The world is going crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IIJG27Rich]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/10/18/federal-court-rules-world-war-memorial-cross-must-be-torn-down.html

[BOO]

I guess its as complicated or as simple, as right or as wrong, as a persons own beliefs and pre-dispositions want it to be.

The Humanists make a salient point if you are one way inclined, they don't if you are another. The law cannot make judgments on anything but the law as it is set out at the time of the judgment.

The world hasn't gone crazy - it was always this way. Its sadly why the cross is there in the first place.

Perhaps in a perverse way, it may even serve to put the 49 men which the cross honours into the consciousness of people who may not have been aware of their service before.

Strange things are glorious public monuments - erected with pomp and fanfare to demonstrate how grateful we were and how soon we will forget if not constantly reminded.

[ATAG_Lewis]

There is a Great War memorial in the centre of most UK towns and villages that were erected just after the war...You tend not see as many WW2 memorials...Probably because the Great War ones took the first prominent position in the towns and a second war wasn't predicted at the time...

I haven't heard of any being taken down or demolished in the UK...They are sometimes moved when road works are done and then repositioned as has happened in our local village...Every year you will see wreaths around it...Maybe because most of the inhabitants had relatives that died in the Great War...They often mark the centre of a village or town and give the locals a centre point...

Shame to see one demolished...Why isn't the one mentioned above simply moved if its an obstruction of sort?

[BOO]

Its not an obstruction Lew - its design has been found to be against the US Constitution

“The monument here has the primary effect of endorsing religion and excessively entangles the government in religion,”

[ATAG_Lewis]

Oh...I see...I didn't read the article...Religion...Constitution...I'm out!

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

The issue is not the war memorial... the issue is the symbol used.

Here is a picture of an American Normandy WWII Cemetary... notice some of the markings are crosses, some are other faiths:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6a/79/18/6a7918f3c5b62640d01131c1d88e5c42--anti-semitic-dog-tags.jpg

Would it be appropriate to put up a cross over a Jewish soldier's grave?

The United States is a secular state... it does not have a State religion... one of the things which differentiates it from many authoritarian regimes... like for example, Iran. In those countries with State Religions, laws usually are used to put those who are not of the official faith in positions of second class status.

Right now the world is looking at Myanmar/Burma and the situation with the Rohingya genocide... one of the reasons that is happening because the official policy, although there is not a state religion, endorses Buddhism and exercises a bias against Christians and Muslims. Neither group can get government jobs or join the army and there are many discriminatory laws.

Here is the entrance of the Iranian Iran/Iraq War memorial with the Ayatollah Khomeini and religious symbolism:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/72fccd2353294a0dab1d08436cbb6cbd/iran-tehran-a-mural-depicting-the-ayatollah-and-martyrs-at-the-main-a8rh0b.jpg

Here is the United States WWII War Memorial in Washington... no crosses, because the memorial is for all those soldiers of any faith who fought in WWII:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/USA-World_War_II_Memorial0.jpg

The issue is when the government puts up an official memorial, that memorial must represent all the citizens of the country.

This memorial needs to be moved to the grounds of a church or a private location and be replaced by a non-denominational memorial.

[Arthursmedley]

Buzzsaw, the UK has a state religion - its called The Church of England.

[ATAG_Colander]

Well, depends...
It reads "to honor the memory of 49 men who perished during World War I". The question for me is:
Where those 49 men religion represented by the cross?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Buzzsaw, the UK has a state religion - its called The Church of England.

You are right... and the Church of England used to massacre or burn Catholics at the stake regularly... or hang draw and quarter them. (See "Gunpowder" series for some illustrations)

Now it behaves better. ;)

The first emigrants to America were Pilgrims... a religious sect who were persecuted by the Church of England.

One of the differences between the US when it was founded... and the governments which existed in Europe and elsewhere is many of its citizens did not want to be labeled and catagorized... they wanted freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. So they created a constitution which prevented discrimination on the basis of religion.

[BOO]

So they created a constitution which prevented discrimination on the basis of religion.


....unless you were considered (largely by good, god fearing Christians with one eye on you ancestral lands) a godless nomadic heathen. Then all bets were off. Here, have some alcohol and settle down, Do you have a reservation?

Humans are humans. They flee persecution and use their new found freedom freedom to pursue persecutions of their own. And all their grand ideals remain just that.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

....unless you were considered (largely by good, god fearing Christians with one eye on you ancestral lands) a godless nomadic heathen. Then all bets were off. Here, have some alcohol and settle down, Do you have a reservation?

