The bf110 (and other types?) Gunner Bug

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Hi all, just picked up this interesting point abou the rear gunners from this thread: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...4161#post34161

It was posted by 1Lokos. I have paraphrased him thus:

The game models it so that the gunners have trouble firing when the aircraft is maneuvering (above 5m/s)?! It assumes that the gunner would be "holding on" to something in the cokpit and therefore, unable to freely operate the guns and fire..

I think this is a nice touch, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. In a Boeing B-17 I could understand that a waist gunner would have trouble, but sitting down in a bf-110.. .. maybe it would be easier

I think the bf-110 rear gunner should be able to fire at least at low G. But MAYBE the machine guns should be hard to move at high-G - unless the aiming mechanism is entirely electrical?
What about the real-life Stuka, is the rear-gunner's aim assisted mechanically/ electrically?
What is the gunner turret on the Blenheim like in real life? Was it powered, or did the pilot have to swing the guns around with his own strength?

[il_corleone]

I hope TF will do his best fixing this, becose this bug is lethal on all of Player controled planes, is like you were without weapons, like an unarmed plane, now you can get on the six of a 110 and you will not be touched by fire, also y find the ia Fligths very Accuracy with this, i hope TF edit the G of the gunner to be atleast half and more than the g,s of the pilot. also the accuracy of "bot gunners" Salute!

[LG1.Farber]

Doesnt the 110 gunner have a lap belt? Stuka gun is mechanical...

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

We know about this, are working to fix, won't be in the first release.

[il_corleone]

Salute

We know about this, are working to fix, won't be in the first release.

Thanks, hope it gets fixed soon and is not problematic, Salute!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Salute

We know about this, are working to fix, won't be in the first release.

Cheers, just want to make sure it's fixed correctly though - as I'm sure you chaps are ;)

If the gunners had to move the guns around with their own strength, then I can totally understanding that it would be difficult to use them nuder high G-load.
However, if the gun movement was mechanical, then I can't see how a little bit of maneuvering would affect someone's ability to pull the trigger ;)

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Doesnt the 110 gunner have a lap belt? Stuka gun is mechanical...

A lap-belt to secure the gun? Or a lap belt to keep the gunner in his seat?
I think he'd have at least a harness would;t he?
I can't imagine they'd leave those guys to float lose about the cockpit!

The rear-gunner implementation seems really odd as it currently is.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

not in the first release....:(

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

not in the first release....:(

never mind. stick with it! We will get it eventually ;)

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

There is also a bug which prevents a human gunner from firing the guns properly in flight, he can do it no problem on the field, but when the aircraft is in flight, the guns stop after a few rounds.

The number of bugs in this game is quite astounding. Big fat hairy ones all over. :die:

[Kling]

Big fat hairy ones all over. :die:

Sounds like you have tried looking for women in the Belgium area.. :P

[LG1.Farber]

A lap-belt to secure the gun? Or a lap belt to keep the gunner in his seat?
I think he'd have at least a harness would;t he?
I can't imagine they'd leave those guys to float lose about the cockpit!

The rear-gunner implementation seems really odd as it currently is.

LOL you are funny. How would he have a harness when he is sitting on a bench....

[LG1.Klein]

Also, is the problem where if you switch to your gunner then back to pilot your gunner no longer is operational going to be looked at? Or does this bug already have a workaround. As it stands right now I just never switch to my gunner. If I were to switch to my gunner it's like the AI says ok he is yours now keep him and the AI never comes back.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

LOL you are funny. How would he have a harness when he is sitting on a bench....

I despair....

[9./ZG26Eicken]

Just glad this is also being worked on, thank you TF guys :D

[Stigler]

I think I brought up the default Player AI gunner skill setting a long while back here for the AI in an MP server setting discussion.

The default MP Player AI are set (.exe coded?)to the lowest or very low settings and it was stated by those of us who flew the bf110 that we may as well have not even had the gun weight for its uselessness as AI. Even in a low g turn the gun rarely plinked anything, it would be nice if the default level for AI was brought up enough to be at least historically accurate, I know they rarely got kills on real life experienced pilots, but trust me at times in MP with lazy fighters not attacking from the correct aspect or speed they in reality would have lost their engine if not their life, in online MP, when with the default settings the guns completely missed for sustained bursts.

Far too easy to fly up slowly on a Bf-110 and never take a hit even when it really should hit something, instead it leads to delusional skill for the fighter pilot involved. :)

I certainly do not want the unrealistic overly accurate IL-2 gunners, but something better than the default clod AI. Or just give me the option to ditch the weight, lol.

