Team Fusion Wiki updated with RAF and Luftwaffe Ammunition Info

[III./ZG76_Keller]

I've added two new pages to the Wiki detailing the different types of Luftwaffe and RAF ammunition.

Please be aware that info on some of the ammo types is quite hard to find, especially for the RAF stuff.

I may add a section on the Italian ammo but I'm not even sure that 1C had proper info on the ammo types; info on the internet is very difficult to find for the Italian ammo.

This resource is great for new pilots that ask questions about what the different types of ammo do.



RAF - http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=raf_ammunition

Luftwaffe - http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=gerammunition

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Top work Keller!!!

:thumbsup:

[Dutch]

Thanks old chap! Excellent stuff. :D

[ATAG_Bliss]

Great stuff Keller!

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[Torric270]

Nicely done, I changed settings on my gunners to see if that makes any difference.

[Doc]

As usual. Great work! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[DUI]

Nice overview - will be posted in our JG4 forum right away.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Good work Keller, you've brought together a lot of very useful and interesting information.

Just putting on a nitt-picking hat for the moment in the description of the MK VII ball ammunition, the wki describes it as



Ball, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark VII Jacketed pointed bullet with soft nose and lead base.


This isn't entirely accurate.

The majority of MKVII had an aluminium insert in the tip. Aluminium is 'harder' than pure lead (using both the Mohs and Brinell scale - Not sure what lead alloy was used in the MKVII round).

The intent of the MKVII design was to place the center of gravity to closer to the base of the round to cause the round to tumble on impact (Thus imparting as much energy as possible to the target) . It was designed this way to comply with the Hauge convention which forbade soft nosed bullets that expanded.

By describing the MK VII as having a "soft nose" might give the impression it would mushroom on a soft target.

For more info on the standard rounds (ball ammunition - introduction dates, projectile weight, muzzle velocity etc) try http://303british.com/id19.html.

Finding details on the more exotic rounds is very hard.

Cheers and thanks for putting in the effort to make this resource.

[III./ZG76_Keller]

A lot of MkVII ammo was made with a paper, plastic, or wood insert, the ammo that came from Canada was more likely to have the aluminum. The purpose of the paper/plastic/wood/aluminum was, as you said, to make the center of gravity toward the rear of the projectile.

The issue with the MkVII is that it was designed for hitting flesh and bone, it was made for infantry not airplanes. When the UK-made paper-tipped MkVII bullets hit something hard they would mushroom near the tip as there was only paper to support the tip of the bullet. The aluminum tipped version would have a similar effect but slightly different as the harder aluminum tip would be driven back into the softer lead causing mushrooming of the projectile closer to the middle of the bullet.

Either way, the MkVII wasn't an ideal bullet for anti aircraft uses. It was also quite questionable for use on infantry too as it was designed to make a large wound; Hague convention or not it was still cruel by design.


I've been all over the 303british.com website, not a lot of info there on bullet composition though.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

A lot of MkVII ammo was made with a paper, plastic, or wood insert, the ammo that came from Canada was more likely to have the aluminum. The purpose of the paper/plastic/wood/aluminum was, as you said, to make the center of gravity toward the rear of the projectile.

The issue with the MkVII is that it was designed for hitting flesh and bone, it was made for infantry not airplanes. When the UK-made paper-tipped MkVII bullets hit something hard they would mushroom near the tip as there was only paper to support the tip of the bullet. The aluminum tipped version would have a similar effect but slightly different as the harder aluminum tip would be driven back into the softer lead causing mushrooming of the projectile closer to the middle of the bullet.

Either way, the MkVII wasn't an ideal bullet for anti aircraft uses. It was also quite questionable for use on infantry too as it was designed to make a large wound; Hague convention or not it was still cruel by design.
.

Your not wrong, one web article I read a while back someone made the comment that it seamed to have been designed by lawyers! They could have been joking but the fact remains it did comply to the letter of the convention!

Sometimes its very hard to find internal details of the rounds. For a long time I've been trying to find out what the internals of the MK VIII Ball round were like but can't find anything.

For interest the following website has a number of good cross sections of a wide range of ammunition, including a couple of .303 rounds ( a AP and an Incendiary ).

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/index.htm#.303_British_AP

A year or so back I was playing about with some .303 reloads, the following jpg is of .303 (174grn) jacketed lead round (@~2350fps) The one of the right was fired through a 10inch high density foam ball at about 60 yards then into backstop of soft dry sand. Most of the rounds I recovered seamed to exhibit a similar deformation and followed a curverd path through the target

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303Deformsmall_zps06ab252e.jpg

I get some holidays in the not too distant future and have a packet of MKVII Ball rounds (1950's manufacture), If I get the chance I'll have to find a quiet spot and do some "tests" on various materials and try to document the results.

Cheers!

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Wow, I've never seen a bullet deform like that; I suppose the foam has a lot to do with it.

If you have some MkVII rounds you should pull a bullet and try to cut a cross section with a dremel tool, it'd be interesting to see what's inside.

[Blitzen]

This is great info...now can someone direct me on a how to change ammo from default to some of these? I know you have to do most changes initially in Options/Planes but not sure from there.If I save loadouts will these be the loadouts on say every 109E-4 mission? Can i change ammo by giving different "saves" different names? ditto on bomb choices for say the Ju-87 or the Ju-88? I feel I am not taking advantage of one of the neater working options in the sim.:doh:

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Hi Blitzen, the workings of bullet loadouts are one of the mysteries of CloD. I have steam cloud sync disabled and it seems to work well for me changing loadouts while in multiplayer. Others have issues and change and save their loadouts in the FMB, while others use the Options/Plane in the menu; I have also successfully edited the user.ini file manually.

One thing to note is that you should never completely unload a belt, by this I mean that you should never let your belting (lower left box) be empty. It seems that doing this can cause your gun to fire blanks only; you see flame from your guns, hear the sounds but no smoke or projectiles come out. I think this has something to do with the same reason that you can't <rr on the ATAG server if your guns are empty. Try editing through the Options/Plane menu and then do a single mission and do a ground strafe to be sure your guns are loaded.

On a side note, I don't think I've ever seen you on ATAG; you should hop on Teamspeak sometime and fly with us. I know you're mostly an offline player but you're missing out on the greatest aspect of Cliffs of Dover if you don't try flying online. :salute:

[Oersted]

Superb work Keller, thanks a lot. Slight suggestion: maybe add the umlaut to Ubungsmunition so it becomes the correct &#220;bungsmunition.

Maybe also explain that the "Zerleger" is the burst charge that serves as self-destruct mechanism for the practice round.

Also - in the detailed description of the Beobachtung ammo - maybe note (again) that it is an observation round. That's nit-picking, though!

Did you check out Flea's Aircraft operations Checklist? LOTS of great info there, also on ammunition. He allowed me to put it up on my site: http://www.flightsimvids.com/op2gvsapinst_3710.1b.pdf.zip

Great info in this wiki page. I hope it will be included in the next version of the manual.

[Oersted]

Ok, the umlaut doesn't render in this forum, but you know what I mean...

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Wow, I've never seen a bullet deform like that; I suppose the foam has a lot to do with it.

If you have some MkVII rounds you should pull a bullet and try to cut a cross section with a dremel tool, it'd be interesting to see what's inside.

Not sure if you want me to post here but say the word and I'll move it to a new thread. I pulled a projectile from one of the .303 MK VII rounds and cross sectioned the projectile. (Made a mess of it and ended up breaking the neck off the case in the process. It was crimped really hard!)

32 Cartridges . 303 inch Mk 7 ^ C.I.A. (P) P.O.F Dated 28 Dec 1967
(Made by the Pakistan Ordinance Factory, Rawalpindi.)
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303boxsmall_zps8f4f12eb.jpg

32 rounds packed in box
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303pacdkingsmall_zps74317fe0.jpg

.303 INCH Mk VII round
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303casesmall_zpsf20824c1.jpg

Base Stamp POF-67-7
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303stamp_zps70f4415c.jpg

Cordite strands (I measured it at 37.1 grains) plus what appears to be cardboard wadding
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303corditesmall_zps6f43e00b.jpg


Cross sectioned round.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/303paccrosssmall_zps347776cf.jpg

I'm not sure what material was used for the insert but it is definately not aluminium in these rounds. It could be wood although I don't see any grain. You mentioned plastic as an alternate filler, I wonder if it could be something like bakelite?

I'm not sure how long it will be before I have a chance to try them out, but I'll post a review when the time comes.

Cheers!

[ATAG_Snapper]

Great post, S-T! :thumbsup:

A couple of quick questions:

Do you know if the primers are Berdan (2 firing holes) primers? Please don't break a decapping pin on my behalf finding out!!!

Offhand, do you know if the primers are corrosive (requiring a rifle's bore to be well-cleaned after firing).

I reload .303's for my sporterized Lee Enfield, so my questions are just a fellow-enthusiast's curiosity.

BTW, good job on that bullet cross-section!

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Hi Snapper,

The cases are Berdan primed.

Yeh, the corrosive primers are a bit of a pain, it just doesn't feel right pouring boiling water down the barrel! :)

When I've used this surplus ammo in the past, it was a bit of an adventure. I didn't get any rounds not going off, but it makes you wonder when there is a variable delay between pulling the trigger and the round going off. Its fairly cheap but you would want to use it for anything serious.

I've used commercial brass for my realoads and have tended to make them fairly light - mostly just for plinking and I don't want to be hard too on the old girl!

Cheers!

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thanks, Skoshi Tiger. I found it fascinating to see the actual round (other than the date of manufacture, of course) pretty much the same as used in the BoB.

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Wow, great info Skoshi_Tiger!

If you can find it, grab a product called Sweet's 7.62, it's an ammonia based copper solvent for bore cleaning. I have shot lots of corrosive surplus 8mm from my Mauser and cleaned with this afterward, never a speck of rust.

[Kodoss]

@ Keller: A nice overview of all German cartridges of the caliber 7,92 from the great war to WW2.

Die Patrone 7,92x57.PDF (www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf)

All ammunition types and producer codes. The only downside, it's in German:-P

[III./ZG76_Keller]

That's great Kodoss, I might just translate that.

[Gromit]

Re the soft insert, not that it's relevant to the flight sim but I seem to recall talking to a guy on the ranges a few years back who claimed the soft insert as well as tumbling the round also reduced ricochet in a similar fashion to a bodkin point on an arrow, basically the tip deformed on impact reducing the bullets tendency to deflect.
anyone else heard anything similar?

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I finally managed to get away to the Old Mans farm and put a few of those 174grain Mk VII rounds through the SMLE.

Here are some the photos of the results. (sorry for the big images)

All rounds were fired at 50 metres fitting in with my philosophy of getting in close and blasting away with everything I've got and due to the fact that the ammunition was made in '67 and there was a noticeable delay between pulling the trigger and the round leaving the barrel (there may be a slight possibility it was due to my marksmanship - but I'd never admit to that ;) ) making it hard to hit the target at a hundred yards.

Image 1: is a shot of a plough disk which is 5mm (3.14/16th) convex steel. The MkVII had no problem making holes in this as shown.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0205_zpse8614305.jpg

Image 2: MkVII entry holes.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0206_zpsa7da4eb3.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0206_zpsa7da4eb3.jpg.html)

Image 3: exit holes from previous. Fairly raggard holes with a lot of tearing
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0207_zps866a65cb.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0207_zps866a65cb.jpg.html)

Image 4 Single entry hole.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0208_zps25ba3348.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0208_zps25ba3348.jpg.html)

Image 5: exit hole from previous.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0209_zpsc655bf68.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0209_zpsc655bf68.jpg.html)

After this I moved up to 6mm(3.78/16) flat plate.

This had mixed results - I think this was due to the plate being angled for two of the rounds.

Image 6: one round penetrated the plate with a nice circular hole, a second didn't penetrate but bulged the steel and the third keeled over causing an elongated gouge.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0210_zpsb03bf7c3.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0210_zpsb03bf7c3.jpg.html)

Image 7: Back of the plate showing exit and bulges.
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0211_zpsbb9fd9de.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0211_zpsbb9fd9de.jpg.html)

I then fired two 180grain soft pointed hunting rounds and was surprised by the result.
Image 8: Entry holes
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0213_zps54b08498.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0213_zps54b08498.jpg.html)

Image 9: Exit holes
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/DSC_0214_zps8d54c0be.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/Skoshi_Tiger/media/DSC_0214_zps8d54c0be.jpg.html)

One of the interesting things was that the plate in the section that the rounds penetrated was still fairly flat, but where the rounds failed to penetrate it was deformed and bent inwards.

Does anyone know how thick the armour plate on the Spitfire or the 109 was?

[Dutch]

Wow. Don't worry about the size of the photos mate, they are fascinating. I've never shot a gun in my life, so this kind of stuff is really informative. Thanks! :thumbsup:

According to our mate wiki, the seat back armour was 8mm on the Spit.