PDA

View Full Version : Blenheim versus Bf 110



Atreides
Feb-10-2013, 13:24
Hi all,

When I'm in a Bf110 and get into a turn-fight with a Blenheim, the latter always out-turns me. Also, my gunner doesn't want to shoot it, probably to terrified seeing such a large plane behind it.

Does anyone of you have a few tips on how to dogfight a Blenheim? I can't imagine it could stand against a 110 historically.

Atreides

III./ZG76_Keller
Feb-10-2013, 13:34
The only chance a 110 has against a Blenheim is to boom and zoom, you can't turn with a Blenny.

Atreides
Feb-10-2013, 13:36
The only chance a 110 has against a Blenheim is to boom and zoom, you can't turn with a Blenny.

Hmmm, ok. Is that historical?

III./ZG76_Keller
Feb-10-2013, 13:39
I don't know about historical, but that's the way it is in CloD.

Atreides
Feb-10-2013, 13:52
Ok. Guess I just have to accept a fighter-bomber is modeled less maneuverable than a bomber and refrain from charging in blindly :ind:

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-10-2013, 16:51
have a 109 on ts3 on call, thats what i do.

Robo.
Feb-10-2013, 17:19
Hmmm, ok. Is that historical?

Hi mate, yes it is actually, the Blenheim has had a much better turn rate than Bf 110 (cca 18 seconds vs cca 25), I was wondering the same thing. :thumbsup:

LG1.Farber
Feb-10-2013, 17:34
Hi mate, yes it is actually, the Blenheim has had a much better turn rate than Bf 110 (cca 18 seconds vs cca 25), I was wondering the same thing. :thumbsup:

Robo would you have any references on that or do we just have to take your memory for it? Not that I think you pulled it all from under your cushion but after all we are all flight enthusiasts and therefore we love nothing greater than a poke around in the physics lab! I do realise that the Blenheim was also a fighter configuration but I would like to see some facts - you know, made by engineers not IT guys...

Thanks.

1lokos
Feb-10-2013, 22:37
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8465/blenheinfighter.jpg

:thumbsup:

Sokol1

II/JG53 Rolf
Feb-11-2013, 00:22
Wow. Blen had 18 seconds? Could you post some references? Anyway, according to German tests, Me-109 E had sustained turn 18 seconds...:stunned:

Robo.
Feb-11-2013, 03:02
Robo would you have any references on that or do we just have to take your memory for it? Not that I think you pulled it all from under your cushion but after all we are all flight enthusiasts and therefore we love nothing greater than a poke around in the physics lab! I do realise that the Blenheim was also a fighter configuration but I would like to see some facts - you know, made by engineers not IT guys...

Thanks.

I know what you mean, I was looking for the the same references I found on this topic a good while ago and I would post them here if I could find them quickly enough. The info might have been from the G. Warners Blehneim 'bible' or a book I have about Blenheim / Beaufighter developement, but I have not got them with me at the moment (till April). I highly recommend the first one if you're interested to see facts made by engineers, it's very comprehensive.

Rolf yes that is right, I was also a bit surprised to be honest as the difference was even bigger than I thought. If you compare the two aircraft (110 and Blenheim Mk.IV), they're about the same size, so it's not like a huge bomber is outturning a nimble fighter. Weights are also very similar, mind you the Blennie had a massive range you never meet a fully tanked one on ATAG. Blenheim has lower speed and more wing area so that's why. Also it should be noted that the best turning times I posted (very approximately mind you) are achieved on very different speeds - Bf 110s being much higher - so go figure what happens when you go low and slow. :thumbsup: You'd need to use your speed and RoC advantage in combat in CloD or in real life.

Osprey
Feb-11-2013, 11:45
Ok. Guess I just have to accept a fighter-bomber is modeled less maneuverable than a bomber and refrain from charging in blindly :ind:

Whether it is true or not is one thing but if it should be is something else. One may think that the 110, being a fighter, should out-turn a bomber by default, but that is not always going to be true. In 'Bomber Boys' there are accounts of Halifax pilots entering a hard turn when six'd by a Ju88 because they could out turn it - I'd doubt anybody would expect that........

I would expect the 110 to have a much great wing loading tbh, clearly we're going to have to look it up!

Oersted
Feb-11-2013, 20:21
It makes perfect sense that the Blennie can outturn the 110. The 110 has a higher wing loading since it is heavier (bigger engines) and faster (due to the bigger engines). Boom and zoom is exactly the way to deal with the Blennie in that case.

