Getting new players into the game

[Michael E.]

Hello, im having trouble finding a good video to show what this game is about to potential new players, every time i tell someone about it people just dismiss it and say "ill just stick to DCS", or some other flight game usually because they dont know what il2 clod is or dont know what it is about.

Thanks

[ATAG_Lewis]

Hi Mike...

Here's my most popular (most views) CLOD vid...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKsFYOU9G4E&t=492s

Failing that...here are the 'Most Viewed' CLOD vid of all time...

To be fair...If none of this wets their appetite I would say you are 'barking up the wrong tree' with them...'You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink'...

Most Watched CLOD Videos (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10582&p=137316)

Good to see folks trying to get the word out...Thanks Mike...Folks like you help us and this sim...~S~

...Lew (cliché Lewis)

[TWC_Fatal_Error]

Send them to twc and let them view the video also Karaya (http://www.twcclan.com/cliffs)or to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCecn5g-qxp5ohtJEXTu121Q his videos are great for german interest

[Michael E.]

Thanks for the responses

[69th_Zeb]

We need to get the guys from the Dirt Rally days over here too. ;)

[JimmyBlonde]

Branch out, get into other sims and join public teamspeak. Make friends and chat about sim stuff, invite squadrons/individuals to a server. Most people who are into this hobby will give anything a go when they're made to weigh their preconceptions against genuine, person to person enthusiasm.

And yeah, videos. Only 2.26 million more views and I will be the new king.

[HurricaneHarvest]

Hello, im having trouble finding a good video to show what this game is about to potential new players, every time i tell someone about it people just dismiss it and say "ill just stick to DCS", or some other flight game usually because they dont know what il2 clod is or dont know what it is about.

Thanks

Many don't know about CLOD so some of us have tried a few things.

ATAG_Pattle ( ooops! :) ) promoted CLOD at his local Cinema while "Dunkirk" was showing, which was popular. Not sure how many new players it attracted? I was considering paying for an advert at my local cinema but got no response .. "if ya gotta ask, you cannot afford it" :D I'm sure others have tried other things too.

I think you have to look at the original IL2 game, why was that successful ??? The quality of CLOD is way above the original. War Thunder and World of War planes , online flight sims, has taken many players. Maybe someone can convince these online players to look at CLOD ??

Sorry ATAG_Pattle
.

[ATAG_Lewis]

Remember this thread?...Some good points in there...

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4913&highlight=people

[ATAG_Highseas]

Prattle promoted CLOD at his local Cinema while "Dunkirk" was showing, which was popular.

Good old Prattle !

Prattling on and on....

:roflmao:

[1lokos]

I think you have to look at the original IL2 game, why was that successful ???


IL-2 "2001" came in different times, just following the "golden age of CFS" at end of 90's:

Air Warrior, Warbirds online "hay days" - Man, we have a ~60 players squadron paying $2/hour to fly Warbirds online in 98/99!!! :stunned:

And many good SP CFS: European Air War, World War Two Fighters, CFS1 and 2... and some "CloD's" :D (released before be ready): Fighter Squadron - SDOE and others I don't remember name - without mentioning many "jets" CFS of the time.

IL-2 "2001" cause impact because are a steep ahead over the previous, presenting a good graphics, a FM and DM (visual) better than any previous games, good customization to run in most computers with 3D VGA of the time - without became a slow motion "Minecraft" as happens with CloD at their release, if player don't have a "high end" computer and even so with no good result due broken state of the game.

Is not need repeat the CloD story, but can resume in "Murphy Law at their best expression".

A phenomenon I observe on Warbirds Online - when their "hay days" end, most of our squadron just move away from CFS scene.

Same happens with another group of IL-2 "2001" after their "hay days" (2001~2005) end, most drop the joystick and go play some "fast food" game.

As rule, the new generations don't have interest in the CFS genre - this WT/WoWp "fly-by-mouse" is just an FPS game but with planes instead M-16 or AK-47, few of this players will move for IL-2's or DCSW, and now are these "Star Wars" games with "photon" weapons attracting people that became interested in fly and shoot something. :D

This is a fight against windmills... but a warrior needs to believe in his fight. :thumbsup:

[Baffin]

Be careful what you ask for.

Anyone interested in a WWII Battle of Britain game will find "Cliffs of Dover" with a cursory internet search. Those who really want to play our game will take the time to read the documentation, manuals, etc., and work through the learning curve of simply getting into the air. A number of players are not interested in all of that which is why weekend missions are crowded with amateurish "Gamers" crashing all over the map, and shooting anything or anyone they see. They have every "Right" to play this way, but most dedicated players would rather they either get serious or go to another server. Having the "Right" doesn't make it "right". :respect:

We are filling up the "Axis vs Allied" (AvA) server at times on most weekends already, with a lot of impact on the technical limits of our server. Using a mass marketing approach to attract more players must be carefully managed to avoid turning ATAG into another "War Thunder". Casual gamers can still use the CLoD engine to fly a number of servers other than AvA so it's not like we're trying to prevent fun seekers from playing. We're just trying to keep it somewhat realistic here at ATAG. :hpyflying:

In my opinion, we have a good advertising balance right now. As TFS continues it's improvements, ATAG may consider other ways to increase capacity and manage the player load. :talk:

[lil_head]

That Prattle bloke had a good idea :)
It's always hard to get people to try another game. They usually have to be interested in that genre to begin with. I will sometimes talk to some of the gaming types at work about some of the stuff I get up to in CLOD, but I cant imagine them sitting in a cockpit. You kinda need to target select audiences for best results, like prattle did. People who play other sims or like realism might be more of a chance. Maybe getting a few shirts made up and get the family to wear it at the local air show? or air museum?
If you look at the age poll somewhere in this forum its a fairly mixed bag. I think most players are between 30 and 60 years old.
We need this game to grow in population if we want it to last a lot longer. Growth means more servers(from all over), more players, more full servers, more videos, more sales(TF5.0) more support and interest in TFS = longevity. If there are a lot of new players, we need to get them on teamspeak and get them operational as soon as possible to keep their interest. If they can't fly properly and don't get the help they need they will go away and tell their mates its no good. If we have an influx of new people on TS we could funnel them into a channel for rookies and some of the vets could drop in to help them out.
Lost count of how many people I've told about CLOD and then being told that they thought that its was all buggy so never bought it. Yeah, in 2011 it was a bit buggy.

[ATAG_Highseas]

Anyone interested in a WWII Battle of Britain game will find "Cliffs of Dover" with a cursory internet search.


True !

and then inevitably those same people will find the ATAG forum, ACG forum and so on, read a bit,and either take a crack at it, or not bother. Whether they stick about is a whole lot more complicated.



But.... just relying on the internet existing doesnt do much to promote a product.

[Kling]

Also would be good to advertise at Flying Legends at Duxford.
To have a tent with two computers connected to each other(with good specs) and a projector outside to show what goes on in there.

[SIA_Sp00k]

My favourite CloD vid here. Great promo material

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6u4JxgE2S4

[Moach]

I'd like to quote Metallica on this subject:

https://youtu.be/Xz9DX_VMXdI?t=239

careful what you wish...
careful what you say...
careful what you wish, you may regret it,
careful what you wish, YOU JUST MIGHT GET IT.


"more players" is not synonymous with "more fun" - In fact, there is a general trend in gaming which upholds that the size of a community is most often inversely proportional to the amount of enjoyment derived from it by its players.


Also, the early IL2s had a larger player base due to expensively conducted product placement campaigns. Back in those days, games were sold in boxes which sat on shelves at a store. It is a well honed science to place things on these shelves in a way that makes them visible and attractive, and also a very costly proposition, possible back then with funds from large publishers which had not yet completely turned towards evil (https://youtu.be/azU20xBPPP4).



Anyways, more players would still be nice to have around here, as long as they are genuinely enthused about the game and not simply trying it out because they saw it in some ad.

The main issue CloD continues to have, which shy many away from becoming more involved, is that of accessibility. There are many "little bugs" which the majority of us have dealt with early on and have since all but forgot about. Yet new players are faced with a daunting wall of minor-to-severe annoyances when starting to play, many of which require coaching through to solution, which is only achieved by the more sociable (and english-capable) players who try.

From a professional PoV, (I do make games for a living, mind you) The game lacks a sensible set of default key bindings, a seemingly trivial nuisance for the lot of us, but a large issue for the uninitiated. This is made more problematic given how most airplanes require individually tailored control bindings. Any players who are more likely to give up first and search through forums later, will almost inevitably do so.

