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Archie
Sep-10-2013, 12:14
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/minichart.png (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/)
Click on it for an up to date figure!

Old_Canuck
Sep-10-2013, 13:09
Interesting, if one holds a ruler up to the line on the full sized graph it shows us reaching the initial goal on September 19th.

4187

Roblex
Sep-10-2013, 15:04
Interesting, if one holds a ruler up to the line on the full sized graph it shows us reaching the initial goal on September 19th.

4187

OTOH, if you extend the curve it never reaches the goal :-(

Old_Canuck
Sep-10-2013, 15:44
OTOH, if you extend the curve it never reaches the goal :-(

That seems right but the bar chart shows increasing amounts of funding for the three days previous to today so this could result in more of a straight line. The green curve will extend and meet the bottom curve at time of deadline but it's not inconceivable for both curves to rise exponentially. "All things are possible. Only believe." The bottom curve is the one showing over 250k projection which I'm hoping will accelerate over the next two paydays. What I'm really interested in watching for is the late reaction of enthusiasts with mega finances. People with a lot of money tend to watch for awhile before they jump into things.

Oersted
Sep-10-2013, 16:52
1,790 dollars are needed PER DAY for the kickstarter to succeed. That is really worrying for me.

See all the charts here:

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/

Archie
Sep-10-2013, 17:08
Well so far its working out well above that figure. The main thing is keeping the momentum up, and theres only so much we can do, a lot of it is down to Luthier.
If he announces a flyable B17 as an early goal tomorrow I hope that will cause a bit of a surge in funding.
If its getting close at the end of the funding period I think a lot of people will up their pledge, although unfortunately there is a bit of an 'anti' campaign going on in some quarters currently which is quite depressing when you think about it.

Chuck_Owl
Sep-10-2013, 20:03
Well so far its working out well above that figure. The main thing is keeping the momentum up, and theres only so much we can do, a lot of it is down to Luthier.
If he announces a flyable B17 as an early goal tomorrow I hope that will cause a bit of a surge in funding.
If its getting close at the end of the funding period I think a lot of people will up their pledge, although unfortunately there is a bit of an 'anti' campaign going on in some quarters currently which is quite depressing when you think about it.

Yeah. BoS forums and War Thunder forums are just attacking any DCS topic they can find...

Robusti
Sep-11-2013, 09:12
I am getting worried. The graph is leveling off as I had feared (and is usual for Kickstarters) and the initial support is short of what I would expect to see from other successful Kickstarter graphs. Don't forget to factor in that often some pledges are not collected or lowered just before the deadline. I hope he flight sim community is different from the rest and they will rebound near the end and no one will default or lower their pledge. Fingers crossed.

AKA_Recon
Sep-11-2013, 09:19
Yeah. BoS forums and War Thunder forums are just attacking any DCS topic they can find...

I put some money toward BoS prior to even knowing DCS announcement. No offense to those guys, but I probably would have contributed that money instead to DCS (I ended up contributing to both).

I do find it interesting that BoS was so quick to make these additional offerings if you bought it before Sept 1st, the day in which DCS was to be announced.

It's not that I don't think BoS will be worth getting, I want to support all of these, because the genre is a speciality small market - but I don't have much confidence that BoS will be on par with even Cliffs of Dover as far as 'simulation' goes.

I am wondering how much funding is lost though because people contributed to BoS thinking that was all there was coming down the pike and now are out of funds to give to DCS.

People are sometimes very short sighted - they are only looking at instant gratification, not realizing that these opportunities to build a good combat flight sim are rare.

I do wish some of the DCS devs would defend what happened with IL2:CloD - from my understanding, much of what happened was out of their control, but they take the fault for it.

These are just my observations.

SoW Reddog
Sep-11-2013, 09:41
Am I the only one looking at the required funds and thinking "actually, that's not that much"?? What I mean is, it only takes one rich enthusiast and it could be fully funded. Weirder things have happened. Peter Jackson's spent lots of money on his "hobbies", even having a wargaming miniature company sculpt and cast bespoke figures for him , then there's his WW1 planes. All it takes is a single rich person who's *thing* is flight sims and it's a done deal. We shall see. I still need to understand whether DCS is actually something I'm interested in. I like the clickable cockpit idea, but the fact is once you're flying how often do you actually use the mouse? Everything's mapped to the joystick anyway.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Sep-11-2013, 10:01
Am I the only one looking at the required funds and thinking "actually, that's not that much"?? .

My thoughts exactly.. what the hell can you get for £100,000 these days?

That's two or three mid-level staff for a year (without accommodation or infrastructure either)... that's it.

jjohnson241
Sep-11-2013, 10:01
1,790 dollars are needed PER DAY for the kickstarter to succeed. That is really worrying for me.

See all the charts here:

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/

Assuming a $40 contribution, that means 45 folks a day for the remainder of the funding drive. Looking at how the participation has dropped after the first 6 days, I think 45 contributions a day at this point is a stretch. BTW, we can ignore the averages and trends that Kickstarter is projecting at this point. All are skewed by the bubble in the first 6 days.
Obviously that bubble is long gone and I don't believe that another "bubble" is out there (perhaps the B-17 but not at the numbers we've seen in the first 6 days).
Bummer.. very concerned.

AKA_Recon
Sep-11-2013, 10:10
Am I the only one looking at the required funds and thinking "actually, that's not that much"?? What I mean is, it only takes one rich enthusiast and it could be fully funded. Weirder things have happened. Peter Jackson's spent lots of money on his "hobbies", even having a wargaming miniature company sculpt and cast bespoke figures for him , then there's his WW1 planes. All it takes is a single rich person who's *thing* is flight sims and it's a done deal. We shall see. I still need to understand whether DCS is actually something I'm interested in. I like the clickable cockpit idea, but the fact is once you're flying how often do you actually use the mouse? Everything's mapped to the joystick anyway.

I have an understanding there is internal funding already, that this funding they are seeking is both to provide the opportunity to use to get more features, etc... Also, I think some of this is a test of our community, people always talk about how they would pay 'x' amount to get a great sim. Well, here is the put your money where your mouth is opportunity.

Here is my concern and understanding of the kickstarter : if they don't reach it, nothing happens? Like if you reached, let's say $75-80k, that means no project ? If they said internally, even if we get $80k, we will try to build this and then change the model a bit, but at this point, you'd have to start all over and do another fund raising ? Similar maybe to BoS saying, contributing now will mean more down the road - but it wasn't a kickstarter approach.

I'm sure this is happening too - but I would think they would get support from investors, such as companies like Saitek, CH, NaturalPoint, etc.. who you would think want flight simming to grow as they make their money from us!

You think NaturalPoint would throw $10k at this ? I would think so - maybe they get their logo on the product start screen. Maybe that is happening and we don't know it - but if not - it should!!!

Archie
Sep-11-2013, 10:19
Recon I too see this as a bit of a 'test' of the state of the (so called) community. Reaching the goal means that people are still interested in a high def flight sim. As to Naturalpoint, it might be worth a punt, but as a certain owner of another game company used to work for them I'm not so sure how that would turn out! Oculus Rift is the future, I would be looking to them, and getting it integrated into DCS.
I'm quite impressed by the graph so far, but am disappointed its not higher, or even through the 100k already. If I was a rich investor I would push it through the 100k now, as I can see th potential, not just for us as simmers, but in payback long term.
There is a concerted effort in some quarters to discredit the project though, and I will bet that is having an effect, no matter how small.

SoW Reddog
Sep-11-2013, 10:25
I wasn't looking at it from the "100k isn't much money and what are they going to get for it" point of view, more the "100k isn't much money for some rich bugger to throw at something he wants". I expect that the kickstarter is indeed a way of raising some initial funding to speed the process along, and that without it we will still see something released down the line, but how much, and when? That's the big question.

Archie
Sep-11-2013, 10:31
Whats in my head currently is 'are there REALLY only 850 people in the whole world interested in a DCS level WW2 sim' :banghead:

Robusti
Sep-11-2013, 10:32
So far the highest backer is $1000 and there are only 5 of them. So, the companies should, but they haven't. Yet.

We need 800-1000 more backers not one rich guy. One rich guy does not tell the developers there is a strong community out there. It tells them he got them over the hump, but there is no money to be made afterwards.

Old_Canuck
Sep-11-2013, 10:36
For many people in the world the middle of the month is payday. Let's see what happens over the weekend.

Archie
Sep-11-2013, 10:42
I can bet some people don't realise the money does not come out of your account until the end of the kickstarter.

Robusti
Sep-11-2013, 11:59
I can bet some people don't realise the money does not come out of your account until the end of the kickstarter.

That's true, but the downside to that fact is.... I have seen a $10,000 pledge pulled hours before the deadline. For example, I could pledge $1,000,000 dollars right now and change it to $1 on the 4th. I have also seen a Kickstarter go over by a hundred thousand bucks and nearly fail to meet the goal at the deadline. Or the opposite could happen. Not saying any of this will happen, but its as clear as mud until the 5th. You just never know. 800 more backers is really what is needed.

4212

Oersted
Sep-11-2013, 16:48
It is obvious that there are many more than 850 hi-fi WWII combat flight sim fans in the world. So, consequently, the issue is to SPREAD THE WORD and make people aware of this project. The lack of support is exclusively due to lack of knowledge of this project, I am convinced about that.

Royraiden
Sep-11-2013, 17:00
It is obvious that there are many more than 850 hi-fi WWII combat flight sim fans in the world. So, consequently, the issue is to SPREAD THE WORD and make people aware of this project. The lack of support is exclusively due to lack of knowledge of this project, I am convinced about that.

I completely agree with that statement, Im spreading the word as much as I can.

Roblex
Sep-11-2013, 17:26
I was following the project for the 'Omni' which is a large device, looks like half a dalek, that allows you to run around in FPS games. They only wanted £150,000 and they got £1,1 million! There must be a hell of a lot of FPS players with money, and space , to spare.

jjohnson241
Sep-11-2013, 18:17
I completely agree with that statement, Im spreading the word as much as I can.

Here's a quote from the SIMHQ forum:
"Interesting times...

Its a ambitious project, announced with Luthier's usual style

If he can pull it off then it should be very good, though after watching the P51 start up vid im not sure im that hardcore...lol.

We will see, deff going to wait before putting any money into it."

I agree that there are a great many more than 850 WWII flight simmers but I feel that the attitude displayed in the post above is typical and in far more heads than we'd like to believe at this point. Additionally, the damage done to the genre by the Cliffs of Dover fiasco can't be overestimated, IMO.
Notifying the masses is a problem... where else does RRG "advertise"? I suppose that they could leverage DCS' relationship with Steam and get an advertisment up on Steam News. The DCS WW2 story is already up on all the major WW2 flight sim forums. I don't know where othwise they can go to spread the word.

Oersted
Sep-12-2013, 18:00
I'd say they should get the word out in all the non-English speaking countries. Is there even a translated verIon of the kickstarter page? There are huge numbers of Russian, German, Italian, French, Spanish fans of il-2, etc... Many of them probably don't even know about this...

jjohnson241
Sep-12-2013, 19:33
I'd say they should get the word out in all the non-English speaking countries. Is there even a translated verIon of the kickstarter page? There are huge numbers of Russian, German, Italian, French, Spanish fans of il-2, etc... Many of them probably don't even know about this...

Well the DCS forum alone has over 45,000 registered members and includes sub-forums in the languages you mention in your post. I suppose coverage may be a problem at this point but I think the primary reasons that Kickstarter isn't knocking at the door of the stretch goals is the relatively low level of interest in a "high fidelity" WW2 sim and the CloD damage done resulting in the "I'll wait before I put any money in" atttude. I see as of today, they're $38K short of their threshold goal. They may make the $100K but anything beyone that, no way unless a miracle happens.

Roblex
Sep-13-2013, 02:39
I agree that at this point it is looking like we will be lucky to reach 100K and no chance at all of hitting stretch goals. Of course it is possible that a big backer is watching the progress and will jump in when he is happy that there is enough interest in the game; he may be saying 'I wont do anything unless the public invest 100K first'

Now the question is 'What happens if it does not reach its minimum target?' Do they give up? Do they re-launch it with a lower target and lower expectations?

Archie
Sep-13-2013, 03:15
No it will be made anyway, it just won't be as good.

airmalik
Sep-13-2013, 06:50
I suppose coverage may be a problem at this point but I think the primary reasons that Kickstarter isn't knocking at the door of the stretch goals is the relatively low level of interest in a "high fidelity" WW2 sim

I have a feeling that the hard core fans are more vocal but dwarfed by the numbers of more casual simmers. I'm a pilot IRL but I care more as much for the game aspect as for the sim and from what I've read on this kickstarter, there isn't much game in this sim.

Royraiden
Sep-13-2013, 07:43
It has started to pick up a good pace now.

Archie
Sep-13-2013, 08:04
Yes its made a decent amount today already!

PFT_Endy
Sep-13-2013, 08:57
I have a feeling that the hard core fans are more vocal but dwarfed by the numbers of more casual simmers. I'm a pilot IRL but I care more as much for the game aspect as for the sim and from what I've read on this kickstarter, there isn't much game in this sim.

That's not really true. You will get as much game as there currently is in DCS, which is singleplayer campaigns, multiplayer capability and an excellent mission editor with A LOT of options (from units to complicated scripts and what have you) and pretty easy to use once you get to know it. It's capable of providing solo, coop and team vs team experience and with the map and units available for your use the possibilities are pretty awesome.

In addition to that you get the highest fidelity a/c currently in any combat sim on the market. So it's a game and with fleshed out game aspects, but one with ery realistic planes in it.

Robusti
Sep-13-2013, 12:10
Bar Graphs shows new backers/day dropping off significantly and pledge money/day rising.

56RAF_klem
Sep-13-2013, 15:03
Bar Graphs shows new backers/day dropping off significantly and pledge money/day rising. It seems the core backers are doubling down. Will they continue to double down all the way to the end or will 800 more backers appear?

Icarus, for someone as negative as you I'm surprised you flew so close to the sun. Have another go while we all try to be positive.

Robusti
Sep-13-2013, 15:56
Icarus, for someone as negative as you I'm surprised you flew so close to the sun. Have another go while we all try to be positive.

Sorry will only rah rah from now on.:thumbsup:

56RAF_klem
Sep-13-2013, 16:20
Negative? I asked a question. I have doubled down on my pledge and I am hoping that new backers come along. It looks doable, just not sure which way it will go.

I wasn't aware we were not allowed to state facts and ask questions.
Sorry will only rah rah from now on.:thumbsup:

Sorry, did I misunderstand you? You say you "doubled down" on your pledge, did you mean you increased ('upped') your pledge?

Robusti
Sep-13-2013, 16:26
$70,000!!!!

Three weeks to go, $1200/day should do it.

Robusti
Sep-13-2013, 16:27
Sorry, did I misunderstand you? You say you "doubled down" on your pledge, did you mean you increased ('upped') your pledge?

I doubled it. Double down means increased resolve. Double ones efforts.

BTW Klem, I have had nothing but good things to say about TF. Fantastic work.

Stig1207
Sep-13-2013, 17:35
I suppose coverage may be a problem at this point but I think the primary reasons that Kickstarter isn't knocking at the door of the stretch goals is the relatively low level of interest in a "high fidelity" WW2 sim and the CloD damage done resulting in the "I'll wait before I put any money in" atttude.


Also, the last several years players have been able to download vast amounts of content to their sims- planes, maps, missions, etc. provided free by community modders,
mission and map-makers and so forth, and it's great but it might also have spoilt a lot of people. Having to pay for stuff may have become untrendy.

56RAF_klem
Sep-13-2013, 18:53
I doubled it. Double down means increased resolve. Double ones efforts.

BTW Klem, I have had nothing but good things to say about TF. Fantastic work.

Ah, a world separated by a common language :)

btw I am only a very small part of TF, some of the guys are huge by comparison.

jjohnson241
Sep-13-2013, 19:03
Well that's true regarding the "freebies", including what TF is doing for CloD.
Those that are flying DCS World are used to paying for content. I've pre-purchased BOS which will largely follow the ROF pay for content model. I don't mind that model really because IMO it offers the choice of buying what interests you.
I see that the Kickstarter donations are now $70K plus for RRG, probably due primarily to previous donors upping their contribution given the revised awards announced yesterday. I think they're going to top out somewhere around $125K, obviously missing stretch goal of $275K. That means they'll have our donations. The question then becomes what are they going to do with the funds they "bank"?

Dutch
Sep-13-2013, 19:15
some of the guys are huge by comparison.

Isn't there some sort of internet rule that prevents this line of conversation? Just wondering, really....

ATAG_Colander
Sep-13-2013, 19:18
He's just saying that he's 1 meter tall : )

Dutch
Sep-13-2013, 19:25
He's just saying that he's 1 meter tall : )

Ah! Thanks mate, got it now. :thumbsup:

Robusti
Sep-13-2013, 20:17
Only a few hours later and 1000 backers with over $71,000!

LG1.Klein
Sep-13-2013, 20:27
I haven't backed yet but I will. Recently I did a kickstarter for Camelot Unchained at $75, pre-order BoS at $89.99, bought Wargame:Airland Battle, and bought DCS P-51. Before I pledge any more money I need to get back into the good graces of the finance minister. It's hard to defend yourself when you've spent $165 dollars on games that don't even exist yet. So there are certainly more out there like me that ultimately will pledge but are just holding off because of recent expenditures. I really hope we make the 1 million mark as myself and my squad need the 410.

Royraiden
Sep-13-2013, 20:39
Almost $8k just today and most of that was before the update so we can even get more.I wonder if they can get a few sponsors so even if the stretch goals werent reached with the KS, most of the planes listed on them could get in the sim in the end.

56RAF_klem
Sep-14-2013, 03:04
He's just saying that he's 1 meter tall : )

Enough with the short jokes, I'm 5' 10". It was 5 ' 10.5 " when I had hair : )

Oersted
Sep-16-2013, 06:33
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/minichart.png (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/)

Uh-oh...

Royraiden
Sep-16-2013, 07:50
It was like that yesterday as well, lowest day so far Im afraid.

SoW Reddog
Sep-16-2013, 08:47
So people have "unpledged"? I've been thinking that given the likelihood of this barely reaching the 100k total given current levels, that a nefarious competitor could easily pledge to reach a target and then delete their pledge before the deadline. Is there anything that can be done to stop this? Does the process ensure you have funds to meet your pledge, what would happen if I for example pledged $10000 but only had a $1000 limit on my card?

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-16-2013, 09:07
There hasn't been any unpledging. It's gone up every day. This is typical in KS drives - there's always a lull in the middle. There's nothing stopping people from unpledging right at the death and it has happened to other KS projects where they've been left scrambling as somebody who pledged a good chunk suddenly backing out or didn't actually have the funds. Unfortunately there's nothing that can be done about this. That's why I think Ilya needs to put in a $150k stretch goal that encourages people to leave in their funds and aim towards. Yes there could be a few nefarious pledges in there from disgruntled CloD owners but so long as we get a bit past $100k they shouldn't be able to seriously impact.

SoW Reddog
Sep-16-2013, 10:36
There hasn't been any unpledging.

BUT


Only a few hours later and 1000 backers with over $71,000!

And the graph above shows $57k??

Where am I going wrong? looks like 14k has disappeared?

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-16-2013, 11:06
I think you need to empty your internet cache. We're at $79,866 currently with 1114 backers.

Robusti
Sep-16-2013, 12:04
BUT



And the graph above shows $57k??

Where am I going wrong? looks like 14k has disappeared?

$80,258

1121 backers.


No there is nothing to stop people from "managing" their pledges. Its part of the Kickstarter. You can change it up or down at any time before the deadline. Including seconds before the deadline, like bids on eBay.

I have stated before, it is normal for kickstarters to start out strong and then level off. At the end there is either a spike up or down. I have seen some projects fail at the last minute after being dramatically over budget and visa versa. This is following the trend I expected....so far. The last few days will tell the tale. Its as clear as mud until October 5th.

I'm guessing it will make it by a narrow margin........but my guess is as good as anyone else's and is only a guess.

kopperdrake
Sep-16-2013, 12:09
He's just saying that he's 1 meter tall : )

1 meter tall in man-speak roughly equates to 75cm in reality.

"It were this big, really, you should've seen it. Whopper! Threw it back though - didn't want to depress you."

Old_Canuck
Sep-16-2013, 12:19
$80,258

1121 backers.

No there is nothing to stop people from "managing" their pledges. Its part of the Kickstarter. You can change it up or down at any time before the deadline. Including seconds before the deadline, like bids on eBay.

I have stated before, it is normal for kickstarters to start out strong and then level off. At the end there is either a spike up or down. I have seen some projects fail at the last minute after being dramatically over budget and visa versa. This is following the trend I expected....so far. The last few days will tell the tale. Its as clear as mud until October 5th.

I'm guessing it will make it by a narrow margin........but my guess is as good as anyone else's and is only a guess.

I have the same feeling about it, Icarus. At least we'll have a start on a DCS quality WWII sim.

Robusti
Sep-16-2013, 12:43
I have the same feeling about it, Icarus. At least we'll have a start on a DCS quality WWII sim.

I am very much looking forward to a D-Day WWII sim with EDGE.

ATAG_JTDawg
Sep-16-2013, 12:59
The money did go down . the day they swapped all the stuff around , That day an the next backers dropped out, hopefully they will come back , but if I remember right they lost about a tad over 4, 000, Maybe it was because of the planes changes, or confusion over all the new boxes, or maybe ? who knows

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-16-2013, 13:11
They added 70 new backers and $8k on the day they changed the tiers as some bought in for the first time and others managed their pledges (which might temporarily look like it was removed). Maybe some left but the running total of backers on KS matches the sum of the backers per day on Kicktraq. Not sure if that changes the historical days but they look pretty constant to me. I don't think there's been much of any turnover of pledgers leaving.

Archie
Sep-16-2013, 17:45
I think the 375k stretch goal is hurting them now. People think its unattainable, so why bother! A 150k goal (South Coast England?) might encourage some people.If only Luthier would be a bit more proactive, he is not pushing enough IMO. He should be posting at the kickstarter page pretty much every day, answering questions and trying to talk the project up. One video/update a week isn't going to cut it, and I will be very happy just to see the 100k figure passed.

jjohnson241
Sep-16-2013, 20:14
IMO, $375K was never attainable and that should be obvious now. I understand the notion that more frequent involvement from Luthier may mean additional KS$$ but realistically, what more can he contribute beyond what's been offered to "talk it up"? I'm reminded that the RRG team are primarily engineers and software developers. Their core competencies do not include business management and marketing.
Again IMO, what's been obviously missing to date is any overt support from DCS. I find that strange, particularly since DCS (apparently) has a funding stake in the success of DCS WW2.
I don't think that the addition of a $150K stretch goal is going to stimulate a significant increase in contributions. I do think they'll make the $100K but only after some nail biting.
What they have to do is develop a quality sim, on-time and without significant issues at launch. Only then will they see an increase in a revenue stream and they can then move forward to the extent that revenue supports continued development. They have stiff competetion from 777 Studios for the WW2 sim gaming dollar. They also have the stigma of CloD to overcome in the marketplace.

Skoshi_Tiger
Sep-17-2013, 09:13
They also have the stigma of CloD to overcome in the marketplace.

I always find it amazing how different people can look at the same thing and have completely the opposite reaction to it.

The ONLY reason I am supporting DCS:WWII 1944 is because of what Oleg and Luthier created when they made Cliffs of Dover. It took real guts to move on from the original IL2 engine that had 10+ years of success and try to lift the bar higher. They've shown dedication to the genre and the desire to push forward to even greater heights.

This they did and more.

Compared to Cliffs of Dover, every other flight sim game available either looked like shit or had issues with either physics or flight models or immersion or a combination of the same . While A very vocal minority bagged the sim and waged a vindictive personal assault against the developers, I sat back and thought to myself surely these guys are not running the same game as I am!

I know this is only my personal opinion, but I see the results that Team Fusion has obtained (through very hard work and effort by the whole team - these stars are, after all, manipulating the binary files of the game and look what they have accomplished!) and realize that the underlying sim couldn't have been that bad in the first place.

My support for the kickstarter is based solely on the shown track record of the developers.

$81,000+ Looking good to make the goal!

Royraiden
Sep-17-2013, 09:24
There has to be another video/update before the Kickstarter comes to an end.The last update from Luthier brought at least $8k in just one day but after that the highest has been around $2k and slowly moving to $1k per day.

Robusti
Sep-17-2013, 09:53
I always find it amazing how different people can look at the same thing and have completely the opposite reaction to it.

The ONLY reason I am supporting DCS:WWII 1944 is because of what Oleg and Luthier created when they made Cliffs of Dover. It took real guts to move on from the original IL2 engine that had 10+ years of success and try to lift the bar higher. They've shown dedication to the genre and the desire to push forward to even greater heights.

This they did and more.

Compared to Cliffs of Dover, every other flight sim game available either looked like shit or had issues with either physics or flight models or immersion or a combination of the same . While A very vocal minority bagged the sim and waged a vindictive personal assault against the developers, I sat back and thought to myself surely these guys are not running the same game as I am!

I know this is only my personal opinion, but I see the results that Team Fusion has obtained (through very hard work and effort by the whole team - these stars are, after all, manipulating the binary files of the game and look what they have accomplished!) and realize that the underlying sim couldn't have been that bad in the first place.

My support for the kickstarter is based solely on the shown track record of the developers.

$81,000+ Looking good to make the goal!

I agree. 100%

1C and Ubisoft forced the devs to released an unfinished mess. Then the devs left and 1C was unable to fix it properly and dumped it. TF has done an amazing job finishing it and making the sim what it should have been at release and they are not even done yet! TF is doing an awesome job.

My support of the kickstarter too is based on the devs excellent work on Il-2 series as well as DCS's track record for quality. However, that is the reality, not the perception for many, thanks to the CoD release debacle. That perception is undoubtedly hurting the kickstarter. An exciting, well made alpha/beta product would silence that misplaced bad perception once and for all.

$82,000+ The goal is doable and very necessary to combat that bad perception.

Robusti
Sep-17-2013, 10:04
There has to be another video/update before the Kickstarter comes to an end.The last update from Luthier brought at least $8k in just one day but after that the highest has been around $2k and slowly moving to $1k per day.

A few complaints at ED forum he is not doing enough to stimulate interest. More interaction from Luthier might help, but its hard to make inspiring videos of a product that doesn't exist. No?

BlueHeron
Sep-17-2013, 10:18
+1 Icaras and Skoshi,

The moment I heard Ilya and Oleg were doing another project, my wallet cried out in terror! CloD is currently everything I dreamed it would be. My only gripe is not having more time to play it. :thumbsup:

jjohnson241
Sep-17-2013, 10:46
I agree. 100%

1C and Ubisoft forced the devs to released an unfinished mess. Then the devs left and 1C was unable to fix it properly and dumped it. TF has done an amazing job finishing it and making the sim what it should have been at release and they are not even done yet! TF is doing an awesome job.

My support of the kickstarter too is based on the devs excellent work on Il-2 series as well as DCS's track record for quality. However, that is the reality, not the perception for many, thanks to the CoD release debacle. That perception is undoubtedly hurting the kickstarter. An exciting, well made alpha/beta product would silence that misplaced bad perception once and for all.

$82,000+ The goal is doable and very necessary to combat that bad perception.

TF has worked and continues to work miracles with CloD. My point is and continues to be that the stigma that resulted from the CloD release debacle is real and is hurting the RRG KS effort, an observation that you apparently agree with. Why that is and who/what caused the stigma is academic at this point. It's real. And yes, a quality and timely RRG product would go a long way to eliminate the stigma.

1lokos
Sep-17-2013, 10:51
I always find it amazing how different people can look at the same thing and have completely the opposite reaction to it.

The ONLY reason I am supporting DCS:WWII 1944 is because of what Oleg and Luthier created when they made Cliffs of Dover. ...



Well say! :thumbsup:


While A very vocal minority bagged the sim and waged a vindictive personal assault against the developers...

One these, in "Bananasdrama" admitted never try the game (CloD) itself...

Sokol1

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-17-2013, 11:06
I always find it amazing how different people can look at the same thing and have completely the opposite reaction to it.

The ONLY reason I am supporting DCS:WWII 1944 is because of what Oleg and Luthier created when they made Cliffs of Dover. It took real guts to move on from the original IL2 engine that had 10+ years of success and try to lift the bar higher. They've shown dedication to the genre and the desire to push forward to even greater heights.

This they did and more.

Compared to Cliffs of Dover, every other flight sim game available either looked like shit or had issues with either physics or flight models or immersion or a combination of the same . While A very vocal minority bagged the sim and waged a vindictive personal assault against the developers, I sat back and thought to myself surely these guys are not running the same game as I am!

I know this is only my personal opinion, but I see the results that Team Fusion has obtained (through very hard work and effort by the whole team - these stars are, after all, manipulating the binary files of the game and look what they have accomplished!) and realize that the underlying sim couldn't have been that bad in the first place.

My support for the kickstarter is based solely on the shown track record of the developers.

$81,000+ Looking good to make the goal!

Agree completely. I know Clod was released unfinished, but anyone that ever looked under the hood of it knew just how much incredible detail was there. My biggest thing with the way Ilya / Oleg did things was also about the fact you were buying a complete theater.

You know you'll have tons of different types of objects in the mission builder, a theater to fly around in, and an assortment of planes. They have always seemed to create a sandbox. There was never an gimmicks. You were never grinding to unlock stuff in your planes. You bought the game and had the same exact content everyone else did. That to me is always proper and what I wanted.

Sadly, so many developers are forcing players to "grind" or do things they really don't want to do to get some sort of achievement. Allowing you to buy bits of pieces of the plane etc., instead of just getting the entire thing is just wrong IMO. It's stuff like that I can not really stand. I like the no BS approach, and even though they may sell less initially because of it, they aren't trying to sell their game by dumping thousands of development dollars into CGI videos etc.

If it's like the original IL2, the sim sells itself because of word of mouth and being good.

ChiefRedCloud
Sep-17-2013, 11:44
Agree completely. I know Clod was released unfinished, but anyone that ever looked under the hood of it knew just how much incredible detail was there. My biggest thing with the way Ilya / Oleg did things was also about the fact you were buying a complete theater.

You know you'll have tons of different types of objects in the mission builder, a theater to fly around in, and an assortment of planes. They have always seemed to create a sandbox. There was never an gimmicks. You were never grinding to unlock stuff in your planes. You bought the game and had the same exact content everyone else did. That to me is always proper and what I wanted.

Sadly, so many developers are forcing players to "grind" or do things they really don't want to do to get some sort of achievement. Allowing you to buy bits of pieces of the plane etc., instead of just getting the entire thing is just wrong IMO. It's stuff like that I can not really stand. I like the no BS approach, and even though they may sell less initially because of it, they aren't trying to sell their game by dumping thousands of development dollars into CGI videos etc.

If it's like the original IL2, the sim sells itself because of word of mouth and being good.

I agree Bliss ... but to answer you comment about the "Grind" it's also called Console Mentality .... no offence to anyone who likes consoles (I have 3 thank very much) ..... and is nothing but a money hook with no end to it.

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-17-2013, 11:55
I agree Bliss ... but to answer you comment about the "Grind" it's also called Console Mentality .... no offence to anyone who likes consoles (I have 3 thank very much) ..... and is nothing but a money hook with no end to it.

I have a PS3 and an XBOX 360, neither of which have ever played a game :D

I use the PS3 to stream netflix, amazon, hulu +, and watch Bluerays through it. I use the XBOX to watch DVDs in the bedroom, and have a roku for the streaming bit.

I think I could get into the Wii as some of the games look fun, being able to actually move your body to play sports etc., but the other console games lost my interest after Madden 94 on the sega :D

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-17-2013, 18:19
A few complaints at ED forum he is not doing enough to stimulate interest. More interaction from Luthier might help, but its hard to make inspiring videos of a product that doesn't exist. No?

He still needs to be more visible. There should be some sort of official update every second day. There should be daily feedback in the KS feed and ED forums so questions get answered, interest stimulated, etc. This is no brainer stuff and for the life of me I cannot fathom why he's not doing it. I know they're a small team and he's got a ton of stuff on his plate but right now his job needs to revolve around KS if he wants that money. There is always one hour in a day to devote to dealing with answering questions and providing general feedback.

Azref
Sep-17-2013, 18:32
He still needs to be more visible. There should be some sort of official update every second day. There should be daily feedback in the KS feed and ED forums so questions get answered, interest stimulated, etc. This is no brainer stuff and for the life of me I cannot fathom why he's not doing it. I know they're a small team and he's got a ton of stuff on his plate but right now his job needs to revolve around KS if he wants that money. There is always one hour in a day to devote to dealing with answering questions and providing general feedback.

Completely agree with you Ron, When I look at other kick starters they have a lot more dev feedback and seem to answer questions daily. I'm starting to worry that DCS WWII isn't going to hit the 100k goal at this rate let alone the 375k goal or higher.

I've been posting links to the kickstarter everywhere I can think of but ATM it doesn't seem to be helping much, if they want to succeed the dev team need to be putting in some more effort publicising this IMO.

Mysticpuma
Sep-17-2013, 22:24
The main problem I am seeing at the moment is the one that led to so much frustration in the original banana forums.
As has been stated Ilya needs to be really proactive in this fund raising campaign and his lack of apparent communication is a legacy from the CloD days....who can forget the banjo!
It does surprise me that the communities are being asked to support the kickstarter (and of course we do), but the lack of interaction leaves me feeling a sense of déjà vu and that is not a good feeling to have before anything has been created or shown?
I do have high hopes for this idea, and hopefully with Eagle Dynamics and the Fighter Collection guarding quality control, there should be good communication, but I am.feeling uneasy with the lack of visibility again from Ilya and maybe it would be worth Oleg adding some more footage to the kickstarter.
This Friday I will upload an unofficial trailer asking for kickstarter backing for the DCS made using current software, but I contacted Ilya and said I'd be doing this.....and heard nothing :(

One more question. Why can't RRG get the kickstarter backing at $100,000, create the initial package, then once they prove they can do it, launch a new kickstarter for backing to get to the next goal? Just a suggestion.
Anyway, I live in hope, cheers, MP

Chuck_Owl
Sep-17-2013, 23:21
The main problem I am seeing at the moment is the one that led to so much frustration in the original banana forums.
As has been stated Ilya needs to be really proactive in this fund raising campaign and his lack of apparent communication is a legacy from the CloD days....who can forget the banjo!
It does surprise me that the communities are being asked to support the kickstarter (and of course we do), but the lack of interaction leaves me feeling a sense of déjà vu and that is not a good feeling to have before anything has been created or shown?
I do have high hopes for this idea, and hopefully with Eagle Dynamics and the Fighter Collection guarding quality control, there should be good communication, but I am.feeling uneasy with the lack of visibility again from Ilya and maybe it would be worth Oleg adding some more footage to the kickstarter.
This Friday I will upload an unofficial trailer asking for kickstarter backing for the DCS made using current software, but I contacted Ilya and said I'd be doing this.....and heard nothing :(

One more question. Why can't RRG get the kickstarter backing at $100,000, create the initial package, then once they prove they can do it, launch a new kickstarter for backing to get to the next goal? Just a suggestion.
Anyway, I live in hope, cheers, MP

I feel uneasy too, MP, and I don't like the direction things are taking right now.

Archie
Sep-18-2013, 02:20
I don't understand Ilya at all. Comes in with a fanfare, then, back to normal. I am really excited about this project, but currently I feel like we are more excited about it than he is. Yesterday was the worst day for the KS, just over $2000. A lot of people are pushing hard for this, making content and trying to advertise DCS WWII, but FFS Ilya, throw us a bone!
Another good video will hopefully bring another surge in pledges, and we should make it to 100k by the end, but we should have already passed that target a couple of days ago, and I think we would have if he had been a lot more active.

Old_Canuck
Sep-18-2013, 02:40
What if a group of behind-the-scenes backers are using Kickstarter as a market research experiment in order to measure how well we receive this project? Whether this is true or not, your efforts to promote the sim are not wasted. As Ilya said early on - this could be our last chance to see a benchmark quality WWII flight sim.

Chivas
Sep-18-2013, 02:53
Not sure why people think Ilya can magically show sim constant. The whole point of kickstarter is to help fund the content. One comes before the other. What has it been two weeks, and Ilya has made a quite a few posts, and videos. Not sure what else he can tell us, at some point its up to us to see the potential of a WW2 sim based on the DCS World game engine, EDGE graphic engine, and Flying Legends. I can see why Ilya has been quiet for the last few days, I'm sure their team is racking their brains, trying to figure out what they can say to sway more people, but I'm not sure what else can be done. I like Mysticpuma's idea, and I'm surprised Ilya hasn't responded to the idea, hopefully he has something up his sleeve, but I'll be surprised if there is anything. They can't promise anymore as they are likely only to have their own investments, and 100,000 kickstarter monies, which isn't enough to hire more people to create more promised content.

They should reach 100,000, but very unlikely they will go much higher. Now it will be up to the free demo to spur further sales, and see if there is enough interest for them to bother carrying on.

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-18-2013, 03:50
It's not necessarily that he has to be constantly showing new sim content but he should be making his general presence felt more. KS is as much about schmoozing with the public as it is showing off stacks of content. There's also been a fair bit of general confusion around pledge levels, free flyables, etc. and it's in his own interest to be seen to be handling these issues promptly. There should have been an ask the Dev questions section in the ED forum where he answered questions openly every day. That's the sort of interaction that builds customer confidence when there's not really much content to show at this stage which would lead to more people pledging and probably existing backers upping their pledges.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Sep-18-2013, 04:12
It's not necessarily that he has to be constantly showing new sim content but he should be making his general presence felt more.....

A cursory look at what the Star Citizen team are doing with their release should provide Ilya with the model....

It wouldn't take them 10 minutes to draft a weekly update, even if it's just a thank-you note, with a couple of bullets on what parts of the development they're working on that week.

56RAF_klem
Sep-18-2013, 04:16
It's not necessarily that he has to be constantly showing new sim content but he should be making his general presence felt more. KS is as much about schmoozing with the public as it is showing off stacks of content. There's also been a fair bit of general confusion around pledge levels, free flyables, etc. and it's in his own interest to be seen to be handling these issues promptly. There should have been an ask the Dev questions section in the ED forum where he answered questions openly every day. That's the sort of interaction that builds customer confidence when there's not really much content to show at this stage which would lead to more people pledging and probably existing backers upping their pledges.

Well, I don't think he has much more to say (can say much more) especially to the ED community who I think are buying in quite well. I don't know what he has done to widen the net by going to other sim websites although some don't like any kind of advertising, Toms Hardware games forum deleted my thread about DCS WWII. I guess its up to the backers to hit more websites and threads with our enthusiasm and get as much attention as possible, after all its our project too now. MPs video is a good idea.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-18-2013, 06:09
Luthier hasn't made one post on his own KS in almost 6 days, he hasn't updated the KS comments page since the 12th, i dont care what anyone says that is a very poor show and there is no excuse not to interact with the people pledging money even if there is nothing new to show.
Luthier could still be answering questions and showing some interest.

Though i cant say i didn't expect it to be this way.

Royraiden
Sep-18-2013, 06:52
Luthier hasn't made one post on his own KS in almost 6 days, he hasn't updated the KS comments page since the 12th, i dont care what anyone says that is a very poor show and there is no excuse not to interact with the people pledging money even if there is nothing new to show.
Luthier could still be answering questions and showing some interest.

Though i cant say i didn't expect it to be this way.

Maybe he is busy making the next update dont you think. He has been a one man show on this project, give him a break.

Archie
Sep-18-2013, 07:41
Well theres still time, I shall be very happy to see the 100k reached, and will be quite happy to buy the B17 sometime in the future!

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-18-2013, 07:51
Luthier hasn't made one post on his own KS in almost 6 days, he hasn't updated the KS comments page since the 12th, i dont care what anyone says that is a very poor show and there is no excuse not to interact with the people pledging money even if there is nothing new to show.
Luthier could still be answering questions and showing some interest.

Though i cant say i didn't expect it to be this way.

Ilya has always been this way though. He was never really the community liason. That was always Oleg. Even back in the old IL2 days Ilya only posted because Oleg was on vacation etc.. I would rather have more interaction from him as well. But, to me, it's not really unexpected. What I'm waiting for is some Oleg RusEnglish :D

But the project itself sounds pretty damn solid to me.

Mysticpuma
Sep-18-2013, 08:09
Without this turning into a banana thread, we all have our opinions about Ilya.
Reading through the whole thread it is obvious we are ALL excited about the prospect of a new WW2 combat sim. We are all hoping that a new generation of Flight Sim can take to the skies and with the fidelity and pedigree of those involved, realistically it should be a no-brainer that if they reach their funding target and go on to create this Sim, it will be stunning, especially with the quality control of the Fighter Collection and Eagle Dynamics.

My only concerns (not about funding) are the lack of community interaction by any of the teams involved.

I don't expect multiple videos or fancy presentations, but I can't get my head around the lack of interaction by anyone from the three founding groups?

If you look at the messages left on the Kickstarter, if you look at the many forum pages that are being written (not just here) by enthusiastic backers and potential backers, everyone of them has found just a 'few' minutes to write a few words.
Ilya asked the community to support him and spread the word. They have (and are) doing that.
So, respectfully, it is not beyond all realm of imagination, that he can find 5-minutes in any day to just put a short message on his Kickstarter page saying something like " Hi everyone. We're all truly excited to see the level of enthusiasm being shown by the community. Just the other day I made contact with PC Pilot magazine and offered them an interview about our new project. I'm waiting to.see if they are interested."

(the above lines by Ilya are made up by the way)

or

"Hi everyone, it's brilliant to see that we aren't alone in our desire to see this new venture come to fruition and have to apologise for not being able to be as active in my replies as I know the community would want me to be. There is s much excitement going on around the project that I am really stoked to see it succeed, so the team are working hard behind the scenes to promote this in other areas that may be interested in supporting us."

or

"Just a brief note to.say everyone on the team is really thankful.for all your support, notes of appreciation for what we are doing and hopes for the future of this project. On.Friday I'll answer some of your questions on a Teamspeak channel, or video reply or Q&A response on my Kickstarter page to some of the most common messages/questions so-far."

Now all of the above messages took a couple of minutes to make. It isn't difficult and in the space of drinking a cup of tea I put the post together.

So that is why it frustrates the life out of me that Ilya and even Oleg or.someone from ED just don't seem to understand the passion that is building behind this project across communities.
This is an interactive world now. It's not a paper letter to the Developers office and wait a week for reply!
Is there a Facebook page they take seconds to make), is there a twitter account? Why know that you are about to launch a funding campaign and offer only small, sporadic clips of very amateur video.

I think the main frustration across the community is that there becomes a fear building that you see the team not learning from.their previous mistakes in communicating with the community they so.desire to trust them to believe they have changed.

Ilya needs to understand that he created a window to showcase his/their new project and there is no point in having the curtains closed!

This is their project and they only have a few days in which to gather as much enthusiasm and interest across the world. I just don't think they 'get' the idea of marketing and generally (as most things in.life), people judge you on your last results, not your best results, so as much as I love CloD, they need to hit the marketing hard to enthuse and excite the.other members of the Flight Sim community who feel like they got burned after the official demise of CloD. There was poor communication then, and this is (unless they change now) seemingly a legacy issue for the team that will not endear them to that part of the community who will only see it as the 'same old, same old'.

Also, going back to the short messages by Ilya that I made up. Once he posts anything on his Kickstarter page, it gets posted across the forums by his followers in this campaign. We respond and discuss his posts. But the community (as it looks like this thread has done, and I guess I'm as guilty as anyone) with a lack of input, then starts drifting back to memories of the poor communication that plagued the Banana Forums.and caused rifts to.develop in those who believed and those that were cynical of what was being sad.

Ultimately he needs in this short period of time to be 'wowing' the community with his eagerness to.please them. Whether that be with ideas like I suggested above or getting a member of the ED team to.post on the Kickstarter page about what they will be.helping with.......just something to.show there is a true interest in what the community hope for and that they have learned from their previous mistakes and really value what the.community has to.say

With the lack of interaction so-far, it's difficult to defend Ilya's judgement on his lack of marketing and communication skills.

Ultimately, I (and I presume all of us) want this to succeed, but his team need to understand that lack of communication in such an easily accessible media world that we live in, is not seen.as respectful and that is not a good perception to give to a dedicate (but small) group of Flight Sim.enthusiasts who he needs to endear himself to.

PS. The unofficial promo. I am putting together is made using footage from.DCS P-51 which I have tried to.learn.3-days after years of IL2! Please don't have great expectations...I'm just doing it for fun ;)

Oh, finally, none of the above is meant to.come across negatively about the possibility of WW2 DCS. I actually really like the DCS-P51 module (since Foul Ole Ron gifted it to me, thx Ron and others who offered to buy it for video making purposes), and.you can see just how great a WW2 expansion could be. It's just Ilya is frustrating the.life out of me as I think he has a naive expectation that 'everyone loves our work'. This isn't a Kickstarter Campaign about what they did in the past, it about what they will do in the future and he and/or his team really need to shine brightly in this window of opportunity. I do hope he gets to.understand that sooner rather than when it' too late?

Cheers, MP

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-18-2013, 08:26
+1 MP (except I would've been much wordier :D ).

C'mon Ilya....throw us a bone!

:)

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-18-2013, 08:34
Yep +1 from me too. It's just the perception that's important. There's a lot of people who think he needs to be a bit more visible. It's not a big ask to put aside 30mins - 1 hour every day to do a Q&A for a month. If he did that people would be reacting more favourably. People genuinely respond to an open developer who answers questions and provides regular feedback. It takes a bit of effort from the developer but for a short time period like KS it's one that can really pay dividends and won't kill their day.

BlueHeron
Sep-18-2013, 09:49
+1 Just showing his face in the KS comments, no matter how trivially, will give the impression that the project is in motion and not stagnating. Perception is key at this juncture!

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-18-2013, 10:51
Ilya has always been this way though. He was never really the community liason. That was always Oleg. Even back in the old IL2 days Ilya only posted because Oleg was on vacation etc.. I would rather have more interaction from him as well. But, to me, it's not really unexpected. What I'm waiting for is some Oleg RusEnglish :D

But the project itself sounds pretty damn solid to me.

Well, im hoping there is a biggish update coming towards the end of the KS to pull it over the line, because even how i feel about the past, im genuinely excited about the project, if it can be pulled off.

Im just hope there is no Banjo vid waiting to be shown. :)

Archie
Sep-18-2013, 11:41
I'm pleasantly surprised you have pledged Furbs, I don't think you have even pre ordered BoS yet!

Bounder!
Sep-18-2013, 12:30
Whilst I realise people like to see activity on the message boards I have to say I'm more relaxed about Luthier not posting updates every other day, we know they are working on a presentation of WIP of the a/c and I'd rather they concentrated on important stuff like that, that could give a real final boost to the kickstarter. As long as they make that initial 100K goal things will be great - a number of a/c modeled at the same level of the P51 in DCS in a 1940s map environment will be incredible, far beyond anything we've ever experienced before and blows all other competition out of the water imo. Once successful they and other 3rd parties can build on that very solid foundation.

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-18-2013, 14:05
Yep agree that it's important to work on that good content stuff. That'll help bring in the punters. But he should at least drop a line to say that's what he's working on and give an eta. Maybe those who are familiar with Ilya are ok with his absences but he needs to realise that spending even 15 mins a day on KS to keep his visibility up will help bolster the confidence of those backers who need to see this kind of thing. I work in a very busy job and there is always time in a day to do that sort of stuff no matter what else is going on. Not doing it makes no difference to some people and makes some people unhappy. Doing it makes no difference to the some people and makes others happy. It's a good payoff for what's really no time out of his day.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-18-2013, 14:42
Whilst I realise people like to see activity on the message boards I have to say I'm more relaxed about Luthier not posting updates every other day, we know they are working on a presentation of WIP of the a/c and I'd rather they concentrated on important stuff like that, that could give a real final boost to the kickstarter. As long as they make that initial 100K goal things will be great - a number of a/c modeled at the same level of the P51 in DCS in a 1940s map environment will be incredible, far beyond anything we've ever experienced before and blows all other competition out of the water imo. Once successful they and other 3rd parties can build on that very solid foundation.

