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gavagai
Apr-09-2013, 09:26
What happens if people decide modded Clod is better than BoS? Because of the cockpits, because of engine management, because of multiplayer potential, etc. Am I the only one who sees a storm cloud on the horizon? I see lawyers coming.

ChiefRedCloud
Apr-09-2013, 09:38
I see us not ignoring this but enjoying each day as it comes. Issues will arise but you can't be looking in every dark corner to find them. So till, when or IF it happens, let's fly.:thumbsup:

Continu0
Apr-09-2013, 10:33
I see lawyers coming.

I see 1C just making the TF-Patch official and continuing the development of the engine ;-)

-Sven-
Apr-09-2013, 13:30
There's people who like the more detailed 'sandbox' CLODTF, others might prefer the new BOM title because of it's gameplay value SP-wise. To determine who is better is rather hard I think.

I prefer the raw and open CLOD over the details which have been released about BOM, but who knows Jason's goals are, maybe because of TF he tries even harder :thumbsup:



However when you look further into the future, CLODTF will fall behind content wise. This is not a mockery towards the modders, but I think you can agree that a fulltime and fullpayed team can produce more content, which is important for the longevity of the sim. Some things aren't meant to last forever and by the time BOM has caught up and expanded we can all look back on a very enjoyable TF experience. I don't think that's bad at all.

Arthursmedley
Apr-09-2013, 13:38
I see 1C just making the TF-Patch official and continuing the development of the engine ;-)

That's a nice idea but I don't see it happening. As for lawyers being called in? Are you kidding? I don't think there's a budget for that, certainly not with the amount of units that flight sims shift and exactly who is going to be sued for what and in which country? It just ain't gonna happen.
Anyway, CoD was meant to be modded by it's users. The official forum has a modding board if I recall.

The more I fly the TF patch, the more I wonder what on earth 1C were thinking when they abandoned CoD.

gavagai
Apr-09-2013, 15:53
1C wouldn't need to sue for a legal response. Usually a cease and desist letter is sufficient.

Anyway, I am not convinced that the commercial product will be better. I used to think otherwise, but more and more I am impressed by what modding communities can accomplish. Yes, that is probably due to their not having deadlines and profit margins to worry about. TF could be for Clod what BMS has become for Falcon 4... Eventually the modders get bored and start to add new aircraft and pits. Who knows what will happen!

Continu0
Apr-09-2013, 17:18
The more I fly the TF patch, the more I wonder what on earth 1C were thinking when they abandoned CoD.

Yep... what the hell was it that made them do that...

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-09-2013, 19:22
That's a nice idea but I don't see it happening. As for lawyers being called in? Are you kidding? I don't think there's a budget for that, certainly not with the amount of units that flight sims shift and exactly who is going to be sued for what and in which country? It just ain't gonna happen.
Anyway, CoD was meant to be modded by it's users. The official forum has a modding board if I recall.

The more I fly the TF patch, the more I wonder what on earth 1C were thinking when they abandoned CoD.

Wise words.

In the meantime......play Cliffs of Dover and:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHFDa9efCQU&sns=em

TX-Gunslinger
Apr-09-2013, 20:19
I am very thankful for TF. With TF, we have an option and a choice. Without TF we have none.

While I have supported RoF, as a beta tester (first 15 patches) and customer (own all the planes) since before it's launch - I worry about what the final BoM product will be. I agree with the lack of concern of legal action. There is hardly any money in flight sims for development and production - much less multi-national legal fee's.

Furthermore, since this tiny community is only held togheter by reputation and good will - think about the public relations disaster that would befall the person/company who would take such an action.

Lastly, because TF is out there pushing the envelope and creating an example - it is probable to me that BoM will be a better product - as it's developers will see what is popular in our community and attempt to match it, or exceed it.

S!

Gunny

DK_
Apr-09-2013, 21:28
I do not seeing modded IL-2 CloD lasting indefinately but hope that it will live on for quite some time. Example, the Forgotten Hope mod for BF1942. It was awesome, and maybe some people still use the program, but it was left behind in the dust of development.