Now again, perhaps this is for the better, as individuals incapable of tolerating even such small tests of patience are hardly the stuff good communities are made of... But it does cause a number of the 'good ones' to give up on it occasionally.

In any case, it would be generally preferable that the game were fitted with usable default settings, both for keys as well as graphics. The current state of things means that without a thorough (and largely more complex than average) initial settings session, the game will be found generally unworkable by any new player.

It would also be tremendously beneficial to have a game that does not all but require owning expensive gear like TrackIR just to be able to enjoy to a minimum degree. The older IL2 series had far more flexible keyboard accessibility for view features. CloD makes head tracker use almost a minimum hardware requirement.

Proof of point: I was able to play IL2:1946 with stick and keys, but once I found CloD I immediately bought TrackIR, having found it generally unworkable without. Back then I was at a point in my life where I could afford this, and I had always wanted one anyways so I took that for an excuse to go and get it. Alas, not all players have that same facility.


Nevertheless, "moar playerz" should not to be taken to necessarily mean "moar funz" - There are many seemingly trivial considerations which have deceivingly massive effects on the quality of a game's playerbase. See the BoX series for instance, a very similar game, with a very different spirit to its community...


I could write a book about it, so complex these interactions can be. Perhaps one way I will.

[LuseKofte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=225&v=Z4v809RkUJI

[LuseKofte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LowDP2uotBY

[LuseKofte]

I think a increased success on BOS series will be affecting increased recruitment to this game, because if you want more, it is here. This is really not a good first simulator kind of game. It take far too much time just getting to the action, and too fast ending up as a burning wreck on ground. It is not easy to join TS and ask for basic advese. It is not easy to survive long enough to learn. At times very frustrating.
There is simply no other way to have a positive expirience than fly with good pilots from first flight online, anything else will drive them away. BOS is a good first simulator game, it also push people with interest to want more, and here is where COD is.

[ATAG_Highseas]

This was my first.

:thumbsup:

[9./JG52 Sturm]

I think a increased success on BOS series will be affecting increased recruitment to this game, because if you want more, it is here. This is really not a good first simulator kind of game. It take far too much time just getting to the action, and too fast ending up as a burning wreck on ground. It is not easy to join TS and ask for basic advese. It is not easy to survive long enough to learn. At times very frustrating.
There is simply no other way to have a positive expirience than fly with good pilots from first flight online, anything else will drive them away. BOS is a good first simulator game, it also push people with interest to want more, and here is where COD is.

BoS has the single player, whereas this doesn't. That's a massive deal. But BoS online is definitely no easier to fly; going on WoL as a noob- good luck... Point to point, Hawkinge to Marquis is barely any distance at all. Plus there's actual identifiable landmarks on the way.

[farley]

BoS has the single player, whereas this doesn't.

I'm not familiar with BOS. What do you mean that it has single player but this doesn't?
CloD has single player, so just not sure what you mean.
What are the differences?

I have prepurchased Bodenplatte so will have a better idea when that is released.

[9./JG52 Sturm]

I'm not familiar with BOS. What do you mean that it has single player but this doesn't?
CloD has single player, so just not sure what you mean.
What are the differences?

I have prepurchased Bodenplatte so will have a better idea when that is released.

As in the AI is pretty passable and the campaigns work. The scripted campaigns, both official and user created, are quite enjoyable. Love cliffs, but not for its single player experience.

[uranor]

As in the AI is pretty passable and the campaigns work. The scripted campaigns, both official and user created, are quite enjoyable. Love cliffs, but not for its single player experience.

I must agree with you on this! Single Player is where most people will start and try the game. The fact that it is so barebone in CloD makes it good only for hardcore fans of the genre. Not likely to grab and hold the attention of someone who is just curious. Imagine you went to a flight school that only gave you these instructions, "Welcome to your first flight. Instructions: here is the plane. Hop-in and have fun. When you crash, try again."
Completely inadequate introduction. There is no gentle step-up, no working campaign, not even a good set of control bindings (switchable per aircraft). Some say that new players should just find a mentor online and go with it; easier said than done in practice, especially if you cannot/would not use teamspeak. Even with a mentor, having a good offline system for incremental training would be useful.
People who like this genre embrace manageable complexity, but need good guidance. The forum and community are good, but in my opinion not enough. SP is the window from which new players will look at the game first. It should be good enough to allow them to transition to MP. I managed to make it all work only because I had the previous experience with IL-2 1946 and just love the genre.

~Uranor

[=FI=Murph]

Look into revising the game's GUI, overall setup instructions and controls list, for a start. There are far too many hoops that a beginning player has to jump through right now just to be able to get into the cockpit and fly, almost all due to non-intuitive and/or badly translated, instructions and interface. Or stuff in the single player side that just plain doesn't work, like training missions.
I recently was helping a friend get going in this game (a LONG time il2 enthusiast and current fan of BOX), and I can't count the number of times I had to tell him. "now I know it says this, but it really means that", or "This feature doesn't really work like you'd expect it to, but there's a workaround"
The folks here at ATAG are extremely helpful, or course, but I can't imagine what it is like for someone who just purchases the game and tries to figure out how to play straight out of the box, with no help or explanations.

[SIA_Sp00k]

There seems to be innumerable Youtube vids out there with helpful instructional vids with everything from how to start a Spit fire to navigating the map.

Perhaps a less resource intensive solution (I do agree about the games GUI and keymapping terms) is to have an area of the ATAG forum (or mirror elsewhere) where the best of these vids could be placed into easily identifiable catergories.

Aircraft

List of aircraft startup procedures etc
How to skin etc
Navigation
Aircraft compass explanations
Maybe maps

Bombing
Instructions, bombing tools etc

Setup
Something on idiosyncrasies of the GUI, terms used etc.

Mission Building

How to's. tips. tricks etc.

Along the lines of the above, then all Newbies and some of us Oldies could be steered to that area. Would make Lews welcome post a lot shorter if nothing else.

[DerDa]

Basically, all necessary information can be found ... somewhere.
The problem is that you have to look for it and many people who try a new game do not want to be bothered with this.
I never even would have tried CloD if not somebody had took my by the hand, dragged me online and explained some things.

So I really think a kind of handbook (quick starter guide) should be included in the download. I remember the old Il2 1946 handbook and it was a great source of information. Also I spent a lot of time with the ingame lists of aircraft with pictures and explanations. Something like this would be of great help,especially for single player types.

But: to produce something like this need a lot of work, dedication and time.
I don't have any doubts about TFS' members dedication, but time certainly will be a major problem.

[rontaila]

Maybe Lewis's famous "New Pilots" thread should be posted on Steam forum, a newcomer has a base of information and with the help of the god Google can study in detail.:goodluck:

[LuseKofte]

Bos is getting "worser and worser" in one way, they have recruited a lot of WT flyers and conduct and gameplay reflect that. WOL is a mess, not reccomended at all for any skill level , except there are no penalty for dying there. But BOS is easier to learn and survive in, everything is faster and somehow easier to grasp, even awareness . The userinterface is slightly easier and frustration takes a bit longer to get. I am not saying any of the games is better or worse, but I am quite sure BOS is easier adaption for a WT pilot than COD is. For good and for bad this simulator have a bit higher climb than BOS.
I am not saying it is impossible to start with this sim, I am saying it is slightly worser than BOS for that purpose. Personally I long for good old squad flying in COD , I have been far too long in BOS only, I just wait to my new PC come along

[ATAG_Highseas]

Maybe Lewis's famous "New Pilots" thread should be posted on Steam forum, a newcomer has a base of information and with the help of the god Google can study in detail.:goodluck:

Nah.. that would take the peronal touch out of it...

and Lewis is a person...

Well.... kind of...

I will be taking more notes during my observations Duxford 2018 and will be publishing my findings in early 2019.

:salute:

[ATAG_Lewis]

Would make Lews welcome post a lot shorter if nothing else.

Ya know how long it took me to make it that big?...and they say size doesn't matter!

Hehe...

[=FI=Murph]

There is also a lot of useful information on the TF wiki page, maybe it could be more prominently linked from some of the other beginners threads here?

[HurricaneHarvest]

The reason I thought avertising on the Cinema infront of "Dunkirk" and "Darkest Hour" might be a good idea was because I think there's a large untapped potential of new players in baby boomers who don't play games, or have serious computers. Most baby-boomers know of the War and the Batte of Britian, many are probably interested in the period. CLOD is a step up in quality from "game" to "Sim" ? "recreation tool" ? This might attract these boomers to upgrade /buy a serious PC to pla ... recreate BOB battles ?

I've had little problem setting up IL2 in the past, My Forcefeedback Joystick worked first time, learning the keys to do the import things takes a bit of time but once memorized, becomes second nature. (A lot easier than WT .. F&*%, trying to setup keys & JS for planes that don't interfere with land unit controls is a nightmare. .. I've given up on WT flight, just use land units )

Jusy a thought ...

[Leifr]

Look into revising the game's GUI, overall setup instructions and controls list, for a start. There are far too many hoops that a beginning player has to jump through right now just to be able to get into the cockpit and fly, almost all due to non-intuitive and/or badly translated, instructions and interface. Or stuff in the single player side that just plain doesn't work, like training missions.
I recently was helping a friend get going in this game (a LONG time il2 enthusiast and current fan of BOX), and I can't count the number of times I had to tell him. "now I know it says this, but it really means that", or "This feature doesn't really work like you'd expect it to, but there's a workaround"
The folks here at ATAG are extremely helpful, or course, but I can't imagine what it is like for someone who just purchases the game and tries to figure out how to play straight out of the box, with no help or explanations.

This, a thousand times over.
Our group flew on a daily basis in most of the SoW campaigns. The flight-group was a smaller sub-section of our larger gaming community; some of the newer pilots I baited in with a free copy of Cliffs but only a couple of them stuck to the game, it's too obtuse to intuitively use. I was hoping that there would be some form of UI overhaul in the update (perhaps TF5?) but I found that it only grew worse with busy images appearing behind tables of text. It's a shame that the interface and end-user experience in Cliffs is so terrible.

We're all in BoX now, even those who bailed on Cliffs. It's accessible enough for the rookie pilot to turn on, jump in and strap up, whilst offering the better pilots a decent simulation. Now we run the newer pilots through the 72 -AG- training server before taking them on to one of the smaller continuous campaign servers (Finnish or Coconut). That opportunity isn't available in Cliffs, in any shape, form or manner.



The reason I thought avertising on the Cinema infront of "Dunkirk" and "Darkest Hour" might be a good idea was because I think there's a large untapped potential of new players in baby boomers who don't play games, or have serious computers. Most baby-boomers know of the War and the Batte of Britian, many are probably interested in the period. CLOD is a step up in quality from "game" to "Sim" ? "recreation tool" ? This might attract these boomers to upgrade /buy a serious PC to pla ... recreate BOB battles ?

I've had little problem setting up IL2 in the past, My Forcefeedback Joystick worked first time, learning the keys to do the import things takes a bit of time but once memorized, becomes second nature. (A lot easier than WT .. F&*%, trying to setup keys & JS for planes that don't interfere with land unit controls is a nightmare. .. I've given up on WT flight, just use land units )

Jusy a thought ...

You'll be lucky to entice anyone in to the PC simulation field now. GPU prices are ridiculously high (thanks crypto-currency!), and really don't offer much incentive to get in to the hobby. Assuming you have a desktop PC that is used for email and office work, would you really consider dumping £1000+ for a game that you might like? It would be better to entice folk in to something like War Thunder first. Aircraft simulation games will always remain a niche market. All that said, it's a little late now for jumping on the nostalgia of British colonialism. Dunkirk is old news and Darkest Hour is dropping down the box office ticket sales almost as quickly as Cliffs is dropping down the Steam charts. :stunned:

[BlackTop]

.

All that said, it's a little late now for jumping on the nostalgia of British colonialism. :ot:

How does this have any relevance to this thread.

Your political views are your own and have no place here.

Why not go and impress your SoW forum mates. There are plenty of self opinionated people over there!

[ATAG_Snapper]

:ot:

How does this have any relevance to this thread.

Your political views are your own and have no place here.

Why not go and impress your SoW forum mates. There are plenty of self opinionated people over there!


Good catch.

In view that Leifr no longer plays Cliffs of Dover by his own admission and his recent posts have been negative towards this sim, I believe he would be better off contributing elsewhere. Certainly this forum will be.

:salute: