Wing loadings and wings ripping off the Bf110

[heinkill]

I am having the same problem with the Bf110 that was seen with the BR20...wings ripping off very easily during dogfights when high G maneouvering, wings ripping off if I jink during level bombing...anything at high speed seems to rip the wings off.

Have others been flying the Bf110?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I am having the same problem with the Bf110 that was seen with the BR20...wings ripping off very easily during dogfights when high G maneouvering, wings ripping off if I jink during level bombing...anything at high speed seems to rip the wings off.

Have others been flying the Bf110?

We will be adjusting the responsiveness of the 110's controls at high speed in the upcoming release.

However:

The Bf110 is a different aircraft comparative to the single seater fighters, it does not have the same capability to maneuver at hi G.

It's a combination of its weight and its structural strength. It was not built to the same G standards.

The TF team has looked at this issue and we believe the structural G modelling is correct as it stands.

Players should exercise caution when maneuvering at high speeds.

[heinkill]

Understood. To me, the situation is entirely comparable to the BR20. As it stands, at anything above 400km/h the wings rip off with the slightest back pressure on the stick, making it impossible to dogfight in at anything except sea level. I'd check with John Vasco on this, as he is the ultimate arbiter for all things Zerstorer. I read his book 'Bombsights over England' and there was nothing about structural problems with the 110 causing wings to rip off willy nilly, though of course dampening the controls will help this. Unfortunately I can't do this with my old joystick. He hangs out at the WWII Axis History forums and is good at answering queries.

It is unfortunate because with the new high alt capability in the mod, I like playing high alt missions, but in the 110 in a dive it is too easy to go over 400 km/h and then any attempt to bank and turn, or pull out of the dive, rips the wings off. This is supposed to be flown as a boom n zoom fighter (without much zoom, you need the boom), but the 'boom' shouldn't be the wings coming off!

I know the Bf110 was a heavy fighter, but not that heavy! :P

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

The pilot advisory lists 700 kph as max speed for the 110. (translated manuals list 650 kph)

At 7500 meters, 400 kph Indicated Airspeed is equivalent to 600 kph True Airspeed.

That is a margin of 100 kph, and when you add in G forces as you maneuver, you very quickly reach the limits of the aircraft frame.

As I mentioned, we will be adjusting elevator responsiveness for all aircraft in Release 2. As it stands now, all aircraft are currently too responsive at higher speeds, ie. you can generate more 'G' than historical.

When these parameters are revised, there will be less chance of structural damage occurring, but players will still need to be careful.

[9./JG52 Lopp]

Heinkill I feel your pain, but you're fighting a losing battle here. They buy there ink by the barrel!

[Mattias]

Heinkill I feel your pain, but you're fighting a losing battle here. They buy there ink by the barrel!

:salute:

Well, that's a big compliment in my book that you think the responses to questions asked to TF are so many and extensive that "ink by the barrel" is needed :D

If you read Buzzsaws posts instead of counting the words it's evident no one is loosing any battle here :thumbsup:

Cheers/m

[Kallisto]

i was really shocked to see that the structural integrity was massive attenuated
we also have the same issue with the structural integrity in IL-2 1946 since 4.10 or 4.11

it would be really great if TF and TD to add a switch in the difficulties to choose between the original
structural integrity and the new structural integrity

btw TF make a really great job
if i see the whole features fixes that TF makes for clod
then i ask me what the hell have 1c done all the time

[heinkill]

Salute

The pilot advisory lists 700 kph as max speed for the 110. (translated manuals list 650 kph)

At 7500 meters, 400 kph Indicated Airspeed is equivalent to 600 kph True Airspeed.

That is a margin of 100 kph, and when you add in G forces as you maneuver, you very quickly reach the limits of the aircraft frame.

As I mentioned, we will be adjusting elevator responsiveness for all aircraft in Release 2. As it stands now, all aircraft are currently too responsive at higher speeds, ie. you can generate more 'G' than historical.

When these parameters are revised, there will be less chance of structural damage occurring, but players will still need to be careful.

Adjusting elevator responsiveness will need to be done very carefully so you still preserve the integrity of the fighter characteristics of the Bf110, but I trust that you will give it your usual attention to detail so that historical roll and pitch rates are preserved.

The experience of flying the Bf110 at high alt in the TF mod as it is today is so frustrating I gave up. Luckily, it seems, I am one of the only ones trying to do it!

H

[nonwonderdog]

Salute

The pilot advisory lists 700 kph as max speed for the 110. (translated manuals list 650 kph)

At 7500 meters, 400 kph Indicated Airspeed is equivalent to 600 kph True Airspeed.

That is a margin of 100 kph, and when you add in G forces as you maneuver, you very quickly reach the limits of the aircraft frame.

What? No!

Vne is given in IAS, not TAS. The airframe doesn't care about TAS.

There are six speeds you can talk about:
IAS - indicated airspeed is what's on the dial. This depends on impact pressure, and the physical mounting of the instrument.
CAS - real airspeed indicators are influenced by the airflow of the stuff around them and angle-of-attack. In straight-and-level flight there's a one-to-one correspondence between IAS and CAS for each flap and gear configuration.
EAS - equivalent airspeed is CAS corrected for the compressibility of the air in the pitot tube. It's basically the same as CAS for WWII fighters, but this is the most important engineering airspeed.
TAS - true airspeed is the speed of the aircraft through the surrounding air, or EAS corrected for density. But since lift doesn't come from hitting individual air molecules, this speed tells you nothing about how the aircraft will fly on its own.
GS - ground speed is true airspeed plus wind. This is the most important speed for navigation.
M - mach number is the ratio of TAS to the local speed of sound (which is lower at lower temperatures). This is very important once it gets above 0.85 or so, but it doesn't really make much difference below transonic speed.

As long as the equivalent airspeed is the same and the Mach number is low enough, the aircraft doesn't know or care how high it's flying. It will behave exactly the same, since the pressure effects on the pitot tube due to altitude are the same as the pressure effects on the rest of the aircraft. EAS is essentially the same as CAS except at high mach numbers, so even though an SR-71 has an EAS display in the cockpit it makes no difference for WWII planes. Basically every prop plane has the V-speeds written in CAS, and the difference between CAS and IAS is generally not more than 10 kph or so at the extremes.

To illustrate: Assuming the position error is negligable, at 400 kph IAS and 7500 m the EAS is about 393 kph. That gives you a 307 kph margin to a 700 kph Vne, but at 7500 m your 700 kph Vne would be encountered at closer to 740 kph IAS. Of course, you'd probably hit a Mach limit before that, since that 740 kph would be something like 0.93 Mach.

[Kodoss]

@nonwonderdog,

va = 700 km/h is max allowed dive speed (indicated). See Team fusion wiki (http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=hbf110c).

For the calculation of the load factor you have to use the max allowed horizontal flight.
Bf 110 D-0: vh= 470km/h at ground level
Bf 110 E-1N: vh= 480km/h at ground level

For comparision the Ju 88 is calculatetd for H 3:
Gmax = 10800 kg
max vB = 700 km/h (max. gliding flight speed)
biggest allowed load factor: At flare out from a dive ns=5,5 by 40% burned fuel, mostly taken from the fuselage tank (Ruestzustand 2) (2900L*0,6=1740L >> G = 10000 kg)

calculation for Beanspruchungsgr. 2:
nTr=1,8+1000/(Gmax+1500); but >= nTr(115) with G=Gmax
calculation for Beanspruchungsgr. 3:
nTr=2+2000/(Gmax+2000); but >= nTr(115) with G=Gmax
calculation for Beanspruchungsgr. 4:
for qh>=5,78*Gmax/A
nTr=6,25-(4*Gmax/A)/(qh-4*Gmax/A), but <=6
for qh<=5,78*Gmax/A
nTr=4
calculation for Beanspruchungsgr. 5:
for qh>=7,09*Gmax/A
nTr=7,5-(4,25*Gmax/A)/(qh-4,25*Gmax/A), but <=7
for qh<=7,09*Gmax/A
nTr=6

nTr(115)=1+qh'*(A/Gmax)*(vh/vh')*(dca/dα)*η

\/calculation paper\/
3653

q(A)<=q<=q(B)
q(E)<=q<=q(D)

legend:
qh = biggest dynamic pressure in max. horizontal flight in a height, where the product of density*v² reaches the biggest value
qh' = biggest dynamic pressure in max. horizontal flight in a height, where the product of density*v reaches the biggest value
vh = unaccelerated horizontal flight speed at biggest dynamic pressure
vh' = unaccelerated horizontal flight speed at q=qh'
Gmax = max. flight weight
G = flight weight
A = wing area
nTr = load factor for the wing
cg = overall aerodynamic force figure
n = load factor
η = coefficient for the difference of messured and theoretical values of dca/dα