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ATAG_TCP
May-25-2019, 04:31
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Welcome pilots, air gunners, and bombardiers!

We have our first Bomber Command event coming up, one week from our next Tiger Moth Shoot-up! Join us on Team Speak on the 8th of June, 2030 GMT (Time may be adjusted in future, but for the nature of the first event it would be good to have a little extra time)

The first Bomber Command event will be training for pilots/bombardiers, currently in the Blenheim MK IV Late. The core of our first training event will be familiarisation, formation flying and air navigation. Depending on time we will hopefully get on to working with the good ol' MK IX Course-setting Bomb site.
This I do say as I am not entirely sure what the time frame will look like for the training, but the first event will also be serving as a bit of a test to see how it will work. ;)

Don't be put off by the navigation component if you aren't too numbers savvy, as it will be the basic principles and perhaps a little on how to draw up a rudimentary "route plan."

In regards to formation flying we will hopefully be able to cover three different kinds of formation flying; Line Abreast, Single file, and a defensive formation which I would like to test and/or grab some input on :)


For pilots a joystick is preferable, but if anyone would like to come along and watch (stick or not) we will have some empty turrets for all who wish to come for a ride, so long as you behave yourselves ;)

Old timers are absolutely welcome, along with their input from experience!

Anyone who wishes to join as a pilot (pilots will be doubling as bombardiers for this event so that we can all get full circle training) simply post a salute in this thread and we will put you down (Spectators can mention as such in their post) :D

Input from all is welcome in this forum post for suggestions and/or queries. :)

Please come prepared with your controls bound.
Here is a list of necessary bindings with my suggestion for the bind, you do not have to use my suggestion, but please have the functions bound.
wheel chocks toggle - shift C
Change crew position - C (or if easier bind specific keys for pilot and bombardier)
Lean to gunsight - middle mouse
Engine #1 select - 1
Engine #2 select - 2
All engines select - 0
Toggle selected engine (ignition) - I
Open radiator - Shift R
Close radiator - Control R
Prop pitch + W
Prop pitch - S
Elevator trim
Rudder trim
Elevator trim reset
Rudder trim reset
(I use num pad for my trim keys)
Sight altitude increase - +
Sight altitude decrease - -
Sight velocity increase
Sight velocity decrease
Adjust sight left
Adjust sight right

Don't be too concerned if you are new even to Cliffs, just give it a crack setting it up, and if you miss something or can't find a binding, check up with us when we start the event and we can offer a hand ;)

:salute:

Kayo
May-25-2019, 04:54
Very good initiative, thanks!
I will try to join some training session in the future, not sure if I can make it on the 8th though. Guess my Commander in chief at home has already other plans for me...

ATAG_Noofy
May-25-2019, 05:51
Aye :salute:

Question: for those wishing to learn how to fly LW planes, is it possible to join in a Ju88 or He111?
We could take off from same base or rdv somewhere (good exercise too) and go together to bomb destination in one formation or two separate ones if speeds are not compatible/synchronizable (I don’t see why they would not).

Could be extra work for the trainers I know, but this would avoid having to organize two different events...

ATAG_TCP
May-25-2019, 06:15
Top stuff!

Will have a chat with Wukits about it, however this would somewhat break up the training itself :/
We will also be using the open Allies VS Axis server for the event, so spawning on either side of the channel and then linking up would take up a lot of the time.
Depending on the numbers interested, it may be practical to organise two different events for each air force. Perhaps coming together once every so often for a full on comp.

DerDa
May-25-2019, 07:21
Aye :salute:

Question: for those wishing to learn how to fly LW planes, is it possible to join in a Ju88 or He111?
We could take off from same base or rdv somewhere (good exercise too) and go together to bomb destination in one formation or two separate ones if speeds are not compatible/synchronizable (I don’t see why they would not).

Could be extra work for the trainers I know, but this would avoid having to organize two different events...

Might be difficult to convince the AI gunners not to shoot at each other :P

ATAG_Noofy
May-25-2019, 07:21
Top stuff!

Will have a chat with Wukits about it, however this would somewhat break up the training itself :/
We will also be using the open Allies VS Axis server for the event, so spawning on either side of the channel and then linking up would take up a lot of the time.
Depending on the numbers interested, it may be practical to organize two different events for each air force. Perhaps coming together once every so often for a full on comp.

Sure. I understand.

Again the intention here is to simplify things. Navigation techniques is the same regardless of whatever bomber you fly. The difference will be in the instruments (where they are located, how to manipulate them, how to interpret them, etc.). Not to mention the key binding, etc. unless we can use the same key bindings for all types of planes, I have no idea...

So my suggestion was to avoid to the LW pilots/bombers the extra burden of having to re-learn all of the above.

Also, is using the open ATAG server the best setup for first sessions? This is an open door to being strafed on the ground before even taking off, or after takeoff before even having a chance to put in practice all the stuff you would have learned. Unless the plan is to also have fighter escorts that would protect the airfield while the training session takes place on the ground, then the bombers while in the air?

After all this is probably how it was in real life, except that such event would have been kept secret and certainly not publicized on an open forum read by the enemy :D

Anyway these are just suggestions. I'll go with whatever the organizers deem makes sense.

And feel free to involve me if needed. I will be of no added value in setting the planes up nor controlling them on the ground or in the air. Yet... However I can help with navigation, map reading, route planning, calculation techniques, etc.

I still need to figure out to what extend atmospheric pressure, temperatures and winds at various altitudes are modeled in CLoD/the server/the mission. Normally all these parameters are variable, depend on current and predicted weather conditions, and change over time.

These parameters need to be known in advance or otherwise estimated as accurately as possible, and included in the calculations of true air speed, drift, atmospheric altitude, etc. while planning the bomb run. It does not end there, and regular measurements need be taken en-route to confirm assumptions and adjust parameters as time passes. This is done by comparing landmarks below with map readings and/or radio navigation if available, plotting real position with planned and/or estimated position, interpreting the differences, and re-adjusting flight plan and bomb-sight parameters accordingly.

There are many other things that would normally also be taken into consideration such as fuel consumption and derive the max weight load, set points of no return, plan for alternate airfields, etc. etc.

Nowadays GPS and flight computers take care of all this, but in the good old WWII days all navigators had were the above information, their maps, a pencil, a slide-ruler, and their luck charm... Later came tools such as the E6B which was still widely used until the late 90's.

This may be an overkill as I assume this is not implemented to that extend of complexity. But it may well be in future versions. Or people may just want to learn all that stuff for the fun of it, of true immersion in the life of a virtual WWII navigator.

ATAG_Noofy
May-25-2019, 07:27
Might be difficult to convince the AI gunners not to shoot at each other :P

Unless you take off with empty guns...

Again, this only makes sense if the sole purpose is to initially learn navigation and bombing techniques. Aerial combat / gunnery can be part of a separate cursus once the essentials are acquired.

ATAG_TCP
May-25-2019, 07:41
Some good info there Noofy!

Been thinking of air nav from a more basic perspective, not pinpoint acuracy ;)
If you can ground crawl reasonably acurately then you have a good base to go off of.
The actual bombing side of things I will be getting much more input from those of you who are familiar with it in sim.
Also as it is Bomber Command training with the Brits pre heavy bombers, we will probably be looking at single file bombings at roughly 2000ft.
As was the tactic of daylight raids, especially from the light and mediums ;)

In regards to the server Wukits has suggested the public one, as the private would be more handy, but is the TFS server used for the moth events. Getting close to final testings potentially :) TFS will naturally need this server for more intense testing purposes ;)

We can see what can be done in the next two weeks, but it will probably be public.
First mission would likely be kept in Britain ;)

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-25-2019, 10:34
Sure. I understand.

Again the intention here is to simplify things. Navigation techniques is the same regardless of whatever bomber you fly. The difference will be in the instruments (where they are located, how to manipulate them, how to interpret them, etc.).

I agree, no matter which side you like and fly, Training in the Blenheim will transition to any plane. For the sake of training/formation flying etc, it would be best to stick with one aircraft.


As for the bombing and bomb sight difference. Most of the keys are the same, and after I wouldn't mind sticking around after, or making time to go over the difference. Just keep in mind that I'm learning this stuff rather recently, and will do my best to convey what I am learning.




