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92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-06-2013, 18:26
Shot this tonight, I have 2 more of these similar, to upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRX0XX7vh7Y&

Only took me 15 minutes of flying to get plenty of examples of 109's doing these multitude of interesting things...

LG1.Farber
Feb-06-2013, 19:26
He climbed hi, then dived then you scissored and didn't slow down and gave him your six.

ATAG_Slipstream
Feb-06-2013, 19:42
Against human opponents its always the same, you have a split second to make the right choice.

The BF-109 has its weaknesses like any other plane, I've been set alight by Hurricane's from the 71st squadron whilst trying to climb out from a BnZ many times. Once the wings are on fire, you have under 30 seconds of trying to jettison the canopy and bail before the flames spread inside.

Not so easy when your trying to hit CTRL+ J but hitting any other damn key instead.

The best pilots can push their plane to the absolute limit, and how to exploit the enemies weakness.

ATAG_Colander
Feb-06-2013, 22:37
It's the pilot, not the machine

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 03:29
He climbed hi, then dived then you scissored and didn't slow down and gave him your six.

Right. After sustaining at least 200+ rounds of ammunition.
He does NOT climb high. He remains at my altitude throughout the manouevre, watch the video again.
He makes a 180 degree reverse turn in less than 2.5 seconds.

I'm OK if that's legit. But if it is, let's not have any more comments about the 109 being unable to turn fight then.

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Feb-07-2013, 04:12
It's the pilot, not the machine

No, its the loyalty of 1C and not so much the pilot.
JG11Winger was one of the most successful pilots on the atag. That was his comment after the patch:

Just to Atag E4 against SpitIIa. I was boomed and Zoomed. Funny what? 7500m was at the limit of the e4 and the spit came in with about 1000m altitude advantage. ROFL.
Then, another map from E3 Spit Ia. I 7500m - absolute limit. Spit on me at about 8500m above the highest clouds.
Sorry. I will still be in the TS but not for Clod. So I'm through. I do not let the better curving, falling and now even better rising Spits booming and zooming. LOL 1C is so incompetent that they stink.

Winger

if Team fusion ensure back historically correct for performance of all fighters, the German community is coming back. I do not believe it!

ATAG_Snapper
Feb-07-2013, 06:10
No, its the loyalty of 1C and not so much the pilot.
JG11Winger was one of the most successful pilots on the atag. That was his comment after the patch:

Just to Atag E4 against SpitIIa. I was boomed and Zoomed. Funny what? 7500m was at the limit of the e4 and the spit came in with about 1000m altitude advantage. ROFL.
Then, another map from E3 Spit Ia. I 7500m - absolute limit. Spit on me at about 8500m above the highest clouds.
Sorry. I will still be in the TS but not for Clod. So I'm through. I do not let the better curving, falling and now even better rising Spits booming and zooming. LOL 1C is so incompetent that they stink.

Winger

if Team fusion ensure back historically correct for performance of all fighters, the German community is coming back. I do not believe it!

This Winger?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35061

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 06:16
Right. After sustaining at least 200+ rounds of ammunition.
He does NOT climb high. He remains at my altitude throughout the manouevre, watch the video again.
He makes a 180 degree reverse turn in less than 2.5 seconds.

I'm OK if that's legit. But if it is, let's not have any more comments about the 109 being unable to turn fight then.

Hardly, watch the coast line. He initiated a scissors but you had more speed and you just walked out... There was a fair amount of missing going on in there too, how do you know it actually was 200+ rounds?

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Feb-07-2013, 06:57
This Winger?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35061

Yes Snapper, this Winger. after the last patch he has claimed that the game was now ruined and he will not play again. The answer was of 1C: Farewell!
he used to be in the TS and now I no longer saw him.

Osprey
Feb-07-2013, 07:05
No, its the loyalty of 1C and not so much the pilot.
JG11Winger was one of the most successful pilots on the atag. That was his comment after the patch:

Just to Atag E4 against SpitIIa. I was boomed and Zoomed. Funny what? 7500m was at the limit of the e4 and the spit came in with about 1000m altitude advantage. ROFL.
Then, another map from E3 Spit Ia. I 7500m - absolute limit. Spit on me at about 8500m above the highest clouds.
Sorry. I will still be in the TS but not for Clod. So I'm through. I do not let the better curving, falling and now even better rising Spits booming and zooming. LOL 1C is so incompetent that they stink.

Winger

if Team fusion ensure back historically correct for performance of all fighters, the German community is coming back. I do not believe it!

There is a strong and successful German community, you are welcome to join it. I understand that the new patch will address the problems with service ceiling.

Winger might have been your friend but he has an unparalleled bias for the 109. He could only kill easily because of the terrible modelling of the 109 power systems in previous patches where a loss of coolant had no effect, afterburner would not cause any overheating and therefore the 109 so could sustain huge damage and continue fighting with strong performance. Even an explosion from hitting the fuel tank would allow the pilot to fly on without damage but he would run out of fuel quickly. Despite this Winger would complain in the chat bar if the E4 was not included in a mission and leave the server, because he was not capable of killing without mineshells. The very moment the new patch arrived he could no longer get shot and fight on, he found himself being shot down, then he complained loudly on the 1C forums and (thank God) decided to quit COD for the safe haven of ROF. My point being is that it's not worth listening to his opinion on COD even if he was telling what he thinks is true. Have a talk with 6./JG26_Pitti on our TS (he is Austrian), you will get a different story.

Best of luck ~S~

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Feb-07-2013, 07:29
I have myself written that the Bf 109 was before the last patch too strong. But Winger is right that the 109th motorization and flight ability of the spit after the patch to strong against bf109. 1C did not finish the game programmed. It is unplayable for our big bomber-fighter association. many have paid for it and do not play it more. all feel cheated, after the last patch.
and now:
Our German CloD- server went offline.
germany pilots gave up Clod and play back the 1946th,DCS, War Thunder, or leave the community.
Clod and BoS the topic being discussed no longer in our forums.
All my friends say: "CloD is Dead".

WHY, when everything is just fine?? each can see that it is something wrong.

ATAG_Snapper
Feb-07-2013, 07:37
Warjunkie, my wish is very strongly that you continue to fly Clod. Please consider Osprey's invitation to meet with JG26 and Pitti. You deserve to have a better experience.

I wish you the very best.

Snapper

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:18
. There was a fair amount of missing going on in there too, how do you know it actually was 200+ rounds?

MY tracers are 1 in 4 bullets. Each tracers represents a set of 4 x 8 bullets (32 per tracer) across all guns.
My convergence is short (150m). Tracers are on the outer guns only, so every other bullet is between them. If the tracers hit, at close to 150m range, there is a very igh chance that all the intermediate bulltes will have also hit.

I count 14 separate groups of tracers, in slow motion replay, that are "on target" where the tracer stream is visibly hitting target.
Let's say I've over counted by 20%, so we'll say there were actually only 11.5 sets of ammo "on target". That's 352 rounds.

Now let's assume a large risk error, and that only 2/3rds of those (already under-counted) bullets that appear to be hitting are actually doing so.

This gets me to 200+ (230 in fact)

I've heard so many, many times about "I put loads of rounds into the guy, but he never went down" and no-one ever seems to be able to provide a calcualtion to show how they got to their number. This is how I got to mine,. I think the estimate is reasonable, and probably conservative.

However, I would embrace another methodology.

EDIT: Sorry Farber, I've counted from the wrong video here. Please accept my apologies!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:20
I have myself written that the Bf 109 was before the last patch too strong. But Winger is right that the 109th motorization and flight ability of the spit after the patch to strong against bf109. 1C did not finish the game programmed. It is unplayable for our big bomber-fighter association. many have paid for it and do not play it more. all feel cheated, after the last patch.
and now:
Our German CloD- server went offline.
germany pilots gave up Clod and play back the 1946th,DCS, War Thunder, or leave the community.
Clod and BoS the topic being discussed no longer in our forums.
All my friends say: "CloD is Dead".

WHY, when everything is just fine?? each can see that it is something wrong.

Warjunkie, there are still some very good squads flying 109s. Perhaps you might consider flying with them?
I would recommend 5./JG27 to you. They are good pilots and they can help you learn some teamwork skills in the 109.

Robo.
Feb-07-2013, 08:21
I was watching the video and sorry to say that pstyle but there was nothing unusual and nothing what a 109 shouldn't be able to do. I see badly excecuted scissors against a decent 109 pilot (whoever that was). They usually take very little fuel and have fun in knife fights like this, great way to learn the maneuvers and gain better control of your plane and experience in shooting and actual dogfight, but there is very little these videos can prove. I am mostly a RAF pilot for the record. :thumbsup:


No, its the loyalty of 1C and not so much the pilot.
JG11Winger was one of the most successful pilots on the atag. That was his comment after the patch:

Sorry mate, but Winger was very far from being 'one of the most successful pilots on the atag'. :-P I remember his annoying rants on ATAG everytime he got caught in a situation he shouldn't be in (not necessarily in 7500m). Just my opinion of course...

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:26
I was watching the video and sorry to say that pstyle but there was nothing unusual and nothing what a 109 shouldn't be able to do. I see badly excecuted scissors against a decent 109 pilot (whoever that was). They usually take very little fuel and have fun in knife fights like this, great way to learn the maneuvers and gain better control of your plane and experience in shooting and actual dogfight, but there is very little these videos can prove. I am mostly a RAF pilot for the record. :thumbsup:.

Points taken. Thanks also to Farber and others for their input.
For the record, I'm glad for the criticism of the way I executed the following manoeuvres.

It would be quite nice to have a "what did I do wrong" forum for us to post our deaths on-line for other pilots to analyse.... Hmmm.....

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:28
didn't slow down and gave him your six.

For the record, my spit did slow down. I entered my left turn at 160mph indicated, by the time he was next to me (after my 90 degree left turn) I was at 110mph indicated.
If I had dropped my throttle I would have almost certainly stalled.

Robo.
Feb-07-2013, 08:32
MY tracers are 1 in 4 bullets. Each tracers represents a set of 4 x 8 bullets (32 per tracer) across all guns.
My convergence is short (150m). Tracers are on the outer guns only, so every other bullet is between them. If the tracers hit, at close to 150m range, there is a very igh chance that all the intermediate bulltes will have also hit.

I count 14 separate groups of tracers, in slow motion replay, that are "on target" where the tracer stream is visibly hitting target.
Let's say I've over counted by 20%, so we'll say there were actually only 11.5 sets of ammo "on target". That's 352 rounds.

Now let's assume a large risk error, and that only 2/3rds of those (already under-counted) bullets that appear to be hitting are actually doing so.

This gets me to 200+ (230 in fact)

I've heard so many, many times about "I put loads of rounds into the guy, but he never went down" and no-one ever seems to be able to provide a calcualtion to show how they got to their number. This is how I got to mine,. I think the estimate is reasonable, and probably conservative.

However, I would embrace another methodology.

The shooting was not as good as you think imho - the first burst was just a spray because your nose was very unstable (easily done in a Spitfire I know), you scratched his wingtip. The second one as he pushed nose down went mostly just above your target, you got good hits only in the last bit and he started streaming immediately. I estimate your piper was some 0.5cm too high depending on your convergence settings (150m which is cca what I am using, too)- just enough not to trace his downward movement. I know it's not easy and you can only push so fast in that situation. Then in the scissors I would say you pulled the trigger a tad too late and missed the most of your burst. My guess is you scored about 50 hits, mostly when you got him streaming.

The snapshots in scissors are not easy and it's an uneven competition due to the roll rate and armament differences, but you can improve by giving him a squirt (not too late like you did though!) and let him fly through that, which is not very effective, or you can pull in his trajectory and let the piper move with him a bit. Very difficult as you're shooting through your nose but more effective.

Osprey
Feb-07-2013, 08:37
I have myself written that the Bf 109 was before the last patch too strong. But Winger is right that the 109th motorization and flight ability of the spit after the patch to strong against bf109. 1C did not finish the game programmed. It is unplayable for our big bomber-fighter association. many have paid for it and do not play it more. all feel cheated, after the last patch.
and now:
Our German CloD- server went offline.
germany pilots gave up Clod and play back the 1946th,DCS, War Thunder, or leave the community.
Clod and BoS the topic being discussed no longer in our forums.
All my friends say: "CloD is Dead".

WHY, when everything is just fine?? each can see that it is something wrong.

I think if you have some flights with our chaps you will begin to think differently. You may hold Winger in high regard but the COD community does not (both red and blue) and you can see this in the responses of derision from the thread which Snapper posted. From his contributions to other threads at 1C I don't think he has much idea about the historical performance of the aircraft either, he seemed content that he could fly out and massacre a squadron without any consequence and seemed to think this was accurate, which of course it is not. When he lost this ability he complained and left. I think he would be a good HAWX pilot but that's it.

I hope to see you in our TS this week and/or weekend :)
~S~

TS3:
85.236.100.27:24637
Password 'acg' (or no password, whichever works)
www.aircombatgroup.co.uk

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:40
The shooting was not as good as you think imho - the first burst was just a spray because your nose was very unstable (easily done in a Spitfire I know), you scratched his wingtip. The second one as he pushed nose down went mostly just above your target, you got good hits only in the last bit and he started streaming immediately. I estimate your piper was some 0.5cm too high depending on your convergence settings (150m which is cca what I am using, too)- just enough not to trace his downward movement. I know it's not easy and you can only push so fast in that situation. Then in the scissors I would say you pulled the trigger a tad too late and missed the most of your burst. My guess is you scored about 50 hits, mostly when you got him streaming.

The snapshots in scissors are not easy and it's an uneven competition due to the roll rate and armament differences, but you can improve by giving him a squirt (not too late like you did though!) and let him fly through that, which is not very effective, or you can pull in his trajectory and let the piper move with him a bit. Very difficult as you're shooting through your nose but more effective.

You're right about the round-hits in this video!
I'm counting from a different video!
crap, that'll teach me for uploading three at once.

Osprey
Feb-07-2013, 08:40
Warjunkie, there are still some very good squads flying 109s. Perhaps you might consider flying with them?
I would recommend 5./JG27 to you. They are good pilots and they can help you learn some teamwork skills in the 109.

5./JG27 are English speaking pilots. I think Warjunkie is German and using Google translate hence I suggested 6./JG26 who are Germans and Austrians. Both squadrons are in Air Combat Group anyway and fight alongside.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:43
5./JG27 are English speaking pilots. I think Warjunkie is German and using Google translate hence I suggested 6./JG26 who are Germans and Austrians. Both squadrons are in Air Combat Group anyway and fight alongside.

Sehr gute idee.
Warjunkie, wenn Sie Duetsch sprecht, versuchen Sie fliegen mit JG26.
http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/squadrons/6JG26.php

Robo.
Feb-07-2013, 08:45
Points taken. Thanks also to Farber and others for their input.
For the record, I'm glad for the criticism of the way I executed the following manoeuvres.

It would be quite nice to have a "what did I do wrong" forum for us to post our deaths on-line for other pilots to analyse.... Hmmm.....

I don't want to be pointing out at what you did wrong, I am doing many mistakes myself, so please take this just as my opinion.

Scissors are not easy to master, horizontal, vertical or combined. I usually avoid them vs. the 109 if I can and I use it in the 109 as last resort maneuver, learned that in the old game and it works superb here as well, The main atributes you need are - deceleration and acceleration, roll rate at slower speed, armament - your 109 has got just that. Now watching your video I see you're rolling too late and you chose wrong trajectory, it's hard to explain but basically you need to be one step ahead of your opponent. Watch the 0:47 to 0:58, you started to roll too late and you basically offered him that shot in the next turn (next rhytm of the scissors sequence), a better 109 pilot (or less damaged) would take you out at 0:58 by nosing up a bit more. There are more ways how to do that better, mine would be going more vertical, looping above him (barell roll) and diving on him in next sequence. Scissors are about trajectory in time, you need to push the other guy in front of you for guns solution, one way is making a tighter turn faster than him, the other is chosing a longer trajecotry (e.g. barell roll) in the same time.

Robo.
Feb-07-2013, 08:46
You're right about the round-hits in this video!
I'm counting from a different video!
crap, that'll teach me for uploading three at once.

Ah OK sorry about the misunderstanding then :salute:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 08:46
I don't want to be pointing out at what you did wrong, I am doing many mistakes myself, so please take this just as my opinion.

Scissors are not easy to master, horizontal, vertical or combined. I usually avoid them vs. the 109 if I can and I use it in the 109 as last resort maneuver, learned that in the old game and it works superb here as well, The main atributes you need are - deceleration and acceleration, roll rate at slower speed, armament - your 109 has got just that. Now watching your video I see you're rolling too late and you chose wrong trajectory, it's hard to explain but basically you need to be one step ahead of your opponent. Watch the 0:47 to 0:58, you started to roll too late and you basically offered him that shot in the next turn (next rhytm of the scissors sequence), a better 109 pilot would take you out at 0:58 by nosing up a bit more. There are more ways how to do that better, mine would be going more vertical, looping above him (barell roll) and diving on him in next sequence. Scissors are about trajectory in time, you need to push the other guy in front of you for guns solution, one way is making a tighter turn faster than him, the other is chosing a longer trajecotry (e.g. barell roll) in the same time.

Cheers Robo. I appreciate the feedback.

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Feb-07-2013, 08:50
Sorry mate, but Winger was very far from being 'one of the most successful pilots on the atag'. :-P I remember his annoying rants on ATAG everytime he got caught in a situation he shouldn't be in (not necessarily in 7500m). Just my opinion of course...

Winger was still among the best pilots with the most kills at atag .. so good you will never be ...;) Robocop. think first, then write!

Robo.
Feb-07-2013, 09:05
Winger was still among the best pilots with the most kills at atag .. so good you will never be ...;) Robocop. think first, then write!

You can get many kills by slaughtering bombers you know, I actually fought the guy and I remember him as a not the best pilot to be honest, but he always spammed the chatline with complaints about the FMs after he got shot down, often by me. If you want the names of the most capable 109 pilots from ATAG (imho, based on numerous fights with them) I can provide, but Winger won't be between them. I know he's very good in RoF, excellent pilot, perhaps that's why he was turning so much, I don't know. It's up to you what you think of course. :thumbsup:

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 09:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TnRr1gZ93s

4:45 is what Robo is talking about avoiding the scissors with a lag displacement roll or Offensive Barrel Roll of course this requires energy to climb! You need to think about that before your rolling in the mud though. :) Maybe even in a spitfire - I dont know I cant fly a spit to save my live, Im only average in a 109 too :)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TnRr1gZ93s

4:45 is what Robo is talking about avoiding the scissors with a lag displacement roll or Offensive Barrel Roll.

Cheers Farber :salute:. On other occasions (certainly on ATAG - as opposed to a dogfight server) this is what I might do.
In this case I only had 160mph going into the turn. Any nose-up would have resulted in close-to-stall conditions.

I probably made my mistake earlier in the sequence.

VO101_Tom
Feb-07-2013, 09:17
Huh, V.4_Pogi again? :D
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/809/happy-oh-stop-it-you.png

Nobody said, that the 109 can't turn at all. But if you look a constant speed 360 degree turning ("Corner speed (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=corner+speed)" and the corresponding angular velocity), the 109 much worse in that. Worse than the Hurri (especially high alt), and Worse than the Spit (all alt). Obviously, this situation has nothing related with these abilities, i don't understand why you mentioned this on the end of the video. You simple turn away from him, and let him to follow you (common newbie mistake). What else you expect...?

You fired many bullets, but you scattered the whole plane, there was no one accurate, aimed burst into the cocpit/engine. Next time try to shoot more accurate.

S!

Continu0
Feb-07-2013, 09:25
Shot this tonight, I have 2 more of these similar, to upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRX0XX7vh7Y&

Only took me 15 minutes of flying to get plenty of examples of 109's doing these multitude of interesting things...

Pstyle, are flying with 100%fuel there? I would never ever do that on such a server... It´s all reasonable if the 109 only had 20% fuel...

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:26
Huh, V.4_Pogi again? :D
Well, the same guy was on the nearly empty server at the same time as me. Who else was I supposed to film?
It could have been anybody. I got video of the guy who happened to be there at the time.
Just like the "lag" - it's a coincidence.


You simple turn away from him, and let him to follow you
At which point in the video are you referring to this turn-away?

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:27
Pstyle, are flying with 100%fuel there? I would never ever do that on such a server... It´s all reasonable if the 109 only had 20% fuel...

I think you might be looking at the RESERVE fuel indicator - notice it only goes up to 37 gallons..... The spitfire does not indicate how much total fuel you are carrying.

Continu0
Feb-07-2013, 09:29
I think you might be looking at the RESERVE fuel indicator - notice it only goes up to 37 gallons..... The spitfire does not indicate how much total fuel you are carrying.

Ok, didn`t know that...
Btw. what music did you use? Sounds pretty cool....

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:30
Ok, didn`t know that...
Btw. what music did you use? Sounds pretty cool....

Hi mate, the music is from Supergrass. A British band from the 1990s. I used to listen to them in high-school ;)
That track is "in it for the money" I think, or it might be "late in the day". I forget.

VO101_Tom
Feb-07-2013, 09:32
At which point in the video are you referring to this turn-away?

0:59
You turning left (you should keep turning this direction), but you change the spiral direction. If you drawing this from top view, you will see, this was the mistake.

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 09:34
I think you might be looking at the RESERVE fuel indicator - notice it only goes up to 37 gallons..... The spitfire does not indicate how much total fuel you are carrying.

37 Imp gallons is 159 Litres... if thats the reserve tank then you had more in the main tank! Fuel tank on the 109 is 400 litres max! If he had 20% fuel thats 80 litres. Plus the spits heavier than the 109... Yep he had a weight advantage on you.

From memory I think 1 lire of clod fuel is 1.1 kilos(?), I remeber Luthier saying it was heavier than normal fuel....

