Spitfires with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel missing from map, again!

[Talisman]

Just left the ATAG standard server after flying a map with a Battle of Britain time line but with no Spitfire available with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel. The Hurricane was available with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel but not the Spit? Is this an oversight or a trend? There were Me 109 E-3 available but no Spit with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel. Spits with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel (the CloD designated Spit 1a 100 Octane) took part in the Dunkirk operation before the Battle of Britain and were used extensively during the Battle of Britain, so please provide the historical accurate Spit for all applicable maps on the ATAG servers. All front line RAF fighter aircraft were fitted with the Rotol prop for the Battle of Britain, so no props other than Rotol should be flown on the Hurricane and Spitfire on the front line if we are to have historical balance and accuracy. Why does this need to be pointed out on a regular basis to map makers who seem to consistently get it wrong?

[Dutch]

Which mission was it, Talisman me ole chum?

[Salmo]

.... Is this an oversight or a trend? .... so please provide the historical accurate Spit for all applicable maps on the ATAG servers. ..... Why does this need to be pointed out on a regular basis to map makers who seem to consistently get it wrong?

1. Because battle-making is a complicated process.
2. Because not all mission-makers want historical accuracy.
3. Because mission-builders have decided to have non-historical planesets for various reasons.
4. Because mission-makers are trying to achieve mission outcomes that are not always consistent with what YOU want.

Given that building a mission involves tens (sometimes hundreds) of hours of volunteer work, if you don't like the mission(s) you get, then you have two choices.

1. Don't fly the mission.
2. Build your own mission/battle & submit it to ATAG for inclusion on their server.

Constructive comment & critique is always welcome, but complaining that you didn't get what YOU want just pisses people off!

[ATAG_Torian]

Well for what it's worth I really enjoy this mission. The 2 speed props are a challenge but then limiting the Luftwaffe to E1s & E3s is a challenge for them to manage their engines properly too. Having the inland targets means Luftwaffe pilots really need to fly bombers or 110s to take the target out which means they must elude defenders. Luftwaffe usually wins as it is very difficult to defend such widely spaced targets but then having flown 110s on this map it is a real buzz to get that far and take out the target and then make it home.
Take home message is map builders try different configurations that create different challenges. Hard to please all the people all the time but, as Salmo has said, if it's not for u then do something else until the next rotation.
Maybe some1 could build a Battle of France map where British armor concentrations/columns are the targets, no Rotol Brit fighters, no 109 bombers, and no E4s. This may be more historical. British losses would be high (Britain lost over 500 planes defending France) but Luftwaffe would have to use Stukas, 110s or bombers to achieve objectives. Action would be mainly down low so Brit fighters would have a chance. Anyway, just a thought.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Which mission was it, Talisman me ole chum?

I think it was on ACG server actually?
Although I confess I'm not 100% sure, it might have been ATAG. I was flying with Talisman at the time he noticed this.

[Talisman]

Which mission was it, Talisman me ole chum?

Sorry Dutch but I looked at the brief to find out and there was no map name posted that I could see; it was running at the time of my first post and appeared as a standard BoB map with the lines down the middle of the English Channel.

[Talisman]

1. Because battle-making is a complicated process.
2. Because not all mission-makers want historical accuracy.
3. Because mission-builders have decided to have non-historical planesets for various reasons.
4. Because mission-makers are trying to achieve mission outcomes that are not always consistent with what YOU want.

Given that building a mission involves tens (sometimes hundreds) of hours of volunteer work, if you don't like the mission(s) you get, then you have two choices.

1. Don't fly the mission.
2. Build your own mission/battle & submit it to ATAG for inclusion on their server.

Constructive comment & critique is always welcome, but complaining that you didn't get what YOU want just pisses people off!

Salmo,

Thank you for your pithy response. However, surely complaints and misunderstandings could be avoided if maps on a historical combat flight sim depicting historical times/operations provided the available aircraft types that took part, no more no less, providing the aircraft modelling is good enough. For example, if aircraft modelling is not a problem and technologically advanced aircraft from a later time are added to a historical mission then bias is introduced and complaints are likely. Similarly, if aircraft of the time and operation depicted are available but not included, bias can appear to raise its head again. Of course, if a map is depicted clearly up front as a made up fantasy then players will know to expect a mission that is not historical in terms of plane set and can make their choice based on 'what it says on the tin'.

I find it interesting that you talk about making maps and deciding to have non-historical plane sets for "various reasons" and trying to "achieve mission outcomes". I would have thought that mission outcomes should be down to the performance of the red or blue teams taking part, given either a non-historic mission level playing field for both sides, or on the other hand an historic mission with advantages to the teams as appropriate in line with any historic technical advantages and the prevailing circumstances of the time. Of course, there is also the option for a map maker to provide a non-historical mission without a level playing field, that gives the advantage to one of the teams, for various reasons, to achieve a mission outcome I suppose.

I must say that I do agree with you that map battle-making is a complicated process. Indeed, I admire and I am grateful to those that do it well. People contribute to this flight sim community in many different ways, for which we should all be grateful and we certainly need good map makers, amongst many other things too. But I am sure that you can see that map makers can gain a great deal of influence through their maps, as well as well earned praise and respect, so we do rely on those that make them to have the best interest of the community at heart.

Finally, rest assured that I do understand the concept of choice and do not need you to explain the choices I am able to make.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Dutch]

Sorry Dutch but I looked at the brief to find out and there was no map name posted that I could see; it was running at the time of my first post and appeared as a standard BoB map with the lines down the middle of the English Channel.

Ok mate. :thumbsup:

The only reason i asked is that some missions do have 'upgrades' available as part of gameplay, which as you rightly point out may not be 'historical' as such. But they do add an interesting gameplay element. I suppose both history and gameplay are important considerations for our (greatly appreciated) map making chums, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Personally I'd like to see a date stamp on all missions, with a/c allocated according to historical accuracy and limits on numbers of certain marks of aircraft, but the amount of 'destructive criticism' which would ensue I'd rather not think about. :D

Also, historical accuracy entails a great deal of research, with results that will always be argued about interminably. So live and let live I say, and I doff my cap to the mission builders with grateful thanks, even though I might not agree with some aspects of their missions (I hate that bloody E4/N, all 15 of 'em, oh sorry, 35 if you count E4B/Ns, according to our mate wiki that is :D ).

[Furious]

all 15 of 'em, oh sorry, 35 if you count E4B/Ns, according to our mate wiki that is ).


Lol you're forgetting about the "field mods", roflmao

[Gromit]

when you look at the overall number of 109's deployed in the BoB and the number of N deployed, field mod or no they make up a tiny minority, yet on the server the N is the majority aircraft , that really needs addressing, along with the number of Spit 11a, in my opinion, and mine alone I suggest these aircraft should be seriously limited, they create the impression amongst players you have to have the 11a or N to be able to compete, garbage of course as some of us compete in Hurricanes Me110's etc, but as long as that impression exists the game will always decend into a uberplane fight, not very historical by any stretch of the imagination!

[Roblex]

when you look at the overall number of 109's deployed in the BoB and the number of N deployed, field mod or no they make up a tiny minority, yet on the server the N is the majority aircraft , that really needs addressing, along with the number of Spit 11a, in my opinion, and mine alone I suggest these aircraft should be seriously limited, they create the impression amongst players you have to have the 11a or N to be able to compete, garbage of course as some of us compete in Hurricanes Me110's etc, but as long as that impression exists the game will always decend into a uberplane fight, not very historical by any stretch of the imagination!

It's a bit like having a naval sim where 15 Bismarks fight against 15 HMS Vanguards or Illustriouses. :-)

[Dutch]

It's a bit like having a naval sim where 15 Bismarks fight against 15 HMS Vanguards or Illustriouses. :-)

Or 15 HMS Hoods, come to that. :D

[Talisman]

Which mission was it, Talisman me ole chum?

Ok Dutch, just seen the mission again but I still can't see a map name. It is the mission map were one of the targets for red to protect from blue is the bomber base at Redhill. For some reason there are no Spits with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel (i.e. the CloD designated 1a 100 Octane), yet there are Hurricanes with the Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel and Me 109 E versions up to and including the E-3/B. Historically, why the missing Spit is not available is not obvious, unless one is to jump to conclusions concerning the outcomes the map maker may be intending.

Talisman

[Dutch]

Ok Dutch, just seen the mission again but I still can't see a map name. It is the mission map were one of the targets for red to protect from blue is the bomber base at Redhill. For some reason there are no Spits with Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel (i.e. the CloD designated 1a 100 Octane), yet there are Hurricanes with the Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel and Me 109 E versions up to and including the E-3/B. Historically, why the missing Spit is not available is not obvious, unless one is to jump to conclusions concerning the outcomes the map maker may be intending.

Talisman

Yup, I was on it myself the other day and thought 'ah, this is the one...'. I have to confess that I've not flown that one much, and I'm unaware who designed the mission, or if there are any 'gameplay upgrades'. Nor was I on long enough to find out. It does seem a little peculiar, for sure, and the server wasn't very busy at all. Strangely, those who were joining were all joining red, then seemingly leaving. But maybe this was a one-off. Hmmmm...........

