The sun does not always set in the west!

[Maltloaf1]

To all the navigators out there,

I came across what I believe is an error which other people may not be bothered about but actually grates a bit. As I was turning for home from Pas de Calais the other evening at 1800 game time I put the sun over my port wing and waited for the friendly coast to appear. I then got a feeling I have had several times before, that I was not going in the right direct. So I checked the compass and sure enough I was 90 degrees out from my expected course. So I then came onto the desired course of NW and low and behold the sun is right in my eyes. OK so maybe the compass is out. Carry on and nav by landmarks. Find Manston and make a direct approach. Manston runway is on about WNW heading, say 290 degrees (compass is OK) and the sun is still right in my eyes, bang on the nose.

Well I have spent most of my life in the northern hemisphere and am a reasonably well trained navigator by land and sea and I know full well that at any time of year the suns azimuth should never ever have a northerly component, ever. I could find out what its azimuth should be for 1800 in Sept 1940 by I dont really need to, it would be about WSW. Any boy scout with an analogue watch could tell you that.

I have tried a few experiments on this and the game seems to put the sun to my north morning and evening. Anybody know why this is? In a game that tries to put the right number of rivets on every cowling I am wondering why something as big and predictable as the sun is markedly in the wrong bit of the sky.

Why does it matter, well it may not, but to someone who tends to retain a sense of direction by the approximate direction of the sun it is a little irritating.

Thoughts????

Maltloaf

[Kling]

To all the navigators out there,

I came across what I believe is an error which other people may not be bothered about but actually grates a bit. As I was turning for home from Pas de Calais the other evening at 1800 game time I put the sun over my port wing and waited for the friendly coast to appear. I then got a feeling I have had several times before, that I was not going in the right direct. So I checked the compass and sure enough I was 90 degrees out from my expected course. So I then came onto the desired course of NW and low and behold the sun is right in my eyes. OK so maybe the compass is out. Carry on and nav by landmarks. Find Manston and make a direct approach. Manston runway is on about WNW heading, say 290 degrees (compass is OK) and the sun is still right in my eyes, bang on the nose.

Well I have spent most of my life in the northern hemisphere and am a reasonably well trained navigator by land and sea and I know full well that at any time of year the suns azimuth should never ever have a northerly component, ever. I could find out what its azimuth should be for 1800 in Sept 1940 by I dont really need to, it would be about WSW. Any boy scout with an analogue watch could tell you that.

I have tried a few experiments on this and the game seems to put the sun to my north morning and evening. Anybody know why this is? In a game that tries to put the right number of rivets on every cowling I am wondering why something as big and predictable as the sun is markedly in the wrong bit of the sky.

Why does it matter, well it may not, but to someone who tends to retain a sense of direction by the approximate direction of the sun it is a little irritating.

Thoughts????

Maltloaf

First of all... did you synchronize your directional gyro to the compass? Otherwise the gyro will read whatever heading and sometimes as much as 180 degrees wrong...
You must synchronize the gyro with the compass (behind the stick on the spits and hurris) before u take off. It will be too hard to do it while airborn.. ;)

[Maltloaf1]

Nothing to do with the gyros or the compass. The runway at mansion is on the map and runs at about 280 true. For the sun to be shining down the runway it would have to be north of west at 1800 with the sun fairly high still.

I have just checked the sunrise by setting the game clock to 0400 and flown towards it. It is definitely north of east, which it can't be. If you do this with map icons turned on you can see that you are flying well north of east and if you use the protractor tool and measure the planes heading on the map it is a staggering 30 degrees north of east! Which the mag compass confirms.

It's no big deal but it is definitely wrong.

Weird

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Nothing to do with the gyros or the compass. The runway at mansion is on the map and runs at about 280 true. For the sun to be shining down the runway it would have to be north of west at 1800 with the sun fairly high still.

I have just checked the sunrise by setting the game clock to 0400 and flown towards it. It is definitely north of east, which it can't be. If you do this with map icons turned on you can see that you are flying well north of east and if you use the protractor tool and measure the planes heading on the map it is a staggering 30 degrees north of east! Which the mag compass confirms.

It's no big deal but it is definitely wrong.

Weird

I haven't noticed the early morning sun, but you are right about it being too NW.

I live directly East of Coventry, England and when the sun sets, it sets over the City Centre, which is West.

[Dutch]

Ah, come on guys. The game is set in the summer of 1940, not at the spring or autumn equinox. In Summer, the sun rises in the northeast, and sets in the northwest. In midwinter, it rises in the southeast and sets in the southwest. Simples. :thumbsup:

Of course if you live in Northern Norway, it doesn't rise or set at all in midsummer. :D

[ATAG_Colander]

We'll switch all missions to moonless night and problem solved ;)

[Kling]

Irrespective of where you are on the globe, the Sun will always rise exactly East and set exactly West on two days: March 21 and September 21 which are the two equinoxes. As to the second part, it is a little complicated:

Consider an arbitrary location on Earth (to make matters simple, consider a place in the northern hemisphere). Now, the celestial north pole (where the star Polaris resides) will be at an angle above the horizon and the angle is exactly equal to the latitude of the place. Imagine yourself facing Polaris (so that you are facing north exactly). Then East will be to your right and West will be to your left. Now, draw a circle which passes through East and West and whose plane is exactly perpendicular to the line joining you and Polaris. This circle marks the path of the Sun from dawn to dusk on the two equinoxes.

Now, draw a circle which is exactly parallel to the first circle, but which are separated from the first circle by 23.5 degrees at the zenith towards Polaris. This marks the path of the Sun during summer solstice and the place where this circle cuts the horizons will mark the place where the Sun will rise and set on the day of summer solstice. A similar circle which is separated from the first circle by 23.5 degrees at zenith towards south will mark the path of the Sun on winter solstice.

Thus, the Sun will rise north of true East and set north of true West during summer whereas during winter, the Sun will rise south of true East and set south of true West.

The exact location where the Sun will rise and set will vary widely depending on the place. Beyond the Arctic circle, there will be some times of the year where the Sun stays in the horizon for more than 24 hours.

Hope this helps
Regards
Kling

[ATAG_Slipstream]

The OPs whole point it that it is too far north, in the winter when it is S-SW it is more noticeable.

At the moment its simple setting too far to the north, you don't need a degree in math or science to tell you what your own eyes see every sunny day.

Its no showstopper anyway, just an interesting point.

[Kling]

Yes and it should be to the north... if its too far North though i cannot tell...

[Maltloaf1]

All.

I stand corrected! You live and learn. I have looked it up and done some sums and yes you are right. For interest only, I can now confirm that the game is set some where near mid summer's day (sunrise 0345 Az 48, sunset 2021 Az 310 for London). By Sept it would have been very close to E-W but sun rise and set at 0600 and 1800. Not that anybody probably wants to know but I thought it was interesting.

Thanks for putting me right.

So it is not set too far north just too early in the year!



Maltloaf

[Dutch]

I got interested enough in this to have a look in the FMB today.

Sunrise occurs at 4.00am and at 62 degrees magnetic, sunset occurs at 8.00pm at 312 degrees magnetic. Adding an hour for British Summertime is 5.00am and 9.00pm respectively. The nearest I can find to the times is for the 14th July here;

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=136&month=7&year=2013&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

If the difference between magnetic and true is that magnetic is 12 degrees west of true, that gives sunrise at 050 degrees, i.e. 5 degrees east of northeast, and sunset at 300 degrees, i.e. 15 degrees west of Northwest.

How does that match up with your circular calculations Kling old bean? :D

P.S. I did my experiments from Canterbury airfield, but the times were for London. Bit of a discrepancy there then. :D

[Kodoss]

If the difference between magnetic and true is that magnetic is 12 degrees west of true, that gives sunrise at 050 degrees, i.e. 5 degrees east of northeast, and sunset at 300 degrees, i.e. 15 degrees west of Northwest.

On 14th July 1940 the magnetic declination is 10.22° W.

Calculated through http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag-web/

Values 51° North 0° West (Between Eastbourne - London)

[Dutch]

On 14th July 1940 the magnetic declination is 10.22° W.

Calculated through http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag-web/

Values 51° North 0° West (Between Eastbourne - London)

Cool! Thanks Kodoss. I'll let everyone else do the rest of the maths then. :D

[Kling]

I got interested enough in this to have a look in the FMB today.

Sunrise occurs at 4.00am and at 62 degrees magnetic, sunset occurs at 8.00pm at 312 degrees magnetic. Adding an hour for British Summertime is 5.00am and 9.00pm respectively. The nearest I can find to the times is for the 14th July here;

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=136&month=7&year=2013&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

If the difference between magnetic and true is that magnetic is 12 degrees west of true, that gives sunrise at 050 degrees, i.e. 5 degrees east of northeast, and sunset at 300 degrees, i.e. 15 degrees west of Northwest.

How does that match up with your circular calculations Kling old bean? :D

P.S. I did my experiments from Canterbury airfield, but the times were for London. Bit of a discrepancy there then. :D

Oh God, i get dizzy.... :/

[Catseye]

Oh God, i get dizzy.... :/

Were they in double daylight saving time then or later in the war?

That would change the whole issue of relative sunset to time as well.

[Dutch]

Were they in double daylight saving time then or later in the war?

That would change the whole issue of relative sunset to time as well.

:)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Were they in double daylight saving time then or later in the war?

That would change the whole issue of relative sunset to time as well.

I knew George Bush was behind this! :grrr:


J/K :)

[Injerin]

on 14th july 1940 the magnetic declination is 10.22° w.

Calculated through http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag-web/

values 51° north 0° west (between eastbourne - london)

my brain is melting!!!!!!!!!! :)

[kopperdrake]

Just to make it easier for the visual people - I plugged the dates into my software and popped these two images out, one for sunrise and one for sunset, 14th July. I looked at the light and took the nearest time to the points of day I could, but it's usually pretty accurate :)

3511

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

15 August 1940, Sunrise, midday and sunset at DOVER, KENT:
http://www.suncalc.net/#/51.1264,1.3162,13/1940.08.15/13:08

The sun clearly rises, and sets well to the north of east and west respectively.


Same day, for Folkstone;

3512

sunrise: ~67 degrees Grid
sunset: ~292 degrees Grid