ATAG_Snarglepuss
Feb-26-2013, 12:34
The Blennie has one (1) wee widdle gun in the left wing, not in the schnoz. The 110 has what 2...4..and cannon? If that ain't advantage enough then.....run away..or
Beware The Bloated Blennie....and.....Fear The PUSS... :-P

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-26-2013, 12:54
human blenies outrun 110s on the deck easily.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-26-2013, 12:58
The Blennie has one (1) wee widdle gun in the left wing, not in the schnoz. The 110 has what 2...4..and cannon? If that ain't advantage enough then.....run away..or
Beware The Bloated Blennie....and.....Fear The PUSS... :-P

yeah but with no tailgunner in the 110 that single gun can shred the 110

9./ZG26Eicken
Feb-26-2013, 14:08
If you are somehow letting a Blenheim get on your six in a 110, you are doing something very, very wrong.


human blenies outrun 110s on the deck easily.

Is that historical at all? I always thought the BB MkIV had a much lower top speed than that of a 110C4.

Osprey
Feb-27-2013, 06:54
Or is it even true in game Eicken? You fly the Bf110, do you get outrun by Blennies? I find that hard to believe because I can't catch a 110 in my Hurricane but I have no trouble catching up with Blennies.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-27-2013, 08:11
human blenies outrun 110s on the deck easily.

I do not believe this.

With no bombs, and 50% fuel I can get the Blenheim up to just over 240 mph (386 kph) indicated at close to sea level (~500ft) - with 110% throttle (boost cut out enabled, various rad and prop combinations)
With no bombs, and 50% fuel I can get the 110-C7 up to just over 420 kph (260 mph) indicated at close to sea level (~500ft) with 100% on both engines. I'm not sure if the 110-C7 has any kind of WEP or extra boost. I could not find one.

My conclusion, the 110-C7 is 8% faster than then Blenheim IV on the deck when both are without bombs and have 50% fuel load.

I have only ever flown the 110-C7 once - just now, and within 5 minutes I had it travelling faster than any Blenheim I have ever flown (in a straight line) - that is, if the ASI is to be believed. If the ASI's are wrong, then the next step would be to run two of them side bide side, or to time them over a set distance.

I can upload the videos of my two test on to youtube later today to show how I conducted these tests.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-27-2013, 09:04
meh, it is what it is.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-27-2013, 09:13
meh, it is what it is.
Yes, it (the 110 C7) is what it is (faster on the deck than the Blenheim IV).

9./ZG26Eicken
Feb-27-2013, 09:13
Or is it even true in game Eicken? You fly the Bf110, do you get outrun by Blennies? I find that hard to believe because I can't catch a 110 in my Hurricane but I have no trouble catching up with Blennies.

Well, I am not 100% sure to be honest. When ever I attack a Blennheim, I am usually in a dive and coming in with greater speed anyway. But from what I have read, albeit it online, the Blennheim should not be able to pull away from a 110. Although, maybe it has a faster acceleration? The 110 even in real life took a long time to regain any lost energy, so if you have been pulling unnecessary maneuvers and then go after a Blennheim, that may explain why they are getting away initially.

And seriously? you can't catch a 110 in your hurricane? That is a new one to me Osprey. I have been caught many times by Hurricanes coming in on my six, usually after attacking Hawkinge or Lympne at low level.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-27-2013, 09:23
And seriously? you can't catch a 110 in your hurricane? That is a new one to me Osprey. I have been caught many times by Hurricanes coming in on my six, usually after attacking Hawkinge or Lympne at low level.

hmm, interesting...

The 110-C7 will do 260mph after having dropped it's bombs, at 100% throttle. Well, I can get them to 260, but I've only flown them for 5 minutes. An experienced 110 pilot could possibly get more speed from them.
I don't actually know what the top sea-level speed of the 100-Oct hurricanes is in the game, but I suspect it is around 270mph*? This would be only just enough to slowly catch a 110-C7.
A diving hurricane will be able to pick him up of course, but a flying-level hurricane will struggle - but I suspect, given enough time, it should be possible to catch....A climbing hurricane (even very slight climb - more than 500 fpm or so) will not be able to maintain 260mph indicated for very long, if at all.

Most of the hurris spawn at lympne, so if you get caught low by a hurri at Hawkinge, he probably dived down on to you.
A hurricane getting airborne from lympe should have a really, really tough time catching a 110.

* - This is a total guess! I would like to be corrected by someone who knows

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-27-2013, 09:46
I think you also have to think about the missions for the 110. Its easy to say go with 25% fuel. Thats ok if you just wanna boom and zoom mid channel. But i personally fly for the map objectives. To make it down to B5 with 2x500s and have fuel to make it back maybe it can be done. But, with all the AAA and the chance of meeting "tommy" with fuel @25% it wouldn't take much of a leak to make it a one way trip. Usually you do take damage from the ground aaa.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-27-2013, 09:57
I think you also have to think about the missions for the 110. Its easy to say go with 25% fuel. Thats ok if you just wanna boom and zoom mid channel. But i personally fly for the map objectives. To make it down to B5 with 2x500s and have fuel to make it back maybe it can be done. But, with all the AAA and the chance of meeting "tommy" with fuel @25% it wouldn't take much of a leak to make it a one way trip. Usually you do take damage from the ground aaa.

