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LG1.Farber
Jun-16-2013, 08:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kJKSuF6sKI

Please watch in hi res or you might not see the figures and letters.

Gromit
Jun-17-2013, 11:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kJKSuF6sKI

Please watch in hi res or you might not see the figures and letters.

NIce one Farber, like it mate!

But you do sound weirdly like the narrator off the Clangers!:)

ATAG_Snapper
Jun-17-2013, 11:59
Excellent video, Farber! :thumbsup:

Like most here, I've tried all kinds of convergences with the Spitfire; near to far, plus tried setting each pair of guns to varying convergences vertical/horizontal to give me a "cone of death" (like a shotgun) or to reflect a high closing rate on bomber formations. I've finally settled on just setting all eight guns at 200 meters (220 yards on my gunsight) which seems to give me best all round results for dogfights and bombers alike.

I'm not sure, but does Clod model kinetic energy in terms of damage wielded by gunfire at various distances? To use an extreme example, would AP rounds show greater penetration at 100 meters vs 500 meters in Clod?

@Catseye: Does your work with armaments in Team Fusion involve the effects of distance re energy dissipation? For my target shooting hobby I reload my own ammunition for my .303 Lee Enfield and I have nifty data tables showing the energy of the bullet at various distances involving muzzle velocity, weight of the bullet, and the bullet's Ballistic Coefficient. I'm presently shooting 150 grain spire points, but I'd love to reproduce the 174 grain Ball #VII (using IMR 3031 powder rather than cordite) ballistics and see how they print on paper from my rifle -- just for smiles and giggles. :D

Catseye
Jun-17-2013, 13:43
Excellent video, Farber! :thumbsup:

Like most here, I've tried all kinds of convergences with the Spitfire; near to far, plus tried setting each pair of guns to varying convergences vertical/horizontal to give me a "cone of death" (like a shotgun) or to reflect a high closing rate on bomber formations. I've finally settled on just setting all eight guns at 200 meters (220 yards on my gunsight) which seems to give me best all round results for dogfights and bombers alike.

I'm not sure, but does Clod model kinetic energy in terms of damage wielded by gunfire at various distances? To use an extreme example, would AP rounds show greater penetration at 100 meters vs 500 meters in Clod?

@Catseye: Does your work with armaments in Team Fusion involve the effects of distance re energy dissipation? For my target shooting hobby I reload my own ammunition for my .303 Lee Enfield and I have nifty data tables showing the energy of the bullet at various distances involving muzzle velocity, weight of the bullet, and the bullet's Ballistic Coefficient. I'm presently shooting 150 grain spire points, but I'd love to reproduce the 174 grain Ball #VII (using IMR 3031 powder rather than cordite) ballistics and see how they print on paper from my rifle -- just for smiles and giggles. :D

Hi Snapper,
In the weapons file we have information on barrel bore, dispersion values, rate of fire, reserve quantities, reload times, active range, cartridge mass, bullet mass, drag co-efficient, muzzle-velocity and payload.

The information on impact energy at a given distance is not contained in the above information but is being reviewed in a different location in the damage model wherein impact to spars and skin is calculated. This area is currently a WIP and is expected to be completed for the next release. It is a sleuthful task indeed.

Please send me your data base - I can put it on file for comparisons with archival information I have.

Thanks,
Cats . . .

ATAG_Snapper
Jun-17-2013, 13:54
Cool beans, Cats! :thumbsup:

Will get the data off to you later today. :)

LG1.Farber
Jun-17-2013, 17:02
NIce one Farber, like it mate!

But you do sound weirdly like the narrator off the Clangers!:)


Thats just before my time, my older sister watched it though and a check on youtube means I can see where your coming from. I had no idea about the level of volume or how clear it would be or even what I was going to say. It got allot more natural and allot less mad professor towards the end though.

There is a part 2 planned, mainly to point out some differences in the E1 :) but don't hold your breath.

Thanks everyone for the thanks, it makes it worth doing.

5./JG27Meyer
Jun-18-2013, 06:51
Alright !

Gromit
Jun-18-2013, 11:56
Thats just before my time, my older sister watched it though and a check on youtube means I can see where your coming from. I had no idea about the level of volume or how clear it would be or even what I was going to say. It got allot more natural and allot less mad professor towards the end though.

There is a part 2 planned, mainly to point out some differences in the E1 :) but don't hold your breath.

Thanks everyone for the thanks, it makes it worth doing.

You can do it in the style of Bagpuss for the next one!:ilike:

Wulf
Jun-19-2013, 08:14
Hi Farber

I understand what you're saying about a so-called 'window of convergence' and how it should tend to increase, in extent, the further away from the aircraft you harmonize your weapons. However, while I understand what you're suggesting, I tend to think this so-called 'window' would be more theoretical than it would be real. The MG FF is a particularly poor aircraft cannon. It has a very low muzzle velocity, a trajectory that is anything but flat and a very slow cyclic rate. To make matters worse, the ammo types used in the MG FF incorporate a variety of projectile weights and configurations. As a consequence, the muzzle velocities of the different types of ammo differ from each other by as much as 100+m/s. This means that not only do the projectiles follow a very loopy trajectory (which tends to make range estimation critical to success), but the trajectories of the individual munition types will not be the same. This situation can only increase dispersion, particularly as the range increases. What this would tend to suggest is that even though it may be possible to keep a burst from a MG FF inside a meter, at a gun range, at a range of 100m, (not easy at all I'd have thought due to the recoil action of the weapon and the flexing of the gun mounting [the wing]), I very much doubt that this would be possible in air combat - particularly given the slow cyclic rate of the cannon, the constant movement of the attacking and target aircraft and positive and negative wing flexing. Under combat conditions, the spread of projectiles at or beyond 200m would probably be pretty extreme such that you'd probably be luck to register many hits at all.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jun-19-2013, 09:33
The MG FF is a particularly poor aircraft cannon. It has a very low muzzle velocity, a trajectory that is anything but flat and a very slow cyclic rate. To make matters worse, the ammo types used in the MG FF incorporate a variety of projectile weights and configurations. As a consequence, the muzzle velocities of the different types of ammo differ from each other by as much as 100+m/s. This means that not only do the projectiles follow a very loopy trajectory (which tends to make range estimation critical to success), but the trajectories of the individual munition types will not be the same. .

Wulf, I raised these issues in another thread some months back.

The ammunition with lower velocities (and higher air resistance) would cover less ground in the same amount of time as faster velocity ammo.
So, therefore, over the same range, the lower velocity ammo would have significantly greater drop (due to gravity acting on it for the longer period of time required to cover the same range).

For aircraft with multiple ammunition types, it must be very difficult to accurately predict hit-concentrations, particularly as range increases.

Continu0
Jun-19-2013, 13:56
Hi Snapper,
In the weapons file we have information on barrel bore, dispersion values, rate of fire, reserve quantities, reload times, active range, cartridge mass, bullet mass, drag co-efficient, muzzle-velocity and payload.

The information on impact energy at a given distance is not contained in the above information but is being reviewed in a different location in the damage model wherein impact to spars and skin is calculated. This area is currently a WIP and is expected to be completed for the next release. It is a sleuthful task indeed.

Please send me your data base - I can put it on file for comparisons with archival information I have.

Thanks,
Cats . . .

Wow! If I understand you right (I am not sure about that tough), this is defnitely DEVELOPING and no longer PATCHING Cliffs of Dover!
Congrats on that!

@Farber: Thanks of that Video. I have never looked at convergence that way and found it very useful!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jun-19-2013, 14:05
Incidentaly Farber, a very good video.

I shall make something similar for the Spitfire. I have a convergence setting that maximises the window for at least four guns at any one time. I find this setting to be very effective at an extremely wide group of ranges.

ATAG_Snapper
Jun-19-2013, 18:55
Hi Snapper,
In the weapons file we have information on barrel bore, dispersion values, rate of fire, reserve quantities, reload times, active range, cartridge mass, bullet mass, drag co-efficient, muzzle-velocity and payload.

The information on impact energy at a given distance is not contained in the above information but is being reviewed in a different location in the damage model wherein impact to spars and skin is calculated. This area is currently a WIP and is expected to be completed for the next release. It is a sleuthful task indeed.

Please send me your data base - I can put it on file for comparisons with archival information I have.

Thanks,
Cats . . .

You've got mail! :)

LG1.Farber
Jun-20-2013, 04:59
Hi Farber

I understand what you're saying about a so-called 'window of convergence' and how it should tend to increase, in extent, the further away from the aircraft you harmonize your weapons. However, while I understand what you're suggesting, I tend to think this so-called 'window' would be more theoretical than it would be real. The MG FF is a particularly poor aircraft cannon. It has a very low muzzle velocity, a trajectory that is anything but flat and a very slow cyclic rate. To make matters worse, the ammo types used in the MG FF incorporate a variety of projectile weights and configurations. As a consequence, the muzzle velocities of the different types of ammo differ from each other by as much as 100+m/s. This means that not only do the projectiles follow a very loopy trajectory (which tends to make range estimation critical to success), but the trajectories of the individual munition types will not be the same. This situation can only increase dispersion, particularly as the range increases. What this would tend to suggest is that even though it may be possible to keep a burst from a MG FF inside a meter, at a gun range, at a range of 100m, (not easy at all I'd have thought due to the recoil action of the weapon and the flexing of the gun mounting [the wing]), I very much doubt that this would be possible in air combat - particularly given the slow cyclic rate of the cannon, the constant movement of the attacking and target aircraft and positive and negative wing flexing. Under combat conditions, the spread of projectiles at or beyond 200m would probably be pretty extreme such that you'd probably be luck to register many hits at all.

Yep the cannons are poop. Hence I am an E1 man. I wish they would make some kind of E1 with an E4 engine... Or an E1/N Alas TF will not :ind:

Firing the cannons are a fighter from dead 6 at 200m is merely a firework display to let him know you are there.

KushViper
Jan-24-2014, 17:21
Thanks all and especially Farber for his video. I recently changed all my BF109 convergences back to default (whatever that is) and I seem to be hitting the target better than before. I've been trying to understand all the info along with
this> http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=359128&postcount=10 Can someone translate this and make sense of it all?

Thanks
KV :salute:

Davis0079
Jan-27-2014, 09:01
that chart you linked shows that if you sett your vert converg for both the MGs and the cannons to 400meters, then the MG horizontal to 400 and the cannon horizontal to 200meters...you get a perfect 200 meter convergence setup....this is the basis for my setups...works very well...for anyone not wanting to put alot of studying and trial/error tests into their setups...this is the goto way to run your guns...and when editing, I suggest moving it closer, not futher out....I can rip bombers apart with the 400/400 400/200 setup......


....a must for any 109 pilot is to setup a duel trigger....being able to fire MG rounds while boommin in, then at the last second opening up with cannon shells does many things for you...
...1...it lets you range your larger targets without spending all your cannon shells in the first 5 seconds of combat..
...2...it lets you range anysize target without the cannons giving them a heads up to your attack (cannons are very visible)
...3 ..it lets you hit smaller targets with the plentiful MG ammo in a dogfight, once again, without wasting the cannon shells...then once wounded you have a slower, less agile, target for a couple cannon shells to finish off....


some dont like them, others do, I happen to be a big fan of the cannons....a little harder to lead your target with, but once you walk your MGs across a target a couple times, hitting with the cannons is easy to figure out.....in general..if my MGs are hitting, alls i got to do is aim a little higher for a cannon kill...

...for a true Boom and Zoom'er..setting cannons to 100meters and learning to lead in with the MGs,only to open up cannons at point blank range, makes for some fiery skys.....for ppl that want to fly on a bombers dead 6 o'clock and try to get a kill at 500 meters, cannons can be very hard to get set right and use in conjunction with the different trajectory MGs

9./JG52_J-HAT
Jan-27-2014, 15:06
Yep the cannons are poop. Hence I am an E1 man. I wish they would make some kind of E1 with an E4 engine... Or an E1/N Alas TF will not :ind:

Firing the cannons are a fighter from dead 6 at 200m is merely a firework display to let him know you are there.

I have mine set to 125, so unless I fire from about 100 m and hit the engine or cockpit (this one not always either) the Spits and Hurris just fly away when being hit from dead six. True, some cables may get severed, but there is not much damage that makes the plane crash. They eventually crash, but not when I am around.