Video on the German side

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFNN8V_GvK0&list=UUmvMn70HDzT-8yQ82GkF0MQ&index=1

[Ohms]

Great video, glad to see I did not have a starring role.

Salute Ohmie:thumbsup:

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

Thank you, our pilots have all stopped CloD fly (KV13,StG2,JG11). Many left the Community. The last patch has angered them too much. I can fly only surprise attacks, because almost no chance alone against 2-4 enemies. the times were better.

Salute:salute:

[ATAG_Snapper]

I'm glad you are still flying Clod, Warjunkie, although I agree it's better to fly with wingmates. What concerned your squad mates most about the last patch?

[ATAG_Colander]

What concerned your squad mates most about the last patch?

+1
I would like to know as well.

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

The main problem is, when we fly bomber and Fighter together (ca. 15 Player) attack to Hawking with KI-Enemy the Performance is down by 2-5 Frames.
After every patch we tested new. Once too many player 2 engine-planes fly too close, the Performance go down to much. We had a strong server and the pilot with the strong PC had the same problem. The server was empty quickly because it was unplayable to play in the great Group and we was ca. 40 Members (StG2, JG11). after the last patch was taken the server offline (KV13).
2. Problem: In the curvefight (spinfight) the Messerschmitt are bad. Bf 109 is a rise and plunge fighterplane (boom and zoom). before the last patch the Bf109 was generally too strong in comparison with the English Planes if the experienced pilot was in it. since the last patch the english Planes throw at us and rise faster as we. Bf 109 is better in the Performance by 400 km/h +, when we fly gently rising straight. We must forever fly straight out and hope that our cooler is shot not slow, if we have a "6". this is frustrating. this change in the last patch took us many opportunities in air combat. the guys have just cursed when flying and now there is nobody around. some have stopped completely to fly, others have now formed a clan DCS and the rest flies again
IL2-1946. the BoS-new's deosn't even be discussed more in KV13 Forum. We have lost confidence in the 1C.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

We must forever fly straight out and hope that our cooler is shot not slow, if we have a "6". this is frustrating. this change in the last patch took us many opportunities in air combat. the guys have just cursed when flying and now there is nobody around. some have stopped completely to fly, others have now formed a clan DCS and the rest flies again


Well, that's a bit pathetic to my mind. The 109s are still an incredibly deadly plane despite the last patch. You only need to look at the statistics page to realise that 109s dominate the online kills.

Last night myself and 3 or 4 OTHER spitfires (snargelpuss, Septic, Fascar and Flyright) were out-turned and out-fought by a 109 from 16,000ft all the way up to 20,000 ft by =aero= in a 109. =aero= will confirm this, as will the other boys who flew with me trying to bring him down. We are not new spitfire pilots who don't know how to handle the spit either.

I've been out-turned on many occasions by the likes of Drinkins, MrX (who hasn't been and much lately?), Mr.Mk Molnieosniy, Herr_Lacal and Grentos
I've been seriously outplayed by JG27 on many occasions, both in terms of height, speed and in the turn.
I've had my wings shot off by 109 rounds that passed about 5 to 10 meters away because they explode in mid-air. A spitfire simply cannot do this, it does not have that ammo type!

There is no excuse for 109 drivers to abandon the game. Seriously. They should spend MORE time in game learning the aircraft, not less.
My inability to get kills in a spitfire foreced me to want to get better, and make smarter tactical choices, not throw the game out!

Sorry for the rant..:salute:

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

Unfortunately I have some difficulties to understand you, Googel translator not working properly.

The bf 109 armament is of course a great advantage. The longer the air battle the more I lose my height and power advantage.
on the same energie and hight-level to spit or hurri, I have no chance. I flee rather ( only fight if you can win).
the history, 4 spits against 1 bf 109, I do not understand. below 400 km / h, when I'm flying rising, every englishman is faster and get me.
how he (=aero=) can get better height as the spitfire (???). I would really like to fly with him, but my english is too bad without google translater.
after the last patch, we have test messerschmitt and spitfire together in many service areas. this was the psychological knock out for my friends.
if the shot down statistics say that, you have certainly right. I need a proper wingman.

thank you for this interesting information, my friend! S:salute:


p.S.: the main reason for my friends to stop play CloD is the unfit to fly large bomber-fighter associations.

[LG1.Farber]

The FM things I think is mostly that roll, sustained turn and drag (or opposite - energy retention) didnt get addressed in the last patch... This things are massive differences! Its not just speed and weapons.

As for DM, lets not even talk about it. The spit is an IL2... Seeing one with a fuel tank fire or the wings come off is like finding a brown parcel behind a rocking horse! :goofy



Yea this is a 30mm Mk108 not 20mm MG/FM, so we would have half the power? - What ever you get the idea. Things exploding in you wing do more damage than MG rounds...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk

[Continu0]

I think there is always a bias like "the others are stronger", but as a 109-Pilot with about 100 flying-hours, I can`t find any advantage on the 109 other than the armament.
Cannons are effective, but you have to get in very close range to be able to hit something with them. Bullets are much slower than those of the MG`s, so you have to do much much more deflection shooting than in any british plane.
Snap-Shoots are an option but you have to be lucky to get hits because the cannons fire about 2-3 shells a second, which means that planes can fly trough your bullet-stream without getting hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Wuknd8Q60
--> Watch 5:20 and you`ll know what I mean. The 109 was lucky on that one, but I score hits in maybe 1 in 3 times in such situations..

The spit also slightly outturns you, and If you are able to keep up with a spit`s turning, be sure that you will find yourself in a stall if you fire your cannons...
Pointing and Weapon-Handling does in general seem to be much more difficult in the 109. I have that feeling that the rudder on the 109 is much more effective than the spit´s which makes it much more difficult to properly point at something. Everytime you use the rudder just a little bit, the plane tips to the side heavily... This especially occurs when you are flying slow speeds (which seems to be realistic...)

Climbing doesn`t really get me an advantge because the difference is too small to climb away from an enemy before he gets you.
Maybe I just haven`t found the best climbing-Setting... (I use Prop-Pitch at 11, Full Power, 300 km/h, Afterburner).

But Most problematic at all ist the DM at the moment. I your water-cooling gets hit in a 109, you know that you won´t make it back for sure. While this might be realistic as well, I find it way too easy to shoot the water-cooling of the 109. I probably see 3 times more 109`s streaming water than spits... A short burst and you have had it...
As well I heard that the 109 had two cooling systems and could run with only one. Having modeled this would be an interesting solution to this problem...

This might all be historically accurate and it`s ceratinly an issue of training. My companions of JG4 with 800+ flying hours are much better, so there is hope for me..;- )
But if I am honest: I hope for change with the Team Fusion patch...

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

@Farber, if you're having trouble with the spitfire, I suggest you talk to some of you squad mates who are very good at bringing them down. Or chta with =aero=, or Drinkins. Thwey don't seem to have the problems you have experienced.

If you think your shooting is bad, ask Mr.Mk Molnieosniy how to do it.

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

+1 for Pstyle's comments!!! S!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Ihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Wuknd8Q60
--> Watch 5:20 and you`ll know what I mean. The 109 was lucky on that one, but I score hits in maybe 1 in 3 times in such situations..
.


This is a good video. It shows how a 109 can shoot down a diving spitfire within 30 seconds of becoming airborne, AND when the spitfire has the same general vector. At 2 minutes 4 seconds, the 109 managed to achieve a combat climb and close to range on the spitfire. This CLEARLY demonstrates that it is a superior climber.

[LG1.Farber]

@Pstyle, the only way to down a spit is water cooler or oil cooler and wait or kill the pilot.... Hence you see so many guys flying the E1 rather than the E4... - those that know better anyway. Not that the E4 is pants, far from it but the E1 and E4 is a different shooting stlye. The E1 you need a good 3 second burst or more on target all the way through to cripple an aircraft. You will often find yourself pilot killing with the E4 when the explosive rounds hitting the wing root and the splash damage harms the pilot. Howerer the wings dont generally ever come off a spit... Not like a Hurricane or 109.

As you will see cannons are not the bees knees, go and see how many people fly the E3... Hardly any, because its low volocity cannon with its low cyclic rate means your target more than likely flies though the rounds and you miss, even from dead six...


In my experience spitfire pilots no longer give way on head ons, in fact some pilots actually avoid your fire and ram you because they know that the spit will take virtually no damage and the 109 pilot and aircraft will be totally destroyed! The was a post on 1c where someone had dumped the DM values from the spit and 109 and it was something like 109 wing structure 60, spit 100.... Although I cant remember the actual figures and it would be worth finding the post to see the true picture...


Back to FM's. Turn rates, roll rates, drag is all messed up... o and the pitch change is 2 second too slow per hour of change...

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

As for DM, lets not even talk about it. The spit is an IL2... Seeing one with a fuel tank fire or the wings come off is like finding a brown parcel behind a rocking horse! :goofy


Nonsense!
Watch the video your own squad mate made!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFZXYBZm610
It clearly shows a large hole in the spitfire's right wing, (just behind the roundel) which makes rolling much more difficult (nearly impossible on one direction). In addition, the engine cowling comes off and can be seen floating away from the aircraft. There is also damage visible to the leading edge of the left wing. Pause it at 15, 24 and 26 seconds on 1080p definition.

I count less than half a second when the spitfire is in the ammunition, some of which is bursting in the air around it.

The wing doesn't need to fall off because it's already nearly useless.. after a half second burst, not all of which was on target.

[LG1.Farber]

Damage is calculated on the firers machine... if you can see it and you shoot it, in a correct solution, you will hit! - just because the other guys connection is messed up it doesnt matter... Ive had spits shoot at me where the rounds passed to the side and heard the thud of damage and been taken out of the fight / shotdown.

If your connection to the server is poor you will be out of sink not the firer...

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

In my experience spitfire pilots no longer give way on head ons, in fact some pilots actually avoid your fire and ram you because they know that the spit will take virtually no damage and the 109 pilot and aircraft will be totally destroyed!
..

This is not how the ram system works. As far as I'm aware the game tries to work out who it thought was the aggressor was, based on their momentum at the point of impact. In this case, one of the two aircraft will almost always emerge un-damaged. The game only destroyed the "aggressor". I think the game does this wrong. It should damage BOTH aircraft if they collide mid-air.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Damage is calculated on the firers machine... if you can see it and you shoot it, in a correct solution, you will hit! - just because the other guys connection is messed up it doesnt matter... Ive had spits shoot at me where the rounds passed to the side and heard the thud of damage and been taken out of the fight / shotdown.

How do you know ALL the rounds passed to the side?
What was his convergence?
Did he have tracers on ALL guns, so you could see all 8 of the lines of bullets?