Edit: It would seem on the surface to be a simple equalisation of aircraft marks. i.e. No E4/N=No SpitII, No E4=No SpitIa 100oct. I'd be happy to be contradicted by the mission builder though.

[Catseye]

Strangely, those who were joining were all joining red, then seemingly leaving. But maybe this was a one-off. Hmmmm...........


Hi Dutch,
Yes, I've seen this several times.
Blue take 109's.
No one seems to go for the targets and it is sparsly populated with players.

Red pilots then leave.

IMHO, it is not a very good map in the rotation. Doesn't seem to appeal to the majority that show up.

Cheers,
Cats . . .

[Dutch]

Hi Dutch,
Yes, I've seen this several times.
Blue take 109's.
No one seems to go for the targets and it is sparsly populated with players.

Red pilots then leave.

IMHO, it is not a very good map in the rotation. Doesn't seem to appeal to the majority that show up.

Cheers,
Cats . . .

Or maybe a simple solution would be to add in the Spit Ia 100oct, as Talisman, and the History books, suggest. :D

[Talisman]

Or maybe a simple solution would be to add in the Spit Ia 100oct, as Talisman, and the History books, suggest. :D

It seems strange that most common front line Spitfire type of the time is missing from this map and that there would appear to be no explanation for this.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Yup, I was on it myself the other day and thought 'ah, this is the one...'. .

I believe it is the map with the Lewes Train Station target.
There is no historical reason not to have the Rotol Spitfires, if there are Rotol Hurricanes.

If this is a case of the map maker going for their own interpretation of "balance" then I can see why people would be skeptical of the motives involved.

[Dutch]

It seems strange that most common front line Spitfire type of the time is missing from this map and that there would appear to be no explanation for this.


I believe it is the map with the Lewes Train Station target.
There is no historical reason not to have the Rotol Spitfires, if there are Rotol Hurricanes.

If this is a case of the map maker going for their own interpretation of "balance" then I can see why people would be skeptical of the motives involved.

I completely agree with both of you. If it is a case of an attempted 'balance' as in my edit to my post above, this together with the infinite number of E4/Ns available on other maps, does indeed point to the 'trend' Talisman suggests.

Having said that, I wouldn't like to see this mission taken out of rotation, there are some really nice touches in there, such as high level LW bombers carpet bombing Hawkinge, which I witnessed at fairly close quarters. Very impressive and convincing. We just need the Ia 100oct putting in. :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Bliss]

We just need the Ia 100oct putting in. :thumbsup:

Done!

Completely my fault. It was supposed to be in there, but obviously something I missed. Sorry about that.

[Royraiden]

when you look at the overall number of 109's deployed in the BoB and the number of N deployed, field mod or no they make up a tiny minority, yet on the server the N is the majority aircraft , that really needs addressing, along with the number of Spit 11a, in my opinion, and mine alone I suggest these aircraft should be seriously limited, they create the impression amongst players you have to have the 11a or N to be able to compete, garbage of course as some of us compete in Hurricanes Me110's etc, but as long as that impression exists the game will always decend into a uberplane fight, not very historical by any stretch of the imagination!

I honestly fly it because everybody else does, but I seriously like the early 109s a lot, especially the E1 because of the 4 machine guns.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Done!

Completely my fault. It was supposed to be in there, but obviously something I missed. Sorry about that.

Cheers Bliss, you've prevented the further fermenting of our suspicious minds ;)

[Talisman]

Done!

Completely my fault. It was supposed to be in there, but obviously something I missed. Sorry about that.

Thank you Bliss.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Dutch]

Done!

Completely my fault. It was supposed to be in there, but obviously something I missed. Sorry about that.

Cool. Thanks Mate. :)

[Foul Ole Ron]

Having said that, I wouldn't like to see this mission taken out of rotation, there are some really nice touches in there, such as high level LW bombers carpet bombing Hawkinge, which I witnessed at fairly close quarters. Very impressive and convincing.

Agreed - as somebody who mostly flies Hurricanes this is one of the more enjoyable maps as planes are more competitive across the board. On this map you'll see more people flying Hurricanes, more 110s, more player bombers like Stukas, etc. When the Spit IIa / E4/N are totally predominant you see far less Hurricanes and virtually no 110s / Stukas. These early war maps throw up far more variety and make a nice change.

[Osprey]

You should jump in with us Ron, you'll see more Hurricanes than you can shake a stick at :salute: