Distance when "dots" (aircraft) appear

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Hi all,

Just thinking out loud about when (at what distance) we should be able to see aircraft dots appear.

Human eye, can at 20/20 vision make out any pattern which is at ;least one arc minute in angle. An arc minute is 1/60 of one degree, that is 0.016 degrees.


Now, using some basic trig, an aircraft with a 10m wingspan (close to a spitfire) should therefore be at least theoretically visible at approximately 35km.
However, taking into account the profile (not always showing it's wings in profile) and camouflage of such an object, lets' assume we can use double the arc (2 minute arcs). This 2-minute arc is equivalent to 0.033 degrees.

An object of 10m takes 2 minute arcs of the sky when it is 17km away.

Should we be expecting then, dots to appear about 15 to 17km away?

What range does the game currently render the dots (assuming you have visibilitydistance set to the maximum value in the conf.ini).. I have a feeling it is about that distance (15km)....

[SoW Reddog]

Phil,

On a horizontal plane I'd agree with you, generally I have a hunch I'm getting distinguishable contact dots about 10-12km away at "best". However, vertically, I fear I cannot distinguish a dot or aircraft at more than about 5 thousand feet up, and down I can't see dots at all. I've sat on Hawkinge looking up while being bombed and been completely unable to see the aircraft doing it. As anyone who's looked up at an airliner can tell you, they're pretty blooming obvious waaaaay up there.

[Kling]

First of all, airliners are alot bigger than anything we have in game (except the fw200 maybe) and they are almost always white.
Second, against a blue sky with you standing on the ground its easy to see them even without contrails..

But as an airline pilot i can tell you that an airline can be difficult to spot at more than 10nm away even if the Tcas tells mes where to look. Occasionally i see Ac at 15-20nm if they are big. I have also, without results, tried to see planes within 5miles even together with my pilot collegue. A spit is very very small i would be surprised to see one at more than 5-8nm.

[SoW Reddog]

Kling, good points. However, you never really see a "dot" in real life, you tend to see a shape. Thus while a HE111 might not be the size of an airliner, I'd expect to see it if it were 20000ft above me. That's what, not quite 7km (a little over 4-5miles?). Plus, it's in plan form, and there's usually not just one, but a bunch in formation, a nice non natural shape which the eye recognises as "foreign" quite easily? if it is rendering as a dot, it should still stand out from the sky a bit better. Camo is good, but not perfect. Its designed to give you an edge, not make you invisible.



I think I need to stop playing then because I keep getting hit by planes I can't see, but the mere fact they're killing me all the time suggests that my Spit is very obvious in the sky, even over land where my brown and green should afford some help in the same regard as the blue grey gives the 109 in the sky. It must be down to my settings somewhere, but I'm buggered if I know what as I've tried pretty much every trick I've seen, heard, anecdotally or with evidence. I have even flown straight ahead while looking solidly back and never seen the aircraft drop behind me.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Reddog, Dots cannot get on your tail and shoot you down. Be careful not to conflate the dots with the LOD issues.

Seeing aircraft close in (<2km) and seeing the dots (2km+) are different issues.


Best things you can do are;
1. Install some video recording software. Make videos when you are in combat and look over them after the fights. I've seen aircraft showing up in my videos that I never saw when I was in the fight... and I was looking right at them (they're in the middle of my video)! Same monitor.. same GFX... same everything.

2. Record a couple of fights with the in-game track recorder. Use the ATAG converter tool to enable 3rd party views and work out where they are attacking you from.
Go back into the cockpit, and swivel your head to where the eternal view told you they were approaching from. See if you can see them.


Besides the above, knowing "where" to look is 50% of the problem. An aircraft that shoots you without your seeing him might not have been on your six, so looking behind you will not necessarily have made a difference. 109s are more likely to attack from above your head given their boom/zoom style.

[SoW Reddog]

That's a good tip Phil, re the video and postmortem.

Agreed that the two aren't the same, but there is a point where the plane shooting me down WAS a dot. And I know there are occasions when I never see the dot, despite others doing so (as you should as it's usually you calling it out and me going "I don't see them")

[56RAF_klem]

Phil,

On a horizontal plane I'd agree with you, generally I have a hunch I'm getting distinguishable contact dots about 10-12km away at "best". However, vertically, I fear I cannot distinguish a dot or aircraft at more than about 5 thousand feet up, and down I can't see dots at all. I've sat on Hawkinge looking up while being bombed and been completely unable to see the aircraft doing it. As anyone who's looked up at an airliner can tell you, they're pretty blooming obvious waaaaay up there.

Do you know that the default dot visibility range is set to 14km?

Go into the console (Shift+Tab) and enter:
mp_dotrange

It will return all the dot and colour settings as defined in the mission server although I believe, unlike IL-2 '46, server settings don't work and the default is fixed at 14km.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Do you know that the default dot visibility range is set to 14km?

Go into the console (Shift+Tab) and enter:
mp_dotrange

It will return all the dot and colour settings as defined in the mission server although I believe, unlike IL-2 '46, server settings don't work and the default is fixed at 14km.

oh sweet! didn't know that.
Thanks Klem.
:salute:

[1lokos]

If I remember correctly back in time are stated in UbiZ00 that il2 engine are only able to show icons/labels up to 15KM.

Testing with CloD (res 1920x1080 and 1600x900) what I "see".

mp_dotrange set to show icons and range at 20KM

http://i40.tinypic.com/2n16j4.jpg

Around 15KM label start to became visible, but icon no.
Icons, using FOV 90 (the most favorable) appear around 10/12KM (look under/left of 10, you see 2 small dots - this flight have 3 Hurricanes).

Shapes, if using FOV 30 only bellow 4 KM... and around 2,5 KM the LOD bug...

Sokol1

[92Sqn.Strings (GZ-O)]

oh sweet! didn't know that.
Thanks Klem.
:salute:

actually.....you did cause i told you:P

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

actually.....you did cause i told you:P

you told me about dotrange in the icon/ rcu files.
Not that you could read it from the in-game console.

[AKA_Recon]

I don't think seeing 'dots' is the problem. It's when the dots become 'planes' and tend to blend into the terrain and whites of the skies at certain angles that makes it hard to see. I'm curious at what range does the dot become the aircraft.

The irony is, I can see a dot of a ship, or a ground target from 20,000 feet in the sky :)

Obviously a ground of larger bombers is also easy to see those dots.

It's helped to turn the res down a notch as well as gamma.

Work is being done to make this better, so I have hope :)

[Wolf]

I don't think seeing 'dots' is the problem. It's when the dots become 'planes' and tend to blend into the terrain and whites of the skies at certain angles that makes it hard to see. I'm curious at what range does the dot become the aircraft.

The irony is, I can see a dot of a ship, or a ground target from 20,000 feet in the sky :)

Obviously a ground of larger bombers is also easy to see those dots.

It's helped to turn the res down a notch as well as gamma.

Work is being done to make this better, so I have hope :)

I don't know about planes as I have not played with the .msh files on them yet. But I can tell you that ships are hard coded into their msh/ heir file on import to CLOD with set visibility distances. For example when I imported my battleship I gave it a visibility distance of 5000 meters. The battLeship shows up 5km out or about 2000m before all other ships. I think most tanks are set to 2000m also just like planes. So when we break open the planes we should be able to see a set visibility distance in there also. That said I also saw in the coding a while ago distances set for planes and vehicles in some ini I think.

But this should answer your question

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

I don't think seeing 'dots' is the problem. ..

Perhaps. But this thread is explicitly about the long-range dots, and not about general short-distance visibility.

There are some guys claiming they can see dots from 20 miles + away. I don't think it's possible, if the game does not even render in dots at that distance.

This is very important, because if someone tells me they see a dot, and they think it renders in 20 miles away, they will report the aircraft in an incorrect location. There are guys getting airborne at Hawkinge reporting aircraft over the French coast - a distance of 20 miles! I think they're mistaken, and that what they see is either (1) a ground object, or (2) a lot closer than they realise.

[SoW Reddog]

I don't know about planes as I have not played with the .msh files on them yet. But I can tell you that ships are hard coded into their msh/ heir file on import to CLOD with set visibility distances. For example when I imported my battleship I gave it a visibility distance of 5000 meters. The battLeship shows up 5km out or about 2000m before all other ships. I think most tanks are set to 2000m also just like planes. So when we break open the planes we should be able to see a set visibility distance in there also. That said I also saw in the coding a while ago distances set for planes and vehicles in some ini I think.

But this should answer your question

Wolf, I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but does this suggest that we could remove the dot system by setting this vis distance to say 15km, and therefore planes would render as lods that far out (suitably scaled presumeably?). I realise that this would probably cripple every machine, but am I understanding what you're saying correctly? It'd be great if we could push out the dot-lod transition for some objects a little further if it were possible at some later date.

[gavagai]

Wolf, I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but does this suggest that we could remove the dot system by setting this vis distance to say 15km, and therefore planes would render as lods that far out (suitably scaled presumeably?). I realise that this would probably cripple every machine, but am I understanding what you're saying correctly? It'd be great if we could push out the dot-lod transition for some objects a little further if it were possible at some later date.

It would not cripple anything. A few years ago there was a similar discussion in RoF. Rather than having dot-blobs, aircraft just disappeared at a certain distance. The developer claimed that extending the render distance would cripple everyone's performance and so they wouldn't even try to do it. Finally, they caved in, and the result was an extended draw distance with close to zero performance impact.

After the LoD fix getting rid of the dot-blobs entirely is a logical step. It's really screwed up to see dots on the horizon, narrow the FoV, and have them remain the same size!:doh:

[1lokos]

Seens that Oleg read Sthepen Bungay "The Most Dangerous Enemy" (or maybe Sthepen play Oleg's sim): :D


Detection is the first and most important. In World War I this depended on seeing the enemy.

In World War II it still depended largely on sight, but it helped to have a controller telling you over the radio roughly where your enemy was.
The sky had to be systematically quartered and searched.
In perfect conditions, a single aircraft can be picked up at a range of about two miles; in haze it is less.

A large formation can be seen from far further away, perhaps four miles.
An aircraft approaching head-on is harder to acquire visually because itis smaller and offers no relative movement.
In the air above the clouds, the sun is bright and effectively blocks out about 15% of the field of vision.
Flying upsun makes an aircraft virtually invisible.



Sokol1

[AKA_Recon]

Perhaps. But this thread is explicitly about the long-range dots, and not about general short-distance visibility.

There are some guys claiming they can see dots from 20 miles + away. I don't think it's possible, if the game does not even render in dots at that distance.

This is very important, because if someone tells me they see a dot, and they think it renders in 20 miles away, they will report the aircraft in an incorrect location. There are guys getting airborne at Hawkinge reporting aircraft over the French coast - a distance of 20 miles! I think they're mistaken, and that what they see is either (1) a ground object, or (2) a lot closer than they realise.

I agree 100%

I've noticed that visibility of dots vs. overall distance visibility on the map creates somewhat of a perspective illusion. Because of this, often times I might say 'I see the bombers at xyz' , but the more experience I get flying in the game, I realize that when they draw in it's different than I realize.

Just as a reference:

3632

When I spot a group of bombers, there is no way it's 20 miles away that I'm seeing them, I would at the very minimal need to be maybe half way across the channel (just a guess) at least. Edit: so yes to Sokol1, based on that observation, I'd probably be more like 5-8 miles away.

I do 100% think there is a learning of 'how to see' in this game. Other times though I swear, I'll see a fight, look away, and literally lose all the planes.

What is really a distraction right now is seeing dots through the clouds - you think it's an aircraft, then you find out it's a ground unit that is visible through the clouds themselves.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Perhaps. But this thread is explicitly about the long-range dots, and not about general short-distance visibility.

There are some guys claiming they can see dots from 20 miles + away. I don't think it's possible, if the game does not even render in dots at that distance.

This is very important, because if someone tells me they see a dot, and they think it renders in 20 miles away, they will report the aircraft in an incorrect location. There are guys getting airborne at Hawkinge reporting aircraft over the French coast - a distance of 20 miles! I think they're mistaken, and that what they see is either (1) a ground object, or (2) a lot closer than they realise.

The default distance for dots (server setting) is 14km I believe, and can be maxed out to 25km. You actually can see the 25km dots (our server is set at max) but you're not going to have much luck seeing the dot unless you have a very low resolution as its initial makeup is a single/double pixel. But you can see dots 25km away. They are there.

[AKA_Recon]

14k == 8.6 miles
25k == 15 miles

So, for someone to say they see dots 20 miles away would be false claim :)

[Foul Ole Ron]

14km is probably ok. It's a bit on the far side as a single fighter plane wouldn't really be visible beyond 5-6nm (just over 11km) for the average pilot. Of course you get some very sharp-eyed pilots like Pappy Boyington but they're very rare. 25km is too much - your average pilot back in WW2 was not picking out a fighter plane at that distance. Just think how hard it is to spot a jetliner flying at 30k feet (9km) without contrails to help.

[ATAG_Snapper]

We should keep in mind that Battle of Britain pilots flew many sorties without spotting any aircraft. The e/a may well have been within visible range -- just didn't get spotted. Similarly, a lot of BoB pilots saw little or no action throughout the entire time period because of nojoy or, at best, a fleeting glimpse of distant unidentified bogeys.

Before we start splitting hairs over realistic spotting distances, I don't want to be the only one flying on our deserted server because "it's no longer fun -- I can't see ANYBODY". We don't have dozens of staffels or squadrons in the air, nor do we have hundreds of bombers in formation. Please let's not take the fun out of Cliffs of Dover in the uber-pursuit of absolute visibility realism!

[1lokos]

Suggestion for Bo$: "Hide" more the dot. :D


Type of improvement: Game Play
Explanation of proposals: I try again with an old suggestion of mine for CloD, but this time more balanced for the developer.

Visual acuity changes with the distance of the target. Fighter pilots do not passively wait for targets to spot in front of them, but they actually scan the sky with a method who requires time.
It's all in the document below.
The idea is to limit the contact spotting (the engine doesn't draw the dot/3dmodel) to a narrow area in the center of the camera (pilot's vision): this area's size is related to the distance and size of the target.
The developer should simulate peripherical vision by glimps out of this area and shrink its size if the pilot is looking at the sun (the sun behind the pilot was a tactical advantage that combat flight sims do not stress enough).

This should be an option, of course.

http://pt.scribd.com/doc/83007395/Visual-Search-in-Air-Combat

Benefits: This target spotting system would improve realism:
Ambushes could be more frequent, as the scanning pilot can miss an area there the enemy really is, and this one can attack it unnoticed: this would extremely improve the gameplay balancing the plane performance since the worse plane can still ambush the best one. Today, with pilots of the same skill/experience, it's all on the plane performance.
More eyes are need to scan the sky effectively: because of this teamplay is more important, and lone wolves are going to suffer.
Since the scanning area is narrow, pilots would be forced to fly in close formation, so there is a minor chance to be spotted.

Sokol1

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Suggestion for Bo$: "Hide" more the dot. :D

Sokol1

In many respects I agree with you Sokol1.

We must be careful what we wish for. Too much visibility runs the risk of creating an arcade game!

However, it's also important to try and make sure that it's not hardware that is the main reason for success and failure in the game. People are resorting to all sorts of tweaks the the moment, in order to "see".

A balance between invisibility and still preserving the need for a good lookout as well as the ability to stalk an opponent, needs to be found.

[92Sqn.MooNBirD]

The default distance for dots (server setting) is 14km I believe, and can be maxed out to 25km. You actually can see the 25km dots (our server is set at max) but you're not going to have much luck seeing the dot unless you have a very low resolution as its initial makeup is a single/double pixel. But you can see dots 25km away. They are there.

LOL I told you so Phill .............~MB~................