I can hit a 109 by firing to his left or his right, if the 109 is BEYOND my convergence. The bullets cross over and diverge.

[LG1.Farber]

This is not how the ram system works. As far as I'm aware the game tries to work out who it thought was the aggressor was, based on their momentum at the point of impact. In this case, one of the two aircraft will almost always emerge un-damaged. The game only destroyed the "aggressor". I think the game does this wrong. It should damage BOTH aircraft if they collide mid-air.


I would be willing to test this with you to prove this.


How do you know the rounds passed to the side?
What was his convergence?
Did he have tracers on ALL guns, so you could see all 8 of the lines of bullets?

I can hit a 109 by firing to his left or his right, if the 109 is BEYOND my convergence. The bullets cross over and diverge.

Yes... You can see it when it happens to you too right?



I've had my wings shot off by 109 rounds that passed about 5 to 10 meters away because they explode in mid-air. A spitfire simply cannot do this, it does not have that ammo type!


Only you know when this happens?

[Continu0]

This is a good video. It shows how a 109 can shoot down a diving spitfire within 30 seconds of becoming airborne, AND when the spitfire has the same general vector. At 2 minutes 4 seconds, the 109 managed to achieve a combat climb and close to range on the spitfire. This CLEARLY demonstrates that it is a superior climber.

That`s not correct... As long as we don`t know at which settings both planes were flying, you can`t say anything about that... Maybe you are right about the fact you stated, but your argument is invalid...

Futhermore, Mr MK X and =aeros= are "special cases". They are very very experienced pilots (afaik) and it should be possible for average 109-Pilots to bring down average spit-Pilots...

But.... aaaargh, what are we arguing, It won`t change anything, I will stay flying blue and try and try and try... We don`t have a choice...

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

That`s not correct... As long as we don`t know at which settings both planes were flying, you can`t say anything about that... Maybe you are right about the fact you stated, but your argument is invalid...

No it's not invalid. It's invalid when it's demonstrated to be so. By the way, I did say "as far as I can tell".. I'm not stating this as fact, which is, in many respects beyond the point of this thread anyways.
It happens so, so many times that when two aircraft collide, one of them is not damaged. There must be something going on in the way the game calculates where the damage get's allocated.

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

I agree with P on the convergence settings. I would reccomend that you go up in a spit fire and exploit it. Learn your enemys aircraft just as you have learned your own and you will be quite surprised. Dont complain because your tactics are no longer as effective as they once were. Spits fly in groups for a reason...

[Continu0]

This is not how the ram system works. As far as I'm aware the game tries to work out who it thought was the aggressor was, based on their momentum at the point of impact. In this case, one of the two aircraft will almost always emerge un-damaged. The game only destroyed the "aggressor". I think the game does this wrong. It should damage BOTH aircraft if they collide mid-air.

+1, my experience as well.

[LG1.Farber]

Try wing to wing, then engine to engine or wing to engine...

[Continu0]

No it's not invalid. It's invalid when it's demonstrated to be so. By the way, I did say "as far as I can tell".. I'm not stating this as fact, which is, in many respects beyond the point of this thread anyways.
It happens so, so many times that when two aircraft collide, one of them is not damaged. There must be something going on in the way the game calculates where the damage get's allocated.

Oops, my bad english got me there... sorry. Would "void" describe an argument better that does "not work?"

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

I would be willing to test this with you to prove this.
Yes, I think that would be a good idea. I'd like to know how it works too. nice idea!



Yes... You can see it when it happens to you too right?

I don't believe there are spitfire pilots with 8 guns of tracer online.
Here's how to kill a 109 from the side, it requires a short convergence and a long range to target.

1747

The 109, in front, will see all the tracers going away to his right. From the 109 pilot's perspective this kill should be impossible. But it's not. It's just very hard to do!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

I would be willing to test this with you to prove this...

ok, good idea.
I can jump on the ACG dogfight server now if you want to test the collision thing..

[LG1.Farber]

Great, what will be the tests?

Faster spit, wing to wing
Faster 109, wing to wing
Faster spit, nose to nose
Faster 109, nose to nose

Didnt TF already do this stuff??

Do you have fraps? We can both fraps, it will be an excellent perspective comparison. Ill make a map... btw new acg ts pw is acg

[ATAG_Bliss]

I know many people have their favorite "ride" in almost any sim, but I'm probably one of the few exceptions. I bought the sim to fly em all.

I remember starting out in the spitfire or "easy fire" as it was happily nicknamed in 46. It IMO was the easiest plane for shooting down anyone. I could get a quick burst a few times during a sortie and have easily shot down 5 or 6 109s/190s. Now occasionally you ran into a 109 ace, using tactics, teamwork etc., but a slow 109 in old IL2 = easy pray for spitfire.

Then I decided to fly blue and learn the 109/190s etc. I soon found out how difficult it was as the tactics to effectively use the 109/190 requires a huge amount of patience. I used to take off in an A4/A3 with a 75gallon drop tank for all the time I was sitting perched, just waiting for my opportunity to strike. While in the spitfires, I would literally charge straight after my opponent. Needless to say, this takes 100's of hours to master.

Fast forward to IL2COD - I probably have 1000 hours on the red side and another 1000 hours on the blue in IL2COD. I have yet to witness 109 drivers "having" to fly like we "had to" fly in old IL2. 109's are on the deck because they can get away with it. You are on the deck in 46 you are dead meat. And even with this scenario happening all the time, I still hear 109 drivers complain about being able to do nothing against some of the spitfires. All I can say to those 109 drivers, is they need to revisit the old game a bit and try flying the same way. Spitys with cannons will eat you for breakfast.

In IL2COD, I've never felt virtually scared as a 109 pilot. Maybe it's because I was soo used to old IL2 and the patience and restraint it took waiting for the perfect dive, remembering not to get slow, to always have the altitude advantage, or w/e other reasons, but if I want to never come close to even getting shot at in a 109 in Cliffs, I can do it 100% of the time. When the uber SpitIIa of old was in there, that's the closest I felt to an old IL2 experience as a 109 driver.

People talk about climb rates, but don't realize that there's much more to it. While a spitfire and 109 are fairly close in this regard (what we have), the biggest thing is the 109 can climb at a much more sustained angle of attack. Those 109 drivers trying to "floor it" and climb at a sustained high rate of speed will find the spitfire keeping up. Angle your attack more and you'll find a spitfire will soon be climbing directly below you (meaning the 109 is much higher than the spitty, but climbing with a much slower TAS) This is the advantage of the 109 that many fail to use. The 109 can EASILY outclimb any plane in the sim, but this is only done with a slower TAS and higher angle of attack. Even the uber SpitIIa of old could not climb at that angle. So what's left is the spitfire, if in a constant climb trying to keep up with you, soon finds themselves not only way below you but you bordering on being in front of your position as well. They must eventually turn or end up being in the perfect spot for you to nose down and shoot them.

But tactics aside, as a flyer of both, if you are getting killed in a 109, it is your fault. It is by far the greater of the fighter in IL2COD. With that said though, it does require a skilled pilot to be able to use it properly. It requires patience (like old IL2) and requires a huge sense of situational awareness. You really do have to know what is 10km around you in all directions and know how, when, and where to properly engage. It is the epitome of controlling the fight, but only if you really know how to use it.

I know it won't happen, but if most of the 109 drivers had as many hours in the RAF side as the did the blue, you would know exactly everything I said is correct. With how pathetic the spitfire/hurricanes are from reality in this sim, I must really give a huge amount of kudos to all the reds that continue to fly them day after day as a huge underdog.

As far as the DM, it is layed out in the sim based exactly where those real life components where, where the control cables really were, were the cooling system really is etc. If those meshes of damage gets hit, that system will be toast just like in RL. The 109 has some critical components, especially in the control area, that are not very well protected.

As far as shooting down spits, I have no problems what so ever. Dead six is clearly the worst spot to engage, but I can usually shoot out control cables or kill a pilot with an E4 on one single deflection burst. E1 is considerably easier because of the amount of ammo being thrown at it. I know everything I said is probably pointless, as most have their one and only "ride". But take it from someone with a huge and equal amount of time in both sides. The 109 rules the roost by a HUGE margin in Cliffs.

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

Well said!! We dont mind being the underdog, so long as we know how to beat the tactics and performance issues that the 109's use against us. Very good article!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Thanks Bliss, and interesting and enlightening read. I have, by the way posted a quick summary of the testing that Folmar, Farber and I just conducted.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?3240-Some-quick-news-on-collision-testing-)

Yes everyone, we might argue, but we are comrades, red and blue irrespective, and we do actually cooperate with each other ;)

[LG1.Farber]

I disagree. Bliss I have not seen you online for ages- because you are too busy testing or because we have different time zones or you work away from home out of crappy motels with crappy internet 5 days a week (last time we spoke you had choppy TS3 and you complained about this!). - I dont care. You cant compare IL2 1946 fb + mods to clod. For a start IL2fb + mods was mostly 43/44 and 45... What we have here in clod is 1940. The game is totally different in CEM, the atmosphere, physics... Who cares who many hours who has in what... 1000 hours of banging your head off the wall is not the same as 200 hours learning... So it would depend on what and how fast you learned and if even what your learned and what I leaned and what everyone else learned was even any good!? - but thats a separate thread... All of which is not calculable... and irrelevant.

This is my opinion, please keep the SS-Bliss Battle ship faced astern or forward end on. No need to fire the broadside this day :)

Lets talk about the fidelity which I hear TF is trying to fix!

I had a really good chat with Pstyle and we had a laugh too! He was a really nice guy on comms, as forum names often are in the "voice" (flesh - almost), Im not going to draw conclusions as I think everybody can and will draw their own... So as agreed, here we go:

Please watch in HD and full screen and feel free to laugh your backside off... This is how all forum disputes should end! :thumbsup:


http://youtu.be/29iMKIZcGWM

The Grass is always greener on the other side - or some people are cheating... Is it all in our minds or are we all virtual aces?!

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

spits out turn and hold energy way too much. very common to do a head on, have the spit pass you, turn on your six, chase you down, boom dead. also when u can name the spawn campers without even being near the base, thats pretty sad.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

....The 109 rules the roost by a HUGE margin in Cliffs.

This is kind of why the mod scares me. Because that simply isn't true if you flown any amount of time with the last patch. 109 is still better but not by that great a margin. If you've never been scared flying in a 109, then you're flying against the wrong people.

[ATAG_Bliss]

This is kind of why the mod scares me. Because that simply isn't true if you flown any amount of time with the last patch. 109 is still better but not by that great a margin. If you've never been scared flying in a 109, then you're flying against the wrong people.

