranac is a very experienced and respected member of the on- line community. If he has questions or concerns based on what is released during the BETA testing then I see absolutely no reason why they should not be expressed.

Mysticpuma
Oct-22-2017, 07:20
Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?




Important to note though that in Karaya's video as Mike states previously, there was no armour protection:

"Karaya's video was created with the Beta 1 version.... in which later model Spits and Hurri Rotols do not have the curved, over the tank 3mm laminated aluminum 'armour' plates which will be in the final version. These laminated aluminum plates were not particularly effective in protecting against armour piercing rounds, but what they were effective against were incendiary rounds... the incendiary would explode on contact with the plate instead of inside the tank"

So please note as pointed out in the video....that is Beta footage.

Cheers, MP

BOO
Oct-22-2017, 07:35
Vranac is a very experienced and respected member of the on- line community. If he has questions or concerns based on what is released during the BETA testing then I see absolutely no reason why they should not be expressed.

I'm sure he is. And I wholly support his right. As I do the right of other people to respond to them. Banding about accusations of "balancing" and calling things "ridiculous" though isn't something that is very helpful nor can it be said with the certainty it was after watching a single piece of Beta footage.

Buzz did answer his question, at least about the fuel tank, from what I can see.

As for the wings falling of, as Gromit said, its a game and there probably has to be some compromise with how the game is coded and what can be done with it at this stage given a) its complexity and b) the list of a million other things the community wants changing/altering/including/removing.

Finally, I see a lot of gnashing of teeth and sucking of gums about the fires. Ultimately whether I'm on fire or a holey as the pope with dead engine, the result of getting on the wrong end of Karaya is the same. The aircraft has been hit hard, the pixel pilot is probably dead or dying and neither are likely go be going much further whether they are on fire or not.

buster_dee
Oct-22-2017, 08:44
I remember the 1st time I saw Rise of Flight's damage modeling. It seemed like "ragdoll" for objects, suitable for wood-fabric construction, but a little much. I'm very much an eye-candy guy, but even I wondered how much resources that feature burned.

DerDa
Oct-22-2017, 09:19
Well from my point of view there is a real, very big, annoying bug:
I just can't shoot like Karaya and I just can't fly like him!

That makes it really hard to set any plane on fire (except mine ...)

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 09:58
My tin hat...before the cup of coffee. haha

As for spars folding up, it'd be interesting to see what some of the high scoring German aces in the eastern front wrote about. Any shot to a spar cap/beam in a high g-turn would be suspect, as spar failures happen in real life (fatigue is different, but whatever) without a single shot being fired. Warbird wing loading is also quite high with the thinnest wings imaginable...save the hurricane's fat wing. Steel tubes (Gromit, are the spars 4130?) versus 20mm from slightly above or below, I have reason to doubt in the hurricane anyway. The beaufighter book I have chronicles a lot about large portions of aircraft falling off of large 88s/Heinkels from canon fire. I find in-game that wing separation is quite rare anyways, unless you're watching Karaya's highly edited, sniper canon epics or you get snargled. I'd just leave it as-is. It's rare enough for me to see that I'm content.

A full fuel tank doesn't explode like an empty one does (or doesn't at all). Honestly they probably didn't explode, rather the leak would make it a steady fire after a loud woof. Like others said, no reason to make it overcomplicated. The fumes in the cockpits back then were probably enough to make any incendiary explode and the cockpits I've seen pictures of are full of active fuel leaks. One Mustang racer I know doesn't fly warbirds much anymore for the reason that warbirds are typically fire-prone without a shot being fired. "Probably" is more than good enough for me.

If people find it bothersome, they should surmise a wacky root cause..... like a fuel leak in the wing caused by the same knucklehead mechanic/engineer that worked on the squadron's planes which caused a stoichiometric of 14.7 in the wing bay around the ammunition. etc etc. Honestly in the heat of action, I'm not calculating stoichiometric or unfairness so much as trying to bail out and surviving. There's some pretty unfair crap in the real world that people would love to explain away with the use of a bullet.

Even though I wouldn't like it as a Blenheim fan, it would be neat to see the ordnance modelled for additional explosiveness!

9mm aluminum plate is hardly much. The wiiild rednecks at work are always testing ballistics with plates of different thicknesses, I'll have to pick their brain. I would have reason to think a smaller, lower-grained 7.62 might go through quite a ways (perpendicular at close range). Maybe that's something the Germans tested using the 303 to optimize the installation. BTW there's at least one person here who was shot at A LOT while flying...I have never heard him complain about the damage boxes..rather, he thinks this sim is the bee's knees.

Buzz/Gromit, I love the level of detail you guys are aware of. There always needs to be compromises and I think "most of us" are quite content with leaving it to you guys for under the IL2 hood stuff. If something bugs me, I can put on my tin hat and come up with an elaborate explanation (we do it anyway on ATAG Axis/Allies). I like being able to talk about it too though. It's all interesting to me, even if it rubs a little.

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-22-2017, 10:00
Interesting, my only question would be if fabric even triggers the incendiaries :/

That's a really interesting question.

I have no idea how stiff dopped fabric was. Probably a lot stonger than papier-mache(with an accent on the e)

The stuff its covering would obviously, the wooden strutts and whatnot .... my guess is that dopped fabric probably would as well... but... its a guess, I actually have no idea !

vranac
Oct-22-2017, 10:01
Important to note though that in Karaya's video as Mike states previously, there was no armour protection:

Cheers, MP

The same thing I did just a couple days ago from a different angle, from above, not recorded unfortunately.
I expected a reply from someone that is versed in DM coding. While I'm not a coding expert, I have some experience with it and I think I have some basic knowledge how DM is working.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuCFagC4_YA


SM edits: Corrected an earlier mistake. The addition of missing oil and water systems have been getting confused with the corrections of the fuel system. The spitfire fuel tank collision box is there, the protection was not, but has now been added as mentioned before.

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-22-2017, 10:11
If something bugs me, I can put on my tin hat and come up with an elaborate explanation (we do it anyway on ATAG Axis/Allies). I like being able to talk about it too though. It's all interesting to me, even if it rubs a little.

Totally agree !

I think its important to appreciate the MASSIVE improvements already made, and currently being finalised rather than expect a game (or any sim) to fully replicate reality.

That's just wishfull thinking.

Best we can hope for is to get as close possible within the limitations that exist

1: in the capabilities of the available game engine
2: in the technology available at any given time that a reasonable number of people can actually afford

I think we are damn close already.....

I remain hugely impressed, and similarly greatful.

I also (on the most part) really like the discussion, some interesting questions raised here no doubt.

:salute:

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 10:19
@Highseas Anything will go through fabric, even the pilot's keys inside their pocket, when they try to crawl into the cockpit of a stearman (true story ha). Kids love to squeeze the wingtips and damage them. If the canon hit a tube inside the surface covered in fabric, then you'd be screwed.

@Varanac, I love the maneuver between the trees. Nice.

If you really want to get nerdy about aircraft tube structures.......
31961

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-22-2017, 10:27
@Highseas Anything will go through fabric, even the pilot's keys inside their pocket, when they try to crawl into the cockpit of a stearman (true story ha).

I wasnt under the impression that dopped fabric could stop a bullet ! That would sure save the police a lot of money on bullet proof vests if it could though !

It was more about whether there is enough of a "clunk" against the stiffened dopped fabric to cause an incendry round to ignite, which was the question raised.

I have no idea.

:salute:

EDIT: (or whether if it did it could ignite anything on its jouney to the other skin of fabric at exit.)

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 10:41
It's recorded in the hyer mythology of ww2 epics that canons did indeed go through fabric, but it's hard to say without testing it!

I guess tales abound on the internet. :-)

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31966&d=1508683427

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-22-2017, 10:48
It's recorded in the hyer mythology of ww2 epics that canons did indeed go through fabric, but it's hard to say without testing it!

I guess tales abound on the internet. :-)

Well that does go some way to explaining why they had to invent Kevlar I guess.

I'd better go edit wikipedia :D

Hyperus
Oct-22-2017, 11:02
We would need someone owning a .303 Rifle, a Fabric expert that knows how the stuff was stiffened back in the day and a Museum bein so friendly to hand over the incendiaries XD

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-22-2017, 11:06
We would need someone owning a .303 Rifle, a Fabric expert that knows how the stuff was stiffened back in the day and a Museum bein so friendly to hand over the incendiaries XD

Too late !

I edited wikipedia and now incendry rounds as well as other projectiles can go through fabric again.

:)

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 11:10
Fabric planes are great. I worked on one that was shot at by a dumb redneck with a .200-ish round. Missed the fuel tank by six inches. Easy ring patch repair (bottom and top of wing haha).

I was doing an Annual/CofA on a Huey and found bird shot (#3) in the driveshaft compartment (you have to climb on the roof to get to it). I confirmed with one of my local firearms experts that it was legit. Either my boss was doing a positive G roll over a chem-trail-phobic redneck's house or the shot bounced off the main rotor and fell into the driveshaft area. Likely the latter.

:recon:


Edit* Highseas I found your entry. haha
"I could smell powder smoke, hot and strong, but it didn't make me feel tough this time. It was from the cannon shells and incendiary bullets that had hit my machine...Bullets were going between my legs, and I remember seeing a bright flash of an incendiary bullet going past my leg into the gas tank...Then a little red tongue licked out inquiringly from under the gas tank in front of my feet and became a hot little bonfire in one corner of the cockpit."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_ammunition

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 11:49
Hyperus, the only thing I don't have access to is the incendiary rounds, which aren't legal here to fire without a permit. I've been itching to fabricate a 109 rudder shot up by a real .303 from scratch (similar to the one displayed at that RAF pub). Maybe I can make several to fund the rabbit trail. haha

I'd have to build it from sheetmetal frames, cotton fabric and nitrate dope, which would be equal to allied stuff...not sure about what the Germans used.
http://www.plans.aero/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=297

:salute:

rel4y
Oct-22-2017, 11:53
No. Fuel tanks were and remain aluminum.

Thanks for setting the joke straight. Maybe I should have written Stalinium or Kruppsteel.



"Karaya's video was created with the Beta 1 version.... in which later model Spits and Hurri Rotols do not have the curved, over the tank 3mm laminated aluminum 'armour' plates which will be in the final version. These laminated aluminum plates were not particularly effective in protecting against armour piercing rounds, but what they were effective against were incendiary rounds... the incendiary would explode on contact with the plate instead of inside the tank"


Only DeWilde will trigger on impact of a 3mm Al plate and give a nice bright flash. PmK and Buckingham incendiary will penetrate, given angle and distance allow for it. Armour penetration for PmK incendiary ammo is 6,5 mm (90°), 5 mm (60°) at 100m for a hardened steel plate (150 kg/mm^2).

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-22-2017, 11:57
Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

There is nothing wrong with the Spit fuel tank.

The problem was an error created by the original developers... they had mistakenly designated the fuel tank as a 'hidden' object.... and hidden objects in CoD cannot take damage.

Re. the 109 and Hurricane wings... both have been strengthened.

But as mentioned, all these aircraft types have G Limits... add a few cannon shells to G effects and you have a wing coming off.

Finally, here is the bottom line:

Aircraft from the 1940's are more lightly built than most cars... think about what happens when you aim an M-60 Machinegun armed with AP and Incendiary 7.62mm at a car and open fire.

WWII aircraft were not designed to survive sustained hits from 20mm weapons. So called 'Armour' only existed to mitigate damage to fuel tanks and human occupants... the majority of the aircraft frame had no protection.

