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Cybermat47
Apr-08-2018, 04:36
From the invasion of Poland to the defeat of France, the Bf-110 was the terror of European skies, sweeping away the air forces of Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium with ease. On one memorable occasion, I./ZG 1 destroyed a Danish force of 10 reconnaisance aircraft and 24 Fokker D.XXIs without a single Danish aircraft finishing it’s takeoff.

However, in the Battle of Britain, the Destroyer Groups began to suffer immense losses. On the 13th of August, 14 Bf-110s were lost, with another 106, over a third of active 110s, being lost in the entire month. September was little better, with 9 110s destroyed on the 2nd and the 11th, 16 machines on the 4th, and 19 on the 27th. October saw fewer losses, but this was mainly due to reduced Zerstörer activity - when II. and III./ZG 26 sortied on the 7th, they lost a further 7 aircraft. Losses had been so heavy that the entirety of ZG 2 was disbanded.

The pilots flying the Bf-110 were by no means inexperienced. Many were already aces. Yet, forced to escort bombers in the face of modern fighter opposition, their experience counted for little.

But, I was wondering, did Bf-110 fighters have more success in the BoB during freijagd missions, where they weren’t forced to keep pace with the bombers, and could fly at higher altitudes?

HurricaneHarvest
Apr-08-2018, 05:11
I've also thought the same thing. Early in the Battle, 110 & 109 combinations attacked coastal targets in "free hunts", flying low below radar, great for sneak attack and runs .. yet I've never heard how successful they were, and why were they stopped ? to protect bombers ?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Apr-08-2018, 05:16
Yes, the Bf-110s did have more success when flown as fighters in Freijagd or Bomber Escort role.

Basically the 110s did have an advantage over the Hurricanes in performance over approx. 22,000 ft/6500 m... and so if the 110's came in high over the bombers and did dive and zoom attacks on the Hurricanes, they were able to be relatively successful.

Against the Spitfires, this was not as successful, the Spitfires high altitude performance was generally comparable or better than the 110s. But of course, 3/5's of the British fighter force were Hurricanes. But the focus of even Spitfires were the German bombers, so a carefully placed group of high 110's could inflict damage.

Where the 110's suffered their biggest losses was in low level ground attack missions... the Hurricane was faster than the 110 under approx. 9000 ft/2800 m.

After the BoB and with the large scale coming into service of the Spit II's and especially with the advent of the Spit V's with cannon the 110 became essentially obsolescent in fighter vs fighter combat.

Of course, everything is pilot dependent, a really good 110 pilot or especially a really good group of 110's versus novice British pilots can do well.

Oh by the way... versus the Poles, the 110's did not always have things their way. There were instances when they suffered large losses in low level fights, even versus the completely obsolete Polish Pzl's.

Prior to the BoB the 110 pilots were considered the elite of the Jagdfliegers... Goering spoiled them with attention and lots of medals.

And one other thing... the rear gunner on the human flown 110 is still not right... they should be more effective.

We will be releasing a 'multiplayer' beta version of the game to more properly reflect this... the current 4.53 version gunner effectiveness is tailored to the single player crowd. Servers and players will be able to install this at their option.




From the invasion of Poland to the defeat of France, the Bf-110 was the terror of European skies, sweeping away the air forces of Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium with ease. On one memorable occasion, I./ZG 1 destroyed a Danish force of 10 reconnaisance aircraft and 24 Fokker D.XXIs without a single Danish aircraft finishing it’s takeoff.

However, in the Battle of Britain, the Destroyer Groups began to suffer immense losses. On the 13th of August, 14 Bf-110s were lost, with another 106, over a third of active 110s, being lost in the entire month. September was little better, with 9 110s destroyed on the 2nd and the 11th, 16 machines on the 4th, and 19 on the 27th. October saw fewer losses, but this was mainly due to reduced Zerstörer activity - when II. and III./ZG 26 sortied on the 7th, they lost a further 7 aircraft. Losses had been so heavy that the entirety of ZG 2 was disbanded.

The pilots flying the Bf-110 were by no means inexperienced. Many were already aces. Yet, forced to escort bombers in the face of modern fighter opposition, their experience counted for little.

But, I was wondering, did Bf-110 fighters have more success in the BoB during freijagd missions, where they weren’t forced to keep pace with the bombers, and could fly at higher altitudes?

Cassius
Apr-08-2018, 10:41
The latest sentences sound revolutionary :)

LuseKofte
Apr-08-2018, 12:30
I read that 110 losses was not greater than 109 losses compared to actions they took part in, but the 110 had high expectations , was very expensive to build and its pilots was regarded "elite" . Losses also consisted of a squadron that was blown away from the squad equipped with the pyrotechnical challenged plywood non droppable external tank. They where virtual stripped of their maneuverability in this configurations. Also by the time they were attacked these tank consisted of highly explosive fumes, empty as they where. All this in consideration they where pulled out of the Battle.
It was not a bad plane, just not as good as expected, I think only the supercharged P 38 and Mossie went beyond expectation in two engined piston powered aircraft.
The 110 as a night fighter was also not as good at it as we might believe, the radar antennas applied on them made their controls very sluggish. A corkscrewing Lancaster out maneuvered them. Eric Brown said the 110 was a better day fighter than the Beufighter, but worser in night fighter configuration

Karaya
Apr-09-2018, 08:32
Bf110 losses during the BoB only really started to rise dramatically when the escorts were tied to the bombers. That already posed a serious problem for the Bf109s which were robbed of any initiative (leading to the famous words of Galland who demanded a flight of Spitfire to do what was asked of him) but was even more critical for the less agile and slower Bf110.

Btw the favoritism of Goering towards the Zerstörer, amongst other things, manifested itself in the Bf110s getting priority on DB601N engine deliveries prior to the service introduction of the Bf109F.

Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders
Apr-09-2018, 12:40
Well replying with precision and detail to your question will probably require a couple of days of discussion but trying to give you a brief reply to it ( said very in general ) these are my thoughts about the Bf 110 performances\ losses in the BoB:

1- The losses were heavy also for a less known fact that normally is not taken into the correct consideration, in my opinion.

Especially at the beginning of the BoB there were more 110s " combat ready " than Bf 109s...so that's why the losses were also heavy at the beginning of the operation for the 110s...because they flew more often than the Bf 109s initially ! ( in relation to their numbers )

The 109s were more in numbers ( about 1107 on June 1940 against about 357 Bf 110s ) but lots of them were not " combat ready ".
Here, for example, about the Bf 109s, is interesting to note that in the period between May - June 1940 there were more aircraft damaged due to incidents or damages not depending to enemy actions ( 92 damaged + 66 totally destroyed = 148 ) than aircraft shoot down due to enemy action ( 33 ).

2- OKL used them in close bomber escort instead of leaving them free of acting. The 110 was out of doubt less maneuverable of the main RAF fighters of the era ( Hurricane and Spitfire ) and inferior about certain performances but it was not in disadvantage under all the circumstances...providing also the RAF pilots the advantage of the initiative was, in my opinion, a great and decisive mistake.
An elephant running is a powerful beast but if you rope it to a tree without the chance of moving freely...

3- There is the diffused " mith " that the RAF won the BoB being far superior and having far superior aircraft in respect to the LW and by shooting down German fighter planes as if they were a band of stupids pilots waiting to be shoot down by the RAF pilot of turn ( speaking purely of fighters vs fighters ).
In my opinion the pure aircraft battle itself ( speaking of fighters vs fighters ) was a draw due to the fact that both the parts involved were not able to gain the upper hand on the other ( again, speaking purely of fighters vs fighters ).
The " mith " tells also that the Bf 110 was the " sacrificial victim " of the battle but if you look well and more deeply at the LW-RAF losses, books and information available around about the month of interest you will notice it was not completely so.

4* ( Not related to the 110 losses discussion but I haven't resisted , sorry :) ): What we have in the game seems to be still a flying brick, with appalling performances and characteristics, not anything close to a " real " Bf 110 unfortunately despite the TFS work about it... ( but let's hope and be confident in Odin...maybe one day... ).
Speaking only of Bf 110 against enemy fighters, in the game, actually it's pretty much like trying to have a dogfight between a paper aircraft and a Tiger tank...( where unfortunately the Tiger tank is a RAF aircraft... ).
Frankly said and speaking only of 110s against enemy fighters the actual " Blitz " patch seems to be more a downgrade than an upgrade...but as said lets hope that in the next future something will change about this...

What let the RAF " won " the BoB were other factors. ( that I will not discuss here to not go OT )

uranor
Apr-09-2018, 12:57
Bf110 losses during the BoB only really started to rise dramatically when the escorts were tied to the bombers. That already posed a serious problem for the Bf109s which were robbed of any initiative (leading to the famous words of Galland who demanded a flight of Spitfire to do what was asked of him) but was even more critical for the less agile and slower Bf110.

Btw the favoritism of Goering towards the Zerstörer, amongst other things, manifested itself in the Bf110s getting priority on DB601N engine deliveries prior to the service introduction of the Bf109F.

Karaya you pointed out a very interesting historical fact, which I have noted too by reading Galland's book "The First and the Last." He is often misquoted for "demanding a squadron of Spitfires," with the implication that the Spitfire was a better airplane. That is not at all what Galland says in the book; the context of the sentence was in fact related to allowing the 109 pilots to play to the strength of their aircraft, which is an Energy Fighter. In the context Galland really says to Goering [If you want us to fly close to the bombers, and thus eventually be engaged in a turn-fight - (my summary)] "then give us a squadron of Spitfires."

~Uranor

DerDa
Apr-09-2018, 15:28
Well, that's at least what Galland wrote much later in his book.
He had quite a habit of saying things that could bring him into trouble or sometimes where very cynical.
Some of these quotes became known and circulated among pilots, making him much less popular than he wanted to be. He wrote this book when he was in Argentinia, pretty frustrated that he was not allowed to play a major role in the new Luftwaffe of the Federal Republic of Germany (because of his 'political views').
In his book he tried to explain some of these quotes, putting them into a perspective that showed him in a more favourtable light.

What he really meant at the time, when he said those things or if he just had a problem to keep his mouth shut, we will never know.

uranor
Apr-09-2018, 18:45
Well, that's at least what Galland wrote much later in his book.
He had quite a habit of saying things that could bring him into trouble or sometimes where very cynical.
Some of these quotes became known and circulated among pilots, making him much less popular than he wanted to be. He wrote this book when he was in Argentinia, pretty frustrated that he was not allowed to play a major role in the new Luftwaffe of the Federal Republic of Germany (because of his 'political views').
In his book he tried to explain some of these quotes, putting them into a perspective that showed him in a more favourtable light.

What he really meant at the time, when he said those things or if he just had a problem to keep his mouth shut, we will never know.

Absolutely, I agree with your comments. We will never know the truth, especially because politics was involved. Considering his role and his success as a pilot, I cannot imagine how he could have truly wanted to imply that the (then) enemy had a better fighter plane. In that context, his later explanation makes sense to me. It is also a bit more technical, so I can easily see how the finer points of the arguments could be mis-interpreted by the public (and media) who do not often care to learn all the context. Regardless of opinions, the argument is rational: asking 109s to follow the bombers closely, denies them their chief advantages and was a tactical mistake.

1lokos
Apr-09-2018, 20:52
The more costly day for Zerstorers in BoB was September, 4.

They are escorting... Bf 110 fighter bombers of Erp.210 (that use Bf 110 in an correctly/effective role: attack aircraft).

Erp.210 lost their new leader, who crash on sea supposedly maneuvering under attack.

ZG76 and V/LG1 lost 16 Bf 110.

That day Bf 109s flew only one escort mission - for bombers, and got 3 Spitfires.

RAF lost 17 planes - perhapes some for Bf 110s (although in a mount period - 10/8-11/9, bombers gunners score twice than Bf 110). Luftwaffe lost 28 planes in September, 4.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Apr-10-2018, 00:28
4* ( Not related to the 110 losses discussion but I haven't resisted , sorry :) ): What we have in the game seems to be still a flying brick, with appalling performances and characteristics, not anything close to a " real " Bf 110 unfortunately despite the TFS work about it... ( but let's hope and be confident in Odin...maybe one day... ).
Speaking only of Bf 110 against enemy fighters, in the game, actually it's pretty much like trying to have a dogfight between a paper aircraft and a Tiger tank...( where unfortunately the Tiger tank is a RAF aircraft... ).
Frankly said and speaking only of 110s against enemy fighters the actual " Blitz " patch seems to be more a downgrade than an upgrade...but as said lets hope that in the next future something will change about this...

What let the RAF " won " the BoB were other factors. ( that I will not discuss here to not go OT )

Sorry, as someone who has created and tested the Bf-110 versions in TF 4.312 and in 4.5 extensively, I completely disagree.

The Bf-110 is a much better aircraft in 4.5... more capable in combat... turns better, retains energy better, etc.

And it is not being under-rated... not at all. So don't hold out hope your favourite aircraft will suddenly become a world beater... the Bf-110 was not capable of going 1-1 against single engined types... historical losses and the performance facts prove that.

Twin engined fighters were just not competitive against single engined types... this applies across the spectrum... even the P-38, which was the best example of a twin engined design was not really up to the standard... it did well in the Pacific, because the Japanese fighter aircraft were quite slow, but in Europe, the kill/loss record shows it was not up to dealing with German single engined types.

The only justifiable complaint against the game version is the AI gunners in the Human flown Bf-110 are ineffective... and this will be addressed later by giving players an optional 'multiplayer' version Beta with improved human flown AI which multiplayer servers and players can install. The current 4.5 human flown AI was set as result of numerous complaints from the single-player community who felt the gunners were too effective.

Karaya
Apr-10-2018, 03:09
So far imo the Bf110 in Blitz is an improvement on the old 4.312 aircraft in pretty much every respect. It's faster on the deck, handles much nicer on takeoff, especially with a bomb load, and doesnt bleed off speed in turns like a Stuka with its divebrakes out. When coming up against Hurricanes in a C-4/N I always feel confident knowing that I can outdive them and (maybe not outrun them but) keep them at a distance even on sea level with the rads sufficiently closed.

DerDa
Apr-10-2018, 04:53
So far imo the Bf110 in Blitz is an improvement on the old 4.312 aircraft in pretty much every respect. It's faster on the deck, handles much nicer on takeoff, especially with a bomb load, and doesnt bleed off speed in turns like a Stuka with its divebrakes out. When coming up against Hurricanes in a C-4/N I always feel confident knowing that I can outdive them and (maybe not outrun them but) keep them at a distance even on sea level with the rads sufficiently closed.

I absolutely agree. Pre-Blitz it was nice to catch a 110 low with a Hurricane (Ezzie coming down from space like a thunderbolt naturally was different thing). Now it feels much more difficult to keep up with them and Hurries in general have a hard time.

rel4y
Apr-10-2018, 05:30
We will be releasing a 'multiplayer' beta version of the game to more properly reflect this... the current 4.53 version gunner effectiveness is tailored to the single player crowd. Servers and players will be able to install this at their option.

Why not make it a server console command?

Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders
Apr-10-2018, 05:32
Sorry, as someone who has created and tested the Bf-110 versions in TF 4.312 and in 4.5 extensively, I completely disagree.

The Bf-110 is a much better aircraft in 4.5... more capable in combat... turns better, retains energy better, etc.

And it is not being under-rated... not at all. So don't hold out hope your favourite aircraft will suddenly become a world beater... the Bf-110 was not capable of going 1-1 against single engined types... historical losses and the performance facts prove that.

Twin engined fighters were just not competitive against single engined types... this applies across the spectrum... even the P-38, which was the best example of a twin engined design was not really up to the standard... it did well in the Pacific, because the Japanese fighter aircraft were quite slow, but in Europe, the kill/loss record shows it was not up to dealing with German single engined types.

The only justifiable complaint against the game version is the AI gunners in the Human flown Bf-110 are ineffective... and this will be addressed later by giving players an optional 'multiplayer' version Beta with improved human flown AI which multiplayer servers and players can install. The current 4.5 human flown AI was set as result of numerous complaints from the single-player community who felt the gunners were too effective.


I will reply to your statements via PM because otherwise, if I reply here indicating what is wrong with the in-game Bf 110 , we will go a long way off-topic.

Karaya
Apr-10-2018, 05:33
Why not make it a server console command?

Because that clearly cannot be done? This is not some sort of script that you can just fool around with, this is hardcoded in the game.

rel4y
Apr-10-2018, 06:09
Because that clearly cannot be done? This is not some sort of script that you can just fool around with, this is hardcoded in the game.

Everyhing can be done. With the source code TF can recompile dlls and Id hazard a guess that the AI code is in the maddox.dll.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Apr-10-2018, 06:37
I will give a brief explanation of why the Bf-110, (and pretty much any other twin engine fighter) will be inferior to a single engine type in maneuverability and energy retention.

I will use as my comparison the Bf-109E, because it uses the same engine type, and in fact even the same aerofoil type as the 110C.

The wingloading, i.e. the amount of weight carried per designated area of wing happens to be almost identical in both aircraft, approx. 32 lbs per Square foot. (Spitfire is around 24 lbs per sq/ft) Wingloading is a useful number in understanding how much lift is available when compared to the load carried. Of course, it is not that simple, the design of the aerofoil also affects how much lift is generated at a given angle of attack.

The Bf-110's aerofoil, although the same design, is actually thicker, with a 18.5 thickness ratio at its thickest, compared to the 109E's 14.2 ratio. (Spitfire has a 13% thickness ratio)

What does the extra thickness do? In this case, it provides more stability in lift at higher angles of attack... typically larger heavier aircraft have a higher thickness ratio because you want more stability in a larger aircraft when adding elevator and angle of attack, recovering from a stall in a larger heavier plane is not as easy as a lighter one... you want the stall to be postponed.

But the thickness does have a disadvantage. In most situations, the thicker aerofoil causes more drag... which reduces maximum top speed and causes the aircraft to bleed energy and speed more rapidly than an aircraft with a thinner aerofoil profile.

The other disadvantage the Bf-110 has is a much wider wingspan and greater wing area... 53. ft 5 inch wingspan versus 32 ft six inches for the 109. (Spitfire has a wingspan of 37 ft) A wider wingspan reduces rollrate, the ailerons are fighting against the leverage of the additional span. Wing area is also much greater on the 110, 414 sq/ft compared to 174 sq/ft of the 109E. Again, the ailerons have to work to move this larger wing area.

To add to the rollrate disadvantage the Bf-110 suffers from larger wing area and wingspan, you have the additional disadvantage of the engines being placed in the wings. The 109E engine is centrally placed, lateral motion rotates around this stable mass, the ailerons do not have to move it... but in the case the 110, you have all the mass of the engines placed in the wings... the inertia of this mass must be overcome by the forces generated by the aileron deflection... which means the aircraft is even more sluggish. This was a consistent problem with all the twin engined types... the P-38 introduced power assisted ailerons to counter this factor, but the power assist was only really effective at higher speeds, not at low speeds.

Then we move onto powerloading... Bf-109E-3 weighs approx. 5600 lbs, and is propelled, (in the case of the standard E-3, by a 1100 PS engine. This gives a powerloading of 5.09 pounds per PS. The Bf 110C-2 weighs approx. 14,300 lbs, and has an available max hp of 2200 PS.... that is a powerloading of 6.53 lbs per PS... 28% worse than the 109.

Add to this disadvantage you have the fact the Bf-110 is a much larger aircraft. The total flat plate area, i.e. the area calculated as if the aircraft's total drag was a flat piece of metal perpendicular to the airstream, is much greater than the 109 because of the much larger wingspan and greater body size of the 110. This means there is much more drag and and energy and speed bleeds off much more quickly.

All of the above reasons are why the Bf-110 is overall inferior in any 1-1 dogfight situation with a single engine type.

Why build twin engine heavy fighters with all these disadvantages?

- larger airframe allows more fuel to be carried... better endurance and range

- larger airframe allows heavier air to air weapons to be carried and placed centrally in the fuselage for maximum effect

- 2nd crewmember can provide navigational assistance, rear gun protection, and in the case of nightfighters, someone to operate the onboard radar

- additional hp from 2nd engine allows more air to ground weapons to be carried... improved effectiveness in the ground attack role

There was a place for twin engined 'heavy fighters', but after the BoB, it wasn't in the daylight role where the chance of encountering enemy single engine types was high.

Karaya
Apr-10-2018, 10:27
Everyhing can be done. With the source code TF can recompile dlls and Id hazard a guess that the AI code is in the maddox.dll.

But why would you want it in the console? A realism option that can be toggled for example would be more handy for single players and server operators imo.

rel4y
Apr-10-2018, 10:41
But why would you want it in the console? A realism option that can be toggled for example would be more handy for single players and server operators imo.

So that server admins who know what they are doing can switch AI level, while little SP noobies dont mess with the setting and afterwards are upset that the AI is tearing them apart.

uranor
Apr-10-2018, 14:35
So that server admins who know what they are doing can switch AI level, while little SP noobies dont mess with the setting and afterwards are upset that the AI is tearing them apart.

My view of the issue is that the current approach (two separate AI settings for SP and MP) is only a temporary workaround. In the long term a comprehensive AI solution should be developed, if feasible. It may not be feasible given resources available; I do not know. The main problem of the AI gunners is that they hit critical components of the aircraft with Jedi aim (at higher ability settings) and cannot hit the broadside of a barn at lower levels. The obvious middle-ground approach may be more complicated to achieve than it appears: there are bound to be several factors and parameters that affect how well AI gunners behave, which may lead to instability (achievable points are either "too good" or "too bad"). Then, one has to look at performance, syncing in multiplayer, etc. - All this is my speculation. I do not know the details; I just observe the results.

However, it is not a simple matter of newbies vs. "experten." I consistently notice "experten," from both sides, on the ATAG server ignoring AI raids because they too are consistently shreded apart by the AI gunners in a formation (this is from live conversation on TeamSpeak). Plus, in multiplayer one often lacks the numbers to attack and saturate the AI formations with targets; if 6 bombers focus defensive fire on the one or two poor fools that try to attack, they will shred them. In Single Player, a similar problem is due to the fact that the AI wingmen are pretty useless and get shot down at absurd rates compared to history.

On a side note: Little SP Newbies are also the people that we would like to be able to enjoy the simulation so they can eventually join the fun with the Great Decorated MP Pilots. Any help we can give to someone who is even interested in this gaming genre should be pursued. I would invite you to try some SP too; you can explore historical situations and numbers that you cannot (easily) do in MP.

~Uranor

Karaya
Apr-10-2018, 15:10
So that server admins who know what they are doing can switch AI level, while little SP noobies dont mess with the setting and afterwards are upset that the AI is tearing them apart.

That is quite condescending towards a large yet mostly silent part of the player base. Elitism certainly does not help consolidate and grow a community.

rel4y
Apr-10-2018, 15:46
That is quite condescending towards a large yet mostly silent part of the player base. Elitism certainly does not help consolidate and grow a community.

I think the wink in that statement almost poke both of your eyes out, but even if not I wouldnt care because nowadays anyone is offended by anything. And it is in essence pretty much how such a short term fix will play out if openly accessible.

I blame the crazy amounts of estrogen in groundwater nowadays. WINK

uranor
Apr-10-2018, 15:52
I think the wink in that statement almost poke both of your eyes out, but even if not I wouldnt care because nowadays anyone is offended by anything. And it is in essence pretty much how such a short term fix will play out if openly accessible.

If you meant a wink, it might have been better to use an emoticon to that effect. It is very easy to misinterpret written communications precisely for the lack of visual cues. I should know: I am Italian and therefore half of my radio communications happens by hand-gesture, hence nobody understands me :)

1lokos
Apr-10-2018, 17:00
I Losses also consisted of a squadron that was blown away from the squad equipped with the pyrotechnical challenged plywood non droppable external tank. They where virtual stripped of their maneuverability in this configurations. Also by the time they were attacked these tank consisted of highly explosive fumes, empty as they where.

In BoB this is more a exception, happens when Luftflotte 5 attack North of England (15/08), coming from Norway and Denmark and meet a strong RAF opposition - Germans think that all "last" RAF fighters are in the South.

Bf 110 escorts have to use the Dackelbauch (https://www.flying-tigers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/bf1-Messerschmitt-Bf-110-D-Dackelbauch-with-900-l-drop-tanks-Stavanger-Norway-960x576.jpg) non jettisonable belly tanks to have the range for the task and lost 7 of their 34 planes (20%). This kind of raid was not attempt again.

This version was intended for use against merchant ships in North Sea, not as escorts.

The most successful K/D of Zerstorer's in BoB was over 'Booty' convoy (11/08) when they (supposedly) shoot down 3 RAF fighters and damage more 3, by the lost of 4 of themselves (2 escorts of ZG.26 and 2 attackers from Erp.210).

Karaya
Apr-10-2018, 17:21
If you meant a wink, it might have been better to use an emoticon to that effect. It is very easy to misinterpret written communications precisely for the lack of visual cues. I should know: I am Italian and therefore half of my radio communications happens by hand-gesture, hence nobody understands me :)

This! :thumbsup:

If you're not clearly marking your forum post as sarcasm dont be surprised if its contents are taken at face value, especially by people who barely know you.

Anyways, going back to the discussion at hand, it will be interesting to see how this discrepancy between online & offline AI can be solved. I'm sure the team will come up with something that pleases both camps.

Arthursmedley
Apr-10-2018, 18:14
It is very easy to misinterpret written communications precisely for the lack of visual cues. I should know: I am Italian and therefore half of my radio communications happens by hand-gesture, hence nobody understands me :)



Brilliant! :)

Stig1207
Apr-17-2018, 01:08
Danish force of 10 reconnaisance aircraft and 24 Fokker D.XXIs without a single Danish aircraft finishing it’s takeoff.

The Danish airforce was no where near that 'formidible' in April 1940. There were only 12 Fokker D. XX1's, and one was shot down taking off on a reconnaissance mission and the rest destroyed on the ground.

Cybermat47
Apr-17-2018, 03:11
The Danish airforce was no where near that 'formidible' in April 1940. There were only 12 Fokker D. XX1's, and one was shot down taking off on a reconnaissance mission and the rest destroyed on the ground.

I’m just going by what Wolfgang Falck recalled about his attack on a Danish airbase.