If anything, improvements such as the first mod that TF has done should increase the sales of this title. Someone should be pleased with that. Maybe they should allow TF more access to codes so they can really get it going with a full head of STEAM while it is still relatively fresh further increasing sales through word of mouth and enthusiast promotion.

I think it is important that the work of TF always be referred to as a mod / modification and never as "patch" as I have seen in some forums.

Thank you TF, you da man!

Dutch
Apr-09-2013, 21:36
- it is probable to me that BoM will be a better product -

I hope you're right. Because the product which was destroyed, warts and all, was and is, pretty good. On the other hand, 'probability' is a statistical tool.

We could have a debate as to whether a potential future product may or may not be 'probably better' than one which already exists. 'Better' is a very subjective word.

Do you mean 'better' as in 'it will make more money and therefore advance the cause of historical flight simulation'?

Or, do you mean 'it will be far more authentic, and therefore will be more successful because each and every Flight Sim fan will buy multiple copies'?

I tire of this.

P.S. It's not even 'BoM', it's 'BoS'. As in Stalingrad.

TX-Gunslinger
Apr-09-2013, 22:04
I hope you're right. Because the product which was destroyed, warts and all, was and is, pretty good. On the other hand, 'probability' is a statistical tool.

We could have a debate as to whether a potential future product may or may not be 'probably better' than one which already exists. 'Better' is a very subjective word.

Do you mean 'better' as in 'it will make more money and therefore advance the cause of historical flight simulation'?

Or, do you mean 'it will be far more authentic, and therefore will be more successful because each and every Flight Sim fan will buy multiple copies'?

I tire of this.

P.S. It's not even 'BoM', it's 'BoS'. As in Stalingrad.

No - you completely misunderstand my meaning - poor communication on my part.

I'm very concerned about what the new team will create - that was supposed to be a sequel to CoD. I believe that CoD is a superior product - which is why I spend a lot more time in it than RoF.

While I am concerned, I have hope now that Team Fusion has released the first patch and fixed many things that were poorly implemented. If Team Fusion continues to develop and fix - it will set a standard that simmers will enjoy - creating a reality that didn't exist before.

The Team Fusion created standard will drive expectations and development on the 777 side of the house. That will make the new sim better. If not, it will fail and then I don't really have to worry about it.

That's what I meant - hopefully I've made more sense and not more confusion.

S!

Gunny

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-10-2013, 07:10
Good follow up, Gunny. I agree that in many aspects Team Fusion's contributions have already raised the bar and, I believe, will continue to bump it ever higher.

I'm not on Team Fusion. In talking to a number of its members about the work they did for this current patch I was struck by the passion they put into this project in terms of both hours and intensity of work, including a lot of tedious, mind-numbing testing and retesting. All for free. It would be difficult for a company to pay programmers/modellers/testers and expect the same level of commitment and results that these guys delivered in such a short time.

Dutch
Apr-10-2013, 07:52
That's what I meant - hopefully I've made more sense and not more confusion.

Roger that Gunny old chum.
I get kinda prickly whenever the so called 'BoS' is mentioned, particularly as my own money, spent on RoF over the years, has contributed in a small way to the demise of Maddox games and the 'canning' of the original sequel.

I suppose I just have to get used to that.

:thumbsup:

[MORK]Dedagain
Apr-10-2013, 11:35
Seeing that what they eventualy delivered to us a product V what was promised on the box,I think they would have a pretty darned cheek to take any action what so ever. :salute:For the TF 3.00 patch:salute:

BlitzPig_EL
Apr-13-2013, 12:20
Seeing as Loft and BlackSix are saying the the new sim will be single player centric, I now do not have
much hope for it's success.

It seems that WW2 combat flight sim developers have a death wish for the genre.

It's very very sad.

Chivas
Apr-13-2013, 13:47
Highly unlikely that IC would take any action. The sales of BOS will depend on its quality not whether or not how good COD mods are. I'm not very happy with IC's and 777Studios collusion to kill COD, but it was a business decision, they may or may not regret making. Most people {not all} will buy BOS "if" its a quality product, even if its just to check it out for themselves. It may have been a problem if IC/777 were developing a BOB theater in the near future. Its possible TF could eventually expanding to the Med because of the existing aircraft set. Other theaters and time periods would be far to difficult and time consuming if it required later model aircraft. I don't think there will be any reason for IC/TF head butting for many years. Who knows what the landscape will be like in a few years. IC could resurrect the COD engine when computers are more powerful, and use/mod all TF efforts, if the COD engine has proven to be more future proof, than the 777Studios game engine. It will at least be very interesting to watch, whatever happens.

J86_Andy
Apr-13-2013, 16:19
Seeing as Loft and BlackSix are saying the the new sim will be single player centric, I now do not have
much hope for it's success.

It seems that WW2 combat flight sim developers have a death wish for the genre.

It's very very sad.

He was answering someone asking about "new" MP mode. All we can spect then is the same MP modes than RoF has?? No MP is a business suicide I dont think they will do, just no new modes when compared to their last game. No MP no money from me.

airdoc
Apr-14-2013, 09:36
Unfortunately, the developers of BOS apparently do not consider the TF patch as a welcome improvement in CLOD. If you look into the weekly interviews in BOS, you 'll see a comment by the project leader referring to TF as "boys not respecting our work, ", on the basis of "none having contacted them" or something similar IIRC. That is not unexpected, since CLOD was probably a big personal disappointment to the russian developers, and they wouldn't want a team of non-professionals make them look incompetent (which although I am sure TF does not aim to do, it sure has a similar impact on the minds of some flight simmers).

I don't know the backstage happenings (if any), but I would sure like to hope that TF members maintain good relationship with BOS developers (to the extent they can). They were courteous enough to call in to Oleg and Ilya in their patch readme, and this was probably a wise thing to do. Lawsuits are out of the question, as there can be no firm legal basis for it. Furthermore, it would be extremely unwise for 1C and 777 to engage in a witch-hunt against the members who have grown in reputation and respect among the flight sim community enthusiasts. This would enrage flight sim community members, who represent a small but compact market and essentially form the core body of their customers for BOS.

After the abandonment of CLOD, my hopes (and probably others' too) rested with the incorporation of CLOD into BOS. Unfortunately it seems that this is not going to happen. So, TF will probably be busy for the next couple of years.
Except from the fact that their work is of high quality and delivered in a short period of time, I think that their continued development of CLOD will bring on a competition with BOS. 1C and 777 should be by now well aware of the renewed interest in CLOD and this adds some pressure on them to make BOS even better. From this competition, flight sim community has only to gain. Who knows, maybe after the release of BOS, maybe they will find a way to merge the two products, if all things work well for them, incorporating TF improvements and hiring some of their members (the russian team already stated that they are on the lookout for talented new programmers).

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-14-2013, 11:20
It was my understanding that the "boys" was an incorrect translation from Russian; it should instead be "guys" or "fellows". The "disrespect for not contacting 777/1C first" was disingenuous, since the owner of 777 had already publicly gone on record as stating that there was to be no further discussion of Cliffs of Dover with 1C's release of the final patch. Indeed, the Official 1C Forum of Cliffs of Dover was aggressively deleting any posts querying the future of Cliffs of Dover, plus, until very recently, any referral whatsoever to the anticipated TF mod patch.

With that in mind, the phone works both ways. AFAIK no attempt was made by anyone from 777/1C to offer TF any assistance whatsoever after publicly rebuffing their efforts.

Personally, in light of the above, I see no reason why TF should go hat-in-hand to anyone to grovel "for respect".

EDIT: Looking forward, what would be interesting is if 777/1C saw fit to cooperate with TF by offering to make the Clod source code available. 777/1C could, in turn, use the Clod engine with TF's ongoing advances to further their work on BoS and BoM (of which much work has already been done, just not implemented when the doors were slammed shut). 777/1C could still use the state money they say they never got, and both parties would benefit from this sharing of knowledge. We as a community would see huge benefits in wide ranging improvements from Net Code to weather effects in two interconnected modules a la DCS.

Of course, there would have to be an element of mutual trust. Hmmmm.

airdoc
Apr-14-2013, 13:56
It was my understanding that the "boys" was an incorrect translation from Russian; it should instead be "guys" or "fellows". The "disrespect for not contacting 777/1C first" was disingenuous, since the owner of 777 had already publicly gone on record as stating that there was to be no further discussion of Cliffs of Dover with 1C's release of the final patch. Indeed, the Official 1C Forum of Cliffs of Dover was aggressively deleting any posts querying the future of Cliffs of Dover, plus, until very recently, any referral whatsoever to the anticipated TF mod patch.

With that in mind, the phone works both ways. AFAIK no attempt was made by anyone from 777/1C to offer TF any assistance whatsoever after publicly rebuffing their efforts.

Personally, in light of the above, I see no reason why TF should go hat-in-hand to anyone to grovel "for respect".

EDIT: Looking forward, what would be interesting is if 777/1C saw fit to cooperate with TF by offering to make the Clod source code available. 777/1C could, in turn, use the Clod engine with TF's ongoing advances to further their work on BoS and BoM (of which much work has already been done, just not implemented when the doors were slammed shut). 777/1C could still use the state money they say they never got, and both parties would benefit from this sharing of knowledge. We as a community would see huge benefits in wide ranging improvements from Net Code to weather effects in two interconnected modules a la DCS.

Of course, there would have to be an element of mutual trust. Hmmmm.

I 'd agree with you on most things Snapper, however I 'd just want to make a minor comment. I 'm not defending the CLOD developing team here, but I do understand that they were probably forced into making a decision to abandon CLOD by their higher ranking management team. The decision to stop all threads about new developments was probably a higher call as well, which I am sure they would have absolutely no power over (maybe they even welcomed it, but who knows?). 1C and 777 are pulling the strings here, and their primary concern is to make a financial success out of BOS. Having a "failed" product such as CLOD continuing to attract potential customers may work against BOS in terms of sales (and that is a "may").

Having said that, and bearing in mind that the initial plan after the abandonment of CLOD was to incorporate it into BOS -which for unknown(?) reasons was refuted- I do see a rather edgy situation for the decision to offer the code to the community. While we love virtual flying, 1C likes making profit. And it will always dislike potential threats to this profit. So, in my view, the best probable turnout would be for BOS to be a huge financial success. This would give the russian devs their confidence back, 1C would put more trust in their products, and would be more willing to risk more money into attempting to merge a financially "dead" title -CLOD- with BOS. If by then TF has kept the dream up and moved on to new maps, more aircraft and even less bugs -and maybe deciphering the whole code altogether-, it could be possible for 1C to acknowledge that merging a highly successful modification-improvement would ultimately lead to an even bigger financial success. For this to happen, I presume that at least a decent level of communication and as you noted, mutual trust, be maintained.

But these are too many ifs and we are far away from something like that. For the time being, another big thanks to TF and ATAG server for keeping the dream alive.

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-14-2013, 16:20
I 'd agree with you on most things Snapper, however I 'd just want to make a minor comment. I 'm not defending the CLOD developing team here, but I do understand that they were probably forced into making a decision to abandon CLOD by their higher ranking management team. The decision to stop all threads about new developments was probably a higher call as well, which I am sure they would have absolutely no power over (maybe they even welcomed it, but who knows?). 1C and 777 are pulling the strings here, and their primary concern is to make a financial success out of BOS. Having a "failed" product such as CLOD continuing to attract potential customers may work against BOS in terms of sales (and that is a "may").

Having said that, and bearing in mind that the initial plan after the abandonment of CLOD was to incorporate it into BOS -which for unknown(?) reasons was refuted- I do see a rather edgy situation for the decision to offer the code to the community. While we love virtual flying, 1C likes making profit. And it will always dislike potential threats to this profit. So, in my view, the best probable turnout would be for BOS to be a huge financial success. This would give the russian devs their confidence back, 1C would put more trust in their products, and would be more willing to risk more money into attempting to merge a financially "dead" title -CLOD- with BOS. If by then TF has kept the dream up and moved on to new maps, more aircraft and even less bugs -and maybe deciphering the whole code altogether-, it could be possible for 1C to acknowledge that merging a highly successful modification-improvement would ultimately lead to an even bigger financial success. For this to happen, I presume that at least a decent level of communication and as you noted, mutual trust, be maintained.

But these are too many ifs and we are far away from something like that. For the time being, another big thanks to TF and ATAG server for keeping the dream alive.

I agree with you 100%, Airdoc. Of course, I wasn't there, but I can only imagine the frustration the Clod development team experienced over an extended period of time because of direction from on high. The devs knew the problems with Clod, they could only work on them to a limited degree (that was my understanding, at least), and at the end the plug was pulled on them. I believe only a very few were retained to work on BoS, the others were let go. Realistically, I foresee the two sims being worked on in future independently of each other per the status quo at present.

Catseye
Apr-14-2013, 19:03
It was my understanding that the "boys" was an incorrect translation from Russian; it should instead be "guys" or "fellows". The "disrespect for not contacting 777/1C first" was disingenuous, since the owner of 777 had already publicly gone on record as stating that there was to be no further discussion of Cliffs of Dover with 1C's release of the final patch. Indeed, the Official 1C Forum of Cliffs of Dover was aggressively deleting any posts querying the future of Cliffs of Dover, plus, until very recently, any referral whatsoever to the anticipated TF mod patch.

With that in mind, the phone works both ways. AFAIK no attempt was made by anyone from 777/1C to offer TF any assistance whatsoever after publicly rebuffing their efforts.

Personally, in light of the above, I see no reason why TF should go hat-in-hand to anyone to grovel "for respect".

EDIT: Looking forward, what would be interesting is if 777/1C saw fit to cooperate with TF by offering to make the Clod source code available. 777/1C could, in turn, use the Clod engine with TF's ongoing advances to further their work on BoS and BoM (of which much work has already been done, just not implemented when the doors were slammed shut). 777/1C could still use the state money they say they never got, and both parties would benefit from this sharing of knowledge. We as a community would see huge benefits in wide ranging improvements from Net Code to weather effects in two interconnected modules a la DCS.

Of course, there would have to be an element of mutual trust. Hmmmm.

Hi Snapper,
It is my understanding that 777 has nothing to do with Cliffs of Dover ergo: no contact made with them. This has been posted by Bliss several times on different forums.

777 have acquired the rights to develop the sequel BoS from 1C. - not the rights to Cliffs of Dover. So why would TF contact 777?

Cheers,

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-14-2013, 19:17
Hi Snapper,
It is my understanding that 777 has nothing to do with Cliffs of Dover ergo: no contact made with them. This has been posted by Bliss several times on different forums.

777 have acquired the rights to develop the sequel BoS from 1C. - not the rights to Cliffs of Dover. So why would TF contact 777?

Cheers,

Good distinction, Cats -- very true. Which makes Loft's statement even more puzzling. Whatever mods TF makes to Clod is utterly none of his business.

Dutch
Apr-14-2013, 20:20
As I perceive things, the 'IL2 Sturmovik' branding has been transferred to the new 'Joint' company, such that all products previously marketed under this branding are controlled by the new company. However 1C still have overall control. Of course they do, they're huge.

The 1C and therefore Team Daedelus contribution to the 'franchise' is unchanged, and as 1C have no gripe regarding 'mods', the new 'Joint' company can't do a damned thing. But I'd say it's also burning their arse quite badly, because they already know that the new product is going to be way behind what we already have, and the parent company will be watching very closely.

Kind of along the lines of DCS would be my bet, but with higher volume, lower priced marketing strategy. DCS still recommend 'up to 16 players' online.

'Single Player Focus'. 'Nuff said.


:ind:

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-14-2013, 21:00
Ironically, Team Fusion have no doubt caused an upsurge in Clod sales which has directly benefited 1C -- at no cost whatsoever to 1C. If there was potential for Cliffs of Dover to reach its full potential (including manned & armed ground vehicles) at zero cost but leading to increased sales.....thousands of increased sales....that would probably garner interest even amongst the 1C bigwigs who shut it down in the first place. Money talks. Could be interesting........

:devilish:

Catseye
Apr-14-2013, 21:24
'Single Player Focus'. 'Nuff said.

:ind:

Ain't that the saddest though!

Catseye
Apr-14-2013, 21:27
Ironically, Team Fusion have no doubt caused an upsurge in Clod sales which has directly benefited 1C -- at no cost whatsoever to 1C. If there was potential for Cliffs of Dover to reach its full potential (including manned & armed ground vehicles) at zero cost but leading to increased sales.....thousands of increased sales....that would probably garner interest even amongst the 1C bigwigs who shut it down in the first place. Money talks. Could be interesting........

:devilish:

The fart in the diving suit here might be that 1C might have some agreement with 777 holding back on any further development of CLOD in order not to jeopardize sales for BOS. At least that would be part of an agreement to develop BOS that I would put on the table if I were in 777's shoes.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Apr-14-2013, 22:01
Since the TF patch I personally know several new purchasers of Clod. I agree that they (1C) will/have seen a bit of new bizz for free. I don't see the problem.:thumbsup:

Dutch
Apr-15-2013, 08:36
The fart in the diving suit here might be that 1C might have some agreement with 777 holding back on any further development of CLOD in order not to jeopardize sales for BOS. At least that would be part of an agreement to develop BOS that I would put on the table if I were in 777's shoes.

Well while we're in a speculative frame of mind, we need to remember the name of the new 'joint company', i.e. 1C Gamestudios. You'll notice it's not '777 game studios'. I'd speculate that the '777' contingent have already tried and failed to convince their 1C overlords and funders to withdraw 'Cliffs' from sale altogether. Obviously 1C would laugh and say 'on yer bike mate', especially given the scenario Snapper suggests and Zodiac supports with evidence.

Longer term, who knows? It'll be about units sold and profits made, and maybe 1C will keep both products going in order to assess the real long term best strategy to suit the market. Maybe once 'BoS' is released, 1C really will withdraw 'Cliffs' from sale, but then again, maybe they'll point to the number of units sold by then and somehow resurrect the original sequel, but changing the venue to Malta (tongue very firmly in cheek, there guys...), keeping 'Cliffs' as the basis for onliners and 'BoS' for offliners. Maybe we'll see a straightforward shift towards specific single player games for offliners, and MMOs for the onliners, rather than products which aim to do both (God Forbid! :D ).

Maybe, maybe. Point is that they will both be 1C products, developed by subsidiary development groups, and 1C will be the arbiters whether their subsidiary is called 'Maddox Games' or '1C Gamestudios', and 1C as the parent company will tell 'em to go whistle if TF help sell product. Simples.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Apr-15-2013, 09:34
Well said Dutch! Meanwhile, we will all keep our logbooks updated and AAR's positive.:thumbsup:

71st_AH_Eagle
Apr-23-2013, 22:36
Why must there be so much that I know yet there is nothing that I can speak of it? :ind:

Snapper, if I can chat with you sometime on steam this weekend, there are stuff that I need to tell you.

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-24-2013, 01:29
Sure, Eagle. Plus, you can always pop me a PM here on this forum. I get notified very quickly by email if there's a new message in my mailbox. Either way, we'll hook up,mate. :thumbsup: