Missing gunsights/blurry terrain

[Leandro]

Hello,

When I toggle gunsight illumination, the gunsight area becomes more well lit but the sight itself isn't there. Also, the terrain textures are very blurry, almost as if there's a LOD messup somewhere. Here's what it looks like with the sight on:

3849

I've looked in other places and some people have reported the same issue. I think we all have in common Windows 8, and an Nvidia card.

The problem seems to persist in many levels of detail, and makes combat a lot more difficult than it needs to be. Does anyone know of a fix and/or what's causing this?

Thanks!

[ATAG_Colander]

Hi Leandro,

Can you please post your system specs?

The screenshot seems like if the video card ran out of memory loading the textures.

[Leandro]

Hi, thanks for replying!

I thought I'd put my specs in the signature. In any case, here they are:

Intel i7-3630QM
Nvidia GeForce GTX 680M (4GB GDDR5)
DDRIII 16GB

It's a laptop, but a high-end gaming laptop anyway. So I don't think the usual lack of VRAM is at fault.

[Mattias]

Hi, thanks for replying!

I thought I'd put my specs in the signature. In any case, here they are:

Intel i7-3630QM
Nvidia GeForce GTX 680M (4GB GDDR5)
DDRIII 16GB

It's a laptop, but a high-end gaming laptop anyway. So I don't think the usual lack of VRAM is at fault.

:salute:

Ypu have 4 time the VRAM I have, so that's not the problem :thumbsup:
As Colander said, it looks like the textures are not properly loaded... have you tried to pause the game for a few minutes and see if it catches up? (Not that you should need to)

Cheers/m

[ATAG_Colander]

Also, it might be trying to run in SLI mode which causes issues with the game.

[Leandro]

:salute:

Ypu have 4 time the VRAM I have, so that's not the problem :thumbsup:
As Colander said, it looks like the textures are not properly loaded... have you tried to pause the game for a few minutes and see if it catches up? (Not that you should need to)

Cheers/m

:thumbsup:

Not particularly, but I played this game for a while before noticing that anything was wrong... I didn't know what the game was supposed to look like! Bought it pretty much because I heard good things about the flight model. I don't mind the blurriness as much as the missing gunsight, but I think it's likely that the two problems are related.


Also, it might be trying to run in SLI mode which causes issues with the game.

It's a single GPU, so no SLI. It could be an optimus issue, but changing the global gpu selection in the Nvidia control panel had no effect.

There are some other things I noticed that could be breaking the game:
- When I tried to install it via steam, it didn't work (par for the course in Windows 8), instead it held at a "Performing first time setup (step of)" dialog (without the step numbers). I then installed everything in the redist folder. Is there anything else that needs to be done to make the game install itself properly?
- Setting Steam to hide its overlay has no effect since I'm launching the game externally.

Thanks again for the help guys!

[ATAG_Bliss]

Have you messed with the config files at all? Like manually editing them? I did that one time and it made some of my textures not work properly. Only way to fix it was to delete my graphic config .ini files and let the game rebuild them. Then all was normal. Just another suggestion!

[Leandro]

Nope, I did look at it however to see if there was anything that looked like it could be responsible. Do you remember which setting messed things up for you?

By the way, I just noticed, the sight IS visible, just extremely faint. It's even visible in my first screenshot. To be sure, I took a night time screenshot and well if it wasn't interesting:

3859

Definitely seems like these textures are messed up/not loading properly. I'm going to try a fresh install, it's probably a long shot though.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Nope, I did look at it however to see if there was anything that looked like it could be responsible. Do you remember which setting messed things up for you?

By the way, I just noticed, the sight IS visible, just extremely faint. It's even visible in my first screenshot. To be sure, I took a night time screenshot and well if it wasn't interesting:

3859

Definitely seems like these textures are messed up/not loading properly. I'm going to try a fresh install, it's probably a long shot though.

You need to turn on your sight to get the full brightness... on the Hurricane its mid level dash on the right lower of the sight, on the Spitfire, to the left of the sight, almost hidden by it.

[Leandro]

That's what it looks like when it's on.

And yep, a fresh install didn't help.

[Greywing]

In the night screenie it looks like the texture for the GS is in a totally different (lower) res to the rest.

Is it possible the files downloaded from steam have become corrupt? Did you reinstall from the HDD or re-download from Steam?

[ATAG_Colander]

I still think SLI has something to do with it.
His description is a 4GB GPU and as far as I know, there are no single GPUs with 4GB of RAM.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

looks to me like a cache folder clearance is in order...

[Leandro]

In the night screenie it looks like the texture for the GS is in a totally different (lower) res to the rest.

Is it possible the files downloaded from steam have become corrupt? Did you reinstall from the HDD or re-download from Steam?

I re-downloaded, but I doubt that corruption is the issue, or I wouldn't see other people withe the same issue, in similar conditions.


I still think SLI has something to do with it.
His description is a 4GB GPU and as far as I know, there are no single GPUs with 4GB of RAM.

They started showing up in the 600-series cards (NVidia, no idea about ATI). SLI laptops from what I gather are incredibly finicky, wouldn't go near one with a ten foot pole. :D


looks to me like a cache folder clearance is in order...

Done it, twice, with and without the mod.

In any case I seem to have found at least a partial fix by switching the renderer from Direct3D 10.0 to 10.1 or 11.0. Doing so gave me a few visual artifacts and a frame rate drop (probably because now LOD-appropriate models and textures are being loaded) but at least the game's playable. I can live with it for the most part, but the nights look really weird, oversaturated, overbloomed. Applying the patch seems to aggravate it:

3902

[ATAG_Freya]

The terrain in your screenshots looks strange. Like too much saturation or something? Not sure if that has anything to do with your prob. That night time screeny just looks like the colours are outta whack. Are you messing with monitor settings at all? Or Nvidia desktop colour settings enabled on some extreme setting? Just a thought, hope you get it sorted!

Cheers,
Freya

[TheVino3]

No no, someones just put something funny in your tea again

[ATAG_Freya]

No no, someones just put something funny in your tea again

lol! Everything is making sense now! And yet not...far out man... :whacky:

[gavagai]

I have a similar issue sometimes where the gunsight starts off with a low-res texture, and then a few minutes later it does or does not update to a high res texture. For me my guess is that it's a lack of vram issue because I only have a 1gb card.

[ATAG_NakedSquirrel]

looks to me like a cache folder clearance is in order...

Yes, if you haven't make sure you go to User/documents/1c/ and delete your cache folder from the mod/game folder

[gavagai]

I will try that as well, thanks.

[gavagai]

This is how my gunsight sometimes appears:

3906

[Mastiff]

I still think SLI has something to do with it.
His description is a 4GB GPU and as far as I know, there are no single GPUs with 4GB of RAM.

my 680 GTX is 4GB single GPU here.

he running A laptop with the mobile graphis Nvidia
its a power issue you need to look at what settings to set full power to the GPU I know some one else had the same issue. it in your power setting I believe.

[E69_pupo]

i used to have this problem too, ot solve it a full reinstall was needed and a brand new conf.ini was placed.

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi.

I get exactly the same problem as Gavagai ( a couple of posts up) but only in 109's and only then over the Dover-Folkstone-Hawkinge area, the rest of England, France and the Channel is ok, and never any problems with reflector sights in any other planes red or blue at all, anywhere on the map. The 109 reticle goes from as nice sharp bright image to a dull, thick, blurry low res image when near the areas of the map mentioned above at all alt's, fly away from this area of the map and reticle goes back to the high res image again.


S!! Hub.

[mazex]

i used to have this problem too, ot solve it a full reinstall was needed and a brand new conf.ini was placed.

Well - I think going to C:\Users\<username>\Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover and moving all the *.ini-files to a backup folder somewhere will force the game to create new "fresh" ones (and you will not have to do the whole installation from start)? And if it don't work you can copy them back overwriting the newly created default .ini-files?

[312_Jura]

I have the same problem. But above that, I am unable to switch to anything other than D3D10_0. CLOD crashes on startup if I change the line in config.ini to something else. :/

[Mastiff]

if your on NVIDIA try turning off FXAA

[priller26]

Similar issue, flying 109 single quick mission intercept bombers (Blenheim) over Calais flying 109 whin I hit the first bomber my entire gunsight disappears, the frame for the gunsight is there but no recticle, I will get a 2 second freeze, gun sight will reappear after that. Did a complete vanilla steam reverify integrity, started from scratch, re added all patches in sequence being careful to each time delete and rebuild cache, saving conf files same problem.

Also got a runtime ctd and two error messages in game saying the pc can't handle the color and do I want to revert to windows basic color (never seen that in any game).

Still getting some distinct stutters during combat, game looks awesome can't see though any house lights flying over England or France at night, should I?

Did a reinstall of Microsoft net...system

Amd 1100t 6 core clocked at 3.8 runs stable, no ctd
16 gigs corsair vengeance ram running stock
Evga gtx 580 3gigs of ram drivers updated
Win 7 professional 64
850 power supply

Pc runs like a champ...

Thoughts?

[Screamadelica]

House lights are turned off as per blackout instructions at the time, although they did look nice when on at night. :)

I run the game in Windows Basic Colour, there was a thread somewhere about doing this, but can't remember where or why.

I usually get a small freeze/stutter at the start of combat too.

[Mastiff]

Similar issue, flying 109 single quick mission intercept bombers (Blenheim) over Calais flying 109 whin I hit the first bomber my entire gunsight disappears, the frame for the gunsight is there but no recticle, I will get a 2 second freeze, gun sight will reappear after that. Did a complete vanilla steam reverify integrity, started from scratch, re added all patches in sequence being careful to each time delete and rebuild cache, saving conf files same problem.

Also got a runtime ctd and two error messages in game saying the pc can't handle the color and do I want to revert to windows basic color (never seen that in any game).

Still getting some distinct stutters during combat, game looks awesome can't see though any house lights flying over England or France at night, should I?

Did a reinstall of Microsoft net...system

Amd 1100t 6 core clocked at 3.8 runs stable, no ctd
16 gigs corsair vengeance ram running stock
Evga gtx 580 3gigs of ram drivers updated
Win 7 professional 64
850 power supply

Pc runs like a champ...

Thoughts?

run setting on High, I had a 580 its not going to run this very well. 680 or higher.

you can keep it in NVIDIA color settings if you want, its the new drivers if you have them that cant cope with the game colors.

[priller26]

run setting on High, I had a 580 its not going to run this very well. 680 or higher.

you can keep it in NVIDIA color settings if you want, its the new drivers if you have them that cant cope with the game colors.


Mastiff, thanks, what should I run in high? Even the nvidia drivers from last spring caused that windows color error. Should I run land detail AND land shadows on high? Right now land detail is high,land shadows low,

,,also IMPORTANT question, you see my pc specs above, do you think my CPU could handle a nvidia Titan 6 gig, and do you think that card would handle the colors/performance better? I realize my card is getting dated and. 99 percent sure I will get the Titan card next month, for other games too, seems like a great card as long as my CPU ( AMD 1100T 6 core at 3.8 ) can handle and make use of all the info the high end card generates, thanks.

[priller26]

Re missing gunsight graphics in the Me109, very strange, but flew 5 seperate missions, single player quick mission, bomber intercept over calais, it seems this happens (and some graphic stutters upon shooting up a Blenheim) only when Im playing an later 109E with 17 mm mgs, and 20mm cannons, when I play an early me109 with only the 17mgs and no 20mm cannones, the graphics seem fine, no stutters and no missing recticle. In any event, the missing gunsight only happens once, but will freeze one to two seconds, reappear, and then is solved... just an observation. I did turn most every graphic setting to high, left textures to high not original, grass road etc on, land detail high, shadows high, and wierd but the game seems to play better graphically then when turning things down. Amount of buildings is high, not very high, building detail set to high as well, or very high, have to check.

[Mattias]

Re missing gunsight graphics in the Me109, very strange, but flew 5 seperate missions, single player quick mission, bomber intercept over calais, it seems this happens (and some graphic stutters upon shooting up a Blenheim) only when Im playing an later 109E with 17 mm mgs, and 20mm cannons, when I play an early me109 with only the 17mgs and no 20mm cannones, the graphics seem fine, no stutters and no missing recticle. In any event, the missing gunsight only happens once, but will freeze one to two seconds, reappear, and then is solved... just an observation. I did turn most every graphic setting to high, left textures to high not original, grass road etc on, land detail high, shadows high, and wierd but the game seems to play better graphically then when turning things down. Amount of buildings is high, not very high, building detail set to high as well, or very high, have to check.

:salute:

This is a strange bug indeed and I remember getting it sometimes even back in the vanilla/stock Clod days.

Most of the optimizations we made have been with high settings in mind, so even though I agree it's a bit weird selecting a higher setting actually do increase FPS on some systems :D

[312_Jura]

The new patch hasn't changed anything about this unfortunately.. :(

[priller26]

Well, I'm sure it will be dealt with in the future. Overall, I think the new patch is outstanding. It has certainly brought me back into the game and I've been playing it at least 4 to 5 hours a day since it's release. All but two settings are set to the highest possible, buildings are not got unlimited and are at high, and textures are at high not original. I am getting outstanding frame rates bolstering dogfights and flying low over land, much much better than before.

[mattius]

I have an MSI GT70 0NE. Has ANYONE Found an answer to this problem yet????? :smash:

[nightmare]

I re-downloaded, but I doubt that corruption is the issue, or I wouldn't see other people withe the same issue, in similar conditions.



They started showing up in the 600-series cards (NVidia, no idea about ATI). SLI laptops from what I gather are incredibly finicky, wouldn't go near one with a ten foot pole. :D



Done it, twice, with and without the mod.

In any case I seem to have found at least a partial fix by switching the renderer from Direct3D 10.0 to 10.1 or 11.0. Doing so gave me a few visual artifacts and a frame rate drop (probably because now LOD-appropriate models and textures are being loaded) but at least the game's playable. I can live with it for the most part, but the nights look really weird, oversaturated, overbloomed. Applying the patch seems to aggravate it:

3902

I had exactly the same problem with the target reticle and low resolution, which seemed to only be fixable by your fix of changing the renderer to Direct3D 10.1 in Conf.ini in the Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover - MOD folder. But this was unstable for me, as after a few missions, the game started crashing to desktop during the loading screen at the start of a mission. I disabled Vsync and so far so good... otherwise the only way to recover was to delete the Conf.ini file... which required setting up the joystick again.

Thankyou Leandro, after many hours of trying to fix this annoying problem, yours was the only one that led in the right direction.

Not sure if every thing is good yet but so far so good :)

[Kling]

This happens almost only with people who have laptops with integrated videocards. It seems connected to the Mseries of videocards... God knows why! :/
I have seen it over and over again. 99% of the time that is the issue.

[nightmare]

This happens almost only with people who have laptops with integrated videocards. It seems connected to the Mseries of videocards... God knows why! :/
I have seen it over and over again. 99% of the time that is the issue.

Yep, you,re right, I have a laptop with a Nvidea videocard, and to those of us who have them, I think I may have stumbled on a solution to this problem.

I wish to report that I've been paying quite a few missions today with no crashes to desktop, and my frame rate seems to be much improved with very good resolution. Changing the Renderer to Direct3d 10.1 fixed the blurries and disabling the Vsync has stabilized the system and improved performance.... There is very little info out there about this problem.

I'm still getting a strange graphical line when over the ocean. It appears in the simulation more than 10 miles away and looks like a big pier in the distance, and appears to maintain that distance in a circle around the plane. If that's the worst graphics glitch, I can live with that.

[Combat Wombat]

"I'm still getting a strange graphical line when over the ocean. It appears in the simulation more than 10 miles away and looks like a big pier in the distance, and appears to maintain that distance in a circle around the plane. If that's the worst graphics glitch, I can live with that."

I thought that was just an AMD problem but apparently not ! No it's a known issue I managed to improve mine with a driver update.

[SammZ]

Hello Everyone !

Im new here, stumbled across this topic, I HAVE a fix.

I fixed this problem by entering the BIOS of my laptop,you can look up how to do this on Windows 8 anywhere on the internet.

In This BIOS you have to change the RAM used by your integrated graphics, mine went from 64mb to 512mb (maximum).
Warning : DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE OF !

After that, a reboot, and Clod worked a treat.
Hope this works for you all,

Salute,
SammZ

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hello Everyone !

Im new here, stumbled across this topic, I HAVE a fix.

I fixed this problem by entering the BIOS of my laptop,you can look up how to do this on Windows 8 anywhere on the internet.

In This BIOS you have to change the RAM used by your integrated graphics, mine went from 64mb to 512mb (maximum).
Warning : DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE OF !

After that, a reboot, and Clod worked a treat.
Hope this works for you all,

Salute,
SammZ

Thanks for posting this, SammZ. And welcome to the forum! :salute:

:)

[SammZ]

Thanks for posting this, SammZ. And welcome to the forum! :salute:

:)

My Pleasure, thanks for the welcome. :salute:

[rowns]

Hello Everyone !

Im new here, stumbled across this topic, I HAVE a fix.

I fixed this problem by entering the BIOS of my laptop,you can look up how to do this on Windows 8 anywhere on the internet.

In This BIOS you have to change the RAM used by your integrated graphics, mine went from 64mb to 512mb (maximum).
Warning : DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE OF !

After that, a reboot, and Clod worked a treat.
Hope this works for you all,

Salute,
SammZ

Can someone confirm that this works? I have the same problem, blurry crosshair. I have a laptop with windows 7 but I have no idea how to do this.

[Stormrider]

@ Rowns,
if your laptop has a graphiccard which used shared memory this could maybe help.But if your laptop has a seperate graphiccard is has his own ram and cannot be changed.What type of laptop is it what you have?

[rowns]

"@ Rowns,
if your laptop has a graphiccard which used shared memory this could maybe help.But if your laptop has a seperate graphiccard is has his own ram and cannot be changed.What type of laptop is it what you have?"

I have mac book pro with windows 7 on it. I have a intel HD 4000 graphic card. But just because I have a mac I can't get in the bios of windows 7. So I can't fix this problem.

[Mysticpuma]

Does post number 16 in the following thread help?

http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/increase-shared-vram-on-macbook-pro-running-windows.1434745/

[rowns]

Sad enough it doesn't I also found that, but it didn't work.

Edit: Maybe the last post of that link you gave can help me, I think I have older driver versions on my pc.

[Mysticpuma]

Worth a try. Please keep us informed :)

[rowns]

Worth a try. Please keep us informed :)

I will :)

[rowns]

I will :)

Sad enought it didn't work, so I can't fly the BF109's or spits or fly att all.

[M_Klimek]

Sorry for bringing out older thread but...

I thought it was just my graphics with playing on laptop, I learned to live with smudged/blurry gun sight reticle/crosshairs.

Last night however I ventured onto another empty server to try flying other planes... Jumped in a G50, gunsight illumination was crisp and clear. Then jumped in a Stuka, same again, crisp and clear. So I jumped back into Spitty then Hurricane and those two I had blurry/smudged gunsight reticle.

This is annoying me now as I learnt to live with it but if it works ok on some planes why doesn't it work ok on all of them for me.

Can't be graphics issue because it would be the same on all of them.

I would appreciate it if someone would share a definite solution for this as it must be common.

I did all the installations as prescribed and didn't mess about with any config files. I cleared cache, that does not fix it. Thanks.

[rowns]

Sorry for bringing out older thread but...

I thought it was just my graphics with playing on laptop, I learned to live with smudged/blurry gun sight reticle/crosshairs.

Last night however I ventured onto another empty server to try flying other planes... Jumped in a G50, gunsight illumination was crisp and clear. Then jumped in a Stuka, same again, crisp and clear. So I jumped back into Spitty then Hurricane and those two I had blurry/smudged gunsight reticle.

This is annoying me now as I learnt to live with it but if it works ok on some planes why doesn't it work ok on all of them for me.

Can't be graphics issue because it would be the same on all of them.

I would appreciate it if someone would share a definite solution for this as it must be common.

I did all the installations as prescribed and didn't mess about with any config files. I cleared cache, that does not fix it. Thanks.

I have to try that, if that really works, then the they can maybe fix this problem.

Edit: I did try it and he has right. The gunsight of the G50 works.

Edit2: Also I just found out(it took me only 1 month or so) that I did press primary illumination instead of gun illumination :doh: So instead of not having a crosshair I have a blurry gunsight.

[DoubleStandards]

Edit2: Also I just found out(it took me only 1 month or so) that I did press primary illumination instead of gun illumination :doh: So instead of not having a crosshair I have a blurry gunsight.

Whoever was helping you out should put his joystick away. :recon:

DS

[mattius]

Nobody seems to get to the point & discover why the mobile chipsets like the 680m cause this issue???? Is there a fix???

[M_Klimek]

So, I've been trying various things and my gunsight is still blurry in Spits and Hurricanes...

I tried to adjust Renderer in config.ini but I put "D3D10_1" as suggested above in this thread and my game would not launch at all.

at the moment Renderer is set as standard as "D3D10_0"...

Seems this is a common issue with some people and yet no one knows a definite fix

[M_Klimek]

Since no one has been replying to this with any viable solutions I've been checking this further...

So on various servers the intensity of the blur is different... weird.

For example on big campaign servers the blur is far more noticeable then on smaller ones, eg. Dogfighting small map server. My gunsight reticle was perfect when training last night in one on one dogfights on private lobby with couple 306 chaps.

Still non the wiser why this is, my only explanation, I don't have the technical knowledge, problem with available memory? I have 16gb RAM though.

[ATAG_Colander]

problem with available memory? I have 16gb RAM though.

Chances are that it is.
16GB is the CPU ram, you would need 1.5GB in the video card (GPU) ram.

[Kling]

The problem is more that people run the game on laptops that are not meant to be running games that require a heavy graphic load.

[M_Klimek]

The problem is more that people run the game on laptops that are not meant to be running games that require a heavy graphic load.

I respect your view... I do run it on a laptop... However, the quality of the gun sight reticle is inconsistent across the servers and across the airplane models. If laptop vs desktop was the only reason, would it not be consistently bad quality?

If someone with the technical know how can explain how it works it would be cool... I'm not asking for an essay ;-)

[ATAG_Colander]

I respect your view... I do run it on a laptop... However, the quality of the gun sight reticle is inconsistent across the servers and across the airplane models. If laptop vs desktop was the only reason, would it not be consistently bad quality?

If someone with the technical know how can explain how it works it would be cool... I'm not asking for an essay ;-)

Ok as simple as I can...
Big map = more textures
Some plane cockpits = more textures
more textures = more GPU memory needed
more GPU memory needed = lower end cards can't handle it
laptops = lower end cards.

[Kling]

I respect your view... I do run it on a laptop... However, the quality of the gun sight reticle is inconsistent across the servers and across the airplane models. If laptop vs desktop was the only reason, would it not be consistently bad quality?

If someone with the technical know how can explain how it works it would be cool... I'm not asking for an essay ;-)

For some reason Clod never worked with the integrated videocard of a laptops. The M series of videocard for some reason have all these issues.:(

[SammZ]

Also, making the game a profile in the Nvidia Control Panel, put it on nvidia high performance card and battery setting maximal perfomance might help.
Taking FXAA off , CUDA all , single screen mode (sorry my panel is in French) .

[rowns]

Ok as simple as I can...
Big map = more textures
Some plane cockpits = more textures
more textures = more GPU memory needed
more GPU memory needed = lower end cards can't handle it
laptops = lower end cards.

And the crosshair problem happend after installing patch 4.0, probably something to do with that.

[spqr2014]

Anyone sorted out the missing crosshairs yet? Its such a shame because it is now am excellent simulation. thanks to A.T.A.G`s expert attention.
Playing on WIN 10 with no other problems. All graphics are first class.
Cheers.

[Baaz]

Anyone sorted out the missing crosshairs yet? Its such a shame because it is now am excellent simulation. thanks to A.T.A.G`s expert attention.
Playing on WIN 10 with no other problems. All graphics are first class.
Cheers.
When you start, the gunsight illumination is "OFF" by default. You have to turn it "ON" manually. Turn the gunsight illumination on to make the "crosshairs" appear. Look for it in the options>Controls>General....The default key is ctrl+L I think.

[ATAG_Freya]

Anyone sorted out the missing crosshairs yet? Its such a shame because it is now am excellent simulation. thanks to A.T.A.G`s expert attention.
Playing on WIN 10 with no other problems. All graphics are first class.
Cheers.

TEAM FUSION's expert attention, actually. They are the guys doing the work, ATAG provides forums and servers. (Some ATAG members are also TF members too, along with others from all corners of the community here)

Separate entities, common goals..

Long live Cliffs of Dover!

:salute: