destroy aircraft more quickly

[nacy]

Patch Team-Fusion destroy aircraft more quickly ?

in file (dmd)2213

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Im using this

2214

[1lokos]

If you shoot at convergence range one 1/2s burst of Hurri put a Do-17/He.111 engine on fire - Ju-88 engine falling of - so "soft" the things is not need. ;)

Sokol1

[ATAG_Colander]

Damage models and weapons reviews are not included in the first patch as the priority is the flight models.
TF will try improving them for the next release.

[nacy]

TF will try improving them for the next release.

OK.

Test (dmd) 2215

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A0ofKA495E&feature=youtu.be

[mazex]

Damage models and weapons reviews are not included in the first patch as the priority is the flight models.
TF will try improving them for the next release.

And improving means? ;) Even though many claim that it's all about shooting at convergence range I can not imagine that it took so much lead to bring a He 111 down... Or I'm just a bad shot :)

Most of us have read a number of pilot reports of bomber kills with some short bursts fired in less than ideal aiming situations... I can not imagine that they where fired at exactly the correct range dead in the center of an engine? We are talking 8 x mg:s fired from rather close range into a plane mostly composed of thin aluminum sheets with some steel spars...

I certainly don't want the "one shot one kill" from Birds of Prey - but a bit easier bomber kills would feel right for me at least without compromising the subjectively perceived "historical correctness" in the simulation... Or maybe add a configuration parameter where the aluminum sturdiness can be tweaked for offline flying at least for us that would like it?

And thanks for all the hard work! :)

[LizLemon]

OK.

Test (dmd) 2215

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A0ofKA495E&feature=youtu.be

These values look way to low. Are the planes one shot on kill?

And some of the spongers with 999 durability are just small visual details.


And improving means? ;) Even though many claim that it's all about shooting at convergence range I can not imagine that it took so much lead to bring a He 111 down... Or I'm just a bad shot :)

Most of us have read a number of pilot reports of bomber kills with some short bursts fired in less than ideal aiming situations... I can not imagine that they where fired at exactly the correct range dead in the center of an engine? We are talking 8 x mg:s fired from rather close range into a plane mostly composed of thin aluminum sheets with some steel spars...

I certainly don't want the "one shot one kill" from Birds of Prey - but a bit easier bomber kills would feel right for me at least without compromising the subjectively perceived "historical correctness" in the simulation... Or maybe add a configuration parameter where the aluminum sturdiness can be tweaked for offline flying at least for us that would like it?

And thanks for all the hard work! :)

I've read reports from ground crews that the 111 could absorb an amazing amount of damage. The problem was often times the crews would be all shot up. Getting pilot kills is the quickest was to bring down a bomber, so go for the cockpit and use AP rounds.

[III./ZG76_Keller]

And improving means? ;) Even though many claim that it's all about shooting at convergence range I can not imagine that it took so much lead to bring a He 111 down... Or I'm just a bad shot :)

Most of us have read a number of pilot reports of bomber kills with some short bursts fired in less than ideal aiming situations... I can not imagine that they where fired at exactly the correct range dead in the center of an engine? We are talking 8 x mg:s fired from rather close range into a plane mostly composed of thin aluminum sheets with some steel spars...

I certainly don't want the "one shot one kill" from Birds of Prey - but a bit easier bomber kills would feel right for me at least without compromising the subjectively perceived "historical correctness" in the simulation... Or maybe add a configuration parameter where the aluminum sturdiness can be tweaked for offline flying at least for us that would like it?

And thanks for all the hard work! :)

Granted this section of the video is of a Bf-110 attacking a B-17, but you can see just how many rounds the B-17 soaks up. Even when the footage ends the B-17 isn't smoking or burning profusely, and still appears to be in somewhat ok condition. I'm sure the crew, the controls and the fluid systems are probably in very rough shape though.

Since the most commonly used round of the RAF was the .303 Ball (copper jacketed lead) it's penetrating power was quite low and thus could hit solid metal objects like engine blocks and armored plates and do almost no damage whatsoever. Without concentrated fire on critical systems all you're doing to an airplane with ball ammo is putting holes in the planes skin. Hitting the plane's water or oil system is your best bet for "eventually" forcing a plane to land or a pilot/crew to ditch. Similarly, disabling controls like elevators or ailerons will usually force a pilot/crew to ditch the plane instead of attempting a landing.

