How Can We Get More People to Play Clod?

[ATAG_Lewis]

Its a Simple question....But I haven't seen anyone ask it yet

If you are reading this then you are probably one of the folks who plays COD on a regular basis and already know just how good it is...Through ATAGS we now have a dedicated crew called Team Fusion who are taking this abandoned sim and doing something constructive with it (working wonders actually) because its a quality WWII sim with a massive potential...but the fact is that still not many people play it....If you go on to Hyperlobby and look at the original IL-2 you will still see 100+ playing the owld sim on any given night and thats dying sim....but thats not the case with COD....If it were a bad game/sim then I could understand it and there be no need for a post...but we all know thats not the case

I thought I might start a discussion at least about this....I mean if we can get more folks flying COD then we WILL create longevity with the sim we love...That was proved with the original and even though it was a niche market the numbers of faithfull flyers didn't dwindle for many years....Only a couple of years ago did the numbers drop quickly and then over a few months....to the faithfull that are still enjoying it..and who still outnumber COD players

I flew the original IL-2 for many years on servers in Hyperlobby at first like 'Flying Circus', 'Big Top' and later 'Skies of Fire' but not many of those thousands of players (and there were thousands) have migrated to this follow on sim...and that stumps me...If we have that amount of players flying COD then this sim will be at the top of the online WWII sims in terms of numbers for many years to come just as the original was...We would have guaranteed longevity

So what can we do to attract more folks?

How can we get those faithfull flyers to fly COD?

Am I right in assuming we want more flyers?....That has to be a given, surely?

I just thought I would throw this out there to you clever WWII aircraft enthusiasts who might enlighten me as to how or why...and if and but

Thank ~S~

Lew

[startrekmike]

The biggest hurdle in the way of getting new players is the reputation this sim got when it was released, agree with it or not, many heard about the performance issues, the bugs and perhaps even felt that this sim was thus rushed out and unfinished, this is a difficult stigma to remove and honestly I don't really know if it is even possible on a large scale.

I think the reason that so many stick with 1946 is simply because it is cheap and it has extensive mods that have extended it's life well past any expectations, CloD will have a difficult time trying to compare to that when many have dismissed it as broken (perhaps unfairly but I suppose that depends on your point of view), if we could find some way to show flight simmers in general that it has gotten better, that many of the major issues have been ironed out then I think we might have hope to bring in a significant amount of new players.

Lastly, I think there is one major thing that might help bring more into CloD, you see, many combat flight simmers have more than one sim in our "toolbox" and some of us can be seen across pretty much every forum for every combat sim out there, it is a small world and thus negativity can have a HUGE effect on a players willingness to not only buy a new sim but also the willingness to join largest communities that surround it.

I suppose what I am trying to say here is that you can catch more bees with honey, going on other forums and talking about what CloD has to offer without trying to downplay other sims (or drag personal or business politics into it) will go a long way on this, players will see a positive and healthy community and want to be a part of it.

As I said, the combat flight sim fanbase is a pretty small one sadly, you are going to find your most loyal and likely CloD players on the forums of other sims and even in the teamspeak lobbies for said sims, if you talk about the positives of CloD without bringing in the political baggage, I think you will find many players who would be more than willing to join the fray over the Channel.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

more missions with variability. I took sometime off because I cant take flying the same missions over and over. if you read the steam forums most people who just bought the game, don't have the hardware to run it.

I wish I knew how to make missions as it looks a little more complicated than the old Il2.

If you are members of other forums, spread the word. I've trie to spread CLOD in the evga and asus rog forums.

[Wulf]

Yeah, it's a tricky one isn't it. Frankly I somehow doubt much can be done. The sim either sells itself or it doesn't. When it's in really good shape I suspect word of mouth will be all that's required BUT, it will also depend to some extent on what else is out there at the time.

I play Clod exclusively. I think it's a very sophisticated game BUT as we all know it's not perfect and it's not the sort of game that is likely to appeal to casual flyers. And frankly, although the game is in many respects on a different planet when compared to 1946, I'm not sure it's as enjoyable, as a simming experience. I'm not absolutely sure why I think this. It may be an aircraft visibility issue or it may be something to do with the limited plane set. Visibility may well be the biggest hurdle for most people I suspect. Aircraft are just so hard to see and even at relatively close ranges, can appear sketchy, washed-out and a bit 2 dimensional. This issue is under action as we know and may now have been resolved or at least greatly improved. I hope this is the case. We'll just have to wait and see. It also seems a bit odd to me that despite its overall sophistication, the game is often played at very low altitude, something that we would usually associate with arcade play. I find this strange because the game requires players to exercise a higher level of involvement than one would expect from a player who just wanted to fly around at tree top level shooting stuff. I find this weird and incongruous. My suspicion is that this is again a visibility issue especially given that the potential for quality high altitude combat is greatly diminished by the ongoing cloud opacity issue - not to mention visibility issues. Long story short, if and when the sim gets properly knocked into shape I suspect the punter issue will resolve itself.

[Oersted]

I hope to have contributed a little bit with my CoD videos. 750,000 views so far...

I think TF should include their wiki page material more prominently in the sim. A link inside the sim to all the best teaching aids would be great, as well as having pdf's as part of the download in a seperate "Manuals" folder. Make it easier for people to learn the sim will bring in more people.

Also, the great campaigns made by, among others, Heinkill, should definitely be part of the download, so they'd just be in the sim from the get go. A host of single missions should be there too, for beginners to fiddle around with.

[Kling]

According to Bliss (sorry Bliss for quoting you in the wrong way if I am) Clod is one of very very few games on Steam that doesnt have its own dedicated server on Steam.
Basically that means that the ATAG server has to connect to Steam as a client just like any of you and me and as a client the bandwith just isnt as high.
Therefor Clod is very limited in how many objects can be included in a map before the server crashes.

Wouldnt we all love to have plenty of high altitude german waves of bombers heading for England with plenty of escort (maybe even AI escort) and plenty of dogfights at high alt while bombers bomb airfield and when a certain airfield is destroyed its unavailable for the reds to use etc etc.
This is possible to do in CLOD but the server will crash due to the limitations with Steam.

As a sidenote, i have 2 friends who said they will come and play CLOD when the visibilty issues with spotting planes is solved. It made no sense to them to spend more time looking for each other knowing you were within a few 1000m from each other than looking for enemies...

But I have a feelikg we have good times ahead with TF at the rudder! The more they fiddle with CLOd the more they learn about the codes...

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

But I have a feelikg we have good times ahead with TF at the rudder! The more they fiddle with CLOd the more they learn about the codes...

Yes, if YOU the public have patience that we will fix the problems and add new material, and WE the modders also have the patience and time to overcome the many difficulties required to achieve the above.

For example, at the moment revising the high speed rollrates, and discovering the algorithm used by the game creates the wrong shape for the force curve which acts to reduce the ability of the pilot to use full deflection of the ailerons as speed increases. So I can either try to get a new algorithm written by our coders, which will take a lot of work and delay things, or I can adapt as best as I can the existing one... :doh: Probably use the existing one for the next release and work on something else for the future... :D

Problems aside, there is a huge amount of potential in this game, you guys will see a new release in the next month or two, and looking beyond, I do not think the arrival of BATTLE OF STALINGRAD is going to reduce people's interest when they see what we can do. I encourage everyone to go out and try BoS, I think they will anyway, but there are so few serious Sims out there, that as we come up with new maps and aircraft, I think the number of people who fly this game will increase...

You see, there is no other Sim which allows the community to get involved in Modding and creation the way this one will... :-)

But that's just my two cents worth. :P

[SG1_sandokito]

First sorry for my English.

1- A lot off player can not move cod well.
2- Only one map, they are doring fliyng the chanel.
3- Visivility of planes. this go to fixed in a future pach (thx TF)
4- Target visivility. same of 3 point (THX TF)
5- Some players no like te hurry and Spit, or 109, they like 190, mig or yag or another plane.

why 1946 have a lot of pilot?

More map, more planes.

To my this is not a problem, my favoryte plane are LW bomber

[DUI]

Very motivating outlook, Buzzsaw!

Spreading the news to reach a big scale of interested pilots surely is no easy task. But I also think that there is a lot of potential new pilots who do not know Cliffs of Dover at all - for sure there are quite some of those people to find in the huge War Thunder community - or who tried the sim shortly after its release and were disappointed (for good reasons). I think the communication is much stronger if there is something new to talk of. What better is there than the release of the new Team Fusion patch in "the next month or two"?

In my opinion promoting Cliffs of Dover in public game or flightsim forums is a quite easy and effective way. On the German Ubisoft forum (http://forums-de.ubi.com/forumdisplay.php/241-IL-2-Sturmovik-Cliffs-of-Dover), JG4_Continu0 who publishes all new TF news and answers questions is the best example how to keep people interested and also attract new ones. In addition to forums I would expect a real Cliffs of Dover website which concentrates the tons of available screenshots, videos, tutorials, wiki information and the Team Fusion forum and news to have a huge effect. Currently, all this great content - for example the extremely helpful flight manuals (http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=flight_manuals) - is very hard to find. This forum currently being the central plattform of Cliffs of Dover problably does not really make the impression to new pilots that the sim is very much alive. Any motivated website designers and content managers at hand? :hypnotized:

After the first Team Fusion patch I tried to spread the news via an (unofficial) press article that I sent to some popular German gaming mags and websites - to be honest without much success. But maybe worth a second try if in the hands of a capable writter...

[Macro]

One of the problems i can think of is that all some people want is powerful planes with big guns that blow apart planes on the first pass, like the old il-2. Clod,being a bob sim(and more realistic) doesnt have this. Put in a spit 9, a mustang and a fw190 and i bet you could watch the players roll in.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

My opinion (everybody has one) is that CloD now rivals (surpasses I think due to eye candy) 1949, and for me, War Thunder has always been arcade"ish.

The problem, as stated, lies in the fact that it's reputation is horrible and it doesn't work (well) out of the box. One also needs more than the average bear of a machine to run it well. Team Fusion has worked their magic and continue to do so. It gets better and better but like Saipan stated, more, new missions really do and will help. Soren and the rest of the people that have made great videos have probably been the biggest "initial" driving force to new people joing. The fantastic vids are what got me interested and the first thing I use when trying to lure in new players.

Fingers crossed that it continues to live on and prosper.

[Osprey]

I've mentioned this before.

Facebook and Twitter.

ACG run accounts for both, we are also involved in a broader 'WW2 Aviation" FB page to attract interest and then we can advertise on that to all of the likers. I notice WT advertised a lot in FB too, this is a great potential step for people but many do not know about COD from that point.

The hardware required now is not expensive anymore, a 560Ti will run max'd out fine, this card is in reach and the sort of thing required for BF3 anyway.

I also think that although TF is community based it doesn't seem all that easy to get involved with, I suspect that there are people who can help but do not know how to get involved and people willing to be trained up to do things. Take mapping for example, if TF have really cracked the maps then it's a long and labourious task to make a map. What about information gathering? There are flyable P-40's in existence, can people find this in order to make a cockpit? P40 + Desert map = new theatre. The work for that has to start at some point, it's a big effort. Perhaps people are not proactive enough though....

[1lokos]

...more missions with variability. I took sometime off because I cant take flying the same missions over and over.

+1,

In the last week I are playing "SNAFU Kanalkampf" missions system in a small private server (SNAFU system dont allow many players) and is very enjoyable due variety of missions, target of oportunity, a "fog of war" - briefings dont tell you what the other side are done - and dont are minded for "fragger dogfighter".

In STEAM client I notice the low frequency in ATAG server, but saturday I log for a fly.

Since I never master de dogfight art, I prefer do attack flights - Blenheim is fine for me, his only flaw is low ability to do level bomber (frontal visibility issues, lack of lever stabilizer - a bad habity induced by 1946, I know...), 5% of success is what someone can expect anchieve.

But when I look for task:

Bomb Ju-88 in Oie Plagge
Bomb ships...

It's the same thing from more than year. :recon:

A squad mate made the same observations.

I only play WWII sim - modern jets and even this "P-51 over Kuban" does not attract me. :D

CloD "planeset" it's fine for the purpose. I do not like the idea of new "uber planes" like FW-190, Spit V, this only serves to turn the server in a "Spit V x Fw190", but I regonize that this one improve the popularity a lot.

As someone say, if il-2:BoS come with a centered gunsight in Bf-109, almost all Luftwaffe flyers disband for him.

About CloD for novices - one thing that the comunity can do to help then is create a new training module - preferable withot this dumbed script thing of the one include in game.

As side note, in il-2 1946 "days" our squad had 30+ members, today two play CloD and one 1946, the rest "disband" for games like BF3 or quite gaming at all. The worst is that in the last ~5 years no one under 20 years age joint for "WWII simulation"... :(

Sokol1

[ATAG_Ribbs]

From Osprey....

I also think that although TF is community based it doesn't seem all that easy to get involved with, I suspect that there are people who can help but do not know how to get involved and people willing to be trained up to do things. Take mapping for example, if TF have really cracked the maps then it's a long and labourious task to make a map. What about information gathering? There are flyable P-40's in existence, can people find this in order to make a cockpit? P40 + Desert map = new theatre. The work for that has to start at some point, it's a big effort. Perhaps people are not proactive enough though....


I believe getting more people involved in team Fusion... is a great idea! Possibly advertising ..looking for people to do various tasks. plane modeling/cockpit modeling or map making. More people= more and faster progress. It might also pull some more people from 1946..looking for a different challenge in skinning and modeling. just a thought ..

[14./JG5_Capt.Stubing]

There are a couple Barriers of Entry that make it so people don't fly CLOD as much...

1 Bad press: (Believe it or not there aren't a lot of people that have a positive impression of CLOD after Release)
2 Learning Curve: Yet another learning curve were people have to convert from what ever sim they are used to flying
3 Performance on Systems: Not everyone I know that is flying IL2 is willing to spend a bunch of money for a Single Sim to run well as older sims do.
4 Limited Planes and Scenarios: Self Explanatory

I've been talking with many about coming over and checking out the ATAG servers and what TF has done with the Sim. The reasons above are what are most often come back when talking with folks.

Bottom line is we are a very small niche in terms of Gamers which means the real growth is getting NEW guys into the sim. I can't tell you how many times I've heard younger guys say they wished they had gotten into this earlier. Folks that moved from Birds of Prey over to IL2 were blown away by just how rich our genre is. I don't know the answer here but I think that is what needs to be worked on.

Stubes

[ChiefRedCloud]

I've read the posts here and agree with most that has been said. Some of my comments echo those. In the beginning the original IL2 modding was slow to take off. It gained momentum soon after. I'm guess that there is much more that TF could do "IF" more code was released (just guessing here).

And as for advertising CloD, well as pointed out, many video enthusiast have put a LOT of time in their support here. Visual aids do more than many words will. AS for word of mouth, many of us do this as often as an opportunity provides itself. However here the opposition has been from both sides of the aisle.

From the OLD IL2 modding community I suspect that from the many angry words that cane from there that many felt that ALL their present or past work would be thrown away for CloD. Then there were the ones who could not run CloD because their machines were not up to it. I, personally, will not sit and argue with someone that has already made up their minds that CloD is BAD. It's a waist of my time. I don't mind a discussion, but not an argument.

RoF, which I fly and love, has high requirement's in most cases, but their are those from that community that can not run it and thus do not support CloD. Understandable, but I guess I was raised a wee bit different in that I don't what I can't play.

Many will spend a paltry $12 on this game and feel ripped off. I spent $60 and knew what I was stepping into. Well maybe not totally, but enough so. Somehow, spelled hope, I knew that someone would take up the fallen banner and run with it as TF has.

Flight sims as has been explained to me is a Very small group. And as such, there will never be a real large following. Especially when split between other flight sims. Those that play games like BF3 exclusively (not knocking the game) have a tendency to enjoy quick Arcady battles like you'll find in War Thunder. They are not in to a sim of reality where you have to navigate or 'find' your prey. They want quick action and then pull the plug.

Please, do not get me wrong. If this is their choice, so be it. But any sim worth it's salt has to be worked at. CloD is one of those. Hell DCS with all it's button still whips my arse. But I still like it.

But all my rhetoric does not answer your question. As enthusiast we keep on as best as we can. We support CloD and those that want to help it succeed. We Inform where we can without getting into a sunny brooke over it. What else can we do?

AS for present numbers on the servers, well let's not forget it's summer time most places and that means outdoor stuff.

[Continu0]

My two cents:


I very much believe that the Sim-Community is NOT too small. We keep telling this story but there are quite a few sim-developers out there that can survive. Sure, they are not millionaires but, it works!

I also very much believe that there is a "big silent crowd" out there, reading, but not writing. They are not playing CloD but they hear the news. I experience this from the german ubisoft-forum: lots of old 1946-players that still hang around in the Forum, maybe playing 1946, hardly playing CloD. BUT THEY ARE READING. Most of them are dissapointed with CloD and very sceptical against BoS.

So what do we have to do? We need an Eye-Catcher! Something that makes people think "okay, maybe I have to give CloD another go". And I am therefore very happy with what seems to be TF-politics:

1. Fix the Game (which is required for everything else that will come)
2. Add new Content only after that

If new Content is beeing added, it has to be advertised very well. If a Malta-Map is going to be released, we need a trailer like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tugifv2YIw8

Also I suggest that unofficial system-requirements are beeing released. I think after all that testing, there is an agreement about what is needed to play CloD.
If new content is advertised the right way and with a clear statement what is needed to play Cliffs of Dover (in Terms of Hardware-requirement but also willingness to learn), I think there are a lot of people out there who just need to stick their DVD into their PC again for one more time and they are back in the game!

Time will tell!

[Bounder!]

Great thread!

I think Lewis has hit on something and it would be great if we as a community could do more to attract chaps who don't know what they're missing to try out CLoD. It's a fantastic game online and with the efforts by Team Fusion it keeps getting better and better.

I think there are a number of things that could be looked at to improve the game, stuff like improving offline content, adding new planes, improving the CEM to make it more complex and realistic, but these sorts of things require a lot of work by those dedicated capable few. Rather than us all waiting for that to happen, for now I would have thought a good bet would be to advertise what a great game it is and that it has an active and welcoming community. One of the biggest problems CLoD suffers from is bad press, most of which is outdated... but you wouldn't realise it if you were researching the game before buying - if you search for Cliffs of Dover on youtube and on google, like many people do, you'll get lots of hits describing the old problems with the game, how it's buggy, unflyable, it wont run on your PC, it's dead. This is something we can help to correct - if we as a community could put out a solid video trailer, really advertising the full game as it is now, the community, and what's going on, maybe more people will be tempted to try the game out for themselves/come back and give it another try?

Perhaps an event could be organised - get loads of guys flying a cool map with a narritive and release a top quality trailer really selling the game. The idea would be to show off what state the game is in now, what to expect and then how awesome flying online can be. I remember when the game first game out, ATAG held such a special event and it was great, if something could be organised again, get loads of guys online filming epic battles, scenes of player controlled bombers from the gun turrets as fighters attack, waves of players meeting and duking it out in massive dogfights, all with TS banter recorded. Someone could put it all together and we could put out a quality video trailer for the game. This could be done following an upcoming Team Fusion patch. Think of it like a movie trailer advertising the game as a whole - it could introduce the game, it's positives (e.g. awesome flight model physics and damage modelling) and then fade into a movie documenting a real online multiplayer event, massive aerial battles, drama etc etc and then describe to people who aren't playing what Team Fusion is about, the major strives that have been made and what the future holds.

I think if the community could produce and support some epic CLoD trailer and disseminate it across the internet, dispelling myths and showing off what a great game this is it could really help to attract new players and get old players to fire the game back up and see how great it is.

[Dutch]

I think if we could produce some epic CLoD trailer, dispelling the myths and showing off what a great game this is it could really help to attract new players and get old players to fire the game back up and see how great it is.

But where would this epic Film Preview be shown? And how would people who don't know about the game already, get to see it? It's not as though TF could get an advertising slot during the advert break in Coronation Street, is it?

But I'm probably being naiive, as usual.....

[Bounder!]

But where would this epic Film Preview be shown? And how would people who don't know about the game already, get to see it? It's not as though TF could get an advertising slot during the advert break in Coronation Street, is it?

But I'm probably being naiive, as usual.....

Post it on a wide range of video hosting sites - youtube, vimeo etc. I have only a small number of crappy vids on youtube that I've not advertised but I get views and many of the comments are from people who haven't played CLoD before but have found it whilst watching 1946/warthunder/RoF/random stuff. Others are people that haven't played the game in years and thought it was dead. I get an awful lot of comments saying about how they didn't realise how much the game has come along, how much better the game seems and people who have said they've bought a copy or reinstalled the game after viewing. Obviously with individual videos it's small fry, but if the whole community could put together a really decent movie and all support it and share it, we can do an awful lot to spread it ourselves through high views, likes and shares. When people search "Cliffs of Dover" in google or on youtube maybe they'll see a decent video showing off the game rather than old videos slagging it off. If it shows off an event and new team fusion stuff maybe we can get a mention on other flight sim websites which will help get it more widely viewed.

[Wulf]

But where would this epic Film Preview be shown? And how would people who don't know about the game already, get to see it? It's not as though TF could get an advertising slot during the advert break in Coronation Street, is it?

But I'm probably being naiive, as usual.....



Whoooooooooooooo .... hang on a minute m8! Sure, let's do all we reasonably can but, interfering with Coro???? Nah ... It's not right M8. It's just not right.....:D

[Osprey]

One of the biggest problems CLoD suffers from is bad press, most of which is outdated... but you wouldn't realise it if you were researching the game before buying - if you search for Cliffs of Dover on youtube and on google, like many people do, you'll get lots of hits describing the old problems with the game, how it's buggy, unflyable, it wont run on your PC, it's dead. This is something we can help to correct -

Very very good point. Just go to somewhere like play.com or amazon and check the reviews. If some of us could just go to these places and put in a more updated review then that perhaps would mean the next person presses the 'add to basket' button.

It could well be worth contacting magazines like PC Pilot to perform a post TF patch review again, because their early reviews were "yeah alright but full of bugs, 5 out of 10" - This does not sell a thing. A new review in magazine, or at least a column, is something for them to write about and informs people - free advertising.

Lastly, ATAG need to sort out their missions, they are poor and people have been saying this for a long time. ATAG is one of the premium servers and a go to server for beginners, what do they get? low furballs mid channel with aircraft that were barely in the BoB with some fantasy missions - hardly going to keep people flying or teach them a damn thing - I facepalm when I see a newbie join and he's picked a Spitfire I DH 87 octane because it's the default - what's he going to do with that?! It's not hard to sort out. :recon:

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Very very good point. Just go to somewhere like play.com or amazon and check the reviews. If some of us could just go to these places and put in a more updated review then that perhaps would mean the next person presses the 'add to basket' button.

Good idea. I've just been reading some of the Amazon reviews, and making replies and a review of my own.
It's a tough read, and we need folks to get on those sites and to start re-advertising this game.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

The Amazon review update is a good idea and I for one am going to take the time to do that.

Also I like Bounder's idea of making a new "trailer" for the old Girl. Don't sell yourself short Mate, your "few vids" are not at all crappy and in fact show just how cool the game can be utilizing teamwork with squadron mates.

Count me in if you decide to make this video. I'll follow script and be canon fodder (nothing new :) if need be. I think it would be fun to make the clip:thumbsup:

I think also that we should have more campaigns like the one (Battle for France) that starts Sunday 14th sponsored and made by members of my group. These are looked forward to and provide impetus for training inbetween the weekly missions for the squads. They also interest people in joining a squadron so as to partake.


1lokos say "As someone say, if il-2:BoS come with a centered gunsight in Bf-109, almost all Luftwaffe flyers disband for him.

About CloD for novices - one thing that the comunity can do to help then is create a new training module - preferable withot this dumbed script thing of the one include in game."

Funny and good idea on the training!

[Royraiden]

Excellent thread, please dont let it die and lets actually take action and start doing some of the stuff already share in here.There are two main points that we need to demystify to the general public,one is the misconception that the sim is in the same state as it was at release, full of bugs and with horrible,the other misguided notion is that the sim is abandoned ,with no support whatsoever and nobody playing it.

We all can do our part,everytime I see a negative comment on youtube about the sim,I make a reply describing what TF has done, is doing and planning to do and I also point out that the hardware required to run it isnt high end or expensive at all anymore.I have managed to convince a few people to come by the ATAG forums and check it out for themselves.I even managed to convince one guy to buy the sim.

So,we need to spread the word and reach as many potential flyers as possible. I for one got attracted back to this sim by the wonderful gameplay videos made by Soren.So with all the talented movie makers we got in this community, and knowing that we already have Misticpuma making videos for TF, I encourage you guys to concentrate on a trailer to promote,not just describe what TF is doing.

I dont want to speak on behalf of all the ACG members but Im sure most if not all of us would be willing to cooperate in the movie/s if needed. Im really optimistic about what we can do because I was one of those skeptic ones after release,left it for dead and after 2 years I was amazed by what I was seeing on videos that I had to come back, at the same time I read about TF and that motivated me even more.

[VMF214_Jupp]

~S~ Ladies,

I've created movies, posted screenshots, and offered advice on hardware and software across several forums.

I've made a multiplayer mission download that somewhat explains somethings, so that users can create their own.

And I advocate whenever possible on the merits of learning everything there is to know about flight simulators and computers.


More than all of this, good conduct, patience, and the friendships that develop go along way towards the longevity of anything.

I'll spend some one-on-one time with nearly anyone that shows interest, intelligence, or insomnia. Three keys to good flight simming!

If anyone has interest in it, I've create a Facebook Community Group which has been steadily gaining membership to these ends...


https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/298167406958460/

[ATAG_Bliss]

Osprey - you have some nerve. Where do you get off saying our missions are poor? In case you haven't noticed ATAG has had, by far, the most popular server in Cliffs of Dover. Condoning people for the way they play is one reason a community shrinks. If someone wants to duke it out on the deck, they should be welcomed to do so. Same goes for any other way they want to fly within the rules.

The SoW server is even using the scripts we developed for showing objectives and time left, which you guys used without asking because of a mission I scripted for you, which you incorporated into everything else. I'm really sick and tired of your arrogance. All you do here is advertise your group and put down another on this forum.

The ATAG server has always been about people having fun. That has always been its purpose. Do you know how many complaints I've gotten from new members here about you? It seems every single new player that joins these forums (the ATAG forums) you send them a PM asking them to fly on your TS and server. Don't you think that's in bad form? I could go on. But the last thing I'm going to do is allow you to insult ATAG on our own forums.

[startrekmike]

I try to do my part by keeping a eye on the flight sim subreddit and the steam forums, if I see someone who has a outdated view of CloD, I update them on it's current situation honestly by saying that it still has it's problems but most of them don't effect the in-cockpit experience at all.

Keeping a eye on the steam forums for CloD during the sales is a good idea, a lot of folks will ask "is this game good?" and often reply's are based on outdated views of the sim.


The new trailer idea is neat but in order to make any real difference, you are going to need to find a way to get someone outside the flight simulator world to watch it, that is no easy task and I have no answer as to how this might be done, it is important not to just preach to the choir though.

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Osprey - you have some nerve. Where do you get off saying our missions are poor? In case you haven't noticed ATAG has had, by far, the most popular server in Cliffs of Dover. Condoning people for the way they play is one reason a community shrinks. If someone wants to duke it out on the deck, they should be welcomed to do so. Same goes for any other way they want to fly within the rules.

The SoW server is even using the scripts we developed for showing objectives and time left, which you guys used without asking because of a mission I scripted for you, which you incorporated into everything else. I'm really sick and tired of your arrogance. All you do here is advertise your group and put down another on this forum.

The ATAG server has always been about people having fun. That has always been its purpose. Do you know how many complaints I've gotten from new members here about you? It seems every single new player that joins these forums (the ATAG forums) you send them a PM asking them to fly on your TS and server. Don't you think that's in bad form? I could go on. But the last thing I'm going to do is allow you to insult ATAG on our own forums.

:thumbsup: THANK YOU +1 an this is my opinion don't hold against 71st

[Kling]

We should contact Barfly!
Search for "Cliffs of dover and barfly" on youtube!

[Old_Canuck]

+1 plus Jt's + 1 = +2

Much respect for you Bliss that you restrained yourself so long on this issue. Many many times I've wanted to push back at Osprey for his blatant self serving posts but held my peace.


Osprey - you have some nerve. Where do you get off saying our missions are poor? In case you haven't noticed ATAG has had, by far, the most popular server in Cliffs of Dover. Condoning people for the way they play is one reason a community shrinks. If someone wants to duke it out on the deck, they should be welcomed to do so. Same goes for any other way they want to fly within the rules.

The SoW server is even using the scripts we developed for showing objectives and time left, which you guys used without asking because of a mission I scripted for you, which you incorporated into everything else. I'm really sick and tired of your arrogance. All you do here is advertise your group and put down another on this forum.

The ATAG server has always been about people having fun. That has always been its purpose. Do you know how many complaints I've gotten from new members here about you? It seems every single new player that joins these forums (the ATAG forums) you send them a PM asking them to fly on your TS and server. Don't you think that's in bad form? I could go on. But the last thing I'm going to do is allow you to insult ATAG on our own forums.

[Osprey]

Lovely.

[ATAG_Lewis]

Anyways...Back on topic...

Some really good ideas here...

I think that the bad reviews we see at the top of the list when we google 'IL-2 Cliffs Of Dover review' is a major problem with its unpopularity....due, to the sims obvious 'problematic' start in the world...I think anything that goes toward setting that right will have an affect on population...Is there any way we can get those official reviews updated or do they only make a review on release?...Does anyone know of game reviews that have been re-addressed after patches and such?

Also I think Bounders Video idea is good....We spend a lot of time making films for youtube and it does get to folks who want to buy/play the game....We always checkout youtube game vids before we buy.....I have also deleted a few negative comments that have put down CLOD on my films aswell...and.....I plan more films

What about personal reviews on sites that advertise the game such as Amazon.....There are many 1 star reviews on there and we could do well to start upping the star rating by a simple positive review by folks in the community...thats a relatively small thing to do for an individual but enmasse will have an impact on games sales at least...I've just written a review for Amazon...and I see Bounder already beat me to that too!!!

...lew..

[ATAG_Bliss]

Good thinking Lewis.

1/2 the battle is all the people that bashed and bashed. As a long time flyer of 46, it's hard to go back. Not so much because of the graphics, but because everything else feels soo much more real with Cliffs. The amount of detail in Clod is unsurpassed by any combat flight sim I've ever seen. After having that, I just can't go fly a dumbed down version of any other.

Heck, we were almost about ready to drive tanks and vehicles around. Such a shame on all accounts.

[Dutch]

Well, for what it's worth, that bloke 'simnut' on the Amazon UK reviews is me. I reviewed the game when things were looking sticky last year, and the Devs obviously needed some support. I see only one person, yes one, found it useful.

Strange that a dozen or so found the negative review next to it helpful. Presumably because they decided not to buy it.......

Maybe we're up against it, in an overall gaming sense, when slick products like Crysis or Skyrim look and play so well, and are available for consoles as well as pc. Flight sim fans already know about Cliffs, and have already formed their opinions either way. New blood will buy it bacause it's a bargain these days, but may find it tough online because of the propensity for full real.

In between a rock and a hard place, really.

[Wulf]

If CLoD is to be actively promoted, is this really the right time to be doing it? I mean, what exactly is it that's to be sold to prospective punters? We know the game has been significantly improved from where it was, but as we also know, it certainly isn't finished, it's still very much a work in progress. Do we really want a situation where people turn up, perhaps in droves, and with unrealistic expectations only to find a game that is perhaps still 6 months to a year away from being fully de-bugged? Is that a sensible way to manage the future? I have serious doubts about this. In fact, the more I think about it the more I feel that the timing of any active recruitment requires much more serious consideration, or alternatively, should just be left to TF to determine. If TF think now is the right time then obviously they'd know far more than I would.

[startrekmike]

Well, for what it's worth, that bloke 'simnut' on the Amazon UK reviews is me. I reviewed the game when things were looking sticky last year, and the Devs obviously needed some support. I see only one person, yes one, found it useful.

Strange that a dozen or so found the negative review next to it helpful. Presumably because they decided not to buy it.......

Maybe we're up against it, in an overall gaming sense, when slick products like Crysis or Skyrim look and play so well, and are available for consoles as well as pc. Flight sim fans already know about Cliffs, and have already formed their opinions either way. New blood will buy it bacause it's a bargain these days, but may find it tough online because of the propensity for full real.

In between a rock and a hard place, really.


I think you hit the nail on the head there, flight simmers already know about CloD and are either playing it or not playing it, I think we can increase the amount of folks playing it by extending a olive branch to the rest of the flight simmer population and try to inform them (honestly) of it's current status, I mean, the fact of the matter is that while it still has some annoying flaws (mostly menu system related and not sim related), it is still a great deal better overall than it was even before the last steam patch, not even counting the rather great efforts of TF.

As I said above, I make it a point to inform folks on the steam forums and the flight sim subreddit of it's current status, I don't sugar coat it, I don't compare it to other sims where comparisons are not needed, I just sell it to them on the sims own merits and give them the honest truth about my (rather nice) experiences with it.

I suppose what I am trying to say here is that I find I get really good results when I sell CloD as part of a larger flight sim solution for players, I tell them that it is pretty much the best (complete) WWII flight simulator on the market as of right now and if they are hesitant because of (what they see) as a limited plane-set, I tell them that they are not going to find a better simulator that is focuses on the Battle of Britain and it goes well with other sims to form a more comprehensive experience, not unlike owning all of the Total war games, every one of them offers something specific and thus is part of a greater whole.

Overall, when I try to get someone into a flight sim, I try to get them into ALL of them, titles like 1946 and CloD are pretty cheap nowadays so buying them in conjunction with DCS modules or even the ROF Iron cross edition is not a huge deal and gives them a nice full experience across different era's.

Posting video's on reddit's gaming and flight simulator subreddits will help a lot I think but our primary goal should be to grab other flight simmers who might have given up on it early or never bothered to due to it's earned negative reputation on release, going on other flight sim forums and (politely and without name-calling, bitterness or undue comparisons) posting video's and stories will go a long way to healing CloD's damaged reputation and elevating it to where it belongs.

We could also look into posting on the War thunder forum, I mean, I feel dirty just thinking about going there but if we want newer players, that is probably a good place to look also, again, we should be careful not to come off negatively so perhaps avoiding comparisons in general will get us better results as opposed to going on the WT forums and saying "War thunder is arcade trash!" I mean, it may be true but they won't listen to us if we come at them in that manner.

[DK_]

Well, for what it's worth, that bloke 'simnut' on the Amazon UK reviews is me. I reviewed the game when things were looking sticky last year, and the Devs obviously needed some support. I see only one person, yes one, found it useful.

Strange that a dozen or so found the negative review next to it helpful. Presumably because they decided not to buy it.......

Maybe we're up against it, in an overall gaming sense, when slick products like Crysis or Skyrim look and play so well, and are available for consoles as well as pc. Flight sim fans already know about Cliffs, and have already formed their opinions either way. New blood will buy it bacause it's a bargain these days, but may find it tough online because of the propensity for full real.

In between a rock and a hard place, really.

Any thoughts on editing your review to update the current state and highlight the improvements that TF have made and the current state of the ATAG server. Talk about the future development. If you can't edit the review maybe add a reply? Just a friendly suggestion. Perhaps I'll make my own review and follow my own advice!

[ATAG_Lewis]

I see a few of the community here have posted reviews on the Amazon website.....I just did too...But I just realised something....I initially posted on the UK Amazon site as thats the one that comes up as default for me....That is ONLY for UK customers so if you are going to take the time to write a review then it makes more sense to go the extra yard and copy and paste it and post it on the international site too which will have a LOT more traffic...It will take you 5 minutes to do this

At present there are 27 reviews on the UK site and 128 on the international site....So I'd make a guess that the international site gets around 5 times the traffic the UK site does......Also if you have put a 4 star then up it to 5 to try to dilute those 1 star negative reviews...

Hmmm.....I wonder if Amazon will smell a rat if they get 100 reviews all with 5 star and the same date?....lol

You know, I even thought of contacting those folks who put a 1 star through their Amazon account and asking them to try the sim again and update their review...but I cant seem to be able to send them a message without it being seen....hehe.....SUBTERFUGE!!!

Amazon International:

http://www.amazon.com/IL-2-Sturmovik-Cliffs-Dover-Pc/dp/B004L5SJ4Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373451535&sr=8-1&keywords=cliffs+of+dover+il2+sturmovik

Amazon UK:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sturmovik-Cliffs-Dover-PC-DVD-VERSION/dp/B004W2SQEE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Do we have a list of sites that CLOD is sold on that have a customer review option?

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

If CLoD is to be actively promoted, is this really the right time to be doing it? I mean, what exactly is it that's to be sold to prospective punters? We know the game has been significantly improved from where it was, but as we also know, it certainly isn't finished, it's still very much a work in progress. Do we really want a situation where people turn up, perhaps in droves, and with unrealistic expectations only to find a game that is perhaps still 6 months to a year away from being fully de-bugged? Is that a sensible way to manage the future? I have serious doubts about this. In fact, the more I think about it the more I feel that the timing of any active recruitment requires much more serious consideration, or alternatively, should just be left to TF to determine. If TF think now is the right time then obviously they'd know far more than I would.

Once again, Wulf enters the fray with some good thinking that deserves some more air-time. :salute:

Whilst I do think that now IS the time to promote the game, I do agree that there is a risk of us over-selling it, especially if TF are still working on some major bugs/flaws.
The last thing we want is for someone to D/L the current TF patches, and then post reviews saying that the game is still a waste of time!

[ATAG_Lewis]

I really don't believe there is any chance of us overselling this product..at the present time there are 15 people playing it online.....in the world!

First the influence we are going to have, if we pull out all the stops, over the present population is not going to be massive...It will be small scale...I don't think we are going to overhaul the majority opinion that CLOD is to be seen in a negative light...But I don't think we can do any harm if we start to tip the balance in our favour...more than it is...

I want to see more people in ATAGS servers.....I want it to be full when I come to play....I want to have to wait and keep hitting that 'Enter server' key repeatedly in frustration because the server is packed and I can't get in....For me thats what it deserves.....We have the quality brains behind the transformation of this sim in the TF who are doing a blinding job....however, for any product it does not matter how good your team is if you can't sell your product then you have lost...

All I'm saying is lets try to tip the scales back to the positive, and encourage new blood by hitting the first point of contact which is when someone says...'Hey I'd like to play a WWII flight sim, now lets see the reviews of whats on the market' ...that includes reviews and video sites

So with the clever fellas we have here and this community surely there is something we can do toward getting those servers full.....constantly

What say you?

[SoW Reddog]

Once again, Wulf enters the fray with some good thinking that deserves some more air-time. :salute:

Whilst I do think that now IS the time to promote the game, I do agree that there is a risk of us over-selling it, especially if TF are still working on some major bugs/flaws.
The last thing we want is for someone to D/L the current TF patches, and then post reviews saying that the game is still a waste of time!

You're right. It IS a huge waste of time. I spent 3 hrs playing last night when I should have been sleeping. Oh. That's not what you meant was it haha.

I think the best way to get more coverage/interest is for expansion of the current game, rather than fixes. I know the fixes are hugely important to US, but I think the appeal of expanding CloD outside of the BoB, or increasing the planeset will get more buy in than simply fixing the game to how it should have been in the first place.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

What say you?

Fair call. Points in your post are well made sir!

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

I'll take my chances Wulf. :thumbsup:

I'm constantly actively recruiting like many people here and to my mind the sim is already pretty danged good and will only get better with TF mods. The time it takes folks to get up to snuff will show the dedicated ones what we already see and know of it's potential.

[_79_dev]

...The SoW server is even using the scripts we developed for showing objectives and time left, which you guys used without asking because of a mission I scripted for you, which you incorporated into everything else. I'm really sick and tired of your arrogance. All you do here is advertise your group and put down another on this forum....

With the greatest of respect Bliss, I never took anything without asking You guys or without giving You credits. PLEAS DO NOT call me arrogant because You have no right to do it and I really feel sorry about that. I am the one responsible to run SoW server and scripts, so You hit directly into me... This way You only dividing community.... We are running great events on our server and historical missions. We are not trying to compete with You at all...

One day You told me we should start to work together on Cliffs of Dover to develop this game much better for community... I am still waiting for that day....I am sure there is lot of experience we can exchange and make that game better...

5./JG27 Vogler

[ATAG_Bliss]

With the greatest of respect Bliss, I never took anything without asking You guys or without giving You credits. PLEAS DO NOT call me arrogant because You have no right to do it and I really feel sorry about that. I am the one responsible to run SoW server and scripts, so You hit directly into me... This way You only dividing community.... We are running great events on our server and historical missions. We are not trying to compete with You at all...

One day You told me we should start to work together on Cliffs of Dover to develop this game much better for community... I am still waiting for that day....I am sure there is lot of experience we can exchange and make that game better...

5./JG27 Vogler

Who did you ask or where is the credits? I did all the scripts for the Dunkirk mission you have. I modified the mission to work (aka fixed it so it didn't have 5 second pauses - made the AI work) and after running it for a few weeks, also added 100oct versions of the RAF planes which caused Gruber to throw a hissy fit and ask for its removal. Even funnier he changed his to have 100oct planes after the reds showed him evidence they were there at a much later date. The irony is hilarious.

I wasn't necessarily attacking you btw. For all I know, you were told that Gruber did all the work and it was free game. I see jabs at ATAG regarding that very mission on your own forums. But it wasn't until you had my way of scripting that you soon incorporated the time left, the objectives, and being able to use ships as targets on your server (aka used my scripts).

You talk about working together, but in the same sentence have never offered us anything.

[carbolicus]

Continuo said above that they thought there was a "big silent crowd" out there reading but not writing. Probably true, I'm one of 'em - I've been lurking around this forum and the yellow one for a long time. I don't have CloD as my PC won't run it - but as soon as I can justify a new one with the necessary bells and whistles I will get it and the TF mods, which look fantastic.

I'm sure it's still true that the average PC out there hasn't got the grunt to run CloD and many who'd jump on it can't run it, like me. But every month that goes by old PCs die and more new ones enter the food chain (so to speak!)

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Continuo said above that they thought there was a "big silent crowd" out there reading but not writing. Probably true, I'm one of 'em - I've been lurking around this forum and the yellow one for a long time. I don't have CloD as my PC won't run it - but as soon as I can justify a new one with the necessary bells and whistles I will get it and the TF mods, which look fantastic.

I'm sure it's still true that the average PC out there hasn't got the grunt to run CloD and many who'd jump on it can't run it, like me. But every month that goes by old PCs die and more new ones enter the food chain (so to speak!)

Hello Carbolicus

And when you see the new effects and graphics we will have for the 2nd Team Fusion Release, you won't believe your eyes...:dazed!:

Do yourself a favour and don't play the vanilla game when you first install it... install the Vanilla, then patch it up to the latest TF release, then fly...

You will be blown away by how good Flight Sims can be. :-)

[LG1.Farber]

Osprey - you have some nerve. Where do you get off saying our missions are poor? In case you haven't noticed ATAG has had, by far, the most popular server in Cliffs of Dover. Condoning people for the way they play is one reason a community shrinks. If someone wants to duke it out on the deck, they should be welcomed to do so. Same goes for any other way they want to fly within the rules.

The SoW server is even using the scripts we developed for showing objectives and time left, which you guys used without asking because of a mission I scripted for you, which you incorporated into everything else. I'm really sick and tired of your arrogance. All you do here is advertise your group and put down another on this forum.

The ATAG server has always been about people having fun. That has always been its purpose. Do you know how many complaints I've gotten from new members here about you? It seems every single new player that joins these forums (the ATAG forums) you send them a PM asking them to fly on your TS and server. Don't you think that's in bad form? I could go on. But the last thing I'm going to do is allow you to insult ATAG on our own forums.

1. The ATAG server missions are the same ones that were first made when the game came out. They are old and outdated. The landing lights at Zukirk are pain in the butt and have been there since the beginning despite numerous objections from many people. The atag missions are poor and when someone comes along with enthusiasm and gives you something because they are so sick flying the atag missions you blast them instead of using reasoning and helping. I mean all the people that made missions for you too.

2. Why are you attacking Osprey for the SoW server. I personally created and oversaw the SoW server and website from creation to the present with help along the way, all credit is listed on the forum to whom it belongs. I created the SoW experience to stimulate squadrons and bring competition.



Osprey - you have some nerve. Where do you get off saying our missions are poor? In case you haven't noticed ATAG has had, by far, the most popular server in Cliffs of Dover. Condoning people for the way they play is one reason a community shrinks. If someone wants to duke it out on the deck, they should be welcomed to do so. Same goes for any other way they want to fly within the rules.

The SoW server is even using the scripts we developed for showing objectives and time left, which you guys used without asking because of a mission I scripted for you, which you incorporated into everything else. I'm really sick and tired of your arrogance. All you do here is advertise your group and put down another on this forum.

The ATAG server has always been about people having fun. That has always been its purpose. Do you know how many complaints I've gotten from new members here about you? It seems every single new player that joins these forums (the ATAG forums) you send them a PM asking them to fly on your TS and server. Don't you think that's in bad form? I could go on. But the last thing I'm going to do is allow you to insult ATAG on our own forums.

1. Everyone can have an opinion. There is nothing you can do about it. I think the ATAG missions are poor.

2. ATAG wrote the time left and objectives script? You mean the one that existed in the IL2 fb warbirds of prey server years before clod even existed? The clod commander used and built by Wild Willie? The one ported to clod?


Good thinking Lewis.

1/2 the battle is all the people that bashed and bashed. As a long time flyer of 46, it's hard to go back. Not so much because of the graphics, but because everything else feels soo much more real with Cliffs. The amount of detail in Clod is unsurpassed by any combat flight sim I've ever seen. After having that, I just can't go fly a dumbed down version of any other.

Heck, we were almost about ready to drive tanks and vehicles around. Such a shame on all accounts.

AGREED - on all accounts. I love cliffs of dover. I am and have tried extremely hard to promote and stimulate this community.



Who did you ask or where is the credits? I did all the scripts for the Dunkirk mission you have. I modified the mission to work (aka fixed it so it didn't have 5 second pauses - made the AI work) and after running it for a few weeks, also added 100oct versions of the RAF planes which caused Gruber to throw a hissy fit and ask for its removal. Even funnier he changed his to have 100oct planes after the reds showed him evidence they were there at a much later date. The irony is hilarious.

I wasn't necessarily attacking you btw. For all I know, you were told that Gruber did all the work and it was free game. I see jabs at ATAG regarding that very mission on your own forums. But it wasn't until you had my way of scripting that you soon incorporated the time left, the objectives, and being able to use ships as targets on your server (aka used my scripts).

You talk about working together, but in the same sentence have never offered us anything.

1. 5./JG27 Gruber made the Dunkirk mission for the SoW server but we gave it to ATAG to stimulate the community and share.

2. You claim not to use wild willies clod commander and claim to have made your own. How can we build a script to work with an unkown clod commander? One that apparently is superior and that you will when its perfected share with the community? - its a long wait.

3. Someone makes a great effort for you and push him out of his own creation and then ridicule him in public. What kind of man are you?

4. Post number 22 by Osprey. It wasn't Lewis's idea, no offense Lewis. Why can't you read and take in anything be SoW or ACG?


Some other points, a member of ACG made a poly model of a British destroyer which was offered to TF via Bliss which was never accepted. - WHY?

Storm of War and ACG offered to help TF in any way possible. We have never been asked to help.

Members of Storm of War have made themselves known and available to work with ATAG and stimulate the community but ATAG have never actioned any of the initiatives nor suggested any ACG or SoW can help with.

Bliss you are cutting off your nose to spite your face and the only thing you harm is the community in doing so. We either all pull together or we sink. You are the one stopping progress.

You are the man who knows everything about everything and will state your opinion above everyone else with no regards to logic or reason or consideration of any other argument.

Lets face it you think you are a big fish, however this is a small pond. I sadly look forward to BoS because you are so set against it will be a place we can escape you if we move there. Such is your toxic personality.

Now undoubtedly you will write up a big rant about how you walk on water and the community revolves around you and then you will lock the thread and or ban us for making these posts of fact contrary to your own imaginary world.

[Osprey]

+1

Somehow you just see us as some sort of rival or threat hence the vitriol all of the time. Just like Syndicate were, batter them at every turn. Why do you do that? All we do is run another group and another way of doing things, it doesn't clash at all, it keeps people flying - most would've put the game down if it weren't for efforts like this, and they stick around as a result. Most of what you say is wrong or paranoid, it's all very sad tbh. Why can't you see that?

[LG1.Farber]

+1

Somehow you just see us as some sort of rival or threat hence the vitriol all of the time. Just like Syndicate were. Why do you do that?

Yes like we are some sort of enemy working to destroy ATAG. - Which we are not.

Why doesn't ATAG ever join our campaigns at SoW? They are open to all and it stimulates the community?

[Continu0]

It is probably not wise to get involved into this (and it is the last thing I will write about it), but in the name of the community, please try to solve such issues. I am sure both of you have something to offer. I have played both, ATAG-Missions and the Campaigns on SoW. The competence of ATAG is obvious, but the SoW-Campaigns give CloD a whole NEW (not better or anything, just new) dimension as well!
If something does not make sense, it is knowledge not beeing shared.

Btw: First step to solve a conflict is to talk about actuall things and not peoples and their characters. You all did great work, you can`t be that bad persons...

my 2 cents and I am out!

[LG1.Farber]

It is probably not wise to get involved into this (and it is the last thing I will write about it), but in the name of the community, please try to solve such issues. I am sure both of you have something to offer. I have played both, ATAG-Missions and the Campaigns on SoW. The competence of ATAG is obvious, but the SoW-Campaigns give CloD a whole NEW (not better or anything, just new) dimension as well!
If something does not make sense, it is knowledge not beeing shared.

We want to share... we want to stimulate, we want the community to grow.

How Can We Get More People to Play Clod? - the title of the thread, Yet Bliss uses it to divide the community and stop the current players wanting to be part of the community.

Dont tell me, I am getting a ban for telling the truth and my side of the storey....The thread will be locked. Watch this space.

[Continu0]

We want to share... we want to stimulate, we want the community to grow.

How Can We Get More People to Play Clod? - the title of the thread, Yet Bliss uses it to divide the community and stop the current players wanting to be part of the community.

Dont tell me, I am getting a ban for telling the truth and my side of the storey.... Watch this space.

As I wrote above:
Btw: First step to solve a conflict is to talk about actuall things and not peoples and their characters. You all did great work, you can`t be that bad persons...

I suggest stopping posts like "he was it!", because all that follows is: "no he was it!". Search for the solution, don`t point out the problem for the 100th time...

[ATAG_Colander]

How Can We Get More People to Play Clod? - the title of the thread, Yet Bliss uses it to divide the community and stop the current players wanting to be part of the community.

Farber,

Bliss was responding to this:

Lastly, ATAG need to sort out their missions, they are poor and people have been saying this for a long time.

Please don't tell me this is not an indirect insult.

Anyway, I agree, back on topic please.

[Osprey]

It is probably not wise to get involved into this (and it is the last thing I will write about it), but in the name of the community, please try to solve such issues. I am sure both of you have something to offer. I have played both, ATAG-Missions and the Campaigns on SoW. The competence of ATAG is obvious, but the SoW-Campaigns give CloD a whole NEW (not better or anything, just new) dimension as well!
If something does not make sense, it is knowledge not beeing shared.

Btw: First step to solve a conflict is to talk about actuall things and not peoples and their characters. You all did great work, you can`t be that bad persons...

my 2 cents and I am out!


I held out my hand in a PM once and Bliss just bit it, lecturing me about all the stuff he knew. Now I haven't broken any rules but Bliss claims to know what PM's I've been sending has he been reading my personal messages? I hope that facility isn't a feature of these forums, that's real poor form - who will get a ban I wonder? TBH I'm sick of it, I want it all to succeed but I just can't see it in the long run with BOS around the corner and the divisive, dominating nature of Bliss. I'll record what I've written because I suspect the delete key will be hit before another character assassination.

[LG1.Farber]

Farber,

Bliss was responding to this:


Please don't tell me this is not an indirect insult.

Anyway, I agree, back on topic please.

How does that solve all the bad feeling Colander? Bliss cant call us all out and rant and rave about us in a bad light in front of the whole community with immunity. Where is his courage of conviction sir?

[Osprey]

Farber,

Bliss was responding to this:


Please don't tell me this is not an indirect insult.

Anyway, I agree, back on topic please.


I appreciate that Colander but it's just an excuse to clobber me in public for an opinion. If one is actually insulted by that then you only need look in the ATAG mission forum to see dozens of similar comments.

[ATAG_Colander]

Will move this discussion to a PM.
Please get back on topic.

[Old_Canuck]

I appreciate that Colander but it's just an excuse to clobber me in public for an opinion. If one is actually insulted by that then you only need look in the ATAG mission forum to see dozens of similar comments.

Osprey, it's so obvious what you're doing. Holding out the olive leaf with one hand and undermining with the other. Collander's succinct quote says it all. If you want to make peace and reserve the ATAG forum as a place where you can raid players for your server it might be wise for you to apologise to Bliss for your public insult (which he appropriately addressed in public).

[ATAG_Colander]

I repeat


Will move this discussion to a PM.
Please get back on topic.

[Osprey]

Will move this discussion to a PM.
Please get back on topic.


I would rather all meet on Teamspeak Colander, if at all possible, although I have an impossibly busy weekend with a rock gig I am doing for a local charity and then off to the Duxford Flying Legends show for the weekend, I hope to meet ATAG_Dutch there actually, he'll be meeting 56RAF when the dozen or so ACG attend.

I totally understand the threat of derailment of this thread, I guess some things have come to a head though, perhaps it requires a split.

[Dutch]

I hope to meet ATAG_Dutch there actually, he'll be meeting 56RAF when the dozen or so ACG attend.

Cool! Look forward to it mate, but I hope we're not going to mar the weekend with this kind of stuff!! :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Colander]

You should take this opportunity to attract more players. Make a huge sign and place it in front of everyone :D
I bet 1/2 the people going there had never heard of CLOD!

[Dutch]

You should take this opportunity to attract more players. Make a huge sign and place it in front of everyone :D
I bet 1/2 the people going there had never heard of CLOD!

Yeah, I thought of having a 'Cliffs of Dover/ATAG' Teeshirt made, but only thought about it yesterday. Typical of my slow brain. :(

But 'The Fighter Collection' are based there, which has some sort of connection with Eagle Dynamics/DCS I think, somehow, so who knows who we'll bump into.....:thumbsup:

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

With apologies to the moderator for veering back onto the verboten topic....:wf:

As someone who is neither a member of ATAG or the other Squads which host CoD events, here's my perspective.

I used to enjoy flying on ATAG fairly regularly, and I flew a couple times on STORM OF WAR. Since joining the Mod team, my hours of flying have dropped considerably, my spare flying time is usually spent working on the Mod.

But I will say I think both Bliss and for example Farber do a great job of promoting and putting together events and optimizing their servers.

Probably Bliss and the ATAG server is a little further ahead in the area of technical advances, and probably Farber is a little further ahead in the historicity of his events. Overall the community owes a big debt to ATAG for creating a forum where the talents of many from all over were able to come together to create the Team Fusion Mod.

This community is big enough to get plenty of advantages from having multiple hosting servers, and small enough that it would suffer if the number was reduced.

I think the different groups have lots to gain from working together, and probably both sides should exercise a little discretion in their postings. We all know how small remarks which are not intended to be malicious in their expression, can read that way when someone else's eyes are doing the viewing.

Something which might have seemed lighthearted... :laugh: becomes the source of conflict... :argue:

The good thing is that we all care passionately about Flight Simming in general and CLIFFS OF DOVER in particular, so we do have one clear point of agreement. If we keep that in mind, any minor differences look unimportant. :-)

Anyway, back to the topic...

How do we get more people playing CoD?

Well, I guarantee with good promotion and information we expect to provide, quite a few new will be firing up their aircraft when the next Team Fusion release comes out. :D

Hopefully they come to stay.

Cheers Buzzsaw

[startrekmike]

I just had a thought while on the DCS subreddit, they have something called "Tuesday night noob" where they essentially set up a large scale training area where there are a large groups of targets at varying degree's of difficulty (ranging from simple trucks to concealed SAM systems), this gives new players not only a safe place to practice but also gives them direct access to more skilled players who spend time their to teach.

Rise of flight also has this in the form of the New wings server, again, it is a area where one who just started can go and get the info they need to do the basics in a relatively safe atmosphere.

Perhaps this would be something that ATAG could look into, perhaps this server does not need to always be up like New wings, perhaps it could just be a specific day of the week (frequent enough so that new players don't have to wait long to use it) and experienced players (I would even be willing to help with what I have learned myself) could hop in and help with everything ranging from CEM to basic combat.

Another thing that might help is actually starting a subreddit that is directly CloD related (as opposed to IL-2 in general), it might even be a good idea to use that subreddit as a way to organize players for online play without having them join a squadron (something that might intimidate new players), as a extension of that, it would be a good way to allow squadrons to non-aggressively recruit new members.

Reddit is a pretty popular place and a lot of flight simmers hang out there, I would be willing to start the subreddit but I am going to need help to get it going.


Lastly, I still think that keeping a eye on the War thunder forums is a good way to grab players, we would be doing them a favor anyway (money wise).


Quick update, I created the subreddit http://www.reddit.com/r/IL2CliffsofDover

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I just had a thought while on the DCS subreddit, they have something called "Tuesday night noob" where they essentially set up a large scale training area where there are a large groups of targets at varying degree's of difficulty (ranging from simple trucks to concealed SAM systems), this gives new players not only a safe place to practice but also gives them direct access to more skilled players who spend time their to teach.

Rise of flight also has this in the form of the New wings server, again, it is a area where one who just started can go and get the info they need to do the basics in a relatively safe atmosphere.

Perhaps this would be something that ATAG could look into, perhaps this server does not need to always be up like New wings, perhaps it could just be a specific day of the week (frequent enough so that new players don't have to wait long to use it) and experienced players (I would even be willing to help with what I have learned myself) could hop in and help with everything ranging from CEM to basic combat.

Another thing that might help is actually starting a subreddit that is directly CloD related (as opposed to IL-2 in general), it might even be a good idea to use that subreddit as a way to organize players for online play without having them join a squadron (something that might intimidate new players), as a extension of that, it would be a good way to allow squadrons to non-aggressively recruit new members.

Reddit is a pretty popular place and a lot of flight simmers hang out there, I would be willing to start the subreddit but I am going to need help to get it going.


Lastly, I still think that keeping a eye on the War thunder forums is a good way to grab players, we would be doing them a favor anyway (money wise).

This is an excellent point.

I read somewhere earlier that War Thunder has quite a booming community on reddit, maybe it would be a good idea to jump on this bandwagon.

~S~

[ATAG_Bliss]

1. Everyone can have an opinion. There is nothing you can do about it. I think the ATAG missions are poor.

They sure can. The difference is unlike you, I don't go to your forums and saying your missions are shit. Neither does anyone else that leaves "feedback" about what they want to see. I do the right thing and keep my mouth shut. People in video games vote with their feet. The same goes for a server. I'm not much of the bragging type, but our popularity speaks for itself.


2. ATAG wrote the time left and objectives script? You mean the one that existed in the IL2 fb warbirds of prey server years before clod even existed? The clod commander used and built by Wild Willie? The one ported to clod?

ATAG wrote the one's you are using on your server. The one's you only started to use and incorporated into your server after you copied my script without credit or even asking if you can do it. The scripts used in the old Commander are in Java not C. So there is no copy pasting code across. Willie's commander also used the server protocal. So if you wanted to ask the sever the timeleft or mission objectives it told you that. We were the only server that randomly displayed the amount of time left in a mission, the server objectives on screen, and had a script built to use ships as objectives, all of which you copied for all your missions after you got the script file. I wasn't going to hand out the script file, so Gruber went behind my back and convinced Colander to get it to him. Since Colander doesn't build missions he didn't see the harm in it. But I didn't want to give it out because I knew you would steal our work and not say anything about it. And guess what, now your scripts and server setup mask ours. What a big surprise.

So just like Gruber's request, I'm asking you to remove my code from your missions.


1. 5./JG27 Gruber made the Dunkirk mission for the SoW server but we gave it to ATAG to stimulate the community and share.

I did all the scripting, made the ships work, made the AI work, made the objectives work, then also made the mission work (not pause for 5 seconds every time someone came close to Dunkirk). In doing that about the only thing not touched in the mission from the part gave to me by Gruber was the spawn areas and AAA guns/defenses. I made about 10 changes/itterations to it to get it working properly. He got upset when I decided to add the 100 octane RAF fighters which were historically there. He sent me a PM asking to not mess with his planesets and if I wouldn't revert it back, to remove it from the server. So instead of dealing with it, I removed it. So now, considering he uses the same planeset I changed it to, the irony is thick as molasses.


2. You claim not to use wild willies clod commander and claim to have made your own. How can we build a script to work with an unkown clod commander? One that apparently is superior and that you will when its perfected share with the community? - its a long wait.

Every single mission file has it's own .cs (script file) you can put into a mission. Just because Willy requires a script to use in conjunction with mission scripts to make his commander work, doesn't mean the other scripting pieces


3. Someone makes a great effort for you and push him out of his own creation and then ridicule him in public. What kind of man are you?

I guess the better man for not stealing someone's work. I guess the better man for not going to your forums and saying your missions are shit. Instead I keep my mouth shut like a normal adult does.


Some other points, a member of ACG made a poly model of a British destroyer which was offered to TF via Bliss which was never accepted. - WHY?

If you would read the updates, then you would also know there is no new (from the floor up) model in modded Clod right now. So to say it's not accepted it kinda funny. You do realize to import/export objects special tools have to be created. If you're daft enough to think you just copy and paste a model in somewhere and expect it to work it's no wonder you think like you do.


Storm of War and ACG offered to help TF in any way possible. We have never been asked to help.

Why would you get asked to help? When I created the idea of TF, I asked for certain types of skills within the community (3d modelers, programmers, artists, level designers etc.) so if you have anyone proficient in any of this area for digital gaming, your saying I'm somehow supposed to be a fortune teller and know this? I asked in the thread I started for people to PM me with those types of skills. Whoever on your team that has those abilities sure as heck haven't gotten a hold of me. I'm not supposed to be getting a hold of you??


Members of Storm of War have made themselves known and available to work with ATAG and stimulate the community but ATAG have never actioned any of the initiatives nor suggested any ACG or SoW can help with.

What has SoW done for the community? What have you released for tools available for everyone? As far as I know, I don't see any downloads for any sort of creation of SoW for the community. The only thing I've witnessed is stealing my scripts and using them, being asked how we make a GUI in game, how we do R&R etc., with absolutely nothing in return.

Last before TF was around, we have the tool to enable swastikas, a track recorder tool that opens up external views, and an external bombsite calculator all for the entire community. Please direct me to your community made tools for everyone to use or anything else you've released to the community wide or simply shut up because you haven't done shit other than try to make yourselves more popular in the most undermining way.


Bliss you are cutting off your nose to spite your face and the only thing you harm is the community in doing so. We either all pull together or we sink. You are the one stopping progress.

Insulting ATAG on our own forums and using our forums as your own special recruiting tool, slapping the hands of ATAG in the 1st place is hardly what I'd call "good for the community". You want to make progress then stop acting like a 5 year old child.


You are the man who knows everything about everything and will state your opinion above everyone else with no regards to logic or reason or consideration of any other argument.

You're right. I will argue and say what I do know. And until someone can offer a counter argument that proves what I said wrong, obviously my logic will win. Getting upset about it isn't my fault. It's easy to win an argument when you know what you are talking about. But on the other end of the spectrum, I won't argue out of pure speculation. I'm a no BS type of guy. I say the truth always, and I mean it.


Lets face it you think you are a big fish, however this is a small pond. I sadly look forward to BoS because you are so set against it will be a place we can escape you if we move there. Such is your toxic personality.

Actually, I've never said that at all. The only people that try to make such a claim are the people that bash another one's efforts to try to make themselves feel better. That's exactly why you can find you insulting me here and my missions, along with Osprey insulting me here and promoting ACG in the same sentence, all the while I've never said a single thing about your missions EVER on your forums. I don't need to. The popularity says it all.


Now undoubtedly you will write up a big rant about how you walk on water and the community revolves around you and then you will lock the thread and or ban us for making these posts of fact contrary to your own imaginary world.

You are right about one thing. I've heard enough insults from you and Osprey concerning ATAG to not welcome you back here again. So good riddance. One day you'll learn how to talk to people and actually argue over the facts instead of going off track to try and save face.

Bye now

[ATAG_Bliss]

Osprey, it's so obvious what you're doing. Holding out the olive leaf with one hand and undermining with the other. Collander's succinct quote says it all. If you want to make peace and reserve the ATAG forum as a place where you can raid players for your server it might be wise for you to apologise to Bliss for your public insult (which he appropriately addressed in public).

Trust me, as I said earlier, I had plenty of PM's asking who this guy was (from people that just joined the forums). From being on TS with 2 new guys, somehow the subject got changed to Osprey. I guess they both received the same exact PM (a paragraph showing them to join Osprey's TS, to register an account on their forum, and to fly on their server).

Now this is just 2 new random guys (the guys that say hello). So if I were to wager a guess, I'd say anyone that joins the ATAG forums and then says hello, gets a re-used PM from Osprey telling them to join another forum, another teamspeak, and fly somewhere else. About as low as it gets in my book.

So yeah OC, it's beyond obvious what his motives are even being here.

[Royraiden]

Dont you guys see what this turned out to be? I did that and you did not kind of thing.Thats not a mature way to deal with this situation Bliss.To be honest nobody insulted you, they gave their opinion, both said that the ATAG missions are poor,you might be offended and could be right in doing so, but that is not an insult or a personal attack.Im by no means on one side or the other and I have respect for Bliss and all the ATAG team as well as Farber and Osprey for their work on ACG but this thread is turning out doing exactly the opposite of what it was intending to do in the first place and theres not just one side to blame here.Also if some members are going to be banned well is your decision, but banning them and then making direct statements to those members now that they cannot reply back is kind of low.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Dont you guys see what this turned out to be? I did that and you did not kind of thing.Thats not a mature way to deal with this situation Bliss.To be honest nobody insulted you, they gave their opinion, both said that the ATAG missions are poor,you might be offended and could be right in doing so, but that is not an insult or a personal attack.Im by no means on one side or the other and I have respect for Bliss and all the ATAG team as well as Farber and Osprey for their work on ACG but this thread is turning out doing exactly the opposite of what it was intending to do in the first place and theres not just one side to blame here.Also if some members are going to be banned well is your decision, but banning them and then making direct statements to those members now that they cannot reply back is kind of low.

Well Royraiden, others that have been around the Clod community have seem this type of stuff happen for quite a while now. It should be pretty simple really. If you have feedback, people can do that as they have been doing since we started ATAG. But from all the work I've done let alone the rest of ATAG and Team Fusion, I'm not going to get insulted by others on the forums I pay for. See how long this type of thing lasts and go to another server forum and insult the owners of the forum.. This is hardly the 1st time. That's why JTDawg and OC commented and +1'd me for my post back. They've seen it all before. You can call it low, but I call stealing other people's work and using it without permission or even acknowledgement is much lower.

Edit: It now also appears Gruber is spreading absolute bullshit again:


Dunkirk was the first mission I created for CloD and I will freely admit the original release had some bugs. It is true that you did the original script but the rest of your statements are total nonsense. I was working through the issues and asked Colander for the script because every time I communicated with you I was left with the impression that I was wasting your time.Then the mission disappeared from ATAG and you stopped communicating with my completely, you even deleted me from Steam friends. I continued to work on the mission; the ships were fixed, the pauses were fixed, the mission was working great. Then the next time I see my mission on the ATAG server it is a bastard creation with the guts ripped out of it. I asked for it's removal because you had taken my creation and made changes to it without my permission. The very thing you now accuse SoW of doing. It had nothing to do with the planeset. Now you release your own Dunkirk with some striking similarities to mine. I'm sure you can claim that my mission was a broken mess but the truth is there for anybody to play on SoW. Vogler created an all new script for the SoW server so nothing was taken from you. Most of the scripts we use are available publicly on the 1C forums, just as many of the ones you used are as well. If one digs at 1C they will find threads by you asking questions about scripting so don't pretend you invented the wheel.

He now claims that ATAG's scripts were publicly available on 1C and that's why he can use them for their server. Yeah, to Gruber, go ahead and have fun searching the 1C forums for a way to destroy ships (Colander made that), a way to to a Timer in mission displayed public on the server (Watchman made that), and a way for the objectives to scroll around on the server as well (Colander made that). All people in ATAG made that. So if you can find these scripts on 1C (like you said) go right ahead and put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise I expect them to be removed from your missions.

As I stated earlier, the only reason you started using those scripts is because you stole them from us. None of this was public. And you did not ask to do so.

Prove it or remove it. Stop spreading Bullshit that you can't back up.

Edit: and since this turned to shit, I'm locking this.

Let this be a reminder to anyone else. If you're going to insult anyone in ATAG or Team Fusion on these forums, you're going to receive a vacation from here. If you can't be polite, respectful, or nice, then keep your mouth shut and go somewhere else.

[_79_dev]

I am disappointed that You answered me this way, what am I thinking now is that You was angry on someone who robed Your apartment and stole Your laptop with most of work was on the hard drive. I suggest You go back to the top of this thread and read topic so You know what it is about, and stay within.

Please do not reply anymore to it unless You can say something constructive. Start to think how to get more community without looking for medals and glorification. Remember at the end of the day we are small community and every pilot is important. That is why I decided to use part of Your script so people can see similarities or some sort of standards and habits which are good and useful, like in old IL2 1946 all servers administrators are using FBDJ and similar web statistics. That is what make us community.

Now, do not get me wrong but I have to answer Your questions.


Who did you ask or where is the credits?
Credits are in the files and documentation.


I did all the scripts for the Dunkirk mission you have.
You have no idea how much scripting is done for missions on SoW server, Your part is only minor addition to MySql stats, dll assemblies, Home chain Radar, Clodcommander etc..etc....



I modified the mission to work (aka fixed it so it didn't have 5 second pauses - made the AI work) and after running it for a few weeks, also added 100oct versions of the RAF planes which caused Gruber to throw a hissy fit and ask for its removal. Even funnier he changed his to have 100oct planes after the reds showed him evidence they were there at a much later date.
community it self verified what way it suppose to looks like


The irony is hilarious.
that makes me smile


I wasn't necessarily attacking you btw.
Yes You did and everyone who involved in any sort of Cliffs of Dover development


For all I know, you were told that Gruber did all the work and it was free game.
I was told that Gruber made mission and ATAG guys helped with scripting it out, so I was happy that time that some sort of cooperation is finally going on.


I see jabs at ATAG regarding that very mission on your own forums. But it wasn't until you had my way of scripting that you soon incorporated the time left, the objectives, and being able to use ships as targets on your server (aka used my scripts).
Thank You very much for making it work, as You can see people are happy to see missions the way they are for the moment. You should be glad that someone wants to use Your ideas unless You want to play Cliffs of Dover on Your own.



You talk about working together, but in the same sentence have never offered us anything.
Cooperation is not only about giving and taking, its also about listening, staying quiet and speak when You have something constructive to say.

Final word.
We have over 400 users registered at SoW forums, they all belong to some sort of historical squadrons. Those are all kind of people, real pilots, historians, soldiers and any kind of specialist. Also every day there are new faces which are very important, this is our target. So if You let theme talk and listen, i repeat listen to Your community You can reach quite far. This is the way IL2 Sturmovik evolved from very firs 1.0 demo version.

Second important thing is that You can't afford loosing or dividing community, we have some other hundreds of people to join from old 1946, If You gonna close threads whenever there is some critics going on.

P.S. I forgot to add one thing... The way You are acting here with closing threads and locking users are against rules of this forum...You should be banned for this.

Best Regards
5./JG27 Vogler

[ATAG_Snapper]

You've disrespected the OP's request to keep this thread on topic and Colander's request to take this to PM. You're not going to use this forum to further your own selfish agenda.

Good bye.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I am disappointed that You answered me this way, what am I thinking now is that You was angry on someone who robed Your apartment and stole Your laptop with most of work was on the hard drive. I suggest You go back to the top of this thread and read topic so You know what it is about, and stay within.

Please do not reply anymore to it unless You can say something constructive. Start to think how to get more community without looking for medals and glorification. Remember at the end of the day we are small community and every pilot is important. That is why I decided to use part of Your script so people can see similarities or some sort of standards and habits which are good and useful, like in old IL2 1946 all servers administrators are using FBDJ and similar web statistics. That is what make us community.

Everything in a forum or in life is cause and effect. This forum is 99% happy and positive. The reason it stays that way is because 99% of the people that continue to post here now how to be respectful, polite, and give feedback in a constructive way. If you think it's constructive to bash someone's efforts and insult them, then you sir have a lot of learning to do. So when someone does that in here, especially to the person that runs this forum (aka the cause), the effect of this is to be bluntly responded to. Now if the person still doesn't get it and continues to "talk back" in a rude and impolite/disrespectful way, that causes again, to be responded to in a blunt uninviting manner. The entire point is, unless you want to be labeled a hypocrite, you had better practice what you preach.


Now, do not get me wrong but I have to answer Your questions.


Credits are in the files and documentation.

Why didn't you ask permission to use our scripts?



You have no idea how much scripting is done for missions on SoW server, Your part is only minor addition to MySql stats, dll assemblies, Home chain Radar, Clodcommander etc..etc....

Sure I do. I've ran FBDJ for 46. Our entire server commander is self made within ATAG. How much coding do you think is involved with making your own stats from scratch compared to modifying another person's stats program already there? How much programming you think is required to make a complete GUI for your server etc?




community it self verified what way it suppose to looks like

Huh?



that makes me smile

And this is the definition of a hypocrite. Your own teamate gets mad when his mission's planesets were changed, and the mission was modified to actually work instead of being a stuttery mess, yet, in the end does the same exact thing to the same mission on his server and changes the planesets that he was so upset about.

Again, that's what a hypocrite is.


Cooperation is not only about giving and taking, its also about listening, staying quiet and speak when You have something constructive to say.

Now you're starting to understand. This is what Osprey and Farber need to pay attention to. Insulting people only stirs the pot and forces people like me to defend myself. So perhaps you could give this little piece of advice to the people that constantly have broken your little rule of thumb on this forum. It would make Snapper's and my job a heck of a lot easier.


Final word.
We have over 400 users registered at SoW forums, they all belong to some sort of historical squadrons. Those are all kind of people, real pilots, historians, soldiers and any kind of specialist. Also every day there are new faces which are very important, this is our target. So if You let theme talk and listen, i repeat listen to Your community You can reach quite far. This is the way IL2 Sturmovik evolved from very firs 1.0 demo version.

I completely agree with you. That's why we have thousands of members here and why this forum is essentially the unofficial home of Cliffs of Dover. It didn't get that way overnight. It got that way out of being a nice, friendly, respectful place to visit, where people who like Cliffs of Dover have come to talk about anything and everything concerning CloD or anything else.


Second important thing is that You can't afford loosing or dividing community, we have some other hundreds of people to join from old 1946, If You gonna close threads whenever there is some critics going on.

I completely agree and have done no such thing. The 2 people that have been removed from this forum are the same people that have caused 99% of the issues this forum has ever had. Hopefully, as said earlier, it will make Snapper's and my job much easier. If you think throwing out 2 trouble makers is splitting "the community", then I don't know what to tell you. I don't think ATAG or the community here is going anywhere. When we receive several PM's almost monthly, from anything from stuff they are doing on the server, to stuff they are posting here (basically being trouble makers), they are better off being drama queens elsewhere.


P.S. I forgot to add one thing... The way You are acting here with closing threads and locking users are against rules of this forum...You should be banned for this.

Best Regards
5./JG27 Vogler

Not hardly. As said before there is a cause and effect for everything. Misbehave or be disrespectful/insulting to someone - in this case, me - results in me responding back in the same tone. The same thing can be said when another admin, Colander specifically asks the conversation to go to PM if you want it to continue. He said this 3 times, and yet Osprey and Farber completely ignored it and kept on posting right past it. That again is being disrespectful and down right rude. Again, they were banned because of the way they act.

If you can find where I jump someone's ass without them 1st causing me to do it, go ahead and quote it or send me a PM. Anyone that actually knows me, knows just how laid back and nice/helpful I am. But if you're going to try to dig into me or ATAG, I'm not going to play nice with you. Again, cause and effect. Once you learn the cause (who starts it) then you'll understand the effect (the guy who finishes it - me)

Just like your response here, and my response to you. Cause and effect. The OP specifically asked to stay on topic and without regard for him, you completely ignore his wishes and make this post here. Which in turn, the effect is me having to defend against what you said.

So I'm pretty sure Lewis appreciates it.

@Lewis - sorry for having to respond to this. I just knew someone couldn't keep their mouth shut. I'll move these posts in a few to keep your thread clean.

@Snapper - you can just move these other posts over to the other closed thread. That way this thread isn't ruined either.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Sadly it looks like they are so upset they have created a bash Bliss/ATAG thread.

So with my latest put your money where your mouth is to Gruber about him stealing our scripts, and Gruber stating they were all scripts found on 1c forums, I asked Gruber to prove it (put your money where your mouth is) and show me the scripts publicly available on 1c. (Because, since we created them, I knew they wouldn't be there)

So in true fashion, Gruber/notafinger! of course just put out absolute BS and couldn't do so, so instead 79_dev came out and finally said they used them without permissoin. So again, proving Gruber to be spreading lies.

So now Farber makes this post:


I agree with some of points you raised there Klem. Especially ones about the community, that is the most important thing we have.

Hopefully peoples memories are not that short that some of you will remember the comments and posts I have made, on 1c, ATAG forums and on here about how important the community is.

For those that dont know or can't remember:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3398

I've also tried promoting the TF when ever I can in support of Bliss's efforts:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=501902#post501902

Also out of respect for ATAG we also didnt put the TF patch on our servers for 24 hours after it was released.


ACG and SoW have offered lots of support and offered to do things for and with TF and ATAG for the community. Often we are met with lip service and ignored.

Here is an image of a 3D model an ACG member made that was offered to TF via Bliss who said he didnt want it. It was made by a profesional 3D modeler:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/Untitled_zps28cd3d36.png

Creating conflict and dividing the community is something I have been trying to avoid and educate ACG and SoW on for some time now and I am sure there will be people who would testify to that fact.

However you can only take so much abuse from Bliss before its not worth it anymore. The blatant lies that he recieves several private messages and emails about me a week for my action on the ATAG forums and server is complete crap. My post count per week and my presence on the ATAG server dont even make it possible. http://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_scratch.png

Lets us not forget, those who were banned were didn't break the forum rules.

It is Bliss that has excommunicated us (Vogler, Gruber, Osprey and myself) - not us that have excommunicated anyone else.


So lets address the part in bold. Not breaking forum rules? When you insult people in ATAG, and then continually insult people in ATAG by not doing what an ATAG admin or moderator asks you to do (go to PM), and that admin asks 3 times as you post past him. That, and you'd have to be an utter fool not to see it, is breaking forum rules.

So when that thread gets locked with a big warning saying to keep the insults out, another thread gets made with another big warning to stay on topic, 79_dev completely ignores this and makes a long post about the old thread in the new thread which was specifically asked to stay on topic. Not only is that breaking forum rules, that's going against the entire reason thread was locked. Again, you've have to be an utter idiot not to see this.

Then Farber goes on to say I didn't want a ship model?

So lets examine my PM in response to his talking about his ship model. Here comes the next lie he's trying to spread.


Hey,

As far as Question #1 - Agree on Africa, but stuff like that will have to come later. We want to get the atmospheric engine and flight models sorted 1st. Without some sort of good flight models / atmospheric engine, the sim is worthless to most.

As far as the maps or other content goes: These can't possibly be added to the sim until the tools are made that can not only view them down to the mesh/DM/and all layers of the 3d model, and then tools made to import and export objects/planes/ships etc. There is no SDK, so these types of tools have to be made. Some of this is 99% complete and has been made for a while now (over a year) with everything except the importing bit done. But there is only one person that can not only reverse engineer the entire CloD code, but also read, understand, and fix it to boot in this entire community. The same goes for these types of tools. This is all done by the same person. Many people can look at SFS files and tweak certain things, but without the ability to get into the core of the programming that runs the sim, it's all for naught.

Same goes for models. Without the ability to create and code a DM/collision model on top of a flight model for a particular item, (again the need for tools), it can't be added.

#2 - That model looks great. We have also built 5 different ships including a battleship with many more on the horizon. We've also been contacted by a WWII tank sim community that has done a whole bunch of models etc., for use in the future.

#3 - I agree the community effort is needed. That is exactly why I went out and asked the community on various forums for help the second I learned there would never be another official patch.

...

So yeah, looks like I don't want your ship model. I even said that right? Wait, no I didn't. I instead said in order to import/export stuff tools had to be made, then in #2 responded about your ship model saying it looks great. Nowhere was anything said about "I hate your ship model blah blah blah"

So please, continue to lie and lie all you want. I'll continue to back up every single thing I've said with facts and evidence pure and simple. If you aren't already made to look a fool with your bash Bliss/ATAG thread, I'll definitely help you out by calling you out on all the false stuff you said.

So continue to be perpetual liars and I'll continue to make you look stupid.

Just a hint: A drama thread isn't helping you guys much :D

Thanks :)

:salute: