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II/JG53_Felix
Apr-03-2013, 03:22
This is an oldie, just wondering if there is any progress on the bomber gunner operation. Understand all multi-crew aircraft have the issue of intermittent gun operation when operated by a player. Real downer for bomber players.

1lokos
Apr-03-2013, 12:51
Felix,

About the "5m/s" limit.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=68949&p=1968630&viewfull=1#post1968630

Sokol1

Archie
Apr-03-2013, 13:25
The AI gunners of a human controlled plane are absolutely useless. flying a 110, I can look back and see my gunner dong practically nothing, even with a Spit on my tail, and flying straight and level.
A fix would be fantastic, and even better, if the controls could be taken back to '46 standards for human gunners. I used to like jumping in a gunners seat in '46, but I bet most don't bother in CoD.

1lokos
Apr-03-2013, 16:09
AI gunners can by dangerous.
In QM mission generally if you attack bomber in right side of formation gunners are "Mr.Magoo", but gunners of planes on left side are capable to PK you in seconds. Depend on how are set in FMB.

Sokol1

Sandy1942
Apr-03-2013, 16:56
Hello guys!
1lokos asked me to explain the reason of 5 m/s. About this restriction I told naryv - the ex-participating of the MG command. The original response to a question looks so: "I looked, firing interrupts when exceeding vertical speed +- 5 m/s. Most likely such restriction entered since many complaints were that gunners from very exotic provisions shoot when in principle shall seize something and be afraid, instead of shoot."

I wrote: Perhaps certainly, also it is realistic, but it is absolutely inconvenient for game. Such restriction is possibly acceptable for the linear bombers which under attack not especially maneuver. And here on Stuka you spin as fish on a frying pan and it is impossible to shoot on the red fighter from a machine gun. The same on Bf 110. IMHO, it is necessary to do lock from 10 m/s. Because 5 m/s are not so big angle, Stuka in climb goes more steep.

On what he responded: "Already, alas, late"

Now all hope of Team Fusion.

1lokos
Apr-03-2013, 17:55
Sandy1942,

Thank you. :thumbsup:

Sokol1=1lokoS

II/JG53_Felix
Apr-03-2013, 20:01
Thx Sandy1942 and 1lokoS for the 5 m/s explanation.

I don't know what 5 m/s would be in G force on the body, so I have to take the designer's word that it would be too difficult for the gunner to operate efficiently under that load. Also that the 5 m/s is modelled correctly in-game.
In SP I use a JU88 on autopilot and have a single Hurricane on Bomber Attack. I then fire from the rear upper gunner position. Have scored good hits on occasion, but the 5m/s limit seems to come in too quickly. Often it is hard to discern if the aircraft has deviated from level flight, let alone exceed 5 m/s in the vertical!

As discussed by Sandy1942, understand the concept of limiting the operation of the gunner to "realistic/reasonable" circumstances as can be modelled in game. A global setting of 5 m/s would appear, IMHO, to be too crude. I imagine that circumstances would be different between aircraft; variables such as gunner position (standing, seated, strapped-in, space in gunner compartment), gun mounts and aircraft orientation to mention a few. Moving a gun laterally could be difficult if not impossible at times but in the back of a bf110 with an enemy plane 50m behind, surely the gunner could press the trigger!, even if movement of the gun up-dn, left-right was a marginal proposition.

Modelling this in-game would be a much harder proposition than a global X m/s rule.

Perhaps Sandy's 10m/s suggestion could be all we could hope for at this stage.

Stigler
Apr-06-2013, 20:05
People need to understand the issue that do not fly multiplayer bombers.


The AI Gunners AI Gunnery skill can be modified, and can pose a threat example ATAG has AI Bomber formations that CAN hit something.

The Multiplayer AI Gunner of PLAYER spawned aircraft is HARDCODED to the lowest level, (no clue what they were thinking) which means it rarely even spots something directly on the six. The other issue is the 5ms. Set a single player mission up and put three bombers up in air with lowest skill gunners, attack them from any bad spot you will understand the issue then.

We admit IL-2 gunners were a bit OP, but the Clod gunners are not even worth the weight of the guns. They should hit something sitting on your six plinking you from 100 yards. Any skill level player Fighter even terribads can shoot down a clod multiplayer bomber easily. A terribad or overanxious player should lose his engine to AI gunner. Period. I should be able to do defensive maneuvers to avoid incoming fire and slip and slide and have the gunners hit something, especially against BAD attack types, low e and from rear aspect even in Clod. As it stands people just snipe both engines and move on to the next plane to save ammo, if you are over the ditch.

This is the biggest issue left for bombers, TF did excellent work on the FM's and other fixes.

II/JG53_Felix
Apr-13-2013, 23:35
5) How do you plan to make the skill of AI gunners? In the old "IL-2" theirs shooting could be better on the actual distance when the enemy plane is 300 meters and closer.

AI of the gunners is not an easy task. In fact, as you know, to teach him "beautiful" miss is the most difficult. By default, any AI has a phenomenal response and the ability to calculate point of prediction better then Siberian hunters. Programming AI to shoot in some kind of human way is a hard thing to do.

Interesting item from the "il2 Sturmovik" forum.

Muffin
Apr-14-2013, 04:16
I take out the guns in my bombers, I'd rather have a few more mph then dead weight.