Well grab the RIGHT spit pilot and I'll fly a 109. We'll start coalt (whatever altitude they wish), and only after we pass each other can we turn on each other. I can with almost 100% certainty guarantee no bullets will ever hit my plane. And given enough time I will be diving and taking shots (aka have the advantage the entire time)

I've flown the last patch plenty. Yes I haven't been online lately because I'm running and testing a completely different version than you guys use. But the 2000 hours I spoke of before were aimed at the conversation at hand (online performance) meaning that's where I flew them. I have many more hours in the sim. When you really know your opponent's planes as good as the one's you are flying you also know all their weaknesses. I would like to see one video of a spitfire shooting down a 109 where the 109 was at an advantage (and didn't lose it to begin with by burning speed, looping to fast, turning etc.) to begin with. Because if I want to, I will never get shot at in a 109 in Cliffs.

And the comparison's, as I said, between IL246 and Clod were about the tactics between a 109 and spit. I already know the CEM and all the rest is different? This isn't exactly new knowledge right?

Now, back to the points at hand. The 109 climbs better than any RAF plane in the game (at all altitudes), and when I mean better, I mean a sharper angle of sustained attack which the spit/hurri can simply not do. So if you are getting shot at you have put yourself in a position to get shot at. As with the old game, the tactics of flying a 109 in the old game leads to success.

And one sided pilots will never understand this until they've played and learned their opponent's planes as well as the one's they are flying.

So anytime we want to make a video of you guys flying any spit in the game in the situation I spoke of (basically starting at a disadvantage for a 109 pilot) let me know and we'll record the outcome. I won't get touched.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Good to see you're so confidant in your abilities. Let's set something up.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Well it's not really about my abilities. It's just super easy to pull your stick back and climb at the proper angle of attack. While all the people were complaining about the old SpitIIa (the super uber one) on the server trying to get away with speed, I just used my advantage. Steep angle of attack in a climb. If you want to see how awfully obvious this is by itself, we should just start side by side (spit and 109) and watch how soon the spit is either conking out (engine dieing) trying to maintain the same angle, or watch how much faster the 109 goes higher. It will probably be 500m difference in less than 1 minute.

The problem is most 109 drivers I have seen try to climb around 275kph IAS. When in reality fastest climb (in the current version of the game) is around 200kph which is a massive angle of attack.

We can get this test out of the way in less than a minute tbh.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

The Grass is always greener on the other side - or some people are cheating... Is it all in our minds or are we all virtual aces?!


ive asked in pm's about crt or vac secure or something but nobody has replied. will atag implement something if possible in the mod?

[ATAG_Bliss]

The Grass is always greener on the other side - or some people are cheating... Is it all in our minds or are we all virtual aces?!


ive asked in pm's about crt or vac secure or something but nobody has replied. will atag implement something if possible in the mod?

Yes - the patch will be secure / tamper proof, unlike kegetys which lets you change certain SFS files (current version and prior version of the sim) Those, if any, that were tampering will get a huge lesson on how to really fly in the patch. I would suspect there are people out there that have tweaked their own FM, but that will never happen again with our patch.

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

I have less hours in a Spit than a 109, but I can say with 100% certainty over the course of the last campaign we did, that the 109's cooling system is definitely more vulnerable than the Spit. So the question is...was/is that historically accurate?

[ATAG_Bliss]

I have less hours in a Spit than a 109, but I can say with 100% certainty over the course of the last campaign we did, that the 109's cooling system is definitely more vulnerable than the Spit. So the question is...was/is that historically accurate?

It's not that it's really more vulnerable (it leaked just as much as prior patches), the difference is that overheat/coolant loss is actually modeled in. You surely remember early on in this sim, where you could fly for hours on end while leaking coolant? The radiators, themselves are massive in a 109, and are fairly easy to hit from a flanking position with wing mounted machine guns. It doesn't take much coolant loss to cause any engine to overheat. Air does not have the density required to cool internally (aka low coolant, quick loss of an engine when leaking coolant)

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/cooling/f-k_coolant.flap.plan.jpg

As far as some other damages, this should give you an idea of the size and location of the elevator, rudder, flaps, aileron control lines, battery, radio and oxygen tank. Virtually the entire 109 is a DM (as all the planes in this sim).

[LG1.Farber]

Well it's not really about my abilities. It's just super easy to pull your stick back and climb at the proper angle of attack. While all the people were complaining about the old SpitIIa (the super uber one) on the server trying to get away with speed, I just used my advantage. Steep angle of attack in a climb. If you want to see how awfully obvious this is by itself, we should just start side by side (spit and 109) and watch how soon the spit is either conking out (engine dieing) trying to maintain the same angle, or watch how much faster the 109 goes higher. It will probably be 500m difference in less than 1 minute.

The problem is most 109 drivers I have seen try to climb around 275kph IAS. When in reality fastest climb (in the current version of the game) is around 200kph which is a massive angle of attack.

We can get this test out of the way in less than a minute tbh.

Woooo wooo wwoo! Are you sure about these figures? 275kmh might be around best climb rate but 200kmh?! Eh? You wont be doing much climbing there! You would barley be able to keep level. As for climbing next to a spit, in the 109 you have to be sure you have the advantage in the fight before you even commit. You have to know that you can out climb the guy with zero problems - do or do not, there is no try! And you'd better keep more than 2km altitude in case he is better than you! :recon: You must watch out for the spitfire!

What about the acceleration of the airframe in a dive? I think thats fubar'd too. The 109 with the higher wingloading should be able to accelerate quicker in a dive... Its not all top speeds and climbing. Roll rate, sustained turn, climb, dive - everything you can think of is a factor in the fight.

Right now there is only one thing you can do in the 109, BnZ- get the bounce (if they guy doesnt hear you coming), now remember this is the E model and is one of the most maneuverable. :doh:

[ATAG_Bliss]

Woooo wooo wwoo! Are you sure about these figures? 275kmh might be around best climb rate but 200kmh?! Eh? You wont be doing much climbing there! You would barley be able to keep level. As for climbing next to a spit, in the 109 you have to be sure you have the advantage in the fight before you even commit. You have to know that you can out climb the guy with zero problems - do or do not, there is no try! And you'd better keep more than 2km altitude in case he is better than you! :recon: You must watch out for the spitfire!

What about the acceleration of the airframe in a dive? I think thats fubar'd too. The 109 with the higher wingloading should be able to accelerate quicker in a dive... Its not all top speeds and climbing. Roll rate, sustained turn, climb, dive - everything you can think of is a factor in the fight.

Right now there is only one thing you can do in the 109, BnZ- get the bounce (if they guy doesnt hear you coming), now remember this is the E model and is one of the most maneuverable. :doh:

In the case of getting higher faster, more angle of attack and less speed results in a much higher climb rate while you are actually going slower - talking current steam version of the sim. The result is any spit with CO-E will not be able to match your climb as their engines/airframes can not come close to the same angle of attack. They will fall out of the sky / stall / engines quit trying to match you (all in a matter of seconds)

As I've already stated earlier, it's obvious you must be the one that starts with the advantage. This is how the 109 has always been against any plane that can perform sustained turns better. It's no different than old 46 planes (even the BoB era ones). Those same tactics apply. As I stated, the easy fire - talking the old game here (even the neg g one's) will rip a 109 to shreds if he screws up / gets slow etc.

IL2 online used to consist of spitfires lone wolfing everywhere because they could, while the Blues were always using team work / drag and bag because their advantage was always speed, climb, and dive. I like everyone else I know, always grabbed the biggest drop tank they could in the Blue stuff because I know I could be at altitude for a few hours before I decided to even make a single bounce. It was always about patience. And the E with it's wing mounted cannons did not roll as well as a G with the one in the nose from almost everything I've read. And G pilots in the old game (like the G-2) certainly didn't run straight after the enemy, like the opposing spits did in return. Unless IL2 and every single thing I've read about the 109 is completely wrong, it's advantage was never in sustained turning, and definitely not while going very slow. If you keep the speed up, you will never be touched. That's why I presented a scenario where the 109 even started out in a bad situation (co - e and co - alt) and how easily you can still get away from that.

About the things the 109 should or shouldn't be able to do in the current steam version, I agree it's FUBAR, but that doesn't change the fact that the 109 is still far superior. If you've gotten into a position to where you are getting shot at in the 109 currently, it is your fault. When you have a better service ceiling and climb, you can be untouched the entire time you play if you choose to do so. The hard part is having good situational awareness. When I play online I sacrifice lots of eye candy so I can see every single dot in the sky with the server dot range. Almost every single thing I've heard on TS when someone is getting shot at by a spit etc., after being asked where are you to help, is time and time again people being 500 ft off the ground, looping, turning, rolling, basically everything in their power to screw up in the 1st place. I'm not trying to say I'm a good pilot, but I know very well I can fly and never be harmed if I want to. The hard thing with Cliffs is situational awareness. 109s get in trouble because they are getting bounced from contacts they never even knew they were there. This is also an obvious problem with the sim.

[LG1.Farber]

Its not always spits and 109's though, or it wasn't in 1946. There were P40's and Yak 1's. Give me Bf109 and P40 or Yak 1 opponents and I will be a happy man, (the migg 3 is fun also when you dive away and he follows you and his plywood wings rip off at 600kmh....) Both of these were very much like 109's in the way they fought and the fights were very different from a spitfire. You could get in close and scissor and do things you would'nt do with a spit.

What allot of red pilots dont realise is that they can do our game too! They can do the BnZ and when it starts to fail or they make a mistake they can instantly go back to TnB. Most of them dont though and often will quickly through away an energy advantage and go straight to TnB. In the 109, not only must you get in close but you must hit and down your opponant quickly, not every 109 Driver can shoot like Mr X, I know I cant and unless he is canopy closed and flying along "fat dumb and happy" or my wimgman is dragging him then its a long drawn out process and you either let him go or you chase after him. In RL you would let him go - fine but I actually want to do some fighting aswell in the sim and get some trigger time. So you have no option when playing public. You have to go in sometimes or there would be nothing to do except look around. I dont know who these 109 drivers are that go in at 1k and fight to the death but I wish they would get some alt to bring the reds up so those of us who actual wanted to fly rite could have some targets too.

I never took a Bierflasche in 1946. 100% Fuel was enough. I know some people took one and then 25% fuel so when they dropped it they could fight and still get home though and be nice and light.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Spits in Clod aren't so good at booming:


https://vimeo.com/52493047
https://vimeo.com/52493047

430 mph = 688 kmh, which doesn't compare well with the 109's maximum dive speed of 750 kmh. Spits also don't zoom very well with the barn door under its wing known as a radiator. So, if you miss on your throttled-back dive on a 109, you'll find yourself out-zoomed in a climb by your 109 quarry in very short order. I boom frequently when escorting our hapless AI Blennie and Wellie formations, but if I miss I don't stick around for the zoom part.

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

LOL It appears that the spit is a great zoom and boomer from what I can tell from that video!!! I can't honestly belive this conversation is still going on. Everyone knows the 109 is the superior aircraft in this game granted it has its weaknesses. I don't know why there are still the holdout Blue pilots that won't admit to it.

[LG1.Farber]

Snapper, when you BnZ you dont attack at the fastest speed possible, you just maintain enough momentum to escape afterwards. Your doing it wrong.

I cant honestly believe that the victim mentally still exists in red pilots from when the red flight models were terrible. Its the same old conclusion " its only a 109's fault if he gets shot down, if a red pilot gets shot down he never had a chance to begin with." - which isn't true.

Anyway lets hope the mod brings better things and addresses the last bit of polish. I'd love to stay and discuss this but my Bf109 Recognition manual just turned up so I am off to read about the 109E4/N shown off a few days ago!

S!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

I cant honestly believe that the victim mentally still exists in red pilots from when the red flight models were terrible. Its the same old conclusion " its only a 109's fault if he gets shot down, if a red pilot gets shot down he never had a chance to begin with." - which isn't true.


Steady. No-one is saying that. 1761

Here's a more accurate summary of what we are saying:
In a 1v1 situation it's generally a 109 pilot's own fault if he gets shot down, for letting himself get low on energy with respect to the spitfire. If a red pilot gets shot down he should realise that his only advantage (all other things being equal with respect to location vis-a-vis the combat area) is the sustained turn, and he should use that defensively until his mates show up. If he did not do that, then it's his own fault

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Snapper, when you BnZ you dont attack at the fastest speed possible, you just maintain enough momentum to escape afterwards. Your doing it wrong.


Momentum is mass x velocity. (p=mv)
The two aircraft, being of similar mass, means the one that can achieve the greater velocity therefore has the potential for the greatest momentum.

Therefore, if your statement is true that [[you just maintain enough momentum to escape afterwards]]; then it is also true that at the point of zoom, the aircraft with the greatest speed potential has the greatest escape potential. Therefore the 109 has the advantage over the spitfire in this manoeuvre, if they both carried it out side-by-side.

Taking into account Bliss' comment that, with a higher angle of attack and lower speed the 109 will out climb the spitfire, then you have a double whammy situation whereby the 109 will have greater potential for escape at H=minimum and then will continue to hold that advantage in the zoom, provided it maintains a higher angle of attack.

The scenario that dis-favours the 109 is where:
1. The 109 pilot chooses to zoom at lower airspeed than possible (thus not converting the maximum of his potential energy into kinetic energy during the boom)
2. The 109 pilot chooses to exit at a low angle of attack and provides the spitfire (provided the spit is chasing at similar airspeed - which generally would require the 109 already to have failed at 1 above) the opportunity to gain a gravitational potential energy advantage in the short term (by gaining more height quicker).
3. The 109 pilot has full fuel and ammo load, whilst the spitfire is low on both. In this scenario it MIGHT be possible for the spitfire to enjoy greater potential for momentum at the start of the climb. If someone has the fully loaded, and fully empty weights to and (as used in the game) I can give you the precise potential momentum of each type.

For the record, of course spitfires can BnZ! I use the BnZ in the spitfire. If I see a 109 below me, and he looks unprotected, of course I'm going to consider dropping on him.
However I will not be able to achieve as high an energy state afterwards. Also, given that I can only achieve 430mph airspeed, I will only be able to exit at 430mph.
HOWEVER, warning to spitfire pilots who BnZ - IF the 109 is already in a shallow dive (which you might not be able to tell from above), and he then increase this dive, he could quite quickly achieve an airspeed close to, or greater than the diving spitfire can achieve. If he does this, then suddenly the spitfire's BnZ advantage is gone!
The 109 can now wait for me to climb, and he will in fact be able to catch me. That is why spitfires should only BnZ 109s which are ALREADY below 1000ft AGL/ASL. This prevents the 109 from diving to get his airspeed up.

For all the above reasons, I conclude that the 109 is a MORE capable aircraft at this manoeuvre.

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

S! What did the Polish have to do with this again??? I think they like the russians better...

[ATAG_Torian]

I have to agree with Bliss. While I am a red pilot at heart I do jump in blue planes every now and then for giggles especially if red outnumbers blue. A few nites back I jumped in a 109 E4 and shot down 3 Spit IIas and a couple of Wellies in 1 sortie. A couple of hits from those minegeschoss shells and if it hasn't been PK'd it will be easy meat for ur MGs. And as Bliss has stated, u just nose up in a higher climb angle even at a reduced TAS and no Brit fighter will sustain a climb with u if starting from a similar "e". All that being said the Spit has it's strengths and the challenge of getting a victory in a Spit is, for me, part of the fun.

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

All that being said the Spit has it's strengths and the challenge of getting a victory in a Spit is, for me, part of the fun.

Same with me!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Same with me!

isn't it!

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

Random!

[ATAG_Snapper]

Farber said,

"Anyway lets hope the mod brings better things and addresses the last bit of polish."

Well, on that we can agree, mate! :thumbsup:

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

There it is again, what is up with the Polish lol? I didn't think they liked the Germans to much...

[ATAG_Snapper]

There it is again, what is up with the Polish lol? I didn't think they liked the Germans to much...

Hey, you're right. Worth Czech-ing out! :D

(Sorry 310 Squadron -- couldn't resist! LOL)

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXf1bhEEXd0
stop at 1:11

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

I dont understand, what is: bnz (boom and zoom?)tbz, tas, dm (damage?), and fm?

[ATAG_Snapper]

I dont understand, what is: bnz (boom and zoom?)tbz, tas, dm (damage?), and fm?

bnz = boom and zoom
tbz = turn and burn
tas = True Air Speed
dm = Damage Modelling
fm = Flight Modelling

:)

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

thanks for help, Snapper. very interesting discussion:thumbsup:

[ATAG_Snapper]

My pleasure, mate! :D This is a good thread you started, lots of interesting info and points of view. :thumbsup:

I must say, though, that as a Red pilot i do feel quite victimized by the Blue pilots. They don't fight fairly, nor are they sporting. All too frequently they will dive down out of the sun -- making it very difficult for us Red pilots to spot them -- they then shoot at us as if meaning to hit us, then climb back up into the sun again. Sometimes they do it twice! :stunned:

Given the clear superiority of the Blue fighters over their RAF counterparts, would it really be too much to ask to first, perhaps, fly in front of us and waggle their wings, clearly indicating their desire to engage in a fight? They could even do this wing waggling out of range of our piddly-ass .303's (or 200 meters -- whichever is closer). In the interest of fair play, it's not such an unreasonable request, do you think?

Ah well, the upcoming patch will be rendering all our planes historically accurate. What excuses will we Red pilots have then? :ind:

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

LOL It appears that the spit is a great zoom and boomer from what I can tell from that video!!! I can't honestly belive this conversation is still going on. Everyone knows the 109 is the superior aircraft in this game granted it has its weaknesses. I don't know why there are still the holdout Blue pilots that won't admit to it.

My serious question to you is what exactly should the 109 be better at? Do you want accuracy or balance? Are you saying the 109 wasn't the superior aircraft in the summer of 1940?

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

I would like to see accuracy, I know for a fact that the 109 was the superior aircraft in 1940. It historically could out run, out climb, and out dive a spitfire. I want the game to be what it was like during the war, not some even playing field for everyone. All sides at the time were trying to come up with better systems to use in the war and thats what we should be doing is following those footsteps. You may think I'm just playing into what you want to hear from this but ask the people that know me and you will quickly find out that I am one of the most avid pushers for historical accuracy within my squadron. The planes werent drastically far off in the real world as far as i can tell and quite often it came down to fighter tactics, or the number of planes that went up. Georing said himself he cannot just send one staffel up with the bombers he had to send two or more just to deal with the agility of the british fighters and the british resolve. We were out numbered, out gunned, and backed into a corner. The fighter command quickly realised that things needed to change, the British changed there formations, the number of fighters it sent up, and there overall tactics while engaging enemy aircraft. All these thought processes I would like to see brought into the game. Not an even playing field. Thanks for bringing that up by the way S!

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

Ah well, the upcoming patch will be rendering all our planes historically accurate. What excuses will we Red pilots have then? :ind:

Can't wait for that!

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

My pleasure, mate! :D This is a good thread you started, lots of interesting info and points of view. :thumbsup:

I must say, though, that as a Red pilot i do feel quite victimized by the Blue pilots. They don't fight fairly, nor are they sporting. All too frequently they will dive down out of the sun -- making it very difficult for us Red pilots to spot them -- they then shoot at us as if meaning to hit us, then climb back up into the sun again. Sometimes they do it twice! :stunned:

Given the clear superiority of the Blue fighters over their RAF counterparts, would it really be too much to ask to first, perhaps, fly in front of us and waggle their wings, clearly indicating their desire to engage in a fight? They could even do this wing waggling out of range of our piddly-ass .303's (or 200 meters -- whichever is closer). In the interest of fair play, it's not such an unreasonable request, do you think?

Ah well, the upcoming patch will be rendering all our planes historically accurate. What excuses will we Red pilots have then? :ind:

snapper, my experience says that German makes with sportsmanship and fairness no kills. I've read the book by Erich Hartmann. (Eastfront 352 kills). 80% of the downed pilots have not seen him. Without diving insidious attack the bf 109 is a toothless tiger (my experience!)
I would fight so keen sportsman, but it is me or my airplane too bad. writes but purely in the server rules with that one wounded airman must be granted by wing wiggle free escort back home. :thumbsup: (but the shooter get no points)
What is this for a patch? In Germany, we know nothing about it. how can you get a patch if you do not have the source code?

[ATAG_Snapper]

snapper, my experience says that German makes with sportsmanship and fairness no kills. I've read the book by Erich Hartmann. (Eastfront 352 kills). 80% of the downed pilots have not seen him. Without diving insidious attack the bf 109 is a toothless tiger (my experience!)
I would fight so keen sportsman, but it is me or my airplane too bad. writes but purely in the server rules with that one wounded airman must be granted by wing wiggle free escort back home. :thumbsup: (but the shooter get no points)
What is this for a patch? In Germany, we know nothing about it. how can you get a patch if you do not have the source code?