Skip to 1:55


http://youtu.be/z6_NLhqjvBI?t=1m55s

[ATAG_Snapper]

That footage is spellbinding for me. Despite the grainy, pixelated, B&W quality of it, you realize those are live human beings going through hell and not just a video game which we enjoy playing. Thanks for sharing that. :thumbsup:

[Gromit]

.303 ball will crack or hole an alloy engine block or cylinder head, those castings are quite brittle which is why the air forces put armour plate behind the engines!

one thing does concern me in the current sim is it seems waaay to easy to sink a ship, even 50lb bombs apparently sink them?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Granted this section of the video is of a Bf-110 attacking a B-17, but you can see just how many rounds the B-17 soaks up. Even when the footage ends the B-17 isn't smoking or burning profusely, and still appears to be in somewhat ok condition. I'm sure the crew, the controls and the fluid systems are probably in very rough shape though.

Since the most commonly used round of the RAF was the .303 Ball (copper jacketed lead) it's penetrating power was quite low and thus could hit solid metal objects like engine blocks and armored plates and do almost no damage whatsoever. Without concentrated fire on critical systems all you're doing to an airplane with ball ammo is putting holes in the planes skin. Hitting the plane's water or oil system is your best bet for "eventually" forcing a plane to land or a pilot/crew to ditch. Similarly, disabling controls like elevators or ailerons will usually force a pilot/crew to ditch the plane instead of attempting a landing.

Skip to 1:55


http://youtu.be/z6_NLhqjvBI?t=1m55s

Some of these rounds are 30mm too.

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Some of these rounds are 30mm too.


Yeah you're right, they would be; and it looks like several of them hit the belly gunner directly.

It's hard to tell the position of the belly gunner's guns, but certainly by the end of the clip he is no longer... well... actively engaged.

[III./ZG76_Keller]

.303 ball will crack or hole an alloy engine block or cylinder head, those castings are quite brittle which is why the air forces put armour plate behind the engines!

one thing does concern me in the current sim is it seems waaay to easy to sink a ship, even 50lb bombs apparently sink them?

The 50's are hit and miss, some guys have just gotten good at dropping them right on the deck.

They're 50kg bombs though, that's 110 lbs.

[Gromit]

Still 110lb is not enough to sink a freighter, take a look how many shots U-Boats had to take with thier deck guns!

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Still 110lb is not enough to sink a freighter, take a look how many shots U-Boats had to take with thier deck guns!

How can you prove this though? What if the freighter is full of oil barrels, fuel barrels or cordite? :thumbsup:

[mazex]

Granted this section of the video is of a Bf-110 attacking a B-17, but you can see just how many rounds the B-17 soaks up. Even when the footage ends the B-17 isn't smoking or burning profusely, and still appears to be in somewhat ok condition. I'm sure the crew, the controls and the fluid systems are probably in very rough shape though.

Since the most commonly used round of the RAF was the .303 Ball (copper jacketed lead) it's penetrating power was quite low and thus could hit solid metal objects like engine blocks and armored plates and do almost no damage whatsoever. Without concentrated fire on critical systems all you're doing to an airplane with ball ammo is putting holes in the planes skin. Hitting the plane's water or oil system is your best bet for "eventually" forcing a plane to land or a pilot/crew to ditch. Similarly, disabling controls like elevators or ailerons will usually force a pilot/crew to ditch the plane instead of attempting a landing.

Skip to 1:55


Mmm, I've seen that clip many times (especially the 110 attack)... Like Snapper says - it's one of the few gun cam clips where you really feel a chill going into the bone as he sprays that poor B-17...

And sure - he's got at least two 20 mm cannons and a bunch of rifle caliber mg:s, but a lot of the rounds miss the target, which I guess went down after that attack even though there was no "fatal breakdown" in the clip... I guess a large part of the crew got hit in that massive fuselage spray, and the inner starboard engine and both the port engines got a lot of hits too. And the gear is seen dropping just as he passes so hydraulics are probably not in a good shape either.

This is a slow motion so it's really just a fast pass - when I line up behind a He 111 and spray all my ammo with almost every round on the target he can still chug on with just the rear gunner dead and some radiator leaks... But OK, that is from dead behind which is not a good tactic, and probably a bit out of convergence when it happens. Have tried a lot of ammo mixes with a lean on De Wilde but I guess that AP mix to get the crew as LizLemon says is maybe the best way. A frontal spray into the glass house...

Anyway - it may be true that .303:s where that ineffective against the bombers and I can respect that many like it as it is. An offline configuration option for us that have a desire for just a bit more punch in the Brownings would be appreciated anyway - even though it's naturally not on top of the list :)

[III./ZG76_Keller]

This video shows the detonation of 15kg of TNT; there was 24kg of TNT inside a SC50 bomb.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnKDVDycHjs


http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sc50bi.html


This video doesn't say if the TNT was contained within a structure though, the blast effects would likely be greater when the TNT is contained, and there would obviously be shrapnel added into the mix. I don't know that I'd chance being on a ship when a 50kg bomb goes off.

Also, would a 55.5kg projectile falling at 300 - 500 km/h have enough force to penetrate the deck of a cargo ship causing it to detonate inside of a lower deck or bulkhead?

[Skoshi_Tiger]

.303 ball will crack or hole an alloy engine block or cylinder head, those castings are quite brittle which is why the air forces put armour plate behind the engines!

one thing does concern me in the current sim is it seems waaay to easy to sink a ship, even 50lb bombs apparently sink them?

At close to 90 degrees the MK-VII .303 will punch through a plough disk (5mm of quite hard stuff), but at any sort of angle I'm not too sure.

Anyone one got a spare Merlin engine block sitting around for some testing?????? :)

[III./ZG76_Keller]

At close to 90 degrees the MK-VII .303 will punch through a plough disk (5mm of quite hard stuff), but at any sort of angle I'm not too sure.

Anyone one got a spare Merlin engine block sitting around for some testing?????? :)

Are you sure you mean the Mk VII? The MkVII was the "hollow point" round.

I don't have a Merlin, but I do have a K98k and some 7.92 1941 dated S.m.K rounds that I could test. I also have some post-war equivalents to S.m.K.H.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Are you sure you mean the Mk VII? The MkVII was the "hollow point" round.




You may want to check your sources on that one Keller.

The MkVII Ball round is a copper jacketed round wth a lead base and aluminium insert in the tip (under the jacket)

Used from about 1910 to 1950 and quite well documented. (I've got a box in the safe I'll post some pix this arvo if you want)

Cartridge, Mk VII
Accepted 1910
Smokeless powder load. Boxer or Berdan primed. 174 gr pointed bullet.
Muzzle Velocity - 2440fps
(www.303british.com)

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/ammunition/303ammunition.jpg


http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/ammunition/303.htm

[III./ZG76_Keller]

That's why I put "Hollow Point" in quotes, the Mk VII was designed to be a FMJ that would also expand on impact; this was a sneaky way of getting around the International rules of war. Not all were aluminum tipped, some manufacturers used wood or paper; either way the dual composition of the bullets caused more expansion than a solid lead core would have.

I would be willing to bet that a solid lead core would have slightly better penetration values than the Mk VII.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

To tell you the truth, its always baffled me why CoD never modelled the VIII ball round that was specifically designed for use in machine guns (Boat tailed round and about 100fps faster). I would have assumed that it would have been available, though on searching I can only find reference to it being used in the Vickers MGs. Not sure if its a solid round or has the insert cant find a cross section of one or even a discussion of the bullets makeup. Unless they were trying to match the velocities of the more exotic rounds for similar ballistics(???)

Even looking at RAF sources for load outs they rarely mention what Mark of ball ammunition theyre using, simply using the term Ball.



RE- MKVII

from http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/32360/20100306-0022/www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/303.html

This design firstly ensured that the bullet was long for its weight, which is not a bad thing at all for enhanced long range performance. Mainly, however, the bullets centre of gravity was now further to the rear, which caused it to be unstable on impact and prone to tumbling. This of course greatly increased its wounding potential, but never mind - it had a full metal jacket to keep the politicians happy! Hypocritical, isnt it? Here was a bullet far more devastating than the original "dum dum", but which was now acceptable because it didnt actually expand - it just tumbled through like a buzz-saw! Thats politics for you. Are you surprised? No, I didnt think you would be.

I can certainly attest to the effectiveness of this design, having seen first-hand the effects of .303 rifles during post mortems. Typically it breaks into bits, and the sight of the aluminium tip on an X-ray is always a sure sign that you are dealing with a .303. Interestingly enough, the tip is not always of aluminium.

[Catseye]

Have tried a lot of ammo mixes with a lean on De Wilde but I guess that AP mix to get the crew as LizLemon says is maybe the best way. A frontal spray into the glass house...



Hi Mazex:
For some time now, it's been noted that the DeWilde ammunition is broken and is not working as it should be. Do not even load it. The most effective ammo loadout at this time is: White Tracer, Ball then AP in that order.

My suggestion - create a loadout of only and completely White Tracer and then see what happens with the HE-111.

Cheers,
Cats . . .

[Catseye]

To tell you the truth, its always baffled me why CoD never modelled the VIII ball round that was specifically designed for use in machine guns (Boat tailed round and about 100fps faster). I would have assumed that it would have been available, though on searching I can only find reference to it being used in the Vickers MGs. Not sure if its a solid round or has the insert cant find a cross section of one or even a discussion of the bullets makeup. Unless they were trying to match the velocities of the more exotic rounds for similar ballistics(???)

Even looking at RAF sources for load outs they rarely mention what Mark of ball ammunition theyre using, simply using the term Ball.

Hi Skoshi,
We have the information and all rounds are being evaluated getting ready for adjustments in the next release.
Cheers.

[Dutch]

For some time now, it's been noted that the DeWilde ammunition is broken and is not working as it should be. Do not even load it.

Found this statement on doing a search for loadout recommendations. Can anyone tell me if the problem with DeWilde ammo mentioned by Catseye is still the case?

I ask because my custom loadout in all a/c is 50% DeWilde.................

[Catseye]

Found this statement on doing a search for loadout recommendations. Can anyone tell me if the problem with DeWilde ammo mentioned by Catseye is still the case?

I ask because my custom loadout in all a/c is 50% DeWilde.................

check pm

S!

[Katdog5]

Found this statement on doing a search for loadout recommendations. Can anyone tell me if the problem with DeWilde ammo mentioned by Catseye is still the case?

I ask because my custom loadout in all a/c is 50% DeWilde.................

Mine too. Blarg

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Found this statement on doing a search for loadout recommendations. Can anyone tell me if the problem with DeWilde ammo mentioned by Catseye is still the case?

I ask because my custom loadout in all a/c is 50% DeWilde.................

Dutch an others, Macro myself an many others use 50/50 ap an dw , An Macro don't even use any tracers , an 90% of his kills the plane is set on fire , I get more pk's , an so do many others that do not use the white tracer, BUT my kills did not go up trying them out for a month , in fact it went up going back to where I started dewilde an AP, IF the ammo is off , it is not by much, It is still down to converg, , an where you hit them, fires an killing is not down to the bullets ,but the pilots aim, some would have you believe that the dewilde is brokin, till it hits like a 109 cannon round, an puts a hole that very much looks like a cannon round! , But I did find that adding some ball no. 7 might have a little more punch. But i'm sure i'll be corrected by the end of the day, to tell me how wrong I am. :recon:

[Dutch]

Thanks JT, I'm gonna experiment with a few different options in different a/c, but all with same convergence settings. If I get any meaningful results or impressions, I'll let you know. :thumbsup:

I suppose the easiest test is to load 100% DeWilde and see what happens..............(but I think I'll do that offline, haha!)

[Catseye]

Dutch an others, Macro myself an many others use 50/50 ap an dw , An Macro don't even use any tracers , an 90% of his kills the plane is set on fire , I get more pk's , an so do many others that do not use the white tracer, BUT my kills did not go up trying them out for a month , in fact it went up going back to where I started dewilde an AP, IF the ammo is off , it is not by much, It is still down to converg, , an where you hit them, fires an killing is not down to the bullets ,but the pilots aim, some would have you believe that the dewilde is brokin, till it hits like a 109 cannon round, an puts a hole that very much looks like a cannon round! , But I did find that adding some ball no. 7 might have a little more punch. But i'm sure i'll be corrected by the end of the day, to tell me how wrong I am. :recon:

Hi Dawg,
Read my lips . . . . the DeWilde is broken!!

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Hi Dawg,
Read my lips . . . . the DeWilde is broken!!

PICK A FINGER !!!! :thumbsup:

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

How can you prove this though? What if the freighter is full of oil barrels, fuel barrels or cordite? :thumbsup:

or vodka or rye.

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi.

In response to the disscusion of .303" MKVII Ball Penertration on pg1 of this Thread.

.303" MKVII Ball (Cordite loading) and MKVIIz Ball (Nitro Cellulose loading), was indeed using a composite core (Lead/antimony core with an aluminium tip) but not for the purpose of Expansion but for ballistic performance, in the same way as many modern types of Target Ammunition use a "Ballistic Tip" (small plastic tip,usually external) Removing weight from the nose portion of the projectile (ie replacing lead with plastic,aluminium,fiber etc) in basic terms means that the bulk of the weight is in the base and around the outside diameter of the projectile, and this gives improved stability in air and better long range performance.

During World War 1 in an attempt to conserve Aluminium supplies alternative materials were trialled for tips, and a Fiber material (like compressed paper) was officially approved, performance was relatively unaffected in terms of range, penertration and accuracy. In WW2 a plastic bakerlite type material was used. The tips are inside the outer jacket or bullet envelope so can only be seen if you carefully pull a bullet and section it.

.303" MKIII, MKIV and MKV ball rounds were designed as "Hollow points" or Expanding Bullets, to open up on impact and give good knock down/stopping power and very effective wound ballistics especially in Colonial conflicts, when compared to the 215 grain round nose MKI and MKII.
However these Expanding projectiles were outlawed by international convention not long after adoption, so not many were produced and most of what was made was fired off in practice at targets (due to being illegal for use in warfare)

.303" MKVI ball reverted back to the old type 215 grain round nose bullet design.

.303" MKVII ball was the new high velocity cartridge, firing a 174 grain (pointed) projectile at 2440 fps. Long range performance was good as to was penertration, The projectile was very stable in air but rapidly de-stabilized in Flesh causing the projectile to tumble end over end through the body giving what was considered to be very effective wound ballistics and excellent stopping power, but because it was not designed to expand or cause unnessasary suffering it wasn't illegal to be used in warfare.

Official tests proved the penertration to be more than adequate giving good results against brickwork, sandbags, earth loose and packed, turf and thick wooden boards that had been soaked in water (to prevent boards splitting)
I have these results in a military hand book that i will dig out and post if it would be useful.

I have personally fired .303"MKVII ball RL 1945 headstamp through an SMLE (ok not a Browning aircraft gun) at 5/16"-3/8" thick hot rolled (black) mild steel plate (not armour plate) at 110 Yards (100m) and it made some impressive holes right through, but very probably only small fragments exited the other side as there was a lot of the bullet lead and copper lining the holes. Will try to find the plate and take a photo if possible and if needed. The shots were fired to strike the plates at a 90 degree angle so was the optimum for penertration.

The above is from memory, but i will pull out the relavant books when i get home and edit this post if i made an error anywere. Sorry for spelling lol.

Big Thank you to Team Fusion for all your hard work, it's appreciated very much.


Regards Hub S!!

[ATAG_Snapper]

Wow, that is great information, Hub! Thank you! :thumbsup:

Recently I resurrected a sporterized No 1 MK 4 SMLE and have been running some hand loads through it. I swapped out the Williams peep sight for a Nikon Prostaff 3 x 9 scope. My gunsmith dug up a side-mounted scope mount to hold it, and this old 1943 Lee Enfield is proving to be a real tack driver at its 100 meter sight-in. The military trigger is creepy as all get out, but I have a Huber Concepts match trigger on order.

I'm not reproducing the 174 gr Ball VII per your post, but it's a fascinating read nonetheless. :D

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Snapper, do you mean an No4 Mk1?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Snapper, do you mean an No4 Mk1?


Yep. That's the last time I dictate my posts to Yoda! :D