The flak is a problem for the blennies too. A lone blenheim seldom makes it home.
However, it really does help, in game if you have two or three others with you, whether they are 109s or other 110s.
The flak is considerably less dense when it has multiple targets to shoot at.

Too often I see the 110s trying to pull off a lone-wolf bombing run on Manston, or Ramsgate. Within 30 seconds there will be four spitfires and 10 flak guns all shooting at the poor guy. If there were two 110s and two 109s, it would be a different story!

Also too often (I'm guilt here because I've done this too) the Blenheims get airborne from the two usual places and just fly direct to the target. By now everyone knows the missions and it's too easy to look at the player list and know exactly where the bombers will be..... In real life, the bombers flew away from the target, gained some height, then flew dog-leg paths to their targets to avoid the fighters and the flak. Many of them got shot down, but still many made it home because of their good flight planing skills.

9./ZG26Eicken
Feb-27-2013, 11:13
Too often I see the 110s trying to pull off a lone-wolf bombing run on Manston, or Ramsgate. Within 30 seconds there will be four spitfires and 10 flak guns all shooting at the poor guy. If there were two 110s and two 109s, it would be a different story!

Also too often (I'm guilt here because I've done this too) the Blenheims get airborne from the two usual places and just fly direct to the target.

Yeah, I am also guilty of this also, and have certainly been on the receiving end of a dangerous conga line of angry Spitfires and Hurricanes after going solo over England. Not healthy at all :)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-27-2013, 18:46
Hi guys, as promised here are the two tests of the speeds at low level I made earlier:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSTslx1BDyQ&

This might, of course, no longer be relevant "shortly"...

9./ZG26Eicken
Feb-28-2013, 14:02
Very good video Philstyle

Skoshi_Tiger
Feb-28-2013, 20:54
Generally when flying the Blenhiem I'ld only take about 20-30% fuel load. On the ATAG missions that gives me enough fuel for travel to target, a number of passes over the target, maybe a diversion to a secondary target and a high speed run back to base with fuel to spare.

The Blenhiem does take a bit of time to get up to speed but you should be able to get up to about 250mph down low. Cource pitch, full throttle, boost cutout on, rads at about 40-50%. you should be making about 2400RPM (maybe a bit under).

After takeoff using fine pitch, full throttle and boost cutout you should find your engines are making 2400+ RPM. When you select coarse pitch they will drop to down under 2000RPM. I think the boost cutout gets disenguaged (even though the lever is still in the on position)

To get the high RPM and top speed with cource pitch you need to drop throttle down to about 70% and then toggle the boost cutout so its selected again and then raise the throttle to full again. You should get back up to around 2400RPM again. I keep an eye on the oil temps to keep it about 80C, CHT should be in the 220- 230C range.

As long as everything is going good I can fly straight and level indefinately at those settings.

Once you drop your bombs the Blenhiem is quite nimble with low fuel, but you are in a bomber and your better off staying out of trouble rather than mixing it with the fighters (110 included)- though there has been some laughs and giggle when guys in Blenhiems turn the tables on the fighters!

Team speak and our Little Friends have saved my bacon more times than I can count!

Cheers!

ATAG_Bliss
Feb-28-2013, 21:14
If you are somehow letting a Blenheim get on your six in a 110, you are doing something very, very wrong.

Don't let this one get on your six :D

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3379/blenny2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/blenny2.png/)

Skoshi_Tiger
Feb-28-2013, 22:30
Belly guns and radar????????

I think I'ld better start eating some carrots in preparation for some night time interceptions!!!!!


Too cool!

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-28-2013, 23:54
nice

III./ZG76_Saipan
Mar-01-2013, 00:06
Yes, it (the 110 C7) is what it is (faster on the deck than the Blenheim IV).

maybe under certain settings, depends....

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-01-2013, 05:02
maybe under certain settings, depends....

Right, this is true. A badly flown 110 with bombs on and full fuel will probably not catch a well flown Blenheim without bombs and low fuel load.

ATAG_Snarglepuss
Mar-01-2013, 10:18
Don't let this one get on your six :D

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3379/blenny2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/blenny2.png/)

......"no one knows from where is coming the Snargle".......but he comes. :grrr:.....fear The PUSS:-P