Catseye
Oct-22-2017, 13:06
To me, one of the most interesting things was seeing the colors grey out when he was pulling a lot of Gs.

Yes, only addition would be the beginning of myopia. The fuzzing out of the outer edges and moving inwards should more G's be applied. All in all showing great promise.

69th_Zeb
Oct-22-2017, 13:17
This image is pretty interesting. Looks like a canon round hitting the elevator spar after it had cleanly gone through the rudder. You can see shrapnel on the rudder/vertical stab from the explosion.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31969&d=1508692427

31969

Kling
Oct-22-2017, 13:17
Yes, only addition would be the beginning of myopia. The fuzzing out of the outer edges and moving inwards should more G's be applied. All in all showing great promise.

Yes its all in there.. first grey out and then dark edges moving in until final blackout.:thumbsup:

7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER
Oct-22-2017, 15:03
Look @ 2:17 when it's burned. That's ridicelous.

A wing of a Hurri or a 109 is falling off from one round. Sorry Spiritus, you should go and try to fight 109 vs 109 a bit.



Just checked your time. Burst into flames at 50M. Using the Revi sight you can calculate distance and he is so close any impacts from wing weapons hit the side of the aircraft. He also just shot at the top where you can see the fuel tank.

ATAG_Scones
Oct-22-2017, 15:20
The AweSim Cliffs of Dover!

Love the terrain; and the tunnel vision blackout effect sure beats the crosshatching one.

7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER
Oct-22-2017, 15:23
There is nothing wrong with the Spit fuel tank.

The problem was an error created by the original developers... they had mistakenly designated the fuel tank as a 'hidden' object.... and hidden objects in CoD cannot take damage.

Re. the 109 and Hurricane wings... both have been strengthened.

But as mentioned, all these aircraft types have G Limits... add a few cannon shells to G effects and you have a wing coming off.

Finally, here is the bottom line:

Aircraft from the 1940's are more lightly built than most cars... think about what happens when you aim an M-60 Machinegun armed with AP and Incendiary 7.62mm at a car and open fire.

WWII aircraft were not designed to survive sustained hits from 20mm weapons. So called 'Armour' only existed to mitigate damage to fuel tanks and human occupants... the majority of the aircraft frame had no protection.


I've seen bullets embedded into 1930's boilers in the North. I've also seen hunting rounds pierce 1/2" 1930's plate steel. Probably .306 rounds but a fair few old .303s kick around the NWT. Getting hard to find one unsporterized. Anyway, civilian bullets tear right through cars and steel plate. Not sure why people think armour plate is impervious. Especially aluminium armour.

I think the Sherman outside my old armoury on Beaty St has machine gun scars but it doesn't fly.

Gromit
Oct-23-2017, 09:38
This image is pretty interesting. Looks like a canon round hitting the elevator spar after it had cleanly gone through the rudder. You can see shrapnel on the rudder/vertical stab from the explosion.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31969&d=1508692427

31969

That's a flak hit, you can see the round detonated from below next to the fuselage and the burst has gone up and through the stabiliser and rudder.

much bigger than a 20mm too! :goofy

Catseye
Oct-23-2017, 11:42
Yes its all in there.. first grey out and then dark edges moving in until final blackout.:thumbsup:

Ah, good to know Kling.

ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Oct-24-2017, 01:47
Awe, why shy away from the old 8x .303 gun sounds? That was a really neat sound effect :(

Looks good though! Great to see AI flying and rear gunner working for 4.5

7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER
Oct-24-2017, 14:00
Do we have any recordings of what it was actually like? I always thought it anemic myself. Just shooting one bullet is loud. I imagine 8 .303 brownings going off to sound like tearing linen or a sail as opposed to ripping a shirt to use an analogy we all know.

I love the new Luftwaffe sounds. I do like the new British sound too but understand why people will miss the old one.

What reference was used to change the sounds? Is it something we can listen to to compare?



For the strenghtening of Hurricane wings. Countzero was messing with the original files and discovered the seam is where the weakness is. Is this what you guys found as well? I do like flying the Hurricane but as a pretty solid 109 pilot even I think Hurricane wings pop off too easy. I have some footage of one shell in the sweet spot from last week popping a wing off. Is it useful to post it?

IIJG27Rich
Oct-24-2017, 14:14
That's a flak hit, you can see the round detonated from below next to the fuselage and the burst has gone up and through the stabiliser and rudder.

much bigger than a 20mm too! :goofy

Surprised it all held together rather well

Gromit
Oct-24-2017, 14:17
Surprised it all held together rather well

It's quite surprising how much damage you can limp home with :stunned:

32009

BOO
Oct-24-2017, 14:32
It's quite surprising how much damage you can limp home with :stunned:

32009

"Dear mum, had a very exciting day today. Jonny took a picture. Hope you and dad are well and don't worry about me too much, your loving son Freddie"

Mysticpuma
Oct-24-2017, 14:41
Sounds are still being worked on..... cheers MP

ATAG_Colander
Oct-24-2017, 14:44
It's quite surprising how much damage you can limp home with :stunned:

32009


"Dear mom, the dog you sent me keeps chewing my toys. Please take it back"

:D

IIJG27Rich
Oct-24-2017, 16:19
Sounds are still being worked on..... cheers MP

I remember that Merlin and Daimler Benz sound video sounded great. From July 2016 was it?

Bussard
Oct-24-2017, 16:30
Do we have any recordings of what it was actually like? I always thought it anemic myself. Just shooting one bullet is loud. I imagine 8 .303 brownings going off to sound like tearing linen or a sail as opposed to ripping a shirt to use an analogy we all know.

I love the new Luftwaffe sounds. I do like the new British sound too but understand why people will miss the old one.

What reference was used to change the sounds? Is it something we can listen to to compare?

