Game play

[Wulf]

Picking up on something Mastiff mentioned the other day, just before his untimely departure, I was just wondering if there isn't something that could be done to encourage the virtual RAF to use all of their available altitude rather than just the first 1000 meters or so. Now I accept this is a somewhat sweeping generalization and some Reds do indeed fly above this altitude but from what I can see this isn't the norm. In fact on many occasions when I've flown recently I haven't seen a single red at altitude - any number of 109s but no reds. And if anything it appears to me that this trend, if in fact it is a trend, is becoming even more pronounced as time goes on. By way of illustration, on the last occasion that I was on (along with another 50 or so people on roughly even teams), I watched a whole flight of Wellingtons being slowly and systematically taken apart at 6K by a couple of 109s, without the intervention of a single red fighter. The Reds, it would seem, were just too tired to climb to altitude. And this abrogation of duty isn't that unusual these days.

I appreciate that you can't force people to play the game a certain way but I do wonder if there aren't perhaps ways to encourage a more expansive and historically accurate type of play. For example, would it be possible (or desirable) to modify the stats board to emphasis kill/death ratios, with players being ranked on this basis - with a top 10 or twenty etc? And perhaps introduce or modify missions to downgraded the role of fighter-bombers and airfield beat-ups and place greater emphasis on bomber escort or interception?

[Dutch]

Well it's just a case of this particular red being totally bloody knackered mate, in truth. The 'red team' have spent two years fighting for decent FMs, flying against the odds, making crappy FMs work through teamwork, communication and dedication, etc etc. Now we have a tolerably level playing field (with some reservations), so all us old fighters can go have a gin and tonic and a figgy duff in the NAAFI.

So, whilst all us regular RAF flyers are having a breather, why not change sides and fly for the RAF yourself, and go and protect those poor old Wellingtons? :thumbsup:

[rollingstoned]

Ive been practicing flying the spit in single player so that i can go over to red in multi, i have a feeling ill do real well having such intimate knowledge of how the blue side operates hehe.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Great post, Wulf, couldn't agree more.

There are some things on the horizon that will naturally encourage the fighting to move higher. Missions in which high-flying AI LW bomber formations are critical for both sides to "win the map". The bombers will be focused on RAF airfields and other vital targets which count towards LW victory. It's incumbent on the RAF to stop them, or lose the use of the targeted airfields and ultimately the map. It's also incumbent upon the LW to ensure these high-flying AI bombers get through and to prevent any Red fighters from stopping them.

I frequently have been flying at 20+ angels over both sides of the Channel and not seen opposing Blue fighters. Frequently, I've known they were up there -- it's just a big map. If the LOD issues get fixed then very likely there will naturally be increased high-altitude encounters. Many times I've been in a position to escort our high-flying AI Blennies and Wellies and you're right -- they almost always get intercepted by at least a pair of 109's. With the current missions the RAF only get 10 minutes warning of an AI Allied bomber flight needing escort, which is only useful if you are aloft in the area already. Hopefully more advance warning can be given in future missions.

There will always be low altitude dogfighting, airfield strafing, low-level human-flown Blenheim escorting, etc. Whatever floats people's boats is fine. Personally, I prefer to scramble at "full buster" to 15+ angels on a vector from Control to intercept and knock down whatever is fast approaching!

:)

[Dutch]

Ok then, what he said....... :weirdo:

:)

[ATAG_Snapper]

:imwithstupid: :-P

[Wulf]

Thanks Snapper. Those all sound to me like well thought out solutions. I look forward to it. Exciting times....





- Wulf thought cloud - (Hmmmm .... crap on a xmas tree, if things keep going along like this, what the hell am I going to have left to bitch about .....hmmmm ...mumble, mumble )

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Picking up on something Mastiff mentioned the other day, just before his untimely departure, I was just wondering if there isn't something that could be done to encourage the virtual RAF to use all of their available altitude rather than just the first 1000 meters or so. Now I accept this is a somewhat sweeping generalization and some Reds do indeed fly above this altitude but from what I can see this isn't the norm. In fact on many occasions when I've flown recently I haven't seen a single red at altitude - any number of 109s but no reds. And if anything it appears to me that this trend, if in fact it is a trend, is becoming even more pronounced as time goes on. By way of illustration, on the last occasion that I was on (along with another 50 or so people on roughly even teams), I watched a whole flight of Wellingtons being slowly and systematically taken apart at 6K by a couple of 109s, without the intervention of a single red fighter. The Reds, it would seem, were just too tired to climb to altitude. And this abrogation of duty isn't that unusual these days.?

Hey Wulf,

Most red flyers never get the chance to get high before getting into combat. I would say that around 80% of reds spawn at Manston, Hawkinge or Lympne.

Spawn at Hawkinge, or Lympne and, 9 times out of 10 you will be in the action within 2 minutes. No point in climbing up slowly through a fight, that's just asking for trouble.
Spawn at Manston, and 3 times out of 10 you will be in the action within 2 minutes, and 7 times out of ten you will be called to help your mates at Hawkinge or Dover anyways.

Just two blue 109s can tie up 10 red fighters at low altitude. We've all seen the conga lines of 4 or 5 spitfires chasing a 109 on the deck at Hawkinge. Even after the 109 is shot down those spitfires will mill around for 5 minutes looking at each other and the remaining flak trying to work out if it is shooting at new 109s, the carcass of the dead one still sitting on the water, or just redundant puffs still floating about. By the time these defending aircraft have decided that it's time to climb up, the next 109 has arrived, and it's back to chasing him along the deck, flat out at <1,000ft.

It takes a good few minutes to climb to 20,000ft*. When the server is busy, chances are high that you will get dragged into a fight long before you get to 20,000ft.

Now, there is a way to ensure that red fighters do get up to altitude more often... this happens when the red guys fly over to France and harass the blue bases. When this happens (rarely) you get a reverse of the current situation. The red pilots have clear airspace over the English side of the channel to climb up to altitude, and the blue guys are all tied up down low fighting.

So, far from dereliction of duty [them's fighting words], I think the phenomena of "not many reds at 20,000ft" has more to do with the mechanics of how sand-box servers play out.

* = to escort wellington's at 20,000ft, the spitfires need to be at 24,000ft+, enough height to ensure they can boom and zoom and attacking 109s. No point defending bombers, if you cant catch the threats. So that means spending 15 minutes climbing to that altitude. Try taking off from Masnton and climbing up to escort bombers on a busy server sometime. 70% of the time your mission will be over before you even find the bombers.

Don't forget that Red fighters only have 14 seconds of ammo too. They can't really hang around long once the fight has started. If the bombers are intercepted by 109s close to the English coast (no surprise, they spawn in the same place every damned time) then any escorting red aircraft will be out of the fight within 3 or 4 minutes. If they do manage to knock down the 109s they'll need to think about RTB for more ammo, if they don't knock down the 109s, the 6 pathetic Wellingtons will be dead already.

The above is not to say that red escort CANNOT be provided, it's just that the logistical and tactical reasons for doing so are just not in abundance.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hahaha! I cracked up reading your post, Phil. Yep, been there and done that -- too many times to count. And still do if I feel like a good dust up. LOL

With the latest TF patch(es) with the climb bugs worked out of the Merlins, I find myself more often spawning in an inland airfield. Having to fly the extra miles means I can get up to contrail altitudes unmolested -- but it's lonely up there. :ind: Too often on Teamspeak you hear team mates calling for help low over the airfields, or see on chat the server messages announcing that our convoys are getting beaten up. It takes a heart of ice to disregard these inputs to carry on upwards and outwards to protect some robo-bombers. LOL

Of late I find myself very high over the French coast. I sometimes attack bombers as they appear over Calais - Oye Plage, but this is frequently unproductive as their deadeye AI gunners pick me off with the Golden BB as I dive at 350 mph in a quartering attack. More often I stay high, just under contrail height and up sun in hopes that a 109 or two show up as escort. It gets interesting when the cagier 109's anticipate my rocket scientist plan and they themselves enter the scene at co-alt -- likewise just below the contrail level. More than once I've scampered for home in a steep dive when the odds looked really, really bad. Lone wolfing is dangerous!

I know Salmo (and others) are working on missions designed to add more variety and challenge, plus get the fight moved higher. As Wulf says, exciting times.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Too often on Teamspeak you hear team mates calling for help low over the airfields, or see on chat the server messages announcing that our convoys are getting beaten up. It takes a heart of ice to disregard these inputs to carry on upwards and outwards to protect some robo-bombers. LOL
.

This is an important point. I feel like a right cold bas***d climbing up to 25,000ft whilst my buddies are crying out for help down below. By the time I get to 15,000ft I'm perfectly placed to dive on the low flying, but still very fast, 109s which are low over the coast.

Why spend another 5 minutes putting myself in a potentially disadvantageous position (slow, half way across the channel and behind some AI bombers), when I have a perfect advantage already over the 109s that are almost certainly just below me?

[No.54 Ghost (KL-G)]

like someone els mentioned, the LOD makes it hard too spot aircraft.
i have a really hard time seeing any aircraft below me due too the water/terrain.
then you have the spitfire wings that are really nice to look at but they block out a lot of your vision.
and from what i have experienced the 109 have a way bigger advantage at alts above 10 000 feet, so why give em that?
at 20 000 feet i feel like a sitting duck, cant get the speed up fast enough and if i get attacked im forced to either turn or dive.
if i turn i will loose all the speed, and if im just going to dive away every time i spot a 109 up there.... why be up there at all??
i prefer too fight where i have the advantage and that is certainly not up there.

when the RED objective is too hunt and kill bombers, then players will probably go up there but until that happens ill just go up there when im bored and need to find something.... too dive away from.

[Roblex]

Don't forget that Red fighters only have 14 seconds of ammo too. .

This is the important point.

You spend 20-30 minutes climbing to altitude and finding a target, use up your ammo within a few minutes then have to RTB to re-arm. How many people are going to take-off and do it all again more than once? A 109 can stooge around at 20K, dive on a target and be up at 20K again while the low spit is still wondering what hit him then repeat the exercise 10 more times before he runs out of ammo.

My squad almost always starts squad-night (and frequently non squad-nights if two or three are online together) with a climb to 20K and either a patrol from Manston to Dungeness looking for predatory 109s or a trip to Calais to see if we can find some bombers but five minutes after finding a few targets we are all RTBing to re-arm and/or lick our wounds. Don't get me wrong, we enjoy the long high sortie, but when it comes to suggestions about what to do next most people then seem to favour something a little more immediate to use up he little time they have remaining. We don't usually go for the low level death-match over Hawkinge but capping a target at mid level or a low level trip to France with or without blenheims tends to win the vote (and don't argue the blenheims should be high, it is just not practical)

In my view the best answer is the one given earlier, missions that rely on high alt bombers to close the map and a greater need to hunt or defend the bombers. Happily these missions are on the way.

[AKA_Knutsac]

Most AKA live above 20k, unless we're attempting to defend a ground target (which is largly futile because of hit-and-run jabo 109s)(and low-level furballs ain't usually healthy). I seem to encounter about an equal number of reds and blues at altitude, but like other aspects of the server, the proportions shift throughout the day.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[ATAG_Snapper]

The AKA_ boys tear into AI formations like it's an art form. It's fun to watch -- which I've done a few times. :salute:

[AKA_Knutsac]

The AKA_ boys tear into AI formations like it's an art form. It's fun to watch -- which I've done a few times. :salute:

For me and the rest of AKA, thanks for the compliment. Turkey shoots are ok, but it's especially fun to joust with the Hun escort when present (those 109Ns can be a bear).

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[Injerin]

like someone els mentioned, the LOD makes it hard too spot aircraft.
i have a really hard time seeing any aircraft below me due too the water/terrain.
then you have the spitfire wings that are really nice to look at but they block out a lot of your vision.
and from what i have experienced the 109 have a way bigger advantage at alts above 10 000 feet, so why give em that?
at 20 000 feet i feel like a sitting duck, cant get the speed up fast enough and if i get attacked im forced to either turn or dive.
if i turn i will loose all the speed, and if im just going to dive away every time i spot a 109 up there.... why be up there at all??
i prefer too fight where i have the advantage and that is certainly not up there.

when the RED objective is too hunt and kill bombers, then players will probably go up there but until that happens ill just go up there when im bored and need to find something.... too dive away from.

Totally agree, My experience at high alt with the 109 is bad. I can't catch them in a climb 95% of the time or in a dive, and spending 10-30 min chasing one just to lose air speed (mostly in a climb) is pointless. I would rather fight within 0-6000 feet waiting for them to dive on me and play the turning game bleeding them off putting some advantage in my corner. I hate flying against the E4's its just a hammerhead fest on spits and it makes me feel like a dog chasing my tail.

[BKellem]

I have enjoyed reading all of this. Where some of you like to take-off from, your patrol routes, and the disadvantages of the Spitfire. This information should come in handy. :D

[Injerin]

SPY :recon: up there ^

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Where some of you like to take-off from, your patrol routes, and the disadvantages of the Spitfire. This information should come in handy. :D

None of the above should be unknown to 109 pilots.
It's not a coincidence that scores of 109s cross the channel at 8,000-15,000ft and make fast zoom and boom dives on the Hawkinge/ Dover area. They're going after the scores of spitfires that mill about at 2,000-6,000ft in the same location.

The one thing that will put a spanner in the above repetitious activity is new/ changed spawn locations.

Jedi mind trick: I foresee a serious lack of air-quake over Hawkinge, if the nearest spawn is Ford.

[Wulf]

OMG!!! I've seldom heard expressions of such abject defeatism! There "isn't enough ammo, I can't dive fast enough, I can never catch the 109s, I've got a sore knee and a letter from me Mum" etc etc" This is just downright pathetic!

There's little doubt the 109 N is the best high alt fighter in the game, however, the difference in performance between the N and the Mk 2a is still fairly small in my experience. I don't know what it is about some red players that's led them to believe they've got some sort of God given right to have a higher speed, greater climb and faster dive than the enemy; in all circumstances. Instead of trying to tackle 109s from the ground up, as so many red pilots seem to do, perhaps you should give it a try from the top down. Get some serious altitude over England and then get out over the Channel or across to France and try and kill the Ns as they come up. Have the smarts to know that any fighter that's above you with a clear energy advantage should be left well alone - if that's at all possible. And for God's sake, if you're at altitude and end up in a prolonged fight with an N and things are starting to go co-E, wait for a merge and then head for the weeds. Most 109 guys, having struggled for ten minutes or so to get up to altitude, won't want to chase you all the way down to the deck for some 50/50 outcome. Once you've extended out of danger, climb back up to altitude again. Win or lose, a good fight at altitude is always going to be extremely satisfying.

[ATAG_Snapper]

OK, folks, let's not get into a "Red vs Blue" thing here.

[Wulf]

OK, on reflection, that was a little intemperate on my part but I did say "some" and that's what I meant.

[ATAG_Snapper]

No worries, mate. :)

You gave some great advice. :D

[No.54 Ghost (KL-G)]

OMG!!! I've seldom heard expressions of such abject defeatism! There "isn't enough ammo, I can't dive fast enough, I can never catch the 109s, I've got a sore knee and a letter from me Mum" etc etc" This is just downright pathetic!

There's little doubt the 109 N is the best high alt fighter in the game, however, the difference in performance between the N and the Mk 2a is still fairly small in my experience. I don't know what it is about some red players that's led them to believe they've got some sort of God given right to have a higher speed, greater climb and faster dive than the enemy; in all circumstances. Instead of trying to tackle 109s from the ground up, as so many red pilots seem to do, perhaps you should give it a try from the top down. Get some serious altitude over England and then get out over the Channel or across to France and try and kill the Ns as they come up. Have the smarts to know that any fighter that's above you with a clear energy advantage should be left well alone - if that's at all possible. And for God's sake, if you're at altitude and end up in a prolonged fight with an N and things are starting to go co-E, wait for a merge and then head for the weeds. Most 109 guys, having struggled for ten minutes or so to get up to altitude, won't want to chase you all the way down to the deck for some 50/50 outcome. Once you've extended out of danger, climb back up to altitude again. Win or lose, a good fight at altitude is always going to be extremely satisfying.

i think you missed the point a little bit.
some of us have our reason not to get up to high. it depends on what you fly, what your graphic setting are, how experienced you are and so on.
as i said, why fight where the enemy has the upper hand.
the 2a might stand a chance at altitude but it lacks power down low.
the 1a 100 Oct lacks power at altitude but is a real threat down low.

from my experience fights at altitude always goes the same way. either the 109 climb to safety or the spit dives to safety.
if the roles are reversed, one usually gets shot down.

like i mentioned before, one way to get the RAF up high is to make the bombers an objective and maybe have them go further in over england.

[Roblex]

Most 109 guys, having struggled for ten minutes or so to get up to altitude, won't want to chase you all the way down to the deck for some 50/50 outcome

That is where I would disagree. It is silly to complain that the reds are staying low when the reason they do is that there are so many targets down low. Firstly most of the bombers stay low and the reds need to also be low in order to see them. Secondly the 109s that come over looking for low Spits then come down and burn off their E and become a lot easier to tackle. This includes the 109s that arrived at 20K. Sure, initially the more intelligent ones will swoop down and make a single pass and climb up again but after doing this two or three times the majority will succumb to the temptation to turn after a target and blow their E. A 109 down low without the energy to climb again is easy meat even for a hurricane.

So to summarise:-

Staying low allows you to defend the mission targets, there are plenty of targets to kill within a few minutes of take-off and the 109s are very much easier to kill and cannot escape.

Staying high leaves your mission targets undefended, it takes a long time to find a fight, the 109s are harder to kill and if you do get the best of one he will just dive away.

Which is the intelligent action for a Red pilot? Abandon your mission targets and play to the 109s strengths or defend your mission targets and nullify the 109s strengths?

Which is the intelligent action for a Blue pilot? Try to talk the reds into playing to your strengths :-P


Of course if the main threat to the Red targets was high altitude blue bombers then the reds would fly higher and the blues would be with the bombers so there would be little reason for any red pilots to hang around low over Hawkinge (assuming the blues stop vulching it) :D

[Wulf]

Which is the intelligent action for a Blue pilot? Try to talk the reds into playing to your strengths :-P



Had my old sainted Mother taken a jagged shard of glass and, holding it high above my head, then thrust it repeatedly into my heart, I still couldn't feel more hurt and disappointed than I do right now. Wow .. that someone might consider, even for a second, that I of all people, would attempt to lure red players up to altitude simply to kill them. Well, it just makes me feel shocked and dirty...:D.......

[Injerin]

OMG!!! I've seldom heard expressions of such abject defeatism! There "isn't enough ammo, I can't dive fast enough, I can never catch the 109s, I've got a sore knee and a letter from me Mum" etc etc" This is just downright pathetic!

There's little doubt the 109 N is the best high alt fighter in the game, however, the difference in performance between the N and the Mk 2a is still fairly small in my experience. I don't know what it is about some red players that's led them to believe they've got some sort of God given right to have a higher speed, greater climb and faster dive than the enemy; in all circumstances. Instead of trying to tackle 109s from the ground up, as so many red pilots seem to do, perhaps you should give it a try from the top down. Get some serious altitude over England and then get out over the Channel or across to France and try and kill the Ns as they come up. Have the smarts to know that any fighter that's above you with a clear energy advantage should be left well alone - if that's at all possible. And for God's sake, if you're at altitude and end up in a prolonged fight with an N and things are starting to go co-E, wait for a merge and then head for the weeds. Most 109 guys, having struggled for ten minutes or so to get up to altitude, won't want to chase you all the way down to the deck for some 50/50 outcome. Once you've extended out of danger, climb back up to altitude again. Win or lose, a good fight at altitude is always going to be extremely satisfying.



??????????????????????????????????????????????? I laughed at most of this post, but this one made me pee a little :)

[LG1.Farber]

OMG!!! I've seldom heard expressions of such abject defeatism! There "isn't enough ammo, I can't dive fast enough, I can never catch the 109s, I've got a sore knee and a letter from me Mum" etc etc" This is just downright pathetic!

There's little doubt the 109 N is the best high alt fighter in the game, however, the difference in performance between the N and the Mk 2a is still fairly small in my experience. I don't know what it is about some red players that's led them to believe they've got some sort of God given right to have a higher speed, greater climb and faster dive than the enemy; in all circumstances. Instead of trying to tackle 109s from the ground up, as so many red pilots seem to do, perhaps you should give it a try from the top down. Get some serious altitude over England and then get out over the Channel or across to France and try and kill the Ns as they come up. Have the smarts to know that any fighter that's above you with a clear energy advantage should be left well alone - if that's at all possible. And for God's sake, if you're at altitude and end up in a prolonged fight with an N and things are starting to go co-E, wait for a merge and then head for the weeds. Most 109 guys, having struggled for ten minutes or so to get up to altitude, won't want to chase you all the way down to the deck for some 50/50 outcome. Once you've extended out of danger, climb back up to altitude again. Win or lose, a good fight at altitude is always going to be extremely satisfying.

DING DING DING

JACKPOT!


However i would like to add this is not ALL reds.... just the ones that cry allot.

[ATAG_Snapper]

OK, I asked that this not turn into a Red vs Blue thing. Obviously some here, like you, Farber, choose to thumb your nose at this request and decide to play the troll here.

This thread is closed.