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View Full Version : How about some maturity and respect.



ATAG_Torian
Apr-22-2013, 09:50
Well I've had a gut full of this stupidity. Flying on the server last nite and Grentos has himself parked in a 109 E4 on the runway at Ramsgate. Flak hasn't killed him so I rake his cockpit and PK him. Plane stays on the runway and stays... and stays... and stays. Flak going off all over the Knob because of it. After quite some time I questioned one of his countrymen who informed me he has gone out...not from the server but afk. How long can a dead pilot stay in his plane and not despawn ?? How can we let this sort of childlike disrespect for our server and a combat flight SIM be tolerated ? If this were an isolated case it wouldn't be so bad but any1 who flys Red for any length of time can recognise this is now a reliable trend. So, what do u all want, a mature flight SIM server or an anything goes free for all ?
Sorry to name names but his action was as public as this post and obviously deliberate.

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-22-2013, 10:14
I agree, it's an exploit of a system glitch in that the e/a is persistent instead of instantly despawning. Salmo in a previous thread has a scripting solution which I've requested the mission designers to consider and implement if feasible.

PM's sent.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Apr-22-2013, 10:37
I know you chaps are ATAG, and might be loyal to your server in particular... but there are other options, server-wise.

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-22-2013, 11:25
Of course there are other servers, Phil, but we'd like to fix this one! :-)

ATAG_Lolsav
Apr-22-2013, 12:30
Hi boys.

Torian dont get me wrong and do not interpeter this post as a defense. I can sense a bit of hot headed there from your side, judging by the post. We dont know what happened to that particular pilot in real life. Did he had to rush in haste? Can you imagine if there was something serious behind that, by leaving the pc and game running? We simply dont know.

Hell, sometimes i get back from a sortie and get the < rr going, wife calls and im off for a bit. When i return the plane is refilled, or, other times, some strange darkness appears in my screen. And i didnt do it on purpose to steal a kill on anyone.

So, all what im saying is: Give it some slack. Its just a game. I know your a fair pilot and on purpose you wouldnt do anything to prejudice a game so beloved. But think a bit: Do you do the same response to losing a kill when stats dont work or something? I dont think you would.

S!

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-22-2013, 12:41
Good point, Lolsav. I believe the tone of Torian's post was borne of utter frustration with the system -- which needs to be fixed. I hope all is fine with Grentos. He is a longtime and honourable player whom I'm sure would not resort to such a cheap exploit. There's usually a logical explanation for these things.

Unfortunately, there are players on both sides that regularly tie up enemy airfields deliberately for extended periods without despawning, which I've witnessed myself. It's a bug that needs to be squashed. :D

ATAG_Bliss
Apr-22-2013, 12:46
Hi boys.

Torian dont get me wrong and do not interpeter this post as a defense. I can sense a bit of hot headed there from your side, judging by the post. We dont know what happened to that particular pilot in real life. Did he had to rush in haste? Can you imagine if there was something serious behind that, by leaving the pc and game running? We simply dont know.

Hell, sometimes i get back from a sortie and get the < rr going, wife calls and im off for a bit. When i return the plane is refilled, or, other times, some strange darkness appears in my screen. And i didnt do it on purpose to steal a kill on anyone.

So, all what im saying is: Give it some slack. Its just a game. I know your a fair pilot and on purpose you wouldnt do anything to prejudice a game so beloved. But think a bit: Do you do the same response to losing a kill when stats dont work or something? I dont think you would.

S!

Agreed..

If a plane lands on an enemy airfield the only thing they are doing is making the surrounding flak shoot at him. It's not like they can hurt you.

We are the only server that has R&R, and because of this you can land and take off again, (the player deciding when to get rid of his plane for a new one). This is a prime example of how trying to implement new features just comes back to kick you in the ass. We have very few rules for a reason. And landing at enemy fields isn't breaking any of them.

ATAG_Torian
Apr-22-2013, 17:57
The problem is that while the flak is distracted it is giving that side an advantage. if I wanted I could create another steam account, load up the game on an old pc, go and park a bomber on Pihen and continue to fly on my regular pc. It's hard enuff for flak to hit 109s on the British side let alone when half of it is being diverted to a dummy. What might be a start is if some1 is doing it we may request the player to refrain. An habitual offender .....well u tell me. I just greatly fear that if we don't set a standard it will become standard operating procedure.

ATAG_Bliss
Apr-22-2013, 18:15
The problem is that while the flak is distracted it is giving that side an advantage. if I wanted I could create another steam account, load up the game on an old pc, go and park a bomber on Pihen and continue to fly on my regular pc. It's hard enuff for flak to hit 109s on the British side let alone when half of it is being diverted to a dummy. What might be a start is if some1 is doing it we may request the player to refrain. An habitual offender .....well u tell me. I just greatly fear that if we don't set a standard it will become standard operating procedure.

If we make this a rule would you enforce it? Would you spend countless hours of your own time going through tracks of offenders and decide to ban them, respond to all forum accusations, etc. etc., etc.,?? Because I know I sure as heck wouldn't. I feel sorry for any server that has to constantly "admin" and I don't feel like devoting 1/3 of my day to complaints about a rule, watching tracks, enforcing bans etc.,etc.,etc.. It's easy to make the suggestion, but when you are the one that actually has to follow through with all the consequences of that suggestion, I think you'd change your mind in a heartbeat.

And there is no real right or wrong here. The player isn't breaking a rule. It may be considered in a different spirit in which you play. But that's one of the joys here on this server. I will never frown upon someone playing how ever they want to. If they are taking away the flak then take a blemmy and bomb their plane to pieces. Once the place is destroyed the flak will stop shooting at it.

The other option is to make it so we bring the old despawn back, but in doing so would get rid of <RR. I think I'd rather have the occasional enemy plane land on the other side than do that. Like I said, I guarantee if you saw it from my angle you wouldn't want anything to do with enforcing that. Because if you were the admin getting 100 PMs a day and having to respond to tons of forum posts I'm pretty sure you would soon realize how trivial a plane out of the fight landing on your own airfield is. Trust me. I've been there.

III./ZG76_Keller
Apr-22-2013, 19:49
Drop a bomb on the plane, I think that'll make it disappear.

Edit: Oops, Bliss already suggested this.

ATAG_Torian
Apr-22-2013, 19:50
Ok, didn't realise that if the plane was was destroyed it would despawn. I PK'd the pilot thinking that would despawn him shortly but it doesn't. I accept your point about policing it. it's a tad frustrating for those who would like to have a more realistic sim experience. The diverse nature of the Internet does make that unfeasible unless u are prepared to run a closed server.
My apologies Grentos.

ATAG_Ribbs
Apr-23-2013, 00:18
Couldn't a simple script be made that would cause the AAA to stop firing upon an aircraft after a pk or eject the pilot upon landing on an enemy airfield?.... just curious..

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Apr-23-2013, 05:44
Couldn't a simple script be made that would cause the AAA to stop firing upon an aircraft after a pk or eject the pilot upon landing on an enemy airfield?.... just curious..

probably. but would it be implemented on the server?

Gromit
Apr-23-2013, 14:24
how about they simply bail out and stop landing on enemy air bases, it's plainly obvious what's going on!

a 24 hour ban for offenders might curb this nonsense!

Dutch
Apr-23-2013, 18:46
a 24 hour ban for offenders might curb this nonsense!

Nope. Not for me me ole mate. This introduces 'rules'. There are no rules. That's the beauty of the ATAG server. 'No rules' is the best rule ever introduced to the online combat flight sim arena.

I still feel for the admin guys back in the 'BF' forum, who spent most of their time kicking, banning and then arguing with people who'd commited 'infractions of the rules'. Road to nowhere that is.

I had a run in myself with an admin chap there (won't mention his tag :D ), who kicked me for shooting at a bomber. The rule was that any aircraft taking off should be allowed to raise flaps and gear and gain some airspeed before being attacked, but by the way you shouldn't even be in the vicinity of an enemy airfield because this is known as 'camping'. Being absolutely crap at that stage, I was hopelessly lost on the map and just came across an enemy airfield with a big fat juicy bomber taking off. Abiding by the rules, I allowed him to raise gear and flaps, allowed him to gain some airspeed as per the rules, and then as I went in to shoot at him, his rear gunner shot me down, but I was kicked from the server having broken 'too many rules'.

If anyone here finds this anecdote interesting, I despair. 'No Rules' - Best rule.....:D

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-23-2013, 19:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4mrcSGRqdE&amp;sns=em

Dutch
Apr-23-2013, 19:47
Spot on. Great choice. Impressive speed of response what's more. Like it. :D :thumbsup:

TX-Gunslinger
Apr-23-2013, 19:49
Nope. Not for me me ole mate. This introduces 'rules'. There are no rules. That's the beauty of the ATAG server. 'No rules' is the best rule ever introduced to the online combat flight sim arena.

I still feel for the admin guys back in the 'BF' forum, who spent most of their time kicking, banning and then arguing with people who'd commited 'infractions of the rules'. Road to nowhere that is.

I had a run in myself with an admin chap there (won't mention his tag :D ), who kicked me for shooting at a bomber. The rule was that any aircraft taking off should be allowed to raise flaps and gear and gain some airspeed before being attacked, but by the way you shouldn't even be in the vicinity of an enemy airfield because this is known as 'camping'. Being absolutely crap at that stage, I was hopelessly lost on the map and just came across an enemy airfield with a big fat juicy bomber taking off. Abiding by the rules, I allowed him to raise gear and flaps, allowed him to gain some airspeed as per the rules, and then as I went in to shoot at him, his rear gunner shot me down, but I was kicked from the server having broken 'too many rules'.

If anyone here finds this anecdote interesting, I despair. 'No Rules' - Best rule.....:D

+1 Dutch. +1000.

All of us who have flown for a decade or more - have seen all those servers come and go. As you add rules, you shorten the lifespan of the server. For many reasons, chief of which is the drain and added stress upon the hosting organization.

For every rule, not encoded in the game - some poor soul has to take time away to attempt to enforce it. Every squad member focused on police duty, is taken away from flying on the server. Police duty also has it's stress toll. The more stress and work to run the server, the sooner there isn't anyone around for "duty". The more stress on the "home" squad, the crankier they get.

There is not a single tactical situation that cannot be overcome by skill or alternative tactics. If one airbase is down, the why is it such a big deal to spawn at another? I spawn at Eastchurch 90% of the time anyway. Nice friendly airfield up there - no crowded taxiways - very little German attention :)

Salmo
Apr-23-2013, 22:28
All this talk of server rules, banning players & admin's having to police gameplay entirely misses the point. IL2-1946 server admins implimented rules to get players to play in a certain manner (eg. not vulching bases) because the game had no mechanism to change the gameplay from other than the 'stock' game.

There is an entirely different paradigm for COD, and thus you need to think in a different manner. COD scripts are a powerful mechanism to alter how the game plays. No need for "server rules", or for admins to police gameplay. If you don't like something, then change it using scripts. The scripts are self-enforcing. Luthier himself said that he built a sandbox for others to manipulate to obtain the type of gameplay they wanted.

So how about it, ATAG Admins? We all know that some players are exploiting the game by landing at enemy bases to act as flak-diverters, or to RR at an enemy base. How about implimenting a script that removes the player's plane from the battle if they land in enemy territory? For that matter, with Torian's example of pilot killing a player on the ground but the plane remaining intact & attracting flak, you could even script that a plane is removed from the battle if it's on the ground when the pilot is killed. Let's get a little more innovative guys! The game can be much more that just 'stock' gameplay.

ATAG_Bliss
Apr-24-2013, 00:03
All this talk of server rules, banning players & admin's having to police gameplay entirely misses the point. IL2-1946 server admins implimented rules to get players to play in a certain manner (eg. not vulching bases) because the game had no mechanism to change the gameplay from other than the 'stock' game.

There is an entirely different paradigm for COD, and thus you need to think in a different manner. COD scripts are a powerful mechanism to alter how the game plays. No need for "server rules", or for admins to police gameplay. If you don't like something, then change it using scripts. The scripts are self-enforcing. Luthier himself said that he built a sandbox for others to manipulate to obtain the type of gameplay they wanted.

So how about it, ATAG Admins? We all know that some players are exploiting the game by landing at enemy bases to act as flak-diverters, or to RR at an enemy base. How about implimenting a script that removes the player's plane from the battle if they land in enemy territory? For that matter, with Torian's example of pilot killing a player on the ground but the plane remaining intact & attracting flak, you could even script that a plane is removed from the battle if it's on the ground when the pilot is killed. Let's get a little more innovative guys! The game can be much more that just 'stock' gameplay.

Placeholder: Script posted here soon.

Salmo,

The problem isn't the fact that we have the ability to use all these scripts, the problem is using all these scripts causes massive performance problems. Our scripting from early on (game release) to now has actually decreased 10 fold because it makes online smooth. Turn on your ingame server log while flying on the server and every 15 seconds, if not faster, is accompanied by a script error of some sort. Errors occur when people do something as simple as drop bombs on static objects. After seeing those for so long, you quickly find out what static objects you can and can not use for targets.

I remember an earlier version of the sim where ships wouldn't sink. With many players on the server, the resulting error was happening so fast you couldn't even read it, all from a single type of ship. This brought performance to it's knees online. I mean, trust me, every single script change needs to be monitored heavily with a full server to see if it can take it. I know it maybe simple for you to make all these scripts, but the fact of the matter is they need to be tested. There's so many errors and faulty callouts, that adding more to it just hurts online performance.

I wish we could use all these scripts, but internal buggyness of it all hinders more than helps.

I'm willing to try anything, but as I've told you before, if it prevents players from joining, or the chatbar is filled with complaint after complaint of stutters/lag etc., caused by constant error after error going on in the background, it simply can't be used.

I understand you are from the other side of the planet and the population is much less at those times of day, but trust me in saying, one bad script / error over the normal amount of errors can make 100 people online turn into 25 online in a couple minutes. It's that bad while flying. And that's exactly why every single line of code that is put in a script has to be tested with a large playerbase and see the seat of your pants performance, along with the server log.

It's no different than a thread I read where you were saying the statics at airfields don't make a difference to performance/FPS for players. It may not with 20 players, but I can tell you, when you get 70+ on there and those static objects come into view (dot range) in a cluster, your entire PC may come to a halt/freeze for a second or so. All this stuff is real game changers with lots of people online. I wish it affected the same way with 20 players or less than it did with 60-70+ so you could see it for yourself. But the difference in performance is MASSIVE. I'd love to have this full on battle on the ground, in the air etc., all going on with scenery at every airfield and all sorts of great stuff, but the reality is the limits of things in the online world are much the same as IL246 online is (which is still far better object count than any other MP sim ever made). But the point is, Clod isn't some miracle in this regard. It's virtually the same with the exception of the ability to add all this coding.

If those errors weren't present, I think the sky would be the limit with scripting, but the errors kill it plain and simple. Either way I'll try anything, but if it hinders performance for players, it can't be used.

ATAG_Torian
Apr-24-2013, 03:30
My post was born of a frustrating evening getting shot down twice over Ramsgate trying to duke it out with 109s who were flying with impunity as the flak was diverted to the closest aircraft...the 109 on the runway. It was late at nite, not that many on the server, and I was tired after a stressful shift at the hospital. I needed to kill something and I was being killed instead. These kinda "tactics" are not my personal preference but I am prepared to learn the ways of the Force and deal as good as I get this being the case. A plane parked on an airfileld we can bomb, a plane that has slid into the forest however is very hard to spot but will nonetheless attract the flak. Bliss has made valid points and I will hold my peace as I am still very thankful for all his and others hard work and the ATAG servers are still my "other" home. One of the older maps was up last nite and I had a ball in a 110 bombing the inland English targets. If a script can be implemented that doesn't affect server performance then that would be great. If not then it's game on and we can all learn some surprise "kick in the nuts" move if needed.
I'm glad we got this out in the open a bit. We now know definitively that anything goes and live with it and go do something else if ur getting steamed up by it.

And to quote Forrest Gump..."that's all I have to say about that" :wf:

Salmo
Apr-24-2013, 05:30
I hope it doesn't significantly affect the server performance.



public override void OnAircraftLanded(int missionNumber, string shortName, AiAircraft aircraft)
{
base.OnAircraftCrashLanded(missionNumber, shortName, aircraft);

//--------------------------------------------
// remove aircraft landing in enemy territory
//--------------------------------------------
try
{
if (aircraft.Player(0) != null)
{
if (GamePlay.gpFrontArmy(aircraft.Pos().x, aircraft.Pos().y) != aircraft.Army())
{
List<Player> players = new List<Player>();
players.Add(aircraft.Player(0));
GamePlay.gpHUDLogCenter(players.ToArray(), "{0} has been captured.", new object[] { aircraft.Player(0).Name() }, 10);
aircraft.Destroy();
}
}
}
catch (NullReferenceException n)
{
// don't show null object errors in the server console
}
catch (Exception e)
{
Console.WriteLine("Error: " + e.Message);
}
}

Gromit
Apr-24-2013, 12:04
After reading Bliss's response, I totally understand why scripts or server additions would be undesirable, I live and learn, I also accept the preference for not implementing server rules!

I suppose we have to accept some people have very poor attitudes when it comes to games, just like those that fly through trees to get away or sit in a downed aircraft directing their friends to enemy aircraft!

I consider it lame and utterly pathetic to use glitches to gain advantages, why these people can't just accept they have been beaten is a mystery to me, although I suspect Hubris plays a big part, either way I'm not going to sink to such low standards and I appreciate the genuine flight sim pilots for whom the mission and the dogfight is more important than their ego!

Archie
Apr-24-2013, 14:09
Why on earth would someone deliberately land at an enemy airbase, unless it is a crash landing with a damaged plane??

Dutch
Apr-24-2013, 16:09
Why on earth would someone deliberately land at an enemy airbase, unless it is a crash landing with a damaged plane??

Oh but they do mate, out of sheer devilment. One well known regular on the server only the other day not only landed at Manston, but taxied into a hangar saying 'I'll give you a medal if you find me', over chat. So I dived down and shot at him, attempted to fly through, but crashed into him. That settled his hash. :D

ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Apr-24-2013, 19:21
Can some scripts be executed client side rather than server side, or does the game not have the ability to differentiate?

ATAG_Bliss
Apr-24-2013, 19:36
Can some scripts be executed client side rather than server side, or does the game not have the ability to differentiate?

Not in the online world. That would allow people to cheat etc.,

Offline, you can enable/script anything you want.

Talisman
Apr-25-2013, 15:57
I would rather see de-spawn shortly after landing on all maps if it cured this problem, as I have never understood what is so that good about <RR in its current available form (I am ready to be educated though, LOL (is it helping people with their stats or something?)). I like to land back at the base I took off from, when I can, for more realism/immersion and although I take a fresh plane, I consider it to be the same one after my pilot has had a break for natures call and perhaps a cup of tea or a spot of lunch.
If <RR facilities cheating, I would rather not have it and would not miss it. I would rather not be on the end of bad manners or, at worst, cheating. I have known pilots land at enemy bases without AA and <RR and have been on the end of the annoying tactic of pilots leaving crashed planes on an airfield to draw flack off their team mates or confuse/annoy the enemy whilst taking a break. To suggest we should just put up with it or have to go to the trouble of trying to bomb a downed plane to pieces that is drawing flack on our air field does not seem right to me, if simply doing away with <RR would cure it. I do not need to sit in front of a fuel truck with <RR to enjoy CloD, but enjoyment is turned very much to annoyance, disappointment, disillusionment and frustration when bad manners and/or cheating make fools of those who like to see fair play. Get a bad rep and people will move on or just give up and leave it for a more mature environment without the kids.

Happy landings (at your own airfield),

Talisman

Doc
Apr-25-2013, 16:38
Oh but they do mate, out of sheer devilment. One well known regular on the server only the other day not only landed at Manston, but taxied into a hangar saying 'I'll give you a medal if you find me', over chat. So I dived down and shot at him, attempted to fly through, but crashed into him. That settled his hash. :D

That is the fun this server brings. The wise asses that do this. That is so much fun. Why ban or break it. Just kill him. It's simple.

Dutch
Apr-25-2013, 17:52
That is the fun this server brings. The wise asses that do this. That is so much fun. Why ban or break it. Just kill him. It's simple.

:thumbsup:

ATAG_Ribbs
Apr-25-2013, 19:57
Talisman.. I love <RR!... it brings a lot of immersion in the game for me. I remember one time I was on the receiving end of a 109.. and he managed to put a couple small bullet holes in my right wing. It didnt damage anything, so I could still <RR. I managed to <RR 3 other times with the same plane.. and the same 3 bullet holes I received on the first sorts! I felt like that was my plane.. and the longer I continued, the more I didnt want to not lose it. I feel it adds to the game... I just don't feel like enough people use it. Not to mention the tension and excitement of <rring while enemy aircraft are in the area... I love it!

Talisman
Apr-26-2013, 09:42
That is the fun this server brings. The wise asses that do this. That is so much fun. Why ban or break it. Just kill him. It's simple.

So, if I am reading this correctly, and I stand to be corrected, no maturity and no respect is required or expected on the ATAG server. Even though peoples idea of fun can be somewhat different, we should be content for ATAG to facilitate any persons idea of fun, no matter how disruptive and lacking in regard for others. I seem to remember another "wise person" was repeatedly jumping uninvited into bombers piloted by other people at one stage a while ago; he was having great fun releasing the bombs, in a Blenny I think it was, so the pilot had nothing to hit the target with when he got to France. Such fun!

Talisman

Injerin
Apr-26-2013, 10:34
So, if I am reading this correctly, and I stand to be corrected, no maturity and no respect is required or expected on the ATAG server. Even though peoples idea of fun can be somewhat different, we should be content for ATAG to facilitate any persons idea of fun, no matter how disruptive and lacking in regard for others. I seem to remember another "wise person" was repeatedly jumping uninvited into bombers piloted by other people at one stage a while ago; he was having great fun releasing the bombs, in a Blenny I think it was, so the pilot had nothing to hit the target with when he got to France. Such fun!

Talisman

I remember that guy, the one who used to jump in the bomber seat.. Very annoying fellow he was. Talisman I agree.. it is very annoying when they land at our bases, I think there was another thread on this issue and there were alot of great ideas, I think in the end something will be done about this. My personal suggestion was to have a POW type punishment, such as if player X lands at an enemy base they immediately despawn and have to wait out a timer to return to game (simulating a POW on a small scale). Of course this is what I would like to see. I think there are alot of changes comming on the horizon, we just all need to be a little patient.

Injerin
Apr-26-2013, 10:42
All this talk of server rules, banning players & admin's having to police gameplay entirely misses the point. IL2-1946 server admins implimented rules to get players to play in a certain manner (eg. not vulching bases) because the game had no mechanism to change the gameplay from other than the 'stock' game.

There is an entirely different paradigm for COD, and thus you need to think in a different manner. COD scripts are a powerful mechanism to alter how the game plays. No need for "server rules", or for admins to police gameplay. If you don't like something, then change it using scripts. The scripts are self-enforcing. Luthier himself said that he built a sandbox for others to manipulate to obtain the type of gameplay they wanted.

So how about it, ATAG Admins? We all know that some players are exploiting the game by landing at enemy bases to act as flak-diverters, or to RR at an enemy base. How about implimenting a script that removes the player's plane from the battle if they land in enemy territory? For that matter, with Torian's example of pilot killing a player on the ground but the plane remaining intact & attracting flak, you could even script that a plane is removed from the battle if it's on the ground when the pilot is killed. Let's get a little more innovative guys! The game can be much more that just 'stock' gameplay.

I agree 50% with this, good post SALMO and 50% after reading Bliss's post (replying to this). It looks to me like a give and take at the moment... Now I'm confused lol off to the closet I go!

ATAG_Snapper
Apr-26-2013, 10:43
Hi Talisman,

The person you describe jumping into the bombers uninvited and jettisoning the bombs was a new player and was banned permanently from the ATAG server, this forum, and ATAG's Teamspeak server. I handled this personally with the help and approval of the ATAG admins. A second individual also was allegedly doing this, but I couldn't establish conclusively that he was the one, nonetheless he and I had an exchange of PM's on this and other questionable behaviour that I witnessed myself on the server. In this case I believed the situation resolved and the matter closed.

Regarding the respect and maturity question you pose, as fellow veteran players who know and respect each other highly, I regard your question as rhetorical. Although I consider the landing on enemy airfields as "gamey", it does not break server rules -- which are very few. As someone suggested earlier, grab a bomber (or divert a human-flown bomber flown by a team mate) and bomb the hell out of the offending parked aircraft.