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View Full Version : can Team Fusion please talk a look at the wrong trimm of the 109



Little_D
Aug-02-2013, 07:21
Hi gents,

the trim of the 109, is totaly wrong, in real life the 109 where trimmed on the ground over the little slats for a speed of 400 Km/H. Ingame it is now trimmed for 300 KM/H. in the beginning of CoD it was rigth trimmed -> when you fly with cruise settings so 1.15 ATA and 2100 rpms up to alts of 4600m you easely reach your cruise speed of 400 KM/H and no trimming was needed ( ball was centert in level flight ) and no nosebouncing. i dont know wy they change it but after some patches it went down to 300 KM/H and the nose bouncing starts.

i will search my basement for the 109 book from the Messerschmitt AG where i read this. on the other hand from the view of logic, who will build a plane that reach easely 400Km/H up to 4600m at cruise settings and trimm it on the ground for 300 Km/H? so the pilot gets faster tired from the workout with the rudder. i know the 109 had a lott of workout for the pilot with the rudder, but not for cruise speed and cruise settings, for this it was trimmed.
even in 1946 it was right trimmed for 400 KM/H at cruise speed and settings.

so maby you from Team Fusion can take a look and change it again, so we get the right settings back. in the moment it is very hard to trimm the 109 for level flight because of the wrong trimm. and because of the false trimm you have this damn nosebouncing when you try to make smal correction for the leed.

regards

Little_D

ATAG_Snapper
Aug-02-2013, 09:28
Hope Team Fusion fixes it for you, Little_D.

I note in the Clod Bugtracker your request for this issue to be fixed received 20 "thumbs up".

http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/387



Bug #387


Bf 109: Wrong Trim
Added by Little_D about 1 year ago. Updated 10 months ago.


Status: Feedback Start date: 07/09/2012
Priority: Normal Due date:
Assignee: - % Done:
0%
Category: Aircraft performance and FM Spent time: -
Target version: 1.07.18301
Votes: 20 view voter
Quote
Description


Hi gents,


this is my first post here, so i hope i make everything right.


The 109`s are trimmed now for 300Km/H (BAll is centert at 300 Km/H). In RL/before patch it was trimmed for 400 Km/H. (Ball centert at 400 Km/H) This false trimm make the 109`s hard to trimm in level flight when you cruse with 400 Km/H at ATA 1.15 to hold your engin cool. In fight the 109`s bouncing around the nose when you have to set a new leed to shoot ( Stick a little bit to neutral and than back for leed) because of the false trimm.


regards


Little_D

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Aug-03-2013, 05:03
I am quite busy with other Flight Model fixes and additions for Release 2 but will try to squeeze a look at this in too.

Thanks for the note. :salute:

Little_D
Aug-03-2013, 05:46
I am quite busy with other Flight Model fixes and additions for Release 2 but will try to squeeze a look at this in too.

Thanks for the note. :salute:

Hi Buzzsaw,

no hurry, i wait so long that this will be fixed so no problem when it coms with 3th or 4th releas. im glad that someone will take a look at it. :)

regards

Little_D

Kling
Aug-03-2013, 11:26
I am quite busy with other Flight Model fixes and additions for Release 2 but will try to squeeze a look at this in too.

Thanks for the note. :salute:

Tell us ALL the details Buzzaw!! :P

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Aug-07-2013, 02:39
Done for release 2.

109's rudder presets are trimmed in level flight at 344 kph, as per historical data. (previously trimmed at 510kph)

Little_D
Aug-07-2013, 06:39
Done for release 2, ( previously trimmed at 510kph)

THX Buzzsaw, when i get it right, now its is trimmed for 510 Km/H? and you bring it to 344 Km/H with the 2. release?

i only ask, because when it is now trimmed for 510 Km/H, why ingame at 300 Km/H the ball is in the center at levelflight.

regards

Little_D

Catseye
Aug-07-2013, 21:10
Done for release 2.

109's rudder presets are trimmed in level flight at 344 kph, as per historical data. (previously trimmed at 510kph)

Excellent news!

Affe
Aug-16-2013, 16:40
Hop you fixe your crap, you are abble to fixe some Tiger Moth Cockpit problem and let the Bf-109 in bug for wile, thanks just great! :grr:

ATAG_Colander
Aug-16-2013, 16:47
Hop you fixe your crap, you are abble to fixe some Tiger Moth Cockpit problem and let the Bf-109 in bug for wile, thanks just great! :grr:

Hi Affe,

Welcome to the forums and congratulations for your great and constructive first post!.

ATAG_Colander.

Affe
Aug-16-2013, 17:08
Anyway sry for my language.. but it's awlays blue pliot fly with some crap problem, loss wing, boulet usless on radiator, spit turn like fly when you stall at 15° turn, Damn you need cold blood of a siberian bear...

:whacky:

ATAG_Snapper
Aug-16-2013, 19:23
Hi Affe, and welcome to the forum.

As Team Fusion has mentioned several times in this forum, many of the problems with the 109 will be addressed in the upcoming patch scheduled -- all going well -- for the end of this month or early the next. Although I can't speak for Team Fusion, my experience is that they always welcome feedback and suggestions if made respectfully and reasonably. Please remember that Team Fusion members are volunteers working for free in their own time for the benefit of all of us. That alone demands that any communication with Team Fusion on this forum must be done in a courteous, respectful, and reasonable manner.

We want to hear your thoughts and opinions on the upcoming patch when you've had a chance to try it after its release. Please bear the points above in mind when, hopefully, you do so.

Thanks,

Snapper

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Aug-17-2013, 18:34
Anyway sry for my language.. but it's awlays blue pliot fly with some crap problem, loss wing, boulet usless on radiator, spit turn like fly when you stall at 15° turn, Damn you need cold blood of a siberian bear...


To add to Snapper's comment.
It also helps if you provide some evidence of the problems you describe, with some comparisons to the historical record, so that the appropriate corrections can be made. This is the constructive approach that TF have adopted right from day 1.

Affe
Sep-25-2013, 03:04
Ok guys, i think i have find the problem with my trimm, it's the cable of my old x52 pro unplug, replug and recalibrate the joystick when i fly, pretty weird when happen. :joystick:

ATAG_Lolsav
Sep-25-2013, 10:27
Ok guys, i think i have find the problem with my trimm, it's the cable of my old x52 pro unplug, replug and recalibrate the joystick when i fly, pretty weird when happen. :joystick:

LOL! So.. All planes were flying funny, wasnt just the Tiger Moth? :)

Chivas
Sep-25-2013, 12:58
No wonder developers go crazy after a few years. :)

Skoshi_Tiger
Sep-25-2013, 23:06
Just out of interest, exactly how fast does a 109 have to be going before the wing comes off?

Being the 'target of choice' of Booming 109 for the last couple of years I have yet to see on loose a wing as they pass me!

Fixing your own 'crap' may be expected in the game development world, but I think TF should be commended for all the time and effort that they have put into correcting the flight models and other game issues that remained in CoD when 1C pulled the rug out from under the development team.


Thankyou TF! You guys are doing an awesome job!

31st_ff_yellow(26)
Sep-26-2013, 03:02
S! first ;)

btw... longe time i see the trimm-rudder from the elevator goes wrong direktion...

if you trimm the spits-nose down the trimm-rudder still goes to up position...
thatz not a problem for the game because the trimming workes fine but if you look backwards your eye get sick :beaten:

Kling
Sep-26-2013, 05:23
Just out of interest, exactly how fast does a 109 have to be going before the wing comes off?

Being the 'target of choice' of Booming 109 for the last couple of years I have yet to see on loose a wing as they pass me!

Fixing your own 'crap' may be expected in the game development world, but I think TF should be commended for all the time and effort that they have put into correcting the flight models and other game issues that remained in CoD when 1C pulled the rug out from under the development team.


Thankyou TF! You guys are doing an awesome job!
The 109 is certified to a dive speed of
750km/h and I just had a discussion with Buzzaw about this. When the 109 reaches 750 the planes doesnt just disintergrate but there is a random safety limit built in as well. But spend too long at 750 or above and she wil start losing parts.

In the next patch the famous heavyness of the 109 elevator is properly and very realistically modeled and dont be surprised if you see rookie pilots passing you in vertical dives without being able to pull up before they hit the ground. A not too uncommon sight during Battle of Britain.
BnZ in the 109 will not be as easy once the speed builds up.
In real life at high speed the 109 elevator was rock solid at 750 and the only way to pull up is with trim as will be the case in the next pach.
Fear not, Buzzaw has done a great job with the FM for all planes!
Regards

Mattias
Sep-26-2013, 05:36
The 109 is certified to a dive speed of
750km/h and I just had a discussion with Buzzaw about this. When the 109 reaches 750 the planes doesnt just disintergrate but there is a random safety limit built in as well. But spend too long at 750 or above and she wil start losing parts.

In the next patch the famous heavyness of the 109 elevator is properly and very realistically modeled and dont be surprised if you see rookie pilots passing you in vertical dives without being able to pull up before they hit the ground. A not too uncommon sight during Battle of Britain.
BnZ in the 109 will not be as easy once the speed builds up.
In real life at high speed the 109 elevator was rock solid at 750 and the only way to pull up is with trim as will be the case in the next pach.
Fear not, Buzzaw has done a great job with the FM for all planes!
Regards

+1 :thumbsup:

I read a quote at www.virtualpilots.fi reminding me of this (note he's talking about the 109 G, so I'm not suggesting a 109 E should be able to repeat this. He was also probably very lucky :D):

Me 109 G:
"The maximum speed not to be exceeded was 750kmh. Once I was flying above Helsinki as I received a report of Russkies in the South. There was a big Cumulus cloud on my way there but I decided to fly right through. I centered the controls and then something extraordinary happened. I must have involuntarily entered into half-roll and dive. The planes had individual handling characteristics; even though I held the turning indicator in the middle, the plane kept going faster and faster, I pulled the stick, yet the plane went into an ever steeper dive.
In the same time she started rotating, and I came out of the cloud with less than one kilometer of altitude. I started pulling the stick, nothing happened, I checked the speed, it was about 850kmh. I tried to recover the plane but the stick was as if locked and nothing happened. I broke into a sweat of agony: now I am going into the sea and cannot help it. I pulled with both hands, groaning and by and by she started recovering, she recovered more, I pulled and pulled, but the surface of the sea approached, I thought I was going to crash. I kept pulling until I saw that I had survived. The distance between me and the sea may have been five meters. I pulled up and found myself on the coast of Estonia.
If I in that situation had used the vertical trim the wings would have been broken off. A minimal trim movement has a strong effect on wings when the speed limit has been exceded. I had 100kmh overspeed! It was out of all limits.
The Messerschmitt's wings were fastened with two bolts. When I saw the construction I had thought that they are strong enough but in this case I was thinking, when are they going to break
- What about the phenomenon called "buffeting" or vibration, was there any?
No, I did not encounter it even in the 850kmh speed."
- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

5./JG27Meyer
Sep-26-2013, 06:55
The 109 is certified to a dive speed of
750km/h and I just had a discussion with Buzzaw about this. When the 109 reaches 750 the planes doesnt just disintergrate but there is a random safety limit built in as well. But spend too long at 750 or above and she wil start losing parts.

In the next patch the famous heavyness of the 109 elevator is properly and very realistically modeled and dont be surprised if you see rookie pilots passing you in vertical dives without being able to pull up before they hit the ground. A not too uncommon sight during Battle of Britain.
BnZ in the 109 will not be as easy once the speed builds up.
In real life at high speed the 109 elevator was rock solid at 750 and the only way to pull up is with trim as will be the case in the next pach.
Fear not, Buzzaw has done a great job with the FM for all planes!
Regards

We shall see, waiting with baited breath

Kling
Sep-26-2013, 07:02
We shall see, waiting with baited breath

what part?

5./JG27Meyer
Sep-26-2013, 07:15
For the revamped FM for all the planes
most of all the following


Salute All

Couldn't resist posting this, sometimes I am just so impressed by the teamwork and expertise in TF. :D

For all those 109 drivers who have long suspected there was a bug in the way the 109's take rad damage... you were right.

Our damage guy, Catseye, has been working on this issue for a while, and noticed there didn't seem to be a discrete damage .msh for the 109's rads... instead the vanilla game was using the whole inner wing section as the hit box for the rads. He took this to Colander, who looked at the code for this and confirmed the error.

Now if you look at the following diagram of the 109E's rad system, you can see that would provide an aiming area much much larger than the actual rads size, hence the very easy hit possibility when shooting at the 109 wing.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6796/73w6.jpg

What this means is we need to create new .msh objects for the Rads in the correct size, hopefully we can do this for the upcoming release... no guarantees. But if we do, we'll see much more realistic hit probabilities for the 109 rads.

Also while Colander was confirming the issue with the 109 rads, he took a look at the Spit's rad... as many have noticed, the Spits never take rad damage.

Well it seems the 1C developers have misnamed the .msh file for the rad, and therefore it was never taking damage... :stunned:

Unfortunately we run across this type of error quite a bit... but anyway it should be fixable by renaming the .msh file.

So all those who despaired of their 109's damage model... we are working on it. :salute:

And those Spit drivers... Sorry to say, but Rads are going to be an issue. But it will be a realistic one. :salute:

Skoshi_Tiger
Sep-26-2013, 08:03
For the revamped FM for all the planes
most of all the following

Meyer,

did you see this follow up post?


Salute All

Well sometimes you have to wipe the egg off your face and admit the facts. :doh:

Correction to the thread I posted on the 109 radiator hit area being oversized... it isn't.

While the 3D meshes only show the larger area of the shrouding and the surrounding wing area, and no Rad, inside a particular area of the code there is a section where the Rad appears, and it is the right size. So there is no game error... Seems the game handles radiators directly in the code.

I'll take responsibility for the goof, I saw progress on our internal board by our coder, jumped the gun and posted when I should have waited to see the final results.

That is not to say we don't think there is something wrong with the way the 109's rads take damage, but we are still investigating and the solution is not the creation of a smaller rad hit area, it is already the right size.

Mea Culpa... just wanted to give the members of this board an eye into the workings of Team Fusion, but next time I'll wait till our systems are finalized. :salute:

9./JG52 Ziegler
Sep-26-2013, 08:28
Skoshi,

While you may not have seen it much, I (and any other 109 driver) can assure you that indeed the wings do come off.
It's not a hard and fast "when" it happens but it IS hard and fast that you are flying when the wing comes off. :ind:
It's really dependent on how how hard you pull out of a dive. It can also happen when you put negative then possitive pressure more then a couple times in a dive. That said I can dive at 750-800 and if I'm very ginger with it I'll still be flying, but any ham fistedness and you're going in.
The controls do firm up at higher speeds as was historical although we don't actually feel it, the roll rate in particular is very diminished at high speeds.

I guess what I'm saying is that rather than a rule it's really more pilot dependent on whether or not you bend a wing off once you enter that damage envelope.

5./JG27Meyer
Sep-26-2013, 08:35
No Skoshi i didnt see that update , thanks for making my day :ind: lol
maybe the second part of the initial post might come true then
this part

quote
Also while Colander was confirming the issue with the 109 rads, he took a look at the Spit's rad... as many have noticed, the Spits never take rad damage.

Well it seems the 1C developers have misnamed the .msh file for the rad, and therefore it was never taking damage...

Unfortunately we run across this type of error quite a bit... but anyway it should be fixable by renaming the .msh file.quote

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-26-2013, 08:42
Spitfire rads never get damaged? I want one of THOSE Spits!!!! :thumbsup:

9./JG52 Ziegler
Sep-26-2013, 08:43
No Skoshi i didnt see that update , thanks for making my day :ind: lol
maybe the second part of the initial post might come true then
this part

quote
Also while Colander was confirming the issue with the 109 rads, he took a look at the Spit's rad... as many have noticed, the Spits never take rad damage.

Well it seems the 1C developers have misnamed the .msh file for the rad, and therefore it was never taking damage...

Unfortunately we run across this type of error quite a bit... but anyway it should be fixable by renaming the .msh file.quote

:):thumbsup:

VO101_Kurfurst
Oct-08-2013, 10:39
In the next patch the famous heavyness of the 109 elevator is properly and very realistically modeled and dont be surprised if you see rookie pilots passing you in vertical dives without being able to pull up before they hit the ground. A not too uncommon sight during Battle of Britain.
BnZ in the 109 will not be as easy once the speed builds up.
In real life at high speed the 109 elevator was rock solid at 750 and the only way to pull up is with trim as will be the case in the next pach.
Fear not, Buzzaw has done a great job with the FM for all planes!
Regards

May I ask what reference is to be used for this FM modelling?

Especially as "the only way to pull up is with trim" strikes me as plain BS.

Now for the record, the 109 manual does note that pull outs from dives are recommended with the trim left in neutral (ie. trimmed to normal level flight speeds) settings, and it would ease the pullout. Several reports exist showing the 109 doing fairly tight turns with this recommended setting up to 420-430 mph IAS, ie. the dive limit.

Recovering when the aircraft was trimmed into dive (against regulations) was difficult, but not impossible, though the pilots reportedly could not exert enough force to black themselves out (meaning not reaching 5 gs or so). Nota bene - maximum sustained turns are usually meaning no more than about 2,5-3 g sustained.

The 109 manual also warns against using the trim in dives given that it can be so effective that the load limits may be exceeded if used or if it malfunctions.

To me it seems some want to turn the 109 into a silly lawn dart, which it wasn't.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-08-2013, 10:48
Several reports exist showing the 109 doing fairly tight turns with this recommended setting up to 420-430 mph IAS, ie. the dive limit.


430 mph is only 690kph.
You can Manoeuvre the 109 at and beyond 690kph, no problem.

fret not, there is no conspiracy.

VO101_Kurfurst
Oct-08-2013, 10:59
Yeah sorry, its just that the Olegish freezing elevators nonsense of old Il-2 left a deep emotional scar. :D

ATAG_Snapper
Oct-08-2013, 11:03
430 mph is only 690kph.
You can Manoeuvre the 109 at and beyond 690kph, no problem.

fret not, there is no conspiracy.

In this version of Cliffs of Dover 430mph/690kmh IAS is the Spitfire's dive limit. 109's can easily outdive Spitfires at 750kmh/467mph IAS which I witness virtually every sortie and I believe is historically correct.