So I am here based on an email on the patch, I had written off Clod as dead, before they closed up shop, lol.

edit: and this would also help with the Blenheim and Ju-88/He-111. The Ju-88 a1 in Clod lacked its historical speed advantage never mind the all ai guns never hitting anything.

Hello 9./ZG26 Eicken and Klein and 5./JG27 Farber. :)

Note: I have been playing Planetside 2 since beta but I doubt they will ever add analog flight control bindings or Track IR support no matter how many posts we make asking for it, and they nerfed my op Magrider! lol . I may have to go back to Clod, DCS A-10 or KA-50 takes to much time to relearn every time I stop for flying them for more than a month, (I blame alchohol), and FSX with addons is great, but there are no GUNS!

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Also, is the problem where if you switch to your gunner then back to pilot your gunner no longer is operational going to be looked at? Or does this bug already have a workaround. As it stands right now I just never switch to my gunner. If I were to switch to my gunner it's like the AI says ok he is yours now keep him and the AI never comes back.

If you're in a gunner spot hit Alt+F2 and the AI will take over again. Just don't press Alt+F2 when you're in the pilot's seat. You can confirm this in net stats window as it will say Pilot, Gunner or some other crew position. If it just says pilot than the AI have full control of the other crew positions.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

The Ju-88 a1 in Clod lacked its historical speed advantage

All flyable Bomber Flight models have been revised.

Last time I tested, Ju-88 did 415kph at sea level. And its ceiling is over 9000m.

[Stigler]

All flyable Bomber Flight models have been revised.

Last time I tested, Ju-88 did 415kph at sea level. And its ceiling is over 9000m.

Oh wow that is awesome, the Ju-88 is all I really flew in IL-2. If they also help the player ai gunners a hair, I will be back to flying it and the Bf-110 all the time.

I had started a thread on the Ju-88a1 Jumo 211B before I quite playing clod, and never finished following up on it. Glad someone with more know how is working on it now.

Ju-88 a1 Jumo 211B BETA 1.08.18956

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33776

edit: If you happen to read the engine thread ignore the red line, I had pmed one guy that it was not legit and just use the graph w/o it and the other charts, before I stopped using forums.

Excellent news, I was just looking all over for TF FM changes. Thanks

[9./ZG26Eicken]

Hello 9./ZG26 Eicken and Klein and 5./JG27 Farber. :)


Is that Stigler who was in 9./ZG26? :)

[Stigler]

Is that Stigler who was in 9./ZG26? :)

Yes, how are you all. I wrote clod off as a bomber/110 pilot, until I saw this patch email in my inbox.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Yes, how are you all. I wrote clod off as a bomber/110 pilot, until I saw this patch email in my inbox.

Here's another thing for Bomber Bonkers to get excited about:

Ivank discovered Radio Beacons can be activated in the game, this can be used with the German aircraft's Lorenz radio direction finding, to 'Bomb Blind'. Therefore it would be possible to set up a nightbombing 'Blitz' campaign with this as one of the features.

We already have people running successful tests with this.

[Stigler]

Here's another thing for Bomber Bonkers to get excited about:

Ivank discovered Radio Beacons can be activated in the game, this can be used with the German aircraft's Lorenz radio direction finding, to 'Bomb Blind'. Therefore it would be possible to set up a nightbombing 'Blitz' campaign with this as one of the features.

We already have people running successful tests with this.

Sounds great. Very exciting times, I flew Ju-88 full switch most of the time in IL-2 and the navigation was the funnest part. (and making it home in one piece damaged w/ leaks)

Really I would be happy for just the Bf-110 FM to get a little historical attention to match the attention the spit and hurricane received (ubi patches) on the max speeds along with Ju-88 and the player AI gunners a little bump in default skill, because combined it makes the bombers/110 fodder for even a sloppy non standard fighter attack. Closure rates are currently too high and even altitude and trimmed clean as a whistle for max speed w/correct ata, as soon as a speck (spit or hurr) spots you, its time to jettison bombs (110) in most cases. The DM also seems a bit weak but liveable for now while more important things are worked on.

I am definitely looking forward to all the other fixes and additions in the works, but those two things would have me not feeling so "nerfed" I suppose is the word for it. I do feel as though my gunners in IL-2 were a bit too good. (mmm Betty 20mm cannon, how I miss thee.)

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Really I would be happy for just the Bf-110 FM to get a little historical attention

110 probably has had more attention than any other plane in the set. Including fixes for the fuel control system glitches, cockpit graphics changes, revised FM and other changes.

And we expect to have several new versions added with the 2nd Release.

[Stigler]

110 probably has had more attention than any other plane in the set. Including fixes for the fuel control system glitches, cockpit graphics changes, revised FM and other changes.

Stop, I am about to click that clod icon I have not clicked on in seven months, and warm up in anticipation. Your evil! :)

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

do it stig, hit that button. yes it sux without the tailgunner but that firepower up front is pretty sweet.

[ATAG_Bliss]

110 probably has had more attention than any other plane in the set. Including fixes for the fuel control system glitches, cockpit graphics changes, revised FM and other changes.

And we expect to have several new versions added with the 2nd Release.

The new 110 is fabulous :)

[III./ZG76_Keller]

The new 110 is fabulous :)

Flew that 110C-4 for two hours last night, transferred fuel from rear tanks to front tanks, and landed with 170 litres left in each front tank.

I'm so happy that 120 - 160 minute flight times are again a reality!

[II/JG53_Felix]

Great to hear your 110 news Bliss and Keller. Really looking forward to the patch.

Re Gunners. Rudel in his book seemed very supportive of the gunner's contribution. Even lamenting their loss when transferring to the FW-190. Maybe the axis gunners get a bad rap. Certainly, we all know in the current CLoD state they are not worth having on-board!

Also looking forward to seeing your work on the JU88.

Over-used term, but awesome work Team Fusion!

[Archie]

Exciting times ahead! :)

[Osprey]

I don't really see the comparison between Rudel and a Bf110. It's a different type. And even worse is the waist gunner analogy in the B17. The 110 is a heavy fighter, it dogfights. I'm all for having an operable gun but if it ends up like 1946 then that would be bonkers. I would expect the gun to become harder to use as the manoeuvre becomes more severe, it's common sense.

[SG1_sandokito]

All flyable Bomber Flight models have been revised.

Last time I tested, Ju-88 did 415kph at sea level. And its ceiling is over 9000m.

Hi sorry 415?? :O:O:O

manual data Ju 88
a) Cruising speeds when mixture control is in position Lean (Arm) and enriching lever in
position Normal:

ALTITUDE Vw SUPERCHARGUER ATA RPM
300 350 low 1,15 2250
2000 390 low 1,15 "
4000 400 high " "
6000 400 " 1,10-1,15 "


b) Maximum speeds when mixture control is in position Rich (Reich) and enriching lever in
position Normal:

ALTITUDE Vw SUPERCHARGUER ATA RPM
300 375 low 1.25 2400
2000 410 " " "
4000 415 high " "
6000 425 " 1.15-1.25 "

I n p o i n t s a a n d b : the change of enriching to position Rich (Reich) will happen
automatically when the lever is set to position Normal and manifold pressure reaches 1,17 1,23
ATA.
C o n s u m p t i o n o f e n g i n e o i l at 2250 RPM and manifold pressure at 1,15 ATA, is at
the maximum ca. 12 litres per hour per engine.

sorry for off topic and for my bad English

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

I don't really see the comparison between Rudel and a Bf110. It's a different type. And even worse is the waist gunner analogy in the B17. The 110 is a heavy fighter, it dogfights. I'm all for having an operable gun but if it ends up like 1946 then that would be bonkers. I would expect the gun to become harder to use as the manoeuvre becomes more severe, it's common sense.

Seeing as I first proposed the B-17 analogy, I'd just respond that I think we probably agree Osprey, if you read a little more carefully you'll see what I mean. :salute:

[9./ZG26Eicken]

110 probably has had more attention than any other plane in the set. Including fixes for the fuel control system glitches, cockpit graphics changes, revised FM and other changes.

And we expect to have several new versions added with the 2nd Release.

I think, I think I am about to cry :(


Seeing as I first proposed the B-17 analogy, I'd just respond that I think we probably agree Osprey, if you read a little more carefully you'll see what I mean. :salute:

I also agree with the both of you. If it becomes like it was in Il2 1946, then we have a problem I think. Just to have it usable though would be nice, that's all I want and if I could maybe shoot down down say, 2 in 20 red getting greedy on my six, I would be even more happy :D


Yes, how are you all. I wrote clod off as a bomber/110 pilot, until I saw this patch email in my inbox.

We are thriving mate, we have new dedicated pilots flying with us throughout the week and on Sundays in the campaign. You're always welcome back Stigler, your crate is just sitting in the hanger, under a tarp gathering dust.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

I also agree with the both of you. If it becomes like it was in Il2 1946, then we have a problem I think. Just to have it usable though would be nice, that's all I want and if I could maybe shoot down down say, 2 in 20 red getting greedy on my six, I would be even more happy :D


I tell you what, the few times that I actually get to see those tracers starting to reach out towards me, I usually think twice about pressing my attack. If your gunners worked all the time, you might not need to shoot the reds down, they might be more shy about approaching in the first place ;)

[Osprey]

I wouldn't mind being one of those two in twenty Eicken if it meant running into more Bf110's than we presently do. I guess a lot of that is down to underperformance - it sounds like the dog days are nearly over though :thumbsup:

[92 Sqn. Folmar (QJ-F)]

I've been messing around with both 110 Variants and I'm really looking forward to learning more about them with the new patch it's a beautiful twin for its day and holds up pretty well at least from my experiences. S!

[9./ZG26Eicken]

I wouldn't mind being one of those two in twenty Eicken if it meant running into more Bf110's than we presently do. I guess a lot of that is down to underperformance - it sounds like the dog days are nearly over though :thumbsup:

The dog days will never truly be over I am afraid, but at least we might be able to go with more survivability than we currently do. Not saying we don't have any, just a little more would be nice :P

[il_corleone]

Hi sorry 415?? :O:O:O

manual data Ju 88
a) Cruising speeds when mixture control is in position Lean (Arm) and enriching lever in
position Normal:

ALTITUDE Vw SUPERCHARGUER ATA RPM
300 350 low 1,15 2250
2000 390 low 1,15 "
4000 400 high " "
6000 400 " 1,10-1,15 "


b) Maximum speeds when mixture control is in position Rich (Reich) and enriching lever in
position Normal:

ALTITUDE Vw SUPERCHARGUER ATA RPM
300 375 low 1.25 2400
2000 410 " " "
4000 415 high " "
6000 425 " 1.15-1.25 "

I n p o i n t s a a n d b : the change of enriching to position Rich (Reich) will happen
automatically when the lever is set to position Normal and manifold pressure reaches 1,17 1,23
ATA.
C o n s u m p t i o n o f e n g i n e o i l at 2250 RPM and manifold pressure at 1,15 ATA, is at
the maximum ca. 12 litres per hour per engine.

sorry for off topic and for my bad English


:thumbsup: Nice chart hope TF see this

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Hi sorry 415?? :O:O:O

manual data Ju 88
a) Cruising speeds when mixture control is in position Lean (Arm) and enriching lever in
position Normal:

ALTITUDE Vw SUPERCHARGUER ATA RPM
300 350 low 1,15 2250
2000 390 low 1,15 "
4000 400 high " "
6000 400 " 1,10-1,15 "


b) Maximum speeds when mixture control is in position Rich (Reich) and enriching lever in
position Normal:

ALTITUDE Vw SUPERCHARGUER ATA RPM
300 375 low 1.25 2400
2000 410 " " "
4000 415 high " "
6000 425 " 1.15-1.25 "

I n p o i n t s a a n d b : the change of enriching to position Rich (Reich) will happen
automatically when the lever is set to position Normal and manifold pressure reaches 1,17 1,23
ATA.
C o n s u m p t i o n o f e n g i n e o i l at 2250 RPM and manifold pressure at 1,15 ATA, is at
the maximum ca. 12 litres per hour per engine.

sorry for off topic and for my bad English

Uprated Jumo is capable of 1.35ata/2400rpm for 1 minute.

[1lokos]

Here's another thing for Bomber Bonkers to get excited about:

Ivank discovered Radio Beacons can be activated in the game, this can be used with the German aircraft's Lorenz radio direction finding, to 'Bomb Blind'. Therefore it would be possible to set up a nightbombing 'Blitz' campaign with this as one of the features.

We already have people running successful tests with this.

I fiddle with Beacon objects in FMB and actually Radio Beacon and Long Range Antennas work.
Like search lights (now with infrared light...) hey need a generator and IA antiair object with script PowerOn.

But the only plane able to correctly track the signals is Br20.

I made a SP mission for CAI with this guindance system, the only thing I a not able to know
is when I reach the target area.

In ATAG the Br20 instrument pick signal form some antennas, ie near Tramecourt - for default antennas are setting at 300MHZ.

In Ju-88, He-111, Ju-87, Bf-110 the instrument (ANF1/2) is no able to fix in the signal.
The AFN-1/2 needle floats crazy when frequencys are tuned.

Lorenz Outer and Inner marks antennas are correctly detected by planes that fly above then.
But without ability of AFN-1/2 to track the signal, not usefull. Probable I lost some detail...

In Br20 the lights for Lorenz are in Navigator cockpit - is not practical pilot the plane and monitoring lights for this place...

In Bf-110 you are not able to select frequency, so pick only antennas with default signal (300MHZ).

Sokol1

[Stigler]

Yes. Off topic but I remember watching the dev of Clod, and I was so excited that I would be able to strafe a generator and knock the lights out. Oh well. The working detailed radios too but that is a whole other story.

[SG1_sandokito]

Uprated Jumo is capable of 1.35ata/2400rpm for 1 minute.


False :D, Ju88A1 pilot notes

1 min power nmax= 2600 +-20 or -50 RPM
pmax= 1,40 + /- 0,03 ATA

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

False :D, Ju88A1 pilot notes

1 min power nmax= 2600 +-20 or -50 RPM
pmax= 1,40 + /- 0,03 ATA

Before you start accusing people of false statements, you should check your facts. You are quoting figures from the Ju-88 A1-A5 "Flugzeug-Handbuch' manual which is dated November 1941.

The ratings in that manual are for aircraft with uprated engines.

Our sources, which are from the German Ju-88A1 manual dated March 1940, and British reports on Ju-88's captured during the BoB show 1.35ata/2400rpm, and that is what we are using.

This is the last time I respond on this issue.

[SG1_sandokito]

Before you start accusing people of false statements, you should check your facts. You are quoting figures from the Ju-88 A1-A5 "Flugzeug-Handbuch' manual which is dated November 1941.

The ratings in that manual are for aircraft with uprated engines.

Our sources, which are from the German Ju-88A1 manual dated March 1940, and British reports on Ju-88's captured during the BoB show 1.35ata/2400rpm, and that is what we are using.

This is the last time I respond on this issue.


Sorry:( i no accusing people, i spanis boy and i use google traslator.

I have ju88 user manual 1941, ju88 1940 manual, and another manual of this plane.

you're rightI read it in 1941 pilot notes.

sorry me if you thought someone accused of lying:(:(:(

[Torric270]

I fiddle with Beacon objects in FMB and actually Radio Beacon and Long Range Antennas work.
Like search lights (now with infrared light...) hey need a generator and IA antiair object with script PowerOn.

But the only plane able to correctly track the signals is Br20.

I made a SP mission for CAI with this guindance system, the only thing I a not able to know
is when I reach the target area.

In ATAG the Br20 instrument pick signal form some antennas, ie near Tramecourt - for default antennas are setting at 300MHZ.

In Ju-88, He-111, Ju-87, Bf-110 the instrument (ANF1/2) is no able to fix in the signal.
The AFN-1/2 needle floats crazy when frequencys are tuned.

Lorenz Outer and Inner marks antennas are correctly detected by planes that fly above then.
But without ability of AFN-1/2 to track the signal, not usefull. Probable I lost some detail...

In Br20 the lights for Lorenz are in Navigator cockpit - is not practical pilot the plane and monitoring lights for this place...

In Bf-110 you are not able to select frequency, so pick only antennas with default signal (300MHZ).

Sokol1

88s & 111s can pick up non directional beacons in their magnetic compass. They have a needle P "to" & S "from".

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Sorry:( i no accusing people, i spanis boy and i use google traslator.

I have ju88 user manual 1941, ju88 1940 manual, and another manual of this plane.

you're rightI read it in 1941 pilot notes.

sorry me if you thought someone accused of lying:(:(:(

No problem Sandokito.

Here is something you might like for your collection, it is power curve for Jumo 211 at 1.35ata/2400rpm:

https://hotfile.com/dl/196328811/738fb03/Jumo_211_B-H_power_curves.pdf.html

[SG1_sandokito]

No problem Sandokito.

Here is something you might like for your collection, it is power curve for Jumo 211 at 1.35ata/2400rpm:

https://hotfile.com/dl/196328811/738fb03/Jumo_211_B-H_power_curves.pdf.html


Thx i very happy:thumbsup

[1lokos]

88s & 111s can pick up non directional beacons in their magnetic compass. They have a needle P "to" & S "from".

Torric, thank for this type. Someday I need learn about "autopilot" in german bombers. :)

About gunnners issues. Last night testing CloD after problems with MS Windows Updade, I run a QM dogfight between Spit and 110's, and notice that the gunner of one fire when his (IA) plane are in inverted position during a barrel roll... !!!?

Sokol1

[ZG15_robtek]

In a well flown barrel roll you can have constant positive g, no reason not to fire for the backseater, it's almost as in level flight.