If they are planned to be shown in the next week to boost the kickstarter but are not ready, then it means the KS was premature.
The months week of kickstarter videos, pics, updates should of been ready to go BEFORE starting the KS, leaving Luthier to work on the PR during the month, visit forums and communicate and get the message across.

To launch the KS the same day as moving house and having no internet is errrr lets say comes under proper planning to prevent piss poor performance....im going to file it in the same place as the epilepsy filter.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-18-2013, 14:44
Whilst I realise people like to see activity on the message boards I have to say I'm more relaxed about Luthier not posting updates every other day, we know they are working on a presentation of WIP of the a/c and I'd rather they concentrated on important stuff like that, that could give a real final boost to the kickstarter. As long as they make that initial 100K goal things will be great - a number of a/c modeled at the same level of the P51 in DCS in a 1940s map environment will be incredible, far beyond anything we've ever experienced before and blows all other competition out of the water imo. Once successful they and other 3rd parties can build on that very solid foundation.

If they are planned to be shown in the next week to boost the kickstarter but are not ready, then it means the KS was premature.
The months worth of kickstarter videos, pics, updates should of been ready to go BEFORE starting the KS, leaving Luthier to work on the PR during the month, visit forums and communicate and get the message across.

To launch the KS the same day as moving house and having no internet is errrr lets say comes under proper planning to prevent piss poor performance....im going to file it in the same place as the epilepsy filter.

Lets say i find the whole timing of the KS a bit iffy. :)

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-18-2013, 15:01
Well to be fair he moved the day of the original announcement. The KS came later. While he does seem to have some clear issues when it comes to planning and priorities I'm still in as once the product gets that ED sign off and is released it's going to be a new era in high fidelity combat flight sims. And with Igor Tishin we have the guy who did the P51 so overall I'm hopeful and plan looks decent. Still want to give Ilya a kick up the arse over some things but I'll live.

Royraiden
Sep-18-2013, 15:21
I agree to some point with Furbs but well there is no coming back now so it is what it is.

ATAG_Colander
Sep-18-2013, 15:29
He had to delay it...
If he would have started before, the ex-wife would have taken half of the KS money :)

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-18-2013, 15:34
He had to delay it...
If he would have started before, the ex-wife would have taken half of the KS money :)


Thats prob right lol!

He might have been moving into a tent.

Bounder!
Sep-18-2013, 17:27
If they are planned to be shown in the next week to boost the kickstarter but are not ready, then it means the KS was premature.
The months worth of kickstarter videos, pics, updates should of been ready to go BEFORE starting the KS, leaving Luthier to work on the PR during the month, visit forums and communicate and get the message across.

To launch the KS the same day as moving house and having no internet is errrr lets say comes under proper planning to prevent piss poor performance....im going to file it in the same place as the epilepsy filter.

Lets say i find the whole timing of the KS a bit iffy. :)

I have to say, they have been pretty clear an honest about the project and the kickstarter. Their project is in it's infancy, the technology is already there, we've all played DCS and we know the quality to expect. They have funds but have put up the kickstarter now to raise extra so as to have the biggest impact on the project at the beginning. They said they could have waited and shown more development but that many of the extra goals they want to achieve would have passed them by at that point.

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-18-2013, 19:14
They threw us a bone :D

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114094

Gotta love the attention to detail.

From Yo-Yo


As I wrote before, Jumo-213 engine is not simple and is not similar to the Merlin that became well aquainted during previous work. And as the basic model is rasping in the project code to the desired form of Jumo-213, it's possible to show the results got in vitro - in the special tool allowing full and fast multi-dimensional investigation of engine parameters and its tuning.
Reference points for power were taken from Motoren-Handbuch, Dec 1943, but as the fuel consumption key figures in this manual are for original MBG schedule that did not allow power ratings higher than Start - u. Notleistung (3250 rpm and 1.53 ata at SL), the schedule was taken from Ueberholungs - Anleitung, Oct 1944 for increased fuel flow scheduling, and reference point for specific consumption were calculated combining data for two sources.

The second diagram is very distinctive for the Jumo-213 (Motoren-Handbuch, Dec 1943). Manifold pressure vs ambient temperature at sea level dependance shows that constant air mass flow automatics keeping almost constant power vs altitude changing tries to keep constant power vs temperature changing but with less success, though.
Two parallel lines shows tolerance limits for the dependance from manual, and the blue line is the model response.

I emphasize that the diagrams show the model response to the ambient air condition. The live model uses fundamental parameters for the engine producing its performance as a result of complicated calculations.

So, as some of these parameters are unknown (MBG cams shape, for example, or exact blower chrachteristics) I need to adjust them for the overall performance or calculate, so overall set of obtained characteristics is a result of harmonisation and compromises... http://forums.eagle.ru/images/smilies/smile.gif
Anyway, all curves have their distinctive shapes.

http://www.forum.lockon.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=88144&d=1379528179



http://www.forum.lockon.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=88145&d=1379528179

Combat Wombat
Sep-18-2013, 23:03
Does anyone know if its possible to add a donation through Paypal ? sorry if this has been asked, as im sure there missing a lot of donations from younger hopefuls that have not got a credit card or those of us that don't like need or use Credit cards.

ATAG_JTDawg
Sep-19-2013, 00:17
Does anyone know if its possible to add a donation through Paypal ? sorry if this has been asked, as im sure there missing a lot of donations from younger hopefuls that have not got a credit card or those of us that don't like need or use Credit cards.

Don't think so , , but if you have a bank account , with a debit card , it's like a credit card , an it will accept it . You will also need a Amazon account . :thumbsup:

ATAG_Freya
Sep-19-2013, 01:12
Does anyone know if its possible to add a donation through Paypal ? sorry if this has been asked, as im sure there missing a lot of donations from younger hopefuls that have not got a credit card or those of us that don't like need or use Credit cards.

This is all that's stopping me from chuckin 40 bucks in. No paypal. Sucks. I wanted to support this for the sake of the genre if nothing else. I'm lovin the p-51 like most people seem to be, and look forward to seeing what they can do to make '44 come to life on our pc's... I wonder why they don't do this? I'm not at all familiar with kickstarter projects...but when you ask for money it seems wise to make all options possible for simpletons like myself who will ONLY use paypal for their online money dealings. I'll just have to spend it on heroin or meth instead. bloody enablers! OK, I'm joking, and that was outta line, but still, you know what I mean...

Cheers,
Freya

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-19-2013, 03:20
It's Amazon's choice to not accept PayPal. Nothing Ilya can do about their policies. Maybe somebody here you trust can help you out?

Archie
Sep-19-2013, 08:07
Just crawled over $86k. I really hope theres an update soon.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-19-2013, 13:47
Wow! i hate Luthier? i dont "hate" anyone, not in real life and certainly not in make believe sim world, ive nothing against Luthier personally, he looks to me to be a pretty nice, fun guy and i do admire his enthusiasm, energy and ability to bounce back.

Have i always voiced my disappointment and frustration at his past efforts...yes i have...and i wont stop doing that to any developer that i think is fecking things up, its called a opinion and ive never said and never will say people shouldn't be able to voice a opinion good or bad.

Have i sometimes been a bit over zealous in certain forums? yep, probably, but i think we all have done that no matter what side of the fence we sit on.

Do i want Luthiers new sim to be a success? dam right i do, the more WW2 sims the better and the thought of DCS planes in a WW2 setting on that new Edge map makes me excited. :)

BUT...i still think Luthiers effort so far is being poorly handled again, and im not alone in thinking it, just have a read on the KS forum.

So, no i dont hate Luthier, Oleg or anyone else....even Bliss. :)

They are all big boys and im sure they can handle it, if they couldn't they wouldn't be doing it.

Old_Canuck
Sep-19-2013, 13:49
If this is true, he's not alone. I remember seeing posts on another forum by a group who were bragging that they killed CoD. Some of them who were on my ignore list in the Banana Asylum are posting on ATAG now.

Mysticpuma
Sep-19-2013, 14:57
Okay, let's stop the bashing please?

This is not the Banana Forums, so we don't need threads to descend way off topic into "he said, she said".

It's about the funding, the new DCS WW2 and that's it.

Cheers, MP

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-19-2013, 16:15
Okay, let's stop the bashing please?

This is not the Banana Forums, so we don't need threads to descend way off topic into "he said, she said".

It's about the funding, the new DCS WW2 and that's it.

Cheers, MP

Thanks, MP.

Everyone, please remember that personal attacks are not allowed on this forum. Moreover, I regard personal attacks on this forum as akin to leaving a steaming turd in the middle of the living room floor. We're all guests here, please act accordingly.

Sincerely,


Snapper

ATAG_JTDawg
Sep-19-2013, 16:16
Okay, let's stop the bashing please?

This is not the Banana Forums, so we don't need threads to descend way off topic into "he said, she said".

It's about the funding, the new DCS WW2 and that's it.

Cheers, MP

+1 :recon:

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Sep-19-2013, 17:45
Seems to be tailing off... may have to kick up my donation.

Royraiden
Sep-19-2013, 17:51
Seems to be tailing off... may have to kick up my donation.

Luthier replied to some posts at ED forums, he is already working on more videos and said they would be up this weekend.Last update video brought in at least $9k, so hopefully the next one/s will bring a similar amount of donations.I dont think he dalayed these videos on purpose though, I honestly believe that he hasnt had the time because he is doing almost everything by himself:recon:

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-19-2013, 17:54
We're just halfway through the KS with only 13k to go. Has trailed off a good bit but we're still taking in twice the required daily amount each day. If a nice bit of content can be released hopefully that'll give it a shove up towards the point where it's a certainty we'd get over the line.

Archie
Sep-19-2013, 18:07
One good update could easily see the KS close to the 100k target.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-19-2013, 18:10
Today's update was very welcome and im looking forward to seeing the vid!, now if he could just do it a tad more often.

Taxman
Sep-19-2013, 18:55
Mysticpuma did post a video over at simhq on the DSC forum. Looked very good:salute:

Old_Canuck
Sep-19-2013, 19:28
Luthier replied to some posts at ED forums, he is already working on more videos and said they would be up this weekend.Last update video brought in at least $9k, so hopefully the next one/s will bring a similar amount of donations.I dont think he dalayed these videos on purpose though, I honestly believe that he hasnt had the time because he is doing almost everything by himself:recon:

Just checked. He said the video might be up on Monday. BTW, Glowing Amram just posted in that thread at ED and said he's around if anyone needs his help. Off to find MP's video now .. I'm sure it's good :thumbsup: If someone can talk Glowing Amram into throwing a vid. together as well it would certainly help. Just got a thought - wouldn't it be awesome if Glowing Amram and Mystic Puma would collaberate on a video!

Mysticpuma
Sep-20-2013, 02:12
Just a question for those who know how Kickstarter works.
The initial target is $100,000 with the further objectives listed.
So when the Kickstarter reaches the initial target, does t close stay open for the full 30 days?
I chose the Alpha tier $90 option and then thought, so when t reaches it's target, does that mean no-one else can buy anything until the first release?
So how could it reach the $375,000 target of it closes at $100,000?

Anyway, I was just wondering because does that mean as son as the Kickstarter closes, no-one can get in on the action until it launches? So is this a last chance to buy until it is released?

Secondly, once it is released (approx. September 2014), do those who missed out then buy it, and that revenue may be added to possibly going to the next level of their hopd for.expansions?

Got to.say I.am very pleasantly surprised at how beautiful the DCS P-51 iin the DCS World looked and can't wolait to make a few skins for it and have a little more playtime with it....and next year I'll get a P-47.....have I died and gone to heaven! Lol :)

Cheers, MP

56RAF_klem
Sep-20-2013, 02:39
My understanding is that it will stay open until current closing date and whatever has been achieved financially will determine the design goals. If it reaches, say, £126,000 only the first goals can be addressed although the extra funding may make that easier. Of course if positive feedback gets around when, say, the Alpha is released, Luthier may be encourages to launch another kickstarter for an expansion or wait for sales revenue to come in next year.

By the way MP, that is a brilliant job on the video.

Old_Canuck
Sep-20-2013, 10:35
89k and still creeping up. I believe your video had a positive effect in yesterday's pledges, MP, and if Ilya gets his video editing sorted out soon, we should see another spike. Last hope is end-of-the-month payday then the Jug is in the barn. Loved the jug too .. ever since CFS2 days when the sound mods came out.

P-47 according to Hollywood. Interesting how many WT players are posting here.

http://youtu.be/G79dkS7EzPY

Kling
Sep-20-2013, 14:00
Ilyas lack of updates are starting to piss me off however!
His kickstarter shouldnt depend on other¨s to do the advertisement videos!

Oersted
Sep-20-2013, 14:06
Kling et al...

4408

Royraiden
Sep-20-2013, 14:34
Ilyas lack of updates are starting to piss me off however!
His kickstarter shouldnt depend on other¨s to do the advertisement videos!

He is already working on more video updates,one probably coming this weekend.

Old_Canuck
Sep-20-2013, 15:23
That's correct Roy, he said it might not be ready 'till Monday. BTW, we just broke 90K :go: :go: :go:

Archie
Sep-20-2013, 16:06
4th update is...up! :thumbsup:

Old_Canuck
Sep-20-2013, 16:21
Indeed:

=========
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts/605176

Project Update #4: Friday Development Update - September 20
Posted by Ilya Shevchenko
Hello everyone,
The update pace has slowed down, as I’m sure you’ve noticed. We’re scrambling to shift gears; we've had a whole campaign written out and put together. As the kickstarter got started we realized it was all wrong, since we were doing something for people new to flight sims, expecting an influx of people who have never flown a plane in their life. Now that we've realized that this project can only succeed if we work with the dedicated flight sim fans, we're redoing and scrapping everything to give you guys what you need. We know the clock is ticking, so it's not a pleasant feeling.

We’re working on a large comprehensive video about aircraft. The part that is taking too long is the aircraft footage. We’re working to have some videos of the FW.190D-9 flying and fighting showing the cockpit, but some of the gauges are not yet working so that’s causing some delays. We really hate releasing stuff that does not look great. We also cannot afford to become a screenshot-taking and video-making project, so this makes juggling priorities rather difficult.

I’ve literally worked around the clock to have it ready today, but now that I’ve slept on it, it just does not look impressive enough. I think I’d rather spend a few more days adding more footage and changing a couple of other things rather than release the most important video of the project that I myself am not happy with it, and go out with a whimper.

In the meantime, here’s what we’ve done with the terrain over the last week.

We did a few more tests, and made a PSP runway and a pseudo-airfield with some parked P-51s. Have an annoying problem where static P-51s have issues with a transparent canopy.

We’re pretty much done with various terrain tests, and we’re ready to move on and start building it properly. General to-do is as follows:

1. High-res textures and terrain "noise"

2. Color correction

3. Go through the list of high-detail areas and recreate terrain from period sources.

4. Create and place proper 3D objects (buildings, hangars, fortifications, etc)

Tasks 3 and 4 will last well into 2014, especially 3D objects, which will keep being created and added all the way up to beta.

The first two tasks are quicker, but they will also not finish by the time the KS campaign does. Color correction is especially important. I find it difficult to release screenshots with it not done, but whatever time we spend doing it now will be wasted. There are a lot of components that need to be corrected and tested together. Terrain textures, tree textures, and vegetation, are all stored in different areas, and the colors are also affected by distance. Just making sure that trees look good at all distances and aren’t all the same shade of green while at the same time not looking like a circus is a long painstaking process.

We won’t do it now because we’re still working in the terrain editor. The terrain editor is simplified not to contain the atmospheric model. That really affects the in-game colors. Atmosphere, obviously, adds hues to everything. With a 24-hour day-night cycle, this makes color correction a huge chore. Think of it as trying to balance 20 spinning plates while riding a unicycle. You get the distant trees all nice and murky at dawn, and some trees become purple when viewed up close at noon. That kind of thing.