Heh, so I guess that means you won't be flying in front of my Spitfire waggling your wings? Dang!!! :)

You are correct that the Clod source code has not been released. Nonetheless, an international group of programmers, modellers, resource information researchers, and testers all came together as a volunteer force and named themselves Team Fusion. Devising their own tools and adapting existing ones, they have cleverly been able to figure out a great deal in fixing the broken bits, and adjusting other parts that have been out-of-whack. The top priority was bring the Flight Models of every aircraft within historical specification. Additionally, many other aspects of this sim have been worked on with great success.

I'm not on Team Fusion. Like you, I can only wait until this patch is released by TF to know all that has been done. We are all excited by this, and please let your squad mates that this is happening. We don't know the exact date of patch release. There are many parts of it that are still being heavily tested by many team members. Keep visiting here to get any updates. Hopefully patch release day will be soon! :thumbsup:

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

LOL It appears that the spit is a great zoom and boomer from what I can tell from that video!!! I can't honestly belive this conversation is still going on. Everyone knows the 109 is the superior aircraft in this game granted it has its weaknesses. I don't know why there are still the holdout Blue pilots that won't admit to it.

Hey now, lets not get so one-sided here. This is supposed to be a debate that hopefully grows appreciation, knowledge and wisdom on both sides about their own A/C and the others.

On THAT premise, 5./JG27 Lopp and I did some testing yesterday. Now I am not saying this was fully scientific, but bear with me. I want constructive comments/questions. none of this BS and bluster stuff. For the record im a pilot in real life so this is NOT my only exposure to how A/C work.

1) We met head-on, as near to full level-alt speed as possible and passed each other, per ATAG_Bliss's scenario. At which point we zoomed straight up. I was able to climb about 300ft higher before we both tumbled (using constantly increasing pitch to 12 oclock) as we climbed. after we tumbled the Spit regained his energy much more quickly and as I turned into him to keep him off my 6 he rolled onto me from about a 240 degree offset without losing much energy at all. Took a shot and hit my rads.

2) The next time instead of a straight climb, i turned to climb away in the 109 and the Spit climbed to chase. we started at 2km (about 6.5k ft) Initially, I was climbing at a shallow angle at 320kmh. I let the torque effect put me into a shallow left hand bank, so as to get maximum aspd/climb ratio (not fighting the torque effect with rudder streamlines the A/C). At this point the Spit was .67. After a bit I was about to outclimb him and he was at 1.15. HOWEVER, once I rolled wings level, and gradually put in a steeper angle of climb so as to achieve 200kmh and a much higher climb rate he caught me very quickly. ALSO we were now at about 5k and his performance was definitely taking over (not necessarily a model deficiency as at higher alts the Spit started to gain superiority, just saying I recognize this). He was back within .70 in about 2 seconds. and within .50 within about 4 seconds. He took a shot and hit my rads.

3) This time we met head-on and I didnt climb much at all. Simply continued to zoom away while he turned and climbed. Once I had good separation (about 2.8) I began a gradual climb and turned gently around. He was already closing fast and had a good E state, so I knew i had to make him miss. I used the one definite advantage a 109 has and as he turned harder and harder to follow I gauged his angle and push negative pitch to disappear below him. It worked and his shots went over me. However, I was obviously now a bit slow and I rolled under him to gain speed while he could see me. He snap rolled 300 degrees in a flash at low speed (he had pulled up to find me) and took a shot as i dove away. Hit my rads.

4) By this point I was starting to think that 1v1, CoAlt, and with two pretty evenly matched pilots, I could not beat a Spit in a 109. But i wanted to prove that wrong. So as we came head on I dove to gain speed, separation, and some time. He rolled to follow. I defensively barrel-rolled into a climb, decreasing prop pitch, and pulled into a tight hammerhead at the top, rolling into essentially a very sudden half-cuban 8. That worked as he zoomed past and had no shot. So as I dove away to regain E again, I was trying to think of how I could get on his tail. as he came close (since regaining speed was DEFINITELY not a problem for the Spit) I pulled the same turn to negative G manuever i did before. He missed again and I did a 180 aileron roll to change direction through my current bank, rather than against it (IOT save energy). He rolled THE OTHER WAY (270 degrees), got there first, took a snap shot, hit my rads.

5). Tired of defeat I was thinking desperately how to solve this riddle. So as soon was we met I went into a steady climb to the left (like in example 2), got separation and continued to climb away to 4.9 where i leveled off, hit the WEP and flew away while he fought a G50 that had entered the server and I to fight another day. RIDDLE SOLVED.

Conclusions:
Spit holds and regains energy MUCH more quickly than 109
109 can only outclimb Spits for a little while at lower alts or by 300ft or so on a straight up comparision at head to head.
109 loses rads easily.
5./JG27 Lopp is a pretty good Spit pilot.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Interesting post, Max Schneider.

One aspect in (1) that I didn't understand is why you allowed yourself to stall out after the merge instead of maintaing a steady, steep climb at 200 kmh IAS per Bliss' post. As a Clod Spitfire pilot, this is an oft-repeated scenario where we Spit pilots quickly learn to never climb after a 109 pilot. Even with full open rad, at 12 lbs boost you'll very quickly burn out a Merlin trying to simply match the Rate of Climb of the fast-rising 109. If the Spit pilot reduces boost (throttle) or rpms (pitch), then the Merlin's performance drops off rapidly, reducing the Spit's ROC even further and at the worst possible time -- a 109 above him and hidden in the blinding glare of the sun.

At best the Spit pilot must keep engine and rad settings at optimal (per current Clod FM) to maintain maximum performance at that altitude, and perform a shallow yoyo turn to keep pace laterally with the rising and turning 109, using part of the canopy frame to try to shade the sun and keep sight of the 109. When the 109 starts to drop, the wise Spit pilot has kept his speed to about 200 mph IAS to allow for a well-timed evasion of the 109's tracer, then roll into a pursuit dive after the 109 and make a high-deflection shot as he goes by. Actually, this works quite well if you haven't lost sight of the 109 in the sun. If you have lost sight, you better have a wing mate who can call out the 109's dive to you.

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

I had no chance on the atag server. 've just been shot 4 times again. first I had a 6, I dive down with 700-750 km / h spit after me. spit climb faster and shot me down.
I have to shoot spit 4 times, he goes down. was then on the ground by 500meter, a spit shot me down.
than i attacking wellingtons, 2 spits's shoot me down.
fly precaution to 5000 meters. of 6000meter a spit dive and shoot me down.
and all in a very short time.
There are always too many opponents and the performace of the spit is to strong. against the group tactics I have alone no more chance. I'll soon have to say goodbye too. that has no more meaningful.:ind:

[ATAG_Bliss]

Interesting post, Max Schneider.

One aspect in (1) that I didn't understand is why you allowed yourself to stall out after the merge instead of maintaing a steady, steep climb at 120 kmh IAS per Bliss' post. As a Clod Spitfire pilot, this is an oft-repeated scenario where we Spit pilots quickly learn to never climb after a 109 pilot. Even with full open rad, at 12 lbs boost you'll very quickly burn out a Merlin trying to simply match the Rate of Climb of the fast-rising 109. If the Spit pilot reduces boost (throttle) or rpms (pitch), then the Merlin's performance drops off rapidly, reducing the Spit's ROC even further and at the worst possible time -- a 109 above him and hidden in the blinding glare of the sun.

At best the Spit pilot must keep engine and rad settings at optimal (per current Clod FM) to maintain maximum performance at that altitude, and perform a shallow yoyo turn to keep pace laterally with the rising and turning 109, using part of the canopy frame to try to shade the sun and keep sight of the 109. When the 109 starts to drop, the wise Spit pilot has kept his speed to about 200 mph IAS to allow for a well-timed evasion of the 109's tracer, then roll into a pursuit dive after the 109 and make a high-deflection shot as he goes by. Actually, this works quite well if you haven't lost sight of the 109 in the sun. If you have lost sight, you better have a wing mate who can call out the 109's dive to you.

I look forward to your response, hopefully without spouting the "Red pilot victim" BS from earlier in this thread. :D

I'm a little confused as well. As I've stated earlier a Co - E and Co - Alt encounter with spitfire (a bad situation or what I would say bad choice/disadvantage to the 109 pilot) the only choice you have is to steadily climb in the opposite direction of the opposing spit. Basically it's the #5 choice, I think. Irregardless, the point that I made, which hopefully is learned here, is that on even terms in a head on, a 109 pilot can still get away unscathed following what I said earlier. The circle climbing, turning, rapidly pulling on the stick, bleeding speed etc., will all hurt you.

So if the 109 can get away at an even engagement (obviously he's not gonna get into a turn fight and win) then just imagine when you properly fly a 109 and keep above the enemy, striking attacks from above with speed etc., you are untouchable unless, again, you don't fly it right. Depending on the RAF pilot you might even be able to get away while at a disadvantage as well.

But use the plane right and there is nothing that can come close to touching you. Most people just need to learn that most of the bad situations that 109s are put into are pilot error combined with lack of situational awareness. On the flip side most people aren't patient enough to hang around perched for a few hours waiting for the right moment to make a single pass. So I can't blame anyone for wanting to get into a little action at low level, but those same people should definitely not blame their plane for the pilot's mistakes. The plane still has a massive advantage.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I had no chance on the atag server. 've just been shot 4 times again. first I had a 6, I dive down with 700-750 km / h spit after me. spit climb faster and shot me down.
I have to shoot spit 4 times, he goes down. was then on the ground by 500meter, a spit shot me down.
than i attacking wellingtons, 2 spits's shoot me down.
fly precaution to 5000 meters. of 6000meter a spit dive and shoot me down.
and all in a very short time.
There are always too many opponents and the performace of the spit is to strong. against the group tactics I have alone no more chance. I'll soon have to say goodbye too. that has no more meaningful.:ind:

Fly higher then. The 109 has a higher service ceiling, even in this current patch that a spitfire. Flying at maximum altitude, you will never have a spitfire even be able to point his guns at you.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

1) We met head-on, as near to full level-alt speed as possible and passed each other, per ATAG_Bliss's scenario. At which point we zoomed straight up. I was able to climb about 300ft higher before we both tumbled (using constantly increasing pitch to 12 oclock) as we climbed. .


Ouuufff? Why would you climb into a stall?
Sorry, but that's just poor airmanship.

[LG1.Farber]

....maintaing a steady, steep climb at 200 kmh IAS per Bliss' post.

Can some one show me how this works in a video please? Steep climb at 200 kilometres per hour indicated? - You will be dead!

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

Ouuufff? Why would you climb into a stall?
Sorry, but that's just poor airmanship.

One aspect in (1) that I didn't understand is why you allowed yourself to stall out after the merge instead of maintaing a steady, steep climb at 200 kmh IAS per Bliss' post.

seems there was confusion here. Ok to clarify: that was intentionally done (Spit did the same thing) to see how long our E last and how high we could climb. But secondly, stall fighting is definitely a viable option under certain circumstances but thats not what we were really testing. Lest there was confusion.

now....
best rate of climb, and best angle of climb are TWO different aspds. just to clarify. And neither of those are 200 kmh in the 109. Just FYI.

Regarding Bliss' comments.


I'm a little confused as well. As I've stated earlier a Co - E and Co - Alt encounter with spitfire (a bad situation or what I would say bad choice/disadvantage to the 109 pilot) the only choice you have is to steadily climb in the opposite direction of the opposing spit. Basically it's the #5 choice, I think. Irregardless, the point that I made, which hopefully is learned here, is that on even terms in a head on, a 109 pilot can still get away unscathed following what I said earlier. The circle climbing, turning, rapidly pulling on the stick, bleeding speed etc., will all hurt you.

THIS was not your original argument Bliss. But I will say that generally the first bit is correct. Bad choice to engage in those circumstances.
HOWEVER...and this is where I lose you Red pilots, is here:


But use the plane right and there is nothing that can come close to touching you. Most people just need to learn that most of the bad situations that 109s are put into are pilot error combined with lack of situational awareness. On the flip side most people aren't patient enough to hang around perched for a few hours waiting for the right moment to make a single pass. So I can't blame anyone for wanting to get into a little action at low level, but those same people should definitely not blame their plane for the pilot's mistakes. The plane still has a massive advantage.

The tactical part of this is fundamentally sound, but that generally applies to ANY aircraft. Use it in it's flight envelope and its potential will be maximized. But the BOO HOO cry all day Red pilot stuff is really really starting to get old. The aircraft performance part is the issue. The problem is that these are being convoluted. AIRCRAFT performance and PILOT performance are too different things.

For the record, im a Marine Corps pilot so im not just pulling shit out of my ass here. This is a very very important debate. The amount of mud slinging here is ridiculous and unnecessary. This is about learning and improvement.

[ATAG_Snapper]

"The tactical part of this is fundamentally sound, but that generally applies to ANY aircraft. Use it in it's flight envelope and its potential will be maximized. But the BOO HOO cry all day Red pilot stuff is really really starting to get old. The aircraft performance part is the issue. The problem is that these are being convoluted. AIRCRAFT performance and PILOT performance are too different things.


For the record, im a Marine Corps pilot so im not just pulling shit out of my ass here. This is a very very important debate. The amount of mud slinging here is ridiculous and unnecessary. This is about learning and improvement."

I don't disagree with what you say here. Plus I have tremendous respect for your credentials and the service for your country. I very much agree with the mud slinging must stop. Do you not realize though, in the paragraph immediately above, when you say " But the BOO HOO cry all day Red pilot stuff is really really starting to get old" that roughly half the readership here will find that inflammatory? You can't bait the other side, then expect not to get a negative reaction. Enough of that, please!

[ATAG_Bliss]

now....
best rate of climb, and best angle of climb are TWO different aspds. just to clarify. And neither of those are 200 kmh in the 109. Just FYI.

Regarding Bliss' comments.

Ah I can see the confusion now, I think. I'm generally a high altitude flyer (using the strengths of the 109 at all times) IAS at 1000m compared to 5000m compared to TAS is completely different depending on the altitude. So I should point out that when I am climbing with low IAS my TAS is usually the same as IAS would be closer to the ground. I don't pay much that much attention to TAS but more towards the altimeter, but at that altitude lower 200's IAS is fairly close to the best climb/angle of attack.




THIS was not your original argument Bliss. But I will say that generally the first bit is correct. Bad choice to engage in those circumstances.
HOWEVER...and this is where I lose you Red pilots, is here:



The tactical part of this is fundamentally sound, but that generally applies to ANY aircraft. Use it in it's flight envelope and its potential will be maximized. But the BOO HOO cry all day Red pilot stuff is really really starting to get old. The aircraft performance part is the issue. The problem is that these are being convoluted. AIRCRAFT performance and PILOT performance are too different things.

For the record, im a Marine Corps pilot so im not just pulling shit out of my ass here. This is a very very important debate. The amount of mud slinging here is ridiculous and unnecessary. This is about learning and improvement.

I actually see no mudslinging at all. The server has a dot setting of around 20km. I can see any and all contacts within 20km around me in all directions with my settings. That means I can be in Calais and see contacts at altitude above Hawkinge.

Take Warjunkie's post: He was shot down from dead 6 a few times and also shot down from a spit that bounced him. 1km above him. Had he had the SA he would have never put him in that situation to begin with. That is pilot error. Not a performance issue. Stating that is not some sort of mudslinging at all. If I want to keep every single dot on the screen 20km away from me at all times (AKA dot range), you can do it in a 109 all day long. Yes, I sacrifice eye candy for situational awareness online.

I'm sorry for the confusion. Things that seem obvious to me may not be to others. I will try to fully explain my responses in the future.

Edit to explain further: In other words, I do not allow myself to get into situations where I have the disadvantage. If I know a contact is higher than me I will definitely not go after someone lower just so that high con can come kill me. I don't know the exact number, but I can get visual confirmation at about 2km (friend or foe) only then do I decide what to do. But all the other contacts in a 20km radius are really the deciding factor. That's why the tactical part / situational awareness is almost as important in knowing how to properly fly the plane. And with the current 109 you can decide when to engage or leave. You can't really ever "leave" with a spitfire as the 109 can always catch it.

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

But the BOO HOO cry all day Red pilot stuff is really really starting to get old" that roughly half the readership here will find that inflammatory? You can't bait the other side, then expect not to get a negative reaction. Enough of that, please!

It wasnt inflammatory. Every post prior has pretty much ended with : "109 is better in every way. Its a miracle i survive." Which is obviously false. That is what I am getting at here. I want a 109, Spitfire, and Hurricane (as well as every other plane hopefully) MODELED PER THE A/C PERFORMANCE ABILITIES. Thats it. thats all i want. I know I cant turn with a Spit, I shouldnt be able to. The elliptical wing design ought to give it a roll/turn rate advantage. It should also stall out without warning when you pull too hard. The other part of the elliptical wing. On the other hand, the 109 should climb better, higher and faster and have a more lenient stall threshold and recovery. These are FACTS. not opinions. Im not asking for an F16 here. Im asking for a real Spit, a real Hurri, and a real 109. No whining or crying on EITHER side. But enough is enough. Have some goddamn integrity. Have some goddamn interest in the improvement of the game, not your stats or feelings.

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

Ah I can see the confusion now, I think. I'm generally a high altitude flyer (using the strengths of the 109 at all times) IAS at 1000m compared to 5000m compared to TAS is completely different depending on the altitude. So I should point out that when I am climbing with low IAS my TAS is usually the same as IAS would be closer to the ground. I don't pay much that much attention to TAS but more towards the altimeter, but at that altitude lower 200's IAS is fairly close to the best climb/angle of attack.

Valid clarification. But not what you were originally saying. You said ANY altitude. Im not trying to point out that you said this and not that blah blah blah. Im trying to get the point across that we need to really being dealing in facts/proper terminology/clear concepts and statements. I COMPLETELY agree that SA is #1 rule of flying. in combat or not. Trust me, my flight instructors beat that into my skull more than a few times. The mudslinging is the tone, the blanket statements, and the indiscriminate combination of fiction and fact. Thats why Lopp and I did that test. We wanted to start getting data and comparing. Im not saying Red is all to blame here, blue has plenty of bluster too. But this is at technical discussion about FLYING and AIRCRAFT. so lets keep it to the facts.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Valid clarification. But not what you were originally saying. You said ANY altitude. Im not trying to point out that you said this and not that blah blah blah. Im trying to get the point across that we need to really being dealing in facts/proper terminology/clear concepts and statements. I COMPLETELY agree that SA is #1 rule of flying. in combat or not. Trust me, my flight instructors beat that into my skull more than a few times. The mudslinging is the tone, the blanket statements, and the indiscriminate combination of fiction and fact. Thats why Lopp and I did that test. We wanted to start getting data and comparing. Im not saying Red is all to blame here, blue has plenty of bluster too. But this is at technical discussion about FLYING and AIRCRAFT. so lets keep it to the facts.

Well I stated earlier, (I think in my initial posts) how I fly the 109 (aka always at altitude, perched, even talking about the drop tank stuff waiting to pounce etc.) With that said, I figured it was fairly obvious the altitudes I was talking about were the only one's I fly in (where a 109 should be in the 1st place). Again, sorry for the confusion.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Fly higher then. The 109 has a higher service ceiling, even in this current patch that a spitfire. Flying at maximum altitude, you will never have a spitfire even be able to point his guns at you.

Interesting. Highest I can get a 109 up to is 7.8km (25590 FT). Spit IIa I can get up to 29100 FT. You can get a 109 above 8km?

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/2013-01-24_00004_zpse1410868.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/2013-02-06_00014_zpsbfc354df.jpg

[ATAG_Snapper]

It wasnt inflammatory. Every post prior has pretty much ended with : "109 is better in every way. Its a miracle i survive." Which is obviously false. That is what I am getting at here. I want a 109, Spitfire, and Hurricane (as well as every other plane hopefully) MODELED PER THE A/C PERFORMANCE ABILITIES. Thats it. thats all i want. I know I cant turn with a Spit, I shouldnt be able to. The elliptical wing design ought to give it a roll/turn rate advantage. It should also stall out without warning when you pull too hard. The other part of the elliptical wing. On the other hand, the 109 should climb better, higher and faster and have a more lenient stall threshold and recovery. These are FACTS. not opinions. Im not asking for an F16 here. Im asking for a real Spit, a real Hurri, and a real 109. No whining or crying on EITHER side. But enough is enough. Have some goddamn integrity. Have some goddamn interest in the improvement of the game, not your stats or feelings.

It was inflammatory.

Earlier in this thread Farber stated that Spitfires can b&z, too. I pointed out that the dive speed of a Spit is far less than a 109, and that it is not very good at the boom. I included a video demonstrating that the Spit's wings rip off at 430 mph IAS, far below that of the max dive speed of the 109's 750 kmh dive speed. This is a "fact" in this sim. These are the "figures". Farber responds by "I'm doing it wrong". Fine, let's discuss. But then he continues with the "Red pilots are crying victim" mantra, similar to your "Boo hoo the Red pilots" nonsense.

Both of you are arbitrarily calling the shots as to what are "facts and figures" and what is "whining or crying". I believe everyone in this discussion DOES have "goddam integrity" and does have "goddam interest in the improvement of the game". Many of us may not be in lock step with you or Farber, many of us may actually have differing opinions to you both. But to infer we lack integrity or interest is absolute bullcrap to which I personally take great offence.

[ATAG_Bliss]

It wasnt inflammatory. Every post prior has pretty much ended with : "109 is better in every way. Its a miracle i survive." Which is obviously false. That is what I am getting at here. I want a 109, Spitfire, and Hurricane (as well as every other plane hopefully) MODELED PER THE A/C PERFORMANCE ABILITIES. Thats it. thats all i want. I know I cant turn with a Spit, I shouldnt be able to. The elliptical wing design ought to give it a roll/turn rate advantage. It should also stall out without warning when you pull too hard. The other part of the elliptical wing. On the other hand, the 109 should climb better, higher and faster and have a more lenient stall threshold and recovery. These are FACTS. not opinions. Im not asking for an F16 here. Im asking for a real Spit, a real Hurri, and a real 109. No whining or crying on EITHER side. But enough is enough. Have some goddamn integrity. Have some goddamn interest in the improvement of the game, not your stats or feelings.

Can you state where anyone has stated a 109 is better in every way? I have said multiple times the 109 (current steam version) is the far superior plane in the sim. The speed, climb, and altitude is the reason why. The plane that can decide when to engage and when to leave will always be thought of as superior. That's why the best fighters in the world, built today, are also the one's that are usually the fastest, have the best detection systems, and weapons/armament. The fight is ruled by those that choose when to fight. This has nothing to do with having a "goddamned interest in the improvement of the game, stats, or feelings". This is simply fact. The only people I see getting emotional about me stating those facts are posts like these.

As has been stated earlier, the people working on the game are all about facts, not balance. I hope you can remember this (it's been stated several times now) We all are very much wanting to improve the sim. These discussions don't really add to what the team already knows btw.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Interesting. Highest I can get a 109 up to is 7.8km (25590 FT). Spit IIa I can get up to 29100 FT. You can get a 109 above 8km?

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/2013-01-24_00004_zpse1410868.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/2013-02-06_00014_zpsbfc354df.jpg

Haha - I guess you didn't realize the altimeters for the German and RAF planes are not only different in how they measure, but also bugged. 109 is still higher. There is no spitfire in the current version of the sim flying anywhere near 9000m. Just FYI...

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

Haha - I guess you didn't realize the altimeters for the German and RAF planes are not only different in how they measure, but also bugged. 109 is still higher. There is no spitfire in the current version of the sim flying anywhere near 9000m. Just FYI...

woah woah woah. THE ALTIMETERS ARE DIFFERENT??? explain.

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

Can you state where anyone has stated a 109 is better in every way? I have said multiple times the 109 (current steam version) is the far superior plane in the sim. The speed, climb, and altitude is the reason why.

Isnt this contradictory? I am disputing your statements about the 109s superiority. Thats the point. I wasnt saying in EVERY way. But it is blatantly NOT the "far superior plane in the sim."

As for the integrity bit. I am referring to posts. Not any one particular post here, but that people are simply saying erroneous things. Tell you what, how about I test fly some of these planes and post results. And I would like to see what you guys are working on for the new stuff. Then I want to see where the performance characteristics you are aiming for are published (e.g. the actual recorded airframe data from real life). Im not saying you or anyone is a liar. I am saying that far far far too many excuses are being made for the Spit and far too many overblown claims about the 109s performance. I want facts and facts only. Im willing to allow clarification etc. We are all human. But any time i see a claim, from Blue or Red, I want airspeed, alt, and manuever being accomplished. . these things are important.

I will start:

430 mph = 692 kmh
SO: difference between wing rip off points = 58 kmh or 36 mph.

Is this accurate for the airframes? Dont know at this point. So I shall investigate.

[ATAG_Bliss]

woah woah woah. THE ALTIMETERS ARE DIFFERENT??? explain.

The different gauges aren't programmed the same. They are programmed with the same calculations the German gauge manufacturer used to build them. Same with the same calculations the British manufacturers used to build them. % of error to real life is modeled but also bugged, but also wrong. The in-game map has an atmospheric pressure bug. That combined with errors in code make them both unreliable and not close to their real altitude.

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

The different gauges aren't programmed the same. They are programmed with the same calculations the German gauge manufacturer used to build them. Same with the same calculations the British manufacturers used to build them. % of error to real life is modeled but also bugged, but also wrong. The in-game map has an atmospheric pressure bug. That combined with errors in code make them both unreliable and not close to their real altitude.

So can you please elaborate on the exact differences? I need to know for my future flights. I appreciate this type of information.
Also, since the altitudes are wrong, then surely the airspeed will be off too?

[ATAG_Bliss]

Isnt this contradictory? I am disputing your statements about the 109s superiority. Thats the point. I wasnt saying in EVERY way. But it is blatantly NOT the "far superior plane in the sim."

As for the integrity bit. I am referring to posts. Not any one particular post here, but that people are simply saying erroneous things. Tell you what, how about I test fly some of these planes and post results. And I would like to see what you guys are working on for the new stuff. Then I want to see where the performance characteristics you are aiming for are published (e.g. the actual recorded airframe data from real life). Im not saying you or anyone is a liar. I am saying that far far far too many excuses are being made for the Spit and far too many overblown claims about the 109s performance. I want facts and facts only. Im willing to allow clarification etc. We are all human. But any time i see a claim, from Blue or Red, I want airspeed, alt, and manuever. these things are important.

You can do all the tests you want using simple gauges, cockpit gauges, etc., but without the atmospheric engine fixed the only true calculations you'll have is how they relate to each other. Virtually everything in the atmosphere effects all the gauges. When the atmosphere is wrong, tests don't really mean squat other than comparisons.

As far as what is being used to test, sources or w/e, I'm afraid, quite frankly, that I can say is those are well documented. TF does not need people questioning the way they do things. All that should be said on the matter has already been stating - "they are aiming for accuracy, not balance" Don't expect the FM gurus to come here and respond to these types of demands. Furthermore, this isn't being released through steam. You do not have to use the modded version if you don't want to.

[ATAG_Bliss]

So can you please elaborate on the exact differences? I need to know for my future flights. I appreciate this type of information.
Also, since the altitudes are wrong, then surely the airspeed will be off too?

No I really can't and won't. But you can probably google the various gauges, manufacturers etc., and see the math behind each one.

[5./JG27 Max Schneider]

Hang on. You just said something that probably no one knew about regarding the altimeter. Im not trying to be a nuisance here i really just genuinely want to know. If the pitot-static system doesnt work properly I would just like to know if there was a consistent fault that i can essentially manually correct for?

[ATAG_Bliss]

Hang on. You just said something that probably no one knew about regarding the altimeter. Im not trying to be a nuisance here i really just genuinely want to know. If the pitot-static system doesnt work properly I would just like to know if there was a consistent fault that i can essentially manually correct for?

No it doesn't work like that, nor can I say multiply .004 and add to X. This is thousands of lines of code effecting 1000's of lines of code.

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

Fly higher then. The 109 has a higher service ceiling, even in this current patch that a spitfire. Flying at maximum altitude, you will never have a spitfire even be able to point his guns at you.
since the last patch the spit flies higher as the bf 109! yesterday I flew on the ravenhost and had test against spit climb. i climb between 210 and 380 km / h NO CHANCE, the spit is always faster! Hey curve (spin) better, he dive as good as messerschmitt. he climb better. he fly higher. i can only fly straight out when she sees me at the same height. the spit's flies everywhere in group from floor to 6000meters. everytime i attack a enemy plane i have a six. no more chance on Atag-server! this is the last CloD demanding server. if there no longer makes sense I can to throw away the game. this is the only game that I love so.

[Osprey]

It historically could out run, .........a spitfire.


Not true, especially down low with the tit pulled. There's plenty of evidence on this and tbh I won't bother arguing anyway. Suffice it to say that IvanK is/appears to be involved in the FM's (correct me if i'm wrong) so I have faith they will be accurate according to data. Let's hope there is no bad reaction when a 109 is reeled in because he was on deck and trying to get home relying just on top speed. I fly Hurricanes btw, and if we're going to talk history, they should be 2/3rds of the RAF in the sky - then our escaping 109 can get away safely.

[Osprey]

.......But the BOO HOO cry all day Red pilot stuff is really really starting to get old.......

<........>

......This is a very very important debate. The amount of mud slinging here is ridiculous and unnecessary. This is about learning and improvement.


Please Max........

[Osprey]

since the last patch the spit flies higher as the bf 109! yesterday I flew on the ravenhost and had test against spit climb. i climb between 210 and 380 km / h NO CHANCE, the spit is always faster! Hey curve (spin) better, he dive as good as messerschmitt. he climb better. he fly higher. i can only fly straight out when she sees me at the same height. the spit's flies everywhere in group from floor to 6000meters. everytime i attack a enemy plane i have a six. no more chance on Atag-server! this is the last CloD demanding server. if there no longer makes sense I can to throw away the game. this is the only game that I love so.

Come and fly with our 6./JG26 unit, they are German speakers. You will get better protection and get a better experience, and perhaps learn where you are making mistakes. I am not saying that you will not be shot down, but you are being shot down a lot so you must be doing something wrong. COD is a new game, it is different to 1946, so some things must be learned again.

TS3 address
85.236.100.27:24637

password: acg (pw may be on, if you cannot connect try without the password)

http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/forum

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

thank you, but I can't connected with or without the password.

Edit: Now, i am connected!:thumbsup:

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

Good luck.

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

thanks

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

thank you, but I can't connected with or without the password.

Edit: Now, i am connected!:thumbsup:

Sehst du in Den Himmel!
Viel Gluck and eine gute Jagd.

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

thanks

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Haha - I guess you didn't realize the altimeters for the German and RAF planes are not only different in how they measure, but also bugged. 109 is still higher. There is no spitfire in the current version of the sim flying anywhere near 9000m. Just FYI...

Maybe the altimeters are not displaying an accurate reading but they are both doing so at an equal rate. Today we tested, 5card in a 109 E-1, myself in a Spit IIa. From 3km up to 8km both a/c were showing altitudes within 100ft of each other. Above 25k ft the 109 was not able to keep up with the Spit, which went up to an indicated 30k ft. Maybe the absolute numbers are not correct but the Spit has a much higher max ceiling.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Maybe the altimeters are not displaying an accurate reading but they are both doing so at an equal rate. Today we tested, 5card in a 109 E-1, myself in a Spit IIa. From 3km up to 8km both a/c were showing altitudes within 100ft of each other. Above 25k ft the 109 was not able to keep up with the Spit, which went up to an indicated 30k ft. Maybe the absolute numbers are not correct but the Spit has a much higher max ceiling.