Good question I was already searching the web for the sound of 8x .303. What about the sound that is used in the movie Battle of Britain or in First Light? Would be nice if we get one of these.

9./JG52 Kettarian_Fox
Oct-24-2017, 16:38
Do we have any recordings of what it was actually like? I always thought it anemic myself. Just shooting one bullet is loud. I imagine 8 .303 brownings going off to sound like tearing linen or a sail as opposed to ripping a shirt to use an analogy we all know.

I love the new Luftwaffe sounds. I do like the new British sound too but understand why people will miss the old one.

What reference was used to change the sounds? Is it something we can listen to to compare?



For the strenghtening of Hurricane wings. Countzero was messing with the original files and discovered the seam is where the weakness is. Is this what you guys found as well? I do like flying the Hurricane but as a pretty solid 109 pilot even I think Hurricane wings pop off too easy. I have some footage of one shell in the sweet spot from last week popping a wing off. Is it useful to post it?

The mg sounds in this are actually from TF 3.0 or originals from release (never played the unmodded game so its just a guess, 3.0 definitely had those for the 109s)
Matter of taste I suppose but the current one I like more cause it has a kind of 'pop' in the loop denoting each individual shot with a sorta mechanical sound interspersed with it - which is logically correct as any gunshot is big air 'pop', and you'd naturally hear mechanical sounds, normally somewhat drowned, better in a cockpit as the vibrations transfer through the body of an airplane. How it all really sounded in flight we can only guess I suppose, definitely very different from firing the same weapon on the ground due to the big powerful engine without any mufflers, vibrations from firing transfering and so on. BoX leans on the mechanical aspect a lot for instance, and I very much prefer the pom-pom-pom of the 109 cannons in Cliffs (one of the most satisfying gunfire sounds in all gaming, in my opinion - big kudos for the TF sound guy - actually a big reason why I fly mostly 109s. That and the orange flashes).
So again, a matter of taste.

AKA_Knutsac
Oct-24-2017, 16:52
Awe, why shy away from the old 8x .303 gun sounds? That was a really neat sound effect :(

Looks good though! Great to see AI flying and rear gunner working for 4.5

Re: the mg sounds, the issue has been discussed at length in the past. Here's an excerpt from one of my earlier posts:

I suspect you're referencing the .303 ("brrrrrrpppppp") sounds in the Brit planes? If so, it's been discussed before and I think consensus is it's pretty accurate. I don't have DCS, but keep in mind the P-51 had six "heavy" .50 cals (~700 RPM each) v. the Spit/Hurri eight "light" .303 cals (~1200 RPM each). You can hear a single .303 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvb2aT2Pg-M. The revised .303 sounds did take me by surprise at first, but after thinking more about it, I really like the authentic sound. Consider also the relevant passages I pulled from first person memoirs:

“It’s grand to sit there and hear a noise like taut canvas ripping as the eight guns send out flashing white streaks towards their objective.” (“Ten Fighter Boys”; 1942; Pg 32)

“Closing to about 300 or 400 yards, I opened fire, the bullets roared out over the noise of the engine. They don’t rattle like an ordinary Army Vickers gun. No sir! When eight Brownings open fire – what a thrill! The smoke whips back into the cockpit and sends a thrill running down your spine.” (“Ten Fighter Boys”; 1942; Pg 49)

“My right thumb felt for the firing button on the stick and pressed it. A muffled “B-r-r-r-p” came from the wings and I felt the aircraft check slightly as eight streams of tracer spanned the space between us.” (“Spitfire: The experiences of a Battle of Britain fighter pilot” by Brian Lane; 1942; Pg 49)

“I pressed the firing button. The muffled “Br-r-r-r-p” of the guns came to my ears as streams of tracer leaped from the wings…” (“Spitfire: The experiences of a Battle of Britain fighter pilot” by Brian Lane; 1942; Pg 93)

Cheers

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2017, 17:02
The issue with the Browning 'Brrrp' sound is copyright.

Until we can gather our own version we may need to stick with something not quite as appropriate.

ATAG_Colander
Oct-24-2017, 17:13
The issue with the Browning 'Brrrp' sound is copyright.

Until we can gather our own version we may need to stick with something not quite as appropriate.

So we are accepting donations in the form of a working spitfire machine gun and bullets :)

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2017, 17:16
So we are accepting donations in the form of a working spitfire machine gun and bullets :)

Or a working P-40B/C wing gun.

Or someone who doesn't mind firing off theirs. :D

7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER
Oct-24-2017, 17:56
So we are accepting donations in the form of a working spitfire machine gun and bullets :)

Maybe the army or the BBC would let someone record?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deYM9mCN9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deYM9mCN9s

AKA_Knutsac
Oct-24-2017, 19:09
The issue with the Browning 'Brrrp' sound is copyright.

Until we can gather our own version we may need to stick with something not quite as appropriate.

Give me a day or two on a bean and cabbage diet and a wooden bench and I'll work up a nice long "Brrrp" sound sample.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

69th_Zeb
Oct-24-2017, 21:21
I have a way to record an M1919 chambered for American .30 but there's a lot more to it than recording a single shot (or 8 at the same time). Full auto is also out of the question unless you're specially licensed like the dudes below, which also changes the sound.

You'd have to find out what it'd sound like without ground and having the audio modulated by the airframe....or be better off re-engineering the audio from scratch (or just using what we have, which I think is fine). You wonder too if the EA crew would be willing to license their stuff for a reasonable price.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqJEFVcYD1g

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-25-2017, 00:09
Maybe the army or the BBC would let someone record?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deYM9mCN9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deYM9mCN9s

We are quite familiar with that story.

We'd have to buy that sound from the BBC.

Archer99
Oct-25-2017, 04:41
Are we going to lose any other sounds due to copyright? Would hate to lose the authentic engine sounds we have at the moment.

MightyBouff
Oct-25-2017, 04:54
It seems odd that we are losing sounds! I'm sure something will get sorted. As a community why don't we 'grab' the sounds now and we can put out a mod pack with some...erm...'new' sounds in them which will work with 5.0. Notihng to do with TFS then...

ATAG_((dB))
Oct-25-2017, 08:07
I love the new "G" effect.

As for the sound of the 303 we need to remember that once inside the cockpit wearing the helmet with headphone it muffle the sound and cut or reduce most hi frequency. Although that I prefer the previous 303's sound they, I assume, should sound more like a tum then a tac, more toward the low freq then the HI. I do have the feeling that they sound more realistic on this video but the rate of fire sound to slow, again it's a feeling I might be wrong.

In a nutshell what we would ear from 8 Browning shooting recording and what if would actually sound with earring protection devise are two different things, I doubt the an actual recording of a muffled 303 sound is available

o7

buster_dee
Oct-25-2017, 09:50
Didn't 777's sound engineer rebuild the CloD sound engine early on? If 777 have crossed this bridge (.303 or 30 Cal in lend-lease ac), maybe they would cooperate. Might be a good precedent too.

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-25-2017, 11:09
Didn't 777's sound engineer rebuild the CloD sound engine early on? If 777 have crossed this bridge (.303 or 30 Cal in lend-lease ac), maybe they would cooperate. Might be a good precedent too.

I really wouldn't be concerned. It's not as if TFS are unable to compile new sounds. It just seems like the go to topic of discussion right now. Which is fine.

Just no cause for concern.

Im pretty sure inolving another software company just for the sound file would just be a hugely unnecessary addition of too many cooks. Kinda like elton john asking Andrew Loydd Webber to write him a chorus.

No doubt he could... But....

Completely unnecessary.

buster_dee
Oct-25-2017, 11:29
The work may already have been done, and it could skirt copyright issues. I'm not lobbying for it.

BOO
Oct-25-2017, 11:43
Pretty certain TFS will be weighing up and pursuing all the obvious and not so obvious options

ATAG_((dB))
Oct-25-2017, 12:00
Yep not worried at all ;)

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-25-2017, 12:00
The work may already have been done, and it could skirt copyright issues. I'm not lobbying for it.

I ceratinly didn't mean to suggest you were. :salute:



I really dont know how the inter cooperation between sofware companies goes.

Certainly in my industry, and I asume most private concerns, if you can do it in house, that's what you do.

If there is the slightest chance of being servered with a cease and desist notice, or compromising yourself with a potential future claim, you stay well away from other peoples interlectual property.

ie: Suitable files may already exist. Whether its wise to use them is another matter.

That was basically all i was trying to say.

:thumbsup:

buster_dee
Oct-25-2017, 12:56
Agreed. Thanks.

Catseye
Oct-28-2017, 13:48
Do we have any recordings of what it was actually like? I always thought it anemic myself. Just shooting one bullet is loud. I imagine 8 .303 brownings going off to sound like tearing linen or a sail as opposed to ripping a shirt to use an analogy we all know.

I love the new Luftwaffe sounds. I do like the new British sound too but understand why people will miss the old one.

What reference was used to change the sounds? Is it something we can listen to to compare?



For the strenghtening of Hurricane wings. Countzero was messing with the original files and discovered the seam is where the weakness is. Is this what you guys found as well? I do like flying the Hurricane but as a pretty solid 109 pilot even I think Hurricane wings pop off too easy. I have some footage of one shell in the sweet spot from last week popping a wing off. Is it useful to post it?


Yes, sounds like heavy fabric ripping - from several pilot reports in several books. Along with sparkling yellow flash of the DeWilde rounds hitting. (not big explosions).

1lokos
Oct-28-2017, 18:56
Do we have any recordings of what it was actually like?

A burst is audible in Garner 1940 Dover record - far from ideal conditions, 1940's equipment in ground, but is just a "Brrrp". Garner say "Spitfire" but in fact are Hurricanes in this action.

https://youtu.be/jLtZ3xnSK40?t=117

Hyperus
Oct-30-2017, 07:36
A burst is audible in Garner 1940 Dover record - far from ideal conditions, 1940's equipment in ground, but is just a "Brrrp". Garner say "Spitfire" but in fact are Hurricanes in this action.

https://youtu.be/jLtZ3xnSK40?t=117

Nice, I think the new sound is fine when a burst starts, but wouldnt overtime small inaccuracies lead to a desync?

buster_dee
Oct-30-2017, 08:57
A burst is audible in Garner 1940 Dover record - far from ideal conditions, 1940's equipment in ground, but is just a "Brrrp". Garner say "Spitfire" but in fact are Hurricanes in this action.

https://youtu.be/jLtZ3xnSK40?t=117

Really enjoyed that.

danperin
Oct-30-2017, 09:38
A burst is audible in Garner 1940 Dover record - far from ideal conditions, 1940's equipment in ground, but is just a "Brrrp". Garner say "Spitfire" but in fact are Hurricanes in this action.

https://youtu.be/jLtZ3xnSK40?t=117


Here, Sokol: https://youtu.be/uyMNBSKOae4

An actual hurricane test fire.

ATAG_Ribbs
Oct-30-2017, 12:51
Yes you can here that "Blurp"..at the end in between the "brrrup" tearing sound. I feel that's what the sounds need to feel more authentic.

Vlerkies
Oct-30-2017, 13:16
How were the Brownings synched timing wise? What methodology was used to set them up?

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-30-2017, 13:50
How were the Brownings synched timing wise? What methodology was used to set them up?

Very good question. Anyone know?

Vlerkies
Oct-30-2017, 14:01
Reason I ask is theres a good video of a single gun firing that was dug up after 70 years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-15660438/test-firing-a-spitfire-machine-gun

Just messing around quick and x8 trying to recreate the prrrrt. :)
Sound varies dramatically depending on the timing of when each gun fires though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f6iZf1fzBk&feature=youtu.be

ATAG_Vampire
Oct-30-2017, 14:14
Extract from Section 7 of A.P.1984 Standard Technical Training Notes for Fitters Armourer and Armourers.

"Constructing a Harmonisation Diagram

Select a position on a wall or hangar door with a level strip adjoining it sufficient to permit an aircraft to be positioned 50 yards away and at right angles to it. Using a door has the advantage that it can be moved to bring vertical sighting line into line with the plumb bobs on the aircraft.

The aircraft must be set up on trestles until it is just clear of the ground and horizontal for and aft laterally. (responsibility of Flight Mechanic A.)

Drop plumb lines from the propeller spinner and from the tail of the aircraft (on twin engined aircraft from a central point og the nose or front leg of the tricycle undercarriage). By sighting in the line of these two plumb lines the position of a vertical sighting line can be obtained on the door or wall.

Adjust the innermost gun of each wing, using an Inclinometer (or Abney level) so that it is at the angle given in the harmonisation instructions in Vol. I of the aircraft handbook, e.g. Hurricane , 2 degrees up, Whirlwind and Beaufighter horizontal.

The horizontal sighting line can now be obtained by sighting through the barrels of these two innermost guns with a gun aligning instrument, and marking the two points obtained on the door or wall. A straight line drawn through these two points will become the horizontal sighting line. Where only one gun is used as a datum gun, the barrel should be sighted through the point marked on the door or walland a line drawn through the mark at right angles to the vertical sighting line so forming the horizontal sighting line.

The complete diagram can now be constructed from the dimensions given. This is a Works Department responsibility, although the selection of the vertical and horizontal sighting lines must be done by the unit armament personnel.

The dimensions of the discs and sighting lines areas follows:-

Vertical and horizontal sighting lines white 1 in. wide.

Gun sighting discs to be coloured as stipulated in the diagram and to be 12 in. in diameter for 20 mm. guns, 10 in. for .5 in. guns and 9 in. for .303 in.guns.

Gunsight disc to be 12 in. in diameter with cross wires, all bands to be 1 in.wide and black in colour.

Cine camera discto be 8 in.in diameter with cross wires, all bands to be 1 in. wide and black in colour.

Owing to the difficulty of moving heavy aircraft, harmonisation stands must be used when harmonising twin-engined aircraft.

An Example of Harmonisation Diagram for Spitfire Vc

Gun sight 2' 11" above horizontal sighting line on vertical sighting line

Camera Gun 2.5" below horizontal sighting line, 15.5" to left of vertical sighting line

Inner guns on horizontal sighting line, 5'5" left and right of vertical sighting line

Onter guns 8" above horizontal sighting line, 6'7" left and right of vertical sighting line

Port and Starboard inner guns to be aligned 1 degree up to datum

Harmonising a Fighter Aircraft

Set the aircraft up on front and rear trestles at a distance of 50 yrds. from the wall door or stand (measured from both wheel hubs). The aircraft should be just clear of the ground and horizontal fore and aft laterally.

Drop plumb lines from the spinner (or centre of the nose) and tail of the aircraft and adjust the door or harmonisation stand so that the plumb lines are in line with the vertical sighting line.

Using the Inclinometer (or Abney level) adjust the innermost gun of each wing so that it is at the angle given in the harmonisation instructions in the relevant aircraft handbook Vol. I.

If a wall diagram is being used adjust the position of the aircraft maintaining the aircraft datum horizontal until the inner gun or guns are sighted on the correct discs on the wall diagram. If a stand is used, adjust the stand vertically, maintaining it level until the correct discs are sighted on the inner guns or gun.

Adjust the remaining guns so that they are sighted in the centre of their appropriate discs. Lock the guns with locking wire and recheck.

Adjust the gun sight so that the centre dot of the graticule appears in the centre of the gun-sighting disc. Check the alignment after clamping.

Adjust the cine camera gun using the harmonisation unit until it is harmonised on the appropriate disc, it should then be locked and rechecked. "

Hope this helps. :thumbsup:

o7 :salute:

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-30-2017, 14:21
Reason I ask is theres a good video of a single gun firing that was dug up after 70 years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-15660438/test-firing-a-spitfire-machine-gun

Just messing around quick and x8 trying to recreate the prrrrt. :)
Sound varies dramatically depending on the timing of when each gun fires though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f6iZf1fzBk&feature=youtu.be

yep... if they all fire syncronised its gonan ba Ratta-A-Tat-Tat...

if the fire staggered betwen all eight its gonna be DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
its a really good question.

Vlerkies
Oct-30-2017, 14:21
Thx, thats more harmonization though. Come to think of it not sure if there were / or could have been firing timing settings as each weapon will just do its own thing when initiated?

ATAG_Colander
Oct-30-2017, 14:23
Thx, thats more harmonization though. Come to think of it not sure if there were / or could have been firing timing settings as each weapon will just do its own thing when initiated?

I can't think of any reason why you would need any synchronizing between MGs besides "start/stop firing"

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-30-2017, 14:24
Come to think of it not sure if there were / or could have been firing timing settings as each weapon will just do its own thing when initiated?

Probably...

i mean... Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr / Ob-Ab-Lee

Vlerkies
Oct-30-2017, 14:24
yep... if they all fire syncronised its gonan ba Ratta-A-Tat-Tat...

if the fire staggered betwen all eight its gonna be DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
its a really good question.
Indeed :)
Just messed with it a little to see, the sound in the video is dirty and loud but pretty sure one could 're-create' a 8 gun prrttttt with some manipulation/filtering and timing adjustments from the real deal.
Actually if you stagger them to much is moves beyond prrrrt to just a mess, so I linked them in pairs.

danperin
Oct-30-2017, 14:36
Loving this thread so far... "Some goes Drrrrrr, others goes ratatatat and there's some pew-pew-pew..." :)

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-30-2017, 14:43
Loving this thread so far... "Some goes Drrrrrr, others goes ratatatat and there's some pew-pew-pew..." :)

yeah...

It's a pretty creative space right here huh ?!

roflmao

ATAG_Colander
Oct-30-2017, 14:43
In reality each would have a slightly different frequency which randomly increases/decreases. The problem with making htem for a game is that frequencies are periodic and if recorded, the loop will sound repetitive.
To do it right, each gun sound should "sound" separately in the game just so you can add that frequency randomness but then you would be taking 8 sound channels just for one plane.

As with everything in any real-time program, there has to be a balance between realistic and what the computer can "realistically" do.

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-30-2017, 14:49
In reality each would have a slightly different frequency which randomly increases/decreases. The problem with making htem for a game is that frequencies are periodic and if recorded, the loop will sound repetitive.
To do it right, each gun sound should "sound" separately in the game just so you can add that frequency randomness but then you would be taking 8 sound channels just for one plane.

As with everything in any real-time program, there has to be a balance between realistic and what the computer can "realistically" do.

Yeah.

maybe if we all get 8 PC's though.. one for each gun... and then... and somehow syncroni...

ahhh forget it... we'd need Windows 8

:doh:

Vlerkies
Oct-30-2017, 14:50
Makes perfect sense Colander. :salute:
Anyway was just a quick 5 minute little experiment for fun, also its open field not stuck away in the wings somewhere.

ATAG_Colander
Oct-30-2017, 14:58
Yeah.

maybe if we all get 8 PC's though.. one for each gun... and then... and somehow syncroni...

ahhh forget it... we'd need Windows 8

:doh:

8 PCs if you are the only one firing. If you add bombers and other fighters you end up needing Windows 300 :D

DerDa
Oct-30-2017, 15:01
Last sunday morning I had a little break from flying and went past the kitchen, when my wife hapened to ripp a sheet from the roll of paper towels I really jumped...

Record that and you have just the sound we are used to :)

ATAG_Ribbs
Oct-30-2017, 15:02
I can't think of any reason why you would need any synchronizing between MGs besides "start/stop firing"


If you have them firing at the same time you don't have the spread as you would of they were desynced just a split second. With an aircraft moving at hundreds of miles an hour..(like say a high deflection shot)..it gives a better bullet dispersal coverage.

ATAG_Colander
Oct-30-2017, 15:08
If you have them firing at the same time you don't have the spread as you would of they were desynced just a split second. With an aircraft moving at hundreds of miles an hour..(like say a high deflection shot)..it gives a better bullet dispersal coverage.

Exactly. A shotgun effect :D

farley
Oct-30-2017, 15:46
Loving this thread so far... "Some goes Drrrrrr, others goes ratatatat and there's some pew-pew-pew..." :)

Kinda like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLYefZkOMB0

Or if it really sounds like tearing cloth, then, well here we go. Just put this in....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXE3Jc0wihk

You're welcome. I should be part of TF, don't you think?

Easy Peasy....:)

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-30-2017, 16:18
Kinda like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLYefZkOMB0

Or if it really sounds like tearing cloth, then, well here we go. Just put this in....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXE3Jc0wihk

You're welcome. I should be part of TF, don't you think?

Easy Peasy....:)

yeah...

The two played together... wow...

I think you may have just found that "new new sound"


(Now go hide them in a cave... under a mountain... beneath an ocean... on another planet... and preferably in a different galaxy)

:D

ATAG_Ribbs
Oct-30-2017, 17:07
Exactly. A shotgun effect :D


Haha apologies.. I must have misunderstood your post.. :D

major_setback
Oct-30-2017, 17:14
yeah...

The two played together... wow...


:D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLYefZkOMB0




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXE3Jc0wihk


Yes, it is indeed a revelation. Both videos simultaneously ... it should be a hit!

ATAG_Ribbs
Oct-30-2017, 17:20
Exactly. A shotgun effect :D
Haha..appolagies. I must have misunderstood your post. :D

Not gonna lie tho.. I was High 5ing myself... roflmao

BOO
Oct-30-2017, 17:25
yeah...

The two played together... wow...

I think you may have just found that "new new sound"


(Now go hide them in a cave... under a mountain... beneath an ocean... on another planet... and preferably in a different galaxy)

:D

0.07 is the sound I make when I realise the "noob" ive been hunting is bloody Gr00ve in disguise...

farley
Oct-30-2017, 20:09
0.07 is the sound I make when I realise the "noob" ive been hunting is bloody Gr00ve in disguise...


:glaughter:


I was thinking the same sort of thing BOO...... that's why i wear two pair of shorts when flying!:stunned:

69th_Zeb
Oct-30-2017, 20:42
Hi nerds!

So I talked to my local Browning guru today, who knows every piece in those guns.

Every gun out of the shop is going to fire at different rates and the rate is primarily dependent on these three factors:
1. Booster type and condition at the end of the barrel.
2. Ammunition loading quality, type (tracer, grains, incendiary, etc), and other related factors.
3. Your internals and wear, such as the sear.

Other factors I'm thinking of are temperature/moisture at altitude changing clearances and frictions which, on top of affecting the gun, would also affect the contact speed of each solenoid. Mechanical relays and poor electrical contacts will place a substantial delay between guns...or they won't fire at all. ha.

Etsy.com has a tin foil hat for sale for $7 and I vote for the Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrp! sound (ie, random buzz and screw the harmonics). ;)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/261034459/minimalist-aluminum-foil-hat-gag-gift?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=aluminum%20foil%20hat&ref=sr_gallery_3

:salute:

ATAG_Highseas
Oct-31-2017, 06:45
Etsy.com has a tin foil hat for sale for $7 and I vote for the Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrp! sound (ie, random buzz and screw the harmonics). ;)




I concur. :salute:

A uniformly rythmic sounds where you can count the shells doesn't seem very likely for a load of machine guns of any type all firing at once.

Gromit
Oct-31-2017, 09:51
yep... if they all fire syncronised its gonan ba Ratta-A-Tat-Tat...

if the fire staggered betwen all eight its gonna be DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
its a really good question.

Your not going to get a synchronised rate of fire, each of the 8 guns will start and stop firing at slightly different time, they will all fire at a different rate of fire, this is simply a result of wear and tear on the recoil, feed and cocking mechanism, how clean the guns are, how consistently loaded the cartridges and belts are, etc, so you will always end up with a high speed fart!

ATAG_Ribbs
Oct-31-2017, 13:14
I'm going to be extremely disappointed if someone doesn't loop a fart track and see what we come up with.. roflmao

danperin
Oct-31-2017, 13:46
I'm going to be extremely disappointed if someone doesn't loop a fart track and see what we come up with.. roflmao


Something like this? :D


https://vocaroo.com/i/s0rRFowA7451

ATAG_Ribbs
Oct-31-2017, 15:30
Nailed it! :)

Tell me you wouldn't laugh every time you squeezed the trigger... roflmao

danperin
Oct-31-2017, 16:36
Nailed it! :)

Tell me you wouldn't laugh every time you squeezed the trigger... roflmao

Imagine short bursts!

And the sound of the belts finishing should be just a discrete "Pfffft..." :D

ATAG_Flare
Oct-31-2017, 19:47
Nailed it! :)

Tell me you wouldn't laugh every time you squeezed the trigger... roflmao

https://youtu.be/eE_msAKWdOs?t=57s

69th_Zeb
Oct-31-2017, 23:05
https://youtu.be/eE_msAKWdOs?t=57s

"USA is dominate" I can't remember the last time I laughed this hard. Good one Flare.

BOBC
Dec-28-2017, 18:51
Can one simply pluck the sound file for machine guns from MoD 4.312 and paste it into the appropriate place in 4.5 Blitz ?
No doubt a thousand reasons why not but asking anyway.
I for one dont want poor m'gun sounds as thats a vital part of the experience, its what its all about at end of the day, all the manufacturing, training, building,,all to fire a gun at the opponents ! To make a video as the sim allows with incorrect sounds it will ruin the effort of making the video. Any posted to YouTube will detract from the sims promotion.
The engine sounds will be based on recordings I supplied, and maybe others, we didnt go out and record those, they exist from various quarters. They get sampled and used. same goes for m'gun sounds off youtube etc, sample them and rework them. Remove the mgun due to copyright fears and also then you need to remove the engine sounds !

BOBC

Ohms
Dec-28-2017, 19:09
Can one simply pluck the sound file for machine guns from MoD 4.312 and paste it into the appropriate place in 4.5 Blitz ?
No doubt a thousand reasons why not but asking anyway.
I for one dont want poor m'gun sounds as thats a vital part of the experience, its what its all about at end of the day, all the manufacturing, training, building,,all to fire a gun at the opponents ! To make a video as the sim allows with incorrect sounds it will ruin the effort of making the video. Any posted to YouTube will detract from the sims promotion.
The engine sounds will be based on recordings I supplied, and maybe others, we didnt go out and record those, they exist from various quarters. They get sampled and used. same goes for m'gun sounds off youtube etc, sample them and rework them. Remove the mgun due to copyright fears and also then you need to remove the engine sounds !

BOBC
Legal reasons as explained. They have legal license for engines but not the 303 gun sounds. If you make videos with edited sounds other than the ones provided then you are open too the legal issues not 1C or TFS.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-28-2017, 19:46
Can one simply pluck the sound file for machine guns from MoD 4.312 and paste it into the appropriate place in 4.5 Blitz ?
No doubt a thousand reasons why not but asking anyway.
I for one dont want poor m'gun sounds as thats a vital part of the experience, its what its all about at end of the day, all the manufacturing, training, building,,all to fire a gun at the opponents ! To make a video as the sim allows with incorrect sounds it will ruin the effort of making the video. Any posted to YouTube will detract from the sims promotion.
The engine sounds will be based on recordings I supplied, and maybe others, we didnt go out and record those, they exist from various quarters. They get sampled and used. same goes for m'gun sounds off youtube etc, sample them and rework them. Remove the mgun due to copyright fears and also then you need to remove the engine sounds !

BOBC

Yes you can transfer the sounds from 4.312 to 4.5... but you will need to accept all sounds from 4.312... you can't pick and choose.

Open TF 4.312 and go to "il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover/parts/bob/" and "il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover/parts/core" and copy the 'fsamples' folder from those and paste into the equivalent folders in TF 4.5.

Make sure you turn off Steam Game Updates.

You probably also won't be able to play online with the old sounds.

BOBC
Dec-29-2017, 12:11
Hi, RAF74_Buzzsaw.
Sounds good to me :)
However will that lose me the accurate engine sounds of Blitz ?
has CoD got ALL sounds in this one file ?

We need correct engine and mgun , been a long time waiting, goes without saying.


ATAG-Ohms
They have legal license for engines but not the 303 gun sounds

If we can source mgun sounds from sources happy to help, is that the problem overcome ?

You say they have legal licence for engines, is that engine sounds we have sampled from e.g the files I sent ? That whatever the source, they are covered for it ?

There are folk with Brownings, MG15s and , maybe MG-FF that can do a test fire and record it on decent sound kit for us, and waive their rights, be only too glad to help.

How have other sims acquired their gun sounds ?

Online playing not a loss for me, but for folk that do fly online, then they will have to lose the M'gun sounds. I dont believe we are faced with a loss of something after all this hard work, like a bad dream.

The video in Bart_NL post#1 has definite Canon type sounds for 8 brownings, more like a Spit MkV firing its canons, that cannot remain as the new mgun sound.

BOBC