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Combat Wombat
Aug-20-2013, 01:41
The 109 cockpit feels lot bigger in this simulator than in real life saying that they both had there faults but I know which one I would prefer to be bailing out of.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9YVei2Yb_k




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFj8NDqZhlc

Gromit
Aug-20-2013, 05:40
What really stands out to me in that is the rear visibility, there's no room to crane your neck round and check six without head butting the canopy, especially on the 109, I think the pilots in the game have too small a head!

kopperdrake
Aug-20-2013, 06:21
This all proves my argument that virtual 109 pilots should be made to wear a slightly-too-tight cardboard box over their heads and made to sit in a wheelbarrow to get a realistic feeling of what it's like to fly a 109, whilst us reds are perfectly catered for in our easy-chairs with flip down bar :D

Gromit
Aug-20-2013, 06:41
This all proves my argument that virtual 109 pilots should be made to wear a slightly-too-tight cardboard box over their heads and made to sit in a wheelbarrow to get a realistic feeling of what it's like to fly a 109, whilst us reds are perfectly catered for in our easy-chairs with flip down bar :D

A wheelbarrow is far to generous, a leisure centre clothes locker would be far more appropriate!

vranac
Aug-20-2013, 06:51
This all proves my argument that virtual 109 pilots should be made to wear a slightly-too-tight cardboard box over their heads and made to sit in a wheelbarrow to get a realistic feeling of what it's like to fly a 109, whilst us reds are perfectly catered for in our easy-chairs with flip down bar :D
:D

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/1f/XJ/3D9Bku8F/1353459528.jpg

Gromit
Aug-20-2013, 07:45
oh my, someone please get that man a life!

ATAG_Freya
Aug-20-2013, 09:10
Is that a cigarette in his hand? Doesn't he know that av-gas is extremely flammable?

gavagai
Aug-25-2013, 21:59
Dear oh dear. There's a fun clip where a German pilot sits in Spitfire and remarks that he wouldn't want to try to bail out of one....same old nationalistic bull...and the P-51 was the most maneuverable fighter of WW2.

Katdog5
Aug-25-2013, 22:17
This all proves my argument that virtual 109 pilots should be made to wear a slightly-too-tight cardboard box over their heads and made to sit in a wheelbarrow to get a realistic feeling of what it's like to fly a 109, whilst us reds are perfectly catered for in our easy-chairs with flip down bar :D

Hahaha!

III./ZG76_Keller
Aug-25-2013, 22:26
I've seen those videos before and it still amazes me that he doesn't realize that the 109s canopy can be jettisoned. This would save precious seconds compared to the spit pilot that would have to slide the canopy back, not to mention if you'd been wounded in the arms.

Cybermat47
Aug-25-2013, 22:34
I've seen those videos before and it still amazes me that he doesn't realize that the 109s canopy can be jettisoned. This would save precious seconds compared to the spit pilot that would have to slide the canopy back, not to mention if you'd been wounded in the arms.

Exactly. That's why I think that the Bf 109 was a bit better than a Spitfire. Just because of the jettisonable. I also like the 109s firepower. But the Spitfire (which I haven't flown much) seems to be a better dogfighter. The few times I've shot down Spitfires (AI, I play mostly TEF Campaign), is when they're out of fuel/ammo and going back to base, because the AI flies straight until you get within 15 metres.

Wait, what was I talking about again? :doh:

Wulf
Aug-25-2013, 23:06
But the Spitfire (which I haven't flown much) seems to be a better dogfighter. The few times I've shot down Spitfires (AI, I play mostly TEF Campaign), is when they're out of fuel/ammo and going back to base, because the AI flies straight until you get within 15 metres.

Wait, what was I talking about again? :doh:


The age old question, which was better, the Spit or the 109 . Well we know the answer, it was the Spit. By 1942 the 109 was really beginning to run out of puff whereas the Spit was just starting to stretch its legs. However, the BoB era 109 is easily a match for the Mk1 and 2 generation of Spits.

IMO there are just a few absolutes that must be observed if you wish to remain competitive in a 109 - and 'dog fight'. Firstly, NEVER but NEVER, EVER follow a Spit into a turn! And I mean never - not even once. If the Spit breaks in front of you stay straight, climb and establish good separation and 'then' turn. Secondly, maintain altitude. When the shite really hits the fan you only have a couple of realistic options in a 109 and they all involve some form of dive. Typically, I like to split S or even double split S. But diving away at 400m off the deck simply doesn't work. 'Stay high', if you know what I mean :D

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Aug-25-2013, 23:24
The age old question, which was better, the Spit or the 109 . Well we know the answer, it was the Spit. By 1942 the 109 was really beginning to run out of puff whereas the Spit was just starting to stretch its legs. However, the BoB era 109 is easily a match for the Mk1 and 2 generation of Spits.

IMO there are just a few absolutes that must be observed if you wish to remain competitive in a 109 - and 'dog fight'. Firstly, NEVER but NEVER, EVER follow a Spit into a turn! And I mean never - not even once. If the Spit breaks in front of you stay straight, climb and establish good separation and 'then' turn. Secondly, maintain altitude. When the shite really hits the fan you only have a couple of realistic options in a 109 and they all involve some form of dive. Typically, I like to split S or even double split S. But diving away at 400m off the deck simply doesn't work. 'Stay high', if you know what I mean :D

There will be some other options besides diving away available with TF 4.0, not saying you want to get into turn fights, but the rollrates ARE being revised and there are such things as a 'Rolling Scissors'.

Wulf
Aug-26-2013, 00:28
There will be some other options besides diving away available with TF 4.0, not saying you want to get into turn fights, but the rollrates ARE being revised and there are such things as a 'Rolling Scissors'.



Yes, that might be a useful option if you can out-roll the bad guy and he wants to play. That should be fun. However, if he has 'E' and knows what he's about, he's going to climb and turn you into a BnZ target.

Gromit
Aug-26-2013, 04:49
Exactly. That's why I think that the Bf 109 was a bit better than a Spitfire. Just because of the jettisonable. I also like the 109s firepower. But the Spitfire (which I haven't flown much) seems to be a better dogfighter. The few times I've shot down Spitfires (AI, I play mostly TEF Campaign), is when they're out of fuel/ammo and going back to base, because the AI flies straight until you get within 15 metres.

Wait, what was I talking about again? :doh:

You can jettison the hood on a Spit too, that's what the rubber ball was for!

you can argue all day which was better, for every pro there was a con, in reality there was nothing to chose between them, just how you used them!

gavagai
Aug-26-2013, 10:37
The age old question, which was better, the Spit or the 109 . Well we know the answer, it was the Spit. By 1942 the 109 was really beginning to run out of puff whereas the Spit was just starting to stretch its legs. However, the BoB era 109 is easily a match for the Mk1 and 2 generation of Spits.

IMO there are just a few absolutes that must be observed if you wish to remain competitive in a 109 - and 'dog fight'. Firstly, NEVER but NEVER, EVER follow a Spit into a turn! And I mean never - not even once. If the Spit breaks in front of you stay straight, climb and establish good separation and 'then' turn. Secondly, maintain altitude. When the shite really hits the fan you only have a couple of realistic options in a 109 and they all involve some form of dive. Typically, I like to split S or even double split S. But diving away at 400m off the deck simply doesn't work. 'Stay high', if you know what I mean :D

According to some pilots the 109 out-turned the Spitfire. By 1942 the Merlin Spitfire had reached its limit and the Griffon engine in the later marks ruined the handling qualities. Both the 109 and Spitfire were outclassed by later fighters of WW2.

Here's a contemporary account. Some wartime pilots had the same opinion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

sw1ive
Aug-26-2013, 15:24
who wae the stronger engine (more power hp) ???

how meny hp for spit and how meny for bf ???

is it true ???
( bf was moving vertically (up) to escape of spit
because was stronger engine and was stalling after of spit)

Wulf
Aug-26-2013, 18:47
According to some pilots the 109 out-turned the Spitfire. By 1942 the Merlin Spitfire had reached its limit and the Griffon engine in the later marks ruined the handling qualities. Both the 109 and Spitfire were outclassed by later fighters of WW2.

Here's a contemporary account. Some wartime pilots had the same opinion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94


Hi Gavagai

Yeah, I've seen the video before. Frankly, I'm not sure if 'Skip' is taking the piss, is on the piss or whether he's one of those interesting 'Area 51 people'. Maybe he's a combination of all three. Could the 109 out-turn a Spit in certain circumstances?? Yes of course, but speed for speed, no, not really, not even close.

Now, just so we understand each other, I'm not trying to knock the 109. It's my third favourite aircraft of all time, (Spit/190, 109) BUT, the fact is that as the war progressed the performance gap between the Spit and 109 widened. Yes, the speed of the 109 improved over time but the simple reality is that the basic airframe just couldn't keep up. The Spit IXB, which I think entered service in about mid'43 (an aircraft that could perhaps be described as a second generation Mk IX) pretty much wiped the floor with the 109Gs and the 190 A series as well. And although the Spit VIX was not quite as nimble as the IX, at least in some respects, it was without a shadow of a doubt, the most accomplished Allied air supremacy fighter of the War. A well flown Tempest would have made a Mk 14 driver work pretty hard for his money down low but up above 20,000 it was supreme.

VO101_Kurfurst
Sep-20-2013, 11:25
The 109 cockpit feels lot bigger in this simulator than in real life saying that they both had there faults but I know which one I would prefer to be bailing out of.

The Spitfire and 109 cocpits were pretty much the same size, canopy width as a matter of fact slightly larger than on the early Spit (which did not have yet the malcolm hood, which made it just about the same in size). Now the Spit fuselage was quite a bit "deeper" because of the more upright seating position of the pilot. This was about the only real difference between the two as far as size goes. Both were very much designed with dwarf amputees in mind. :)

On the 109E you had canopy jettison, on the early Spit you had to manually slide back the canopy. Later I believe some kind of jettison system emerged on the Spit, too.

A cross section of the 109E - early Spitfire cocpit cross section. Don't loose any hair counting milimeters, they are practically exactly the same size in width. The early Spitfire canopy (before the Malcolm hood) was in fact a bit narrower... ... and here's a comparison with the Malcolm hood. Again, nothing to get excited about.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/CocpitCrossSection_109-Spit.jpg (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Kurfurst/media/CocpitCrossSection_109-Spit.jpg.html)