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Kling
Mar-26-2013, 18:43
Well they all do... ;)

Dutch
Mar-26-2013, 19:00
Eh?

Just checked a Rotol Hurri and a Spit I, and sure enough if I'm heading South, North is behind me.....:alcohol:

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-26-2013, 19:44
Ah, that explains why I was headed for Calais but ended up in Wales. :P

Good catch, Kling! :thumbsup:

DD_Fenrir
Mar-26-2013, 19:55
Well they all do... ;)

Hmmmm... depends on what you mean by compass.

Do you mean the compass (mounted in front of the stick between pilots legs) or the Direction Indicator (dasboard mounted below Artificial Horizon)?

You realise you must manually adjust the compass bezel to line up with the compass rose due North and then translate your estimated heading to your DI manually before you take off? And that the DI will handily start precessing given the slightest accelerations, so that after a dogfight it'll be set to any heading under the sun, right?

The compass will be swinging around wildly after even moderate manouevres, so you will have to take an arbitrary heading (preferably somewhere in the direction of home!) fly straight and level for a while till it settles than reset bezel and the DI again.... hoping some eagle eyed 109 driver isn't setting up to pour Minengeschoss into your distracted ass whilst you do so!

Ain't realistic navigating fun....!

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-26-2013, 20:13
So, you've checked the compass yourself post-TF patch and found them correct?

bolox
Mar-26-2013, 20:28
http://www.cixvfrclub.org.uk/downloads/DLFiles/miscellaneous/The%20P4%20Compass.pdf

might help with how the P type compass works?
To me the compass works as it should, you just have to learn how to read it, the centre 'spider' always points North (when in level flight)- the cross part with the T crossing it points North always- just like 'boy scout' compass. The outer bezel may seem to be 'the wrong way round as it is used for course setting- set the desired heading on the bezel to be pointing forwards and turn the plane until the T is pointing to the red North marker and you should be flying in the desired direction

Dutch
Mar-26-2013, 21:42
Strewth.

Reminds me of debates a couple of years ago. Like for some reason, we're all starting again...........

Good Stuff!!

:)

Kling
Mar-26-2013, 23:44
Eh?

Just checked a Rotol Hurri and a Spit I, and sure enough if I'm heading South, North is behind me.....:alcohol:

Lol!!roflmao

Kling
Mar-26-2013, 23:50
Hmmmm... depends on what you mean by compass.

Do you mean the compass (mounted in front of the stick between pilots legs) or the Direction Indicator (dasboard mounted below Artificial Horizon)?

You realise you must manually adjust the compass bezel to line up with the compass rose due North and then translate your estimated heading to your DI manually before you take off? And that the DI will handily start precessing given the slightest accelerations, so that after a dogfight it'll be set to any heading under the sun, right?

The compass will be swinging around wildly after even moderate manouevres, so you will have to take an arbitrary heading (preferably somewhere in the direction of home!) fly straight and level for a while till it settles than reset bezel and the DI again.... hoping some eagle eyed 109 driver isn't setting up to pour Minengeschoss into your distracted ass whilst you do so!

Ain't realistic navigating fun....!

This is intresting!

So you are saying that the brits didnt put one single compass in their planes? Compasses have been widely used since the 11th century and now im being told that the britsh were not able to install one in 1939??

Well from my old PPL days back many years ago i do remember having to set the DI to read what the compass said. But if I have no compass, how do I set the DI?

This is intresing! Im learning something new here!

1lokos
Mar-27-2013, 01:04
?

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/884/59743159.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/59743159.jpg/)

Seems that compass (P8) needle + still point to North - magnetic. :thumbsup: )

The digital scale (HUD) is that it seems work mirrored (counter clockwise), but is like in previous version...

Sokol1

palker
Mar-27-2013, 04:46
When i fly RAF planes i never use the compass since it is in such a ridiculously stupid place that it cannot be even seen. I just use map and terrain features to orient myself. German navigation equipment seems to be superior to me at least from the readability and user friendliness point of view.

Vladic
Mar-27-2013, 05:40
Hello, poster. I am new. Hope can learn more things with you.

Robo.
Mar-27-2013, 05:53
When i fly RAF planes i never use the compass since it is in such a ridiculously stupid place that it cannot be even seen. I just use map and terrain features to orient myself. German navigation equipment seems to be superior to me at least from the readability and user friendliness point of view.

Well of course it was more awkward than the other navigational instruments, e.g. German. This is exactly what happens when you put a navy compass designed for ships into a fighter aircraft. :) But to be fair, the way it is implemented in Cliffs of Dover is not entirely correct and it is in fact more difficult to use the instruments than it was in real life.

- the view was not restricted by the stick column, the compass was slightly offset to the left and pilot could see it alright above the stick when flying level.
- the P-8 compass had a small locking lever which restricted the movement of the bowl in the turns and maneuvers. In the game you turn ever so slightly and the compass is 40 degrees off. That was not happening in real life, you had to readjust every now and then but not quite like we have to.

It is possible to use it and also necessary for navigation, see this small workaround we use at ACG:

III. Instruments

The most important part is understanding the relevant cockpit instruments and using them correctly. Yes, this is where the navigation gets the bad reputation - the instruments used by the RAF are rather awkward to use in the game and not very straightforward in real life either:

P-8 compass

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10668862/ACG/Navigation/p8.jpg

Originally designed for naval use and therefore not exactly a precise instrument for a fighter aircraft. It is just what it looks like it is - a bowl of spirit with magnetised piece of metal in it. The outside part (the rim with the scale and glass top with yellow lines on it) is movable the pilot could rotate it by hand. You should map 2 keys to control it - Increase / Decrease Course setter.

The needle in the bowl is + shaped. One of the bit of this + looks like a letter 'T'. This bit is always pointing at the magnetic north. If you turn or do some manoeveurs, you will find that the compass will drift a bit and settle down eventually. This is completely normal and expected from a bowl of liquid placed in your aircraft. You will need to fly nice and level with both arrows on your turn-slip gauge vertically to get a precise reading. (Did I mention we fly a fighter aircraft?) The good news is though that you can always tell where your magnetic North is and that will need to be good enough for us to navigate.

How did they use in in real life? A pilot would rotate the rim to get the desired HDG on the 12 o'clock position of the instrument, in our case that would be HDG 245, (the exact value will be displayed on the HUD as you rotate the compass). Then he would flip the small lever on the side to lock the P-8 compass and prevent it from drifting as much as possible. This feature is unfortunately not modelled in game. As he flies he would turn the aircraft until the yellow lines match with the T - needle, almost like shown on the above picture. Mind you that has been taken from my Tiger Moth flight as the compass is not hidden inconveniently behind your control stick like in a Spitfire or Hurricane. Mind you the visibility of the instrument was much much better in real life than it is in game.

You will find that I already added the -10° compensation to fly on course based geographical north (the map). In flight, I would announce 'HDG 245' because that is what the instrument shows us and that is what we refer to at all times.

Directional Gyro

Both Hurricane and Spitfire are equipped with more advanced Directional Gyro instrument. It is always placed on the main panel where your main 6 gauges are for night flying, right there in the middle. The view is also obstructed by control stick, but you can get used to that. Basically, we use the P-8 compass to set up our Gyro and keep cross-checking the correct setting with the compass during the whole flight.

Note - your Gyro will not work while the engine is off, the gyro rotation is obviously propelled by your engine.

Normally, as a part of your pre-flight routine, you would set-up your P-8 compass (by rotating it untill the N on the rim matches with the T - needle) and by doing that you get your actual HDG (the number on the 12 o'clock of the rim). You would set up your gyro to that value and you're all set. Pretty awkward as you need to fiddle with 2 unprecise instruments that tend to drift away. Also, you need to look around your stick as you try to get a correct reading. If you consider you always 'spawn' with your P-8 compass set to HDG 0, you can keep it like that and get the actual reading by mirroring the reading of where the T- needle points.

This is very easy to do and much less complicated. You will also find it much easier to correct your Gyro once in flight.

Let's say you spawn like this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10668862/ACG/Navigation/mirror1.jpg

North is HDG 50, you would need to rotate the compass 50°to get the correct reading for your Gyro. Or you can simply deduct 50 from 360 giving you the actual HDG of 310. You might prefer a simple and quick visual aid and mirror the value onto the other side of the compass:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10668862/ACG/Navigation/mirror2.jpg

50°= 310°

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10668862/ACG/Navigation/mirror3.jpg

Another examples:

140°= 220°

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10668862/ACG/Navigation/mirror4.jpg

285°= 75°

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10668862/ACG/Navigation/mirror5.jpg

You adjust your Gyro based on this reading every now and then. You will get pretty fast at it with some practice and it will become natural after a while.

Flanker35M
Mar-27-2013, 05:55
S!

I usually navigate by the terrain features as they can be easily seen in most cases. The compass is better on the German planes than the British, I wonder why they have to make them so complicated and unreliable :D

Moggy
Mar-27-2013, 05:59
This is intresting!

So you are saying that the brits didnt put one single compass in their planes? Compasses have been widely used since the 11th century and now im being told that the britsh were not able to install one in 1939??

Well from my old PPL days back many years ago i do remember having to set the DI to read what the compass said. But if I have no compass, how do I set the DI?

This is intresing! Im learning something new here!

It's a gyroscopic compass so it's needs to be reset every 15 minutes or so in flight and before take off. As you have a PPL, the closest analogy I can think of is, it works on the same principle (kind of) as an INS.

This video should help you set up the compasses.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTRC0sY67Pg

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-27-2013, 06:08
Let's be careful we don't get lost here people.

There are TWO instruments that could be discussed.

1. The Directional Gyro - this is NOT a compass, it is a gyroscope
2. The Magnetic Compass / Direction Finder - this IS a compass

The Gyro is never correctly set when you spawn in. You have to calibrate it. It is prone to toppling and has to be constantly be calibrated if it is to be relied upon.
The DF is magnetic - and it therefore needs to be corrected for magnetic declination if you're reading off a grid-map. . You need to be flying close to level in order to accurately use it. It's clunky and slow, and difficult to read from the angles available in the game.

Your best option is to Nav visually.
If you need to navigate on instruments, set up your DF and the gyro when you are in level/ stable flight, or when on the ground.

Robo.
Mar-27-2013, 06:11
S!

I usually navigate by the terrain features as they can be easily seen in most cases. The compass is better on the German planes than the British, I wonder why they have to make them so complicated and unreliable :D

You need the navigational skills though when you're flying very low over the Channel and need to end up on some particular place on the coast. Or when you're deep inland on the deck and you can't see rivers and cities and everything is looking the same, you need to know your postion and heading and you can't circle too much because your compass won't be of much help. This is where the navigation becomes more interesting I suppose... Of course you can climb and have a look but that's not always feasible.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-27-2013, 06:14
You need the navigational skills though when you're flying very low over the Channel and need to end up on some particular place on the coast. Or when you're deep inland on the deck and you can't see rivers and cities and everything is looking the same.

At the moment we don't have any overcast missions. I use the sun ;)
As soon as we get overcast conditions, my methods will be rendered useless.

HolyGrail
Mar-27-2013, 08:12
Is this of any use ? :recon:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQWZEVaoFKQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6oGa1bqe1U

1lokos
Mar-27-2013, 08:39
Robo

I find this mirrored tip from RL difficult to use in CLoD because you are not able to see the compass scale from above.
The paralax effect induce a reasonable error in readings.


When i fly RAF planes i never use the compass since it is in such a ridiculously stupid place that it cannot be even seen.

Get NewView (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67864) and record a UView (user view), so you can see compass with one key/button press - even if you use TrackIr/Freetrack:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/PauloDRK/blen-bussola_zpsa27eb6e4.jpg

EDIT - How configure NewView: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5374&highlight=Newview

The case is, in the "small" battle area online: Littlestone - Manston - Oye Plage - Tramecourt, set compass, DG is not neccessary, just look at compass needle, if needle + point to aircraft nose you are heading to England, if point to aircraft tail you are heading to France. :thumbsup:

Interesting note about throuble with Hurricane P-8 in Burma (6)

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/TacHurriNotes.html

Sokol1

Robo.
Mar-27-2013, 10:01
Sokol - yes you can do that, too, good idea with the NewView. I personally have no problem seeing the needle of the compass, it's just I don't have to touch it as long as I mirror the reading in my head and I only adjust my gyro according to that.

Yes, very interesting with Burma issues, very basic piloting mistake, thanks for posting! :thumbsup:

Phil - yes mate, the sun also works fine obviously, but it's not as precise and you can't prepare your route beforehand. You might as well observe the moss on the tree trunks or something like that to find your way. :)

ATAG_Snapper
Mar-27-2013, 10:23
Sokol - yes you can do that, too, good idea with the NewView. I personally have no problem seeing the needle of the compass, it's just I don't have to touch it as long as I mirror the reading in my head and I only adjust my gyro according to that.

Yes, very interesting with Burma issues, very basic piloting mistake, thanks for posting! :thumbsup:

Phil - yes mate, the sun also works fine obviously, but it's not as precise and you can't prepare your route beforehand. You might as well observe the moss on the tree trunks or something like that to find your way. :)

Ah!!! Tree trunks!!! That's IT!!! All this time I've been looking at Rolling Stones for moss and not getting any satisfaction!!! (2 jokes in there....I'm such a witty guy! :D).

Actually, a potentially life-saving little trick I use when on enemy airfield suppression forays (er...vulching) borrows from Phil's suggestion. When hotly pursued on the deck in unfamiliar enemy territory, there's no time to even glance down to check inaccurate compass headings. Earlier en route I make a mental note of where the sun is relative to my aircraft. If it's off my port wing on the way in, then when I'm twisting and dodging tracers while running at zero feet at 300 mph down shallow valleys I consciously try to keep the sun on my STARBOARD wing. This gives me a better chance of eventually reaching the coast and scuttling for home. It works!

:)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Mar-27-2013, 10:50
Phil - yes mate, the sun also works fine obviously, but it's not as precise and you can't prepare your route beforehand. You might as well observe the moss on the tree trunks or something like that to find your way. :)

lol.

Well, I often tell whoever I'm flying with, the minute we hit the coast (if we are low) where they should put the sun, in order to get home.
For example, if it's early evening, I'll always say "Sun on the left wing to get home". Works a treat.

Katdog5
Mar-27-2013, 21:51
Awesome Thread!

Thx for the detailed answers fellas + the low flying navigation vid!

Wolger
Dec-19-2013, 09:34
Yea awesome thread. Was wondering where I did wrong when the reading was so off as I'd mistaken the Directional Gyro for a compass! It's not like DCS P-51D. Need to retrain myself.

Osprey
Dec-19-2013, 10:46
Also, something overlooked. It is very hard to see the reading on the bevel after setting it but fortunately, in the Hurricane only, you can mouse over it and it'll give you the DI value that you need to set.

Wolger
Dec-19-2013, 22:19
This is really a crucial skill to learn.

I can't navigate at all in inland France, ended up in Beauvais instead of Amiens.

Roblex
Dec-20-2013, 04:25
I tend to just look to see where the needle says North is then guess my heading. It is surprising how often I say '125 is roughly that way' and after turning I set the dial and see that my needle is almost lined up and just needs a tiny bit of aileron to be exact. To be honest, even when you are getting a precise intercept bearing, you don't need to be accurate to the degree and if you are just using Tab-7-1 then the headings are only accurate to within 30 degrees anyway so if it says 'Bombers 120' then just glance at where North is then turn to roughly the 4 o/c position.
Same goes for navigating, take a guess at the rough direction then put your trust primarily in landmarks.

Osprey
Dec-20-2013, 05:24
Well everything is easy when you have DR. It's when we have 9/10 cloud or night missions that you'll need familiarity with your instruments.