I would say that it may be good to have a prerequisite of having your keys bound for multi engine aircraft prior to the event. I can easily see the event being nothing more than a tech support for those who have not bound their equipment. To avoid this, perhaps we should put a discussion on here on what keys should be bound, or a theory of what to bind and why.

Example:
One of the first things I have done is removed the Throttle axis binding, and in its place I have bound Engine #1 and Engine #2.
The reason for this is that I have a dual throttle control, and if you are in a single engine fighter.... it only has one engine, hence Engine #1 is already set. If I am in a dual engine aircraft, it is taken care of by my Engine #2 bind. If I move Engine#2 Axis while in a single engine aircraft it doesnt do anything as it only has one engine... Engine #1

Does this make sense?

Another function that would need to be bound is engine selection: Left, Right, Both

ATAG_Noofy
May-25-2019, 10:58
Example:
One of the first things I have done is removed the Throttle axis binding, and in its place I have bound Engine #1 and Engine #2.
The reason for this is that I have a dual throttle control, and if you are in a single engine fighter.... it only has one engine, hence Engine #1 is already set. If I am in a dual engine aircraft, it is taken care of by my Engine #2 bind. If I move Engine#2 Axis while in a single engine aircraft it doesnt do anything as it only has one engine... Engine #1

Does this make sense?

Another function that would need to be bound is engine selection: Left, Right, Both

Yes that makes sense.

However, if you have the engine selection keys for E#1, E#2, and "All Engines" bound, you can (in theory) keep the throttle axis binding as is. By default (i.e. when you start the sim) engine selection is set to "All Engines", so if you are flying a fighter or a bomber the throttle axis will work the same. If when in a bomber you need to take a different action on left or right engine, you can select E#1 or E#2, do whatever you wanted to do, and then come back to "All Engines". This by the way should work likewise for any engine-related command, such as magnetos settings, mixture settings, radiator settings, prop pitch settings, prop feathering, carb heat, and any other command I may have left out.

The above of course is intended to those who have a single throttle control (like myself) and wish to fly both fighters and bombers with the same settings.

Currently I have a different settings .ini file for each type of aircraft, but I am working on a common setting that would work for both. I'll share it here when done (and tested) for those who may be interested. You won't have to use the same key bindings as me, but rather be inspired by the logic behind it to map the keys to your likings/preferences. This being said someone may have already produced such a file earlier (I confess I have not yet had time to go through all the posts in this forum). If you know about it please post the link.

DRock
May-25-2019, 11:32
I would say that it may be good to have a prerequisite of having your keys bound for multi engine aircraft prior to the event. I can easily see the event being nothing more than a tech support for those who have not bound their equipment. To avoid this, perhaps we should put a discussion on here on what keys should be bound, or a theory of what to bind and why.


https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8556

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-25-2019, 19:56
ATAG_Noofy & ATAG_Scones I have to say it was an amazing pleasure to have you join us in the impromptu bomber training. Same to you DRock. WHen we get the time or you see me on, let me know and we'll go over the whole thing, and keep practicing.

ATAG_Noofy
May-25-2019, 20:23
ATAG_Noofy & ATAG_Scones I have to say it was an amazing pleasure to have you join us in the impromptu bomber training. Same to you DRock. WHen we get the time or you see me on, let me know and we'll go over the whole thing, and keep practicing.

That was great fun. Thanks a lot to you and DRock for the training, and to all the participants for the fun.

Learned a lot. Still a long way to go...

Looking forward to a similar event on a Ju88, or He111.

Can't get used to this awkward GB compass. On my solo runs I had to find the target by dead reckoning (no landmarks visible for a very long time crossing the Channel at 50ft on the deck) :D

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-25-2019, 20:44
Can't get used to this awkward GB compass.

Its quite simple, as it is used for auto pilot. FOr everything else just keep in mind that the "T" always points north. so you can dead recon from that the direction you need to go. I'll go over it with you when i get the chance.

DRock
May-25-2019, 20:49
Fun stuff.:thumbsup:

Next time, let’s get some more escorts.:doh:

ATAG_Scones
May-25-2019, 20:58
ATAG_Noofy & ATAG_Scones I have to say it was an amazing pleasure to have you join us in the impromptu bomber training. Same to you DRock. WHen we get the time or you see me on, let me know and we'll go over the whole thing, and keep practicing.

The pleasure was all mine, Wukits! Literally, it was a blast! Let's do it again.

It was great that Vampire and Knight joined us early on. Without them I would have been your sole escort.

Thanks DRock, Wukits, and to all who took part.

:salute:

DRock
May-25-2019, 21:05
Found those videos, me Lord.


The Band of Blennies series.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10439

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16401

This raid was pretty cool, too.

https://youtu.be/qHIe6IeWdSU

Thread. https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12830

ATAG_Noofy
May-25-2019, 21:05
Its quite simple, as it is used for auto pilot. FOr everything else just keep in mind that the "T" always points north. so you can dead recon from that the direction you need to go. I'll go over it with you when i get the chance.

Oh I can read it all right now.
I just can’t get used to its logic.
Nor to its position, hidden right behind the steering wheel...
:doh::doh::doh:
To estimate my SSE course I was guessing the angle between the T-bar and the plane axis. That’s the only thing I could see at a glance. And you can’t get your eyes off the windscreen for too long when flying literally feet wet.
Now if I knew how to set the autopilot on it would have been a different story.
Still a lot to learn, and this is what makes it so much fun
:salute:

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-25-2019, 21:14
Now if I knew how to set the autopilot on it would have been a different story.
Still a lot to learn, and this is what makes it so much fun
:salute:

It's simpler than I thought, and it is easy to understand and set up as well. We'll get you set up in no time at all. Though like you I don't understand any of the positions of all the devices on the Red planes. It's like all their locations were an afterthought.

9./JG52 gr00ve
May-26-2019, 03:53
Nice one guys. We made sure you got full experience. :devilish: :shoot:
It was nice to see blennie formation.
Get more escorts next time.

S!

DerDa
May-26-2019, 04:24
I just can’t get used to its logic.
Nor to its position, hidden right behind the steering wheel...
:doh::doh::doh:


British planes are not about logic, they are about style :-)
Anyway, the compass in the Blennie is perfectly visible, compared with other British ac.


In Hurri or Spit you basically have to wiggle around the stick to catch a glance.
And in the Beaufighter it is nicely placed, but you just can't see the T unless you zoom in all the way. :):):)

ATAG_Noofy
May-26-2019, 07:31
... the compass in the Blennie is perfectly visible, compared with other British ac.

I love the way you put it roflmao

Torric270
May-26-2019, 08:41
Oh I can read it all right now.
I just can’t get used to its logic.
Nor to its position, hidden right behind the steering wheel...
:doh::doh::doh:
To estimate my SSE course I was guessing the angle between the T-bar and the plane axis. That’s the only thing I could see at a glance. And you can’t get your eyes off the windscreen for too long when flying literally feet wet.
Now if I knew how to set the autopilot on it would have been a different story.
Still a lot to learn, and this is what makes it so much fun
:salute:

There is a compass in the bombardier station, I do my navigating from there.

ATAG_Noofy
May-26-2019, 08:49
There is a compass in the bombardier station, I do my navigating from there.

Ah, ok. Did not know that. Will check it out.
I also normally use Virtual Cockpit that displays intruments and other parameters on a separate monitor, but yesterday I was not in my usual setup, so did not have this one on hand.

ATAG_JackMaxx
May-26-2019, 09:03
nice map with tools for navigation if you can set it up on a tablet or laptop, handy for trying to sneak in the back door :), you could also set it up on steam overlay, I prefer to use a an old laptop i have

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Mitgliederdateien/Widukind/Videos/Kurstool/map/index.html

remember to add 10 degrees to compass setting to account for diff between true and magnetic pole

ATAG_Noofy
May-26-2019, 09:17
nice map with tools for navigation if you can set it up on a tablet or laptop, handy for trying to sneak in the back door :), you could also set it up on steam overlay, I prefer to use a an old laptop i have

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Mitgliederdateien/Widukind/Videos/Kurstool/map/index.html

remember to add 10 degrees to compass setting to account for diff between true and magnetic pole

Nice one. Thanks for the link :thumbsup:

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-26-2019, 12:01
Nice one guys. We made sure you got full experience. :devilish: :shoot:
It was nice to see blennie formation.
Get more escorts next time.

S!

Oh yeah, both side got a lot of experience with us flying :)
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ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-26-2019, 12:02
remember to add 10 degrees to compass setting to account for diff between true and magnetic pole



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ATAG_Scones
May-26-2019, 12:41
Oh yeah, both side got a lot of experience with us flying :)
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Lovely shots, Wukits. So much for my escorting skills! :(

9./JG52 gr00ve
May-26-2019, 15:16
Oh yeah, both side got a lot of experience with us flying :)
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nice screens...unfortunately for you, thats none of us in first 4 screenshots. rest of them is pretty familiar. I have video of second raid we bounced. Sadly, I didn't record sortie in 110 and first raid...Mindle snapped his wing off in a dive, so i had to do it all by myself :recon:

ATAG_TCP
May-26-2019, 17:26
The main form of nav we will be doing will be pre-flight, basically learning how to use the map tools in sim, and jotting down a correct bearing.
Covering distance and time etc will not be covered as that even gives me slight cross eyes :-P
But will be using some landmark identification, combined with acurate bearings ;)

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-26-2019, 17:43
I have video of second raid we bounced.

I hope it meets your standards for Youtube, and would love to see it.

1lokos
May-27-2019, 09:50
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"10º" is a generalization - Ok for fighter flights, for bombers is a bit more "complicated", notice the different angles (blue scale) for magnetic North in "Course Calculator" included in Desastersoft I. Gruppe/Kampfgeschwader 53 “Legion Condor” mini-campaign.

https://i.postimg.cc/py16qvm7/KC.jpg (https://postimg.cc/py16qvm7)
https://s18.postimg.cc/t8mbg0dw9/Declination.png

ATAG_Laser
May-27-2019, 11:02
This is a great initiative TheChristianPilot :thumbsup:

As a failed fighter pilot I have been 'Dabbling' a bit myself with the Blenheim lately. I can fly it pretty well, and using a Yoke instead of my trusty Sidewinder 2 adds to the immersion, but finding most of the designated targets on the maps in rotation is challenging to say the least (My navigational skills are on about the same level as my dogfighting skills)

Still, flying the Blennie is great fun for sure, and I wish I could join you for this, but, alas, just like the moth events I will have to miss out because I am out most Saturday nights.

I wish you every success with this. :salute:

DRock
May-27-2019, 12:10
This is a great initiative TheChristianPilot :thumbsup:

As a failed fighter pilot I have been 'Dabbling' a bit myself with the Blenheim lately. I can fly it pretty well, and using a Yoke instead of my trusty Sidewinder 2 adds to the immersion, but finding most of the designated targets on the maps in rotation is challenging to say the least (My navigational skills are on about the same level as my dogfighting skills)

Still, flying the Blennie is great fun for sure, and I wish I could join you for this, but, alas, just like the moth events I will have to miss out because I am out most Saturday nights.

I wish you every success with this. :salute:

If you want to train for level bombing, use airfields. Plot a bunch and hop from one to the other.

You’re not going after small targets when over 10,000. Even small airfields can be tricky to hit from 15+.


If you want help, let me know, Laser. We can set up a time to go over things. That’s if you can’t make it for this training.

~S~

DerDa
May-27-2019, 12:23
This is a great initiative TheChristianPilot :thumbsup:

As a failed fighter pilot I have been 'Dabbling' a bit myself with the Blenheim lately. I can fly it pretty well, and using a Yoke instead of my trusty Sidewinder 2 adds to the immersion, but finding most of the designated targets on the maps in rotation is challenging to say the least (My navigational skills are on about the same level as my dogfighting skills)

Still, flying the Blennie is great fun for sure, and I wish I could join you for this, but, alas, just like the moth events I will have to miss out because I am out most Saturday nights.

I wish you every success with this. :salute:


I love to fly the Blennie as well. But up to now I never bothered with high altitude bombing. Dashing over the channel to the nearest target at the french coast, dropping your load and trying to hurry back can be a lot of fun.
Depending on the mission there are usually some targets that are very easy to find, like airfields near the coast. The problem is that you get only few percent of damage, even if you use 2x 500lb bombs and 8 small ones.
Some targets can be possibly destroyed with one Blennie (the bunker with Hitler at Cap Griz Nez :-) ) or communication facilities and the like.

Just never expect to return home alive, when you fly the Blennie ...

PS: if you can get up on sunday mornings, you are always welcome to join us!

ATAG_TCP
May-28-2019, 01:13
Cheers Laser!
I have picked up a thing or two from hanging around aviation fellows for a few years haha, but only recently figured out the Cliffs of Dover bearings system haha!

Once you understand it, and ensure you take out your own mathematical errors/brain confusions, it works just great...
Now to figure out how to read the ground control's bearings to enemy groups correctly :-)

ATAG_Laser
May-28-2019, 01:26
If you want to train for level bombing, use airfields. Plot a bunch and hop from one to the other.

You’re not going after small targets when over 10,000. Even small airfields can be tricky to hit from 15+.


If you want help, let me know, Laser. We can set up a time to go over things. That’s if you can’t make it for this training.

~S~

Cheers drock. I might take you up on that. I normally only go for airfields or ships for that reason, but I have trouble even finding those sometimes. Managed to finish the job of taking out oye plage last night after it had already been hit a few times, but I do have trouble finding some of the airfields in France, especially the ones more inland, and as yet I haven't tried any higher altitude bombing

DRock
May-28-2019, 07:31
Cheers drock. I might take you up on that. I normally only go for airfields or ships for that reason, but I have trouble even finding those sometimes. Managed to finish the job of taking out oye plage last night after it had already been hit a few times, but I do have trouble finding some of the airfields in France, especially the ones more inland, and as yet I haven't tried any higher altitude bombing

Use highly recognizable landmarks as checkpoints.

I can show you some navigational tricks, too.

ATAG_Jeepy
May-28-2019, 13:17
Good to see this thread :bravo:

Just wanna contribute here with "my way" up high.
-take it, leave it or modify it :D
------------

Set up a handy "info-window".
Telling me bombsight settings too:thumbsup:

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-Bombsight controls set on my numeric key panel.
Altitude up #9 Down #6
Speed up #7 Down #4

Easy just to hold #9 until sight altitude setting 20.000feet,
and then kick that #7 eight times witch gives me 200miles airspeed.
These are good initial settings..

-You need that Lean to Gunsight mapped

-You do need to have that Auto Pilot set up.
This is mine :

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I press A once for heading mode twice for mode 22 and three times, its off again. (pilot friendly)

Then I have directional gyro and course setter on a hat-switch.

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Never more than 20% fuel..

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Using 1 sec. delay, always. Handy for "defence" down low :)

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Note convergence on tail gunner..

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Other controls..:

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Here is my "prosedures" on a high-level mission.
-After T/O :
Be sure You get the gear fully up below 140mph..
(If she`s slow/shaking, lower your speed below 140 and recycle landing gear)

Find Your planned heading after T/O and kick in heading mode.
Full power(110), low rpm and rads minimum 50%.
Eng. temp Max 250. (251=back to base.. Oil temp never a problem).

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Trim her out on a climb around 130mph.
-and now, coffee/beer/wine back in the gally..:alcohol:

During climb, set up Your bomb sight.
Alt.: 20.000feet
Speed: 200mph

Distributor mode : SALVO
Switch up = salvo. Down = Single drop. You can use the mouse on this.

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If bombing from above 20.000feet, this is how I do it..

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Be sure to reach Your level way ahead of the target.
2-3minutes/10miles, this to be fully stabilized.
The autopilot is not high tech..

You MUST be stable on altitude and speed upon reaching target!
When engaging mode 22, she will drop down to pick up speed..
You can reduse this some by lowering flaps for a short while, 5-10 degr.

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Remember flap up again or You will miss the target bigtime.

Before drop check list:)

-Fully stabilized
-Salvo selected
-Flaps up
Bombsight:
-IAS + 15mph
-Alt + "above 20K"
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You can check if all bombs out by selecting single-mode.
- all switches down.

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Why not continue climb back home, just to show`em contrails..
28.000feet :cool:
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Performance Mk V..:
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Careful not to overspeed props on decend .
-Keep rpm below 28000..

You can use gear as speed brake but to get them fully up again
speed must be less than 140mph.

------------
Usually a milkrun up there..:bedlove:
More bombers usually able to attract some..fun !

Way up there You have good chances against 109`s.
You can turn better and You got a tail-gunner..:shoot:
-Request escort! Only way those fighter jocks can win a mission :D
-Be sure You`r NOT flying as Pilot & Gunner. Then he`ll warn U and will shoot.
-I do not calculate winds as they are no problem on big targets..(Airfields)
(wind velocity in our missions are low).
------------
Settings low level: pwr 110, coarse pitch, rad.40%.
-Fuel loadout and radiators give a big impact on speed..

Happy Landings!

ATAG_Laser
May-28-2019, 15:17
That's a very useful post Jeepy :thumbsup:

Next time I fire up my rig I will go through the above and check against what I have and adjust accordingly.

Back to Navigation, the problem I have is that there are so many rivers / roads etc that it's so easy to follow the wrong one, and over on the French side of the map many of the airfields are grouped together, so making sure I am lining up on the right target is an issue for me.

Some I can find fairly easily, Le Havre, Oye Plage to name two, some not so easy.

I have made a mission using the FMB flying a Blennie from Lympne, and I have found this a useful tool to help with Navigation.

For example, a few weeks ago I was on Axis v Allies on a map where Caffiers was a target, but having reached France I couldn't find the target, so just dropped my bombs on the nearest airfield and headed home.

I later opened my mission, found caffiers on the map and created the airfield, populating it with a few static aircraft etc, then played the mission, taking off in my Blennie and heading over the channel to find my newly created target.

The advantage of doing this is that, unlike on the ATAG server I could track my progress using the map icons, taking note of heading and waypoints.


I duly found and bombed caffiers, and repeated a few times, so next time that map is up when I am on I will (Hopefully) be able to find it successfully.

Like I said, I tend to only attack airfields, and from low level. If I come on intending to fly a Blennie and all of the airfield targets are already taken out, as is often the case, I just do something else.

Trying to find, say, a motorised column, or an agent to pick up is way beyond my nav skills

ATAG_Scones
May-28-2019, 18:40
Brilliant post, Jeepy!

Thank you so much for putting this information together, and for taking the time to add the screenshots - love it!

:salute:

ATAG_Ezzie
May-28-2019, 18:52
Like I said, I tend to only attack airfields, and from low level. If I come on intending to fly a Blennie and all of the airfield targets are already taken out, as is often the case, I just do something else.

Trying to find, say, a motorised column, or an agent to pick up is way beyond my nav skills

Stick with Laser!

I used to be exactly the same re -111 high altitude bombing - if the airfields were gone then i didnt have the skills to find the other targets so did something else. Now after some more practice and thanks to some experten advice my first choice of tgts are the 'other' targets with airfields a secondary.

For me improved accurate navigation and more accurate use of the bomb sight have made me more confident in going after the non airfield tgts. And some of the cod-isms help - for example the dots of tgts tend to stick out a long way before they render as recognisable tgt shapes so this can help locate the tgt area from a long way away if you keep your eye out for the dots. And as D says the use of recognisable land marks as turn points along your route can help make your navigation more accurate. I still struggle with some of the targets located well inland but I'm enjoying the challenge.

Ezzie

ATAG_TCP
May-28-2019, 19:53
Top post Jeepy!
Will definitely take a look at all of that in regards to training. First event as I say will probably be basic nav crawling and formations and maybe a little basic bombing :D

You bomber blokes are always welcome to come along and place your input on bombing as you are a lot more experiance with that side of things than I :)

9./JG52 gr00ve
May-28-2019, 19:56
I hope it meets your standards for Youtube, and would love to see it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N9hkGgnldQ&

:salute:

ATAG_Noofy
May-28-2019, 20:22
Back to Navigation, the problem I have is that there are so many rivers / roads etc that it's so easy to follow the wrong one, and over on the French side of the map many of the airfields are grouped together, so making sure I am lining up on the right target is an issue for me.

Roads and rivers are not just "roads" and "rivers". They have unique characteristics. They have a size, a general shape (curving to the left, to the right), a general direction (NW to SE, N to S, E to W, etc), branches/forks, landmarks on either side (forests, towns), roads crossing them, etc.

Airfields also have unique characteristics: size, number of runways, runway(s) direction(s), landmarks around them (city to the north, forest to the east, river to the south, etc.). Some are easily identifiable (those near the coastline, the tri-fields, etc), some are identifiable relative to a nearby distinct landmark (plain south of a major town, plain east of a large forest, to the SE of the tri-fields, etc.).

You can also follow rivers to lead you to your targets. If for example your target is along a river that goes NE to SW, you can try to hit the river on purpose to the N of the target by exaggerating the error to the north, then follow the river to the SE and find the target. And you can multiply this at will, for example by following one river that will lead you to a second river that will in turn lead you to a third river that will lead you to your target.

It is by reading all these landmarks and comparing them with what you see on the map, combined with your orientation, and most importantly your estimated position at all times (last known position + heading followed + speed + time = estimated position). This is why it is important to consistently note on a printed map your known positions, together with the time of the fix, and your speed and heading. This also helps finding your exact ground speed by dividing the distance between two known points by the time spent flying between them (difference between the times of the two fixes). And if you print your maps to a given scale, for example where each 10km square measures 5cm on your printout, you can prepare a ruler that shows time instead of distance, one for each airplane that you fly. If for example you fly at 300 km/h in the Blenheim, then you know that you fly 10 km in 2 minutes (300/60 = 5 km per minute => 2 minutes for 10 km). So you can prepare a ruler where each 5 cm represent 2 minutes, or each 2.5 cm represent 1 minute, so if you fly for say 7 minutes on a given heading, all you need to do is put this ruler on your printed map, and measure 7 minutes (in this case 17.5 cm) from your last known position on the given heading, and you very easily and quickly have a pretty good idea of where you should be...

VFR Navigation is a fun art, sounds complex but fairly easy once it clicks.

Not sure if there also are radio navigation aids in CLoD / the ATAG server. These make navigation even more fun, and come really handy if flying over the clouds or at night or low on the deck where landmarks are hard to identify... Can also be used to confirm your assumptions while flying VFR.

Just my 2c contribution :)

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-28-2019, 22:07
-Be sure You`r NOT flying as Pilot & Gunner. Then he`ll warn U and will shoot.



I learned that the last position you were in is reserved for you. So in order to free your gunner, go from pilot to navigator/bombardier, then hit previous to go back to pilot.
(with default keys)
As Pilot
hit [c]

You are now a navigator/bombardier
hit [shft]+[c]

You are back to being a pilot, and you gunner will no longer be sleeping.



I attempted to bomb a small train station in Samer at 20k. The mission photos were zoomed in at ground level. Due to height, the building did not render in, so I bombed where I thought it was. I hit exactly where I wanted.... but the wrong side of the tracks. Nailed the train with splash. When we are ready for such trials as "pinpoint" bombing, I would highly suggest that we be proactive, and recon targets posting them in the appropriate server mission thread(if that is ok with the Mission Builder).

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-28-2019, 22:32
"10º" is a generalization - Ok for fighter flights, for bombers is a bit more "complicated", notice the different angles (blue scale) for magnetic North in "Course Calculator" included in Desastersoft I. Gruppe/Kampfgeschwader 53 “Legion Condor” mini-campaign.

https://i.postimg.cc/py16qvm7/KC.jpg (https://postimg.cc/py16qvm7)
https://s18.postimg.cc/t8mbg0dw9/Declination.png

Is this how it is setup in CloD?

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-28-2019, 23:13
Not sure if there also are radio navigation aids in CLoD / the ATAG server. These make navigation even more fun, and come really handy if flying over the clouds or at night or low on the deck where landmarks are hard to identify... Can also be used to confirm your assumptions while flying VFR.

Just my 2c contribution :)

There is radio navigation assistance. It's vector home... You can use that to pinpoint where you are on your path by knowing where you took off from.
Case in point, you want to bomb St. Omer;

Start a Biggin Hill,
fly south till you are at wilmington, find the city,
fly due east,
Use [Tab] [7] [something] to vector home... This will give you a line you can "draw" from you home airfield intersecting your flight path/line.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=39274&d=1559099233
39274

If your vector home is 300 you are at St. Omer.

If this is more than 300, you know you are not quite there.
A vector home of 315 has you mid channel.

Less than 300, means you overshot your destination.





I use this quite a lot if I know a given landmark, and fly a known direction for an unknown target/target area. Though the resolution of the angle vector home has me often flying from a "near" Airfield for a smaller resolution.

ATAG_Noofy
May-29-2019, 02:23
There is radio navigation assistance. It's vector home... You can use that to pinpoint where you are on your path by knowing where you took off from.
Case in point, you want to bomb St. Omer;

Start a Biggin Hill,
fly south till you are at wilmington, find the city,
fly due east,
Use [Tab] [7] [something] to vector home... This will give you a line you can "draw" from you home airfield intersecting your flight path/line.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=39274&d=1559099233
39274

If your vector home is 300 you are at St. Omer.

If this is more than 300, you know you are not quite there.
A vector home of 315 has you mid channel.

Less than 300, means you overshot your destination.





I use this quite a lot if I know a given landmark, and fly a known direction for an unknown target/target area. Though the resolution of the angle vector home has me often flying from a "near" Airfield for a smaller resolution.

Excellent suggestion. I’ll try it next time.
What is the accuracy of vectors to home? If only 5 degrees accurate, then in your example the error would be +/- 15km at this distance from home, or a max error of 30 km around the target. That’s a 3 map-square span. Also it would not indicate any drift from course on the looong leg from Wilmington city to target.

ATAG_Ezzie
May-29-2019, 03:42
Radio navigation is/was available in the london ruft mission i made that is in rotation on the atag server. Details are in the brief and torric has a thread in the forum on how to do it in cod.

Ezzie

ATAG_Noofy
May-29-2019, 04:30
Radio navigation is/was available in the london ruft mission i made that is in rotation on the atag server. Details are in the brief and torric has a thread in the forum on how to do it in cod.

Ezzie

Thanks for the tip. Will have a look at it. This is getting exciting... :thumbsup:

ATAG_Ezzie
May-29-2019, 05:51
Radio navigation is/was available in the london ruft mission i made that is in rotation on the atag server. Details are in the brief and torric has a thread in the forum on how to do it in cod.

Ezzie

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8840&highlight=Beacon

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-29-2019, 07:41
I would like to state that it is critical you are comfortable and experienced in flying the Blen prior to learning formation and bombing. Both are advanced skills, but are near impossible if you cannot fly the plane. This is especially true as you attention will be over saturated with the tasks at hand, and can easily be overwhelming. This isn't to discourage anyone from joining, but to encourage flying till the aircraft is almost second nature.


Some other tips is that if you are breaking formation, over shooting, etc. You are suppose to break below the formation.

ATAG_Noofy
May-29-2019, 08:27
https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8840&highlight=Beacon

Thanks Ezzie.

Checked the link. There is a downloadable mission called "Beams", plus the last post in the thread mentions that this has been implemented in several missions of the ATAG server.

Two questions:

1. since "Beams" was apparently developed in an older version of CLoD, is it safe to install and give it a try in v4.55, or do I risk screwing my installation up?

2. last post mentions this was implemented in "London Ruft, Raiders, and Steamworks to name a few". Does anyone know which ATAG missions include this feature, and is it still active today?

ATAG_Noofy
May-29-2019, 08:33
I would like to state that it is critical you are comfortable and experienced in flying the Blen prior to learning formation and bombing. Both are advanced skills, but are near impossible if you cannot fly the plane. This is especially true as you attention will be over saturated with the tasks at hand, and can easily be overwhelming. This isn't to discourage anyone from joining, but to encourage flying till the aircraft is almost second nature.

Makes sense :thumbsup:



Some other tips is that if you are breaking formation, over shooting, etc. You are suppose to break below the formation.

Yep, you quickly lose visibility below in the Blenheim. Experienced that last Saturday. I had to climb up to avoid hitting anyone. Managed to get back in formation just in time to do a beautiful grouped drop on target with 100% hit rate, thanks to the lead bomber navigational skills (I believe it was you on hat run).

Gingerbread
May-29-2019, 12:30
Oh, come on guys! My heart is bleeding! :(

Finally the bombers get a little attention, but so far this year was busy for me, so I could barely fly online.

I bought the game almost two years ago, and after I familiarized myself with this simulator in a Hurricane, I flew 98% of the time with the Blenny online. I usually flew lonely, high altitude missions against airfields, but I always dreamed about bigger bomber formations. I hope I can join you some time!

When I don't have time to fly a full 4h mission on the server, I usually fly some practice mission, so this year I learned to fly the He-111 and the BR20. (Although I love my Blenny (I even gave her a name), I longed to have more things to click :D )

I don't have so much experience as those, who have thousands of hours in this sim, but if I can help you somehow, I would be glad to help! :salute:

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-29-2019, 12:48
I even gave her a name

Oh? What does she go by? and do you have nose art for her?

I think I have a name for my girl, and nose art almost ready.


You should join, and if you cannot make this, I'd be more than happy to try to cover the same things in my free time.

1lokos
May-29-2019, 13:03
What is the accuracy of vectors to home? If only 5 degrees accurate, then in your example the error would be +/- 15km at this distance from home, or a max error of 30 km around the target. That’s a 3 map-square span. Also it would not indicate any drift from course on the looong leg from Wilmington city to target.

It's sufficient accurate, the vector is based on your aircraft position, being corrected if you fly very out of the last course indicated.

Just "ask" (Tab-7-1) time from time, with little training you be able to fly back to base based on vectors even if clouds cover all SE or England - what is impossible in CloD.

Anyway you need know home base surroundings for final visual approach, the vector is not for over your base, but for the first point of landing pattern (similar to DCS).

ATAG_Noofy
May-29-2019, 13:29
It's sufficient accurate, the vector is based on your aircraft position, being corrected if you fly very out of the last course indicated.

Just "ask" (Tab-7-2) time from time, with little training you be able to fly back to base based on vectors even if clouds cover all SE or England - what is impossible in CloD.

Anyway you need know home base surroundings for final visual approach, the vector is not for over your base, but for the first point of landing pattern (similar to DCS).

There is no problem to fly back home using TAB 7-1. The closer you get to home the more accurate it becomes.

The discussion was on using this feature to help locate a target some 150-200km away from home base. This is where inaccuracy is questioned. Especially if you are NOT familiar with the enemy target surroundings, or have no wish to fly around in circles in enemy territory looking for it...

1lokos
May-29-2019, 15:27
Ah, OK. In this case use home base radial as reference will be not a "Knickebein". :D

Thing is "Sector controller" vectors is in 10º increments, resulting in imprecision up to +9º, -9º.

See home base "radial" interpretation as just a reference for general area of target, not for target location.

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-29-2019, 15:50
Ah, OK. In this case use home base radial as reference will be not a "Knickebein". :D

Thing is "Sector controller" vectors is in 10º increments, resulting in imprecision up to +9º, -9º.

See home base "radial" interpretation as just a reference for general area of target, not for target location.



I think you are looking at +5 and -5 as it would round to the next "vector". As such being in the general area is pretty much all that is needed. You should be able to spot your target(or where your target would be).

ATAG_TCP
May-29-2019, 17:07
Top stuff Gingerbread!
Don't have to have epic aviation knowledge, if you are used to flying the plane then you are qualified ;)
Your input is more than welcome!

Good to have a hardcore brit bomber pilot around too!
I myself do enjoy fighters, but the Blenny is a great bird, fantastic engine sounds too :)
Will probably switch full time to attackers when our Swordfish gets here in the future :D

ATAG_Ezzie
May-29-2019, 19:30
Thanks Ezzie.

Checked the link. There is a downloadable mission called "Beams", plus the last post in the thread mentions that this has been implemented in several missions of the ATAG server.

Two questions:

1. since "Beams" was apparently developed in an older version of CLoD, is it safe to install and give it a try in v4.55, or do I risk screwing my installation up?

2. last post mentions this was implemented in "London Ruft, Raiders, and Steamworks to name a few". Does anyone know which ATAG missions include this feature, and is it still active today?

re Q1. I think there's little risk in screwing up your install by downloading the mission and giving it a go. I downloaded a set of training missions ATAG-Oskar uploaded a while back and they worked OK in the latest version of COD.

re Q2. When you are in the mission on the server check the briefing and you should find some freq details hopefully. I put them into London Ruft and i think Freya may have done likewise in some other missions.

1lokos
May-29-2019, 21:14
https://i.postimg.cc/py16qvm7/KC.jpg
Is this how it is setup in CloD?

Yes, think is due the fact that outside of Earth magnetic field Agonic Lines (strong green in linked map), magnetic deviation varies between Isogonic Lines (faint blue).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/World_Magnetic_Declination_2015.pdf/page1-1200px-World_Magnetic_Declination_2015.pdf.jpg

No clue on how Desastersoft guys determine this values, perhaps receive information from CloD developers, an interview in SimHQ suggest that they have close contact at time.

EDIT - Seems that beyond "Magnetic Declination", "Magnetic Deviation" play in the equation.

https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=677
https://www.ivao.aero/training/documentation/books/pp_adc_introduction_navigation.pdf

ATAG_JackMaxx
May-30-2019, 07:52
There is radio navigation assistance. It's vector home... You can use that to pinpoint where you are on your path by knowing where you took off from.
Case in point, you want to bomb St. Omer;

Start a Biggin Hill,
fly south till you are at wilmington, find the city,
fly due east,
Use [Tab] [7] [something] to vector home... This will give you a line you can "draw" from you home airfield intersecting your flight path/line.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=39274&d=1559099233
39274

If your vector home is 300 you are at St. Omer.

If this is more than 300, you know you are not quite there.
A vector home of 315 has you mid channel.

Less than 300, means you overshot your destination.





I use this quite a lot if I know a given landmark, and fly a known direction for an unknown target/target area. Though the resolution of the angle vector home has me often flying from a "near" Airfield for a smaller resolution.

nice tip I will try this

DRock
May-30-2019, 11:54
There is radio navigation assistance. It's vector home... You can use that to pinpoint where you are on your path by knowing where you took off from.
Case in point, you want to bomb St. Omer;

Start a Biggin Hill,
fly south till you are at wilmington, find the city,
fly due east,
Use [Tab] [7] [something] to vector home... This will give you a line you can "draw" from you home airfield intersecting your flight path/line.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=39274&d=1559099233
39274

If your vector home is 300 you are at St. Omer.

If this is more than 300, you know you are not quite there.
A vector home of 315 has you mid channel.

Less than 300, means you overshot your destination.





I use this quite a lot if I know a given landmark, and fly a known direction for an unknown target/target area. Though the resolution of the angle vector home has me often flying from a "near" Airfield for a smaller resolution.

This is also a good technique if you get lost in France, although the further from home base, the less accurate.

If lost, hit Tab-7-2 for direction home, then bring up map and compass. Draw line from home base opposite of Tab-7-2 number (300 would be 120, 045 would be 225).

You are on that line somewhere.

Also, if you know tab-7-2 should say vector to home base 320 from target, that might help you triangulate to target using checkpoints that take you off of a direct route.


Another good tip for success is recon. It’s worth going for a quick flight in a fighter and having a look. You can learn a lot from this. Same goes for low level attacks.


~S~

Gingerbread
May-31-2019, 13:13
Oh? What does she go by? and do you have nose art for her?

I think I have a name for my girl, and nose art almost ready.


You should join, and if you cannot make this, I'd be more than happy to try to cover the same things in my free time.

Thank you Lord Wukits and TheChristianPilot for the kind words!


I call her IronDuck. :-)

Partly because I see a small resemblance with the Blenny when I see a wild duck flying.
And partly because I liked the show TaleSpin when I was a kid. :D (Don't laugh at me too hard... :D )

I don't have a noseart yet. I have many ideas for skins for my Blenny and TigerMoth and some other planes too, but I didn't have enough time yet to try to make them.

What about your plane?
(Hm, maybe this could be even a new thread! :whacky3: )


My experience about autopilot is that if you reach your near cruise speed, then it won't go into a dive after engaging it.
For example, if you level out after your climb and wait to reach at least 190 mph in the Blenny before activating Mode22, then it will keep your altitude.
(I usually cruise around 190-200 mph. I like to fly "by the book" (keeping the boost and rpm recommendations of the manual).)

ATAG_Lord Wukits
May-31-2019, 20:53
I call her IronDuck. :-)

Partly because I see a small resemblance with the Blenny when I see a wild duck flying.
And partly because I liked the show TaleSpin when I was a kid. :D (Don't laugh at me too hard... :D )


(I usually cruise around 190-200 mph. I like to fly "by the book" (keeping the boost and rpm recommendations of the manual).)


I'm in the process of getting my daughter hooked on TailSpin. Friends for life, through thick and thin
With another tale to spin!
Oh-ee-yeah!


Back when I used to pilot CR-90s in a Starwars mod from Freelancer [Freeworlds] my ship was named the Bender Rover. I would role play the ship and the mutt, with nose art based on the play of words Bender Rover (bend her over). A ragtag group of degenerate Imperials who always were given the worst job, and getting into trouble. The side effect being that the terrible jobs and patrols would bolster the kills, and provide experience for crew during actual mission.


Links to my facebook images of the nosecone art mockup. Could be considered NSFW, but they are up on FB so maybe not inappropriate, but viewer discretion advised. These are from concept, flushing out details, then the first iteration, and the last being the one I used based on our female commander's avatar. Though it was alway covered up with a blast plate when entering civilized imperial space.



https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30162_396286025875_168857_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=47daa2f55f656e92f8284618c4d93d07&oe=5D5C6F07

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30162_396286035875_4744451_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=f82e49d99efda26eb4291955a013dd6c&oe=5D59D43D

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30162_396286070875_940307_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=27966fe472a311b7f0a9ca7d15755de1&oe=5D59251E

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30162_396286040875_3412203_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=f1649fdf3c7483381539e3a7e6037ef7&oe=5D9977FB



[GO ahead and remove the links, or ask and I will remove them if they are not appropriate.]

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-04-2019, 08:48
Now that we are in the final week, can I get all those who are wishing to attend to reply stating their intent to join for training. :recon:
This way I can set up teams, and setup a curriculum of sorts.

8th of June, 2030 GMT

Info for setting up the bindings[thanks DRock! Thanks for the fix Gingerbread!]
https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8556






ATAG_Lord Wukits
ATAG_Noofy
Gingerbread

Gingerbread
Jun-04-2019, 09:17
It is a strong maybe. But as you wrote "I'm wishing to attend"! :D

The link doesn't work (it has parts missing).
Try this:
https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8556

To the keybinding:
I also have keys for 10% engine throttle and 110% engine throttle.
They come in handy with engine startup and warmup. ;)

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-04-2019, 09:26
Now that we are in the final week, can I get all those who are wishing to attend to reply stating their intent to join for training. :recon:
This way I can set up teams, and setup a curriculum of sorts.

8th of June, 2030 GMT

Info for setting up the bindings[thanks DRock!]
https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ead.php?t=8556




Yep, reconfirming. And thanks for the link.
Will that be on ATAG Server or on TFS Server?

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-04-2019, 09:35
Yep, reconfirming. And thanks for the link.
Will that be on ATAG Server or on TFS Server?

It is my understanding that it will be on the TFS server, and a different map to test our navigation skills.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-04-2019, 12:14
It is my understanding that it will be on the TFS server, and a different map to test our navigation skills.

Cool :woohoo:

Gingerbread
Jun-05-2019, 08:37
It is my understanding that it will be on the TFS server, and a different map to test our navigation skills.

:thumbsup:

Should I bring a safari hat and tell my mechanics to install tropical filter to my Blenny? ;) ;) ;)

DRock
Jun-05-2019, 09:02
:thumbsup:

Should I bring a safari hat and tell my mechanics to install tropical filter to my Blenny? ;) ;) ;)

What is your timezone Gingerbread?

Maybe I can help you sooner?


Edit: around today?

9./JG52_Meyer
Jun-05-2019, 09:56
Salute!... are you fellas looking for some close 109 escorts ? :devilish:
I got some friends who would love to have a gander

Hals und beinbruch

DRock
Jun-05-2019, 10:01
Salute!... are you fellas looking for some close 109 escorts ? :devilish:
I got some friends who would love to have a gander

Hals und beinbruch

LoL

We will be calling upon the Mighty 52 for something 'Big' in the near future. Until then, our gunners could use a little calibrating.:-P

Gingerbread
Jun-05-2019, 11:37
What is your timezone Gingerbread?

Maybe I can help you sooner?


Edit: around today?


Thank you for your generous offer DRock!
But I will be happy if I can make it on Saturday evening.
(I can read the forum almost every day at my workplace, but finding time to fly in the evenings is a different story. :-( )

I'm in UTC+2 right now (UTC+1 in winter time).

Gingerbread
Jun-07-2019, 10:32
8th of June, 2030 GMT


Just a quick question of clarification:

You mean GMT as the official GMT
or
you mean GMT as the time in the UK right now?

(I am +1h to London, but in the summer London is also +1h to GMT...
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/gmt )

:recon:

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-07-2019, 11:04
Just a quick question of clarification:

You mean GMT as the official GMT
or
you mean GMT as the time in the UK right now?

(I am +1h to London, but in the summer London is also +1h to GMT...
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/gmt )

:recon:

GMT is GMT, it never changes. Also called UTC or "zulu".
The summer time in London is called LST for London Summer Time...

DRock
Jun-07-2019, 11:35
Confirm that there will be someone there to run this.

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-07-2019, 13:10
Confirm that there will be someone there to run this.

I am committed to being there helping/training.

Or are you stating that you will be there as well?

DRock
Jun-07-2019, 13:27
I am committed to being there helping/training.

Or are you stating that you will be there as well?

No, I can’t make it.

Just didn’t want anyone to be left hanging.


I’m glad it’s in good hands, then.:thumbsup:

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-08-2019, 15:32
TS is up!


Pass is

Bomb

ATAG_TCP
Jun-09-2019, 04:00
Apologies once again for the short notice pass of training!

Did everything go alright?

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-09-2019, 04:46
Apologies once again for the short notice pass of training!

Did everything go alright?


Hi Christian,
We missed you last night. That went very well and was greaaat fun.
Thanks to Wukits :thumbsup: and DRock :thumbsup: we did skip-bombing ships, then moved to the Axis vs Allies server to do formation (6 planes), navigation, and high altitude bombing.
I’m rapidly getting hooked to flying bombers :go:

ATAG_TCP
Jun-09-2019, 05:20
Top stuff!
A pretty great team to have for training :P
Sounds pretty awesome, the ship targeting would be pretty useful stuff to learn! Will hopefully be available for the next one ;)

Don't suppose you got any screenshots? :)

Rostic
Jun-09-2019, 05:36
Thanks to Wukits :thumbsup: and DRock :thumbsup: we did skip-bombing ships, then moved to the Axis vs Allies server to do formation (6 planes), navigation, and high altitude bombing.
I’m rapidly getting hooked to flying bombers :go:

Sounds like Reds got high altitude bombers team :thumbsup:
Hope to meet you in the sky!


P.S. Please, share few screenshots :)
P.S.S.: May be you will like this screenshots https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30741&p=333569&viewfull=1#post333569

ATAG_Scones
Jun-09-2019, 08:54
That was mega!

Hoping that Christian will be able to attend the next get together.

Big thank you to Wukits, DRock, and all the peeps working behind the scenes. :thumbsup:

:salute:

DRock
Jun-09-2019, 09:02
Now we just need some escorts. The kind with guns.:thumbsup:

ATAG_TCP
Jun-09-2019, 19:40
Ooo, I don't suppose we could do a combined training for escorts with the bombers? :3

That actually sounds rather appealing :)

Gingerbread
Jun-13-2019, 10:17
Thank you, guys, it was awesome to fly with you!

And, although I didn't speak too much, it was real fun to hear all those stories! :D
(Well, it turned out very quickly, that my not too good English speaking skills go well below zero, when I am concentrating on staying in formation. Sorry if I sounded like an idiot sometimes. :ind: )

39542

What I expected from this session in the first place from my part is to practice formation flying, and we just got plenty of that!
Thank you DRock and Lord Wukits, you are excellent teachers!

The ship bombing practice was a big bonus too!

Is it a way to edit the water depth of the practice map to enable the skipbombing to work? Or is the water depth calculated algorithmically related to the distance from the shore?

I think we all learned much, I hope there will be a second session soon! :salute:

DRock
Jun-13-2019, 11:12
Thank you, guys, it was awesome to fly with you!

And, although I didn't speak too much, it was real fun to hear all those stories! :D
(Well, it turned out very quickly, that my not too good English speaking skills go well below zero, when I am concentrating on staying in formation. Sorry if I sounded like an idiot sometimes. :ind: )

39542

What I expected from this session in the first place from my part is to practice formation flying, and we just got plenty of that!
Thank you DRock and Lord Wukits, you are excellent teachers!

The ship bombing practice was a big bonus too!

Is it a way to edit the water depth of the practice map to enable the skipbombing to work? Or is the water depth calculated algorithmically related to the distance from the shore?

I think we all learned much, I hope there will be a second session soon! :salute:

I understood you just fine, Sir.

Glad you could join us.

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-13-2019, 12:04
Thank you, guys, it was awesome to fly with you!

And, although I didn't speak too much, it was real fun to hear all those stories! :D
(Well, it turned out very quickly, that my not too good English speaking skills go well below zero, when I am concentrating on staying in formation. Sorry if I sounded like an idiot sometimes. :ind: )

I think we all learned much, I hope there will be a second session soon! :salute:


Your skills were great. Something I think most of us consider is that the rules to flying [in order] are Aviate, Navigate, and then Communicate. So any teacher should understand that you are primarily distracted flying the plane, and your secondary focus is knowing where the other planes are/the ground is. That leaves little focus on communicating.

Things to consider that became apparent;

1.) The lead bomber sets the autopilot. Those that follow should not[unless the skill is there to do so without leaving formation/causing an incident]. The responsibility of the rest of the bombers is to maintain formation.

2.) The lead bomber controls the drop. Those that follow have no reason to set their bomb sights. The responsibility of the rest of the bombers is to drop when the lead bomber tells them to.

3.) The lead bomber does not fly "full throttle", and calls out their settings so others can set a higher setting to keep in formation. If both bombers are flying the same settings, like the tomato, they will never catch up.

Other than that I think everyone did quite well.

For the next training I would suggest that a lead bomber be chosen, and the other adhere to the the above. Then when the bomb run is complete, the next lead is chosen. I think we might want to incorporate turret training as well. Whereas I or another person will fly blue, and make "simulated" runs on a bomber, whereas someone flies the bomber, and the others in training will man the turrets.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-13-2019, 13:34
... like the tomato, they will never catch up.

roflmao

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-13-2019, 13:43
...Well, it turned out very quickly, that my not too good English speaking skills go well below zero, when I am concentrating on staying in formation....


https://youtu.be/yXf1bhEEXd0

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 05:00
Question related to bombing with a Ju88, addressed to our beloved and respected trainers, or anyone who has the answer:

Yesterday the ATAG server was relatively quiet, so I thought it would be a good opportunity to do some practice bombing with the Ju88.
Manston was one of the targets, so I flew several sorties there, both high altitude and low level bombing.
For some reason my bombs never exploded.
I am pretty sure (double checked every time) that my bombs were armed and bomb bays open.
I tried all combinations of distribution mode (single, series, salvo) and several counts for series (1, 6, 8, infinite), fuse delays (0s, 0.08s, 14s), distribution delay (0m, 5.5m, 10m, 20m, ...), bomb slots (#1, #2, #3, and all) etc.
I am pretty sure the bombs went out - could see them drop from the ventral gunner position.
I am pretty sure all bombs were on target.
I am pretty sure the target was not destroyed out of action (did one sortie in a He111 and it went fine, one drop and kaboom! 24% damage recorded).
For some reason there were no explosions of bombs dropped from the Ju88..
Also tried it on the ground at the parking starting position. Dropping the bombs from the He111 resulted in my plane blowing up after a few seconds (fuse delay), but still no explosion when bombs were dropped from the Ju88 on the ground.
I did see them fall from the ventral gunner position, but nothing happened.
And again, YES, bombs were armed (using the same key I use to arm bombs on all other models - Ctrl+W in my mapping).
Am I missing an extra step particular to the Ju88?
Confused :S:S:S

EDIT: my bomb load was 18x50 in bay#1 + 10x50 in bay#2 + 4x250 in bay#3

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 06:35
Question related to bombing with a Ju88, addressed to our beloved and respected trainers, or anyone who has the answer:

Yesterday the ATAG server was relatively quiet, so I thought it would be a good opportunity to do some practice bombing with the Ju88.
Manston was one of the targets, so I flew several sorties there, both high altitude and low level bombing.
For some reason my bombs never exploded.
I am pretty sure (double checked every time) that my bombs were armed and bomb bays open.
I tried all combinations of distribution mode (single, series, salvo) and several counts for series (1, 6, 8, infinite), fuse delays (0s, 0.08s, 14s), distribution delay (0m, 5.5m, 10m, 20m, ...), bomb slots (#1, #2, #3, and all) etc.
I am pretty sure the bombs went out - could see them drop from the ventral gunner position.
I am pretty sure all bombs were on target.
I am pretty sure the target was not destroyed out of action (did one sortie in a He111 and it went fine, one drop and kaboom! 24% damage recorded).
For some reason there were no explosions of bombs dropped from the Ju88..
Also tried it on the ground at the parking starting position. Dropping the bombs from the He111 resulted in my plane blowing up after a few seconds (fuse delay), but still no explosion when bombs were dropped from the Ju88 on the ground.
I did see them fall from the ventral gunner position, but nothing happened.
And again, YES, bombs were armed (using the same key I use to arm bombs on all other models - Ctrl+W in my mapping).
Am I missing an extra step particular to the Ju88?
Confused :S:S:S

EDIT: my bomb load was 18x50 in bay#1 + 10x50 in bay#2 + 4x250 in bay#3


It may not be something you did wrong, but it could be a glitch.

I’ve led a sync drop on Lympne, and nothing.

There may be a saboteur in our bomb factories.


Edit. Bad aim will cause this too, but I don’t think this is the case. What happened when you dropped low level with 88?

Make sure your fuses are not 1km+.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 07:00
It may not be something you did wrong, but it could be a glitch.

I’ve led a sync drop on Lympne, and nothing.

There may be a saboteur in our bomb factories.


Edit. Bad aim will cause this too, but I don’t think this is the case. What happened when you dropped low level with 88?

Make sure your fuses are not 1km+.

Hi DRock,

Yep, maybe sabotage...

I am pretty sure it was not bad aim. Been practicing high altitude bombing in SinglePlayer mode using Oskar's Bomber training mission, and I could put my bomb (single drop) right in the bullseye from over 5500m with the He111. So hitting Manston Airfield from below 50m should be no aiming problem at all...

As mentioned in my previous post, the bombs are dropped (checked that from the ventral gunner position), then nothing happens. Very frustrating after a long run, passing through flak and avid spits and hurries, to get to a zero result...

I reconfirm that bombs were properly armed before drop (pressed the Ctrl+W key and got the confirmation message in the info window that bombs armed was "on").

EDIT: and yes, I used Low Altitude fuses.

Did I read you correctly that same "glitch" happened to you when bombing Lympne?

It would be interesting to hear from other Ju88 flyers if they also experienced same. Could it be the type of bombs used in the Ju88 that pose a problem?

How can this be fixed?

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-14-2019, 07:10
How can this be fixed?

An additional twenty five bombers.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 07:38
An additional twenty five bombers.

?

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 09:02
An additional twenty five bombers.

:devilish:

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 09:05
I think it was a glitch. It’s happened to me before.

Long flight, high alt, perfect drop, and.......nothing:ind:


You have to be patient as a bomber. Sometimes, you feel you have just waisted your time.

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 09:08
Try your Short fuse delay command next time.

Maybe that will override the fuses.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 09:55
Try your Short fuse delay command next time.

Maybe that will override the fuses.

Have already tried that. I think.
I have a key (NUMPAD9) assigned to « Toggle Bomb Distributor Short Delay ».
Is this what you mean?
When I press it I get no message feedback in the info window. Is this normal?

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 09:57
I think it was a glitch. It’s happened to me before.

Long flight, high alt, perfect drop, and.......nothing:ind:


You have to be patient as a bomber. Sometimes, you feel you have just waisted your time.

Yeah, but after 6-7 sorties with same result one can start questioning the reliability of the plane...

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 09:59
I could put my bomb (single drop) right in the bullseye from over 5500m with the He111. So hitting Manston Airfield from below 50m should be no aiming problem at all...


Congrats, Bud.

I know what it takes to get to this point, and am proud of you and Wukits’ progress with bombers.:thumbsup:

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 10:00
Have already tried that. I think.
I have a key (NUMPAD9) assigned to « Toggle Bomb Distributor Short Delay ».
Is this what you mean?
When I press it I get no message feedback in the info window. Is this normal?

Hmm, maybe SFD is only for BR20 and 111. I’ll check today.

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 10:02
Yeah, but after 6-7 sorties with same result one can start questioning the reliability of the plane...

I’ve given up before. Couldn’t figure the problem out, but it was rare.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 10:05
I’ve given up before. Couldn’t figure the problem out, but it was rare.

Worth giving it some extensive testing. I love that plane otherwise.
Happy to participate but need guidance...

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 10:34
Worth giving it some extensive testing. I love that plane otherwise.
Happy to participate but need guidance...

The Ju88 is by far the most destructive aircraft in this sim.

Let’s try dive bombing next.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 10:52
The Ju88 is by far the most destructive aircraft in this sim.

Let’s try dive bombing next.

Let’s get those bombs to work and try all kinds of bombings.
I have become a true fan :thumbsup:

ATAG_Lord Wukits
Jun-14-2019, 11:04
I'm still up for the challenge of bombing small targets[convoy/ships/train station/hanger/fuel silo] @ or above 20Kft/6000M whereas they don't render in. I have been taking reconnaissance photos to help identify where the target is.

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 11:17
The 88 is great at skip bombing, too.

You can wipe out the entire fleet if there is no enemy to stop you.


I once took out all 17 of 20 ships, all that was needed, and had bombs left over to dump on secondary target.

With its excellent top speeds, you’ll find the enemy is often stuck chasing you, giving your rear gunner more time to deal with him.

The only thing it’s missing is the peanuts.:thumbsup:

Torric270
Jun-14-2019, 11:32
There can be a glitch when setting up which fuses you are using (high/low) It was always good practice to save the change and then exit out of the game and restart so everyone then always loaded low alt bombs and left them there. A good practice after changing fuses was to take-off and drop a bomb or 2 to see if they explode before flying a long mission.

If memory serves, loading the low alt gives the default 14 sec, then use 0 second delay. This gives the delay needed for low alt but also gives a zero sec delay when bombing from alt (bombs hit the ground and explode rather than waiting another 14 seconds)

Short Fuse: Useful in the Br20 when carrying the 800 kg (or other high alt bombs on Br20) as it is default to high alt drop. Short fuse will let you drop around 100m or so and still explode, any lower and the bomb may not go off. I can't remember at the moment where else SFD would make a difference.

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 12:23
Short Fuse: Useful in the Br20 when carrying the 800 kg (or other high alt bombs on Br20) as it is default to high alt drop. Short fuse will let you drop around 100m or so and still explode, any lower and the bomb may not go off. I can't remember at the moment where else SFD would make a difference.

Hi Torric.

The BR20 can skip bomb the 800kg with SFD. 3ft off water.

As far as the 88, sometimes the bombs just don’t go off, even when everything is set right.

Torric270
Jun-14-2019, 12:29
Hi Torric.

The BR20 can skip bomb the 800kg with SFD. 3ft off water.

As far as the 88, sometimes the bombs just don’t go off, even when everything is set right.

Correct now that you mention it. Maybe the skipping gives the fuse enough time to arm. On land the alt will matter.

88: Weird. I always name and save at each step of the arming process (all the same save name) i.e. 88 low alt. Then restart game...test after takeoff.

Side note, once bomb selection is named/saved, that bomb load can be chosen from the quick start menu. Just use the down arrow to select your saved bomb load.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 12:51
What does not make sense is why (if) this only happens with the Ju88..

DRock
Jun-14-2019, 13:11
What does not make sense is why (if) this only happens with the Ju88..

It’s happened to me in the 110 as well.

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 13:27
It’s happened to me in the 110 as well.

And never in the blenny?
OK, let’s start a conspiracy theory :devilish:

ATAG_Noofy
Jun-14-2019, 14:31
Just did a test on the ground.
Bomb does not explode with master bombs armed = on.
They did with master bombs armed = off.
Seems the command is reversed...
Will test further