Humans are humans. They flee persecution and use their new found freedom freedom to pursue persecutions of their own. And all their grand ideals remain just that.

You got it right... which is why you need to have laws and a constitution which prevents this sort of thing from happening again.

[ATAG_Highseas]

I haven't heard of any being taken down or demolished in the UK...

I have.

Marlborough Road Lancing

WWI monument. Though to look at its you'd have been hard pressed to tell. It was in a shockingly bad state.

It was in the centre of a car park. Which is now a business park.

Nobody wanted to keep it. Nobody objected to its demolition.

Its the only case I know of first hand. Though i expect there are more.

[ATAG_Highseas]

....unless you were considered (largely by good, god fearing Christians with one eye on you ancestral lands) a godless nomadic heathen.

And that is precisely why I'm a godless heathen with a house.

EDIT:

that said i dont have any ancesteral lands... so perhaps i dont actually need the house after all.

It occurs that I may have over thought things when I put the offer in.

[MightyBouff]

I think you have to look at them at the time. If it was appropriate then we'll I'm not going to argue now. Religion is often a touchy subject. Personally I have none, but if I'd died in the war then I don't think I'd care of I was memorialised under a cross. I'm generally not a fan of revisionist history, like pulling down statues as we've seen in America and the UK. If you can't explain why something was put up, and why it now no longer represents something to be proud of, then you're no steward of history.

[BOO]

I I'm generally not a fan of revisionist history,

you could argue most history is revisionist - much of what we perceive to be our history in the UK was written by the victors, set down in plays to please their ancestors and re-examined in the light of modern thinking and to suit political causes various down the line.

Going back to Buzzsaws reference to The Gunpowder Plot - Ole Guido was a bad guy when I was at school - we burnt on our bonfires - now he's some subjugated patsy hanging out with some righteously p155ed of Catholics - what he will be by the end of the series is anyones guess.

History is what you were told last..

[ATAG_Highseas]

History is what you were told last..

Got it! :salute:

History is that there isnt any toilet roll left.

[BOO]

but in 200 years time, as they unveil your statue to a grateful world, history will show that you were pondering the universe from your leather clad study (as you did each evening) when you occasioned upon the source of everlasting power (the reciprocating elastic band twizzler) after light heartedly watching your child play and having a eureka moment....

not that you had a random thought about the stuff in your pocket whilst on the way to the shops and thought nothing more about it until an episode of Robot Wars got you thinking and certainly no mention will be made of poor housekeeping or the distressed boy stuck on the toilet....

[MightyBouff]

I'm not so sure Boo. I think now we can revisit past conclusions and review conclusions. Yes Guido was clearly in the wrong for trying to blow people up, but what drove him to it.

So when I say I'm not for revisionist history, I don't agree with with erasing it or its symbols, but I am for revising our conclusions or stereotypes about it.

[ATAG_Freya]

History is that there isnt any toilet roll left.

And therefore history should not be wiped clean, but left to remind us that in one way or another, we've all had s*&^ to deal with.

I only looked at the OP's article, so please forgive if I sound harsh. But will these people piss on soldiers graves too? Maybe just the ones whose dogtags had 'RC' stamped on them? Shame on them, I hope they rot in hell or whatever bad place it is that they don't believe in, or would be offended about if anyone else did..

[Arthursmedley]

You are right... and the Church of England used to massacre or burn Catholics at the stake regularly... or hang draw and quarter them. (See "Gunpowder" series for some illustrations)

Now it behaves better. ;)

The first emigrants to America were Pilgrims... a religious sect who were persecuted by the Church of England.

One of the differences between the US when it was founded... and the governments which existed in Europe and elsewhere is many of its citizens did not want to be labeled and catagorized... they wanted freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. So they created a constitution which prevented discrimination on the basis of religion.

Buzzsaw the Church of England also used to burn protestants at the stake regularly too and the pilgrim fathers emigrated to the 'states to practice their own form of religious bigotry without interruption. Being an athiest I at least have the luxury of not having to worry about which man's vision of an afterlife I should adhere too.

My point is that religion is most often the excuse but not the motive for a power grab by one group - or tribe - over another. What's happening in Burma is a good example of this.

[DerDa]

you could argue most history is revisionist - much of what we perceive to be our history in the UK was written by the victors, set down in plays to please their ancestors and re-examined in the light of modern thinking and to suit political causes various down the line.