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:36
37 Imp gallons is 159 Litres... Fuel tank on the 109 is 400 litres max! If he had 20% fuel thats 80 litres. Plus the spits heavier than the 109... Yep he had a weight advantage on you.

yep. This is likely the case. I can confirm that I had more than this too.

Appreciate the feedback guys. I am happy to be corrected and informed.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:38
From memory I think 1 lire of clod fuel is 1.1 kilos(?), I remeber Luthier saying it was heavier than normal fuel....

I wonder why (if true) they modeled fuel heavy?
Aviation Fuel should be less dense than water......

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 09:42
Just for reference the spits 1 and 2 carried 87 gallons between two tanks in the nose (Real World). The fuel tank at the top feeds into the bottom tank. The top tank is 50 gallons the bottom 37. So if your fuel guage starts to move you know that the 50 gallon top tank is empty. 100LL which these aircraft would have been using at the time (Spitfires anway) weighs 6.8 Lbs per gallon. I don't know how much it weighs in the game.

VO101_Tom
Feb-07-2013, 09:42
400 liter fuel is 300 kg in the 109.
0,75kg/liter

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 09:46
Im not familiar with it but what fuel did the 109 use? I was under the impression that it used diesel or a varient thereof, in which case the fuel would be lighter than the avgas.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 09:47
I don't know how much it weighs in the game.

Hey Folmar, we can check in the load out screen by moving the fuel load slider from empty to full. The mass/weight of the aircraft will go up and down accordingly on the left side of screen.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 09:48
Redundant

VO101_Tom
Feb-07-2013, 09:51
I only know, it was 87 octane aviation fuel. I don't know how much weight variations possible, according to the chemical composition and the mode of refining.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 09:53
Redundant

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Feb-07-2013, 10:23
You can get many kills by slaughtering bombers you know, I actually fought the guy and I remember him as a not the best pilot to be honest, but he always spammed the chatline with complaints about the FMs after he got shot down, often by me. If you want the names of the most capable 109 pilots from ATAG (imho, based on numerous fights with them) I can provide, but Winger won't be between them. I know he's very good in RoF, excellent pilot, perhaps that's why he was turning so much, I don't know. It's up to you what you think of course. :thumbsup:

what are you writing? Winger was in my squadron. I am flown with him many months, was also his wingman. you have no idea and write nonsense about someone you do not even know?:doh: what you had to do with winger ... absolutely nothing!

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 11:12
87 gallons (INGAME) in the spit is 284 kg's according to the game. 22.982 Liters 12.3574972 kgs per liter

87 gallons (100LL) at 6.02 per gallon weighs 523.74 lbs/ 237.56 kgs 22.982 Liters 10.3367853 kgs per liter

87 gallons (87 AVGAS) at 6.07 per gallon weighs 528.09 lbs/ 239.53 kgs. 22.982 Liters 10.4225046 kgs per liter

For Reference I am using 1 Kilogram = 2.20462262 Pounds

For Reference I am using 1 Gallons = 3.78541178 Liters

For Reference I am using 100LL corrected to 15 degrees C. weighs 6.02 per Gallon

For Reference I am using 87 AvGas corrected to 15 degrees C. weights 6.07 per Gallon

Ermm are you sure about those figures? This is all wrong except your kilo to to pounds figure which is to 8 decimal places... lol

ATAG_Bliss
Feb-07-2013, 11:16
I wonder why (if true) they modeled fuel heavy?
Aviation Fuel should be less dense than water......

I think Ilya was referring to gasoline which is less dense that aviation stuff.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:26
Yes farber I am sure of my figures, Thank you for asking, and the only reason I went to eight decimal places is because people on this forum tend to try and shoot holes in everything they read. So I was trying to eliminate every possible variable. If my math is wrong then please feel free to correct me. The are the exact same calculations I use in my aircraft when flying around, so they should work in the game. Granted I dont do lbs to kg's when flying and i dont do GAL to Liters. Another problem is that you cannot convert Liters to KG's in a sense of weight.

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 11:31
Yes farber I am sure of my figures, Thank you for asking, and the only reason I went to eight decimal places is because people on this forum tend to try and shoot holes in everything they read. So I was trying to eliminate every possible variable. If my math is wrong then please feel free to correct me. The are the exact same calculations I use in my aircraft when flying around, so they should work in the game. Granted I dont do lbs to kg's when flying and i dont do GAL to Liters. Another problem is that you cannot convert Liters to KG's in a sense of weight.

Let me have a pop at this... :)

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:33
I am anxiously awaiting lol

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 11:35
I am anxiously awaiting lol

You are going to like this. I just want to make it as clear as I can.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:37
If any of my stuff was unclear please let me know how i can elaborate

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 11:38
My calcs:

IN GAME:
If 400lt of 109 fuel is 300kg, this is 0.75kg/lt
If 87 Gallons is 284 KG, that is equivalent to 395 litres @ 284 kg. 284/ 394 = 0.72kg/lt

in my opinion, Folmar's calcs are significantly out.

Gallons to Litre is 1 : 5.54
Gallons are imperial, by the way.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:41
Damnit I just realised my gallons to liters were off hang on.

Robo.
Feb-07-2013, 11:42
what are you writing? Winger was in my squadron. I am flown with him many months, was also his wingman. you have no idea and write nonsense about someone you do not even know?:doh: what you had to do with winger ... absolutely nothing!

I am telling you I know him actually, I fought him on ATAG many times, he's a decent pilot and he likes to whine about his FMs. :D

Regarding the fuel loadouts - I am not sure if you're aware but there is (was) a script on Repka server announcing what the amount of fuel was when player spawned in kg. IIRC 25 percent on a 109 was something like 69kg, but I am not too sure.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 11:42
Damnit I just realised my gallons to liters were off hang on.

Cos you're used to working in US gallons ;)

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:44
Cos you're used to working in US gallons ;)

If only the world used one system...

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 11:46
According to the game, the difference between a 109 with 100% and 0% fuel (400 litres) is 300 kg.

Therefore:

400 litres divided by 300 means that there is 1.33 litres in a kilo of fuel.

300 kilo of mass divided by 400 litres means that there is 0.75 kilo of mass in 1 litre of fuel.


Therefore:

25% Fuel or 100 lires at 0.75kg = 75kg
50% Fuel or 200 lires at 0.75kg = 150kg
75% Fuel or 300 lires at 0.75kg = 225kg
100% Fuel or 400 lires at 0.75kg = 300kg

Now I am assuming but I might be wrong but the British would use Imperial Gallons? If so 1 Imp Gallon would be 4.55 litres.

So 37 Imp gallons would be 159 litres. 159 litres at 0.75 kilo per litre would be 119.25 Kilos.


Feel free to let me know where I went wrong, if I did.

:-P

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 11:47
If only the world used one system...

I'm surprised you didn't notice. When you stated that 87 Octane was "10.4225046 kgs per liter"

How can fuel (which is less dense than water) possibly have more than 10x the mass of water?
1 Liter of Water = ~1kg (depending on temp)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 11:49
According to the game, the difference between a 109 with 100% fuel (400 litres) is 300 kg.

Therefore:

400 litres divided by 300 means that there is 1.33 litres in a kilo of fuel.

300 kilo of mass divided by 400 litres means that there is 0.75 kilo of mass in 1 litre of fuel.


Therefore:

25% Fuel or 100 lires at 0.75kg = 75kg
50% Fuel or 200 lires at 0.75kg = 150kg
75% Fuel or 300 lires at 0.75kg = 225kg
100% Fuel or 400 lires at 0.75kg = 300kg

Now I am assuming but I might be wrong but the British would use Imperial Gallons? If so 1 Imp Gallon would be 4.55 litres.

So 37 Imp gallons would be 159 litres. 159 litres at 0.75 kilo per litre would be 119.25 Kilos.


Fell free to let me know where I went wrong, if I did.

I concur with your calculations.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:50
I'm surprised you didn't notice. When you stated that 87 Octane was "10.4225046 kgs per liter"

How can fuel (which is less dense than water) possibly have more than 10x the mass of water?
1 Liter of Water = ~1kg (depending on temp)

Trying to decypher all of this in my head is giving me a headache at the moment ill be back to check this forum later. I do agree with P's figures and I stand corrected.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:52
Farber can you confirm or deny that the 109 and spitfire IIa are or are not using the same fuel in the game? The difference in the spit IIa 100% and 0% is 294 Kgs so the numbers would be different correct? (as far as kg's per liter)??

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 11:57
Farber can you confirm or deny that the 109 and spitfire IIa are or are not using the same fuel in the game?

They are not. The allies have access to 100 Octane for their aircraft from their American allies.
I am under the impression that the 100 Octane should, in fact, be heavier than the 87....
If this is true, then the game appears to have got the two around the wrong way at the moment.

Does anybody know for sure if (in principle) higher octane fuel is heaver?

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 11:59
Higher octane fuel in the RW is lighter. See my above post with the chart. The fuel weights are accurate. At least in the US lol. The point of all this lest we forget is to prove that the fuel in game is heavier than it is in the real world. I hope the people working on the patch can fix this.

For Reference I am using 1 US Gallon = 3.78541178 Liters

For Reference I am using 100LL corrected to 15 degrees C. weighs 6.02 per US Gallon

For Reference I am using 87 AvGas corrected to 15 degrees C. weights 6.07 per US Gallon

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 12:05
Farber can you confirm or deny that the 109 and spitfire IIa are or are not using the same fuel in the game? The difference in the spit IIa 100% and 0% is 294 Kgs so the numbers would be different correct? (as far as kg's per liter)??



Whats the fuel capacity of the spit? Never mind... is it:

378 litres or around 83 Imp Gallons?



I doubt the fuel has different weights.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:06
Whats the fuel capacity of the spit?

I doubt the fuel has different weights.

87 Gallons, still not sure if that is US or Imperial Gallons of 100 Octane.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 12:07
Higher octane fuel in the RW is lighter. See my above post with the chart. The fuel weights are accurate. At least in the US lol. The point of all this lest we forget is to prove that the fuel in game is heavier than it is in the real world. I hope the people working on the patch can fix this.

See this chart: http://fuels.rpw.com.au/fuel-comparison-chart.html
There is no consistent relationship between octane "motor octane" (column 4) and "specific gravity" (column 5) for fuels.

Granted these are not aviation vehicle fuels.

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 12:10
The spitfire is missing 5 Gallons from its fuel tank space... and it seems to be Imp Gallons...

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:11
The spitfire is missing 5 Gallons from its fuel tank space...
By god! Thats a whole 15 seconds of fuel lol let me stand corrected yet again. According to the spitfire II and IIb POH the top tank held 48 gallons and the bottom held 37 for a total of 85 gallons.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/Spit2Manual.pdf

So its only missing 3 gallons

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 12:12
By god! Thats a whole 15 seconds of fuel lol

Now you are being silly...

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 12:13
Using Folmars RW figures: - I presume your weights are in lb?

For Reference I am using 100LL corrected to 15 degrees C. weighs 6.02 per US Gallon
This equates to 6.02lb per 0.833 Imperial Gallons
This is 2.733 KG to 3.787 Litres
This is 0.72 kg per litre

For Reference I am using 87 AvGas corrected to 15 degrees C. weights 6.07 per US Gallon
This equates to 6.07lb per 0.833 Imperial Gallons
This equates to 2.753 KG to 3.787 Litres
This is 0.73 Kg per Litre

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:14
Using Folmars RW figures: - I presume your weights are in lb?

For Reference I am using 100LL corrected to 15 degrees C. weighs 6.02 per US Gallon
This equates to 6.02lb per 0.833 Imperial Gallons
This is 2.733 KG to 3.787 Litres
This is 0.72 kg per litre

For Reference I am using 87 AvGas corrected to 15 degrees C. weights 6.07 per US Gallon
This equates to 6.07lb per 0.833 Imperial Gallons
This equates to 2.753 KG to 3.787 Litres
This is 0.73 Kg per Litre

Yes US lbs...

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/Spit2Manual.pdf

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 12:15
Using Folmars RW figures: - I presume your weights are in lb?

For Reference I am using 100LL corrected to 15 degrees C. weighs 6.02 per US Gallon
This equates to 6.02lb per 0.833 Imperial Gallons
This is 2.733 KG to 3.787 Litres
This is 0.72 kg per litre

For Reference I am using 87 AvGas corrected to 15 degrees C. weights 6.07 per US Gallon
This equates to 6.07lb per 0.833 Imperial Gallons
This equates to 2.753 KG to 3.787 Litres
This is 0.73 Kg per Litre


Are you still on this? Whats LL?

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:16
Are you still on this? Whats LL?


100 Octane Low Lead fuel (Aviation)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 12:16
Are you still on this? Whats LL?

Hey, I'm quite enjoying this little bit of math.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:20
Hey, I'm quite enjoying this little bit of math.

Gotta have something to do at work right?

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 12:23
So it seems the RAF fuel is slightly lighter. I doubt it. I bet they are both the same and it was figures used in various calculations that resulted in "seemingly" slightly different weights of fuel... Let us not forget the game can only display whole kilograms.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 12:25
So it seems the RAF fuel is slightly lighter. I doubt it. I bet they are both the same and it was figures used in various calculations that resulted in "seemingly" slightly different weights of fuel... Let us not forget the game can only display whole kilograms.

I think you're probably right. In any event, the difference is negligible at these volumes of fluid.

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:27
Why can the game only work with whole Kg's?

LG1.Farber
Feb-07-2013, 12:29
Why can the game only work with whole Kg's?


Because when move the little slider up and down to determine % fuel the display is only to the nearest kilo, there are no decimal places... So our calculations are accurate but not totally accurate, like it would be to 2 or 3 decimal places...

By the way i looked it up on the whizz wheel, its 10 mins flying time in the 109 on eco mode... Not 15 seconds.

:)

92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)
Feb-07-2013, 12:40
I used my Slide rule but I came up with a different number in the spit. but then again im thinking us gallons...lol enjoy your fuel sipping aircraft.

ATAG_Colander
Feb-07-2013, 12:55
Just to add fire wood to the fire :)
I think the imperial gallon was different in 1940 than it is now.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 13:00
Just to add fire wood to the fire :)
I think the imperial gallon was different in 1940 than it is now.

awesome... just awesome :D

ATAG_JTDawg
Feb-07-2013, 14:14
Against human opponents its always the same, you have a split second to make the right choice.

The BF-109 has its weaknesses like any other plane, I've been set alight by Hurricane's from the 71st squadron whilst trying to climb out from a BnZ many times. Once the wings are on fire, you have under 30 seconds of trying to jettison the canopy and bail before the flames spread inside.

Not so easy when your trying to hit CTRL+ J but hitting any other damn key instead.

The best pilots can push their plane to the absolute limit, and how to exploit the enemies weakness.

We who fly RAF, have been changing tactics since the beginning , the 71st an other who have adapted are still here! no more are the days when you can fly by yourself an live ! DRINKINS BKELLUM LOLSLOV etc ( to many to say) are very good pilots that dont seem to have warjunkies problem , . now i want to run something by you , we are working you as a group , if you haven't noticied when you do your b n z we always leave some high , , becouse we know your heading back up, where we are waiting for you to climb back up to spits or hurri ( really dont matter as you are down on speed after zoom ) then say this amazing spit climbed up an shot me , funny part is we were already there waiting = cya in the drink, an i'm out turned everyday by 109s at the edge of total black out . But if you have noticied we fly in some of the biggest fligts on atag , could be 8 to 14 of us in 1 flight looking for any 109s , we fly with as many as it takes to overwhem the hun. , we fly with atag or any body that wants to group up an take it to them. we have found by using better team tactics , we are doing much better , i had over 300 kills in 6 weeks an thats with a rotol . mostly 109s , but even when we would cover bombers blue seemed to be just fine as long as the deck was stacked in there favor , shoot down all bomber , then come after us lol . ( the bad patches ) an shoot us down to , but again thats when winger was at his best . a 1 sided turkey shoot . ADAPT my friend

DK_
Feb-07-2013, 14:22
We who fly RAF, have been changing tactics since the beginning , the 71st an other who have adapted are still here! no more are the days when you can fly by yourself an live ! DRINKINS BKELLUM LOLSLOV etc ( to many to say) are very good pilots that dont seem to have warjunkies problem , . now i want to run something by you , we are working you as a group , if you haven't noticied when you do your b n z we always leave some high , , becouse we know your heading back up, where we are waiting for you to climb back up to spits or hurri ( really dont matter as you are down on speed after zoom ) then say this amazing spit climbed up an shot me , funny part is we were already there waiting = cya in the drink, an i'm out turned everyday by 109s at the edge of total black out . But if you have noticied we fly in some of the biggest fligts on atag , could be 8 to 14 of us in 1 flight looking for any 109s , we fly with as many as it takes to overwhem the hun. , we fly with atag or any body that wants to group up an take it to them. we have found by using better team tactics , we are doing much better , i had over 300 kills in 6 weeks an thats with a rotol . mostly 109s , but even when we would cover bombers blue seemed to be just fine as long as the deck was stacked in there favor , shoot down all bomber , then come after us lol . ( the bad patches ) an shoot us down to , but again thats when winger was at his best . a 1 sided turkey shoot . ADAPT my friend

As a mediocre to bad 109 pilot I have taken to recording my sorties to see what happened to me after trying to escape several times. Starting with a 4K bounce by a spit or hurri I have in the past tried to use the 109's "superior dive" to run away and no matter what that guy is right on me! Then I realized maybe it was two, one high and one low aircraft because I could not out climb or out dive the guy! I have noticed there is rarely one red and you guys are usually using unfair tactics like team work (KIDDING) rendering my "uber" 109 less uber, ha ha.

Note, I am situationaly challenged mostly because I have to use the keyboard to look around. One of these days I gotta get a head tracking thingy so I can look around!

Cheers

ATAG_Colander
Feb-07-2013, 14:32
Note, I am situationaly challenged mostly because I have to use the keyboard to look around. One of these days I gotta get a head tracking thingy so I can look around!

Ohm, that thingy indeed helps.

SA is very very very (did I say very?) important when dealing with more than 1 bandit. Even if there are the same number of friendlies, you need to not only know where the bandits are but where your friends are at all times.

On the other hand, knowing when is better to run is as important :)

Colander.

ATAG_JTDawg
Feb-07-2013, 14:48
As a mediocre to bad 109 pilot I have taken to recording my sorties to see what happened to me after trying to escape several times. Starting with a 4K bounce by a spit or hurri I have in the past tried to use the 109's "superior dive" to run away and no matter what that guy is right on me! Then I realized maybe it was two, one high and one low aircraft because I could not out climb or out dive the guy! I have noticed there is rarely one red and you guys are usually using unfair tactics like team work (KIDDING) rendering my "uber" 109 less uber, ha ha.

Note, I am situationaly challenged mostly because I have to use the keyboard to look around. One of these days I gotta get a head tracking thingy so I can look around!

Cheers

use f10 to look around with your mouse , i dont use tracker ir or rudder peddles , i'm old school :)

DK_
Feb-07-2013, 14:56
use f10 to look around with your mouse , i dont use tracker ir or rudder peddles , i'm old school :)

No rudder pedals? Do you control them at all or just let the plane weather vane?

ATAG_JTDawg
Feb-07-2013, 15:02
No rudder pedals? Do you control them at all or just let the plane weather vane?

x-52 pro twist on joystick rudders lol trak ir makes me sick

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-07-2013, 17:08
We who fly RAF, have been changing tactics since the beginning , the 71st an other who have adapted are still here! no more are the days when you can fly by yourself an live ! DRINKINS BKELLUM LOLSLOV etc ( to many to say) are very good pilots that dont seem to have warjunkies problem , . now i want to run something by you , we are working you as a group , if you haven't noticied when you do your b n z we always leave some high , , becouse we know your heading back up,

This is exactly what we do now too. sooner or later the 109 is going to climb back up. You can watch from a distance to see where (what alt.) the "top" of his climb is,and just head to that locatino. 5 time out of 10 he will meet you there and you can clobber him.

Osprey
Feb-08-2013, 03:02
As a mediocre to bad 109 pilot I have taken to recording my sorties to see what happened to me after trying to escape several times. Starting with a 4K bounce by a spit or hurri I have in the past tried to use the 109's "superior dive" to run away and no matter what that guy is right on me! Then I realized maybe it was two, one high and one low aircraft because I could not out climb or out dive the guy! I have noticed there is rarely one red and you guys are usually using unfair tactics like team work (KIDDING) rendering my "uber" 109 less uber, ha ha.

Note, I am situationaly challenged mostly because I have to use the keyboard to look around. One of these days I gotta get a head tracking thingy so I can look around!

Cheers


Hi DK, you have an excellent spirit and approach mate - with this attitude you'll always improve and enjoy it. Like our friend Warjunkie who joined us last night (and I hope had more success or could at least see light at the end of the tunnel), I would also like to invite you to join us on Teamspeak and the next time you find yourself being chased you'll have a friend of your own to help you out :) You are clearly a native English speaker this though so I would recommend hooking up with 5./JG27 this time - Farber is in charge of that pack of hounds.

If you feel that IL2 is for you then you need 2 things though - A headset for comms and TrackIR/Freetrack. These will change your game as much as being in a crew.

TS
85.236.100.27:24637
password 'acg'

I think they PW their channel so poke the buggers via TS or in game chat if you can't get in. Don't be shy, they won't mind at all.

Best of luck
~S~

Osprey
Feb-08-2013, 03:07
No rudder pedals? Do you control them at all or just let the plane weather vane?


JT is a 'stick in the gut' variety ;) He get's a perverted kick out of being the bait for his buddies to pick off :maddriver:

DK_
Feb-08-2013, 12:48
...
Best of luck
~S~

Thanks O, I'll try it out but most of the time this is what I see on TS. Lots of Red and few Blue.

S!