So, a few more points about the current terrain:

Textures are low-res placeholders
PSP runway is a quick test to see how a huge number of tiny holes interact with the underlying terrain and grass. Not final!
P-51s are the same P-51s that currently fly in DCS World, but they’re not flying here. They are just parked. You will be strafing these helpless static objects, nothing else.
As you can see, their canopies are opaque. That’s temporary, and only a feature of the terrain editor. Obviously, they will have beautiful transparent canopies in the final game, just as they do in the P-51 currently flying in DCS World.
Thanks everyone! Stay tuned for the killer aircraft video.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-20-2013, 20:01
Edit...sorry, its late and im tired..deleted.

Chivas
Sep-20-2013, 23:01
Ilyas lack of updates are starting to piss me off however!
His kickstarter shouldnt depend on other¨s to do the advertisement videos!

Mysticpuma was able to use the WW2 content of IL-2 1946 and COD, sims that Oleg and Luthier are responsible for. There is little relative content that Ilya can use, other than DCS World, and EDGE. It would have been nice if Ilya could have, but IC probably wouldn't give the OK for that, since they own those rites, and DCS WW2 is direct competitor of BOS, and COD.

I would have thought at least for the combat flight sim community, just saying they are going to build a late war theater, with the DCS game engine, EDGE graphic engine, Oleg, and Flying Legends would be more than enough info, but apparently not. Especially since it would be impossible to show any content of consequence at this very early juncture. They could have delayed kickstarter until more work was done, but kickstarter is also a very good way to judge the interest and therefore the feasibility of carrying on. I don't know if another kickstarter is possible after the release of the free demo when people can better judge the quality, but the whole point of kickstarter is give an idea a kickstart with the funds to help create the product.

Archie
Sep-21-2013, 06:09
Its telling from the first video that Oleg and Ilya are not even allowed to mention il2 by the looks of it.That must be pretty gut wrenching. The kickstarter is doing well, it should reach the 100k easily enough now.

Kling
Sep-21-2013, 06:19
I did have the impression from Ilyas last update that he was a bis disappointed about the kickstarter. He was expecting more support I think and especially more from "new" flightsimmers. I do think however it will be diffuicult to get warthunder players to come to DCS. They have a huuuge selection of planes there and its quick fun turn and burn and no realism.
Did you guys also read his update with the the same feeling??

Robusti
Sep-21-2013, 06:50
I did have the impression from Ilyas last update that he was a bis disappointed about the kickstarter. He was expecting more support I think and especially more from "new" flightsimmers. I do think however it will be diffuicult to get warthunder players to come to DCS. They have a huuuge selection of planes there and its quick fun turn and burn and no realism.
Did you guys also read his update with the the same feeling??

Yes. And I also thought he was turning away from the first time exterior view crowd and now focusing on the hard core crowd. That is good news IMO, but we had better step up to the plate financially if that is true, for fear he turns this into a WT model to recoup finances.

Archie
Sep-21-2013, 07:13
WT is where the money is, and I think he thought he could get a slice of that pie. Anything with DCS in the name is going to frighten away most of that player base.Good for those of us that want a hi fi flight sim, but, as Icarus said above, we will have to be prepared to get our wallets out if we want this to work.

airdoc
Sep-21-2013, 07:21
I did have the impression from Ilyas last update that he was a bis disappointed about the kickstarter. He was expecting more support I think and especially more from "new" flightsimmers. I do think however it will be diffuicult to get warthunder players to come to DCS. They have a huuuge selection of planes there and its quick fun turn and burn and no realism.
Did you guys also read his update with the the same feeling??

Yes, the last update gave the same impression to me.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Sep-21-2013, 07:39
Yes, the last update gave the same impression to me.

He is a bit silly if he thinks that's the case, not really understanding the breadth of consumer behaviour (which is no surprise, these guys have historically struggled with the consumer behaviour side of business). If he wanted a more rapid response, he should have made the time-scale for the kickstarter shorter!

There are plenty of us (me included) who will pledge, but just haven't done so yet. If the kickstarter had closed yesterday, I'd have probably pledged on Thursday....

Mysticpuma
Sep-21-2013, 07:46
I don't get the sinking feeling but I do get a feeling of unrealistic naivety.
I mean if he was aiming for the WT crowd....surely announce an expansion for that Theatre? Or purchase the Wings of Prey code and add their expertise to make the aircraft, models, environments, suitable for a large Sim that the CloD crowd expect?

Strangely, I do feel they really could make a.lot of money with this in the long run because this is a market that has (IMHO) a crowd of enthusiasts who will spend considerable money one a beautiful, working, technically challenging Flight Sim. Realistically, we spend hundreds of pounds on hardware to fly in this software, so the software is probably the cheapest most affordable part of it.
The thing is everything is seen as being instantly successful if it generates quick revenue. So burns bright for a short time rather than burns less brightly for a much longer and sustained period.
If they can make a solid WW2 foundation for DCS, I honestly see the hardcore players flocking over to it and investing a lot of cash. That doesn't mean BoS is bad in some of our opinions, it's just the aircraft they offer (at the moment) hold no interest for me as does that theatre. Others will love it, no doubt. But that doesn't mean I 'hate' BoS and want to talk it down, I just don't want to wait for them to get to the Combat Theatre that contains the P-47/51 and 190D. There is room for both Sims, it's just some of us are getting older and want to fly in the aircraft that we have waited for (in a beautiful environment) for so long, and with BoS, realistically it will be at-least 2-3 years?
I wonder if (and it would be groundbreaking at launch), if they were to release a map-making SDK from the start and that would allow users to help them create the English Coast for them? They really should embrace thee modding/user community who could vastly improve the speed of their output, interest a whole new.side of the community and help create authentic content for use/release in the Sim.

Actually on that thought, why not release SDK's at the start, ask the community to create Mods. They then send them to the Dev's to pass a.Quality Control, then give the creator's a cut of any profits they make by offering QC tested MODS as paid for addons?

Just a thought...but currently, I live in hope.

It was interesting to read that BoS got 1410 'founders' (pre-order sales). Looking at the current backers for this Kickstarter, it looks pretty competitive and that's without any official footage of it in action having been released.

:)

Cheers, MP

dburne
Sep-21-2013, 08:06
Ilyas lack of updates are starting to piss me off however!
His kickstarter shouldnt depend on other¨s to do the advertisement videos!

My sentiments as well. I realize he had an update yesterday, but basically scrambling to shift gears and try another direction at this stage of the KS?
I have pledged 150 bucks, and am starting to second guess myself on it. I guess I will wait and see what the next few days bring... I am finding myself not quite as positive about this venture as I was when I pledged. Hopefully the information we get in the upcoming days will ease my mind somewhat.

Royraiden
Sep-21-2013, 08:45
My sentiments as well. I realize he had an update yesterday, but basically scrambling to shift gears and try another direction at this stage of the KS?
I have pledged 150 bucks, and am starting to second guess myself on it. I guess I will wait and see what the next few days bring... I am finding myself not quite as positive about this venture as I was when I pledged. Hopefully the information we get in the upcoming days will ease my mind somewhat.

He has replied at least 3 times already and posted an official update yesterday.A video update is coming on monday.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Sep-21-2013, 09:00
Personally I don't care much about the money as I do that we continue to get quality sims to fly in coordinated battles againts other humans. The realism is importent to me as well as the esprit de corps of flying with Mates and like minded people. I think it will be a sad testimonial if this doesn't happen. Fingers crossed that this gets funded.
Lets see where we are as it gets close. I'd be willing to punt again for the same amount if it's close enough to matter.:salute:

airdoc
Sep-21-2013, 11:04
The thing is everything is seen as being instantly successful if it generates quick revenue. So burns bright for a short time rather than burns less brightly for a much longer and sustained period.
If they can make a solid WW2 foundation for DCS, I honestly see the hardcore players flocking over to it and investing a lot of cash. That doesn't mean BoS is bad in some of our opinions, it's just the aircraft they offer (at the moment) hold no interest for me as does that theatre. Others will love it, no doubt. But that doesn't mean I 'hate' BoS and want to talk it down, I just don't want to wait for them to get to the Combat Theatre that contains the P-47/51 and 190D. There is room for both Sims, it's just some of us are getting older and want to fly in the aircraft that we have waited for (in a beautiful environment) for so long, and with BoS, realistically it will be at-least 2-3 years?
I wonder if (and it would be groundbreaking at launch), if they were to release a map-making SDK from the start and that would allow users to help them create the English Coast for them? They really should embrace thee modding/user community who could vastly improve the speed of their output, interest a whole new.side of the community and help create authentic content for use/release in the Sim.

Actually on that thought, why not release SDK's at the start, ask the community to create Mods. They then send them to the Dev's to pass a.Quality Control, then give the creator's a cut of any profits they make by offering QC tested MODS as paid for addons?

Just a thought...but currently, I live in hope.

It was interesting to read that BoS got 1410 'founders' (pre-order sales). Looking at the current backers for this Kickstarter, it looks pretty competitive and that's without any official footage of it in action having been released.

:)

Cheers, MP

Eagle Dynamics have embraced the modder community already, so hopefully they will follow the same path with DCS WWII. During the last update on EDGE engine by ED (not referring to the kickstarter), they said that they don't yet know if they will release the EDGE tools to the public (sorry don't have the link handy). However, this means that they ARE considering it, and in the months to come after the kickstarter, the community can always push towards this. Ilya promised a suggestions/ideas thread, and the fact that the kickstarter campaign proved that the main audience is the hardcore fans, should really give the community the power to direct upon releasing these tools to modders.
It would be really nice to have a free SDK for EDGE, and see new maps for DCS WWII made by the community.
I 'm sure that if 1/4 of ATAG members who pledged expressed this wish in ED forums, the developers would ultimately embrace it.

Same feelings here for BOS. Although I 'm optimistic it will be a nice sim, the planeset and theater are rather unappealing. They currently have only one winter map for the release. And no matter how good it turns out to be, the specs will never be up to DCS standards. DCS P51 flight model is not one step forward, it's rather two or more steps forward. It may be lacking in effects or graphics, but these will certainly be improved in the future. However, the concept of a detailed sim will never emerge in BOS. That's why, in my opinion, DCS WWII has the potential to be the best platform for the future.
So let's keep those pledges coming!

Oersted
Sep-21-2013, 11:28
I agree in a lot of the criticism of Luthier, but I think there is a basic premise to think about, which is this:

No big multinational professional developer house would waste their money these years in even touching a hi-fidelity flight sim.

- So, almost BY DEFINITION, we won't be getting a slick professional developer doing this stuff. Even Microsoft, with all its financial acumen, walked away from "Flight", which in itself was a dumbed-down FS! Where the money goes in gaming development is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT-ZCS-B740 Says a lot about our sad times, doesn't it?

Luthier is quirky, but at least he seems to burn for hi-fidelity simming, and it seems he can also get together a good team of programmers and work with them. His operation is not big and well-financed, he himself is not the consummate professional in every respect, so I set my expectations to PR and presentation accordingly and just hope he pulls it off.

Chivas
Sep-21-2013, 13:02
Frankly I'm far more disappointed with some in the combat flight sim community in other forums, that need to be held by the hand, coddled, and constantly fed. We have a group of experienced combat sim enthusiasts asking for money to help create a high fidelity combat flight sim, with an existing game engine, and new graphic engine, who have already built successful sims. Kickstarter monies will help them maintain control of their own creation, instead of the beancounters. Exactly what is the problem? Our investment is miniscule, compared to the possible years of entertainment.

Old_Canuck
Sep-21-2013, 13:02
Surely you guys have seen the posts by those who have arrived here from WT. Give it time. WT is doing a great service by exposing hordes of potential hard core sim junkies to our genre as they get bored with the turn and burn routine. Their influx might help help to keep high fidelity flight sims going but just barely. I must agree that it's a sad commentary on our times that so many are attracted to that fluff.

Royraiden
Sep-21-2013, 13:34
Surely you guys have seen the posts by those who have arrived here from WT. Give it time. WT is doing a great service by exposing hordes of potential hard core sim junkies to our genre as they get bored with the turn and burn routine. Their influx might help help to keep high fidelity flight sims going but just barely. I must agree that it's a sad commentary on our times that so many are attracted to that fluff.

Indeed theres good potential with so much people following Warthunder.The trick however, is to somehow present sims like CLOD,BOS and DCS to that crowd.As of now I think that isnt happening.

palker
Sep-21-2013, 18:02
You should be aware that most kickstarter project on the start feature little more than concept art and lots of promises. The fact that they showed early footage of the game is exception rather than rule. I backed Wasteland 2 last year based on trust, a video and few concept art pictures (would have backed DCS project as well but i am little short on cash this month). In game footage only appeared early this year. If they had a complete game ready for showing they would not go to Kickstarter. Demanding update where there is not that much to show yet is pretty pointless.

Old_Canuck
Sep-21-2013, 18:33
You should be aware that most kickstarter project on the start feature little more than concept art and lots of promises. The fact that they showed early footage of the game is exception rather than rule. I backed Wasteland 2 last year based on trust, a video and few concept art pictures (would have backed DCS project as well but i am little short on cash this month). In game footage only appeared early this year. If they had a complete game ready for showing they would not go to Kickstarter. Demanding update where there is not that much to show yet is pretty pointless.

Good to know this, Palker. This is my first exposure to Kickstarter but if DCS WWII goes another round I'll be interested. Hope your cash situation is resolved by then as well :)

jjohnson241
Sep-21-2013, 18:51
Indeed theres good potential with so much people following Warthunder.The trick however, is to somehow present sims like CLOD,BOS and DCS to that crowd.As of now I think that isnt happening.

I don't think there is that great a potential for the W/T crowd to see the light. My take on W/T is that it's a FPS that uses an aircraft as the preferred weapon. It's a game and attracts "gamers". Sims that require a player to master the aircraft along with its weaponery and the tactics of air combat and players that enjoy the realism of having to master "all that" are unique and IMO do not attract "gamers". There may be rare exceptions but we'll never see the W/T crowd (or gamers in general) warm up to our genre in any significant numbers.

Roughly 2000 folks pre-ordered BoS and we'll have a similar number if not slightly less contribute to DCS WW2 KS. What that tells me is that the market for WW2 sims, hi-fidelity or otherwise serious about the sim experience and the aircraft included is virtually non-existent today. Why? Two reasons I believe; 1) the genre is focused on action that occured 70+ years ago and the vast majority of today's gamers could care less about the WW2 air war, and 2) because the "gamer" of today is not interested in expending effort to "learn" the environment and specifics it may take to play the "game". I can't fault them for that.

It's hard for me to imagine how DCS WW2 can be financially successful, given the "free to play" model and the limited marketplace for pay-for enhancements. I guess it's possible but I just don't see it happening. Depressing thought.

Anyhow, I'm in the mix as a contributor and we'll see now where the ride takes us.

Robusti
Sep-21-2013, 20:54
$95,000!! Painfully close.

Roblex
Sep-22-2013, 02:28
Oleg would have benefited greatly from looking at the problems CLOD is having before relying on newbies supporting the new game. How many hardcore IL2 players are there out there who don't play CLOD because Full Realism is too much for them? We also have quite a large contingent that have got as far as playing CLOD offline on a regular basis but still can't make that jump to CEM to get online. The DCS P51 is proving quite a challenge for experienced CLOD pilots who have no trouble with Full Realism so nobody in those IL2 & offline CLOD groups is going to want to pre-pay for a game that would appear to be twice as hard to master as CLOD.

On the other hand, DCS and CLOD have a very faithful core of players who *will* support DCS WWII and I think a lot of DCS players who would not go as far as supporting Kickstarter will get hooked when this new bunch of planes appears in their playground :D To get the newbies and less hardcore combat flight sim players into DCS WW2 will need a serious investment in guides, tutorial videos and lots of handholding to ease them gently into full real simming. I hate to say it but they might even need to provide a slightly dumbed down mode to allow new players to practice in a seperate arena.

We will easily hit the initial target in the next few days and, as often happens in Kickstarter, I reckon there are a lot more serious investors waiting to see if there is enough interest to reach the initial target before putting in their own stakes.

Old_Canuck
Sep-22-2013, 02:29
@jjohnson241, I think I understand what you're saying that we won't see huge groups coming at us from WT but our ranks are small enough as it is that every WT shooter who repents of his sins and comes into the fold is precious in our sight. Even if it remains a trickle and never turns into a stream it will a good thing for our genre as it seems like more and more of us fanatical supporters are getting too old to find their joysticks with both hands.

Chivas
Sep-22-2013, 02:52
Oleg would have benefited greatly from looking at the problems CLOD is having before relying on newbies supporting the new game. How many hardcore IL2 players are there out there who don't play CLOD because Full Realism is too much for them? We also have quite a large contingent that have got as far as playing CLOD offline on a regular basis but still can't make that jump to CEM to get online. The DCS P51 is proving quite a challenge for experienced CLOD pilots who have no trouble with Full Realism so nobody in those IL2 & offline CLOD groups is going to want to pre-pay for a game that would appear to be twice as hard to master as CLOD.

On the other hand, DCS and CLOD have a very faithful core of players who *will* support DCS WWII and I think a lot of DCS players who would not go as far as supporting Kickstarter will get hooked when this new bunch of planes appears in their playground :D To get the newbies and less hardcore combat flight sim players into DCS WW2 will need a serious investment in guides, tutorial videos and lots of handholding to ease them gently into full real simming. I hate to say it but they might even need to provide a slightly dumbed down mode to allow new players to practice in a seperate arena.

We will easily hit the initial target in the next few days and, as often happens in Kickstarter, I reckon there are a lot more serious investors waiting to see if there is enough interest to reach the initial target before putting in their own stakes.

I agree, having an easy mode is essential to hardcore type sims. There is a lot to learn about flying, tactics, shooting etc before venturing into CEM etc. Hardcore is a very small part of the genre. You just had to look at IL-2 1946, to see the vast majority of the servers/players had lowered difficulty settings. There is room for everyone in these sims if their are enough options.

Stig1207
Sep-22-2013, 03:31
[QUOTE=ATAG_Old_Canuck;...... getting too old to find their joysticks with both hands.[/QUOTE]

I'm putting faith in my wife still being able to do so:D

9./JG52 Ziegler
Sep-22-2013, 08:44
I don't think there is that great a potential for the W/T crowd to see the light. My take on W/T is that it's a FPS that uses an aircraft as the preferred weapon. It's a game and attracts "gamers". Sims that require a player to master the aircraft along with its weaponery and the tactics of air combat and players that enjoy the realism of having to master "all that" are unique and IMO do not attract "gamers". There may be rare exceptions but we'll never see the W/T crowd (or gamers in general) warm up to our genre in any significant numbers.

Roughly 2000 folks pre-ordered BoS and we'll have a similar number if not slightly less contribute to DCS WW2 KS. What that tells me is that the market for WW2 sims, hi-fidelity or otherwise serious about the sim experience and the aircraft included is virtually non-existent today. Why? Two reasons I believe; 1) the genre is focused on action that occured 70+ years ago and the vast majority of today's gamers could care less about the WW2 air war, and 2) because the "gamer" of today is not interested in expending effort to "learn" the environment and specifics it may take to play the "game". I can't fault them for that.

It's hard for me to imagine how DCS WW2 can be financially successful, given the "free to play" model and the limited marketplace for pay-for enhancements. I guess it's possible but I just don't see it happening. Depressing thought.

Anyhow, I'm in the mix as a contributor and we'll see now where the ride takes us.

Unfortunately I have to agree with JJ on this. Why is nothing but speculation but I would add that we hard core lot have quite a bit more invested in hardware alone. I would venture to say that most W/T guys fly with a mouse. I couldn't imagine not having my "stick and rudder" pedals and throttle quad. While many of those "gamers" do probably have the PC/GPU specs to run just fine, the other flight controls would probably just get in their way? As an auto and motogp enthusiast I also have a fanatec racing set up for Iracing, Rfactor 2 and the upcoming asetto corsa and project cars (another kick starter of sorts).
My point is that changing over from flying to racing (cockpit) is a bit of a pain and if I had the dosh, (really it's about the little lady and spacewhaa) I would have a dedicated one of each. :D There is an investment of money and precious time in controllers and learning and this may be another reason we don't see as much crossover as we would expect? We live in a bit of an instant gratification society these days for better or worse.

jjohnson241
Sep-22-2013, 11:56
@jjohnson241, I think I understand what you're saying that we won't see huge groups coming at us from WT but our ranks are small enough as it is that every WT shooter who repents of his sins and comes into the fold is precious in our sight. Even if it remains a trickle and never turns into a stream it will a good thing for our genre as it seems like more and more of us fanatical supporters are getting too old to find their joysticks with both hands.

Canuck,
I agree that anyone we can convert is a plus, but that trickle won't make a difference in the overall position of WW2 hi-fidelity sims in the marketplace. I also agree that we're a dying breed and sadly no new blood is arriving to offset our losses. I've already velcroed a beeper to my stick(s). :D

Oersted
Sep-22-2013, 13:53
Mysticpuma can take pride in that +4,000$ peak yesterday: all his work I'd say.

Archie
Sep-22-2013, 15:54
It certainly didn't hurt! If Luthier comes up with another video/update tomorrow we could crack 100k

Old_Canuck
Sep-22-2013, 16:06
Mysticpuma can take pride in that +4,000$ peak yesterday: all his work I'd say.

+1

Just broke $97,000 - watch for the new video sometime Monday (edit: overused "two weeks" cliche deleted).

Archie
Sep-22-2013, 16:36
Ilya just posted at KS:
All right, so here's the general breakdown of the response to the new Me.262 stretch goals:

For: 18
Against: 2
(if I counted right)

So I think I'm going to update it today, and that'll be it for the kickstarter changes. Getting down to the wire.

A lot of people wrote about making a 50K stretch goal for the map SDK, but that actually doesn't need quite that much money. When I talked about releasing it earlier, I meant doing it simply within the constraints of the base 100K goal.

First and foremost we still need to have an internal discussion about it. There are legal issues. I don't own the EDGE engine, and the map editor currently is pretty much open code. Obviously that's not something we want to release to the public, because technologies.

If ED, the people who do own EDGE, are OK with releasing it out - and that's a BIG IF - then we'll need to work a bit to make it nice and obfuscated, I'll personally write something that passes for a manual, and in a month or so it could be available to backers. I guess we'll set up a backer discussion and share roles and find some people willing to make 3D models of buildings and landmarks and so on and so forth. Once again, IF this is possible at all. All this within the 100K base, and I really don't see how asking for any more money is needed.

Alain: Regarding the $20+ levels. Right, if you already own both the DCS Dora and the DCS P-51, the base 100K tier gives you nothing. I really hope we'll get the 150K with the 262. I really think that people were discouraged by the seemingly unreachable 375K for the B-17, and if we give some much closer goals, we'll pick up the pace.

Vijar: Yes I guess we do need something big and powerful to interest the general gaming community and get some media coverage. Time's running out. All bets on my upcoming aircraft video.

Milan: On one hand you may be right, and the kickstarter is rather early. On the other hand, I think we did extremely well already, all things considering. Everyone involved in the project is energized. People who invested the majority of the cash to get it started are feeling a lot better. We have a much better idea of what we're doing and what the people want. We still made the money we need to spend as much time as we need on the project, and there's still a pretty good hope of tacking on an exciting new flyable. So, is it as good as can be? Of course not. But it's still really, really good.

Old_Canuck
Sep-22-2013, 17:29
Foot in the door + 262 flyable sounds great and there's still about 1/3 of the time left 'till closing. Now the movie will spike the pledges for sure.

=======================================
"This project is not just about the dollar amount, but about community support. The number of backers shown next to the project is extremely important! We're currently at 1,378 backers and $97,293. If we can get to 2,000 backers by the project's end, even if that means only adding a single dollar from these new backers, that is still going to be an amazing showing." -- Luthier
=======================================

I've already sent an email to my brother in law who is interested in flight sims but is waiting to upgrade his computer. Told him to send in $1 and help us out here. EVERYBODY .. this is where even a single dollar can help if you care even a little bit about quality flight sims.

Roblex
Sep-22-2013, 17:42
Personally I would rather have a typhoon or maybe a JU87. If you want to whoosh round the sky with your arse on fire you already have plenty of options in DCS :D

Chuck_Owl
Sep-22-2013, 17:42
Well, the Me-262 is pretty much the last aircraft I want to fly in DCS WWII. Good for the 262 fans though :)

I would've killed for a Typhoon, Tempest, Mosquito or B-17!

Archie
Sep-22-2013, 17:55
Well, the more money they get, the more chances that the aircraft we all want could be made with DCS fidelity one day! They got some more of my money! :thumbsup:

Mysticpuma
Sep-22-2013, 17:56
Further update from Luthier:
"ALL planes we are doing are done to the P-51 standards. We are not doing anything less for anything. All cockpits fully clickable. All systems modeled. AFM flight model.

No one has ever discussed anything less for this project. Never even considered it"

Mysticpuma
Sep-22-2013, 18:10
The fact that the SDK was a possibility in the current funding is great news....if ED can be shown how important such tools would be.
Personally I have no interest at this moment in the 262 for the reasons I posted in the comments thread for Kickstarter, basically it played such a small roll in comparison to.the other aircraft on.offer, didn't really dogfight and mainly got shot down when returning to base. Defending against it online will be nearly impossible and there is no.way I'd chase it...so.flying a.262 will be a lonely experience and not much fun of you like dogfighting?

My main request (as the SDK is already a possibility, is for a solid netcode as (and we see it here) online play is essential for Squads, community, teamplay and let's face it, socialising with like minded players/friends.

It certainly will happen (the initial kickstarter funding will be met), but without a bomber they really need to give us a chance to.see Southern or East England (Norfolk at-least for US Fighter and Bomber groups) or a solid online experience?

Just my thoughts.

BTW. I have.nothing against the 262, it's just that when you consider the.other Allied and Axis Aircraft are all prop driven, the 262 just doesn't seem a priority in comparison to.a B-17. I'd rather they just saves the money and put it towards a flyable bomber...even an Axis one if possible?

PS
I also offered to make an.official promo video for them...just have to.wait and see if there is any interest?

Cheers, MP

Royraiden
Sep-22-2013, 18:17
The fact that the SDK was a possibility in the current funding is great news....if ED can be shown how important such tools would be.
Personally I have no interest at this moment in the 262 for the reasons I posted in the comments thread for Kickstarter, basically it played such a small roll in comparison to.the other aircraft on.offer, didn't really dogfight and mainly got shot down when returning to base. Defending against it online will be nearly impossible and there is no.way I'd chase it...so.flying a.262 will be a lonely experience and not much fun of you like dogfighting?

My main request (as the SDK is already a possibility, is for a solid netcode as (and we see it here) online play is essential for Squads, community, teamplay and let's face it, socialising with like minded players/friends.

It certainly will happen (the initial kickstarter funding will be met), but without a bomber they really need to give us a chance to.see Southern or East England (Norfolk at-least for US Fighter and Bomber groups) or a solid online experience?

Just my thoughts.

BTW. I have.nothing against the 262, it's just that when you consider the.other Allied and Axis Aircraft are all prop driven, the 262 just doesn't seem a priority in comparison to.a B-17. I'd rather they just saves the money and put it towards a flyable bomber...even an Axis one if possible?

PS
I also offered to make an.official promo video for them...just have to.wait and see if there is any interest?

Cheers, MP

Couldnt agree more Mystic, on the other hand, having that ME-262 would be a nice addition to attract the jet fighter jockeys who might be on the fence because they are not into prop driven aircraft.There were a lot of people asking for a flyable 262 since the beginningso I think is a reasonable stretch goal.Maybe a twin engine bomber would had been another good and feasible alternative but I support his decision.

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-22-2013, 18:28
Think it's a good call. There's no way he could do the B-17 for $50K. And I'm sure starting a Tiffy, etc. from scratch would cost more than that too. An extra flyable though that's already half made and one that quite a few people are interested in sounds like a good move.

The possibility of the SDK for the map is great too. Though I'm thinking that ED might not be so keen just yet. They've released very little info really about EDGE so I'm not sure if they'd be up to sharing a SDK yet. Would be a smart move if they could put in the necessary obfuscation and let the community loose on it though. To be honest I've felt they should do something like that with the mp netcode too for a while now. TF proved how a community can take that side of things and improve it greatly.

56RAF_klem
Sep-22-2013, 19:14
Surely you guys have seen the posts by those who have arrived here from WT. Give it time. WT is doing a great service by exposing hordes of potential hard core sim junkies to our genre as they get bored with the turn and burn routine. Their influx might help help to keep high fidelity flight sims going but just barely. I must agree that it's a sad commentary on our times that so many are attracted to that fluff.

This is and always has been a good point. Easing guys into something harder isn't always easy. When they get to 'I'm tired of this game, it's easy now' they are at a fork in the road, one way pointing to the next cheap easy mass volume game and only a few to 'I liked that, where's something harder'.

There is also another route in but it relies in being able to persuade 'serious simmers' of the Flight Sim and X-Plane community that a hi spec air combat simulation is no longer something to be sneered at as simply a 'game' but requires, at full settings, a high level of knowledge and skill. And yes I can hear some of them laughing but websites like SimHQ already carry a proportion of members that see military aircraft and air combat as interesting and sims of the DCS level as being 'serious' flying. The problem is reaching some of the others.

I have often felt, with no disrespect intended, that for years pure flight sims have been seen by many as intended mainly for the serious would-be aviator 'doing it right' with a range of aircraft from the simple microlight to the A380 to 'fly' and achieve as near a realistic experience as possible. And, by considering themselves to be 'serious' and engaging in a 'serious' community, I wonder if some find it difficult and perhaps embarrassing to admit or even consider that flying around and shooting stuff down in a high spec combat sim can be not only challenging and requiring a degree of aircraft management and certain skills but also can be a lot more than a 'game' and, god forbid, something they can openly be seen to have fun doing. And yet what is Flight Simulator or X-Plane? Well by Microsoft's definition, a 'Microsoft Game'. It's true that many Flight Simmers are of the more staid variety but over the past ten to fifteen years adult gaming has spread like wildfire, not to mention being one of the few pastimes outside popular sports to cross the generations. My own family has a solid three generations at it all the time.

btw, I don't think the genre is populated by guys getting too old to find their joysticks with both hands : ) It's not about some kind of personal identity with history or an era which, lets face it, none of us are old enough to have taken part in. Its an attraction to a particular kind of history and style of event. Think about the last warbird air show you went to, the crowds don't get any smaller. It always used to appeal mostly to the 30+ generations because of the learning curves, financial ability to buy hardware and perhaps a growing interest in history and aircraft that often comes with age. Well, there are more coming through all the time and include now the younger guys brought up on gaming and which is a natural major financial outlay for them. As they age the gaming community ages with them so our genre should grow to some degree.

It's not age but the level that is changing and threatening to narrow the field so, back to the start, we need to drag them in and bring them on.

EDIT: Back OT, I think Ilya is giving the 262 away too cheaply to seriously affect the KS result.

Mysticpuma
Sep-23-2013, 03:15
Today is going to be the day it succeeds....good times ahead :)

Cheers, MP

jaydee
Sep-23-2013, 03:51
Just pledged some money to help get it over the line ~S~

Archie
Sep-23-2013, 04:07
Nearly there! Over 99% at the time of writing! Onwards to the 262!
You might not want to fly it, but you could always try to shoot it down as it tries to land through a flak corridor! :D

Oersted
Sep-23-2013, 04:56
Let's see how big a kick Ilya's movie will give. That will tell us whether 150,000 is realistic...

FAE_Cazador
Sep-23-2013, 05:51
$100.000 funding reached and going up! Now let's get the Schwalbe!

Mysticpuma
Sep-23-2013, 05:51
Yesterday. Update from Ilya:

"
Ilya Shevchenko 1 day ago

I like the SDK idea. The terrain editor is a rather stable easy to get into tool. However we have virtually no documentation for it. All knowledge is seat of the pants, shared by the team members sitting in the same room.

We will have a discussion next week about a map SDK. Of course, other parts of the game are open as well. There's nothing preventing 3rd parties from developing their own planes theoretically. However in practice, things are difficult. Some of you may remember that I ran large-scale 3rd party development efforts since 2001, that's how I got into flight sims, and at one point around 2003 I was managing and dealing with other 100 external modelers all trying to create their own planes and cockpits for my old project.

Even in those days, when creating a plane or cockpit 3D model took about a month for a dedicated employee at Oleg's studio, a 3rd party modeler would usually take a lot longer. The technical requirements were complex even then; and most dedicated fans could not put in 40-hour weeks working on their hobby. Various back and forths, model tests, bug fixes, etc, also took a lot longer when done remotely. I would say less than a third of all projects stated even then were ever finished. Most people flaked out at some point simply because their enthusiasm could not compete with the harsh reality: that they'd need to put in hundreds of dedicated hours doing rather boring tasks.

Now ten years later with DCS, the complexity has increased ten-fold. A dedicated full-time employee could spend six months building an aircraft. Extrapolate that to a fan working nights and weekends and trying to learn all the requirements, and you have at least a year of 3D work. It's very tough to finish.

Same with maps. Southern England, for instance, has thousands and thousands of man-hours if done properly, to the same standard we want to do Normandy. Sure, we can give it out to the community. But we'll need a large group of people putting in tens of hours a week, every week, for six to nine months, all working on a schedule, all dependent on each other, each holding a critical piece of the project in their hands. It can work of course, but a realist in me can see a thousand ways this can go wrong. I'm sure you'll agree.

In short, the complexity is huge. Dedication required is incredible. Two thirds of the people I worked with ten years ago were unable to complete much simpler tasks, however eager and excited they were in the beginning. It's a problem.

@ Andrew: We are staying true to the project, and the overall vision has not shifted at all. I am running two things at the moment, the marketing/kickstarter, and the development. It's my marketing vision that shifted. I am just trying to figure out who will be interested in supporting this project at this particular stage of development. Two months ago I thought it would be the general gaming community. Today I know that it's just the established tightknit flightsimming community. The product has not changed, and we have not shifted a single thing in the overall plan.

The development plan is very simple. Take the incredible success of the DCS P-51. Build more planes just like it. Give them a map to fly over. Rinse and repeat.
We have other ideas and aspirations that have to do with multiplayer, various other features, but they're all secondary. The core of the product, the thing that will never change, is that we want to make aircraft that are just as good as the P-51.

@MAC There's definitely more than 2,000 dedicated fans that we hope to please. The sales numbers for the P-51 alone tell a different story. We thought, perhaps foolishly, that if we could excite every flight simmer who bought the P-51 into supporting DCS WWII, we'd be able to hit most if not all of the stretch goals. We obviously did not. There are a lot more people buying DCS products than are supporting this kickstarter; and our hope is that having a good, comprehensive, realistic entry-level free product will attract more people to DCS.

@Shawn We don't have marketing folks, it really is just me.
I also did not mean to say that I don't have time to take screenshots! Sorry, was a bit too cryptic there. I meant to say we can't afford to shift production tasks to make sure our screenshots look better. We're developing what we're developing, and if that means that at a certain point in time we have things in our screenshots or videos that look unfinished, so be it. That's what I meant."

very detailed response :)

Cheers, MP

Royraiden
Sep-23-2013, 13:15
$4,000 so far today and Luthier's update is not even up yet.People do seem to want that little jet.Either that ot they are just simply more confident now after we passed the 100k mark.Anyways this is good news.

Roblex
Sep-23-2013, 13:39
Nearly there! Over 99% at the time of writing! Onwards to the 262!
You might not want to fly it, but you could always try to shoot it down as it tries to land through a flak corridor! :D

I think I might offer a free pair of state-of-the-art pedals for the first person to shoot down 1000 262s :P I think we should make it a policy that whenever someone flies a 262 we camp his airfield and pick him off as he takes off and lands until he gets fed up. That bugger flies like an overloaded Wellington for the first five minutes after take-off and lands like one too so it should be easy.

In real life they had 190s dedicated to protecting the 262s near the airfield but, in-game, people wont be so helpful :devilish:

Kling
Sep-23-2013, 13:42
I think the longer this Kickstarter is running, the more forums it will spread to and the more money it will get each day. Today alone it has got more than 4000USD which is alot just compared to a week ago.

Old_Canuck
Sep-23-2013, 20:39
That makes good sense re: the forum spreading effect, Kling. I hope the increased level holds because so far it's the bare minimum we need for that 262.

ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Sep-23-2013, 21:22
eah, I doubled my pledge. I would have wound up buying the DCS:Fw-190 anyways. So hey, pre-order 2 games plus a free t-shirt. Sounds More than reasonable to me :D. Come on B17!

Mysticpuma
Sep-24-2013, 14:12
Ilya's latest update:

"Hey folks,

We're finally getting through to the general gaming public, as it seems. Now that the kickstarter hit the initial goal, I guess more people are taking notice.

I know I promised an airplane video last week, and the clock is really ticking, but I'm too much of a perfectionist. I feel like I've been in labor for days, and I've finally gone with a C-section. We actually did an almost complete reshoot today. We recorded a very long very detailed conversation between our two main aircraft experts, and I'll probably just release it as is with minimal edits. Just need to subtitle everything.

Then, prepare yourselves, I'm going to release another video that has been gathering dust for a long time, a video intended for gamers that do not generally fly flight sims in order to try to convert them to the genre.

Now onto some answers.

Mysticpuma: I'd love to get your help with a more oomphy trailer. Your work is awesome. However, I'm not sure how we can really create a good trailer with what we have. The unofficial trailer I've seen cannot be made official for a very unpleasant reason. I'm unable to use any portion of my old work for my new project. If you noticed, I'm not even allowed to mention the name of the series I've worked on. That really clips our wings, because at this time we can basically either use existing P-51 / Dora footage from DCS, or have some talking heads.

SlipBall: Yes, you'd be able to fly your plane in both platforms

Zoltann: There is a banner for the KS on the main DCS page, down to the left. I agree that it's not very visible. I'll work to have a press release up there or something.
And there's no reference to our old work because we're not allowed to even mention the name. Tough, but totally outside my control.

Jeroen: OK, I'll create that pledge. Good idea, thanks!"

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-24-2013, 14:19
MP, where are these updates?
Shouldn't they be posted somewhere on the DCS forum?

ATAG_Headshot
Sep-24-2013, 14:22
Man I can even imagine how much it must hurt to not even be able to name your own older projects. That is downright brutal. Due to this the unofficial trailer may actually be able to do more good than an official one.

Archie
Sep-24-2013, 15:56
This stood out:
If you noticed, I'm not even allowed to mention the name of the series I've worked on. That really clips our wings, because at this time we can basically either use existing P-51 / Dora footage from DCS, or have some talking heads.

And there's no reference to our old work because we're not allowed to even mention the name. Tough, but totally outside my control.

Thats really disgusting, that something you created for ten plus years, probably the most famous combat flight sim ever, you are not even allowed to mention. :(

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-24-2013, 16:10
And you could probably guess the one person that made sure those legal constraints were put into place. Pretty pathetic.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-24-2013, 16:15
And you could probably guess the one person that made sure those legal constraints were put into place. Pretty pathetic.

One person? i would imagine 1C would of had a good deal to do with it, crappy i agree but i guess that's business.

Archie
Sep-24-2013, 16:17
All their dreams came true when they stole that name...

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-24-2013, 16:18
One person? i would imagine 1C would of had a good deal to do with it, crappy i agree but i guess that's business.

Yes, the idea was one person. Just like the idea to completely shut down Cliffs of Dover and completely change gears to go with another team, even though MG's BoS was all but finished, came from one person. To get both done took the actions of many, but the instigator was one person on both accounts.

Old_Canuck
Sep-24-2013, 16:21
"What goes around comes around." Hope I live to see it.

Chivas
Sep-24-2013, 16:42
"What goes around comes around." Hope I live to see it.

Totally agree.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-24-2013, 18:07
Interesting view points, will have to remember them.

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-24-2013, 18:24
Interesting view points, will have to remember them.

Yes.. Some of us see what has happened for exactly what it is. A terrible loss to the flight sim community. The Clod game engine is probably one of the best all around game engines ever created. To throw that away out of the need for instant greed is baffling. Then to add insult to injury, by promise of being sued, you can't even mention a word about the product you developed that also just so happens to be the longest lasting, most popular combat flight sim ever made.

It's not really an interesting view point to have. It's a moral one that I would hope anyone that has the most basic of logic can see what's going on, would share it as well. Business is business, you bet. But if the only way to get your foot in the door for said business is to take out your competition, I think that speaks volumes about your your product's ability in the 1st place.

vranac
Sep-24-2013, 19:12
Yes.. Some of us see what has happened for exactly what it is. A terrible loss to the flight sim community. The Clod game engine is probably one of the best all around game engines ever created. To throw that away out of the need for instant greed is baffling. Then to add insult to injury, by promise of being sued, you can't even mention a word about the product you developed that also just so happens to be the longest lasting, most popular combat flight sim ever made.

It's not really an interesting view point to have. It's a moral one that I would hope anyone that has the most basic of logic can see what's going on, would share it as well. Business is business, you bet. But if the only way to get your foot in the door for said business is to take out your competition, I think that speaks volumes about your your product's ability in the 1st place.

+100

Tempered
Sep-24-2013, 22:53
Interesting view point, if I follow your beliefs correctly. It certainly sounds plausible. I agree that the CLOD engine was put to rest way to early. So much potential lost.

Now that I look back at events, a certain party on an aircraft carrier comes to mind.

dburne
Sep-25-2013, 00:36
Interesting view point, if I follow your beliefs correctly. It certainly sounds plausible. I agree that the CLOD engine was put to rest way to early. So much potential lost.


I would certainly agree with that sentiment...

Mysticpuma
Sep-25-2013, 02:35
MP, where are these updates?
Shouldn't they be posted somewhere on the DCS forum?

Hi Furbs. On the kickstarter page is a button that says 'comments'. As a backer I can post questions in there, but if you aren't a backer , I think you can read but not post comments?
Anyway, that's where he has done a few 'select Q&A

Cheers, MP

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-25-2013, 03:20
Hi Furbs. On the kickstarter page is a button that says 'comments'. As a backer I can post questions in there, but if you aren't a backer , I think you can read but not post comments?
Anyway, that's where he has done a few 'select Q&A

Cheers, MP


Thanks MP, got it now.

56RAF_klem
Sep-25-2013, 05:07
And you could probably guess the one person that made sure those legal constraints were put into place. Pretty pathetic.

It was probably in his original 1C contract, it's a common practice although I think its been stamped on here in the UK.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-25-2013, 05:15
It was probably in his original 1C contract, it's a common practice although I think its been stamped on here in the UK.

Thats exactly what i thought Klem, but dont let that hold anyone back.

PFT_Endy
Sep-25-2013, 05:47
A standard practice is that all rights for anything he did while being employed by a certain company are not his and belong to them. Not even being able to say you worked on this or that project is NOT a standard practice. Look at any other game developers, they are always free to say "I worked on game A, B and C, and was project lead on D".
I've never ever seen a case where someone couldn't even mention he worked on a certain project (unless the project was top secret but that's absurd in case of games...).

56RAF_klem
Sep-25-2013, 06:14
A standard practice is that all rights for anything he did while being employed by a certain company are not his and belong to them. Not even being able to say you worked on this or that project is NOT a standard practice. Look at any other game developers, they are always free to say "I worked on game A, B and C, and was project lead on D".
I've never ever seen a case where someone couldn't even mention he worked on a certain project (unless the project was top secret but that's absurd in case of games...).

I agree on the IPR issue but something has nailed him down beyond that, presumably his contract or his terms of severance. Probably bent over a barrel.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Sep-25-2013, 06:15
Not even being able to say you worked on this or that project is NOT a standard practice..

I cannot believe that such a clause in a contract could be, in any way, legally enforceable. Certainly not in Europe.....

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-25-2013, 06:27
Yep have to agree with that. Not even being able to say you worked on something is both draconian and petty. There's clearly no "non-competition" contractual arrangement in place as Ilya is working on a product that is competition in the marketplace. Not being able to mention what you worked on before when pretty much everybody knows what you did just makes the enforcers look a bit foolish and childish - this is the internet age people. Personally I'd doubt that the clause would even be enforceable in the courts unless there was a reasonable consideration given in return.

Skoshi_Tiger
Sep-25-2013, 08:36
I guess there would be a difference between mentioning previous work roles as say part of your CV and using it in a advertisement of a competing product.

PFT_Endy
Sep-25-2013, 08:58
I guess there would be a difference between mentioning previous work roles as say part of your CV and using it in a advertisement of a competing product.

Still, I've yet to see a similar case. Usually the devs are advertising as loud as they can "Some of our people worked on this and that game!", even if they had some less significant roles. In case of "important figures" it's stuff like "creator of X and Y!" even if he was far from being the most important, yet alone only person on that project. You can observe this stuff easily in many Kickstarter campaigns or just any new games for that matter. For example Chris Roberts speaking about his past projects like Wing Commander or Wildstar devs speaking freely many of their staff worked on World of Warcraft, you get the gist of it.

Anyway, Luthier being unable to even mention his involvement in IL2 or CloD is some crazy stuff I've never seen before...

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Sep-25-2013, 09:42
I guess there would be a difference between mentioning previous work roles as say part of your CV and using it in a advertisement of a competing product.

Actually I think you are right. There is a definite commercial difference.

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-25-2013, 10:02
At any rate ED have a bit more class (or sense). I see there's nothing stopping 1CGS/777 promoting how Petrovich worked on the LockOn series and Han worked on LockOn and Blackshark:

http://il2sturmovik.com/about/

Royraiden
Sep-25-2013, 11:58
The pledge amount has almost stopped, that video cant come soon enough, only 10 days left.

Chivas
Sep-25-2013, 13:06
I find it offensive that 777Studio's/IC takes credit for the original IL-2 series in their advertising, and stops the actual creators from doing so.

ATAG_Headshot
Sep-25-2013, 14:19
I find it offensive that 777Studio's/IC takes credit for the original IL-2 series in their advertising, and stops the actual creators from doing so.

It's extremely offensive.

Mysticpuma
Sep-25-2013, 14:32
Maybe Ilya should call it Voldemort? We'd all know what he meant....but it would remain that that shall not be named :wave:

Remon
Sep-25-2013, 15:24
By that moment, LockOn already had very good graphics and sound and by these characteristics it was among the leaders in the genre. To achieve what community was intensively requesting from the in-game flight model the studio hired Andrey Petrovich Solomykin.

By 2004 when LockOn: Flaming Cliffs was released, Andrey had completed developing the new flight model for two ground assault planes Su-25 and Su-25T "Frogfoot". Who knew that working at ground assault planes (“sturmovik” in Russian) would be sign for the future?

So how was Frogfoot in LockOn: Flaming Cliffs different from the previous game in the series - LockOn: Modern Air Combat? It is that it received Advanced Flight Model instead of Standard Flight Model.

They're claiming here that Petrovich created the AFM concept alone, is that true?

Mysticpuma
Sep-25-2013, 19:37
New update:
"Hey guys,

Wow. I can't even remember the last time I did something like this. Ever since I wrote my last comment yesterday, let's see, how many hours ago, I just sat down and worked on the video straight out. No sleep, but, well, tons of food. Double damage!

Transcribing, translating, and subtitling 25 minutes of plane talk is something I hope never to do again.

Anyway, the video is now rendering. About 20 minutes left. Then, I'm guessing, it's going to be a little while to upload this monster.

There's tons of interesting details. There's gameplay. There's the Dora cockpit. There are some internal footage showing our flight model.

Stay tuned. I'm going to go get some fresh air, and get a little sleep while the video is uploading. Then I'll post it as an official update and get on to answering questions."

Old_Canuck
Sep-25-2013, 19:48
Thx for the heads up, Puma.

Marmus
Sep-25-2013, 19:55
Mysticpuma: I'd love to get your help with a more oomphy trailer. Your work is awesome. However, I'm not sure how we can really create a good trailer with what we have. The unofficial trailer I've seen cannot be made official for a very unpleasant reason. I'm unable to use any portion of my old work for my new project. If you noticed, I'm not even allowed to mention the name of the series I've worked on. That really clips our wings, because at this time we can basically either use existing P-51 / Dora footage from DCS, or have some talking heads.
"

Not allowed to mention......but how about if a package were to drop off the back of a truck in front of MPs house as thanks...and just happened to have the source code to the unmentionable project?

Old_Canuck
Sep-25-2013, 20:00
Not allowed to mention......but how about if a package were to drop off the back of a truck in front of MPs house as thanks...and just happened to have the source code to the unmentionable project?

roflmao - classic word picture, Marmus. Ilya's update should be up before 9 PM PST if his upload holds steady.

Update 6 was posted over half an hour ago but it's marked "private." Should we let Ilya sleep or send a Sikorsky over his house? :-)

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-26-2013, 13:03
Your right, it was a little harsh sorry, i was tired and a bit grumpy this morning, i think it was because im just frustrated with seeing this sort of mistake from Luthier and it just brings back memories of the whole CLOD launch and patch problems.
Why is the guy having to do all this on his bloody own? Luthier has passion, talent and energy but the whole PR, organisation and forum presence thing is not his strength and it really hurts him.

Feel free to delete my other post.

Sorry again.

Canuck, i don't post anything for a audience, i don't mind if people agree with me or if they don't. If i did i contently wouldn't be posting criticism here would i?
Il give praise and criticism where i think its deserved.

Ive spoken out against Jason when i found out there is no COOP's in BOS, and i will again if i think its warranted, i don't have a agenda with anyone or any sim.

If you still think i have a agenda we could meet up on TS and have a proper chat about it if you want.
I don't have a problem with anyone in ATAG.

Old_Canuck
Sep-26-2013, 13:35
Furbs, I accept your explanation and respect your calm delivery of same :salute:

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-26-2013, 14:11
OK, relevant post deleted and associated responses as well.

I appreciate this being resolved as it has. I do share certain concerns, although this latest video update goes a long way to reinforcing my confidence in the whole project. I'm impressed with the huge focus on details such as flight modelling, with acknowledgement that specific aspects of eye candy will get further needed attention. It is my strong impression that some very, very smart and capable people are working on DCS WW2.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-26-2013, 16:00
Snapper, i don't think FM's will be a problem with either DCS44 or BOS very smart people working on both i think.

I found the video very interesting regarding FM's, though i still thought it wasn't the right vid for the right moment of the KS, i was hoping for a little more DSC44, though if Luthier at this stage hasn't got anything else ready then i don't know what im hoping for...if you know what i mean.

I still think Luthier would of been better waiting a month before starting the KS.

If it was me i would of...

Announced the KS at the same time with the same opening, but not started the actual funding for the KS for another month, then during this month i would of ran polls to ask what planes interest the most people and get a top 5 not including the p51 and the 190 and just kept working on the map, models, answering questions on the forums and making some videos...spreading the word.

Then launched the KS with base game - Map, MP, Single player campaigns and 3 planes, the P51, 190D and the Spit IX for 40$ then added planes in stretch goals in line with the top 5 planes in the poll, forget the t-shirts manuals and the other fluff.

kept it simple for the first year and then build from there.

But easy for me to say i guess. :)

Dutch
Sep-26-2013, 16:55
I was hoping for a little more DSC44.

Furbs mate, where do you think 'more DCS44' would come from? It doesn't even exist yet. If Luthier & Co. did produce something they're currently working on in pre-pre-alpha mode, you'd be the first to jump in and say it's a pile of pants.

The man can't do right for doing wrong. Please, give us all a break. Cheers.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-26-2013, 17:17
Dutch, if you read what i put just after..."though if Luthier at this stage hasn't got anything else ready then i don't know what im hoping for...if you know what i mean."

I said, i was "hoping" just wishful thinking and wanted to see not demanding or expected to see.

Dutch
Sep-26-2013, 17:22
Dutch, if you read what i put just after..."though if Luthier at this stage hasn't got anything else ready then i don't know what im hoping for...if you know what i mean."

I said, i was "hoping" just wishful thinking and wanted to see not demanding or expected to see.

Fair enough. I'd just prefer that this forum didn't degenerate into a repetition of what we've all heard before in another place. To the disadvantage and detriment of us all, in my opinion.

Foul Ole Ron
Sep-26-2013, 17:32
With BOS we didn't see screenshots of planes until a few months after the first dev diaries and it was six months before we saw a brief 1.5 min clip of a Lagg-3 in flight. Ilya should be afforded the same sort of time to produce actual proper content.

Royraiden
Sep-26-2013, 17:52
With BOS we didn't see screenshots of planes until a few months after the first dev diaries and it was six months before we saw a brief 1.5 min clip of a Lagg-3 in flight. Ilya should be afforded the same sort of time to produce actual proper content.

1,000+

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-26-2013, 18:15
To be fair though, BOS wasn't asking for pre-orders at the start of development, and even when they did offer pre-orders only a couple of months ago, some people said they haven't shown enough for them to order.

I think Luthier has most of us simmers interested, the reason i wanted more "fancy" stuff was to attract the people who maybe not into flight sims, the more casual gamers who wouldn't be as interested in high fidelity FM development videos as us lot.

Dutch
Sep-26-2013, 18:27
the reason i wanted more "fancy" stuff

There isn't any fancy stuff. It hasn't been invented yet. When Stephenson first drove the 'Rocket', and people read about it in the newspapers, was someone like you there to say 'Not good enough! I want the DVD!!'

I just get the feeling that you're not quite getting this part. The project only exists in embryonic phase. There is nothing to show. They need the kickstarter dosh and the proof of public support to get to the next stage. They are not being shovelled lumps of money to produce even a polished kickstarter vid such as the 'Star Citizen' bloke obviously did.

There isn't anything to show. Whether 'fancy' or not. You cannot see what they can't produce. It doesn't exist yet. They don't have the money. That's why they need the kickstarter funding.

Old_Canuck
Sep-26-2013, 18:57
Update 7 is on its way! [Furbs how about sitting back with a knowing smile on your face and just let this happen ok?]

"Hey folks,
Brace yourselves. The next video I release is going to be a much less hardcore look at the game, targeted towards more casual or new players. Still going to have a bunch of gameplay footage, maybe some EDGE, but generally nothing amazingly new.
Then I'll do a part two of the aircraft video talking about the modeling. There's a lot of intricacies there too. External models, cockpits, animations, damage, etc. Should be interesting, and I don't think a lot of developers usually talk about that.
Now, back to EDGE. Doing some color corrections. Maybe it'll look a lot prettier by tomorrow."

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-26-2013, 19:05
I get it Dutch, you get it, the flight sim crowd mostly do but the people who Luthier wanted to reach out to don't, he said himself he wanted the casual gamers to get into this sim, but they haven't, hence the reason the KS has only reached the first base goal and the reason i said i wish he waited anther month to have some "fancy" stuff to lure the less hardcore in.

Anyway its done now, i hope the KS reaches the 262, im going to help next payday.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-26-2013, 19:08
Update 7 is on its way! [Furbs how about sitting back with a knowing smile on your face and just let this happen ok?]

"Hey folks,
Brace yourselves. The next video I release is going to be a much less hardcore look at the game, targeted towards more casual or new players. Still going to have a bunch of gameplay footage, maybe some EDGE, but generally nothing amazingly new.
Then I'll do a part two of the aircraft video talking about the modeling. There's a lot of intricacies there too. External models, cockpits, animations, damage, etc. Should be interesting, and I don't think a lot of developers usually talk about that.
Now, back to EDGE. Doing some color corrections. Maybe it'll look a lot prettier by tomorrow."

LOL Canuck, posted my last reply as you posted that. :)

See Dutch, Luthiers listening to me...lol

The next 2 vid sound just what the doctor ordered.

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-26-2013, 19:34
What I don't get with all the worries from people is the fact that DCS is already established. The planes and modules released are already established. This isn't like building an entire game engine from scratch, which RRG and crew are not doing. That's the ED people. So essentially you have someone create all the 3d models. And one look at Cliffs and you'll know Ilya and crew can definitely model. There is no comparison to the cockpits in Clod let alone the atmosphere etc.. It's not even close.

It's also testament to their ability when virtually every single airplane model inside and out that's being released with 777's BoS all came from MG's BoS in the 1st place. So why the worry? These guys, Ilya/Oleg, were never about marketing and gimmicks. If their product was good, the internet spreads the news. Look at IL246.. Look at all the advertising for that entire series and you'll find a few release trailers and DVDs. There was essentially no advertising etc.

So Furbs, my question is why are you worried about what they show or not? With what they have to do to get their map up to snuff, working models (they already did the Dora cockpit etc.), and working on terrain, isn't it bloody obvious that they will have no problems being able to do that? Have 5-8 planes modeled and a terrain to fly over?

I'm just personally hoping they can work hand in hand with ED so the MP / netcode side of things is sorted out (which is supposed to come with EDGE). I just can't figure out the worry from some people. Everything they've been tasked to do here, they've already proven to basically be the best at it in the 1st place. Regardless of the release status of Cliffs, you can't fault the 3d models of any of it.

I'm just confused about why you think the way you do. It has absolutely no merit to the reality of their already long list of accomplishments.

Tempered
Sep-26-2013, 22:14
Snapper, i don't think FM's will be a problem with either DCS44 or BOS very smart people working on both i think.

I found the video very interesting regarding FM's, though i still thought it wasn't the right vid for the right moment of the KS, i was hoping for a little more DSC44, though if Luthier at this stage hasn't got anything else ready then i don't know what im hoping for...if you know what i mean.

I still think Luthier would of been better waiting a month before starting the KS.

If it was me i would of...

Announced the KS at the same time with the same opening, but not started the actual funding for the KS for another month, then during this month i would of ran polls to ask what planes interest the most people and get a top 5 not including the p51 and the 190 and just kept working on the map, models, answering questions on the forums and making some videos...spreading the word.

Then launched the KS with base game - Map, MP, Single player campaigns and 3 planes, the P51, 190D and the Spit IX for 40$ then added planes in stretch goals in line with the top 5 planes in the poll, forget the t-shirts manuals and the other fluff.

kept it simple for the first year and then build from there.

But easy for me to say i guess. :)


That would have been the ideal way to go about it. I'm guessing that some factor probably pushed his hand into starting before he was ready. Perhaps he really needed as much funding up front as possible. Or perhaps he is just not good at promotional endeavors. The only thing that would worry me is if he just has no organizational skills. How could you possibly complete a project like this with little to no organization?

As long as I get my WW2 campaign for the p51, I'll give him some slack and back his project.

Robusti
Sep-27-2013, 08:09
What is going on? Are people bailing? -$113 pledges today. What gives?

Remon
Sep-27-2013, 08:24
What is going on? Are people bailing? -$113 pledges today. What gives?

I think one of the big spenders, probably a 1k pledger, withdrew or lowered their pledge.

Royraiden
Sep-27-2013, 08:58
I think one of the big spenders, probably a 1k pledger, withdrew or lowered their pledge.

$113 less not 1k.

Dutch
Sep-27-2013, 09:12
$113 less not 1k.

Hmm, He means that some people made pledges today, but a 1k pledger pulled out, giving a balance of -$113. I hope there haven't been any deliberate saboteurs here, coz that's what that looks like........

Robusti
Sep-27-2013, 09:15
$113 less not 1k.

I think he meant if a $1000 pledge was withdrawn, the daily net might be -$113 if there was +$887 pledges previously.

Stig1207
Sep-27-2013, 09:30
I think one of the big spenders, probably a 1k pledger, withdrew or lowered their pledge.

Correct. A $1000 pledge is no more. This is something to worry about as we near the deadline, backers withdrawing or lowering their pledge because the KS isn't going to reach any stretch goals. It's an understandable reaction, particularly from those with the highest pledges.

There are a lot of misunderstandings from flightsimmers regarding this project. It's not a pre-order like BoS, because there is nothing to pre-order. Ilya can't show more WIP than he has because there isn't any, and there (probably) won't be any more WIP if the KS ends up below the base goal.

What Ilya has been doing is sharing his vision with us, showing what might be our flightsim future. Think what you will of his organisational and PR ability, they are what they are. His genius lies elsewhere. It remains up to the flightsim community to ensure that his vision bears fruit. So more encouragement and less bitching (not directed at anyone in particular, there's been a lot it, on many forums and in the KS comments), that what's needed now. It won't be Ilya's fault if the KS fails.

Robusti
Sep-27-2013, 10:04
So more encouragement and less bitching (not directed at anyone in particular, there's been a lot it, on many forums and in the KS comments), that what's needed now. It won't be Ilya's fault if the KS fails.

My original post came out of concern/worry/fear. I do not think this will fail at this point. IMO losing a $1000 pledge is better than 10 $100 pledges. The later was my fear not so much the former.....that is to be expected in Kickstarters. Glad things are still stable and going forward overall.

Stig1207
Sep-27-2013, 12:15
My original post came out of concern/worry/fear. I do not think this will fail at this point. IMO losing a $1000 pledge is better than 10 $100 pledges. The later was my fear not so much the former.....that is to be expected in Kickstarters. Glad things are still stable and going forward overall.

I share your concern and agree with your points. As I wrote, I'm not targeting anyone personally, but rather the flightsim community in general. IMO there has been far too much focus from flightsimfans on what plane should be in which stretch goal, the map, the awards, updates and so on, rather than on the potential that this sim offers.

Roblex
Sep-27-2013, 17:20
Um Guys? While you are flaming Furbs for suggesting that Ilya should have spent a bit longer talking to the fans about what exactly they wanted before launching it in Kickstarter, perhaps you should read what Ilya himself said on the subject:-


You may think you know what your fans want, but they know it even better. We went the “vague hints and allusions followed by a major reveal” route, and that locked us in to some bad decisions. If you open up everything you have to the fans without being locked into anything by kickstarter, and dedicate a couple of weeks to a thorough discussion, you will be able to discover and correct a lot of completely unexpected shortcomings.

We had not done that and learned it the hard way. Our kickstarter campaign has definitely lost some money because we miscalculated on a lot of rewards. .

Old_Canuck
Sep-27-2013, 18:28
Just another bump in the road. Lots of options possible after KS is done.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-27-2013, 18:47
Um Guys? While you are flaming Furbs for suggesting that Ilya should have spent a bit longer talking to the fans about what exactly they wanted before launching it in Kickstarter, perhaps you should read what Ilya himself said on the subject:-

Cheers Rob, but don't worry i didn't feel flamed, just healthy discussion to me. Ive got a pretty thick skin. :)

As for what Luthier said, there was a few ways to go about it and Luthier picked one way. Its easy for me to say after the fact it would of been better another way i guess, but that's how i would of done it.

=BKHZ=Furbs
Sep-28-2013, 03:59
So Furbs, my question is why are you worried about what they show or not? With what they have to do to get their map up to snuff, working models (they already did the Dora cockpit etc.), and working on terrain, isn't it bloody obvious that they will have no problems being able to do that? Have 5-8 planes modeled and a terrain to fly over?
I'm just confused about why you think the way you do. It has absolutely no merit to the reality of their already long list of accomplishments.

Sorry Bliss, i missed this reply earlier, if you want my answer to why im worried then i will, but i don't want to be accused of having a go at Luthier again and we sort of got past that in this thread.

Royraiden
Oct-02-2013, 19:06
More than 6k today and maybe even more with the backers on Paypal.Oh this is going to be a close one:recon:

Old_Canuck
Oct-02-2013, 21:29
Kicktraq has been down for awhile. Yes sir it's going to be a cliff hanger alright.

EDIT: ah finally after two days, Kicktraq is showing on my computer. Wow over $7,000 yesterday not counting Paypal and $3,000 showing for the first 15 minutes of today. This could be a kind of moral victory with Paypal option keeping the door open but still doing it all on Kickstarter Wooohoooo!

UPDATE: 10:45 PST:

"Hey folks,
The current PayPal tally is $2,259.41. Adding the this very second KS total of 134,307, we have the grand total of $136,566.41
I really think the Me.262 is in sight!
I'm making a video right now talking about the most important question I think we have left, accountability and the project's future. I'm going to talk about why we're confident that we're going to deliver what we said we will deliver.
I won't intercut game footage or WIP stuff in there so I can release it faster, so I hope it won't be too boring to watch.
Stand by, should be ready in a couple of hours."