History is what you were told last..

Sorry, in defense of my 'modern' colleagues I have to (partly) disagree.
At least you should distinguish between 'popular history' or 'history as understood and used by politicians' and History as an academic (in non English languages scientific) subject.

Those two are very often extremely contradictionary.
Academic History in the recent decades, especially written by 'victors', often is extremely critical of its own group, (post-colonial studies etc.). Sometimes this might even be exaggerated, but is still necessary to find a balance.

Academic History is just like FM in flight sims (that are Scientific history if they on the level of CloD):
You know that you can never get it 100% right, but you try to get closer all the time.

The worrying thing is that popular art and politicians use their personal fantasy histories, selling them as 'real history' to push their agenda.
Nazi germany is an especially extreme example, but you can find the same sh... argument ('My ancestors lived here 500 years ago! This land is mine!' 'Mine 1000 years!' 'Mine 2000!' '5000!' Who is offering more?) thriving in almost every modern conflict.

And if you take a look at education, all over the world, you see that 'History' and the kind of critical thinking that goes with it is more and more replaced with MINT.
Makes it much easier for politicians to sell 'fantasy history' and now take look at election results world wide ...

[ZG26_Sir_Racha]

History is pretty much a set of half truths that everyone just agrees on

[DerDa]

History is pretty much a set of half truths that everyone just agrees on

Thats a cute line, but: no. Its not!
Just visit any Historians conference if you want to see very, very little agreement.

[baronWastelan]

Canada takes crazy to a new level: https://jalopnik.com/guy-pulled-over-and-fined-for-singing-in-car-demanding-1819771939

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Buzzsaw the Church of England also used to burn protestants at the stake regularly too and the pilgrim fathers emigrated to the 'states to practice their own form of religious bigotry without interruption. Being an athiest I at least have the luxury of not having to worry about which man's vision of an afterlife I should adhere too.

My point is that religion is most often the excuse but not the motive for a power grab by one group - or tribe - over another. What's happening in Burma is a good example of this.

You are right... the Church of England was generally set up to benefit Henry VIII's sex drive and wish to divorce Catherine and marry Anne... not because Henry had some Spiritual revelation.

Also Henry was running short on cash, and if he declared the Church of England separate and under his control, then that allowed him to seize all the assets of the Catholic Church, shut down the monastaries and sell their lands and pocket the proceeds. (why there are no monks in Britain)

The general population did want change in how the Churchs in England were run, but Henry's motives were purely selfish.

And yes, depending on whether the ruler preferred the Catholic or Protestant interpretation of Christianity, different groups were burnt at the stake. We all know that Mary I of England, Henry's daughter by Catherine decided to restore Catholicism and thereby burnt large numbers of Church of England members... only to have all of her policies reversed again when Elizabeth I came onto the throne after Mary's death.

[ATAG_Highseas]

You are right... the Church of England was generally set up to benefit Henry VIII's sex drive and wish to divorce Catherine and marry Anne... not because Henry had some Spiritual revelation.

Also Henry was running short on cash, and if he declared the Church of England separate and under his control, then that allowed him to seize all the assets of the Catholic Church, shut down the monastaries and sell their lands and pocket the proceeds. (why there are no monks in Britain)

The general population did want change in how the Churchs in England were run, but Henry's motives were purely selfish.

And yes, depending on whether the ruler preferred the Catholic or Protestant interpretation of Christianity, different groups were burnt at the stake. We all know that Mary I of England, Henry's daughter by Catherine decided to restore Catholicism and thereby burnt large numbers of Church of England members... only to have all of her policies reversed again when Elizabeth I came onto the throne after Mary's death.

Took the kids to the tower of london today. Molly 12 took aone looks at Henry VIIIs armour (with its rather prominent horizontally protruding love bundle protector (and it surly does draw the eye))... And said withbaroll of her eyes... "Man.... SOMEBODY was pretty insecure"

Hahaha.... Funny as hell... !

[farley]

Took the kids to the tower of london today. Molly 12 took aone looks at Henry VIIIs armour (with its rather prominent horizontally protruding love bundle protector (and it surly does draw the eye))... And said withbaroll of her eyes... "Man.... SOMEBODY was pretty insecure"

Hahaha.... Funny as hell... !

Pretty funny Seas.:)

Must get her sense of humour from her mother.........:P

[Perfesser]

Would it be appropriate to put up a cross over a Jewish soldier's grave

Christian, Islam, Jew. It's the same God they're fighting over......