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View Full Version : No more Bf109E4-n's v Spits2a's please



Salmo
Mar-24-2013, 06:19
OK, got home from working a 12 hour day & looking for a little relaxation. What do I find?

The same mission I've seen on the ATAG server for months now. A 'bomb the static ships' mission which thinly disguises what really happens in the battle, which is a pile of Bf109E4-N's play 1v1 dogfights with Spitfire2a's for 6 hrs. That's OK I thought, some players like 'best plane' v 'best plane' DF's so I'll wait for the battle to rotate.

Jumped over to the ATAG server2 to see what was on offer, only to find the same/similar mission running. Waited over an hour for the battle to rotate on server1 & what do I get? Same planeset, same spawn bases, pretty much the exact same scenario except it's a 'bomb the static planes at Ramsgate' mission. Lo-and-behold, 50% of players jump into their 109E4-N & Spit Mk2a's & it's off we go again. What a disappointment.

So I type <TL into chat & find there's 6 more hours of this. This in now officially getting boring!

BTW, this is not a call for my mission, it's a general plea for battles other than "bomb the static object, in clear blue skies, using the same planes, from the same bases type missions".

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Mar-24-2013, 08:58
Boring? We love it!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-24-2013, 09:57
@Salmo,

Yes, I would hope that, even with the existing mission set (that is, without even going to your mission necessarily) there could at least be new targets placed on different locations and different height/size/flight path bomber formations added.

This would not require much, if any new scripting right?

Could ATAG perhaps put a call out for community made missions, and put these on rotation on server two, so that it always had a different mission set to server 1, but folks joining would take the risk of not knowing if the mission was fully "working"?

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Mar-24-2013, 11:57
why only the eastern side of the channel is used by card? The west side (portsmouth, eastbourne, cherbourg, le havre) is a new territory to fly, or the canal stretch too far?

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-24-2013, 13:02
why only the eastern side of the channel is used by card? The west side (portsmouth, eastbourne, cherbourg, le havre) is a new territory to fly, or the canal stretch too far?

I think there is a worry that people will not like that mission and would leave (i.e. takes too long to get tot he fight), an the server would be empty.

But I would love to see a western channel mission. I don't mind the long trip over the water.

6./JG26_Warjunkie
Mar-26-2013, 12:58
I also

EG14_Marcast
Mar-26-2013, 13:12
I think there is a worry that people will not like that mission and would leave (i.e. takes too long to get tot he fight), an the server would be empty.

But I would love to see a western channel mission. I don't mind the long trip over the water.

The main problem is that Portsmouth is too far for Bf109 autonomy. And a group of bombers escorted only by Bf110 would be surely great fun for RAF pilots, much less for the Germans.

Little_D
Mar-26-2013, 17:41
The main problem is that Portsmouth is too far for Bf109 autonomy.

Hi marcastel,

how you come to this? wy JG2 escord in WWII bombers to southhampton, portsmouth, etc? from cherbourg and the other bases around there

regards

Little_D

EG14_Marcast
Mar-26-2013, 18:02
Hi marcastel,

how you come to this? wy JG2 escord in WWII bombers to southhampton, portsmouth, etc? from cherbourg and the other bases around there

regards

Little_D

I didn't say that they cannot get there; they can stay there only for a very short time, and in a dogfight isn't nice when you have to look to your fuel gauge. I made an offline mission bombing Southampton, it takes about 30 min. with a He111 from there to Cherbourg. Yesterday I made one with a 109 from Zutkerque to Folkestone, 10 min. circling around there and my tank was already 1/3 empty.

Dutch
Mar-26-2013, 18:06
Well, we all had to try out the new FMs I suppose. :D

But I do find myself in agreement with Salmo. Dogfight servers abound, and the scenario described can be performed on the stock dogfight maps such as 'cross and roundel'.

In my opinion, a full real server using the Channel Map should be working towards actual 'Battle of Britain' scenarios. I emphasize 'working towards'. For instance, if the ratio of Spits to Hurris was enforced at roughly 33%/66%, as mooted in another recent discussion, then the RAF should have reasonably efficient radar detection and instruction from the ground, whereas the Luftwaffe should not. Also the RAF should have radios to talk to eachother and the ground, whereas the Luftwaffe should not in all cases. For instance, early in the Battle, German Bomber groups could not talk to German fighter groups and vice-versa. I don't think we'd be able to enforce that over TS though...:D

Maybe we should all sit back and ask what we want from the game. Do you favour 're-enactment'? Or do you want to simply shoot down a lot of planes in the shortest possible time?
If 109s couldn't escort the Bomber gruppen attacking Portsmouth and Southampton in historical reality, should we restrict our gameplay to those regions where the 109s do have the range, or should we say 'Well, that's how it was, live with it'?
Maybe at the very least, a bombing objective for the LW should be deliberately placed outside the range of the 109s, thus making it impossible for Blue to win the map without having some bombers destroy a target outside the range of the 109 escorts.

It's always going to be a compomise, or a happy medium, between historical re-enactment and an entertaining pastime on your computer. Consequently everyone's idea of where the compromise should lie will always be a 'bone of contention'.

But I also seem to recall that some new missions will be in the pipeline once everyone has had a bit of a blast in the 'newest and fastest' so brilliantly modelled in the TF patch, so maybe these things are coming. Bring it on, I say. :thumbsup:

:)

EG14_Marcast
Mar-27-2013, 04:48
There also something else: if you fly a fighter, you can just jump into the server and take off. If you want to fly a bomber you need more organization, as it's nonsense to make a bombing raid alone, you are just deadmeat. You have to gather every time some friends and to plan the mission, it's much more difficult.
Regarding historical comparison and lack of escort, we must remember that the Luftwaffe raids over England were made by hundreds of aircrafts at a time. To meet such formations, even without escort, was a tough match for every fighter squadron, and a single bomber had an acceptable chance to go back home. I'm very new to online gaming, but the bigger (maybe) human bomber formation that I've seen in these days was made of 6 bombers, soon slaughtered by a swarm of fighters.

SG1_sandokito
Apr-25-2013, 14:26
hi we normally fly al German bombers 4 or 6 pilot , and every night send message for the chat requesting escort.Normally 4 pilots help we. This missions are very beautiful, but normally we have problem to render target on bombsight at 5500m. I know that many pilots no use level bombing planes because they encountered same problem.
In our squad we use NBD antenna near target, and this help we to localise the target.

I have created alot of different target, train station, aerodrome whit fabric, ship port, industrial area....., and use this to practise level bombing.

If Atag mission creator need, I can prepare a map with my targets, and send to complete the home base and planes.
here some targets

2706
2707
2708
2710
2709

Roblex
May-02-2013, 15:18
...and how about encouraging bombers by not setting targets up so that a single 109 can do them? In most maps there is no point going to all the trouble of taking a slow vulnerable bomber to England and back when you can take down the target with a single 109 then go dogfighting.

A few days ago on the newest map my squad decided to be historical and take 4 Hurricanes to fly a CAP over Redhill but before we even got there a 109 had nipped across and taken down the target all on his own and was heading home faster than we could chase. You don't even always need a fighter/bomber, we have Wellingtons carefully lined up in rows for heaven sake to make it easier for a fighter to get them all in a single pass! Has nobody heard the word 'dispersal'? Of course we want targets that fighter-bombers can be used on but we should not be seeing maps turned over by nothing but 109s, we need primary targets that take several medium bombers to destroy them or maybe just a bombers range. I know most people wont want to do a long dangerous flight in a bomber but if that is what it takes to finish the map then eventually someone will volunteer to fly it and others will volunteer to sweep the route or meet him as he returns.

Gromit
May-02-2013, 15:41
It's a very good point, aircraft were dispersed around an airfield or in E pens, not lined up like a parade, and whilst on the subject, what's this nonsense of ships being sunk by 50kg bombs? take a look at the pasting the Ohio took on it's way to Malta, your going to need a heck of a bigger bomb to sink a freighter than 50kg, no one ever heard of damage control?

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
May-07-2013, 11:54
It's a very good point, aircraft were dispersed around an airfield or in E pens, not lined up like a parade, and whilst on the subject, what's this nonsense of ships being sunk by 50kg bombs? take a look at the pasting the Ohio took on it's way to Malta, your going to need a heck of a bigger bomb to sink a freighter than 50kg, no one ever heard of damage control?

This^, while we're on the subject of missions.

Talisman
May-08-2013, 10:55
hi we normally fly al German bombers 4 or 6 pilot , and every night send message for the chat requesting escort.Normally 4 pilots help we. This missions are very beautiful, but normally we have problem to render target on bombsight at 5500m. I know that many pilots no use level bombing planes because they encountered same problem.
In our squad we use NBD antenna near target, and this help we to localise the target.

I have created alot of different target, train station, aerodrome whit fabric, ship port, industrial area....., and use this to practise level bombing.

If Atag mission creator need, I can prepare a map with my targets, and send to complete the home base and planes.
here some targets

2706
2707
2708
2710
2709

Thanks Sandokito. Some things appear to be a little too closely packed together than perhaps they would be in real life, but I like the railway yard and factory complex idea. Not sure about flying boats on a Spitfire airfield!

CanvasKnight
May-08-2013, 15:42
Well, I think that a western channel mission would certainly be viable. If your Bf-109 is running low on fuel from a trip over from the Pas de Calais and you are taking 100% fuel then there is something wrong with your fuel efficiency (probably flying with Revs and manifold pressure too high). If you fly at cruise settings instead of max power the Bf-109E, both in real life and in the game, can fly for 1 hour 30 minutes no problem, and still have enough left for 1-2 quick dogfights at full power. So it is certainly viable to have missions in the wider sections of the channel with the Bf-109, and there is historical precedent for it since there were many Bf-109 Gruppes stationed in the Normandy/Cherbourg area such as units from JG2, JG27, and JG53. Some JG 53 bases were even in the Channel Islands off the west coast of Cherbourg on the island of Guernsey. The entire coastline available to us in the game was heavily involved in the Battle of Britain. It's understandable that people get bored with the long flight times though. The only thing limiting us from doing it is probably the attention span of the players, and not the fuel economy of the fighters.

Dutch
May-08-2013, 20:09
The only thing limiting us from doing it is probably the attention span of the players, and not the fuel economy of the fighters.

:thumbsup:

Spot on mate. Although I don't hear you mention bombers. The map available is huge. That's Huge. The only reason we don't have missions covering the map is because the whole thing would feel more like FSX. You'd take off from your bomber base in Normandy, fly over the Channel for an hour or two with nothing happening, admiring the realism of the rendering of the water, then when you finally got to your target, you'd be shot down by AAA. What a bummer.

I'm the first person in line to say 'I wish it was different', and that everyone should try to fly missions which actually replicated situations during the Battle, with realistic timescales for both aggressors and defenders. But I don't believe anyone has the patience. Or as you say, the attention span. Shame really.

Roblex
May-09-2013, 02:50
Perhaps if everyone had to fly from Tangmere to Normandy or vice versa then they would be a little less likely to make suicide attacks or otherwise fly stupidly.

:bricks:

Gromit
May-11-2013, 09:14
Change the stats so any pilot that doesn't land his kills is credited with half a kill each?

Hoots
May-11-2013, 12:13
Change the stats so any pilot that doesn't land his kills is credited with half a kill each?

This. You should only get credit if you land your kill. It won't stop those who don't care but it may make people think twice before taking that suicide second run. Don't let the fact that I fly blenheims make you think that I want people to think twice before they shoot me down..... :)

ATAG_Snapper
May-11-2013, 13:02
This. You should only get credit if you land your kill. It won't stop those who don't care but it may make people think twice before taking that suicide second run. Don't let the fact that I fly blenheims make you think that I want people to think twice before they shoot me down..... :)

+1 ^^^

Welcome to the forum, Hoots! :D

Hoots
May-12-2013, 08:14
+1 ^^^

Welcome to the forum, Hoots! :D

Thanks snapper, been lurking for a while :)

Roblex
May-12-2013, 15:03
Perhaps if everyone had to fly from Tangmere to Normandy or vice versa then they would be a little less likely to make suicide attacks or otherwise fly stupidly.

:bricks:

It *would* be interesting to see how a long flight to target affects player behavior. If you combined it with regular large AI bomber formations (with AI escort?) that are targeting the mission targets I wonder if players would co-ordinate more and fly together for safety with the bombers instead of singly. The problem might be not making the flight so long that the 109s cannot stay with the bombers. Human Blue bombers would still have the option of sneaking a JU88 or two in at low level but take the bombs away from the 109s so their best option for action is to team up and escort the high bombers to engage the Red fighters that are going after the bombers that could close the map.