I believe your account. I'm pretty confident myself that the spit's ceiling since the last patch was attended too, but the 109's was not.
Mind you, I've never climbed that high in a fight, so it's not been of any use to me yet.

I suspect/ understand that the TF patch will fix the ceilings across all aircraft, and then we will be fighting up high for a change.

[Continu0]

since the last patch the spit flies higher as the bf 109! yesterday I flew on the ravenhost and had test against spit climb. i climb between 210 and 380 km / h NO CHANCE, the spit is always faster! Hey curve (spin) better, he dive as good as messerschmitt. he climb better. he fly higher. i can only fly straight out when she sees me at the same height. the spit's flies everywhere in group from floor to 6000meters. everytime i attack a enemy plane i have a six. no more chance on Atag-server! this is the last CloD demanding server. if there no longer makes sense I can to throw away the game. this is the only game that I love so.

On the Ravenhost, AI-Fighters spawn. They have an totaly different flight-model, so you might have "catched" one of those....

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

On the Ravenhost, AI-Fighters spawn. They have an totaly different flight-model, so you might have "catched" one of those....

The experience was because after the patch are bf 109 from JG11 flown highest possible by atag and then were exposed to BnZ - attacks from spit. I've read in the forum and in the ts pilots have complained about it.

Should we test it at ACG.next time.

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

Bf 109 E1 is slightly better than the spit 2, but the Bf 109 E4 is slightly worse.
This means that all of them had in this disskussion right and wrong. :doh:

[Robo.]

Bf 109 E1 is slightly better than the spit 2, but the Bf 109 E4 is slightly worse.

What do you mean by that?

[6./JG26_Warjunkie]

the performance of bf 109 Emil1 ist better, but the Emil4 is worse against the spit 2.
the performance of E1 and E4 is a big difference. E4 is often too heavy for air tactics.
E1 is ok, against spit 2. so should the topic be clarified.

[Robo.]

the performance of bf 109 Emil1 ist better, but the Emil4 is worse against the spit 2.
the performance of E1 and E4 is a big difference. E4 is often too heavy for air tactics.
E1 is ok, against spit 2. so should the topic be clarified.

I was a bit confused and not sure if you really meant that the performance differences between E-1 and E-4 are big enough to fit a Spitfire between them. This is not true I am afraid.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

109 rules by a huge advantage? huh?

does that mean TF will neuter the 109 in the TF mod? spits already outturn, they hold the energy better and out dive 109s in most cases. perhaps you have tipped your hand in what is in store for team blue.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

109 rules by a huge advantage? huh?
No-one from TF has said this, as far as I can tell.


does that mean TF will neuter the 109 in the TF mod?
No-one from TF has made any such statements.



spits already ...hold the energy better and out dive 109s in most cases
How did you test this, or is it just based on anecdote?

I accept that the Spitfires (in the game, as it is now) can generally turn (at least at certain relative speeds) better than the 109, especially when the spitfire drops it's flaps for about 90 degree's worth of the turn. That "dropping the flap" to gain extra turn rate might not be historical. I'm not sure. If it is not historical, then I expect TF will remove that from the Spitfires with their patch. I won't be complaining if they do.

However, the idea that Spitifres (which spitfires? - all of them???? under what fuel loads and intial airspeed) can "hold energy better" and out-dive 109s (which 109s? with what fuel loads? under what flying conditions?) in "most" cases is pure speculation, and has not been confirmed by anybody to date. This is fast becoming an oft repeated notion, that to date has not actually been demonstrated to be true.. by anybody......

I'm sure that TF have been carrying out test after test an compiling loads of data to see how the aircraft really do perform. Aspects such as turn rate, and dive speed etc will NOT have escaped their attention. I suspect that you might be quite pleased to see any information that they will publish when the patch is released, which will hopefully clarify in black and white what performance characteristics one can expect from the aircraft. This sort of information has, sadly, been lacking from the game's original developer. In many cases it is the vacuum of information that has resulted in so much un-proven speculation and anecdote that is being passed of as fact with the current flight models.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

hrs and hrs of flying.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

hrs and hrs of flying.

We've all got hours and hours of flying in the game, and still we get different conclusions. So it's clearly inadequate and should be confined to the "anecdotal" basket..
This is why testing is so important - repeatable tests, with variables corrected for as much as possible, and explained where not corrected for. My understanding is that TF are doing such tests.

Here's a test designed to determine whether or not the spitfire can "out-dive" the 109. It requires a minimum of 6 tests.
All tests are carried out at the same altitude, lat's say 7,000ft for example.

Test 1 requires a 109 E1 and a Spitfire 1a-100oct, each with 100% fuel load, air-spawn at 7,000ft.
The two aircraft are to fly level, next to each other in the same direction**.
Each aircraft is to set up for 200mph indicated speed, in level flight (320 km/h)
At a set count (3,2,1) the two pilots will execute a dive (the spitfire will have to half-roll at the start to avoid engine cut out) directly towards a common ground object, in their best known dive setup for speed. Some pilot skill will come into play here, no doubt. But we'd have to review how much of an impact that had on the results. Some pilots will be better than others at quickly setting up their aircraft for a max-speed dive.
At 1000ft AGL or AMSL the test stops.
The recorded track of this is then reviewed to see which aircraft reached 1,000ft first.

The test is then repeated with the following combinations of aircraft:
E1 v Spit 2a
E3 v Spit 1a 100 Oct
E3 v Spit 2a
E4 v Spit 2a
E4 v Spit 1a 100 oct

That is 6 tests in total. If the spitfires "win" on four or more occasions then I would take that as good evidence that in most cases the spitfire can out-dive the 109.

You could repeat the whole set of tests by requiring the spitfire to push the nose down at the start of the tests too, just to see how much (if) that makes any difference.

** there is a reason why you simply cannot do the test by yourself and "time" the dive with a stopwatch. This is because (according to some) the altimeters in the various types are not necessarily comparable in game. Therefore you might actually be diving from a different height. Only by flying side-by-side can this potential error be eliminated.

[Robo.]

hrs and hrs of flying.

Flying Spitfires, too?

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Flying Spitfires, too?

lol.. either way "hours of flying" is not a good argument when something can be tested. I could drop the "hours of flying" (over 700 now) bomb to argue for any old position. But we all know that counts for nothing, especially when the claim can be empirically tested.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

so you havent noticed any constant outcomes?

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

so you havent noticed any constant outcomes?

I haven't done any consistent tests yet.
How can I know if the outcomes be consistent if I cannot be sure that the test conditions are?

Sure I've caught up with 109s before in a dive. (nothing more than anecdote)
And 109s have caught up with me before in a dive. (nothing more than anecdote)
But in NONE of those cases could I tell you what our relative fuels loads were, what our exact entry airspeed speed and relative altitude was when the dive started, whether both aircraft were properly trimmed for best aerodynamic, whether or not either aircraft had already sustained any damage, and whether or not the pilot flying the other plane was pushing it as hard as he could. In many cases I don't even know if I was pushing my aircraft as hard as I could....

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

109 rules by a huge advantage? huh?


I would like to correct myself, I have found the quote you are referencing now. It was from Bliss earlier in the thread.
These were his exact words: The 109 rules the roost by a HUGE margin in Cliffs.

I'm not sure what he means by "huge". Perhaps he has access to data from the current FM code to back this up.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Here's something to bear in mind, a tactic employed by many red pilots in order to "catch 109s in the dive". It does not always work, but when it does, it is very satisfying.

The picture below demonstrates this. The black line is the 109, the red line is the spitfire.
If the spitfire pilot is smart, he will let the 109 go vertically downward, but try to work out what direction he thinks the 109 is going to fly. Then the spitfire pilot heads slightly off from that direction (so he can see the 109 below, a little bit out to the side). The spitfire pilot needs to dive to keep his speed up (~320mph/ 514 km/h) , but not vertically, going vertical is more likely to hand the advantage to the 109, especially as you approach maximum safe dive speed.
1965
Eventually the 109 look behind and see that the spitfire is not right on his tail, or he will be close to the ground by now so he will relax his dive, and his speed will start dropping back, hopefully to 450 - 500 km/h or less. Now the spitfire (you need a 2a or a 1a 100 octane for this, with boost cut-out enabled - remember you only get 2 or 3 minutes of this) will still be diving, at 300 to 320, this is faster than 500 km/h. There is now a good chance that the spitfire will start gaining on the 109 again, in fact given that the spitfire has almost traveled the hypotenuse, he has no excuse for not catching the 109. After a few seconds, or maybe longer, depending on how far they dived, the spitfire will catch the 109.

It's not becasue the spitfire can out-dive the 109, it's because the spitfire pilot was smarter than the 109 pilot.

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Here's something to bear in mind, a tactic employed by many red pilots in order to "catch 109s in the dive". It does not always work, but when it does, it is very satisfying.

The picture below demonstrates this. The black line is the 109, the red line is the spitfire.
If the spitfire pilot is smart, he will let the 109 go vertically downward, but try to work out what direction he thinks the 109 is going to fly. Then the spitfire pilot heads slightly off from that direction (so he can see the 109 below, a little bit out to the side). The spitfire pilot needs to dive to keep his speed up (~320mph/ 514 km/h) , but not vertically, going vertical is more likely to hand the advantage to the 109, especially as you approach maximum safe dive speed.
1965
Eventually the 109 look behind and see that the spitfire is not right on his tail, or he will be close to the ground by now so he will relax his dive, and his speed will start dropping back, hopefully to 450 - 500 km/h or less. Now the spitfire (you need a 2a or a 1a 100 octane for this, with boost cut-out enabled - remember you only get 2 or 3 minutes of this) will still be diving, at 300 to 320, this is faster than 500 km/h. There is now a good chance that the spitfire will start gaining on the 109 again. After a few seconds, or maybe longer, depending on how far they dived, the spitfire will catch the 109.

It's not becasue the spitfire can out-dive the 109, it's because the spitfire pilot was smarter than the 109 pilot.

+1= 1300 hours , the last line says it best . the smart 109 pilot still wins, unless good tactics are used, an a good wingman, funny thing is i kill a lot of you 109s in a hurri, an i don't have dive speed or climb , maybe rethink your tactics,

[Robo.]

I believe Philstyle was referring to 1 vs 1 situation more or less. Yes that works just fine, simple geometry. I don't know if the Spitfire consistently outdives the 109, I prefer not following them to keep my E (I climb instead and wait for them to come up or I dive in a shallower dive cutting his curve as Philstyle demosntrates), but I'd say they are pretty equal as they should be.

As for the Bliss quote I agree 100-percently.