Bug or does my ability to fly a SpitfireMK1 100oct suck?

[Major Tom]

After patching I can't seem to fly the 100oct spitmk1. The engine wants to constantly over rev in high prop but there are only 2 prop settings high and low cruise. In low prop the plane won't perform in a fight but in high I have to not push the throttle past halfway or the engine over revs or my oil temps go right through the roof. Can anyone help me or tell me it needs a fix?

[Dutch]

Sounds about right to me old chum. Only using fine pitch for take-off and landing is how it should be in the main, unless the geniuses at TF have put in the 'sweet spot' favoured by many good BoB pilots.

That lack of versatility is what made them change to CSPs in the real world. However it does make you think a lot more about energy fighting, which makes it a fun challenge! :thumbsup:

[Major Tom]

Sounds about right to me old chum. Only using fine pitch for take-off and landing is how it should be in the main, unless the geniuses at TF have put in the 'sweet spot' favoured by many good BoB pilots.

That lack of versatility is what made them change to CSPs in the real world. However it does make you think a lot more about energy fighting, which makes it a fun challenge! :thumbsup:

Ok, thanks. Just wanted to make sure. So in other words I am really gonna have to watch those gauges in a fight. Just checked and it looks like I'll be doing the same with the plain Spit mk1 as well

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Ok, thanks. Just wanted to make sure. So in other words I am really gonna have to watch those gauges in a fight. Just checked and it looks like I'll be doing the same with the plain Spit mk1 as well

Hello Major Tom

Please have a look at the Flight Manuals on our Wiki page, you will find one for the Spit I and Spit I 100 octane.

http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=start

You may find it easier to start with the Spitfire IA 100 octane or the Spitfire IIA rather than the Spit I's.

The Spit I models are considerably harder to fly successfully.

There is however, a historical technique Prop pitch technique listed in the manual which can allow you to get max. performance out of your Spit I aircraft.

[Major Tom]

Hello Major Tom

Please have a look at the Flight Manuals on our Wiki page, you will find one for the Spit I and Spit I 100 octane.

http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=start

Didn't even know those were there. Awesome! Thanks!

[FAE_Cazador]

Major, you've explained exactly what was happening to me! I was flying a Spit MkI in the Disastersoft's "Wick vs Dundas" 609 Sq. Campaign when TF patch was released and installed by me. I had several successful missions with the unpatched Sim. Then I continued with the Campaign. And, oh my God!, now I am stuck in the first mission flying the Patch!. It is a 10.000 ft Interception Mission over Wright Island. Take off and cruise flight were OK, but when starting the dogfight over Cowes, I always burn up the motor (cooling system, cooling pump, or something...), either landing at the nearest base or crash landing (fortunately) with the engine making an horrendous noise!.

Then I noticed the Wiki Manuals website, downloaded Spit MkI Manual and....voila. MkI has to be flown completely different from the previous version of the Sim. Take all note of this, if you fly "609 Sq. Campaign".

So, if it was the case in Real Life there in 1940, really TF has mode an awesome work of historical research and tuning up the planes accordingly. :thumbsup:

Cheers!

[skouras]

in reality there was a two positions on the lever[also the lever had a total movement]
coarse and fine [a fixed pitch propeller,nose down the rpm increases nose up the rpm decreases]
however the british pilots used the lever as a variable pitch tune it a little forward or backward to maintain the rpm that they wish ---something we don't have
what i would like to see is something like this

watch at 10.50 very close

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psYL7thQj6M


please excuse me if im wrong..

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

in reality there was a two positions on the lever[also the lever had a total movement]
coarse and fine [a fixed pitch propeller,nose down the rpm increases nose up the rpm decreases]
however the british pilots used the lever as a variable pitch tune it a little forward or backward to maintain the rpm that they wish ---something we don't have
what i would like to see is something like this

watch at 10.50 very close

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psYL7thQj6M


please excuse me if im wrong..

We do have the ability to mimic what the British did, the Two pitch Spitfires did not have proper variable speed prop like the 109's, they could only select two positions with their lever, but the pilots developed a workaround, by switching back and forth, they could keep the rpms up were they wanted them.... as you can do in this game.

If the Spitfire two pitches planes had a real variable speed prop, we could have easily simulated that, but they didn't and we didn't.

[skouras]

so you saying the the lever could not be set in a position between coarse and fine
if that was as it was in reality then its fine with me:salute:

[Uwe]

As a new red pilot it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, you just switch back and forth between coarse and fine continually to keep it at an intermediate pitch?
So set throttle and then start switching back, and forth and back and forth...wash rinse repeat.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

As a new red pilot it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, you just switch back and forth between coarse and fine continually to keep it at an intermediate pitch?
So set throttle and then start switching back, and forth and back and forth...wash rinse repeat.

Normally you just fly in Coarse pitch, but when your rpms are low and you are in a situation which demands optimum power, then try this technique.

It is not a perfect solution, the RAF switched to Constant speed props because the performance was better, this was just a technique used to improve the existing mechanism.

And you don't use this technique at certain altitudes where your rpms are good anyway.

Read the manual on the Wiki page.

http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=start

[ATAG_Snapper]

We do have the ability to mimic what the British did, the Two pitch Spitfires did not have proper variable speed prop like the 109's, they could only select two positions with their lever, but the pilots developed a workaround, by switching back and forth, they could keep the rpms up were they wanted them.... as you can do in this game.

If the Spitfire two pitches planes had a real variable speed prop, we could have easily simulated that, but they didn't and we didn't.

At 11:25 the A2A video is describing something very different. As A2A describes it, RAF pilots actually moved the "bicycle pump" pitch control to an intermediate position and used it as a true variable (but not 'constant') pitch control. Accordingly, this is modelled into the A2A sim. I imagine the Rolls Royce engineers would have had nightmares of blown engines in the hands of an unwary RAF pilot. I have the sim and found that it's actually quite easy to maintain a desired rpm by ear alone -- and one hand constantly on the prop pitch control. It's also easy to blow a Merlin if you're unwary! :D

It's possible -- even likely -- that A2A are incorrect in their research. They are just another sim company and hardly the Final Authority. Their constant speed Spitfire 2a literally throws itself into the air on its take off run, while the Clod Spitfire 2a takes a significantly longer take off run similar to A2A's depiction of the fixed pitch MK 1 in the video.

TBH I like both sims. A2A's Spits has all the working bits, including oxygen, etc. I love A2A's external sounds, but Clod's internal cockpit sound beats it by a mile. The Clod cockpit has the essential bits that work for an air combat sim -- no unnecessary fussing with stuff. The "feeling of flight" in Clod is unsurpassed IMHO, the A2A Spit just feels "OK" to me, but nothing special.

And the Clod Spitfire has GUNS. With BULLETS!!! :thumbsup:

Vive la difference!

:)

[skouras]

the A2A have done a great research to Recreate those planes
and i believe that is very close to the real ones as much as FSX engine allows it

[ATAG_Snapper]

We do have the ability to mimic what the British did, the Two pitch Spitfires did not have proper variable speed prop like the 109's, they could only select two positions with their lever, but the pilots developed a workaround, by switching back and forth, they could keep the rpms up were they wanted them.... as you can do in this game.

If the Spitfire two pitches planes had a real variable speed prop, we could have easily simulated that, but they didn't and we didn't.


Did both A2A and the Spitfireperformance.com get it wrong? This is very different to how the 2-speed Spitfire Mark 1 is modelled in Clod:


According to the Spitfire I Pilots Notes (A.P.1565A)

(note: red highlight is mine to emphasize the point in question.)

Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html


Airscrew control.- This aeroplane may be fitted with one of the following airscrew controls: (a) de Havilland two position (b) de Havilland constant speed, or (c) Rotol (35°) constant speed. If constant speed control is fitted the r.p.m. can be adjusted to remain as desired, but within the limits allowed by the airscrew pitch range. If the two position control is fitted on this aeroplane it can also be operated to give various airscrew pitch settings between fine and coarse; this is obtained by slowly moving the control between its range of movement until the desired r.p.m. are obtained. For example, if a full power climb is required, instead of pushing the control into fully coarse pitch as the r.p.m. rise after taking-off, the control should be moved slowly forward until the r.p.m. drop to the maximum permissible for climb (2,600) and then pulled slightly back; this will leave the airscrew pitch at the position which gives these r.p.m. until power begins to drop off with altitude. As the power drops off the r.p.m. can be maintained by again fining the airscrew pitch as required. This in effect will give a similar improvement in performance to that obtained by means of a constant speed airscrew. The operation of varying the airscrew pitch in this manner to suit different conditions of flight will be found quite simple after a little experiment. 20k

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Did both A2A and the Spitfireperformance.com get it wrong? This is very different to how the 2-speed Spitfire Mark 1 is modelled in Clod:


According to the Spitfire I Pilots Notes (A.P.1565A)

(note: red highlight is mine to emphasize the point in question.)

Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html


Airscrew control.- This aeroplane may be fitted with one of the following airscrew controls: (a) de Havilland two position (b) de Havilland constant speed, or (c) Rotol (35°) constant speed. If constant speed control is fitted the r.p.m. can be adjusted to remain as desired, but within the limits allowed by the airscrew pitch range. If the two position control is fitted on this aeroplane it can also be operated to give various airscrew pitch settings between fine and coarse; this is obtained by slowly moving the control between its range of movement until the desired r.p.m. are obtained. For example, if a full power climb is required, instead of pushing the control into fully coarse pitch as the r.p.m. rise after taking-off, the control should be moved slowly forward until the r.p.m. drop to the maximum permissible for climb (2,600) and then pulled slightly back; this will leave the airscrew pitch at the position which gives these r.p.m. until power begins to drop off with altitude. As the power drops off the r.p.m. can be maintained by again fining the airscrew pitch as required. This in effect will give a similar improvement in performance to that obtained by means of a constant speed airscrew. The operation of varying the airscrew pitch in this manner to suit different conditions of flight will be found quite simple after a little experiment. 20k

Thanks for that, obviously we were mistaken, we will look at doing changes.

One thing for certain, the system was not a true variable speed propellor, and these adjustements were using the propellor in a way different than originally intended, how we would implement this without giving the aircraft technical capabilities which it didn't have is a question.

There is also the issue that this plane did not have the thumb paddle on the joystick that the 109's, (which had a true variable speed system) had. Therefore adjusting this in combat would have been more difficult while controlling the aircraft in maneuver.

Incidentally, the 110 also did not have the paddle on the joystick, and tests suggesting adjusting pitch by means of the lever on the dashboard was very difficult and not conducive to combat maneuvering. We have however, given the 110's the same capabilities as the 109's, since to create a requirement to use the mouse to operate pitch would no doubt be unpopular and we will be doing this with the Two pitch types as well.

[ATAG_Colander]

Perhaps we could compromise and (if possible) give it a 3 positions pitch (coarse, medium, fine) ??

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Perhaps we could compromise and (if possible) give it a 3 positions pitch (coarse, medium, fine) ??

No, it seems clear you can stop the lever at any point in the spectrum of adjustment.

We will need to look at implementing this in the next minor patch.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Thanks to everyone for bringing this to our attention, we made a mistake in how we set this up... (so did 1C and the original developers and we should not have accepted to continue with their design simulating the prop without investigating more closely, but there were a lot of other issues which were higher on our priority list)

We will need to look at the Blenheim and other planes to determine if we need to make changes there too.

The changes are easy enough to implement, and should be available when we do an update in the next while.

We are happy to have feedback and suggested changes from those who have factual data. :salute:

[ATAG_Snapper]

Team Fusion rocks!!!! :salute:

[skouras]

thanks snapper for the research
what exactly i was talking about...

[Ivank]

Requires 3D mod to replace pitch lever with vernier plunger type device.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute All

Ok, have consulted with my compatriot in FM modelling and discovered he knew about this after all. But I hadn't been aware, since my investigations were of the Hurricane pitch lever and how it was managed. And the above quoted technique (by Snapper) only relates to the Spit I Pitch control.

The Hurricane had a different system, in which it was only capable of the two positions, with the pilot having the ability to switch back and forth between Coarse and Fine to give the little boost of acceleration as described in the existing manuals. But the Hurricane could not do the pitch adjustment technique described in the Spit manual. There was no way of stopping the lever in mid position.

The root of our problem is that 1C made the mistake of modelling a 3D graphic of a Hurricane style pitch control lever in the Spit I.

To compound their mistake, 1C then elected to give the Spit I the same two position functionality of the Hurricane as well. That's what we inherited.

The real Spit I Pitch control lever looks like the picture below: (pitch control is white knob)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/zulu64/DHspitlvr_zps71eb2064.jpg

To solve this problem, even though the Spit I has a 3D graphic of a Hurricane pitch control instead of the correct one, we will give it the variable function since the real aircraft had this. The Hurricane will have to stay as it is.

And some time down the road, we will hopefully have time to create a proper 3D model of the Spit I control knob.

Again, thanks to everyone for their contributions and patience.

Cheers Buzzsaw :salute:

[skouras]

no thank you for your attention:)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Fantastic follow up, Buzzsaw. :salute:

[E-69 Siegfried]

Sorry for my bad english. I'm spanish and my english is autolearned.

I remember various official patches ago, the blenhein had a two position pitch control that allowed to te pilot an tiny intermediated zone for "full range" pitch . If I remembered well this position were only 5% or less of the all range in my pitch axis. This position were next to the fine (maybe coarse, i can't remember well) axis position. This only worked when you used the two position pitch control with analog axis. It were dificult adjust in so tiny range, but it worked.

Perharps this were a manner for simulate that you say here but in other aircraft. I dont remember had use this in Spitfire or Hurricane. Neither if this works in real Blenheims.

Maybe the real system had a valve that in intermediate transition positition when not fully closed let pass some fluid. Like when you press the light switch in your bedroom in a equilibrated position and the lamp blips. This is a example, I dont know the real system.