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AKA_Recon
Aug-14-2013, 14:33
I had an GTX 560ti 1Gig and it ran this sim well with most options Med to High but with no grass and trees on low with good frame rates with max monitor res 1920x1080. Now I did up grade my card to a GTX760 2gig (cheap) and now have slightly better frame rates with grass now on and trees on high. Sorry if off topic but I think we need to let people know they do not need an I7 chip,16gig of ram, titan video cards and ssd's to play this game.

Ohmie

Let's put this in perspective: I flew IL2:1946 with highest settings with a 512 card without a stutter. I have a i7, 8 gigs of ram.

I come to IL2:CloD and I can't even see the runways on the ground in it ( I didn't even know I couldn't see until a squadmate told me I needed to get on the runway, and said 'what runway'...!) I flew this way for 3 weeks, went out and spent $260 on a 3GB card and now I can see the runways people talked about.

So, although you say to 'let people know they can' - I would say have to say 'ok, you can 'run it'' - but this is a next generation based sim and your IL2:1946 setup most likely won't cut it if you want to enjoy the game.

AKA_Recon
Aug-14-2013, 14:38
Unless you can get 10 or 12 bombers together, even mid-level bombing (5,000-8,000 ft.) probably won't be as efficient as the low level raids.

I would love to. This is what I'm saying though: in the current state, I can't get people to really want to come fly Blenheims in CloD 3x a week. I am a firm believer that have targets suitable to the bomber you have helps. In IL2:1946, we'd create 'factory' and other targets that would be better aligned and could fit into the overall mission objectives. In contrast, if the goal is to hit a tough tank, it would certainly take more of a precision shot.

I do think 100% it would help to have a Wellington :) Again though, I still say, that unless you have a working stabilizer, it's going to be tough to level bomb

Maybe really some of it is the reward probably isn't good enough for the effort was my conclusion. Best to just escort the group of 6 AI Blenheims over to France at this point :)

(I do appreciate your comments Bear)

AKA_Recon
Aug-14-2013, 14:43
I know I responded alot - let me just say though I appreciate this forum exist to provide feedback. And if I sound critical, I don't intend too. My goal is the goal of this thread 'how to get more people to fly this game'.

I really like it, I honestly am fairly new to it - I was one of those who bought it many years ago, thought it was really bad, and it collected cobwebs. I came back, installed TF mods, etc...and nearly fell out of my chair.

I want to help it grow too, I think there is room for improvement, but as a developer myself, I certainly understand it's not easy doing all this as a hobby - it's very time consuming for the guys here.

but again, thanks for the responses, and I just hope we can continue to grow the community and make it a better game. I know we have guys not flying it yet, and I believe I know some of their reasons. We could probably interview them and learn why :)

Dutch
Aug-14-2013, 14:54
your IL2:1946 setup most likely won't cut it if you want to enjoy the game.

I take your point recon, but I used to run '46 with a single core pentium 4 @ 2.8GHz, 2gigs of RAM and a ATI 3850 512mb (agp, it's still in my cupboard if anyone wants it, :D ).

It ran '46 fine. I doubt it'd run anything released in the last 5 yrs too well. The spec I have now runs RoF maxed out, apart from supersampling. It won't run Cliffs maxed out, but most settings are High/original. 3gig cards aren't essential by any stretch.

Old IL2 flyers were always quite happy to manage AA settings etc. from their cards software. Now this seems to be taboo with Cliffs. I don't use the game's AA. SSAO is a killer, but looks only slightly different, turn it off. All the old school 46ers were more than happy to take on board any new tweaks to their card settings or their conf.ini file, but those same people seem to be reluctant to do the same with Cliffs, and just damn the game instead.

My EVGA GTX570 1.2gig is fine. The reluctant 'old school' just need to apply the same attitude to CoD as they did to '46.

As for level bombing in the Blenny, it needs a multicrew with good comms, otherwise go in fast and low, as the real Blenny drivers did. :thumbsup:

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-14-2013, 18:58
I would love to. This is what I'm saying though: in the current state, I can't get people to really want to come fly Blenheims in CloD 3x a week. I am a firm believer that have targets suitable to the bomber you have helps. In IL2:1946, we'd create 'factory' and other targets that would be better aligned and could fit into the overall mission objectives. In contrast, if the goal is to hit a tough tank, it would certainly take more of a precision shot.

I do think 100% it would help to have a Wellington :) Again though, I still say, that unless you have a working stabilizer, it's going to be tough to level bomb

Maybe really some of it is the reward probably isn't good enough for the effort was my conclusion. Best to just escort the group of 6 AI Blenheims over to France at this point :)

(I do appreciate your comments Bear)

I tend to fly the Blenheim when I fly online (I guess I'm not very good in fighter -I find it hard to spot the enemy on my rig and settings)

The major issues with the Blenheim is the bomb sight. Has anyone managed to hit anything when level bombing above 5000 feet? (my record is about 3000 and that has only been in perfect conditions with no flack or fighters :sigh: ) If a workable bomb sight was introduced it would make Bombing a more attractive option.

In my opinion, if a flyable Wellington was going to be introduced a LOT of work would have to be put into an accurately modeled the bomb site. The idea of dive bombing or skip bombing in a Wellington just doesn't seam right.

Cheers!

Roblex
Aug-15-2013, 02:31
With the number of posts mentioning the Blenheim level stabiliser 'not working', I suspect there is a misunderstanding. The blenheim has no level stabiliser because the real blenny had no level stabiliser. Similarly, the blue bombers do have autopilot etc. because the real ones did. Complaining that the blenheim needs a 'workable' bombsight falls into the same category, it is as easy or as hard to use as a real blenheim bombsight.

As someone who enjoys bombing I do sympathise and wish something could be done but I just want to make it clear that what is being asked for is not a 'fix' of bugged code, it is an unhistoric bodge in the same vein as asking for CEM to be turned off. There is certainly an argument for saying that the blenheim was not designed to be flown solo so we need AI to hold the plane steady while we are in the bomb-aimer position but the designers were of the opinion that if you need a pilot then get another player to be the pilot. Unfortunately that works out a little unfair on the reds, especially when the numbers in the server are low.

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-15-2013, 06:01
Complaining that the blenheim needs a 'workable' bombsight falls into the same category, it is as easy or as hard to use as a real blenheim bombsight.


Have you actually used the in game Blenheim bomb sight at altitude? A tutorial would be much appreciated.

My major issue with using the Blenheim bomb site at altitude is not being able to change the bomb aimers head position so you can not approach the target straight and level and remain in visual contact with the target (due to the canopy framing and console) until you are right on it. In real life you would raise or lower your head a bit until you could see it. Having 6DOF in the bombers compartment would make it easier but unfortunately it's not modeled in game.

DUI
Aug-15-2013, 08:06
Have you actually used the in game Blenheim bomb sight at altitude? A tutorial would be much appreciated.
Did you see the video tutorial that vranac postet above? Looks very informative to me - though I never have flown a Blenheim... :recon:

9./JG52 Ziegler
Aug-15-2013, 08:44
As long as Team Fusion is continuing with their great effort and results Cliffs of Dover is very much alive to me. With 10 new plane variants (as far as I know the Beaufighter even a completely new player-controllable plane) to be expected for the second Team Fusion patch and topics like controllable flak and tanks, new ground and ship models, spring/autumn/winter seasons, etc. there will be plenty of new content. And in another patch to come (the third?) there are even plans for a Malta scenario! :nw:

+1 to that DUI. Regardless of how good or not BOS is, I will still have CLoD on my SSD. It only gets better and has been a frustrating yet fantastic ride. I hope to be saying this 5 years from now.:thumbsup:

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-15-2013, 08:46
Did you see the video tutorial that vranac postet above? Looks very informative to me - though I never have flown a Blenheim... :recon:

Yes I did, one of the first ones I watched when trying to get the hang of the Blenheim and the tutorial is good. Did you see the altitude that he bombed from? 3100 feet! Once you get to high altitude the issue is trying to see the target from the bombardiers position during the approach run.

I would really have liked to see his setup for the higher approaches. Notice how the higher he got the earlier he had to release, the sight didn't indicate the drop position.

Personally I like the more aggressive low level bomb runs. Low level is where CoD really stands out from the pack, and as Ziegler just pointed out COD is only going to get better and better.

gavagai
Aug-15-2013, 09:06
Why so much fuss over flying offensive Blenheim missions for the RAF in a BoB sim? If anything we need more pilots flying the German bombers and attack aircraft.

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-15-2013, 09:13
Why so much fuss over flying offensive Blenheim missions for the RAF in a BoB sim? If anything we need more pilots flying the German bombers and attack aircraft.

Quite right! Bombers are bigger and that is good when you have my gunnery skills! :)

SoW Reddog
Aug-15-2013, 10:00
Why so much fuss over flying offensive Blenheim missions for the RAF in a BoB sim? If anything we need more pilots flying the German bombers and attack aircraft.

Because the mission designs so far have meant that both sides have to be offensive. I agree, it's daft (although I don't mind a once in a while low level Blennie sortie now I know how to get them off the ground and bomb drop). Seems to have been an artificial construct to create "balance" which always cracks me up in any war based game. War isn't and shouldn't ever be balanced, otherwise you're doing it wrong.

AKA_Recon
Aug-15-2013, 14:52
As long as Team Fusion is continuing with their great effort and results Cliffs of Dover is very much alive to me. With 10 new plane variants (as far as I know the Beaufighter even a completely new player-controllable plane) to be expected for the second Team Fusion patch and topics like controllable flak and tanks, new ground and ship models, spring/autumn/winter seasons, etc. there will be plenty of new content. And in another patch to come (the third?) there are even plans for a Malta scenario! :nw:

I didn't realize this, that is fantastic to hear - thanks!

AKA_Recon
Aug-15-2013, 14:59
With the number of posts mentioning the Blenheim level stabiliser 'not working', I suspect there is a misunderstanding. The blenheim has no level stabiliser because the real blenny had no level stabiliser. Similarly, the blue bombers do have autopilot etc. because the real ones did. Complaining that the blenheim needs a 'workable' bombsight falls into the same category, it is as easy or as hard to use as a real blenheim bombsight.

As someone who enjoys bombing I do sympathise and wish something could be done but I just want to make it clear that what is being asked for is not a 'fix' of bugged code, it is an unhistoric bodge in the same vein as asking for CEM to be turned off. There is certainly an argument for saying that the blenheim was not designed to be flown solo so we need AI to hold the plane steady while we are in the bomb-aimer position but the designers were of the opinion that if you need a pilot then get another player to be the pilot. Unfortunately that works out a little unfair on the reds, especially when the numbers in the server are low.

I see, yes. I wasn't really thinking in terms of a real Blen having a level stab. Perhaps I just never really considered this since in IL2:1946 you couldn't have a separate bombardier, and I suppose now you can.

I still think having it is essential though, as although it would be fantastic to always think I'll have a crew of humans every night I want to go fly online, I think it's rather unrealistic to think that would happen. I have no problem with having a 'level stab' option for planes with bomb sights - that is what I was referring too.

So, can I assume all the German bombers are the same - they are expecting to have a separate human be the pilot and another the bombardier ?

With the topic being to improve and draw people in, I'm still saying that these obstacles to bombing aren't helping the cause.

Roblex
Aug-15-2013, 17:01
So, can I assume all the German bombers are the same - they are expecting to have a separate human be the pilot and another the bombardier ?


Umm No. That is why I said it was a bit unfair on the red pilots. In real life the JU88 and He111 had full autopilots while the 110 had a cruder autopilot that used just the rudder to fly a particular bearing but not hold the altitude. The sad truth is that the Germans put a bit more thought into the ergonomics of flying while the Brits just put the bare essentials in wherever there was a space with no thought for ease of use.
Just take a look at the way the German aircraft have a compass conveniently placed for easy viewing while the British aircraft hide it behind the stick :-)

LuseKofte
Aug-15-2013, 19:56
One very important thing regarding level bombing. With the TF mod, it seems that Indicated airspeed is what should be plugged into the bombsight as opposed True airspeed.

Happy Hunting

Bear Pilot

What I have spent hours and hoursfiguring out why my bombs where going too short. I know bombing from 300 mtrs isnt very effective but never the less I figured it had to be ingame wind and such.
Well I ty again

Bear Pilot
Aug-15-2013, 22:36
What I have spent hours and hoursfiguring out why my bombs where going too short. I know bombing from 300 mtrs isnt very effective but never the less I figured it had to be ingame wind and such.
Well I ty again

Jaeger, do you mean in the Lofte bombsights on the 88 and 111? I should have clarified, what I was referring to was the Blenny's bombsight. To explain the dropping short problem you're having (if you mean in the German medium bombers), try aiming the crosshairs at the very end of the string you want to drop. People much more clever than I, like Keller, have tested it and if all the variables are plugged in it seems to be most accurate.

From what I and others have seen IAS is much more accurate than TAS in the Blenny. I think it may have something to do with atmosphere changes or lack thereof, I'm not sure what exactly I just feel like I remember TF changing or removing something in the first release. ***I could very easily be wrong and if I am please correct me.

However, I don't think the Lofte bombsight was touched in the first release. So simply increasing the speed input in the sight until the crosshairs stop moving and plugging in the correct altitude above the target assuming you're on Autopilot-22 with the crosshairs on the far end of your target i.e. where you want the last bomb to hit, you should be fine.

So just to sum it up from experiences and information I've gathered.

Keys to level bombing

Blenheim bombing: IAS not TAS

Bombing with the Lofte bombsight: Crosshairs in bombsight centered where you want the last bomb to drop.

*The 111's bombsight seems to be calibrated to drop most accurately with the 250 kg type J

*The 88's bombsight seems to be calibrated to drop most accurately with the 50 kg type J

*Also from high altitudes the separation placed between bombs should be set to < 5 meters or preferably 0 as they spread out in flight a considerable distance.

On a big target like an airfield though you don't have to worry about extreme accuracy so the different trajectories of 50 kg and 250 kg bombs an 88 can drop simultaneously is negligible :D

I hope some of that helped at least, if not feel free to ask for a more coherent response! :thumbsup:

Happy Hunting

Bear Pilot

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-17-2013, 08:01
Getting back on track here....I think that what we have done so far has had an effect on population....We have new players regularly coming to the forums to introduce them selves and we chat to new players in the server on a daily basis....

We have turned around Amazon reviews, we have hit youtube with videos for CLOD in a big way, we have influenced independent Sim websites, we have created an environment which is very welcoming to new players including dogfight maps (eg.Dunkirk), The seeds we have planted here will still take time to grow however they are secure now that we have sewn them.

Having said all that..I still have concerns...We have put a lot of work into this little campaign and the results have still been at best minimal....We see 30 - 40 players in the evenings european times but then the numbers dwindle at North and South America times...The original IL-2 use to have high populations at these times...It was a nightmare for us europeans as we use to have to stay up all night in order to catch the fun....hehe..but worth it

So how can we make CLOD more appealing to our cousins across the pond...?...Do you think that this is actually a problem?...or..in general what else can we do?..

...lew...

ATAG_Deacon
Aug-17-2013, 09:04
~S~ Lew,

I can understand the drop off over here...it's the last few weeks of summer. Many folks are trying to get in as much outdoor activity as possible. Speaking for myself, between work, kids, motorcycling, and life it is sometimes hard to get on and fly. I'm usually on quite early in the morning, get my day off to a good start.

You'll see an increase in North American flyers on the server after our Labor Day, which is September 2nd this year.

Just my opinion of course...

~S~

Deacon

Talisman
Aug-17-2013, 15:36
By having BoB maps that allow pilots to fly the most common Spitfire version of 1940, rather than only providing earlier superseded versions. Come on chaps, surely we can get the historical plane sets correct. It's confusing for the new chaps and frustrating for old gits like me.

The current Homeplate map is not providing the Spitfire version with a Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel (CloD designated Spit 1a 100 Octane). This version was the mainstay of the Spitfire force in 1940 and is the expected version to always be available for BoB when flying Red. It took part in the BoF during the evacuation at Dunkirk and operated from start to finish in the BoB. The Hurricane is available with the same Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel, but not the Spit.

AKA_Recon
Aug-17-2013, 15:54
Getting back on track here....I think that what we have done so far has had an effect on population....We have new players regularly coming to the forums to introduce them selves and we chat to new players in the server on a daily basis....

We have turned around Amazon reviews, we have hit youtube with videos for CLOD in a big way, we have influenced independent Sim websites, we have created an environment which is very welcoming to new players including dogfight maps (eg.Dunkirk), The seeds we have planted here will still take time to grow however they are secure now that we have sewn them.

Having said all that..I still have concerns...We have put a lot of work into this little campaign and the results have still been at best minimal....We see 30 - 40 players in the evenings european times but then the numbers dwindle at North and South America times...The original IL-2 use to have high populations at these times...It was a nightmare for us europeans as we use to have to stay up all night in order to catch the fun....hehe..but worth it

So how can we make CLOD more appealing to our cousins across the pond...?...Do you think that this is actually a problem?...or..in general what else can we do?..

...lew...

So, AKA is a larger primarily NA based squadron. We tend to bring 5 - 10 typically a night/every other night.

Statistically, that means only a fraction of our overall squadron size . We run a IL2:1946 war and bring at least 30 pilots for that event on friday and sunday nights.

Although it might seem to be 'off track' - if you could that, it means on average we *could* have 30 guys show up, but only 5-10.

Most those guys when I say 30-40 are showing up for a war event where its an ongoing war that is played 2 to 3 times a week. It's organized, stats are kept, mission progress is kept and many different war campaigns have been built. This war was started by me nearly 10+ years ago in concept and then evolved over the last few years where we have a server component that tracks and times the missions as well as log parsers to track results. But the main thing is a community is built, AKA and friends (ie. 352nd, 418th, etc..) come and fly together often.

We do fly around 5 in a CloD war, but honestly, it's tougher for us as that war is not in our timezone and is right in our afternoon which is tough for those with families, etc...

Many of the pilots continue to fly 1946 for it's play selection and variety, as HSFX has continued to grow the sim. Additionally, many lack the machines to fly CloD. It takes at least a 1GB video card to run it - and most would need around 2GB.

I know internally, I'm always inviting more to come fly it, but as I said, I think not everyone has the system to handle it.

I do know as well, visibility has been a complaint. Internally, we are hoping patch improvements to visibility will draw more pilots out.

I'm not sure if there could be an event based in NA timezone that was more organized that would draw in more people ? I know in the IL:1946 Forgotten Skies war I ran, at it's heyday, we had 80-100 people show up 3x a week to fly in it. The community fractured though and different groups went off to do their own thing - as it's typically that many had their own ideas on what they wanted. Some wanted dead is dead, others didn't, some always argued over the planesets, or the map setup - it was hard to keep that large of a group happy. Still that said, these types of organized wars tend to bring out the full real serious pilots - I know they are out there, all I can guess is many are just content to fly IL2:1946 - I wonder how many know what an improvement IL2:CloD has done.

I wonder if interest starts to wane when there is only one map/scenario to really fly in. I know I could fly it for a long time and be happy, but not others are that content.

Side note: I used to play ROF online as well. And I've noticed the same thing in NA timezone - we used to fly on Les Hellequins or Syndicate, and would get many 20 on there a night. In European times zones, they would have 40+ a night. After a year off, I came back, and now days there are only people playing some 'clown' map where it's just a free for all - maybe 10-12 at most fly it and the other servers are empty.

I can't be sure, but I wonder at times if the problem is that BoB, Russian, and early WW1 is just not appealing to the North American crowd the same way it is in Europe and Russia.

I would guess if we had p51s, p47s, p38, FW190s, B17s, B25s, etc... if we would get a larger crowd - actually more than a 'guess' - I know for a fact, we'd pull a much larger crowd in North America.

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-17-2013, 18:13
As always a big thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on this matter....The points that are made here will ultimately benefit our community....and we all thank you for that...

They also make fascinating reading

~S~

Dutch
Aug-17-2013, 23:13
'I can't be sure, but I wonder at times if the problem is that BoB, Russian, and early WW1 is just not appealing to the North American crowd the same way it is in Europe and Russia.'


Uh, surely you're not suggesting that the lack of North American involvement in these theatres and stages of both World Wars is preventing American Combat Flight sim fans from playing the games, are you?

Britain wasn't involved at Midway, but I've had many a good romp in old IL2 '46 (or pacific fighters, as some call it) flying a Dauntless. Not to mention flying a Sturmovik, or a Lagg-3 or La5 or La-7 on the Eastern front.

Although I never could get on with American fighters, apart from the Wildcat. They can only fly in straight lines. No fun there, if you ask me. Which you haven't. :D

Roblex
Aug-18-2013, 02:18
Most those guys when I say 30-40 are showing up for a war event where its an ongoing war that is played 2 to 3 times a week. It's organized, stats are kept, mission progress is kept and many different war campaigns have been built. This war was started by me nearly 10+ years ago in concept and then evolved over the last few years where we have a server component that tracks and times the missions as well as log parsers to track results. But the main thing is a community is built, AKA and friends (ie. 352nd, 418th, etc..) come and fly together often.

Is there a 'game' reason that stops CLOD having these type of events or is it purely the manpower and logistics? There used to be something in IL2, was it 'Scorched Earth'?, that allocated each registered squadron a mission set at a certain time in an ongoing campaign that you were free to play at whatever time was convenient during the week (or half week?) so timezones were not a problem. You were playing against AI but once all the squadrons had played their turn, all the results were collated and the next map and set of missions were generated and issued. I think all the players were Allied so there was no conflict between what your squadron saw happen between 10-12 on Aug15th 1942 over Caen and what an Axis squad did in the same area at the same time. All the squads had missions in different places so there was no conflict there either. It was quite complex though. There was a lot of AI activity going on outside your mission so you could stumble across an axis squadron or a convoy during your mission and everything you saw and did was fed into the next set of missions so , for example, if on the way to attack an Axis airfield you overflew an Axis convoy and di not stop to attack it then you or another squad might be tasked with going after it next which in game time is only a few hours later. It was all automated so there was no need for someone to examine all the mission results and adjust the map and make up the new ones by hand. It was probably tied into the Dynamic Campaign Generator...which I am just realising is the reason why we can't do this in CLOD yet :doh:

indyscout
Aug-18-2013, 04:29
By having BoB maps that allow pilots to fly the most common Spitfire version of 1940, rather than only providing earlier superseded versions. Come on chaps, surely we can get the historical plane sets correct. It's confusing for the new chaps and frustrating for old gits like me.

The current Homeplate map is not providing the Spitfire version with a Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel (CloD designated Spit 1a 100 Octane). This version was the mainstay of the Spitfire force in 1940 and is the expected version to always be available for BoB when flying Red. It took part in the BoF during the evacuation at Dunkirk and operated from start to finish in the BoB. The Hurricane is available with the same Rotol prop and 100 Octane fuel, but not the Spit.
Read over the Homplate thread, the function that unlocks planes as the battle goes on has been disabled, though I believe it has been turned back on today. So the 100 octane has been unavailable because of that, same reason the Germans don't have access to the E3/B.



AKA_Recon makes a very strong point about the NA players. During the usual NA "prime time" there is 20 people at most. I have talked to people from my old warthunder squadron about Clod. Many said they just simply aren't interested because of the lack of planes, mainly the American ones like the P-51, and just don't care about the BoB because the U.S. wasn't heavily involved at that point. It seems like a long shot, but hopefully in the future we will be able to expand from the BoB to other periods in the war. I would certainly be willing to help with the assets for the planes. But only time will tell if we will be able to accomplish this. But come on we all want mass B-17 formations and Lancaster night raids right :D.
I can dream I guess.
-Indy

gavagai
Aug-18-2013, 09:46
'I can't be sure, but I wonder at times if the problem is that BoB, Russian, and early WW1 is just not appealing to the North American crowd the same way it is in Europe and Russia.'


Uh, surely you're not suggesting that the lack of North American involvement in these theatres and stages of both World Wars is preventing American Combat Flight sim fans from playing the games, are you?

Britain wasn't involved at Midway, but I've had many a good romp in old IL2 '46 (or pacific fighters, as some call it) flying a Dauntless. Not to mention flying a Sturmovik, or a Lagg-3 or La5 or La-7 on the Eastern front.

Although I never could get on with American fighters, apart from the Wildcat. They can only fly in straight lines. No fun there, if you ask me. Which you haven't. :D

Rise of Flight is notorious for poor American participation in multiplayer. For example, during the daytime (here in North America) Syndicate is full of Europeans, but in the evening it empties. Recently the New Wings Wargrounds server has ok attendance during the evening, but it is really an air-quake server, and at least some of the people there are from Australia or New Zealand. Many of the Americans I do see in RoF are more interested in flying the British and German aircraft than the French stuff, even though the latter is what we actually flew.

Even more surprising is that Jason said RoF has more North American customers than European. The Americans and Canadians just don't frequent multiplayer the way the Europeans do. So, it seems to me that Americans are very interested in combats in which the United States did not fully participate, but there's a bit of stage fright when it comes to putting yourself out there to be shot at by real competition.

On the other hand, Aces High 2 (the mmo air combat sim/game) has its highest attendance during North American prime time. For those of us who were into online air combat in the '90s, Warbirds and Aces High were it. A lot of these people are still loyal to Aces High and you'll have a hell of a time convincing them to leave it. Despite the arcadish aspects of it, the flight models are still pretty decent (better than 1946 imo), and there is something to be said for having 400+ people on a single map.

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-21-2013, 15:42
We are getting a few new folks coming into the forums saying that they have bought CLOD because of the youtube vids....Seems the vids are working some magic....Kazamm!

DUI
Aug-21-2013, 19:33
I also noticed that there are quite some new players on the server. Great!

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Aug-21-2013, 19:48
We are getting a few new folks coming into the forums saying that they have bought CLOD because of the youtube vids....Seems the vids are working some magic....Kazamm!

Thanks very much for your efforts Lewis. :thumbsup:

They are much appreciated. :respect:

Chivas
Aug-23-2013, 17:14
This has probably been mentioned but.

TF has been very good adjusting the FM, Effects, etc, which will no doubt bring a lot of players to COD. But you want to keep them there, especially offliners. Another feature which I know is very difficult is the AI and Offline missions/campaigns. I was wondering if Heinkills, very good Redux campaigns with their adjusted AI levels, could be apart of the TF download. Anyone who buys COD because of TF's updates will be introduced to a much better campaign/AI levels, right from the start, and not be immediately turned off by that aspect. I know people will be able to download these campaigns later, but some might shut down the sim, and not bother, after playing the original campaign.

1lokos
Aug-23-2013, 21:01
This has probably been mentioned but.

But you want to keep them there, especially offliners. Another feature which I know is very difficult is the AI and Offline missions/campaigns. I was wondering if Heinkills, very good Redux campaigns with their adjusted AI levels, could be apart of the TF download. Anyone who buys COD because of TF's updates will be introduced to a much better campaign/AI levels, right from the start, and not be immediately turned off by that aspect. I know people will be able to download these campaigns later, but some might shut down the sim, and not bother, after playing the original campaign.

Good point here.

Quoting recent discussion about should as AI to be in il-2 BoS.



...Cliffs of dover where again a focus on single player wasn't present (what was there a focus on really) so they used the cheating AI that doesn't follow the same restrictions as the player and problems with CLoD's AI range between impossible maneuvers such as doing a dozen barrel rolls per second, firing off all of their ammo in the start of a battle or flying in a straight line and ignoring the player shooting them in the rear.

The first (and bad) impression of CLoD AI leave is exactly this: some done infinite "F-16" roll, some pressing trigger until wast all ammo...

What can be done (without delving into the subject, ie game code) easly: repack the default missions with AI skill edited (someone already did this, post the file in 1c or SimHQ forum) removing the levels Rookie and Ace. So AI dont do more "F-16" rolls, dont sniper at impossible angles, and dont more press the trigger as "garden hose": do short burts and attack in bounces.

Continued to be problems, such as "RTB mode" that ignore player shotting in his 6, orders, etc.

Sokol1

1lokos
Aug-23-2013, 21:11
'I can't be sure, but I wonder at times if the problem is that BoB, Russian, and early WW1 is just not appealing to the North American crowd the same way it is in Europe and Russia.'


Uh, surely you're not suggesting that the lack of North American involvement in these theatres and stages of both World Wars is preventing American Combat Flight sim fans from playing the games, are you?




Some know member of il-2 community already stat this: don have interest in CloD just because BoB is a British matter...

And base I what I see in il-2 BoS Rssian forum the Russians dont like of CLoD because is a "hardcore" game.

I thought: Seems that now Luthie/DCS can try make a WWII game starting in Poland invasion (the date of the announcement suggests)...
Good, but the correct move wold be: "European 1944" with P-51, P-47, P-38, Fw-190 etc.
Is probable what the majority of simmers want: American planes and Luftwaffe latte war.

My preference is early war and crap planes, like Wildcats, Vals... :thumbsup:

Sokol1

DUI
Aug-24-2013, 19:22
Guys, I wanted to write an article about Cliffs of Dover on the German-speaking Wikipedia. Currently there is no reference to it except for a single sentence in the IL-2 Sturmovik article. But as I just learned a new topic has to pass a relevance check before it is published on Wikipedia. From the relevance criteria for a computer game (i. e. verifiable innovations regarding game or programming mechanics, high media awareness) I regarded Cliffs of Dover to best fit the requirement "complex/expensive production".

I am already in a discussion with Wikipedia's "moderators" and now have to find verifiable sources to back my statement that it probably was the most complex/time consuming/expensive flight simulation at the time of its release in 2011.
As my own internet research did not lead to any official sources (i. e. in game magazines) that I can use and as I only can point out the long development time (first official release date was supposed to be in november 2006): Can anyone of you help me out with an English reference?

Btw: Why is the English Wikipedia article of Cliffs of Dover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IL-2_Sturmovik:_Cliffs_of_Dover) in such a bad state? Isn't there someone having to much time and wanting to pimp it? :lecture:

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-24-2013, 21:53
You are the first to mention Wiki on this issue as far as I know......I wonder what we can do to update it on there....Good Call DUI....Good idea..~S~

Can we influence the wiki article....?...Can we make our own Wiki article...?

MadTommy
Aug-25-2013, 05:36
Firstly, apologies, i have not read through this entire post.

I'll tell you why i don't play much, certainly not as much as i'd like to.

95% of the time when I want to fly I hope on to ATAG server, there are maybe 15 or so others. I'll spawn get airborne and fly off to find some action. I'll fly a patrol for 45 mins often seeing nothing. I'll land, log off and think well that was a little too much like reality!

For folk like me that only have limited time to fly this is simply not conducive to giving up precious time to fly CloD. I need more action.

I love full reality sims, but there needs to be a compromise.

I'd love to see missions that are more concentrated, with action taking place in a narrow corridor and area. I understand this will not appeal to all, but casual flyers like me simply do not have time or patience to fly a combat sim and see no combat. I think this will see casual players flying longer and more often.

Cheers.

ATAG_Bliss
Aug-25-2013, 06:09
You must be flying in completely the wrong spots then. The large majority of the AI I put into missions actually follow the same path as they cross the channel. Then at the last moment they will turn to go bomb w/e target they are assigned to. If you want to get into the action so to speak. Just go between Calais and Hawkinge (straight line between the 2) and you'll always find people there. I can't believe you are flying around 45 minutes and not finding anyone. The AI are always going accross the channel, let alone the players.

Shoot down enough of your enemy's bombers and fighters will definitely come looking for you also.

Continu0
Aug-25-2013, 06:26
or in the case of the dunkirk-map, just circle around calais....

I have bad luck too sometimes, but in 90% of sorties I find someone... and if I don`t, I dive down to hawkinge (2km), where you always find something...

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-25-2013, 06:35
The other option would be jump in a Blenheim and the Blue fighters come looking for you!

Last time I took a Blennie for a trip to the South of France in search of new seasons wine and some pâté de foie gras for the officers mess and a 109 tracked me down and shot me (How Rude!). It would have taken him about 20 minutes flight from the nearest Blue base to get me!

DUI
Aug-25-2013, 06:39
Can we influence the wiki article....?...Can we make our own Wiki article...?
Yes, we can! This is how Wikipedia works - really everyone can write new articles or adapt existing ones. Though, if the changes will stay published depends on aspects like validity, relevance and neutrality.

MadTommy
Aug-25-2013, 07:12
You must be flying in completely the wrong spots then. The large majority of the AI I put into missions actually follow the same path as they cross the channel. Then at the last moment they will turn to go bomb w/e target they are assigned to. If you want to get into the action so to speak. Just go between Calais and Hawkinge (straight line between the 2) and you'll always find people there. I can't believe you are flying around 45 minutes and not finding anyone. The AI are always going accross the channel, let alone the players.

Shoot down enough of your enemy's bombers and fighters will definitely come looking for you also.


or in the case of the dunkirk-map, just circle around calais....

I have bad luck too sometimes, but in 90% of sorties I find someone... and if I don`t, I dive down to hawkinge (2km), where you always find something...

No doubt a lot of the problem lies within...i.e my fault. But this is a too common occurrence for casual flyers and is a real issue.

I've had some great sorties, with lots of action.. but too often i find nothing.

The Dunkirk mission is a lot better, unfortunately it has not been on when i've logged in recently.

I'm not complaining in any way.. I just wanted to highlight why i often choose another sim over CloD and i'm sure it is the same for others.

ATAG_Snapper
Aug-25-2013, 08:13
I have a feeling that with the upcoming TF patch there will be more encounters with the improved visibility of contacts. Not dodging the issue, but at present I would bet there are planes passing planes unseen. Even distant furballs can be difficult to pick up, especially at a different altitude to what you're flying.

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-25-2013, 08:19
You realise how many contacts you miss when you use the 'TrackEditor'.....and then turn on the icons in your mission....Its frightening....I'm flying past contacts really close by, underneath me usually....I'm excited to see how it works after the patch...

Its a good point MadTommy....altho....the servers with icons are never as populated as the full real are so I guess thats a point too

Royraiden
Aug-25-2013, 08:30
I agree with Snapper, after the next patch, as it has been said, spotting contacts and more importantly tracking them will be a lot easier.Also as Lewis said, sometimes you miss contacts near you just because you are looking at the wrong side. Im pretty sure this happened in real life as well.

Mysticpuma
Aug-25-2013, 09:46
Personally speaking, the main reason I don't spend much time on CloD (apart from TF work) is due to the lack of offline play.
I realise that many players like online play, but generally 90% of my time is playing offline and there is such little progress there that it limits my enjoyment.
The main fix (IMHO) needed is working Ai commands, but as we know, these are irrelevant to online play where most of the focus seems to be with patching.
I would say that giving offline players a reason to buy CloD and then patch it should be a point of focus for the next patch because the new TF v4.00 patch fixes and improves so much for the online players (especially the LoD fix!).
I think that the possible inclusion of a Dynamic Campaign Generator will help greatly, especially if it can be used eventually to make a Scorched Earth system like online players had in the original IL2, but a DCG for offline players, WITHOUT working Radio Commands, will, I feel, be a really frustrating experience.

So basically, throw some food out for the off liners to feast on too :)

Cheers, MP

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-25-2013, 11:09
I'd just like to say something here....about online and offline play....

I don't fly offline...I think I have about 40 mins offline with CLOD...and before that in IL-2 1946 I only flew offline when I was working away from home and had no internet connection...So I am naive to the offline community and out of touch...

There is a question that I would like to have some input on.....I know that what helped no end with the longevity of the original IL2 series was a healthy community of online play and servers....Because it was easy to become involved and enjoy something for its social aspect and that does drive a community and keep it alive...There were many different squads playing the original IL2 and battling on a daily basis in servers on Hyperlobby for many years..it was healthy and competitive...In other genres it seems to be the same...Games like 'World Of Tanks' and 'War Thunder' thrive on multiplayer online competition....So for me it has always been better to target the online players and get them motivated than to motivate the offliners because I feel they are better equiped to keep this sim alive and to populate it........But am I wrong?...If all we had was the offline community would it still bring with it longevity?....Or are both as important?....

What say you?

Chivas
Aug-25-2013, 11:20
I agree with Snapper, the new LOD's should make a huge difference in finding action. Also the use of TeamSpeak is very helpful. You don't need to talk to anyone, but you can easily find out where the action is by just listening. I don't mean listening to the other sides comms.

I might tag along flying top cover the best I can, or do a solo Jabo run to the targets. Plenty of action there, fighters usually found my flak damaged aircraft rather quickly after the target run. I seldom talked much on comms because I had difficulty seeing the contacts they were talking about, to be much help, but atleast I was in the general area of the action. ;)

Mysticpuma makes some very good points about the AI, unfortunately its probably one of the most difficult tasks for the modders.

Roblex
Aug-25-2013, 13:57
...If all we had was the offline community would it still bring with it longevity?....Or are both as important?....

What say you?

Personally I stopped playing offline games at least ten years ago. My brain keeps telling me "you are competing against some lines of code. What a waste of time!" so I lose interest. Nearly every game I have dabbled in over the last 10-15 years has been online eg Dawn Of Aces, Warbirds, Aces High, WW2-OL, EQ, LOTRO, PE (I use initials for those last three so you cant call me sad unless you are also sad enough to recognise them :-P)

It is not even the social side as in many of those games I did not communicate much with other players except for essential tactical messages but somehow it is just more fun to fight with/against human players. It is also more of a challenge, especially in flight sims where you can play offline and think you are an awesome pilot then fly against human pilots and realise you are a total noob :-) It is a harsh lesson but one that needs to be learned.

gavagai
Aug-25-2013, 14:43
I prefer online play but I find that both camps undervalue each other. Onliners don't realize how important it is to have a fun offline side so that newcomers can learn and improve before they wade into the deep end of the pool. Offliners tend to see onliners as incredibly arrogant for touting how much more difficult it is to fight other humans, but the onliners are absolutely correct on that point.

Again, I hope that something like the AI fix that Daedelos did for 1946 is on the menu for Clod. Then it might actually be worth it try an offline campaign. As things are now the AI is too ridiculous to spend time with, and I don't feel that way about 1946 since 4.11.

DennydD
Aug-25-2013, 17:22
I play this game 95% of the time offline. IMHO it's dangerous to focus just on "online" or "offline".

The online players already explained why they prefere this mode and their points are absolutely valid. The problem is that this is like the old in game color question or other things that are tied to a perception.

I share this theory with you: In my opinion the online players are more active on forums.
I think it is worng, if the majority in a forum states that online is all they care for, concluding this is all that matters.

CloD was not sold as MMO and i didn't expect buying a MMO. My personal take on playing: Online is a blast of fun but competitive and demanding. Offline is for recreation and 95% of the time I use CloD for recreation. I do not expect other players to share this perception but I ask others not to tell me how I should enjoy my game. Online I conduct to certain rules. Offline is the place where I can fool around how I like without restrictions. I am not talking about flying invincible with unlimited ammo but if somebody like this its ok and offline is the place to do it. Not everybody agrees with the full real settings you are forced online.

Or TS. TS is a good tool for gathering and pulling off the real incredible stuff online. I never forget once seeing a perfect player formation crossing the lines on a fighter sweep. Of course they coordinated on TS. This are the incerdible online moments. On the other hand you find guys who fly drunk and spoil TS with foul language. Or those who blame others if something goes wrong. NOOB is one of the nice words you hear.

Or the shoulder shooters. Being ripped to pices by your own side isn't uncomon. Sure there are cool squads around with decent guys but I tell you that the first thing that comes to my mind if I am shatterd by 20mm canon rounds is "SHIIIIIIIIII...". I do not wanna spoil the fun of my mates by swearing all the time so I restrain myself online. If I feel like swearing I fly offline and there are many other reasons why I fly offline.

Also I do think that online is not the last step of evolution for every player. There is a good amount of gals/guys that do never evolute into full realism online players.

I also want to criticise the (often unintentional) elitism that corrupts every game after a while. It is just not funny for everybody to be the fool and the cannon fodder in online servers. We all know that there are enough people who accept the challenge but there is also a large portion who does not. I ask you: Do you think there are many players who find themselfes being dead meat in MP but do come here and participate in threads like this?

For the elitism: I find it sometimes a bit intimidating reading sim threads. Not only here (this place is well moderated *wink* snapper). For a newcomer the best that could happen is that they just ignore you for a post. I am not talking about the newby question that is usually answered in a nice way but about threads that cover perceptions like this is one.

Just my 2 cents. :salute:

Mysticpuma
Aug-25-2013, 17:58
What Denny said. :)

56RAF_klem
Aug-26-2013, 02:47
Good post DennyD. All valid points.

Personally I'm an online player because I prefer that personal competitive nature and especially flying with other guys. I think one reason why offline play gets so little support in forums at the moment is because it is badly broken and so not attractive to many. I think that may change if TF are able to get to grips with things like broken radio commands. Also the poor mission builder makes it hard for guys to create their own missions to fly off line and what I saw of the stock campaign was terrible. We online guys are entirely dependent on the great work a handful of the community do in creating online missions especially due to all of the scripting needed for anything more than just a simple mission.

I suppose its natural for guys that like the interactive online feel to gravitate towards "full real" settings but there are some servers with reduced settings and the Repka dogfight servers can be manic if you like knife fights :)

Roblex
Aug-26-2013, 04:59
I share this theory with you: In my opinion the online players are more active on forums.
I think it is worng, if the majority in a forum states that online is all they care for, concluding this is all that matters.

Sorry but if the majority of players who participate in the discussions are online players then how is it 'wrong' that the majority think online gaming is more important? When you are on a forum for an online server discussing what changes should be made by a team who fly almost exclusively online what can you expect? It is like going to a Rolling Stones fan club meeting and complaining that the majority would rather book a Stones cover band for the Christmas party than a Beatles cover band :D

Offline does have its uses and it does need improving but you have to accept that if Team Fusion decide to spend any time on improving the offline side then it is only because they want new players to come to CLOD and practice offline *then come online* :D If they choose to stay offline then nobody will stop them but at the same time we would not expect the offline players to complain about the online bias amongst online players talking in a forum dedicated to online play :P

DennydD
Aug-26-2013, 07:43
Yah, well, thats just your opinion man.

Just FYI: I replied to this question:


I'd just like to say something here....about online and offline play....

I don't fly offline...I think I have about 40 mins offline with CLOD...and before that in IL-2 1946 I only flew offline when I was working away from home and had no internet connection...So I am naive to the offline community and out of touch...

There is a question that I would like to have some input on.....I know that what helped no end with the longevity of the original IL2 series was a healthy community of online play and servers....Because it was easy to become involved and enjoy something for its social aspect and that does drive a community and keep it alive...There were many different squads playing the original IL2 and battling on a daily basis in servers on Hyperlobby for many years..it was healthy and competitive...In other genres it seems to be the same...Games like 'World Of Tanks' and 'War Thunder' thrive on multiplayer online competition....So for me it has always been better to target the online players and get them motivated than to motivate the offliners because I feel they are better equiped to keep this sim alive and to populate it........But am I wrong?...If all we had was the offline community would it still bring with it longevity?....Or are both as important?....

What say you?


we would not expect the offline players to complain about the online bias amongst online players talking in a forum dedicated to online play

And I expect a more civil tone in your reply.

DUI
Aug-26-2013, 08:25
To be honest I do not see it that much an online versus offline thing. If I look at the improvements that TF so far achieved and will achieve with the second patch both worlds profit from the fixes of the flight and damage model, the additional plane variants, the changes in graphic and the performance gains. Personally being a pure online player I would also not mind if TF manages to improve AI - that surely also would have some influence on the topic gunners that again affect online and offline playing. The same if TF is working on a more comfortable mission builder or improvements in the behaviour of ground objects.
So no reason to look at it as an online versus offline struggle - we are all in the same boat. :wf:

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-26-2013, 11:52
Before this thread I had no idea there was a rivalry between online and offline...I actually thought that folks did both.....and as a CLOD supporter I want no part in a debate about which is best and which is not...For me there is no discussion as we are all part of the same family pulling in the same direction...

Having said that the point that I want to make here is that due to my ignorance to offline play and the needs of its players I am ill equiped to be able to know as to what I can do to push that part of this sim to new players....and I want to be able to....I am asking for help here...I want to be pro-active in that area if it is going to benefit the community and without the knowledge and help from offliners I am going to struggle....

Thanks for the input from those that have taken the time to add to this discussion....we are learning all the time from these opinions and it will help our cause.

...lew...

ATAG_Bliss
Aug-26-2013, 13:07
Sorry but if the majority of players who participate in the discussions are online players then how is it 'wrong' that the majority think online gaming is more important? When you are on a forum for an online server discussing what changes should be made by a team who fly almost exclusively online what can you expect? It is like going to a Rolling Stones fan club meeting and complaining that the majority would rather book a Stones cover band for the Christmas party than a Beatles cover band :D

Offline does have its uses and it does need improving but you have to accept that if Team Fusion decide to spend any time on improving the offline side then it is only because they want new players to come to CLOD and practice offline *then come online* :D If they choose to stay offline then nobody will stop them but at the same time we would not expect the offline players to complain about the online bias amongst online players talking in a forum dedicated to online play :P

To be honest I don't really agree fully with this. Sure we have an online server and part of the forum is dedicated to that, but I know SP is just as important many folks as MP is.

The biggest thing people have to realize is all the mods help both SP and MP equally. And the other thing is AI / radio commands are just as important to the guys fixing the game (many are SP players btw) than any other issue. But what ends up getting fixed isn't because there's some schedule or ideology set in stone. It's quite simply because problem x,y,z was found and able to be fixed. The best way to describe anything these guys are doing is searching for needles in haystacks. The ones for AI or radio chatter simply haven't been uncovered yet.

ATAG_Colander
Aug-26-2013, 13:23
And contrary to what some posts I've seen on other forums, there is or has been no help or contact whatsoever with any ex-MG helping TF look for those needles.

Cybermat47
Aug-26-2013, 21:46
To be honest I don't really agree fully with this. Sure we have an online server and part of the forum is dedicated to that, but I know SP is just as important many folks as MP is.


Yeah... I spent 5 minutes looking for the fuel controls in my Spitfire the other day, then said 'screw it' and went to a TEF campaign. :)

When I figure out where the controls are... I'll probably just crash trying to take off :D

I need some time to adjust to full real :salute:

56RAF_klem
Aug-27-2013, 02:41
Yeah... I spent 5 minutes looking for the fuel controls in my Spitfire the other day, then said 'screw it' and went to a TEF campaign. :)

When I figure out where the controls are... I'll probably just crash trying to take off :D

I need some time to adjust to full real :salute:

It's to the right of the control column hanging off the bottom of the instrument panel. Look for an up-down lever.

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-29-2013, 20:37
We seem to be getting 50 - 60 players every evening during the week on the server at the moment...I think what we have done here so far is pretty impressive...From what the new players say the main influence on them is the positive Youtube vids....So keep them coming as it is having an impact...

The most populated times are from 7 - 8pm to 1 -2 am (GMT)..thats about 6 - 7 hours.....I think that this is when the europeans tend to finish gaming and go to bed....Central US is 6 hours behind and the population drops off significantly to at most 10 players so it is less populated at their peak gaming time..

Can someone give me an idea of server populations during Australasia peak time (between 7pm and 1am their time)....Russian peak time....and South American peak times?

From what I can see it seems to me that most players of this sim are the europeans...?...Is that correct?

If that is the case then we have to figure out how to influence these other areas...I'm not even sure there is a way to target these other areas short of advertising Youtube vids in Russian..but thats only one area you could target then anyways...

PS...My attempt to poach War Thunder players wasn't as spectacular as I hoped...My disguised CLOD vid as a War Thunder vid has had approx 100 views in a month...and no comments...Oh well..One can but try!

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Aug-29-2013, 20:54
Salute

Just wanted to say thanks to Lewis again for his work on methods of attracting new players, I am seeing people coming in all the time now. :respect:

ATAG_Snapper
Aug-29-2013, 23:56
Salute

Just wanted to say thanks to Lewis again for his work on methods of attracting new players, I am seeing people coming in all the time now. :respect:

+1 :salute:

56RAF_klem
Aug-30-2013, 02:49
We seem to be getting 50 - 60 players every evening during the week on the server at the moment...I think what we have done here so far is pretty impressive...From what the new players say the main influence on them is the positive Youtube vids....So keep them coming as it is having an impact...

The most populated times are from 7 - 8pm to 1 -2 am (GMT)..thats about 6 - 7 hours.....I think that this is when the europeans tend to finish gaming and go to bed....Central US is 6 hours behind and the population drops off significantly to at most 10 players so it is less populated at their peak gaming time..

Can someone give me an idea of server populations during Australasia peak time (between 7pm and 1am their time)....Russian peak time....and South American peak times?

From what I can see it seems to me that most players of this sim are the europeans...?...Is that correct?

If that is the case then we have to figure out how to influence these other areas...I'm not even sure there is a way to target these other areas short of advertising Youtube vids in Russian..but thats only one area you could target then anyways...

PS...My attempt to poach War Thunder players wasn't as spectacular as I hoped...My disguised CLOD vid as a War Thunder vid has had approx 100 views in a month...and no comments...Oh well..One can but try!

Interesting figures Lewis. Our European Squad is on from around 7pm to 10pm-11pm at which time I am seeing something like 20 players left, i.e. about half to a third of the mid-UK evening numbers. I guess some are US East Coast as 11pm - 2am is 6pm to 9pm East Coast. Its also surprising how many american accents there are on TS mid-UK evening and from what I hear on TS they are in the US so presumably afternoon players.

One way to reach more people might be a mailshot/post on all the simulation forums we can think of as soon as the next patch is released, even those that are not generally air combat related. Places like SimHQ, Flyaway simulation, A2A, DCS, Ubi, 1C, flightsim.com, uk.gamespot.com, simflight.com, flightsimworld.com, Avsim(?), pcaviatorforums.com, forum.keypublishing.com, nzff.org/forum, forums.simviation.com, http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/forum-13.html, http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44, http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk ..........

Any more???????? USA, SE Asia, Russia, China.......... Maybe a mailshot target thread to collect these forum names and any TF names that are members of the forums and willing to post? (Or do we have an "advertising manager"?) :)

It would need to be a common TF-approved text that avoids objections like spamming, selling etc.

Roblex
Aug-30-2013, 02:59
DennyD. Apologies if English is not your first language (I cannot tell from your profile) but you seem to have totally misunderstood what I posted.

You posted that


I think it is wrong, if the majority in a forum states that online is all they care for, concluding this is all that matters.

I merely pointed out that you cannot say it is wrong for the majority to have a different opinion to you, especially when you have already stated " In my opinion the online players are more active on forums"

Perhaps if I restated what you wrote in different English you would understand better. What you wrote translates as "Most of the people who will bother to answer Lewis's question (that is what 'more active means) will be Online fans' then you wrote 'I think it is wrong that most of the people who answered stated that they prefer online play and have decided that is all that matters' Can you see why that makes no sense? It is like going to a wine tasting event and asking everyone there if they prefer wine or beer then saying they are wrong for saying they prefer wine :D The question was asked and they gave their own answer, it cannot be wrong.

You seem to have taken my post as my opinion on online versus offline but I was only commenting on your statement that it was wrong for the majority to disagree with you, especially when you already knew that most of the people answering don't have the same opinion as you before they answered.

ATAG_Lewis
Aug-30-2013, 08:35
Thanks for the post Klem......I need to read it a few times for it to sink in...I'll re-read later and give more feedback when I get time

==================================================

I just had a thought about Youtube videos....I haven't 'Tagged' any of my vids yet...and its been brought to my attention that 'Tagging' with tags that are loosely based around this sim such as 'Battle of Britain'..'Flight Simulator'....'Spitfire'...even 'World War II'...that this may have a positive effect on reaching out to people who search these topics..

I don't know anything about 'Tags' so any info on this would be good....Even better would be a list that we could copy and paste for anyone who has a CLOD video..altho I have just tried to copy and paste a few topics with no joy..I think the copy and paste facillity is not open on tags...I guess thats to stop folks flooding Youtube with tags...Hmmmm....Need more help and info on this subject...

DennydD
Aug-30-2013, 11:27
DennyD. Apologies if English is not your first language (I cannot tell from your profile) but you seem to have totally misunderstood what I posted.

You posted that



I merely pointed out that you cannot say it is wrong for the majority to have a different opinion to you, especially when you have already stated " In my opinion the online players are more active on forums"

Perhaps if I restated what you wrote in different English you would understand better. What you wrote translates as "Most of the people who will bother to answer Lewis's question (that is what 'more active means) will be Online fans' then you wrote 'I think it is wrong that most of the people who answered stated that they prefer online play and have decided that is all that matters' Can you see why that makes no sense? It is like going to a wine tasting event and asking everyone there if they prefer wine or beer then saying they are wrong for saying they prefer wine :D The question was asked and they gave their own answer, it cannot be wrong.

You seem to have taken my post as my opinion on online versus offline but I was only commenting on your statement that it was wrong for the majority to disagree with you, especially when you already knew that most of the people answering don't have the same opinion as you before they answered.

Thanks for your reply. The writen word sometimes leads to misconception. I tried to be careful with my wording to point out that this is just why I play a lot SP and why I think SP should not be abandoned. I am sorry if it came over as an hardliner opinion. About the majority, well I just think that single players are there but not as "visible" as multiplayers. It wasn't my intention to say that anybody is wrong. Maybe the wording was not lucky on my part. My intention was to give an insight on the perspective of SP but I never wanted to be judgemental on multiplayers.

Good luck in the sky! :salute:

PS: It is not my native language.

Roblex
Aug-30-2013, 16:39
Denny, I guess what you were trying to say was that too many online fans don't care about what offline fans want and don't believe their opinions matter. In that you may have a valid point. Even I, who do not enjoy playing alone against a computer, believe that offline mode is important because new players need somewhere to practice safely before facing human players. It would be even more useful if we had some offline missions that gently teach people how to fly with CEM turned on. It looks very difficult, almost impossible, at first but with the correct teaching it turns out to be not that hard at all.

ATAG_Lewis
Sep-08-2013, 09:50
Seperate post with wiki question here:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5650&p=58407#post58407

Just uploading another vid disguised as War Thunder...lets see how that goes...

BlitzPig_EL
Sep-08-2013, 11:44
Guys, I realize I am coming to this thread very late, but, here goes...

Some of you may remember that I flew a lot in the early days of CloD on your server.
I enjoyed your company and the teamwork. Honestly.

I was a very early "fanboy" of CloD, and tried to get as many folks as I could to get into it early on.
Well, we all know what happened at release so no need to cover that here again.

The overwhelming problems at the stillborn release doomed the project.

My guys (BlitzPigs) loved the feeling of flight and the immersive qualities of CloD, but the bugs were just too much carry on with.

So, now the sim is more or less playable. Good.

However there are simply two reasons why attracting new players will be next to impossible.

1. The sim's initial bad reputation still precedes it. That stain can never be wiped away, sadly.

2. Lack of content. (Why I quit playing). I'm bored with the scenario now. Spits and 109s over Manston and Hawkinge was fun for a while, but a long term
relationship it does not make. If you want more players, you need more content, and you need it now. Not two months from now, not a year from now, RIGHT NOW.
I know that TF is doing all they can, but in a very short time there will be new alternatives, with real advertising budgets, and different scenarios.

Time is short for CloD, and so is it's CONTENT.

Content is king, and there isn't enough of it.

Flyingblind
Sep-08-2013, 13:12
True.......ish. Surely the map is big enough that people can come up with missions and objectives other than dog fights and bombing runs over the channel. At the moment TF is immersed in bug squashing and game improvement with no time for extra content but I am sure that will come.

Sure, there are alternatives coming but none that will rival CloD will have the planes for the Battle of Britain. If people get drawn to other sims first they will almost certainly try CloD in exactly the same way as CloD supporters and players will almost certainly try BoS and Luthiers DCS project.

I doubt very much the state of CloD at release will hold people back as TF is making it a different game altogether. You wait till the next patch is released.

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-08-2013, 15:12
Clod is a sandbox. You can sit in that sandbox and say, "Entertain me, sandbox!".....and yes, you'll quickly be bored to tears. Strangely, Toys-R-Us sell a zillion sandboxes every year, ostensibly to new customers. Many of those new customers will quickly tire of making the same old sandcastles all the time, others will find endless things to construct or play in the very same environment. I would agree that Clod is not for everyone. I try something new each time I log into the server, and spend very little time, as a rule, over Manston or Hawkinge.

Dutch
Sep-08-2013, 17:26
Content is king, and there isn't enough of it.

Hello El, long time no speak etc. :D

I'm not clear here on what you mean by 'content'. I remember that you were keen to have a flyable Gladiator for instance, but they didn't play a part in the BoB. I also remember that you're keen on Bombers, and there ain't no flyable Wellington yet either. But neither did they play a part in what most people consider the 'Battle of Britain'.

The BoB was played out mostly in the area of the map modelled, apart from a couple of disastrous raids made from Norway by the LW.

So I suppose I'm asking 'What content do you want in the Battle of Britain'? The current limitations in producing anything remotely resembling the BoB isn't a matter of content, it's a matter of hardware. Just like it was 12 yrs ago. When the game was released, a 1gig video card was the best you could get, now we have 6gig cards. Pretty soon, those cards will be affordable.

Then we'll see formations of 60+, escorted by a hundred 109s. We might see a nighttime Blitz, defended by Defiants, Hurricanes, Spitfires and Blenheim IVFs. We might see a lot of things.

So what content are we missing here?

BlitzPig_EL
Sep-08-2013, 22:01
Dutch,

The Battle of Britain is the problem. If the sim had been a true commercial success we would have another theatre of operations in play by now.
One that had more to do than just protect the east of England from vulching 109s.

I know for some of you, and particularly those of you from the UK, it's the best thing since sliced bread. I understand that. And it can be a very fun scenario, but
it isn't the only air campaign of WW2. If the Med was available as well as BoB I would not be having this conversation, and the sim would have a lot more players.

The narrow focus of CloD, which was a good thing to start with, is now it's biggest liability, add the fact that there is no money support from the publisher, and the complexity of making new models, well, you get the picture.

It may come as a shock, but the Spitfire and Bf 109 are not everyone's favorite mount. That's one of the reasons I want a Gladiator, or even an Anson. I'd love to fly a P40 or an MC 202, or a Ki 43, or attack German armor with a Tiffy, in this game engine. It would be amazing.

Sorry, it's late and I'm starting to ramble...

The sim needs more variety to sustain itself. That is my point.

It needs thousands of new players, and I just don't see that happening anymore.

Kling
Sep-08-2013, 23:26
Hey Blitzpig! Welcome back! http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/pozitive/s0826.gif (http://yoursmiles.org/s-pozitive.php)
I think, CLod, will at one point be heading towards the Mediterranean.. I Agree with you BP that Clod really would need asap to be able to compete with whats coming around the corner, however Team Fusion is working as hard as possible.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the next patch expected within the next "two" weeks as the graphics and immersion has been stepped up quite a bit!
Tell your BlitzPig friends to give Clod another try after the next patch!
I remember you and your friends from the Il21946 server, Warclouds btw! :)
If you know any good 3d modders, please contact Buzzaw as they are constantly looking for talented people!

Cheers

Uwe
Sep-08-2013, 23:29
I think you nailed it.
The BoB does not appeal to many people, or rather not as much as Mustangs, Dora's and B-17's.

But rather than looking at this as a limitation you could turn that around into a specialization.
BoS wont be going west for a while, and likely not backwards in time. DCS WW2 will be the Mustangs, Doras and B-17s. CoD could become Team Fusions World at war, the early years. Nail down the BoB (pretty much done at this point no?) then maybe expand to battle of France.

It will attract those who are interested in it, but it will never appeal to the warthunder sim-lite crowd.

donut.boy2
Sep-09-2013, 00:12
As amazing as most of the youtube vids have been so far, the more realistic encounters they represent may in themselves be part of the problem. I always felt that to push this sim through youtube an atag organized event would need to take place during which the greatest number of players possible should be placed in the smallest space possible and instructed to attack at a specific time, or all players spawn in the air near the same point and time. When i watch vids of war thunder being played it seems as if there are targets visible quite literally everywhere, action is continuous and without effort. There is no searching for dots/aircraft process going on. I hate to put it this way, but to attract more of that kind of crowd some sacrilegious false event, possibly with usertags turned on might be helpful. I know many people have produced fantastic video, and if only a portion of them where willing to turn over footage from such a staged event for editing as an official atag trailer, it might stand a chance with introducing that kind of gamer with what essentially is a different product than the original CloD.

The other thing that might help is if a server is created with easy flight model, unlimited ammo, external views, visible tags, small maps, essentially all the stuff not really appreciated by the community for the purpose of attracting gamers/making the transition to simmers not such a leap. I would volunteer to populate such a server on some planned interval if there was a chance it might start up/attract a piece of that arcade pie to CloD. I almost believe that getting people to try in the first pace, even a watered down version of whats going on here is enough to make them come back.:recon:

JG5_Emil
Sep-09-2013, 06:25
Dutch,

The Battle of Britain is the problem. If the sim had been a true commercial success we would have another theatre of operations in play by now.
One that had more to do than just protect the east of England from vulching 109s.

I know for some of you, and particularly those of you from the UK, it's the best thing since sliced bread. I understand that. And it can be a very fun scenario, but
it isn't the only air campaign of WW2. If the Med was available as well as BoB I would not be having this conversation, and the sim would have a lot more players.

The narrow focus of CloD, which was a good thing to start with, is now it's biggest liability, add the fact that there is no money support from the publisher, and the complexity of making new models, well, you get the picture.

It may come as a shock, but the Spitfire and Bf 109 are not everyone's favorite mount. That's one of the reasons I want a Gladiator, or even an Anson. I'd love to fly a P40 or an MC 202, or a Ki 43, or attack German armor with a Tiffy, in this game engine. It would be amazing.

Sorry, it's late and I'm starting to ramble...

The sim needs more variety to sustain itself. That is my point.

It needs thousands of new players, and I just don't see that happening anymore.


I'm from the UK and no it isn't the best thing since sliced bread. What we have now is not even remotely close to a representation of the BOB. No huge bomber formations or fighting over London. As you described protecting airfields from vulching 109s is not what the Battle of Britain was about. I think if we did have a real representation of the Battle those with less interest in that air war would at least have a lot more to be wowed about. The battles we get at the moment are terribly dull, the main action tends to occur in furballs on the deck which is silly. It is very rare IMHO to come up against even 4 Spits/Hurricanes and the whole airwarfare feels very sparsely distributed. Maybe one day we will be able to have reasonably large (20-30) bomber formations, give the RAF the real experience of fighting in the BOB.

JG5_Emil
Sep-09-2013, 06:27
I think you nailed it.
The BoB does not appeal to many people, or rather not as much as Mustangs, Dora's and B-17's.

But rather than looking at this as a limitation you could turn that around into a specialization.
BoS wont be going west for a while, and likely not backwards in time. DCS WW2 will be the Mustangs, Doras and B-17s. CoD could become Team Fusions World at war, the early years. Nail down the BoB (pretty much done at this point no?) then maybe expand to battle of France.

It will attract those who are interested in it, but it will never appeal to the warthunder sim-lite crowd.

It wouldn't matter if we had P-51s and doras or not...if the biggest bomber formation you had near Berlin was 6 B-17s it would still be ludicrous and truly unbelievable. I appreciate some people don't like Spits or Hurricanes but if the game play is close to the real event it wouldn't matter so much.

AKA_Recon
Sep-09-2013, 09:01
No doubt content would help... at the same time though - it's all about the missions. My post is about online play btw...

If it's just a ho-hum glorified airquake server, then yes, people get bored and won't play. That is my beef. There isn't much emphasis on making it a setup that makes you want to accomplish the goals and win for the team.

Just an example: bombers are second class citizens. The Allies are handicapped by only have one low level bomber. There are no points or incentives for what you do as a bomber, whereas the fighters have stats, etc... some say 'it doesn't matter' - well, those are typically the guys I don't see flying online. Or 'it wouldn't be 'realistic' to have a Br.20' for the Allies to be a Wellington substitute - but those that say that think it's ok that the British are given one bomber in their fleet - which is every more far fetched!

Here is an example: we were flying a few nights ago and were told 'you guys just kill AI' - we said 'we are killing the bombers attacking England'. The response was 'oh, well they don't even bomb the objectives'. And we were criticized for not doing objectives! We are on our comms thinking 'if not killing incoming bombers in BoB is not doing objectives then what war are we fighting here???' - it was a huge contradiction.

Meanwhile, I destroyed the objective last night tearing up ships that no Germans defended. Secondly, once that objective was complete, I had to go hit Ju88 bombers on an airfield where the flak was AWEFUL, and there aren't any options for British bombers to level bomb and fly at least high enough to not get chewed up.

But several times bringing this up here, it's either ignored or brushed aside as 'not realistic'. Sigh.

So what will happen is eventually, as El has said, the shine will start to wear thin because there isn't much you can do. Certainly, content helps - but it's not just about content. It's about having an online setup (again, I'm focusing on online play here) that is going to draw players because having objectives and meaningful missions is what makes people come back imo.

I should add: some say stats don't matter (in this case, just remove them all then right?) but when you kill 8 ships in a mission and have nothing to show for it, it also gets old. All I get is 4 sorties at 0 kills a sortie. I gave up on the stats. Bringing it up is met with opposition who claims stats mean nothing but again, just like the bombers, if they mean nothing, why do we have them ? Remove them then (which nobody wants). Instead, integrate them into the mission objective functions. If you want people to do the objectives, you reward them. It's the stick and carrot concept. Ran a war for many many years (10?) with 3 missions a week, and the reason it was successful was because the stick and carrot brought people back. People were rewarded for staying alive, they were rewarded for destroying objectives, and they lost points when they died or didn't attack/defend. It created an environment where people wanted to come back and fly. The goals shifted from individuals 'let's see how many kills I can get' to 'we need to survive and accomplish our goals to win'.

Take VEF, I didn't fly it much, but people flocked to it, as the missions and the goals in them were exciting and drew people back in.

So yes, content helps, but in both scenario's above, it wasn't about the concept, it was about the immersion of the missions and stick and carrot rewards and the desire to 'win the war' that made it fun and competitive.

I would be looking into fixing the stats and making them meaningful.
I would be looking into how to turn this into some sort of continual time fixed 'war' scenario that is running 24/7
I would be looking to introduce planes we have to apply them in a way that can make accomplishing objectives meaningful

TF is doing a great job, they have turned this sim around, now, we need to have some online play that makes people excited to show up and want to fly in it! Once that is in place, then you can add content over time.

My 2 cents, all good stuff here - thanks for allowing input on these topics... and yes, I get passionate about this subject, mostly as I want to see it be successful!

ATAG_Lewis
Sep-09-2013, 09:50
The point that there is a lack of things to keep people flying CLOD kind of misses the initial thread title....'How to get MORE people to play'..There will always be casualties in any game/sim ,people who simply find that it is not for them or the sim has run its natural course for them...However, the point of this thread is to find ways of bringing those folks who have not bought and played CLOD..or folks who bought it on release and played it for 5 minutes before coming to the conclusion that it was no good and therefore must be avoided forever..into this sim

Good discussional points there though..~S~

JG5_Emil
Sep-09-2013, 09:56
At any given time it seems like there are at least 3 or 4 small flights of bombers of both sides. Why not run missions that are either attack or defend instead of both and less objectives so that you would have much larger formations of bombers to intercept and hopefully you would get a raging battle that would be fought from the point of intercept to the target and all the way back over the channel. If it is possible to say have 20-30 bombers then it would take a lot more coordination for the defenders and make them work together. The fighter escorts would need to catch up with the bombers and form a protective umbrella over them, this in turn would make the defenders split forces to deal with those fighters so that the aircraft attacking the bombers have a chance. Also bomber formations need to be much more varied, as the bombers are often unprotected and in small numbers which adds to their impotence everyone knows exactly where they are going to spawn and their flight path. I can be over Dover looking for a spit at altitude and keep an eye out towards Dungeness for when the 6 RAF bombers appear if I am so inclined.

ATAG_Lewis
Sep-09-2013, 09:59
Tagging Youtube vids...

On seperate point here....We have established that the Videos posted in Youtube have had a very positive effect on bringing new players here....maybe even the most influencial of all the things we have done...

So...I'd like to ask a question about 'tagging' in Youtube...How does it work?....Can I copy and paste many tags into every CLOD vid I upload?....Does tagging work?....How effective is it?....Can I tag all the other sims into my vids so that players searching sims like 'WarThunder' and 'War of Planes' will get my CLOD videos towards the top of their list?....

If tagging works as I think it does we are missing a trick here.....I for one have not tagged any of my videos simply because I don't know anything about it...and it seems at first glance like it is a lot of trouble to go to...

I have asked this question before here..with no response..and I think its an important question so please forgive me if I post this question in the 'Sim Theatre' area of the forums to see if I can get some clarification....

...lew...

JG5_Emil
Sep-09-2013, 10:02
The point that there is a lack of things to keep people flying CLOD kind of misses the initial thread title....'How to get MORE people to play'..

I'll have to disagree there for a lot of people they are one and the same thing. There are plenty of people out there who do have the sim and the PC to run it but struggle to bring themselves to fly because there is something better. That better thing isn't a better engine/graphics it is the immersion that comes with the missions.

Make CLOD actually about the Battle of Britain and give people a taste of what it was really like to be scrambling to get to altitude against an imposing bomber formation or to be over the Thames in a 109 running low and fuel with Spits blocking the way home.

AKA_Recon
Sep-09-2013, 14:24
The point that there is a lack of things to keep people flying CLOD kind of misses the initial thread title....'How to get MORE people to play'..There will always be casualties in any game/sim ,people who simply find that it is not for them or the sim has run its natural course for them...However, the point of this thread is to find ways of bringing those folks who have not bought and played CLOD..or folks who bought it on release and played it for 5 minutes before coming to the conclusion that it was no good and therefore must be avoided forever..into this sim

Good discussional points there though..~S~


If the old hands are dropping out, the servers get thinner, the new people come and see no one around and figure it's dead.

They are directly tied together. If I look to see how many people play a game online and see the servers empty in my timezone, I'm going to assume either everyone is playing offline, or the game is dead.

I think there is a direct correlation. ie. I am constantly inviting people that don't fly this to come fly it. However, part of the selling point to get them interested is how fun the play is, etc...

It should be a combination of, ie. getting the word out, getting the videos showing the updates out, etc... all good, but parallel to that is making sure when they do show up, they see a vibrant active community.

AKA_Recon
Sep-09-2013, 14:25
I'll have to disagree there for a lot of people they are one and the same thing. There are plenty of people out there who do have the sim and the PC to run it but struggle to bring themselves to fly because there is something better. That better thing isn't a better engine/graphics it is the immersion that comes with the missions.

Make CLOD actually about the Battle of Britain and give people a taste of what it was really like to be scrambling to get to altitude against an imposing bomber formation or to be over the Thames in a 109 running low and fuel with Spits blocking the way home.

Agree

Roblex
Sep-09-2013, 15:30
I'll have to disagree there for a lot of people they are one and the same thing. There are plenty of people out there who do have the sim and the PC to run it but struggle to bring themselves to fly because there is something better. That better thing isn't a better engine/graphics it is the immersion that comes with the missions.

Make CLOD actually about the Battle of Britain and give people a taste of what it was really like to be scrambling to get to altitude against an imposing bomber formation or to be over the Thames in a 109 running low and fuel with Spits blocking the way home.

I would love to play a few missions where bombers are streaming up the Estuary to carpet bomb London and the RAF are not allowed to launch until Ground Control gives permission but I suspect that it would soon get as boring as defending the ships off Hawkinge. The problem inherent in CLOD is the lack of variety in terms of maps and aircraft and limitations on what the servers can handle in a multiplayer mission. Somewhere down the line the heroic efforts of Team Fusion will give us more aircraft and more maps and even aircraft carriers but there is also a good chance that half the existing players will have moved on to BOS or DCS-WWII by then. On the other hand, despite all the promises of what these new sims will bring us, we don't really know what the gameplay will be like so CLOD could triumph after all :D

indyscout
Sep-09-2013, 16:09
I would like to say that with in the last week or two I have seen a few new North Americans play, so we are getting some people too! Its more like 15 players from 7-9 now! :D

I think that the new Operation Homeplate mission is a great addition, the most team based one imo. I have seen at times 10 player ju88's going to bomb airfields with blue fighters escorting. And there is incentive for the reds to guard the airbases, or else they will lose their fancy Spits and get stuck with the old ones!

As far as new content goes, we are waiting on the tools to export/import 3d models from and to Clod. I have been told that progress is being made on the tools though there are still some hurdles. Hard to say if we will see new planes soon, I do know I have various bits and such that I can strap onto the existing models and then bam, new plane!

ATAG_Lewis
Oct-22-2013, 20:12
With the influx of new players to this sim and forum due to the new 4.00 Patch it might be a good idea to bump this thread and see if any new ideas from the new players get bounced around...

================================================

Recently a campaign evolved to try to bring more folks to this sim over the past few months.....Many of us here had tried different WWII Flight sims that didn't meet up to the same standards as CLOD which got us wondering why there weren't more folks flying this ground breaking sim...In this thread we discussed many reasons and many solutions to this problem....We achieved some moderate success....However we can always still benefit from fresh ideas from new players..even if it is simply to tell us how you came by CLOD, this forum and server...

If you are new and wanted to contribute something to this community then please read some of the issues we uncovered in this thread and think on how we can get even more folks flying CLOD....Remember any discussion here is positive

Thanks for your time, in advance

...lew...

usbStuck
Jan-08-2014, 05:25
I partly agree with Recon. One of the main things that make ANY game a success, is a form of accomplishment. People love stats, they love a way to "climb in the ranks", achievements (hardly a steam game without it) and unlocking content (ammo types, planes, etc).

A persistent server that spawns missions and where players could influence the course of war would be awesome, but that would be a major overhaul and take ages to complete.
However, I don't think it is necessary for more success. Look at World of Warplanes for instance (I know most of you will hate this arcade game, but still.. its successful), it only consists of short "team deathmatch" type missions. Why is it successful? Because it lets you customise your planes using upgrades (unlocking content), unlock new planes of higher level (climb in the ranks) and because it's easy.
I don't neccesarily mean the gameplay, but everything from installation to joining a server/fight.

Currently, vanilla CloD installed from steam will not work on Windows 8. At least it didn't for me. I first had to install the Team Fusion mods. I think these guys did an amazing job, the game for me would not have existed without.
It would be awesome if it would be somehow easier to install these mods. with an installer that came with the game or could be downloaded from the official site or whatever..

Also, I think that one of the main features of CloD is also it's main drawback for the masses. It's realistic. It is a good thing that by default in single player the realism options are turned down, but the steep learning curve online makes people bounce.
However, I'm sure that many players ARE interested in realism. I myself got fed up with the awful flying in arcade games like Hawx and World of Warplanes.
But maybe the tutorial section could be upgraded somehow. And for instance an ingame "viewer" that connects to youtube vids that explain startup for each plane would be awesome.

Ok that was a lot of text.. To sum up:
- give the player a sense of achievement; using better stats, unlocks (or even just custom spraypaints), achievments, victory marks on tail, etc.
- make installation of the patches easier. advertise them better somehow (sorry I can't come up with examples..) Incorporation in steam would be awesome
- make it easier to learn on realistic settings; incorporate tutorial vids in the game, etc.


just my 2 cents
usbStuck -out

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-08-2014, 05:52
It would be awesome if it would be somehow easier to install these mods. with an installer that came with the game or could be downloaded from the official site or whatever..

- make installation of the patches easier. advertise them better somehow (sorry I can't come up with examples..) Incorporation in steam would be awesome


You're right that complexity when finding, updating and/or installing mod content can be a turn off for some players.
Unfortunately the TF mods do not enjoy support from the developer, and therefore there is no chance of any kind of official link-ups. This concept has been explored.

The best that can be done is to increasingly try to think of creative ways to;
1. Minimise the number of mods (which, in reality means less frequent updates)
2. Minimise the stress of the install process - hence the youtube videos and the "self-un-packers etc.".

However, there will always be complications. But TF are alive to this, and do try to do as much as possible to minimise the PAIT associated with mod installations....

DUI
Jan-08-2014, 08:04
The best that can be done is to increasingly try to think of creative ways to;
1. Minimise the number of mods (which, in reality means less frequent updates)
2. Minimise the stress of the install process - hence the youtube videos and the "self-un-packers etc.".

The best way to make the patching process more comfortable would be to have an "all-in-one"-download. Meaning, one download and install routine to have the vanilla version of CloD updated to the latest TF patch version right away. Just imagine, now it already is three different downloads. With TF 4.01 it will be four and with TF 5 already five separate downloads and installations.
This is not a new topic and my last status was that Team Fusion tries its best to make such an all-in-one-patch for TF 5. Keeping the fingers crossed.

With an already nearly full ATAG server in the evening hours (CET) but also for special flying events I would love to see servers capable of handling more than 100 pilots in a stable way. Maybe, there are some magic Team Fusion tricks to increase the maximum amount of concurrent players. Let's say 150 pilots crowding the virtual CloD sky simultaneously would be a nice first (second) step. :whacky3:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-08-2014, 08:42
The best way to make the patching process more comfortable would be to have an "all-in-one"-download. Meaning, one download and install routine to have the vanilla version of CloD updated to the latest TF patch version right away. :

This has been discussed, including the idea of an install that checks for you current version an then applies the correct patching.... It's not easy, and requires some fairly complex coding and a very, very large download. As far as I am aware the idea has not been rejected....

ChiefRedCloud
Jan-08-2014, 09:48
I agree with most of the last few comments (usb, Phil, etc.) but perhaps we need a wee bit of reverse phycology. I.e. "This is a GREAT Flight Sim but perhaps not for you as it's challenging and perhaps too hard for you to learn."

http://imageshack.com/a/img27/3596/tv16.jpg

56RAF_klem
Jan-08-2014, 13:47
I agree with most of the last few comments (usb, Phil, etc.) but perhaps we need a wee bit of reverse phycology. I.e. "This is a GREAT Flight Sim but perhaps not for you as it's challenging and perhaps too hard for you to learn."

..image snipped... sorry little guy...

Woah! You know how to tell it ChiefRedCloud.

Actually its not too hard to learn if you get on line, make friends and get some help.

Let's look at usbStuck's post as an example (there's nothing personal in this usbStuck but it's an opportunity to put mindsets into perspective):

I partly agree with Recon. One of the main things that make ANY game a success, is a form of accomplishment. People love stats, they love a way to "climb in the ranks", achievements (hardly a steam game without it) and unlocking content (ammo types, planes, etc).

You will get a great sense of accomplishment in CoD from joining a Squad, learning how to fly together, take on the mission objectives, make kills and win maps and you'll get scores along the way but believe me your squadmates will soon 'rank' you, or rate you, but in a respectful way and you won't need medals to prove anything although some Squads do issue medals and Ranks. You do have the other choice of flying off-line and enjoying your private achievements and medals/ranks earned if you can find enough missions either you or someone else has designed to satisfy your inevitably ever-advancing wishes but believe me its not the same as taking on other real people. It's important to realise that any new missions will only ever come from you or the community.

A persistent server that spawns missions and where players could influence the course of war would be awesome, but that would be a major overhaul and take ages to complete.

A Dynamic mission generator would be great to allow follow-on missions based on the previous ones. AFAIK there isn't one atm but I wouldn't rule it out. In the meantime specific campaigns are run on some servers where, manually, the results are reflected into the next round. Of course any off-line campaign or 'career' has to come to an end sometime even if you have become Marshall of the Royal Air Force or Reischmarschall Goering and are still sitting in a cockpit. :)

However, I don't think it is necessary for more success. Look at World of Warplanes for instance (I know most of you will hate this arcade game, but still.. its successful), it only consists of short "team deathmatch" type missions. Why is it successful? Because it lets you customise your planes using upgrades (unlocking content), unlock new planes of higher level (climb in the ranks) and because it's easy. I don't neccesarily mean the gameplay, but everything from installation to joining a server/fight.
I beta tested WoWP and walked away. It is very arcade and you can't even sit in the cockpit. That immediately tell you WoWP is for 'gamers' not for 'pilots' (however wanna-be :) ).
You can find short term deathmatches in CoD dogfight servers although they could be made more 'deathmatch' than '2 hours mission time - go kill". 'Unlocking content' on a mission basis is already available in some CoD on-line missions but on a team basis. Personally I detest "buy to play" games because there is no level playing field unless you are content to continually shell out money for fear of being left behind. It kills group/squad play and is for players like those golfers who think they can buy a better game with the latest clubs. It doesn't guarantee improvement in knowledge or skills. Same in WoT. Richest man is halfway to victory. Don't get me wrong, I like WoT for the occasional blast but I can't get too interested in it. And you know what? Tanks can't fly!

Currently, vanilla CloD installed from steam will not work on Windows 8. At least it didn't for me. I first had to install the Team Fusion mods. I think these guys did an amazing job, the game for me would not have existed without.

No-one should even be thinking about stopping at vanilla installs. No offence but the point really doesn't have any value.

It would be awesome if it would be somehow easier to install these mods. with an installer that came with the game or could be downloaded from the official site or whatever..

True and I see Philstyle has answered this. Very large downloads would be needed and would be cursed by the majority who are already up to the previous patch although perhaps the alternatives could be considered. Remember though, TF is a bunch of guys giving their own (major) time freely and many things are much more important. Steam will never 'manage' TF mods and 1C have shut down MG and walked away from CoD leaving us to pick up the pieces.

Also, I think that one of the main features of CloD is also it's main drawback for the masses. It's realistic. It is a good thing that by default in single player the realism options are turned down, but the steep learning curve online makes people bounce.
However, I'm sure that many players ARE interested in realism. I myself got fed up with the awful flying in arcade games like Hawx and World of Warplanes.
But maybe the tutorial section could be upgraded somehow. And for instance an ingame "viewer" that connects to youtube vids that explain startup for each plane would be awesome.

Back to my earlier "its too hard to learn" comments. Get online and make friends. Everyone is friendly, will not disrespect newcomers and will help you. From nearly twenty years of flying on-line I can tell you that's the easiest and quickest way to learn. You'll make new friends and it will improve your off-line flying too.

Ok that was a lot of text.. To sum up:
- give the player a sense of achievement; using better stats, unlocks (or even just custom spraypaints), achievments, victory marks on tail, etc.
- make installation of the patches easier. advertise them better somehow (sorry I can't come up with examples..) Incorporation in steam would be awesome
- make it easier to learn on realistic settings; incorporate tutorial vids in the game, etc.


I hope you won't think I am aiming this at you usbStuck, its a very familiar story.

Bottom line, it is at its best when learned and played at full switch and on-line with friends. I know there are many virtual pilots that enjoy easier settings and/or solely off-line play and that's their choice but they have taken the time to learn, probably in previous sims too, or simply worked through it on their own. There are many very good off-liners too but for me the challenge of taking on real people to achieve mission objectives is just too much to miss. :)

Remember, this Air Combat Simulation was intended to be 'the best of the best' including realism and the inevitable learning curve as well as allowing easier-settings play for those that want it but it was intended to be a challenge to the demanding Air Combat community. It follows on from the original IL-2 series which had a huge player base, much of it on-line. IMHO it was never intended to be a game for short-term gain and then move on to something else. BUT you can be as good as anyone else if you want to be.

btw have you noticed how much on-line play is on the increase in the Console world. It's always been there but features much more in advertising than before.

ChiefRedCloud
Jan-09-2014, 20:44
WOW Klem ..... I think my sarcasm and odd comment is misunderstood. I simply meant that a challenge though it can be daunting is a GOOD thing. But sometimes, with a wee bit of reverse phycology you may spur someone's reluctance to try something. I agree that there is all kinds of help if a person will but look and ask. I do it all the time and I direct potential New CloD pilots towards ALL you guys here on ATAG and ACG.

Your comment is well taken and I appreciate your making it. Just didn't want to give you an wrong ideas. Cheers ...

56RAF_klem
Jan-10-2014, 03:22
WOW Klem ..... I think my sarcasm and odd comment is misunderstood. I simply meant that a challenge though it can be daunting is a GOOD thing. But sometimes, with a wee bit of reverse phycology you may spur someone's reluctance to try something. I agree that there is all kinds of help if a person will but look and ask. I do it all the time and I direct potential New CloD pilots towards ALL you guys here on ATAG and ACG.

Your comment is well taken and I appreciate your making it. Just didn't want to give you an wrong ideas. Cheers ...

Well, yes I was in one of those moods to make the point that this isn't an arcade game and it takes some application - as you said in effect.

Neither was it an attack on anyone. I hope usbStuck doesn't think it was.

And as I have often found, humour doesn't aways travel well. I suppose that's why emoticons were invented.
:idea: :doh: :):glaughter:

Zisi
Jan-10-2014, 16:24
For a new player setting up TF CLOD in a functional way isn't trivial without some help from someone who already knows. Just installing TF isn't really good enough, you also need to know about removing that one KB patch which pretty much anyone will have installed triggering constant crashes. The settings in the config files, fixes like clearing the cache and reinstalling DX, etc etc.

IMO I think once the new patch comes out, barring any major issues, the devs should take a break from content and make a unified installer that patches the game right up to the current version from retail. Ideally, the installer would also prompt to remove the KB patch, and display a readme with the common issues and fixes we have all figured out here on the forums, as well as something like: "Questions? Join us on teamspeak at x.x.x.x, most people will fall over each other to help new players."



It would be awesome if it would be somehow easier to install these mods. with an installer that came with the game or could be downloaded from the official site or whatever..

..... Very large downloads would be needed and would be cursed by the majority who are already up to the previous patch although perhaps the alternatives could be considered. ....

The current player base isn't *necessarily* the majority, and frankly, those who are already interested in the mod can deal with the slight annoyance of a large download. To TF's credit, they go for the large, stable, and infrequent update approach anyway. It's just not a big deal if theres a large download once every number of months. I would rather that new players have an easier time getting it running correctly.

Mysticpuma
Jan-10-2014, 17:09
"How Can We Get More People to Play Clod?"

Well, it depends if you are looking at purists or gamers? Firstly look at the amount of flyers who play War Thunder. A huge amount. Now compare CloD......not so many.

Firstly....why?

Okay, as most flight 'Simmers' are exactly that, they like the representation of flight, the experience and attention to detail. How many CloD players don't own at-least a joystick? CloD needs (as do all simulations) and investment in hardware to get the most from it. It doesn't make it unplayable with out it, it just makes it not as much fun.

Here's the crucial bit in my eyes.

Many, many threads have been written across forums demeaning War Thunder. It's too arcadey, the FM/DM isn't correct, it's just for 'muppets', etc, etc. Many times in those threads voices of reason have pointed out that criticising War Thunder is detrimental to the ongoing 'new blood' who once they get fed up with arcade gameplay, want to move on to 'proper' simulations. Well, here's the thing. Why do they start on War Thunder?

It seems that the Cliffs of Dover simulation community is (as are other simming communities) inflexible to change and thinking ahead for the future. My question is, why should we 'force' new players to fly in War Thunder when we have a perfectly capable Arcade game available in Cliffs of Dover with just some tweaks to the server settings.

Hang on...let me finish!

I am not saying we dumb down servers, but what I am saying is why don't Flight Sim Communities (like Battlefields did/do) have 2-3 different servers running but with different settings?

Basically you have the first server running with CEM switched off, Realistic Gunnery switched off, unlimited ammo., Stalls and Spins switched off, no blackout/redout, cockpits off...you see where I am going here?

So Server 1 is your arcade server. It's the introduction to Cliffs of Dover. Players can join and fly like they do in War Thunder and other arcade games. It's not about being purist, it's about making the sim accessible to the newcomers, the War Thunder flyers, the 'gamers'. This is the entry level.

Server 2, CEM still off, but most other features on (locked cockpit, no F2/shift 2/no padlock). This is then the stepping stone..the crossover point where they can start to progress towards Full Sim with CEM.

Server 3 Full Switch, like ATAG is now.



The thing we should understand is; not everyone wants the pure simulation experience to start with. Realistically if we look at the amount of players in War Thunder, there are thousands of players who enjoy air combat. We should be looking at these as potential future 'full simulation' players.


I realise that the purists here will say 'learn on full switch from the start it is better in the long run'...but that would completely miss the point of this post. First we need to get people to buy the software. Gamers who like flying sims...get them buying the software. Let them play 'games'...let them do what they do with War Thunder..let them begin the experience and then let them decide whether to progress into full simulation...or just keep playing CloD...tell their friends they can pick up a full game for a few dollars and have online arcade game fun.

We need to encourage young or new players to try out the genre, but locking the doors to them by saying "sorry you will learn full real or you can't play 'OUR' Game" is so counter-productive.

Look, I play full real, most of us here do too...but that's the point, we are already playing. We need to garner interest from new players and for that we need them to buy the game and get involved.

There is a huge market out their with War Thunder, let's not lock the doors because we are 'snobs', let's open the doors to new 'beginner' gamers, who want to try the sim out but are either too afraid of being shot down by 'uber' players who know every dial for FM or see the learning curve as too difficult.

I mean, how would you feel starting a game and not knowing how to even start your engine on the ground without going through a tutorial?


Basically, let's invite 'noobs', into the game by making it accessible to them as beginners, so hitting 'i' will start an engine, they can fly, they can have 'fun'.

The one's who try it out (like many (okay, not-all!)) of us did at some point, will then hopefully conisder moving up and experiencing the simulation side of it.


The above may not be popular with the purists...but let's be honest, without new players and new interest any Flight Sims that seem inaccessible and not willing to allow entry level players to get involved, really are cutting their nose off to spite their face?



So, are we snobs who look down on arcade players and are willing to let War Thunder be the only flying game they will ever consider, or do we think about having an arcade 'fun' server where new players can experince CloD without the pressure of learning hundreds of keystrokes and buttons?


Okay, that's my thought on how we can get more players involved from the War Thunder community without them ever having to go to War Thunder?

Cheers, MP

Zisi
Jan-10-2014, 17:10
One of the main things that make ANY game a success, ....

So long as we have a server that is well populated every day, TF CloD is a success. The goal is to create the best simulation that can be on CloD, and by and large, that has been achieved. I don't think anyone wants everyone who plays WT to come over to CloD, nor would they ever, most people are simply not interested in a simulation. The motivation of this thread rather is the knowledge of how popular IL2 was, and how comparatively few people we have. Thus the presumption is that there are a good number of people out there who are in fact interested in simulation, that simply don't know the current status of TF CloD.


..... , is a form of accomplishment. People love stats, they love a way to "climb in the ranks", achievements (hardly a steam game without it) and unlocking content (ammo types, planes, etc).

Is it that people love it, or is it that its an addictive replacement for real gameplay & content? One look at WT, WoWP, WoT, or any fps will convince you that the system works in regards to mass market popularity. However I don't think it actually makes a good game. There is nothing I hate more than a system that rewards people who just play a lot, with gameplay advantages over those who don't, regardless of skill. Nor do I like a system that incentivises people to run around doing nonsensical things that likely have no relationship to teamwork or map objectives. EX: "Instead of defending the objective, I'm going to run around trying to stab people with a knife to unlock x or get achievement y"

These mechanics have been incredibly toxic to gaming in recent years and I think gamers like it about as much as a smoker likes smoking.

Zisi
Jan-10-2014, 18:00
It seems that the Cliffs of Dover simulation community is (as are other simming communities) inflexible to change and thinking ahead for the future. My question is, why should we 'force' new players to fly in War Thunder when we have a perfectly capable Arcade game available in Cliffs of Dover with just some tweaks to the server settings.
I agree in principle, but is it realistic in practice? Who would populate the new servers? Probably not anyone from this community. Absent that is it likely that they would be populated sufficiently by incoming new players?


I mean, how would you feel starting a game and not knowing how to even start your engine on the ground without going through a tutorial?
Well thats the difference isn't it? If you are actually interested in simulation generally this would really interest you! I was there once, we probably all were, are there any among us who faced that and said: "Oh god I can't even start the engine, I guess Ill go do something else". Not at least in my case. I remember one time particularly, I had bought a very realistic interpretation of the Beechcraft B200 for FS2008, even the windshield wipers worked! It took me literally an hour on the ground figuring out how to start the thing, and set the instruments before I even tried taking off. I enjoyed that process, thats what I was after from the start, and the sense of accomplishment once I had learned it.

I won't begrudge any who enjoy other games, and I think the popularity of WT is great, inevitably there will be those that look for something more realistic, and we can be there for them. That said I doubt we could do the arcade side of things as well as WT does. I suspect the best we can do, is make the most realistic game we can, and do what we can to let others know we exist.

DUI
Jan-10-2014, 18:20
or do we think about having an arcade 'fun' server where new players can experince CloD without the pressure of learning hundreds of keystrokes and buttons?

MP, personally I think that CloD is not able to compete with WT in any way. On an arcade level what does CloD make better than WT or what might it can make better in the future? As much as I love CloD in my opinion: nothing.
WT has much more content (planes & maps), much more players and a for many players motivating plane unlocking and rewarding system - all aspects which I expect to be important for new "arcade players".

So in my opinion it would not be a good idea to shift attention from simulation to arcade. I think the better strategy is to see WT pilots as potential CloD pilots. There is also some members in our squadron who started with WT (also thanks to its media presence) and then realized that they want to have a flight sim focusing more on realism. Will you win 30.000 pilots with this strategy? Certainly not. But might you win 5% of the huge amount of WT players? Possibly. And in my opinion this would be a lot and enough to keep the CloD community healthy and growing.

So: Better focus the attention on the aspect that CloD is strong at and try to fish-off the pilots that are looking for realism.

ATAG_Lewis
Jan-11-2014, 09:10
Basically, let's invite 'noobs', into the game by making it accessible to them as beginners, so hitting 'i' will start an engine, they can fly, they can have 'fun'.

The one's who try it out (like many (okay, not-all!)) of us did at some point, will then hopefully conisder moving up and experiencing the simulation side of it.


The above may not be popular with the purists...but let's be honest, without new players and new interest any Flight Sims that seem inaccessible and not willing to allow entry level players to get involved, really are cutting their nose off to spite their face?



So, are we snobs who look down on arcade players and are willing to let War Thunder be the only flying game they will ever consider, or do we think about having an arcade 'fun' server where new players can experince CloD without the pressure of learning hundreds of keystrokes and buttons?


Okay, that's my thought on how we can get more players involved from the War Thunder community without them ever having to go to War Thunder?

Cheers, MP

Firstly sorry about the quote above..I have just shortened MPs post with a snipet when the whole post was actually most valid...

Great idea...Most constructive post in this thread recently too....Introducing new blood is the way forward for any sim or game for that matter...and if you can't do that then you are already doomed to a community of established niche enthusiasts who are dedicated enough to want to spend the many hours it takes to combat competently in this flight sim....Don't forget that many of us started in the original IL2 which had many highly populated Hyperlobby 'wonder woman' view servers for new players to get instantly involved in without hours off line learning CEM and how to take off

Coming from the FS squadron who ran 2 highly populated servers on Hyperlobby for 7 that where completely funded by donations I am all for this idea....It may work and its worth a go..it may not work but we shall never know

Flyingblind
Jan-11-2014, 10:09
That exactly matches my own experience when I first started going on line with IL2. I just couldn't cope with full real servers to start with. It was only after quite some time on the everything goes servers and the purchase of a joystick and TrackIR that I could go on full real with any sort of comfort. The early days were great fun but once I'd moved on it was so much more satisfying and I very rarely went back.

1lokos
Jan-11-2014, 10:19
Dont be too impressed by WT player numbers, the vast majority play on "mouse aim" mode (in winch you in fact dont fly the plane, just tell do AI wheres point the plane).

Very few these eventually switch to the WT FRB mode, much less to CLOD, Bo$ or DCS...

And, as DUI say what CloD have to compete in "Arcade" mode?

If a popular CloD "arcade" server grow, what you see is some people that actually play on ATAG/AGC change for then just because the "easy fun".

In some way what maybe help CloD is Bo$/DCS WWII success, some new players eventually want try the "BoB game".

Sokol1

donut.boy2
Jan-11-2014, 21:14
As amazing as most of the youtube vids have been so far, the more realistic encounters they represent may in themselves be part of the problem. I always felt that to push this sim through youtube an atag organized event would need to take place during which the greatest number of players possible should be placed in the smallest space possible and instructed to attack at a specific time, or all players spawn in the air near the same point and time. When i watch vids of war thunder being played it seems as if there are targets visible quite literally everywhere, action is continuous and without effort. There is no searching for dots/aircraft process going on. I hate to put it this way, but to attract more of that kind of crowd some sacrilegious false event, possibly with usertags turned on might be helpful. I know many people have produced fantastic video, and if only a portion of them where willing to turn over footage from such a staged event for editing as an official atag trailer, it might stand a chance with introducing that kind of gamer with what essentially is a different product than the original CloD.

The other thing that might help is if a server is created with easy flight model, unlimited ammo, external views, visible tags, small maps, essentially all the stuff not really appreciated by the community for the purpose of attracting gamers/making the transition to simmers not such a leap. I would volunteer to populate such a server on some planned interval if there was a chance it might start up/attract a piece of that arcade pie to CloD. I almost believe that getting people to try in the first pace, even a watered down version of whats going on here is enough to make them come back.:recon:


I recommended this months ago with no response. I really do agree with MP that it would help quite a bit. A small map on server 2 with lowest realism settings, and a scheduled day of the week for "community service" in the form of volunteers populating the server. That and support in the form of answering questions on the forum without a condescending tone about it being a lesser server to fly on.

9./JG52_J-HAT
Jan-12-2014, 07:46
There is the AX Dogfight server which has labels on, all fighters on both sides and short distances between the two bases plus airstarts. You basically spawn in and see targets everywhere. Why isn't it full with players? I think it is because most CloD players don't really like that. So we would need to get more players into CloD that like it and see if they make the transition later.

Maybe we could start filiming the action in this server and post on youtube like "look, CloD also has airquake gameplay". Even though the other realism settings are o full, it is still a whole other game if you have labels, all planes avaliable and very short distances. If that attracts more players, then that could be a way to go.

But IMHO War Thunder fills this position really good. Players who are more interested in quick dogfight action will start there and maybe transition. CloD offers very little in terms of planes, maps and game modes to provide a broader arcade sim.

But I still think a server with realistic settings, quickier missions (concentraded, single targets at a time in a small area of the map - e.g. hell's corner) and labels would be a nice compromise. It would appeal to players that are looking for something more realistic, without being "too hardcore".
Because some like the challenges of flying, looking, searching, identifying, tactics, as well as bombing and shooting down. Other like just shooting down more.

As a last note, we should define which type of players there are, what are their needs, which group makes more sense to attract to CloD, see what we already have to fulfill their expectation and decide if it's worth adapting to fulfill what we presently don't and do it if it's the case. Then there would have to be another "let's turn around the bad red" campaign together with "hey, it only costs $10 - why not get it".

Mysticpuma
Jan-12-2014, 08:50
Oh, and make it compatible with Hyperlobby :)

56RAF_klem
Jan-12-2014, 09:15
Hi MP,

It's true that for the most part I am only interested in the most realistic sims and if that makes me a purist that's fine by me but I hope you don't think all 'purists' are 'snobs' or think players of arcade games are 'muppets'. My comments are intended to encourage people to see CoD for the full extent of what it has to offer but there are several 'dogfight' servers available and as has been pointed out, very few people use them. I think CoD by its nature doesn't encourage 'easy play' because to get to that there is an install and setup process that needs time and understanding and a play aspect even on easy settings that needs practice. It isn't an easy door to open. I think these things put some 'gamers' off because that alone calls for some effort and understanding whereas 'purists' don't find that effort a problem because they are avid simmers, by definition open to learning and working things out. That doesn't mean all CoD players are or need to be purists but I think it does mean that newcomers often need a hand up, even onto dogfight servers. When I started out years ago in Air Warrior I definitely wasn't a purist or even a 'virtual pilot' but it was so much easier to play, as was Aces High (although a 'move up'), with their powerful Host computers, simple CD install, click-to-play on-line and if I remember correctly auto-updating. OTOH, the 'arcade' games don't need purist support, they survive very well due to easy install, autoupdating snd their gaming aspect with quick solo returns and little or no need to team up, organise missions etc but just go kill stuff and die.

There's no doubt that to get more people playing CoD we need to make the door much easier to open. Advertising CoD is a bit of a problem. Youtube and the like relies on chance hits as do forums. A real publicity opportunity would be great but where? And who is going to fund it other than Magazine reviews? It seems to me to come down to word of mouth and for that perhaps we should be playing in arcade games and recruiting, ready to help the new guys. :hpyflying:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-12-2014, 09:44
Oh, and make it compatible with Hyperlobby :)

HL is being closed down... or so I'm told.

1lokos
Jan-12-2014, 10:46
:)
Oh, and make it compatible with Hyperlobby :)

Already done:

6665

And with "Quakebirds" server (Trollvile).

And always empty...


Sokol1

carbolicus
Jan-12-2014, 17:06
I've been hugely interested in the Battle of Britain for years, and once was a pilot, and CloD is therefore potentially a dream come true for me. But I have zero confidence with computers and am resigned to never being able to have this sim because the thought of trying to get it all to work is completely off-putting.

Give me one button to press though and it all installs and works - well, then I'd buy a new PC and get on with it. How many more people are there like me who'd swell the numbers if you didn't have to be a techie to run this sim?

The effort to make it simple to install etc might pay dividends in terms of attracting people like me (ie older and not PC literate!)

Looks like a great job though Team Fusion! Best of luck chaps and wish I was coming with you!

ATAG_Lolsav
Jan-12-2014, 18:11
Give me one button to press though and it all installs and works - well, then I'd buy a new PC and get on with it. How many more people are there like me who'd swell the numbers if you didn't have to be a techie to run this sim?

Well i can tell you that i know there is a will to do it like you said. But the perfect solution wasnt found yet. The best to all was if STEAM accepted Team Fusion work as a download to be installed. That would save the users and developers a lot of hassle. So.. we need to campaign STEAM for it. Make Team Fusion MOD a Steam friendly one!

Incog
Jan-17-2014, 11:14
I've been hugely interested in the Battle of Britain for years, and once was a pilot, and CloD is therefore potentially a dream come true for me. But I have zero confidence with computers and am resigned to never being able to have this sim because the thought of trying to get it all to work is completely off-putting.

Give me one button to press though and it all installs and works - well, then I'd buy a new PC and get on with it. How many more people are there like me who'd swell the numbers if you didn't have to be a techie to run this sim?

The effort to make it simple to install etc might pay dividends in terms of attracting people like me (ie older and not PC literate!)

Looks like a great job though Team Fusion! Best of luck chaps and wish I was coming with you!


It's true that you can't press a button to install and get going.

In reality though, you have to press 4 or 5 and they're very easy buttons to press either way, TF comes with installers so you have to do almost nothing. It takes about 10 minutes, if that.

rscaper1070
Jan-17-2014, 13:47
Everybody here should write a positive review at Metacritic to offset all the bad reviews that the game received when it came out. The Metacritic score ends up on the Steam store page when people are deciding to buy it or not. Right now it's 6.2 out of 10.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/il-2-sturmovik-cliffs-of-dover

darkside3/4
Jan-17-2014, 14:53
Reviewed, she's sitting at 6.3 now

69th_Spiritus
Feb-01-2014, 19:32
This is how:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25952939

Major news publicity on the BBC. We should send the writer an email about CloD and the realism difference, especially if they are going to use World of Warplanes as reliving the experience. Does it get closer to the real thing than CloD?

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-01-2014, 21:46
The Metacritic score ends up on the Steam store page when people are deciding to buy it or not.

This is a revelation to me...How did we not spot this....DOH!!!

@ rscaper ....How did you find this out?...are you sure that it is influencing STEAM...I mean if it is then thats a bigger deal than any review rating I can think of....Great find..You are a star!!!

Thanks....I put on a 10 with a review.....

Its 6.4 now.....

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-01-2014, 21:54
This is how:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25952939

Major news publicity on the BBC. We should send the writer an email about CloD and the realism difference, especially if they are going to use World of Warplanes as reliving the experience. Does it get closer to the real thing than CloD?

Very strange to see a flight sim on a news program...especially the Beeb...I'm not sure how we can get in there with our devs abandoned masterpiece though....but at least its an advert for a flight sim...even if it is 'War Thunder'...I mean some players coming to the community is something at least...isn't it?...

PS ..the War Thunder vid in that link looks superb.....apart from the ingame footage which looks like an arcade machine!!

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-01-2014, 22:23
I only just realised that there is a facility to review CLOD actually within STEAM....and out of the whole world there are only 42 reviews there....so I copied and pasted my review from AMAZON ther....eSTEAM only gives you the option to 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' a game...

also...

Its very easy to copy and paste the same review to AMAZON, STEAM and Metacritic in a few minutes.....

miaig
Feb-03-2014, 14:47
I just started playing CLOD (I don't have much experience with other sims either) and I am thinking that my experience is typical for a lot of beginners. While this post would not be helpful for attracting people to CLOD, it might help with making things easier once they decide to try it. Please don't read this as a series of complains. I had fun doing this and I know there is a lot to learn and that requires effort. I just wish it would be easier.

First of all, the "Beginners guide to Cliffs of Dover - Start Here" thread is very good, thank you for that. I followed the instructions there and I had the game running in no time. Bellow are the things that I struggled with (and I still do with most):
- have default configs for some of the most used joysticks
- how to properly use the throttle, propeller pitch and mixture
- what is boost
- why does the Spitfire engine stops from time to time
- why does the Spitfire seems to want to fly with its right wing down even though I try to trim it
- how to "translate" what the instructor says in single player missions.
- how to display the instruments on a second monitor (how do you see see the compass behind the stick otherwise ?).
- how does the compass work (I just couldn't believe it was showing N-S correctly but W-E reversed)
- why does the airplane flips over just when you start to taxi
- i guess it would be nice to have a tutorial on aerial manoeuvres somehow like the existing game tutorial (which would be very helpful if the rings that you're supposed to fly through would actually be there and if the instructor would actually make sense with his instructions). There is a thread with links towards some dogfighting pdfs, but how do you actually know you did a rolling scissor?, or how do you even know you took a simple turn correctly for that matter?

Some of the information above I did manage to find on this forum or on other websites, but again, I think it would be easier to just find it all in one place.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Feb-03-2014, 15:55
...how do you actually know you did a rolling scissor?

A rolling scissors requires two aircraft, it is a series of maneuvers whereby one aircraft, which starts out in front as a target, tries to get the original attacker to overshoot and end out in front of the original defender.

Some diagrams:

http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/fset.jpg

http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/fset2.jpg

http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/fset3.jpg

The defender does that by rolling back and forth in front of the pursuing aircraft, using reductions in throttle and superior rollrate to force the overshoot.

miaig
Feb-03-2014, 16:26
A rolling scissors requires two aircraft, it is a series of maneuvers whereby one aircraft, which starts out in front as a target, tries to get the original attacker to overshoot and end out in front of the original defender.


Hi Buzzsaw,

Thank you for the explanation but I'm not sure my question was clear. I was wondering not how to execute it, but how to make sure you execute it correctly, how to train for it. As an example, until very recently I thought that when turning left, in order to keep the nose high you should apply right rudder, the more you sink, the more rudder. This is of course wrong but this is how I turned anyway. So my question would be, how do you execute manoeuvres correctly? IRL you would get an instructor to fly with you, but how do you do it in a sim where there is nobody to tell you when you're doing it wrong, and what's more you can't feel you're skidding, or you're pulling too many G's.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Feb-03-2014, 16:31
Hi Buzzsaw,

Thank you for the explanation but I'm not sure my question was clear. I was wondering not how to execute it, but how to make sure you execute it correctly, how to train for it. As an example, until very recently I thought that when turning left, in order to keep the nose high you should apply right rudder, the more you sink, the more rudder. This is of course wrong but this is how I turned anyway. So my question would be, how do you execute manoeuvres correctly? IRL you would get an instructor to fly with you, but how do you do it in a sim where there is nobody to tell you when you're doing it wrong, and what's more you can't feel you're skidding, or you're pulling too many G's.

Best thing to do is to join an online Squadron and practice with another pilot.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Feb-03-2014, 16:41
Here are the facts:

Becoming a good online pilot requires a lot of practice and experience. It means a lot of flying and dying.

There is a very steep learning curve... it's not a simple process.

That is one of the reasons why when finally you achieve some skill, it is so rewarding.

An average combat pilot in WWII required 300-400 hours of pre-combat training to bring him up to the level of being able to fly in combat.

After that he required another 2-3 months in combat flying to become reasonably proficient.

Call that perhaps 600-1000 hours of flying.

Now CLIFFS OF DOVER is just a simulation, but in the basic requirements for understanding maneuver in 3 dimensions, learning how to spot opponents, learning how to place yourself in tactically optimal positions, learning how to shoot accurately, the game and real life are quite similar.

So you can understand why so many players get frustrated... and why so many of us, even after 10-15 years of online flying, are still learning new skills.

miaig
Feb-03-2014, 17:10
Here are the facts:

Becoming a good online pilot requires a lot of practice and experience. It means a lot of flying and dying.


Ok, I understand that, but what is a good way of doing it? Just go online and be shot down a lot? There is no other, more advanced tutorial for a beginner to pick up a few skills? Like you said, in WWII there were some 300-400 hours of combat training before being sent to fight. Is there somewhere the equivalent of that?


Best thing to do is to join an online Squadron and practice with another pilot.
I only saw you first answer after I wrote the above. What is the proper etiquette for asking people to help you practice? When I went online they were people on Teamspeak but pretty much everybody was under "allied forces" or "axis forces" so that didn't seem like a good place to ask for help since they were discussing the game that was taking place.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Feb-03-2014, 17:16
What is the proper etiquette for asking people to help you practice? When I went online they were people on Teamspeak but pretty much everybody was under "allied forces" or "axis forces" so that didn't seem like a good place to ask for help since they were discussing the game that was taking place.

Most people won't spend the time to practice with a new player, but often they will offer to fly 'Wingman' with you.

With a wingman you will have a much better chance of surviving, you will have contacts spotted by your wingman and pointed out to you, and generally you will learn a lot.

On some occasions you will get lucky, and there will be a really generous pilot online who will fly some practice time with you, some maneuvers, etc.

Best way to ask is simply to tell the truth... "I am a new pilot, I am looking to learn, can I fly wingman with someone, or can some one help me through some maneuvers."

miaig
Feb-03-2014, 17:27
Best way to ask is simply to tell the truth... "I am a new pilot, I am looking to learn, can I fly wingman with someone, or can some one help me through some maneuvers."

Ok, thanks for the answers, I will ask on Teamspeak then. :thumbsup:

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-03-2014, 17:38
I just started playing CLOD (I don't have much experience with other sims either) and I am thinking that my experience is typical for a lot of beginners. While this post would not be helpful for attracting people to CLOD, it might help with making things easier once they decide to try it. Please don't read this as a series of complains. I had fun doing this and I know there is a lot to learn and that requires effort. I just wish it would be easier.

First of all, the "Beginners guide to Cliffs of Dover - Start Here" thread is very good, thank you for that. I followed the instructions there and I had the game running in no time. Bellow are the things that I struggled with (and I still do with most):
- have default configs for some of the most used joysticks
- how to properly use the throttle, propeller pitch and mixture
- what is boost
- why does the Spitfire engine stops from time to time
- why does the Spitfire seems to want to fly with its right wing down even though I try to trim it
- how to "translate" what the instructor says in single player missions.
- how to display the instruments on a second monitor (how do you see see the compass behind the stick otherwise ?).
- how does the compass work (I just couldn't believe it was showing N-S correctly but W-E reversed)
- why does the airplane flips over just when you start to taxi
- i guess it would be nice to have a tutorial on aerial manoeuvres somehow like the existing game tutorial (which would be very helpful if the rings that you're supposed to fly through would actually be there and if the instructor would actually make sense with his instructions). There is a thread with links towards some dogfighting pdfs, but how do you actually know you did a rolling scissor?, or how do you even know you took a simple turn correctly for that matter?

Some of the information above I did manage to find on this forum or on other websites, but again, I think it would be easier to just find it all in one place.

Wow...there's a stack of questions there buddy and would take a long time to answer one after the other...also folks won't come to this thread to explain these things either....

so...

The best thing to do with this is to start a 'New player here with questions' thread of its own....Start a thread in the 'Welcome' area of the forums and get some answers to your question....

Thanks buddy...~S~

miaig
Feb-03-2014, 17:57
Wow...there's a stack of questions there buddy and would take a long time to answer one after the other...also folks won't come to this thread to explain these things either....


Hi Lewis,
Having my questions answered here wasn't my intention although I am grateful Buzzsaw answered probably the most important one. It was just to show the kind of problems a beginner goes against.

rscaper1070
Feb-03-2014, 18:04
How did you find this out?...are you sure that it is influencing STEAM


Glad to be a help. I'm not sure how influential it ultimately is, but I think it's better to have a better score than not have one. It's on the Steam store page by the system requirements and stuff.

7291



I was wondering not how to execute it, but how to make sure you execute it correctly, how to train for it.

I've found that Youtube tutorials are a great way to find out about the basics then make a simple mission without anyone shooting at you and practice. I would recommend checking out the tutorials by Requiem. Most of them are for RoF or BoS but he does an excellent job teaching you the what and why's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMnnegKjH5Y

https://www.youtube.com/user/Requiem10NS?feature=watch
https://www.youtube.com/user/RequiemBoS

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-03-2014, 18:34
Thanks rscaper1070...Thats cleared up my question...~S~

Ginko89
Feb-03-2014, 18:35
Hi, in my opinion, there are too much bad words, and bad reviews, people are spreading (arcade)superstitions about “Cliffs of Dover”.
New person might give up, without trying the game.

Once Convinced, you will not convince.
By knowing that, focus on new players. Just keep the hard work up, be polite and helpful.
Forcing is bad, and might come with reverse move.

Cheers!

miaig
Feb-03-2014, 18:35
I've found that Youtube tutorials are a great way to find out about the basics then make a simple mission without anyone shooting at you and practice. I would recommend checking out the tutorials by Requiem. Most of them are for RoF or BoS but he does an excellent job teaching you the what and why's.


Thanks, I will check them out.

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-03-2014, 22:12
, people are spreading (arcade)superstitions about “Cliffs of Dover”.!

Where is that coming from?....I can't understand that..and its the second new player thats said that.....I mean one glance at youtube should clear that fallacy up easily enough

ATAG_Freya
Feb-03-2014, 22:29
It's mind boogaling...only one explanation I can think of..

http://img.pandawhale.com/32054-joseph-ducreaux-haters-gonna-h-ermI.jpeg

Rummy1963
Feb-04-2014, 00:47
As a newbie to IL-2 CLOD, I think I fit the bill for commenting on how to attract more members. Firstly, it may help to know that my background is racing sims and tactical shooters, the more realistic the better. Having played Microsoft Combat Flight Sim 2, IL-2 (all versions), and Rise of Flight, I was excited to discover on Steam forums that IL-2 CLOD has a Team Fusion mod that fixed IL-2 CLOD. Let's face it, the poor release of IL-2 CLOD forever sent many of us away, waiting and hoping for something similar. The Team Fusion mod drew me in. I must say that the mod installation was less than easy and that's from someone who patches, installs mods, and hosts multiplayer through a router with port forwarding, etc. Although the 2 installation videos were extremely well done, the process of having to install 3 different patches with precise instructions is daunting to many. My brother and a friend are watching from afar to see what my experience is like before jumping in. We have all bought the necessary hardware but the CEM (Complex Engine Management - abbreviation explained for other newbies like me) is very frustrating. I agree that a short introductory video that covers the basics so a pilot can get up in the air and circle the airfield without blowing up their engine is highly recommended. I also advise a second video would be useful for explaining how to get the best speed out of the plane by minor adjustements. I hear that some pilots only use trim for rudder, elevator, and ailerons. And what is "War Emergency Power"? Should I be using flaps or air brakes in combat? Then, finally, the recommendation of a newbie server with veterans that follows the New Wings server for Rise of Flight is highly recommended. My friend is building a dedicated server so we can practise IL-2 CLOD in a safe environment so we don't get our planes repeatedly shot down. It might be an idea to have a server that does not have CEM as a stepping stone to more advanced combat with CEM. Again, New Wings has this. One last thought, Requiem has a series of tactics videos on the New Wings website that are first-rate. Perhaps, some IL-2 CLOD pilots could create similar videos demonstrating the same tactics in IL-2 CLOD.
In closing, I feel that IL-2 CLOD is a great game but there is a steep learning curve, even for players who enter it from other sim genres. I want to extend a hearty thank-you to the pilots who have helped me get this far. I look forward to shooting down my first plane. See you in the skies.

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-04-2014, 08:27
Thanks Rummy...some interesting points there...thanks for the write up...~S~

Mudcat
Feb-04-2014, 11:09
Well how does anything get promoted these days?

Is there a facebook page for it? ATAG or TF? While it may not be something all of us use, it is something that having one is not going to hurt, plenty of people are on there, a presence there is one step. Upload some vid's, status of incoming patches, After Action Reports even.

How about Twitter? Updates on the current server status ie, 87 people on flying... or things like Action heating up over Dunkirk (for example), Blue's need reserves.. TF patch 4.01 coming next week... While sure it's not historically accurate to have pilots tweeting out battle reports, it's just getting the word out. A quick hey, here's what's going on here right now can get people interested.

Dedicated Youtube Channel? Post up video's there, with all the film makers in the community I'm sure there would be plenty willing to help out to create some promotional video's. Place tutorial video's for beginners there. Share favorite movies featuring CloD and the ATAG server there. Make it a showcase. For the video's, maybe add some tags to the video's for other flight sim games, I mean heck can't hurt to have someone looking for video's of say War Thunder FRB battles (for instance) see a CloD video or two show up in their search. Part of the battle is letting people know you are there. The product speaks for itself.

Amazon/Steam/Metacritic reviews are nice, but I think a growing number of gamers may look at them, but not give a whole lot of weight to the scores. Meta critic is a perfect example, right now the user score is 6.5 with 69 reviews, but of those 44 are positive, 22 are negative with only actually 3 being mix (which is where the rating sits at). Reviews from launch and just general roach reviews that often get put up on metacritic don't tell the story.

For reviews, Steam actually seems rather decent in that not only can you see what someone said, thumbs up or thumbs down, but it also shows how long they spent playing the game. So if you see someone bash the crap out of a game but they only played for 0.2 hours you can sorta weight the review in your own mind.

Once upon a time reviews meant something, these days where everyone has an opinion and isn't too shy about sharing it I'm not so sure they matter as much, as say any of the other social media stuff where it's more of, see for yourself instead of read some kids rant on metacritic.

Last thing I can think of is pertaining to other flight sims again, I think most official forums have Off-Topic sections where you could talk about CloD and not be breaking any of their forums rules etc. I know if it wasn't for people mentioning it on other forums I wouldn't have gotten around to flying here.

Sorry for the walls of text, just wanted to throw some things out there in an attempt to be helpful :-)

*Apologies if any of this has been said already, but at 13 pages I'll admit I haven't read all the posts here already.

Mudcat
Feb-04-2014, 11:12
Forgot to add, would be amazing if someone could get Steam to add Steam Workshop for the game. No idea how to do that, but that would bring the TF mod to the masses in an easily accessible way, among other things.

ChiefRedCloud
Feb-04-2014, 11:33
Very strange to see a flight sim on a news program...especially the Beeb...I'm not sure how we can get in there with our devs abandoned masterpiece though....but at least its an advert for a flight sim...even if it is 'War Thunder'...I mean some players coming to the community is something at least...isn't it?...

PS ..the War Thunder vid in that link looks superb.....apart from the ingame footage which looks like an arcade machine!!

First, as a suggestion, you want to get your group of video editors together and then Perhaps try to emulate how this lady er, the beeb has put this short video together about War Thunder. And then reflect CloD. Someone can do the commentary or make it like an interview with some of the TF folks. Put dramatic footage together and perhaps enhance or embellish a bit.

Perhaps an historical lead in would be nice .... "The Autumn of 1940 dawned with the realization that war was on the horizon" .... Show footage of sun coming up over the Cliifs or such ..... " and young airmen were preparing to give their best endeavor. ..... and on ...... get the idea? Then, within our legal bounds not to cross any such lines, someone verbally describe what CloD is and where it's coming from and where it's going. All the comments are background for all the visuals ...... Keep it concise as TV's wont give you more than about 3 to 5 minutes top.

Another chain of thought is to take one of the excellent videos that already exist and add commentary behind the original track telling folks what they are seeing. I.e. explaining what CloD is and is about.

WindWpn
Feb-04-2014, 12:23
Get more people to play...?! I think ATAG is there. This weekend, I could not get on as the server sat at 100 flyers most all of the afternoon US EST. Seems most any time of the day/night the server hosts very nice numbers! Great to see the support/participation on a full real server for CLOD! Mod updates are first class too!

~S~
wind

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-04-2014, 13:53
Wow..Brilliant ideas there Mudcat..facebook..and a Dedicated Youtube Channel...

Great ideas buddy...you're a star!!

Mudcat
Feb-04-2014, 14:32
Wow..Brilliant ideas there Mudcat..facebook..and a Dedicated Youtube Channel...

Great ideas buddy...you're a star!!

Thanks, although I'll take that as serious, but in all honesty I think i've been on the internet too much as 7313 :)

Also a review of the mod here wouldn't hurt http://www.moddb.com/ not sure how to go about that though or other sites that do reviews of mods, not sure who that would encompass, that's just the only one I know off the top of my head.

I just figure, facebook, youtube, twitter seems to be the (un)holy trinity when it comes to promoting games these days, so just treat it like any other game in that regard I suppose. Seems like it takes a whole social media team to do anything these days.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-04-2014, 14:57
Get more people to play...?! I think ATAG is there. This weekend, I could not get on as the server sat at 100 flyers most all of the afternoon US EST. Seems most any time of the day/night the server hosts very nice numbers! Great to see the support/participation on a full real server for CLOD! Mod updates are first class too!

~S~
wind

Hi Wind. when this happens, PLEASE jump on another server.
For example S.O.W server is quite similar (full real etc..)

If we start to join that server, more people will follow. It just takes the brave first few who cannot get into ATAG to make the jump over.

Then, just maybe, we can have two servers with loads of players in each, instead of just one!

ChiefRedCloud
Feb-04-2014, 19:24
There is a Facebook page here ---> IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover Community (https://www.facebook.com/groups/298167406958460/) operated by Joseph John DesChenes that would be happy of any inputs there or another Facebook page could be started. I think a YouTube Channel just for TeamFusion Cliffs of Dover would be great. And the Moddb is something I had not thought about.

Mudcat
Feb-04-2014, 19:53
My goodness shame on me, I completely forgot about streaming on Twitch.tv

donik
Feb-04-2014, 22:18
I was looking on twitch the other day to see if anyone happened to be streaming.

I should probably learn how to get that set up. Shouldn't take much I think? I already have a basic account..

Wulf
Feb-04-2014, 23:24
If it hasn't already been mentioned, might I suggest that, at some point, means be found (assuming it's even possible) to consolidate the various TF patches into a single download.

I think it should be remembered that not everyone delights in the prospect of bumping-up a game with a complex sequence of upgrades. I imagine a number of potential players have fronted up to the forum all full of enthusiasm, had a look at what's involved and promptly lost interest. The more patches that are produced the more problematic this issue becomes. Just sayin ...

donik
Feb-11-2014, 22:59
So, I've been playing around with trying to stream on twitch using Open Broadcaster Software (OBS).

After a night and a half - make that 2 nights now (and an annoyed wife, i made her monitor on her laptop) playing around with settings in OBS and in COD, I finally had a legit stream going for my single player test mission. Smooth as butter and good quality. Happy happy!

4-5 friends watching, (who don't play but have interest) I decide to get on ATAG and try my hand. Loss of huge FPS for me, friends said the stream kept cutting in and out and was nearly unwatchable because of that and FPS. Obviously it was because of the massive action going on around the airfield when I logged in...

Need to tweak more settings, but not sure where to look. Anyone familiar with this streaming stuff? I have to run the game in Pseudo mode to get OBS to stream the game.. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the massive FPS hit.

Point of all this is if I can get it working good, I'll always have it on when I play 3-5 times a week. Good public coverage to potentially get more players!

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Feb-12-2014, 01:05
If it hasn't already been mentioned, might I suggest that, at some point, means be found (assuming it's even possible) to consolidate the various TF patches into a single download.

I think it should be remembered that not everyone delights in the prospect of bumping-up a game with a complex sequence of upgrades. I imagine a number of potential players have fronted up to the forum all full of enthusiasm, had a look at what's involved and promptly lost interest. The more patches that are produced the more problematic this issue becomes. Just sayin ...

This is something we would like to do.

However, we have lots of difficultly building the smaller patches, combining all the patches into one is an enormously intricate process... and one error means you need to do it again. After spending 10 hours putting it together and 10 hours uploading, one mistake means starting over.

So it won't happen for TF 4.2, although maybe after TF 4.2, given some time we may release a combined patch. But only after we have a good functional TF 4.2 out and in use.

56RAF_klem
Feb-12-2014, 06:54
This is something we would like to do.

However, we have lots of difficultly building the smaller patches, combining all the patches into one is an enormously intricate process... and one error means you need to do it again. After spending 10 hours putting it together and 10 hours uploading, one mistake means starting over.

So it won't happen for TF 4.2, although maybe after TF 4.2, given some time we may release a combined patch. But only after we have a good functional TF 4.2 out and in use.

Excuse my ignorance but is it necessary to try to integrate the patches? Couldn't, say, TF4.2 be installed to a current TF4.00 installation and then a Stock/TF4.2 'differences' files package be collated for a one-time install? It could come with a Health warning that stock files will be overwritten and that personal ini files should be backed up first (unless an installer is used that will do that). I have always renamed the backed up files to say maddox_Stock.dll, maddox_3_0.dll etc but I have never actually needed them and I don't think the general public would either. The Health warning can also carry simple instructions in the event of problems like 're-validate' or 'uninstall/re-install'.

donik
Feb-12-2014, 07:46
This is something we would like to do.

However, we have lots of difficultly building the smaller patches, combining all the patches into one is an enormously intricate process... and one error means you need to do it again. After spending 10 hours putting it together and 10 hours uploading, one mistake means starting over.

So it won't happen for TF 4.2, although maybe after TF 4.2, given some time we may release a combined patch. But only after we have a good functional TF 4.2 out and in use.

Using AutoIT could work for you guys. I'm no script/coder, but a gentleman I work with is. He makes quite intricate scripts for people to run on their computers to get things installed without Admin rights directly given (work related).
You can keep your 3 installers for now, why not string them together with AutoIT? When 3.00 finishes, it runs 3.01, 4.0, etc. It could be an extra downloaded option. You could bundle the TF updates within an AutoIT exe so all they have to grab is "one file", or you can require all patches be downloaded to a directory as well as the scripted exe. At which point it would just call to the downloaded files. You could make a Mod Uninstall option with AutoIT as well, "easily".

I just figured i'd mention it, might be something to look in to. You can change the icon for your new installer as well. Nobody would know the difference between the script stringing it all together or an actual, integrated installer :-P

Rummy1963
Feb-12-2014, 09:04
I saw that this game was rated "60" on Metacritic so I posted a review. I suggest any players who love this game add their own review so we can drown out the old reviews posted pre-Team Fusion. It only takes a moment.

Macro
Feb-12-2014, 10:14
Steam reviews! I read them all the time on games didnt even think about that! will do one when i get in

Mudcat
Feb-12-2014, 10:40
So, I've been playing around with trying to stream on twitch using Open Broadcaster Software (OBS).

After a night and a half - make that 2 nights now (and an annoyed wife, i made her monitor on her laptop) playing around with settings in OBS and in COD, I finally had a legit stream going for my single player test mission. Smooth as butter and good quality. Happy happy!

4-5 friends watching, (who don't play but have interest) I decide to get on ATAG and try my hand. Loss of huge FPS for me, friends said the stream kept cutting in and out and was nearly unwatchable because of that and FPS. Obviously it was because of the massive action going on around the airfield when I logged in...

Need to tweak more settings, but not sure where to look. Anyone familiar with this streaming stuff? I have to run the game in Pseudo mode to get OBS to stream the game.. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the massive FPS hit.

Point of all this is if I can get it working good, I'll always have it on when I play 3-5 times a week. Good public coverage to potentially get more players!

I see the gtx 780 from your sig, so I'll just suggest maybe trying out shadowplay. Like the video recorder, I don't notice any FPS drop, but occasionally get a stutter. Only issue I had was it adding about 300 ms to my ping, which actually isn't any different than anything else I tried. Just need to get me some faster internets I suppose

donik
Feb-12-2014, 20:14
I see the gtx 780 from your sig, so I'll just suggest maybe trying out shadowplay. Like the video recorder, I don't notice any FPS drop, but occasionally get a stutter. Only issue I had was it adding about 300 ms to my ping, which actually isn't any different than anything else I tried. Just need to get me some faster internets I suppose

Finally, after I had written this post I seem to have found a nice sweet spot in the settings. Streaming at game res of 1680x1050 @ 30 fps (had it at 45 before) and some other minor tweaks, I don't notice any lag on my end and some friends had a blast nit picking my flying/aiming.

Broke up a formation of stukas with 1 or 2 friendlies, FPS stayed 45+ the whole time. Will make it a habit to stream every time I jump on ATAG :thumbsup:

Artist
Feb-13-2014, 03:05
Steam reviews! I read them all the time on games didnt even think about that! will do one when i get inI need a little help here: whenever I try to do that, I find myself in a loop: "recommend a game", "choose game", "recommend a game", "choose game", ad infinitivum. What`s the magic button I do not see?
Artist

Macro
Feb-13-2014, 07:31
You do it where you see the other reviews i think. Will find the button later

Macro
Feb-13-2014, 14:47
go to games library, right click on cliffs of dover and write review option is there.

edit: actually see what you mean.

Go to games store page, under the advert there is a space there to write review.

Artist
Feb-13-2014, 15:08
go to games library, right click on cliffs of dover and write review option is there.

edit: actually see what you mean.

What a relief - I started to think it's me ...


Go to games store page, under the advert there is a space there to write review.
Thanks a lot

Cheers,
Artist

ATAG_Lewis
Feb-13-2014, 16:35
Good positive work....and fresh ideas brought to an old but important thread...

Very impressed....~S~

Macro
Feb-14-2014, 04:57
Dont forget to rate other peopled reviews too

Osprey
Feb-14-2014, 07:36
Hi Wind. when this happens, PLEASE jump on another server.
For example S.O.W server is quite similar (full real etc..)

If we start to join that server, more people will follow. It just takes the brave first few who cannot get into ATAG to make the jump over.

Then, just maybe, we can have two servers with loads of players in each, instead of just one!

ACG are launching a server but at present we'll need to close it for our Sunday campaigns, then we'll make it public.

I also want to set up an open pit/beginners server, doesn't need to hold a lot but would be good to have an easier settings server for people to hop into.

I liked Hyperlobby because of the chat facility but the moderator was an absolute cow, a nasty bit of work (forget her name), really puts me off ever wanting to use HL again. Point is that IP chat is very useful in any lobby, lots of beginners there would need our support.

When we have several full servers, when the Americas have full servers too, then we are rocking!

Continu0
Feb-14-2014, 08:22
ACG are launching a server but at present we'll need to close it for our Sunday campaigns, then we'll make it public.

I also want to set up an open pit/beginners server, doesn't need to hold a lot but would be good to have an easier settings server for people to hop into.


Great to hear that Osprey!!!!

Macro
Feb-14-2014, 10:03
I always thought a training server would be a good idea. Problem is you need to admin it all the time so it dont turn into a regular dogfight server where the new guys getting shot to hell all the time.

Is it possible to make script where server recognises kill ratio and says something like" training over go play full real your too good for this now" or such like?

56RAF_klem
Feb-14-2014, 15:37
I always thought a training server would be a good idea. Problem is you need to admin it all the time so it dont turn into a regular dogfight server where the new guys getting shot to hell all the time.

Is it possible to make script where server recognises kill ratio and says something like" training over go play full real your too good for this now" or such like?

Well, the idea of a training server suggests on-line play. That in turn suggests people being available not just to Admin it but to provide the training. There isn't much point in a bunch of newbies turning up to train eachother, that would be the blind leading the blind. It is possible to train essentially 'alone' on-line and off-line until you feel you have achieved a 'standard' and, yes, in a map session where your scores are recorded it should be possible to track you as a player and watch for say 2:1 kill ratio. But that requires someone to provide a server and the missions. Also, you can succeed without knowing what you have really learned or whether you are up to repeating it in those other on-line servers. As soon as you go alone on line you are not giving yourself the best chances.

I know it's an old chestnut of mine but you really cannot do better than to join a Squad. They will teach you and they or anyone can run a training 'server' by just creating a server under Multiplayer... Server and loading a mission to train in.

My suggestion would be to decide which side you would prefer to fly with and spend a couple of weeks off-line learning one aeroplane (RAF: Spit Ia 100oct; LW: Bf109E-3).Fly it around from takeoff through some basic aerobatics, to landing. Good landings, be strict with yourself. Then fly a few off-line missions until you feel at home in the aircraft even if you aren't many getting kills. Just ask yourself if you think you can handle the aircraft well enough to to stay with a pairs leader most of the time through normal flying. It's about feeling you have a reasonable level of control of the aeroplane. Then go on line and look for guys to fly with who won't mind you asking questions and won't mind teaching you basic tactics, flying as a pair, etc.. You will learn much faster than any other way. The best way is to ask to join a Squad although with the benefit of Teamspeak you will find other guys who don't belong to Squads but regularly fly with other loose guys in a similar way.

You won't learn faster than going on line and making friends.

Osprey
Feb-16-2014, 12:34
I'm from the UK and no it isn't the best thing since sliced bread. What we have now is not even remotely close to a representation of the BOB. No huge bomber formations or fighting over London. As you described protecting airfields from vulching 109s is not what the Battle of Britain was about. I think if we did have a real representation of the Battle those with less interest in that air war would at least have a lot more to be wowed about. The battles we get at the moment are terribly dull, the main action tends to occur in furballs on the deck which is silly. It is very rare IMHO to come up against even 4 Spits/Hurricanes and the whole airwarfare feels very sparsely distributed. Maybe one day we will be able to have reasonably large (20-30) bomber formations, give the RAF the real experience of fighting in the BOB.


We do this every week in our internal campaign. Bomber formations of 50+, 25+ human fighters in the Luftwaffe, 25+ RAF fighters (split 2/3rds Hurricane) in the RAF awaiting the scramble from our RDF system.

It can be done, we are basically running a co-op. In 1946 you'd have furball servers, mission servers and co-ops, it's no different.

darkside3/4
Feb-19-2014, 03:07
I'm currently trying to keep 92 Phil's forum near the top of the forums for Star Citizen to keep visibility up. If you have anything good to add to this thread please do so. Videos are great. Its a huge community on that forum who fly all different types of flight sims, some even had Cliffs but gave up. Personally word of mouth has been the most successful in my opinion to bring players here. I'll try this approach the next several days and see if there are any results.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/99998/il2-cliffs-of-dover-inspired-by-the-joysticks-poll#latest

This might go back to the original poster of this thread that got deleted. Tell everyone and your sister about Cliffs, it works!

pilgrim_uk
Feb-22-2014, 20:18
You want to get more people to play online then make a server the way you don't want it to be played and see if it gets busy. i.e. being allowed to switch off the cockpit. Then change the settings to forced cockpit on at certain times. Of course make people aware this will happen but its a good way to find a middle ground.

Some people play the game for fun and being forced to play full real is probably a killer for people.

Pilot37
Feb-24-2014, 05:49
Well the general news was that CLOD was badly broken so that must keep half the community away. I stumbled across it this weekend, did some research and discovered the Team Fusion 4.2 mod is on it's way and bought the base game cheap on Steam for £6.49. I have got everything on full detail running smooth (nhancer for the anti-aliasing) and I now await the Team Fusion mod and then I am in.......

The next hurdle is always being the rookie and getting shot down instantly.....this happened to me on Rise of Flight and put me off.....I don't get the time I would like on the PC to skill up and get even.

This means that I am more likely to try a single player campaign.

56RAF_klem
Feb-24-2014, 06:24
Well the general news was that CLOD was badly broken so that must keep half the community away. I stumbled across it this weekend, did some research and discovered the Team Fusion 4.2 mod is on it's way and bought the base game cheap on Steam for £6.49. I have got everything on full detail running smooth (nhancer for the anti-aliasing) and I now await the Team Fusion mod and then I am in.......

The next hurdle is always being the rookie and getting shot down instantly.....this happened to me on Rise of Flight and put me off.....I don't get the time I would like on the PC to skill up and get even.

This means that I am more likely to try a single player campaign.

Hi Pilot27, welcome to the world of CoD :)

I suggest you get onto the ATAG Teamspeak, go online and talk to the other players. It's a very friendly and helpful community and you'll learn/survive more quickly that way. Not a recruiting attempt but if you're stuck look up one of the 56RAF guys, names like 56RAF_klem, 56RAF_Talisman etc..

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-24-2014, 07:29
.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Feb-24-2014, 07:31
Hi Pilot27, welcome to the world of CoD :)
I suggest you get onto the ATAG Teamspeak, go online and talk to the other players. It's a very friendly and helpful community and you'll learn/survive more quickly that way. Not a recruiting attempt but if you're stuck look up one of the 56RAF guys, names like 56RAF_klem, 56RAF_Talisman etc..

Klem is right. Look out for chaps like his as ask if you can team up with them.
You'll get way more support, and learn much faster than if you try to work it out alone.

Macro
Feb-24-2014, 07:31
Hi pilot. Yes its hard (more like impossible) for a rookie (no offence intended we were all rookies once) to get success online as most are experienced as not too much new blood around. Above post is best. Get on ts and wing up with someone. If you see a 71st_AH guy give one of us a shout we will be glad to help. Or anyone else on atag ts for that matter is usually very helpful.

Can learn loads on this forum, but theres nothing that matches someone watching your virtual 6.

DUI
Feb-24-2014, 07:36
Get on ts and wing up with someone.

+1!

And do not get influenced by the red attempts trying to force you into their Spitfires or Hurricanes. Deep in your heart you are a blue pilot. For sure... :D

JG4_sKylon
Feb-24-2014, 07:39
Luke, come to the blue side.... :devilish:

56RAF_klem
Feb-24-2014, 08:27
+1!

And do not get influenced by the red attempts trying to force you into their Spitfires or Hurricanes. Deep in your heart you are a blue pilot. For sure... :D

LOL!

You will have to wear Lederhosen and a hat with a feather! It will keep getting caught in the canopy.
And you will do a lot of this......
:skydive:

Osprey
Feb-24-2014, 10:45
Well the general news was that CLOD was badly broken so that must keep half the community away. I stumbled across it this weekend, did some research and discovered the Team Fusion 4.2 mod is on it's way and bought the base game cheap on Steam for £6.49. I have got everything on full detail running smooth (nhancer for the anti-aliasing) and I now await the Team Fusion mod and then I am in.......

The next hurdle is always being the rookie and getting shot down instantly.....this happened to me on Rise of Flight and put me off.....I don't get the time I would like on the PC to skill up and get even.

This means that I am more likely to try a single player campaign.

From reading this you haven't installed any mod? There are 2 majors to install on top of vanilla, tf3 then tf301 then tf4.

ChiefRedCloud
Feb-24-2014, 13:17
Well the general news was that CLOD was badly broken so that must keep half the community away. I stumbled across it this weekend, did some research and discovered the Team Fusion 4.2 mod is on it's way and bought the base game cheap on Steam for £6.49. I have got everything on full detail running smooth (nhancer for the anti-aliasing) and I now await the Team Fusion mod and then I am in.......

The next hurdle is always being the rookie and getting shot down instantly.....this happened to me on Rise of Flight and put me off.....I don't get the time I would like on the PC to skill up and get even.

This means that I am more likely to try a single player campaign.

Just a not on your frustration on RoF. First were you referring to single player or multiplayer? If it's mp then I would suggest our New Wings Basic Training server. It allows you to work with AI of varying degrees then if you would like you can join us for our Tuesday Night Fly-In's. On this night ALL aircraft are available on one map. And our volunteer instructors are there to help you with any thing they can. If you would like help outside of Tuesday night, just contact us on our New Wings forums. We have a complete library of text and video instructions.

Please note, as mentioned above, TeamSpeak 3 is a must as typing and flying are poor companions when your learning.

Chivas
Feb-24-2014, 14:52
I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned more than once. I believe the sim will completely turn the page on its bad start will be the release of the new theater with version 5.0. Especially if the mystery theater happens to be the long awaited MED.

Uwe
Feb-25-2014, 08:49
Single player needs to be fixed before you see a huge gain in player base.
Make single player version work well, with a good dynamic campaign and you will have a lot more downloads I recon.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Feb-25-2014, 08:59
You really think so? I only ever used SP for practicing something that I created a little mission for. It's all about MP for me and flying with my squadron Mates against other human pilots. For that I continue to thank TF and ATAG server fpr the oportunity to do just that. S!:thumbsup:

pilgrim_uk
Feb-25-2014, 14:41
The dynamic campaign as Uwe mentioned is the biggie. I Remember Playing Rowans battle of Britain campaigns 2 or 3 times before a patch was released. The campaign was that good I didn't notice it was broken. :)

A true playable dynamic game system that gives playability. Its about the single experience for me, multiplayer been there done that several times over. IL2 single player experience is just ten times better and you would have thought companies would have learned from that. ( obviously of course it had years to refine that) Once you get CLOD working its a truly astonishing looking game and playing the campaigns is great but always feel its missing that something to go with those graphics.

Decent AI and Dynamic campaign would bring people back its that simple.

Mysticpuma
Feb-25-2014, 14:59
One has been implemented in v4.2 release ;)

pilgrim_uk
Feb-25-2014, 18:27
Its the old saying "build it and they will come" if the dynamic campaign is that good and COD being only £6 to buy its a no brainer. :)

It will tide things over till Stalingrad ;)

Can only thank the folks involved in getting this far.

Uwe
Feb-26-2014, 01:11
You really think so? I only ever used SP for practicing something that I created a little mission for. It's all about MP for me and flying with my squadron Mates against other human pilots. For that I continue to thank TF and ATAG server fpr the oportunity to do just that. S!:thumbsup:
Id be willing to wager your in the vast minority in that regard. Personally I only fly once per week for a few hours with the ACG, but I do far more offline. I've no interest in the dogfight servers like atag, and the il2dcg is capable of much more historically accurate scenarios. I've reinstalled 46, the single player experience it's just better.
Only a fraction of the people who ever bought a copy of il2 showed up online, so why would you think CoD would be any different? It will live or die based on single player success.
But really, no one cares about offliners. They are by nature quiter than the onliners, and thus get ignored. I do not believe TF it's deliberately ignorinv offliners, just that they have yet to decipher the code where the many offline faults lie.

thomas
May-19-2014, 12:58
This has probably been said before but i think that bigger servers with something like 300-400 places would help. For such a big map 100 planes is not much. It would be really good if there was 1000 but i don't think my internet would be up for that. It would be nice to see formations of 30+ bombers.
Also would there be a way to get companies to remove old reviews before TF patches on the grounds that they were out of date? That nearly put me off but luckily i saw some of the videos on youtube.

darkside3/4
May-19-2014, 13:09
That's not a internet limitation, its a limitation on the game code.

ATAG_Lewis
May-19-2014, 13:21
Rgrt Thomas..Thanks for the input here..We have been through many different discussions in this thread and removing the old out of date and negative reviews is really a tough job....many of us have re-reviewed CLOD on sites like Amazon and have managed to swing the overall rating back in favour but not as much as we would have liked....

It has become apparent that the best course of action is not to try to get negative reviews re-addressed but to more simply add positive things onto the internet and most importantly flood youtube with positive gameplay videos...That has been the general concensus upto now...and that course of action has been working for us...Anything we address..or any video that we put on youtube stays put and so helps us move forward..

I think also that what is rarely mentioned in this thread is the 'word of mouth' folks we get here...basically because all the vets have already been through their friends lists and encouraged those that may be interested..but for any new player who has friends or is involved in clubs, squads or groups who haven't heard the news abot CLOD then there is room for improvement....and we often get new players who bring with them a small bunch of their buddies...or brothers..or family members......Its all good

The community here is growing.....

Continu0
May-19-2014, 13:33
I might add something here as well...

I think one crucial thing in which the community still could do better is beginners-support. Your thread is FANTASTIC Lewis and it really deserves it`s place on the top of the Forum. Further more we have Loslav who is providing multiple-language-support for the Steam-Community-Hub.

But still I think some things could be done. What about adding a training-campaign for all aircrafts with TF 5.0? The perfect solution probably would be to put a web-browser plugin into the GUI of the game. Like that, TF-News could be broadcastet within the GUI, game-tips could be added, explanations, Flight Mnuals, anything to make things easier for someone who is new to the game...

One positive thing to mention as well here: I frequently hear from people that we are probably the best community they have ever met... so we are not bad, but I think we could still do better:thumbsup:

439th_Wtornado
May-20-2014, 14:21
With the new patch out making the game more than just difficult to take off
and fly I find the game has went the way of LOCK ON a game that a lot bought
and paid for and nobody flew taken over by the hardcore jet community that
made a beautiful game that no one was even remotely interested in.

BOS will probably suffer for it too seeing they want more people to buy their
pre-order package and we hang on to our money and sit and wait to see
development and if they will hand that game off to the modders elite too.

Personally I find that the flightsim community as a whole took a battering the
last 2 game releases.

I use the Hyperlobby as a flight sim gauge to see how many new people are
are joining to learn to start there and work their way up towards this game.

Overall looking at everything,the old players are leaving the new players don't stay.

Should be interesting 5 years from now to see where it is all going.

darkside3/4
May-20-2014, 17:21
Wtornado not to rain on your parade but hyperlobby is probably not the best gauge on new players to cliffs and this genre in general. ATAG server is probably a better gauge to the health of cliffs overall. I played cliffs for the past 2 years before I found hyperlobby and 46. The takeoffs aren't that difficult if people are willing to use either team speak or the million videos available. If the takeoffs are so hard there is always war thunder which is much more simplified.

439th_Wtornado
May-20-2014, 20:50
Well it is not at all like IL-1946 or its predecessors I have been flying 1c products for 12 years now
and when I got my Clod dvd in august 2011 I couldn't even use it.You have been using it for 2 years
and even then 2 years ago it was far from what it is today TF did a superb job.

I don't personally care what they modify to the 1c products I always have and probably always will
fly them anyways.

It is not 47 pilots that is impressive on the Clod servers every day when I go look.I could fill a
34 player coop in 15 secs in the hyperlobby and you would have to wait to join the HL because the server
had 999 players on the server and was at max capacity. It was always full 24 hours a day 7 days week with
ten's of thousand's of pilots and if ATAG can pull that off I would be happy not only for them(because of all
of the hard work involved)but for the pilots too.

You missed that Jarhead2b and believe me you really missed something in flight simming during the IL-2 dynasty.

darkside3/4
May-20-2014, 21:55
Makes me a little concerned about the overall future of the genre. Will we make it too complex and cost prohibitive to make these games marketable?

Bucksnort
May-20-2014, 23:42
Another idea would be to set up the second ATAG server (which appears largely unused) like a "Normal" server in BoS with CEM turned off and external views, map and navigation icons and autopilot turned on and some AI opponents such as bomber streams with escorts. This could serve as a beginners server which would attract many more players. CloD doesn't have to be difficult and yet in "Normal" mode would still be much more immersive and fun than WarThunder by far. Some players on the beginners server would migrate up to the full switch ATAG server and some would not. This would feed your full switch server with new players and create more players overall which would mean more exposure for CloD. I think it would be a "win-win" for both the beginners server and the full switch server as those players who don't move up to the full switch server would still serve as opponents for new players trying out the begginers server, some of whom would eventually move up to full switch.

I've talked some friends into stopping by the ATAG server and to be honest they thought it was too difficult. I think the steep learning curve up front could be mitigated with a beginners server that wouldn't frustrate as many new players.

Respectfully submitted :salute:

ATAG_Bliss
May-21-2014, 00:25
Another idea would be to set up the second ATAG server (which appears largely unused) like a "Normal" server in BoS with CEM turned off and external views, map and navigation icons and autopilot turned on and some AI opponents such as bomber streams with escorts. This could serve as a beginners server which would attract many more players. CloD doesn't have to be difficult and yet in "Normal" mode would still be much more immersive and fun than WarThunder by far. Some players on the beginners server would migrate up to the full switch ATAG server and some would not. This would feed your full switch server with new players and create more players overall which would mean more exposure for CloD. I think it would be a "win-win" for both the beginners server and the full switch server as those players who don't move up to the full switch server would still serve as opponents for new players trying out the begginers server, some of whom would eventually move up to full switch.

I've talked some friends into stopping by the ATAG server and to be honest they thought it was too difficult. I think the steep learning curve up front could be mitigated with a beginners server that wouldn't frustrate as many new players.

Respectfully submitted :salute:

Hi Bucksnort,

I agree we need a relaxed realism setting server for Cliffs. I've thought about doing this but I was shot down at the time by the community here. But you're right, since the 2nd server remains empty the majority of the time besides campaigns and for TF testing, I think I'll setup a beginner server like you suggested.

My only realism change to what you have suggested would be to leave CEM on. Without CEM some planes would totally dominate the server/game and it would not be fun for the losing side. And tbh, as long as your rads are wide open and you keep the RPMs below max you can fly all day that way. But obviously if you have the correct rad/pitch/rpm settings you will be faster.

So would something like that work?

ATAG_Bliss
May-21-2014, 00:43
Well it is not at all like IL-1946 or its predecessors I have been flying 1c products for 12 years now
and when I got my Clod dvd in august 2011 I couldn't even use it.You have been using it for 2 years
and even then 2 years ago it was far from what it is today TF did a superb job.

I don't personally care what they modify to the 1c products I always have and probably always will
fly them anyways.

It is not 47 pilots that is impressive on the Clod servers every day when I go look.I could fill a
34 player coop in 15 secs in the hyperlobby and you would have to wait to join the HL because the server
had 999 players on the server and was at max capacity. It was always full 24 hours a day 7 days week with
ten's of thousand's of pilots and if ATAG can pull that off I would be happy not only for them(because of all
of the hard work involved)but for the pilots too.

You missed that Jarhead2b and believe me you really missed something in flight simming during the IL-2 dynasty.

I remember waiting for ever to get into HL back in the day. You'll notice I constantly complain about the ROF/BOS game engine just because, like you, IL2 was the dynasty for flight simming. And it was that way because of everything the IL2 game engine could do.

Sadly developers have lost touch with the reason il2 was soo successful in the 1st place. The only reason IL2COD is being modded is because not only because it shares all those same game engine abilities of old IL2, heck it's actually much more capable, the reason is because it's also got more complex FM, pretty much the undisputed king of DM, and when you throw in all the detail and millions of dollars poured into the game, you'd be amazed at what the Devs had in store for it. It's a bloody shame what happened to it's paid development because has the release version of the game been like the TF version we have now, IL2COD would have well been on its way to the next IL2 that we all remember.

The good thing is the word is spreading. More people are joining it everyday. More people are wanting to help make that dream a reality everyday. And tbh TF only needs time and those eager to help. So I honestly think when the next theatre and planesets comes out for Cliffs the start of that il2 saga of old may very well be a possibility. The way the game is setup and for mission making, the possibility for anything from SEOW to ADW etc is just a matter of coding it to work. The game will let you code and create far more than you can for 46. So the hope and the reason TF was started in the 1st place is because this is truly the last hope for what we all remember from 46. No other game engine besides 46 even comes close to what cliffs does as far as what we were all used to back in the day.

One of these days the Devs are going to realize it's not the flight simmer to blame for their product failing, low MP numbers, or the ability of the game. The Devs are to blame. And in the case of clod being shut down, let's just say some pretty underhanded politics happened in the background. And as they say, karma is a bitch.

So I know exactly where you are coming from. Trust me in saying enough people in TF when this all started have heard me preach about it. So all I can say is cliffs isn't dead. In reality it's just getting started.

69th_Spiritus
May-21-2014, 01:04
I've talked some friends into stopping by the ATAG server and to be honest they thought it was too difficult. I think the steep learning curve up front could be mitigated with a beginners server that wouldn't frustrate as many new players.


While I do agree that a server with certain options on/off could increase numbers, I wish people would give the 100% realism a shot or a second shot. Honestly, before CloD, I flew entirely in outside views with icons and never dreamed nor wanted anything different. Being forced to try it here changed my perspective.

Now, I will never go back. The reason for this was I came in willing to give it a shot but more importantly I asked for help and the people here stepped up. IMO, within 30 minutes everyone can be up flying managing systems and dogfighting, getting killed and getting kills.

The difficultly is what makes it rewarding. Its always the path or the journey thats most rewarding, not the final outcome. ATAGs flight school is something pretty cool. If people are more relaxed and don't want that, just ask for a 10 minute lesson and I know I am more than willing as are a lot of people here. Thats how I operate, I learned what I needed to get the Blenny off the ground and dropping bombs (the important stuff) in a 10 min lesson in mission and from there just learned from doing.

Bucksnort
May-21-2014, 03:42
Hi Bucksnort,

I agree we need a relaxed realism setting server for Cliffs. I've thought about doing this but I was shot down at the time by the community here. But you're right, since the 2nd server remains empty the majority of the time besides campaigns and for TF testing, I think I'll setup a beginner server like you suggested.

My only realism change to what you have suggested would be to leave CEM on. Without CEM some planes would totally dominate the server/game and it would not be fun for the losing side. And tbh, as long as your rads are wide open and you keep the RPMs below max you can fly all day that way. But obviously if you have the correct rad/pitch/rpm settings you will be faster.

So would something like that work?

That sounds great, Bliss :thumbsup:

I really appreciate it and I think others will also. I'll keep an eye on things and try to get some friends to stop by again also.

Thanks!

ATAG_Lewis
May-21-2014, 08:18
Honestly, before CloD, I flew entirely in outside views with icons and never dreamed nor wanted anything different. Being forced to try it here changed my perspective.

This was exactly to the letter what I experienced...We (Fire Squadron) still run an IL2 server in Hyperlobby (Skies Of Valor)...We use to run 2 servers (Skies Of Fire) and during the IL2 hayday we prided ourselves on the fact that for many years our servers where 2 of the most populated in Hyperlobby...Neither server was full real...the only difference being that one had the cockpit on and the other was wonder woman view...


The difficultly is what makes it rewarding. Its always the path or the journey thats most rewarding, not the final outcome. ATAGs flight school is something pretty cool.

The training help in ATAG is second to none..This community is so enthusiastic about introducing new players...Its fantastic

For my money it is still getting the word out that is the issue....Videos and reviews have worked and will continue to do so because they don't get withdrawn so remain in the public domain....All the effort we do does stick....Unfortunately this is also the problem because the bad reviews are still out there from when CLOD was released that we can do little about....in short the negative vibe stuck like sh*t to a blanket!

Amazon reviews are still at 3/5..

@Bliss...As for a beginners server..I think thats a great idea....We will not see if it works for the new players until we try it...so lets try it......Important that we don't advertise it as a 'Beginners server' but just a server with different settings....?...

How would it work with the same maps we have at the moment?...simply with icons and external views and maybe wonder woman view?

439th_Wtornado
May-21-2014, 09:10
While I do agree that a server with certain options on/off could increase numbers, I wish people would give the 100% realism a shot or a second shot. Honestly, before CloD, I flew entirely in outside views with icons and never dreamed nor wanted anything different. Being forced to try it here changed my perspective.

Now, I will never go back. The reason for this was I came in willing to give it a shot but more importantly I asked for help and the people here stepped up. IMO, within 30 minutes everyone can be up flying managing systems and dogfighting, getting killed and getting kills.

The difficultly is what makes it rewarding. Its always the path or the journey thats most rewarding, not the final outcome. ATAGs flight school is something pretty cool. If people are more relaxed and don't want that, just ask for a 10 minute lesson and I know I am more than willing as are a lot of people here. Thats how I operate, I learned what I needed to get the Blenny off the ground and dropping bombs (the important stuff) in a 10 min lesson in mission and from there just learned from doing.

It is funny how this same mentality dominated many HL IL-2 servers.The pilots will try it and like it the reality
was that the FR servers were always empty if you truly played as much as I did you know what I mean with
with 60% not of the servers and this is important what I am saying but of the ''POPULATION'' playing in open cockpit
and lower setting and another 30% playing moderate and 10% full real.And remember I said by population and
not by server population.

And you can close this thread right now turn on the Hyper lobby and look at the servers and the ''POPULATION'' in them and
I don't care from what time zone you are from or what time it is just go check and count and tell me what people ARE still playing
even today right now as you read this thread.:thumbsup:

439th_Wtornado
May-21-2014, 09:27
This was exactly to the letter what I experienced...We (Fire Squadron) still run an IL2 server in Hyperlobby (Skies Of Valor)...We use to run 2 servers (Skies Of Fire) and during the IL2 hayday we prided ourselves on the fact that for many years our servers where 2 of the most populated in Hyperlobby...Neither server was full real...the only difference being that one had the cockpit on and the other was wonder woman view...



The training help in ATAG is second to none..This community is so enthusiastic about introducing new players...Its fantastic

For my money it is still getting the word out that is the issue....Videos and reviews have worked and will continue to do so because they don't get withdrawn so remain in the public domain....All the effort we do does stick....Unfortunately this is also the problem because the bad reviews are still out there from when CLOD was released that we can do little about....in short the negative vibe stuck like sh*t to a blanket!

Amazon reviews are still at 3/5..

@Bliss...As for a beginners server..I think thats a great idea....We will not see if it works for the new players until we try it...so lets try it......Important that we don't advertise it as a 'Beginners server' but just a server with different settings....?...

How would it work with the same maps we have at the moment?...simply with icons and external views and maybe wonder woman view?

If all the low settings were advertized as ''beginner'' settings that would of made up over half the pilots population on the Hyperlobby.

Looks like many in your community of pilots want the game FR and by which I don't understand how bringing other lower setting servers in would
affect their server unless many of their pilots in their servers would defect to lower setting servers.

Ya your community has decisions to make and lets say it is NOT because the old IL-2 players have old hardware everyone I know upgraded
their machines.It is not because they don't all want to fly because they are still in the hyperlobby still flying more than me that is for sure.

Here is the most important part of what I am about to say.These same guys pledge 10$,20$,50$ a month in the HL so they can STILL play
their coops at their beloved setting.Check who pilots pledge the most it is the coop pilots oddly enough.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Talisman
May-23-2014, 10:45
Provide the classic Battle of Britain experience on at least one map in the rotation on ATAG. Just one map for some BoB action, which would need some LW AI bombers. Surely the classic BoB is what any newcomer would expect. I think there are such maps in the back catalogue.

439th_Wtornado
May-23-2014, 14:23
Provide the classic Battle of Britain experience on at least one map in the rotation on ATAG. Just one map for some BoB action, which would need some LW AI bombers. Surely the classic BoB is what any newcomer would expect. I think there are such maps in the back catalogue.

That would be nice.

Just make sure there are a lot of Hurri's and Spit's. :salute:

ATAG_Dave
May-23-2014, 21:08
Another idea would be to set up the second ATAG server (which appears largely unused) like a "Normal" server in BoS with CEM turned off and external views, map and navigation icons and autopilot turned on and some AI opponents such as bomber streams with escorts. This could serve as a beginners server which would attract many more players. CloD doesn't have to be difficult and yet in "Normal" mode would still be much more immersive and fun than WarThunder by far. Some players on the beginners server would migrate up to the full switch ATAG server and some would not. This would feed your full switch server with new players and create more players overall which would mean more exposure for CloD. I think it would be a "win-win" for both the beginners server and the full switch server as those players who don't move up to the full switch server would still serve as opponents for new players trying out the begginers server, some of whom would eventually move up to full switch.

I've talked some friends into stopping by the ATAG server and to be honest they thought it was too difficult. I think the steep learning curve up front could be mitigated with a beginners server that wouldn't frustrate as many new players.

Respectfully submitted :salute:

+1

I think this is potentially a really really really good idea (see qualifications below). I ended up here in CLoD after starting out in War Thunder - I played casually in their arcade mode, then the next one up then finally their 'simulator battles' before being introduced to CLoD. When I began in WT i had none of the 'kit' i have now - I played it on Mrs Dave's laptop at the kitchen table. I'm not sure how it would have gone if i had gone from zero to full realism in one go - leaving aside the fact that I wouldn't have had any of the kit and caboodle needed to do so. Its all too easy to forget what a challenging game it is we play.

So if its possible to enable a similar 'stepping stone' type environment here I think it would make the game more accessible to those players who (like me 12 months ago) dont yet realise they love flight sims... - as Bucksnort says not everyone will go onto the full realism mode - but many will.

Qualifications
1. A new stepping stone mode would still need to be publicised to attract new players.....
2. It would need to be supported by this community in a very different way than exists in (say) WT where there is much 'snobbery / trash talking' about the differing modes

Dave

AKA_Recon
May-23-2014, 22:37
I agree the game is complex, but if all we want is 'people' - ie. numbers - so that we get more people to play - then sure, why not just go create some arcade game.

Is that what it's about ... 'numbers' ?

I fly CloD because of it's realism. I enjoyed ROF for awhile, then one day I went back - and everyone was in 'Flying Circus' server. That day, ROF died for me - I haven't flown in over a year since.

If you want to make it easier, try taking out some of the extremes. ie. Do we really need 7 knots of wind ?


---

I don't miss hyperlobby at all. That said, I wonder if there is a way to get Hyperlobby to see the CloD servers ? I didn't know people still use it - but if they do, then it would be quite the attraction... those guys flying IL2 1946 would see the server numbers.

AKA has a large group of pilots that haven't switched yet... I think it's just a more taxing system requirement for many of them. And then many of them enjoy flying all the aircraft in 1946. For me, CloD has spoiled me and it's hard for me to go back. I have a good machine and invested in a video card.

In summary, I don't want to see a dumbed down ATAG server. I have other ideas of it, but not that. If you want to make it 'easier' - take out the wind extremes for instance.

Most the time new guys come, they need to get on ATAG TS and get some help. And people need to help them.

AKA_Recon
May-23-2014, 22:37
I meant to add - more community 'how to' videos on the wiki would be good.

Continu0
May-24-2014, 03:23
I meant to add - more community 'how to' videos on the wiki would be good.

Recon, would it be an idea to provide a training-campaign for each aircraft with TF 5.0. Maybe even in different languages?

439th_Wtornado
May-24-2014, 08:40
I agree the game is complex, but if all we want is 'people' - ie. numbers - so that we get more people to play - then sure, why not just go create some arcade game.

Is that what it's about ... 'numbers' ?

I fly CloD because of it's realism. I enjoyed ROF for awhile, then one day I went back - and everyone was in 'Flying Circus' server. That day, ROF died for me - I haven't flown in over a year since.

If you want to make it easier, try taking out some of the extremes. ie. Do we really need 7 knots of wind ?


---

I don't miss hyperlobby at all. That said, I wonder if there is a way to get Hyperlobby to see the CloD servers ? I didn't know people still use it - but if they do, then it would be quite the attraction... those guys flying IL2 1946 would see the server numbers.

AKA has a large group of pilots that haven't switched yet... I think it's just a more taxing system requirement for many of them. And then many of them enjoy flying all the aircraft in 1946. For me, CloD has spoiled me and it's hard for me to go back. I have a good machine and invested in a video card.

In summary, I don't want to see a dumbed down ATAG server. I have other ideas of it, but not that. If you want to make it 'easier' - take out the wind extremes for instance.

Most the time new guys come, they need to get on ATAG TS and get some help. And people need to help them.


Then it is settled then we will continue to see 20,30,40 player servers at the days players peak and 5 to 6 pilots in all the rest.;;)

439th_Wtornado
May-24-2014, 08:47
I guess I just wish that guys that know how to use the FMB could make more
ATAG campaigns AXIS,and ALLIED.

It beats trying to find and chase down 3 planes in the server you are in.

AKA_Recon
May-24-2014, 09:11
Then it is settled then we will continue to see 20,30,40 player servers at the days players peak and 5 to 6 pilots in all the rest.;;)

What's your timezone ?

So, you really think that if you had icons and externals and no realistic FM that you'd magically get 20, 30, 40 in your timezone ?

There are other servers listed and several with map icons and many AI planes flying around. So I don't know how 'ATAG' having one is going to be any different than those. I doubt your going to see this big influx of new pilots by lowering the difficulty. There are other servers in the server list that have different setting, so if that was the problem, you'd see '20,30,40 players' during your timezone flying on those servers...

AKA_Recon
May-24-2014, 09:20
Recon, would it be an idea to provide a training-campaign for each aircraft with TF 5.0. Maybe even in different languages?

100% - Missions designed to be walkthroughs would be great. (doesn't ROF have this ?)

Side note:

I know I searched around for video tutorials on how to level bomb in a He111. Having those videos is instrumental. I ran across some that really helped, although I wasn't sure if it was TF patched or older CloD

Now, if TF could figure out how to fix the camera's someday - I know Requiem has interest in doing videos for CloD.

He has done this work here for example:
https://www.youtube.com/user/RequiemBoS

These videos to me are great and especially good for new pilots learning how to fly CloD.

AKA_Recon
May-24-2014, 09:27
I guess I just wish that guys that know how to use the FMB could make more
ATAG campaigns AXIS,and ALLIED.

It beats trying to find and chase down 3 planes in the server you are in.

I think it's a two edged sword here - if you make a mission very specific, but then have 100 pilots on the server, it's a complete furball. Then if you have a mission with very spread out mission objectives, and have 20 people on the server, it's too spread out.

Makes me wonder if there could be some interesting design concepts - as mission designers can create triggers to load missions, I think it would be cool to keep a mission very focused, but have triggers based on the number of pilots on the server - as more people join, triggers load more objectives :)

Continu0
May-24-2014, 10:07
recon, i might actually find the time to do such missions during summer. I'll come back to you, ok?

dburne
May-24-2014, 10:53
I think one of the things that would definitely help newcomers to IL2 Cliffs of Dover, and retaining them, would be getting them first and foremost over here to the ATAG forum, where they can find all the information they need to firstly get up to speed easily with the mods, and learn some of the nuances of the sim.
Now what follows is just my opinion at still being somewhat relatively new to TF modded Cliffs and the ATAG forums.

There currently is quite a wealth of information here to help newcomers out. Lewis' New Beginners thread is awesome, I found it very beneficial when I first learned of ATAG and TF, getting my sim modded up to the current mod, and getting the way overwhelming controller options configured. The essential command list proved to be extremely beneficial to myself getting my Warthog set up without spending hours and hours trying to configure all of those controller options, many of which undoubtedly would never be used.

Then, I needed to learn about managing the windows in Cliffs, and finally found a tutorial here that explained it very simply, and I was finally able to manage to set the windows I wanted to display the information I needed.

Then of course there was CEM to learn, and after searching through and asking questions, found many of the answers here on this great forum to help me.

Then, ammo loadouts - wow, you mean I can set and adjust my ammo loadouts per belt? Way cool, so I went through a tutorial I found here on that, spent literally hours setting custom ammo loadouts for the planes I was currently flying, namely the variations of the Spit and Hurri, then finally to flying and fighting - not really seeing any difference, only to find out later from asking about it - well, that does not work in single player. I only fly single player...

Then the information to help me understand proper take off procedures, why my wingmen were not following me, etc etc.

I guess the point I am making, is I have learned a wealth of information here on these forums, from different sections of the forums, to help me become somewhat proficient and know what I am doing with Cliffs, as well as to know some of the limitations and nuances... but, I spent quite a bit of time searching the forums, asking questions, getting pointed to the right section, etc... but I am a pretty patient fellow, but could certainly see where some others might not have as much patience and just give up.

You guys have a tremendous amount of valuable information at this site, regarding the Cliffs sim along with the TF mods. If it could somehow be consolidated into say one area, for newcomers much like the thread Lewis has, where all that information is available at one's fingertips - say with links to learning cem, links to learning windows management, links to known shortfalls, etc. , it might prove to help new folks just finding out about the great work TF has done and the great support ATAG is providing...

I am in no way criticizing what is here, because what is here is extremely valuable and beneficial, just that it takes a bit of searching to find all of the relevant info. Heck I have seen certain sticky threads I remember that I got back and try to find for a refresher, and at times have to search through each section until I find it.

I absolutely love this sim now, and what you guys have done for it, and look forward to many, many more hours/days/weeks/months and hopefully years ahead of great stuff from you fine folks " Keeping the Dream Alive"...

Imho, there is currently no better WWII combat flight sim, and don't see that changing anytime soon, and I hope many more find it to be the treasure that it is, the diamond in the rough, that I have.

Bucksnort
May-24-2014, 15:50
There are other servers listed and several with map icons and many AI planes flying around. So I don't know how 'ATAG' having one is going to be any different than those. I doubt your going to see this big influx of new pilots by lowering the difficulty. There are other servers in the server list that have different setting, so if that was the problem, you'd see '20,30,40 players' during your timezone flying on those servers...


A couple of weeks ago I toured all of the servers that were listed (about 9 of them) and one had externals with everything else full real. All other servers were full real. Is there already a CloD server out there set up like a BoS "Normal" server with some added AI also? I'm not a BoS fanboy, just using that as an example.

Thanks!

Bucksnort
May-24-2014, 16:09
Provide the classic Battle of Britain experience on at least one map in the rotation on ATAG. Just one map for some BoB action, which would need some LW AI bombers. Surely the classic BoB is what any newcomer would expect. I think there are such maps in the back catalogue.


This is a really good idea. I fly U.S. prime time evenings which is about 2-3am U.K. and it is very hard to find a fight on the ATAG server as it is set up right now. With no plane icons you can be close to the fight and still never find it. I've flown around for close to an hour and never fired my guns. I've probably logged 100 hours in SP since getting CloD about 3 months ago but maybe less than 10 hours on the ATAG server because I can't find a fight. I'm thinking a "Normal" server with AI would bring more casual players creating something more to do during U.S. prime time.

SG1_sandokito
May-24-2014, 16:19
Many pilots miss missions as in 1946. The first problem is that you need to know to program in c for things like blue win or lose function.
And many people that cast him to the back.
I design missions, but not c.
I started working on a mission, with one target for team, one to red and one to blue, when red or blue destroy its target, it randomly load another target.
In this way it could centralize the action at all times, and at the end of x hours, the team that destroyed more goals wins.

The advantage of this system is that each time the mission is launched, the objectives are randomly loaded with what ever the same target sequence will be repeated. And to create a map with a new target, you could be updating the total list of objectives.

you can create a big airpor destruction, or big train station.
in some mission you can put a lot of AA to force the pilot to use level bombing. Or a small target to use ju87, or blemmy at low level.
this is my dream :(:(:(:(

Sorry for my English

Bucksnort
May-24-2014, 16:27
Let me add that I fully understand that the ATAG servers are private servers set up to suit a certain play style. And I think TF has done a fantastic job in fixing CloD. I'm just trying to find the same fun online that I'm having in SP mode. Thanks for all you've done ATAG/TF!

1lokos
May-24-2014, 16:49
I dont think that Hyperlobby still synonymous of online success... more than half of his players numbers are empty servers (each server count 1 player):

http://i60.tinypic.com/2dumbv6.jpg

In il-2 Bo$ the Expert mode seems more popular than "casual" ones - the casual players are in war Thunder. :)

The fact is that the online "WWII CFS" community has been decreasing year after year ...

Sokol1

439th_Wtornado
May-24-2014, 22:39
What's your timezone ?

So, you really think that if you had icons and externals and no realistic FM that you'd magically get 20, 30, 40 in your timezone ?

There are other servers listed and several with map icons and many AI planes flying around. So I don't know how 'ATAG' having one is going to be any different than those. I doubt your going to see this big influx of new pilots by lowering the difficulty. There are other servers in the server list that have different setting, so if that was the problem, you'd see '20,30,40 players' during your timezone flying on those servers...

I couldn't tell you Recon I fly full real, or full switch,or maximum difficulty or whatever you want to call It.

I think 777 studios and ole Maddox might get it right and please all pilot types if they want the sales

darkside3/4
May-25-2014, 00:56
This is a really good idea. I fly U.S. prime time evenings which is about 2-3am U.K. and it is very hard to find a fight on the ATAG server as it is set up right now. With no plane icons you can be close to the fight and still never find it. I've flown around for close to an hour and never fired my guns. I've probably logged 100 hours in SP since getting CloD about 3 months ago but maybe less than 10 hours on the ATAG server because I can't find a fight. I'm thinking a "Normal" server with AI would bring more casual players creating something more to do during U.S. prime time.

In regards to online play you are doing it all wrong, download teamspeak and talk, if you don't have a mic, use the chat, people will get you to the fight. Think of it as a sandbox with several areas that both sides tend to frequent. Once you've communicated this people will get you to the fight hell or high water. If you try half the time you've invested in MP using Teamspeak and you have the same issues I'll eat my words.

darkside3/4
May-25-2014, 01:01
A couple of weeks ago I toured all of the servers that were listed (about 9 of them) and one had externals with everything else full real. All other servers were full real. Is there already a CloD server out there set up like a BoS "Normal" server with some added AI also? I'm not a BoS fanboy, just using that as an example.

Thanks!

I check everyday and most the time the servers are empty over US prime time, and if I check during EU prime time I get the whole rubberband thing going on. You can have all the options but if no one is interested they stay empty. It is nice to have the variety but when i see one even remotely populated it is usually the expert ones, and expressly the EU one. On top of that the majority don't use the official teamspeak making it a waste in futility to wing up.

If there is some great need for icons, create/rent a server and do it. Until then the money and numbers aren't talking much in having an easier server.

Bucksnort
May-25-2014, 04:21
If there is some great need for icons...

I fly in a squad with 23 members in Aces High (15 bomber guys and 8 fighter guys - some of us switch back and forth). I've flown in locked pit flight sims for probably 15 or 20 years and I have a pilots license. But my best dogfighting days are behind me. The oldest member of our squad is 81. His mind is still sharp, but not his eyes. He flew P-51K jabo fighters just after the Koren war and then moved up to B-29's flying out of Japan towards the Russian boarder each mission. We also have other retired military multi-engine prop pilots in the squad. When we put a bomber raid together they read scripts over vox that puts you back in their heyday as they talk about taking it easy on engine #2 as maintenance couldn't get to the rebuild they had planned, etc. (it goes on and on - I can't even think of the actual bomber stuff they chatter about to add realism to our missions). They add so much immersion to a mission it is incredible. But most of us are in our 50's and 60's and our eyes and reflexes aren't what they used to be so we enjoy plane icons and relaxed servers. We take our planes off and land them, and conduct very realistic "by the book" bombing runs, but we LOVE to go to external view and shoot the bull in transit while we watch our formations. And tweaking flight sim engine controls doesn't do it for us as we can't see the instrument panel that well anymore :laugh:

So I buy CloD after hearing it has been fixed by TF and turns out it has the best bomber experience of any flight sim I've ever seen. I'm not the squad CO so all I could do was suggest we try out CloD when we want to fly the BoB period. A couple of guys in the squad had copies from when CloD first came out and when I told them about the TF mods they upgraded and stopped by the ATAG server. But they deemed it to difficult for old eyes and said never mind to the rest of the squad.

There are others ways to go "full real." If you guys were to hear the radio chatter of these ex-military pilots running our multi-engine prop bomber missions and directing our escort guys you would know what I mean. When you run into escorts flying precisely where they will eat you up when you attack a formation of bombers that is a new kind of full real also. Some of our bomber guys are so good at gunnery they will ask you to bring enemy cons to them if you get in trouble in your fighter. I've pretty much struck out trying to get these guys interested in CloD, but you might think about the type of gameplay you are missing by not offering a broader range of server options. There is a whole lot more to full real than clickable cockpits.

I'll not bother this forum any more...I tried :salute:

darkside3/4
May-25-2014, 04:32
I fly in a squad with 23 members in Aces High (15 bomber guys and 8 fighter guys - some of us switch back and forth). I've flown in locked pit flight sims for probably 15 or 20 years and I have a pilots license. But my best dogfighting days are behind me. The oldest member of our squad is 81. His mind is still sharp, but not his eyes. He flew P-51K jabo fighters just after the Koren war and then moved up to B-29's flying out of Japan towards the Russian boarder each mission. We also have other retired military multi-engine prop pilots in the squad. When we put a bomber raid together they read scripts over vox that puts you back in their heyday as they talk about taking it easy on engine #2 as maintenance couldn't get to the rebuild they had planned, etc. (it goes on and on - I can't even think of the actual bomber stuff they chatter about to add realism to our missions). They add so much immersion to a mission it is incredible. But most of us are in our 50's and 60's and our eyes and reflexes aren't what they used to be so we enjoy plane icons and relaxed servers. We take our planes off and land them, and conduct very realistic "by the book" bombing runs, but we LOVE to go to external view and shoot the bull in transit while we watch our formations. And tweaking flight sim engine controls doesn't do it for us as we can't see the instrument panel that well anymore :laugh:

So I buy CloD after hearing it has been fixed by TF and turns out it has the best bomber experience of any flight sim I've ever seen. I'm not the squad CO so all I could do was suggest we try out CloD when we want to fly the BoB period. A couple of guys in the squad had copies from when CloD first came out and when I told them about the TF mods they upgraded and stopped by the ATAG server. But they deemed it to difficult for old eyes and said never mind to the rest of the squad.

There are others ways to go "full real." If you guys were to hear the radio chatter of these ex-military pilots running our multi-engine prop bomber missions and directing our escort guys you would know what I mean. When you run into escorts flying precisely where they will eat you up when you attack a formation of bombers that is a new kind of full real also. Some of our bomber guys are so good at gunnery they will ask you to bring enemy cons to them if you get in trouble in your fighter. I've pretty much struck out trying to get these guys interested in CloD, but you might think about the type of gameplay you are missing by not offering a broader range of server options. There is a whole lot more to full real than clickable cockpits.

I'll not bother this forum any more...I tried :salute:

The options are there in other servers, no one I know uses them frequently. The misnomer here is that ATAG is the only server. Look around in the server list or create your squads own. In regards to ATAG why give up on this forum so quickly when I gave you the key to everything on ATAG, teamspeak? ATAG is a sandbox, set to full real and they are very adament about keeping it that way in the interest of not forcing a playstyle.

Nork
May-25-2014, 06:19
Heres a simple suggestion:

i know there are lots of cracking COD vids on Youtube but you won’t find ANY of them if you search “flight sim” on youtube.

They are all named “Il-2 Cliffs of Dover” or something.

People looking for a flight sim simply won’t find us at the mo.

How bout some of you guys rename your videos “flight sim - Cliffs of Dover bla bla.”

There really are people out there searching for a flight sim on youtube who just don’t know we exist.

Also i like some of the above suggestions to make the noob experience a bit more user friendly.

Even tho i really just want more noobs to fly just so i can shoot em down he he.

Nork S!

ATAG_Dave
May-25-2014, 06:59
Heres a simple suggestion:

i know there are lots of cracking COD vids on Youtube but you won’t find ANY of them if you search “flight sim” on youtube.

They are all named “Il-2 Cliffs of Dover” or something.

People looking for a flight sim simply won’t find us at the mo.

How bout some of you guys rename your videos “flight sim - Cliffs of Dover bla bla.”

There really are people out there searching for a flight sim on youtube who just don’t know we exist.

Also i like some of the above suggestions to make the noob experience a bit more user friendly.

Even tho i really just want more noobs to fly just so i can shoot em down he he.

Nork S!

+1

ATAG_Lewis
May-25-2014, 16:07
Heres a simple suggestion:

i know there are lots of cracking COD vids on Youtube but you won’t find ANY of them if you search “flight sim” on youtube.

They are all named “Il-2 Cliffs of Dover” or something.

People looking for a flight sim simply won’t find us at the mo.

How bout some of you guys rename your videos “flight sim - Cliffs of Dover bla bla.”

There really are people out there searching for a flight sim on youtube who just don’t know we exist.

Also i like some of the above suggestions to make the noob experience a bit more user friendly.

Even tho i really just want more noobs to fly just so i can shoot em down he he.

Nork S!

This has been addressed...on page 11 earlier on in this thread..

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4913&page=11


Thanks for the post Klem......I need to read it a few times for it to sink in...I'll re-read later and give more feedback when I get time

==================================================

I just had a thought about Youtube videos....I haven't 'Tagged' any of my vids yet...and its been brought to my attention that 'Tagging' with tags that are loosely based around this sim such as 'Battle of Britain'..'Flight Simulator'....'Spitfire'...even 'World War II'...that this may have a positive effect on reaching out to people who search these topics..

I don't know anything about 'Tags' so any info on this would be good....Even better would be a list that we could copy and paste for anyone who has a CLOD video..altho I have just tried to copy and paste a few topics with no joy..I think the copy and paste facillity is not open on tags...I guess thats to stop folks flooding Youtube with tags...Hmmmm....Need more help and info on this subject...

I tried to figure out how the tags work in Youtube..I think that may be key here...

I also, from what I remember Youtube doesn't allow you to copy and paste this info in your tags list ....meaning that it would be a complete ballache to have to type in all your criteria every time you upload...

We haven't sussed out a workaround for this yet.....

ATAG_Lewis
May-25-2014, 16:27
.
I think this is really.....

**IMPORTANT**

The videos on youtube are a massive part of getting this sim out there to the flight community....We/I haven't sussed out the pasting of Tags into our videos which will get them viewed by a much wider community than exists at the moment....It is obviously something that other folks are trying to work out in other gaming communities....I tried this video below but ran into a brick wall....

If we suss this out and can create a whole list of 'Tags' in a notepad file or such that can easily be pasted into our Youtube videos I think it will make a big difference and is KEY to widening our viewer audience....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLXZw1tta8

Bucksnort
May-26-2014, 04:44
In regards to ATAG why give up on this forum so quickly when I gave you the key to everything on ATAG, teamspeak? ATAG is a sandbox, set to full real and they are very adament about keeping it that way in the interest of not forcing a playstyle.

Jarhead, I didn't mean that badly, I just meant I won't pester you folks about this anymore :wf:

CloD is still a fantastic single player game :thumbsup:

JG4_sKylon
May-26-2014, 06:42
If we suss this out and can create a whole list of 'Tags' in a notepad file or such that can easily be pasted into our Youtube videos I think it will make a big difference and is KEY to widening our viewer audience....



You guys are talking about pasting a list of relevant tags in the video descriptions of YT?
I tested it and it works very fine.

9788

ATAG_Snapper
May-26-2014, 08:01
You guys are talking about pasting a list of relevant tags in the video descriptions of YT?
I tested it and it works very fine.

9788

Lewis and Skylon, this is excellent info. I'll revisit my own YouTube Clod videos and update the tags. Any further thoughts on the best tags to use to gain more viewership?

(Oh, I know.....I'll just go to Soren Oersted's YouTube Channel and grab HIS tags! :devilish: J/K! :D )

JG4_sKylon
May-26-2014, 08:17
Lewis and Skylon, this is excellent info. I'll revisit my own YouTube Clod videos and update the tags. Any further thoughts on the best tags to use to gain more viewership?

(Oh, I know.....I'll just go to Soren Oersted's YouTube Channel and grab HIS tags! :devilish: J/K! :D )

Oh, can one check the tags of someone elses vids?
I had to go to the video editor in YT to see my tags. Or did i miss something again?
(it seems i´ve become one of the old guys i was wondering about who are overwhelmed by todays technical Gadgets :crazyeyes: )

Edit: why not working on a list together?

Here are my suggestions:
IL2,
IL2 Cliffs of Dover,
Cliffs of Dover,
Flight Sim,
Flight Simulation,
air combat,
dogfight,
battle of britain,
world war 2,
Team Fusion

+ relevant tags for the specific clip like
plane model
type of Action (bombing England, bomber intercept etc)
squad tag
etc.

ATAG_Snapper
May-26-2014, 08:32
Oh, can one check the tags of someone elses vids?
I had to go to the video editor in YT to see my tags. Or did i miss something again?
(it seems i´ve become one of the old guys i was wondering about who are overwhelmed by todays technical Gadgets :crazyeyes: )

Edit: why not working on a list together?

Here are my suggestions:
IL2,
IL2 Cliffs of Dover,
Cliffs of Dover,
Flight Sim,
Flight Simulation,
air combat,
dogfight,
battle of britain,
world war 2,
Team Fusion

Ah, I'm thinking of a stock video site I do business with (not flight sim-related) where you can copy/paste tags, not YouTube. My bad. :D

I've added some more tag suggestions for greater hits (hopefully):


IL2,
IL2 Cliffs of Dover,
Cliffs of Dover,
Flight Sim,
Flight Simulation,
air combat,
dogfight,
battle of britain,
world war 2,
Team Fusion,
Spitfire,
Messerschmidt,
109,
Hurricane,
Stuka,
Junkers,
Heinkel,
Supermarine,
Hawker,
Kent,

Doozy
May-26-2014, 17:18
I think Bliss and Snort are right on the money. The graphic awesomeness of Clod and the top notch quality of people
at ATAG forum/teamspeak are helping to keep the sim moving along. Whats missing is the varity of content people
got used to in Fighter Ace , Warbirds , Il 2 1946 etc.
Clod is fighting with one hand tied behind it's back. The T F folks are grossly overworked and under/non paid , I don't know
about licensing and legal stuff so I don't know who even owns Clod.
It's going to be really hard to get huge numbers of folks when you are so limited in terms of player content.
If you don't have a lot to do for single players and don't have a way for people with less than perfect vision
and slightly outdated computer systems to have fun , some new comers won't stay long. The online server works very well
and everybody loves to fly the battle of Britain but sometimes It would be nice to jump in a P 47 or FW 190 of the
later wars.
I think a second slightly relaxed server would be awesome !

Doozy

AKA_Recon
May-27-2014, 07:52
I'll retract my last statements, if ATAG wants to setup their hardly used 2nd server and relax the settings so those that can't see as well, etc.. can fly and enjoy CloD online, then it sounds good to me.

It is important to have different types of setups for different folks with different takes on enjoying the game. Just because I prefer 'full real' doesn't mean everyone else does.

When I'm 80 and can't see (I can't see and I'm 44 now so...) then I can understand the desire for it.

That all said, it is possible with the tools Bliss/ATAG has provided to create a server. So the community itself has the responsibility to create what it wants - so the tools to 'build it' have been provided, so 'if you build it they will come' is in play.

But that said, if ATAG wants a server with icons, that is all up to ATAG!

439th_Wtornado
May-27-2014, 10:19
Almost fell off my chair here after reading Recon's post.:snoopy:

People start off in easier settings for the learning curve but most finish

full real.Look how how many went from Warthunder to here?

Is there anything more arcade than Warthunder?


9794

Bait
Jun-01-2014, 09:27
I know I am quite new here, but if I can take a moment of your time to tell you what brought me and what has stood out in my first weekend on the ATAG server.

First some background. I was really into War Thunder until I had a video card problem. I was really into the forums, and am a member of a Joystick only War Thunder squadron. I started WT with a mouse, got a stick, and enjoyed it. Since I started, there have been 3 major updates to WT, and in each I saw more issues, both from a game perspective and from the perspective of a Joystick user. I got bored with Arcade, and moved with most of our squadron to Realistic Battles. Realistic is NOT Flight Sim quality. Target Markers, not realistic FM's. I was bored again. Started to look at the WT Simulator battles, but all I heard was issues. Never even tried it. I watched as many videos on Youtube as I could. But then my video card issues knocked me out of playing.

I started looking on Steam and found IL2 1946 and go it. Then I saw CLoD and started to search for more info. I was still unable to play either 1946 or CLoD due to my video card, so learning more about it was all I had till my new card arrived. I did not find a lot of videos on Youtube but I did find the ATAG server. I joined and started to read. Found it very useful. I bought CLoD and installed it, patched it, and made sure it would start.

Last Wednesday my new card arrived. I didn't even bother with IL2 1946. I fired up CLoD and set everything up. Tweaked, and played the Training missions. I jumped into TeamSpeak and the Multiplayer server. Have not looked back. I love it.

A few observations.

First, the Community here. I want to say that THIS for me sealed the deal. I was so tired of the Bitchin' and Ranting on the WT communities that I have stopped participating. The Community is your strongest asset. The helpfulness, friendliness, the Knowledge it contains, and the way you accept new players that have NO CLUE what they are doing. SELL THIS! BOTTLE IT AND SELL IT!

Second, Videos. If you look for War Thunder videos, you will have MONTHS and MONTHS of video to look at. CLoD, not so much. Barely makes a dent. IL2 BOS videos are easier to find. This is the way to sell the game to others. And that includes Twitch Streaming. Going live and putting it out there is a massive way to get it noticed.

I know it seems hard to do, but if you have an NVidea card, and the latest software, shadow play makes it easy. Twitch username and password, and Go. That's it. I am planning to do this myself, but at this point, I have no ability to even get involved in a battle, and would make the Videos boring. I know there are some spectacular players out there, and even great mediocre players that would do better at this point. I would love to help anyone that has an interest in doing this. Just ask.

3rd Team Speak.
The community has another great thing going here. Even as a New player, TS with the community is frikin awesome! The amount of fun I have had just listening as I practice nosediving on landings and cartwheeling on takeoffs is worth it.

Last, Learning curve.
Its hard to just jump in and learn this on full realism that is set up on the servers, and the curve is steep. Is it feasible to have a server with a few settings tuned down to help new pilots hone their skills. By all means, keep the realism, Please. But what I am suggesting is a server with being able to see players on the map and see where a person is or where the enemies and friendlies are, but all other settings being the same would make a HUGE difference. Not sure how doable that is.

When I suggest this, I know there might be a backlash, but currently in the game, unless you do the campaigns, it's an all or nothing affair. Every game that is out there now is online, and a vast amount of players don't even do the single player campaigns anymore. Multiplayer is where all the attention is.

Going online and having TS, the Community and the ability to have a few things dialed back would make it less frustrating for beginners. Even coming from a Non Flight Sim Background (Even though I have played plenty of flying games in the past) its enough to make a person lose interest. A little hand holding at the beginning I am sure would make the community stronger, and would make people who try it even more likely to stay.

Oh, and about the patching. I am an IT Manager/Sys Admin. I had no problems doing this. But there has to be a better way to do the patches.

Yesterday, a young lad came on Teamspeak and asked for some help. That was about 1-2pm local time. I jumped into the Bar & Grill Channel with him and gave him a hand.

Lets just say, things were NOT smooth. He needed to do Patch 4.0 and 4.3. I had to end up doing a Team Viewer Remote control to get him sorted out. Last patch was finished applying after fixing all the issues, and him having to download the patches for 4.0 again (which took over 2.5 hours for him) at 11:30 pm my time. And he is happy, and I told him that he needed to Register, and get involved. He was quite happy to do so. I also had him bookmark the Beginners Guide (Thanks Lewis for that post BTW). I expect to see him online here. He already has a couple of friends that play.



I don't know of how to promote TF and ATAG more than what has already been suggested, but I know that the Videos are a Must Have thing for making the community grow. But you have all the right ingredients. And I will be promoting the heck out of this as soon as possible, everywhere I can. In fact, this week I will be writing this up as reviews on Steam, our Squadron Forum, Amazon and everywhere else I can think of. And I will resurrect my Twitch account (Or start a new one) and broadcast my epic fails!

As it stands, if I can be of help in ANY way to this community, please do not hesitate to ask.

Ohms
Jun-01-2014, 10:19
Great write up BAIT. I believe that Bliss has thought about making server 2 'not full realism' for newer players or those who do not like full real. The latest info from Team Fusion is they are looking at a method to making patching easier for all. Even i have to look at the videos on how to patch and I've been around along time playing this game. :thumbsup:

Ohms

P.S there are some videos on you tube but I know a few have Vimeo accounts with videos found there.

implicit A
Jun-02-2014, 17:05
I 've done Lewis suggession on Amazon.fr
should do the same on fnac.fr but i have lost my account on it.
i'll try on steam / ubi

:salute:

ATAG_Lewis
Jun-02-2014, 19:34
@ BAIT - Thanks for the write up bro..Your info as a new comer is precious...~S~


You guys are talking about pasting a list of relevant tags in the video descriptions of YT?
I tested it and it works very fine.

9788

Brilliant work...I couldn't get it right but this could be a break through me thinks...and the list is top notch..We can add to that now and make it cover everything we can think of..


Ah, I'm thinking of a stock video site I do business with (not flight sim-related) where you can copy/paste tags, not YouTube. My bad. :D

I've added some more tag suggestions for greater hits (hopefully):


IL2,
IL2 Cliffs of Dover,
Cliffs of Dover,
Flight Sim,
Flight Simulation,
air combat,
dogfight,
battle of britain,
world war 2,
Team Fusion,
Spitfire,
Messerschmidt,
109,
Hurricane,
Stuka,
Junkers,
Heinkel,
Supermarine,
Hawker,
Kent,

Snap...We can add to this list and make it as big as we can (within reason)....and that should create a lot more attention...Top bananas!

Even vague links like 'Fw190' and 'P51' will get attention...The skies the limit...YAHOOO!....I very excite!!

ATAG_Lewis
Jun-02-2014, 19:43
Hmmmm.....As far as I can see I can copy and paste tags from one video to the next but not from here...so making a master tag list here would have to be copied individually and then pasted into the vid.....right?

or am I missing something?

I just added 48......and then got a red message...'Your Tags are Too Long'...so I think 48 is the max...

EDIT....On closer inspection it is not on tag numbers but on how many lines they take up
....which is 12

This is what I did....:

World of Planes,World of WarPlanes,IL2,IL2 Cliffs of Dover,Cliffs of Dover,Flight Sim,Flight Simulation,air combat,dogfight,battle of britain,world war 2,Team Fusion,Spitfire,Messerschmidt,109,Hurricane,Stuka, Junkers,Heinkel,Supermarine,Hawker,FW190,Thunderbo lt,Lancaster,P51,PC Game,1946,Pacific Fighters,Warbirds,Churchill,Hitler,Goring,Luftwaff e,RAF,USAF,Tempest,Typhoon,Mosquito,Adolf Galland,Wellington,Bombers,Fighter,Merlin,Douglas Bader,Reginald Mitchell,Airfix

All my vids are now tagged...with the above....Oh Boy,..there's 2 hours I'll never get back..!

Now wait and see if it effects the viewing numbers....

Bait
Jun-03-2014, 06:43
Hmmmm.....As far as I can see I can copy and paste tags from one video to the next but not from here...so making a master tag list here would have to be copied individually and then pasted into the vid.....right?

All my vids are now tagged...with the above....Oh Boy,..there's 2 hours I'll never get back..!

Now wait and see if it effects the viewing numbers....

I just setup my YouTube channel and if you look at the dashboard, you can set the default tags and description for all your videos. Something to look at if your channel is dedicated like mine will be.

ATAG_Lewis
Jun-03-2014, 07:20
Thanks BAIT..I'll look into that...I didn't know.....That should save a load of time..

Gromit
Jun-03-2014, 16:54
What the game needs is more flyable aircraft, and I don't mean yet more 109's Spits and Hurri's, I had a few friends try the game out, they basically lost interest as it was same old same old!

When you consider the RAF have only 3 flyable warbirds, then you can understand some peoples indifference!

I would consider a flyable wellington or Beaufighter a far greater requirement than Spit V or 109 F, that's just the same fight at a higher performance, or put simply a reset out of touch for the other models!

The game also needs to appeal to the stat watchers who fly bombers, at present you score absolutely nothing for sinking ships or destroying ground targets, stats are important to some folk even if some of us are disinterested in them!

AKA_Recon
Jun-03-2014, 21:00
I know I am quite new here, but if I can take a moment of your time to tell you what brought me and what has stood out in my first weekend on the ATAG server.

First some background. I was really into War Thunder until I had a video card problem. I was really into the forums, and am a member of a Joystick only War Thunder squadron. I started WT with a mouse, got a stick, and enjoyed it. Since I started, there have been 3 major updates to WT, and in each I saw more issues, both from a game perspective and from the perspective of a Joystick user. I got bored with Arcade, and moved with most of our squadron to Realistic Battles. Realistic is NOT Flight Sim quality. Target Markers, not realistic FM's. I was bored again. Started to look at the WT Simulator battles, but all I heard was issues. Never even tried it. I watched as many videos on Youtube as I could. But then my video card issues knocked me out of playing.

I started looking on Steam and found IL2 1946 and go it. Then I saw CLoD and started to search for more info. I was still unable to play either 1946 or CLoD due to my video card, so learning more about it was all I had till my new card arrived. I did not find a lot of videos on Youtube but I did find the ATAG server. I joined and started to read. Found it very useful. I bought CLoD and installed it, patched it, and made sure it would start.

Last Wednesday my new card arrived. I didn't even bother with IL2 1946. I fired up CLoD and set everything up. Tweaked, and played the Training missions. I jumped into TeamSpeak and the Multiplayer server. Have not looked back. I love it.

A few observations.

First, the Community here. I want to say that THIS for me sealed the deal. I was so tired of the Bitchin' and Ranting on the WT communities that I have stopped participating. The Community is your strongest asset. The helpfulness, friendliness, the Knowledge it contains, and the way you accept new players that have NO CLUE what they are doing. SELL THIS! BOTTLE IT AND SELL IT!

Second, Videos. If you look for War Thunder videos, you will have MONTHS and MONTHS of video to look at. CLoD, not so much. Barely makes a dent. IL2 BOS videos are easier to find. This is the way to sell the game to others. And that includes Twitch Streaming. Going live and putting it out there is a massive way to get it noticed.

I know it seems hard to do, but if you have an NVidea card, and the latest software, shadow play makes it easy. Twitch username and password, and Go. That's it. I am planning to do this myself, but at this point, I have no ability to even get involved in a battle, and would make the Videos boring. I know there are some spectacular players out there, and even great mediocre players that would do better at this point. I would love to help anyone that has an interest in doing this. Just ask.

3rd Team Speak.
The community has another great thing going here. Even as a New player, TS with the community is frikin awesome! The amount of fun I have had just listening as I practice nosediving on landings and cartwheeling on takeoffs is worth it.

Last, Learning curve.
Its hard to just jump in and learn this on full realism that is set up on the servers, and the curve is steep. Is it feasible to have a server with a few settings tuned down to help new pilots hone their skills. By all means, keep the realism, Please. But what I am suggesting is a server with being able to see players on the map and see where a person is or where the enemies and friendlies are, but all other settings being the same would make a HUGE difference. Not sure how doable that is.

When I suggest this, I know there might be a backlash, but currently in the game, unless you do the campaigns, it's an all or nothing affair. Every game that is out there now is online, and a vast amount of players don't even do the single player campaigns anymore. Multiplayer is where all the attention is.

Going online and having TS, the Community and the ability to have a few things dialed back would make it less frustrating for beginners. Even coming from a Non Flight Sim Background (Even though I have played plenty of flying games in the past) its enough to make a person lose interest. A little hand holding at the beginning I am sure would make the community stronger, and would make people who try it even more likely to stay.

Oh, and about the patching. I am an IT Manager/Sys Admin. I had no problems doing this. But there has to be a better way to do the patches.

Yesterday, a young lad came on Teamspeak and asked for some help. That was about 1-2pm local time. I jumped into the Bar & Grill Channel with him and gave him a hand.

Lets just say, things were NOT smooth. He needed to do Patch 4.0 and 4.3. I had to end up doing a Team Viewer Remote control to get him sorted out. Last patch was finished applying after fixing all the issues, and him having to download the patches for 4.0 again (which took over 2.5 hours for him) at 11:30 pm my time. And he is happy, and I told him that he needed to Register, and get involved. He was quite happy to do so. I also had him bookmark the Beginners Guide (Thanks Lewis for that post BTW). I expect to see him online here. He already has a couple of friends that play.



I don't know of how to promote TF and ATAG more than what has already been suggested, but I know that the Videos are a Must Have thing for making the community grow. But you have all the right ingredients. And I will be promoting the heck out of this as soon as possible, everywhere I can. In fact, this week I will be writing this up as reviews on Steam, our Squadron Forum, Amazon and everywhere else I can think of. And I will resurrect my Twitch account (Or start a new one) and broadcast my epic fails!

As it stands, if I can be of help in ANY way to this community, please do not hesitate to ask.

wow - fantastic.

One thing everyone tends to forget once they get things finally up and running is the learning curve of just being able to get things setup correctly, joystick bindings, then you move to ammo settings (wish more people shared theirs for the new guys), etc...

I know having these icons would help, but I keep trying to promote new guys to come to TS and pair up with someone - be a wingman, or escort a bomber. Stick to them, eventually you learn the landmarks and where targets are. There are some servers with this in the list if you just want a chance to get more familiar with the sim - (Leadfarm ?).

Again, fantastic writeup, much here to improve upon - thanks - and glad your with us!

implicit A
Jun-03-2014, 21:59
Hi Gromit
maybe an onother thread for new planes develepment priority.
but you're right in fact for the need of choice.

I think spit V is famous and popular aircraft
how many pilot really use Fiat 50 for exemple ... I think not many.

Bait
Jun-04-2014, 03:04
wow - fantastic.

One thing everyone tends to forget once they get things finally up and running is the learning curve of just being able to get things setup correctly, joystick bindings, then you move to ammo settings (wish more people shared theirs for the new guys), etc...

I know having these icons would help, but I keep trying to promote new guys to come to TS and pair up with someone - be a wingman, or escort a bomber. Stick to them, eventually you learn the landmarks and where targets are. There are some servers with this in the list if you just want a chance to get more familiar with the sim - (Leadfarm ?).

Again, fantastic writeup, much here to improve upon - thanks - and glad your with us!

Thanks Recon.

I don't think full icons are needed for new pilots. Just a way for someone to see where they are when start. I have had the opportunity to fly with a couple of guys and it was fantastic. My game playing is a little limited at the moment, so I hope that I can do this a little more in the near future.

Its not the type of game you can jump in for 20 minutes in Multiplayer. So I am doing some campaign at the moment to hone skills and take a few videos.

I love the idea of the Flight Training. I think that this should be a scheduled thing. I know its a volunteer thing, but maybe when one of the instructors are free to do this, then can post where and when, then people who want to join know that they need to spawn at this base at this time and be in this TS channel. Imagine a full flight of 10 people learning all at once from each other as well as the instructor. I could also see a dogfight school where a couple of the good pilots go head to head with a group of "greenhorns" and be on TS with them and tell them what they are doing right or wrong. That would be amazing.

Gromit
Jun-04-2014, 06:00
Hi Gromit
maybe an onother thread for new planes develepment priority.
but you're right in fact for the need of choice.

I think spit V is famous and popular aircraft
how many pilot really use Fiat 50 for exemple ... I think not many.

The Spit V and 109F will just move the performance envelope away from the other flight models, and just reset the Spit vrs 109 fight back to square one , no different to what it is now other than everyone will fly them only, your not going to bother trying to fight a 109F in a Hurricane mk1 for instance, so to me that's a waste of energy when we need more flyables , not just more of the same!

The G50 gets used a lot more than you think, almost as much as the Hurricane in some maps but it's down to map makers to balance plane sets, but it's the lack of diversity for the missions that puts a lot of people off!

I honestly believe the scoring system needs to be changed to reflect ground targets destroyed, the same as air to air kills work, 1 point or percentage point per ship or target for instance, that will encourage more bomber pilots to play, because at present you get absolutely nothing so people who watch their stats won't fly bombers as it adds nothing!
In IL2 you scored points for destroying ground targets and as a result we had a loads of strike pilots and guys strafing mission targets, this alone should encourage an increase in numbers!