I was in but...

[AKA_Recon]

... I must admit, after hearing of DCS WW2 1946, my interest has dropped dramatically in BOS.... but hey, I bought the top notch, so we will see...

[Royraiden]

... I must admit, after hearing of DCS WW2 1946, my interest has dropped dramatically in BOS.... but hey, I bought the top notch, so we will see...

1946 already? Hehe.

[gavagai]

I feel the same way. I pledged to the DCS Kickstarter but have yet to preorder BoS, and I may never play it. BoS seems like a step backward from Clod in terms of aircraft systems management, clickable cockpits, etc., whereas DCS is another step forward.

[Archie]

I preordered, but I kind of regret it.I would rather have put that extra cash into DCS WWII. After flying the DCS Mustang I'm not sure I can go back to a RoF level game. :(

[PFT_Endy]

I thought it was possible to cancel a preorder? At least that's usually the case.

[Archie]

Not so sure, especially once its been activated.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I preordered, but I kind of regret it.I would rather have put that extra cash into DCS WWII. After flying the DCS Mustang I'm not sure I can go back to a RoF level game. :(

Yeah, and the P51D is the "Cadillac" of WWII prop planes. There's soo many automatic features and controls etc.. Just wait until we get something a little more rustic to fly around in the DCS engine. It's going to be a royal PITA, but in a good way :D

But you want to see the fidelity of DCS, fly the A10. From your startup procedures, to the weapon sets, to all the other systems etc., it is like a flying encyclopedia of stuff to learn. DCS will probably be the 1st flight sim I could ever play SP in. And it's simply because there's so much immersion inside the cockpit and flight model itself, that what's going on around you is only secondary. To have a huge MP experience in that sort of fidelity and the concentration required, is going to be flat out insane..

[PFT_Endy]

Not so sure, especially once its been activated.

Ah, I assumed it's the same as with most games where you can cancel anytime before release.

[Tomsk]

... I must admit, after hearing of DCS WW2 1946, my interest has dropped dramatically in BOS.... but hey, I bought the top notch, so we will see...

Personally I'm quite looking forward to both, but I'm getting the distinct impression that the ATAG group as a whole is leaning much more heavily towards DCS WW2 than BoS. Which is understandable, given the "double-pedigree" (Oleg/Ilya and DCS) of DCS WW2.

That said I think BoS could still be really good. In particular BoS sounds like it's going to have an interesting multiplayer campaign engine from the get go, whereas things seem to be a bit more vague on that front for DCS.

In the end it's nice to be spoilt for choice, there have been so few flight sim offerings of the last few years. Given that, I fully intend to support both products, even if I mostly end up playing just one of them.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

Personally I'm quite looking forward to both,

In the end it's nice to be spoilt for choice, there have been so few flight sim offerings of the last few years. Given that I fully intend to support both products, even if I mostly end up playing just one of them.

+1 to that Tomsk:thumbsup:

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Im going to be flying all 3 and prob get a divorce.

[MadTommy]

Well I was on the fence over pre-ordering.. but having asked what seemed to be too pointedly pointed questions regarding pricing and being attacked by the BoS community i won't be pre-ordering, and don't feel like trying it even at release now. I suppose i'll see what the reviews are like, but i'm feeling pretty annoyed the attitude of that community, its too divisive for my liking.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Well I was on the fence over pre-ordering.. but having asked what seemed to be too pointedly pointed questions regarding pricing and being attacked by the BoS community i won't be pre-ordering, and don't feel like trying it even at release now. I suppose i'll see what the reviews are like, but i'm feeling pretty annoyed the attitude of that community, its too divisive for my liking.

Yeah, there are a bunch of strange folks there talking really loud. I actually wish I wouldn't have preordered now after the latest update. They kept saying the pricing etc., would be different from ROF, but then I get an update saying I get my own gunpods for being a premium member. That makes me believe it will have the same sort of weapons mod crap ROF has where you have to purchase all the bits for your plane. Next thing you'll have to buy virtual fuel to make it run. The original IL2 model worked because the sim was good.

The folks at BoS will spend millions in advertising to try and get the initial sales, but can't handle someone asking about limitations with their game engine or any other criticism regarding their product. That just shows me the last thing they do is care about the customer. When you have the bean counter deleting posts that are addressing serious flaws with their product, you can tell exactly what they really care about.

No serious simulator makes you buy instrument gauges, gun sights, let alone different weapons for your plane. So now the premium guys get a different set of weapons than the folks that buy the game later. And they will probably have to grind for it or purchase the gun pods to receive them.

Thankfully, the original IL2 guys that are now making the DCS WWII stuff will have everyone playing the same game. And if you buy DCS WWII, you'll have the same game as everyone else. I know full well when I bought the DCS P51 let alone DCS WWII that when you own the P51 and I own the P51 we'll both have access to every bit of kit the plane had in the 1st place. It's just plain absurd not to.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Yeah the exclusive gunpods thing is a bit daft. Wouldn't mind if they were ultimately unlockable - don't like that concept all that much either but I can live with it for marketing purposes. But to shut people out from stuff forever even if it's just a small thing? Just wrong in principle for a realistic flight sim game. We should all be playing the same game at the end of the day.

[Mastiff]

Yeah the exclusive gunpods thing is a bit daft. Wouldn't mind if they were ultimately unlockable - don't like that concept all that much either but I can live with it for marketing purposes. But to shut people out from stuff forever even if it's just a small thing? Just wrong in principle for a realistic flight sim game. We should all be playing the same game at the end of the day.

well you can be reassured that the gun-pods will be available to every one after the official release. as a selling point... That's the ROF way. or 777Studios, nothing is for free, over head costs!

[Screamadelica]

Looks like Ilya's on their six now! $150k reached. Interesting times ahead...:)

[Headshot]

Well I was on the fence over pre-ordering.. but having asked what seemed to be too pointedly pointed questions regarding pricing and being attacked by the BoS community i won't be pre-ordering, and don't feel like trying it even at release now. I suppose i'll see what the reviews are like, but i'm feeling pretty annoyed the attitude of that community, its too divisive for my liking.

It's a shame you feel as if you were attacked by the BOS community. They mostly seem like a good bunch of blokes. I always thought it was pretty sporting of them that they have a DCS thread over there and do their best to keep it civil.

[gavagai]

The BoS marketing strategy is to get customer's money through the distribution of community status. Marketers study this stuff, and they have found out that some will pay inordinate sums of money for special identification in an online game. Spend more money, spend sooner, and you get more status. It's a nefarious strategy that makes Rise of Flight seem egalitarian. The end result is that the focus of BoS will be distracted from core content. There will be a financial incentive to add content that can be sold for status; and not so much content that improves realism, historical accuracy, etc. The same factors that ruined Rise of Flight are going to be more powerful in BoS.

Come to think of it, they're going to add a little tag to my forum avatar at DCS WW2 for supporting the KS. If it stops there I'm OK with it, but I don't want to be treated to special weapons and other crap. I supported the KS because I wanted a good sim, not status.

[Headshot]

The BoS marketing strategy is to get customer's money through the distribution of community status. Marketers study this stuff, and they have found out that some will pay inordinate sums of money for special identification in an online game. Spend more money, spend sooner, and you get more status. It's a nefarious strategy that makes Rise of Flight seem egalitarian. The end result is that the focus of BoS will be distracted from core content. There will be a financial incentive to add content that can be sold for status; and not so much content that improves realism, historical accuracy, etc. The same factors that ruined Rise of Flight are going to be more powerful in BoS.

Come to think of it, they're going to add a little tag to my forum avatar at DCS WW2 for supporting the KS. If it stops there I'm OK with it, but I don't want to be treated to special weapons and other crap. I supported the KS because I wanted a good sim, not status.

So ummm DCS good BOS bad. Ok I think I get it.

[gavagai]

So ummm DCS good BOS bad. Ok I think I get it.

Did I hit a tender spot?

[Dutch]

I think Gav makes a very good point here.

Selling product by attaching status to small factors, such as the 'get your face on one of the AI pilots' or 'have your voice in the game' if you pledge over a certain amount. Or indeed have a custom skin if you're a premium pre-order 'founder'.

It's all about status, and 'look at me, I spent more money than you'. Chequerboard streamers rather than plain ones. Not very healthy, imo.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Interesting points re added "status" for early supporters/contributors.

My my own feeling is whatever floats your boat is no nevermind to me, so long as we're all playing on a level field performance-wise. If someone gets extra guns, or a more powerful engine, etc. for paying in more money then that is plain wrong, IMHO.

As others have mentioned already, I'm attracted by the developer's attention to detail, realism, and graphics, and will pay accordingly.

[dburne]

Next thing you'll have to buy virtual fuel to make it run.

Crap, don't give them any ideas!

[ATAG_NakedSquirrel]

It sounded like weapon mods like gun-pods are unlocked through play from what I've been told. Don't hold me to it though; I might be wrong. The whole thing has been fairly vague since there's no store page beyond the pre-order packages.

I don't really like the 'unlock' concept, but some people really seem to get off on the idea. To each his own I suppose.

I don't care about the random nick-nacks games sell like streamers, banners, skins, ect. A pink plane with yellow polka-dot ribbons is shot down just as easily as a default one.

I just hope they don't try to go with the RoF business model. I'd rather not have to buy rockets and bombs for a IL-2, or have to buy every plane variant released. It would be madness to have to buy the bf109E-4, bf109E-4B, bf109E-4N, bf109E-4B/N, bf109E-4L/M/N/O/P and 'weapon mods' for all of them. It wouldn't be a sustainable business model for a WW2 sim.

We'll see what it looks like when it's released. Gotta wait for the horse to be born before you kick it to death.

[MadTommy]

It was the whole pre-order & rewards that I didn't feel comfortable about, I eventually got the impression you were simply paying a premium to get special status. Trying to clarify the difference between pre-order and regular purchase was not possible.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Yeah, there are a bunch of strange folks there talking really loud. I actually wish I wouldn't have preordered now after the latest update. They kept saying the pricing etc., would be different from ROF, but then I get an update saying I get my own gunpods for being a premium member. That makes me believe it will have the same sort of weapons mod crap ROF has where you have to purchase all the bits for your plane. Next thing you'll have to buy virtual fuel to make it run. The original IL2 model worked because the sim was good.

The folks at BoS will spend millions in advertising to try and get the initial sales, but can't handle someone asking about limitations with their game engine or any other criticism regarding their product. That just shows me the last thing they do is care about the customer. When you have the bean counter deleting posts that are addressing serious flaws with their product, you can tell exactly what they really care about.

No serious simulator makes you buy instrument gauges, gun sights, let alone different weapons for your plane. So now the premium guys get a different set of weapons than the folks that buy the game later. And they will probably have to grind for it or purchase the gun pods to receive them.

Thankfully, the original IL2 guys that are now making the DCS WWII stuff will have everyone playing the same game. And if you buy DCS WWII, you'll have the same game as everyone else. I know full well when I bought the DCS P51 let alone DCS WWII that when you own the P51 and I own the P51 we'll both have access to every bit of kit the plane had in the 1st place. It's just plain absurd not to.

You can always get a refund Bliss, better still gift it to Tommy. :)

Plus, 8000 people got that email, and i only saw 1 person posting sharing that view Tommy.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

well you can be reassured that the gun-pods will be available to every one after the official release. as a selling point... That's the ROF way. or 777Studios, nothing is for free, over head costs!

I hope your right Mastiff, but unless there was an issue with translation the English BoS pre-orders news is quite specific


The gift is the R7 weapon modification for Bf.109F-4 - 2х20mm MG151/20 gun pods that you’ll obtain in the game when it’s released. Note that this mod is unique and will only be available by preordering the game and joining the IL2BOS Founders.

I wonder if there are any speculators out there pre-ordering and waiting to sell their activation codes? What do you think a 20mm gun pod will be worth to a sim junkie in a years time???????

[Old_Canuck]

The BoS marketing strategy is to get customer's money through the distribution of community status. Marketers study this stuff, and they have found out that some will pay inordinate sums of money for special identification in an online game. Spend more money, spend sooner, and you get more status. It's a nefarious strategy that makes Rise of Flight seem egalitarian. The end result is that the focus of BoS will be distracted from core content. There will be a financial incentive to add content that can be sold for status; and not so much content that improves realism, historical accuracy, etc. The same factors that ruined Rise of Flight are going to be more powerful in BoS.

Come to think of it, they're going to add a little tag to my forum avatar at DCS WW2 for supporting the KS. If it stops there I'm OK with it, but I don't want to be treated to special weapons and other crap. I supported the KS because I wanted a good sim, not status.

Valid point gavagi. It makes sense that if you put the label "founder" on a forum member they're more likely to support the product because an attack on the product is an attack on their virtual prestige. You and a poster at ED opened my eyes to this and I won't be comfortable with such tags. The old saying that "sex sells" might have to give way to the new model of pandering to narcissists.

EDIT: just went back to ED and it turns out that you are the one who posted this same thinking but you spelled it out more clearly here and I agree with what you said - in both forums.

[trindade]

I pre-ordered both, and i'm quite excited with both products. We will have different scenarios and different aircrafts from two great Simulators producers. This is our hobby and we will have two new toys to play with so we should be happy, very happy! :)

[kopperdrake]

It sounded like weapon mods like gun-pods are unlocked through play from what I've been told. Don't hold me to it though; I might be wrong. The whole thing has been fairly vague since there's no store page beyond the pre-order packages.

I don't really like the 'unlock' concept, but some people really seem to get off on the idea. To each his own I suppose.

I don't care about the random nick-nacks games sell like streamers, banners, skins, ect. A pink plane with yellow polka-dot ribbons is shot down just as easily as a default one.

I just hope they don't try to go with the RoF business model. I'd rather not have to buy rockets and bombs for a IL-2, or have to buy every plane variant released. It would be madness to have to buy the bf109E-4, bf109E-4B, bf109E-4N, bf109E-4B/N, bf109E-4L/M/N/O/P and 'weapon mods' for all of them. It wouldn't be a sustainable business model for a WW2 sim.

We'll see what it looks like when it's released. Gotta wait for the horse to be born before you kick it to death.

I'm with you NakedSquirrel, on the whole 'unlock' concept. It has the potential to give more power to those that play longer. This kind of thing happens in other game types - World of Warcraft has it, and those that sit tied to their PC all day every day end up all-powerful. I would have hoped that flight sims of this calibre were above this type of brinkmanship.

For me, I do like the idea of buying extra product in a game - but for me it should be limited to aircraft in their entirety. If I want a Hurricane Mk1 then I want to be able to buy that aircraft, with everything modelled in detail, knowing that anyone else who has bought that aircraft has exactly the same options that I have when it comes to flying/equipping it. If people really want to pay for a 'special' skin, or anything else the equivalent of a flight sim vagazzle, then that's up to them...not my up of tea but it takes all sorts, and some need to shout about their presence louder than others, although I don't think a serious sim is the place for that kind of thing. It should be a level playing field. But if people can buy equipment that will create a better aircraft than others, or unlock features purely for having the time to sit and play for hours on end, then that is totally wrong and belongs in no game as far as I'm concerned. It's a dity way to game, and childish.

[MadTommy]

You can always get a refund Bliss, better still gift it to Tommy. :)

Plus, 8000 people got that email, and i only saw 1 person posting sharing that view Tommy.

How many do you see post on that forum without a gold premium purchase tag? Pretty much no one. Or how many of the 8000 cared to post? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but it is lost on me.

I'm quite happy to be the one who is not a sucker. Luckily I was never into IL2 and therefore don't have a fan mentality that so many seem struck with.

It is totally lost on me how wanting to know the purchase price of a product was such an odd thing before making a decision to buy it as a pre-order.... making you pay for beta access is a neat trick, but i'm a bit long in the tooth to go for that.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

How is anyone being made to pay? nobody has to pay anything if they don't want to, were you made to pay your $95 for DCS44? its a choice, fairly laid out and straight forward same as DCS, want to wait till release and then choose? thats fine too.

I dont see how im a sucker for wanting to help flight sim development, iam i a sucker too for pledging into the DSC44 KS?

The price is pretty much straight forward if you just look into it, of course the release price is going to be less than the early access beta, i know that, most people know it, i even offered to make up the difference for you.

I paid and i would expect most paid because they wanted to help development and get their hands on BOS early, nobody is being forced to do anything, nothing sneaky about it.

Is Luthier being sneaky offering manuals and t-shirts to get people to pay more? or asking for extra for early alpha access? i don't think so, hes doing his best to get funds to create a flight sim that we all will want to play, and i dont have a problem with people paying thier own money to fund a hobby they enjoy, some, lots have paid over $250 into the KS, way over the odds for a flight sim wouldn't you say? are they even bigger suckers? nope, not to me, its their money and if they can afford it and it helps get the sim funded, then thats great!

What confuses me Tommy, is on one hand your fine paying your $95 for DCS44 that wont even be in alpha for another 5 months and released in over a year, but your a sucker if you pay $90 for BOS that you can play a early beta in 2 weeks and the release in 6 months.
Do you know what the retail price of DSC44 is going to be and are you not concerned your going to lose money?

Why not just support both sims? thats what im doing, or if you cant, fine, but nobody is being sneaky or a sucker here.

I hope you change your mind Tommy, i mean you no offense and think it will be a pity if you decide not to join in with the BOS beta over what you call being sneaky and what prob going to be around $20 difference in price between early beta and release.

[ATAG_Bliss]

How is anyone being made to pay? nobody has to pay anything if they don't want to, were you made to pay your $95 for DCS44? its a choice, fairly laid out and straight forward same as DCS, want to wait till release and then choose? thats fine too.

I dont see how im a sucker for wanting to help flight sim development, iam i a sucker too for pledging into the DSC44 KS?

The price is pretty much straight forward if you just look into it, of course the release price is going to be less than the early access beta, i know that, most people know it, i even offered to make up the difference for you.

I paid and i would expect most paid because they wanted to help development and get their hands on BOS early, nobody is being forced to do anything, nothing sneaky about it.

Is Luthier being sneaky offering manuals and t-shirts to get people to pay more? or asking for extra for early alpha access? i don't think so, hes doing his best to get funds to create a flight sim that we all will want to play, and i dont have a problem with people paying thier own money to fund a hobby they enjoy, some, lots have paid over $250 into the KS, way over the odds for a flight sim wouldn't you say? are they even bigger suckers? nope, not to me, its their money and if they can afford it and it helps get the sim funded, then thats great!

What confuses me Tommy, is on one hand your fine paying your $95 for DCS44 that wont even be in alpha for another 5 months and released in over a year, but your a sucker if you pay $90 for BOS that you can play a early beta in 2 weeks and the release in 6 months.
Do you know what the retail price of DSC44 is going to be and are you not concerned your going to lose money?

Why not just support both sims? thats what im doing, or if you cant, fine, but nobody is being sneaky or a sucker here.

I hope you change your mind Tommy, i mean you no offense and think it will be a pity if you decide not to join in with the BOS beta over what you call being sneaky and what prob going to be around $20 difference in price between early beta and release.

I can't honestly believe you can compare the difference between these 2 models as anything remotely the same. On one hand, we pay $40 and get the entire sim. That means every ounce of gameplay elements, every ounce of airplanes made, every ounce of kit that comes with a plane, the maps, the loadouts, the cockpits, the weapons,.., everything is exactly the same. That means the game you are playing is 100% identical to the game I'm playing. I may get a T-shirt, a printed manual, and even extra copies of the game to give out, but that game I give out will be the exact same one I'm playing. That means the flight sim I paid for is 100% exactly the same, and I have access to the same exact bits of kit for my plane as EVERYONE else that bought the sim does.

When you introduce different bits of kit for sale that separates your game as different as another user's game, especially something like weapons, things that should have been part of the game in the 1st place, it turns that particular game into a pay to win scenario, or should I say, a pay to be even with the next guy scenario. That is the worst possible thing you could have for any serious flight sim. The fact that BoS seems to be following the same crap ROF pulled off is disgusting to me. I completely understand Tommy's sentiments and why he said them.

If you think having to buy or having to grind to gain access to things such as cockpit gauges, the various gun sights, gun pods, rear gunners, a piece of armor for the pilot, or any other crap they can think of to sell is in any way proper or in anyway good for the customer, I don't know what to tell you. All that stuff does is make your game very expensive to the consumer and making consumers stop paying for it and leaving. Everyone praises ROF for it's feeling of flight, and how smooth it is, yet when you look online any time of day there's generally more people playing on our server for a supposedly broken POS game than ALL of ROF servers combined. This is 4 years into the release of a "supposedly" amazing sim. There are soo many ROF players online that have long left the game, many of which for what I said above. You get sick and tired of having to buy a weapon or a cockpit gauge, or a particular scarf, pistol, flaregun, "insert w/e other crap they sell" when the core issues never get addressed.

Just picture what old IL2 was like 4 years after it's release. Communities flourishing everywhere (and still are) 1000 people online everyday (HL to the max) modders working left and right in creating content for the sandbox that IL2 was/is. What I'm trying to say is the old IL2 survived, and sold more copies, and was/is the most popular combat sim of all time because it was good. Nickle and diming people so there's a big difference between what you or I will own as to a flight sim is just plain retarded. I bought into BoS, just like you, to support the genre, and because we were told the business model is going to be different than ROF. Well you can imagine my surprise when, as a founder, I have access to a weapon on my plane that only founders will have access to, right off the bat, separating my copy of the game to those that didn't preorder.

That is just wrong and isn't even in the same solar system for a comparison to the other WWII title that gives you a copy of a game manual, or a T-shirt, that will in no way, shape, or form change my game from the game anyone else bought. If you can't see that, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. And judging by the amount of people obviously not knowing about the whole ROF way of doing business, their complaints on the forums, their posts being deleted etc., most of which coming from founders, I truly feel sorry for the old IL2 hands that are used to the sandbox environment of IL2. They have no idea just what they are getting into, and it appears you don't either.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Bliss, if there is one thing i do know, its you haven't brought BOS to support the development.

[jaydee]

Im in ! I was in for IL2,I was in for COD when it was unplayable for lots,I was in for WT, until(in my opinion) it turned out to be a money making,upgraded version of IL2(with great graphics) !
Im in for TF's great enhancement of COD ! Im in for BOS and see what they are going to deliver to us !..Im in for DCS WW2 and paid money for something I haven't even seen yet !
But then that's just me,my Flightsimming glass is half full at the moment and I don't give a shit whats happened before with whomever ! NEW sims coming, IM IN ! ~S~

[MadTommy]

How is anyone being made to pay? nobody has to pay anything if they don't want to, were you made to pay your $95 for DCS44? its a choice, fairly laid out and straight forward same as DCS, want to wait till release and then choose? thats fine too.

I dont see how im a sucker for wanting to help flight sim development, iam i a sucker too for pledging into the DSC44 KS?

The price is pretty much straight forward if you just look into it, of course the release price is going to be less than the early access beta, i know that, most people know it, i even offered to make up the difference for you.

I paid and i would expect most paid because they wanted to help development and get their hands on BOS early, nobody is being forced to do anything, nothing sneaky about it.

Is Luthier being sneaky offering manuals and t-shirts to get people to pay more? or asking for extra for early alpha access? i don't think so, hes doing his best to get funds to create a flight sim that we all will want to play, and i dont have a problem with people paying thier own money to fund a hobby they enjoy, some, lots have paid over $250 into the KS, way over the odds for a flight sim wouldn't you say? are they even bigger suckers? nope, not to me, its their money and if they can afford it and it helps get the sim funded, then thats great!

What confuses me Tommy, is on one hand your fine paying your $95 for DCS44 that wont even be in alpha for another 5 months and released in over a year, but your a sucker if you pay $90 for BOS that you can play a early beta in 2 weeks and the release in 6 months.
Do you know what the retail price of DSC44 is going to be and are you not concerned your going to lose money?

Why not just support both sims? thats what im doing, or if you cant, fine, but nobody is being sneaky or a sucker here.

I hope you change your mind Tommy, i mean you no offense and think it will be a pity if you decide not to join in with the BOS beta over what you call being sneaky and what prob going to be around $20 difference in price between early beta and release.

I'll try and explain my view..

BoS put their game up for pre-order, DCS WW:II asked for backing via kickstarter. These are fundamentally different in my opinion. The reason i backed DCS without hesitation is I had the feeling without the kickstarter being successful the game would not be made, I did not feel me pre-purchasing BoS or not as making any difference and I do not believe pre-ordering made me a backer.. i saw that as just marketing. You may disagree with this.. but that is the fundamental difference i saw between the two.

I also have a lot of faith and history with ED & DCS hence backing them was a no brainer. The release date of both sims has no influence on me over which to back prior of release.

I've owned RoF from the day it was released in 2009. I bought it as a standard sim, paid for the 5 or so planes. In the course of it development and subsequent take over by 777 I never actually had an issue with its pricing.. or as i thought of it, it's funding. I basically was happy to buy the planes and a select few gauge packs, but i never bought the extra guns or scarfs etc. At the time flight sims were far and few between, I played DCS and that was it, there was nothing really about that was upto the standard I wanted. (Il2 & Falcon4 were dated, CloD was not out, Wings of Prey was shit). They did what they needed to make the sim, that is fine.

Now BoS is announced... they announce the pre-order pricing and say they will only tell us the retail pricing structure once the pre-order is finished... that sends off, in my head, alarms bells.. big ones. To me that is NOT being upfront about the pricing. It leads me to one assumed conclusion.. they don't want to tell us the retail pricing because it will stop people pre-ordering. I try and have this assumption either confirmed or rebuffed by asking these questions on their forums.. I don't get an answer, and leave feeling pretty pissed off with the response by certain members, not least one of their moderators. I don't want alpha access full stop and i don't want to pay for beta access, which i am used to getting as a matter of course and i certainly don't want to pay for forum tags & extra weapons. And now we have a much bigger DCS with numerous 3rd part projects & with a WWII mod, CloD & RoF.. all in competition with BoS for my time...I can live without a Ryanair model WWII sim right now, its not the only kid on the block.
:)

As far as I'm concerned I don't want to pay for a sim that is not upfront about it pricing and structure.. this is not the same as accusing them of being dishonest or lying to me, as was made out on their forums.. they are just not stating their position prior to the pre-purchase finishing which puts me in a position where I feel uncomfortable about the whole deal.. hence why I now wont touch this project with a barge pole until it is released and reviewed and the pricing is clear.

I hope it succeeds and is a really good sim, if that is the case they will have my money/backing after release. If its another Wings of Prey with a RoF price structure I'll be disappointed but happy I stayed away.

[gavagai]

Bliss, if there is one thing i do know, its you haven't brought BOS to support the development.

Bliss bought the premium edition.

In principle I don't mind paying for additional aircraft. What rubbed me the wrong way in RoF was that throughout 2009, 2010, and 2011, they told us that we should keep "supporting" in order to see the FM fixes many had been waiting for. The end of 2011 came, they revised two FMs, and the 2012 road map said more would come. Later in 2012, Jason starts posting in many threads that FM reviews were no longer plan and would not happen for a long, long time, if ever. I "supported" with several hundred dollars and got strung along like a sucker. Of course it's about time and money, but it's also a matter of priorities. The refusal to allow qualified aeronautical engineers and programmers to work for *free* to help with the FM issues is arrogant and obtuse.

Before you say it, I am well aware that people bitch about trifling FM issues. The whole subject is tainted with idiotic discussions. But what we have in Rise of Flight is comparable to the A6M Zero running down the F6F Hellcat, and not just for one or two aircraft, but for many. Would anyone stand for that in a WW2 sim? Would the developer throw up his hands and say "it's all subjective?" You don't see me complaining about FMs in DCS or here at ATAG. Both communities/developers recognize that FMs are and should always be a WIP, always open to improvement and adjustment. Whenever someone comments about the P-51 FM, yo-yo is there to explain and discuss; he does not try to shut people down, even when their posts are quite simple-minded or silly.

So, a BoS preorder is just out of the question for me. If I see the sim reach a point of modest maturity *without* the same glaring discrepancies of Rise of Flight, I will consider buying it.

[Headshot]

Must say all the negativity on this forum is starting to get to me. It seems that a few blokes don't like the thought of any competition with DCS. They only started having issue after kick start was announced. The thing is your are killing my buzz. I was really looking forward to BOS. Now I not sure I wish to discus sims any longer.

I'm not over on the DCS forum picking the sh*t out of every thing. I have played DCS modules (payed separately for each module) and enjoyed them but not as much as COD. There are some things that could do with work and I'm hopefully they'll be fixed. Of the games I've played none are perfect (I alway stuck by COD with the good and bad) and if I decide I don't like it I will go to another title. I do so without bringing down those who do enjoy the game.

Ask your selfs who are you trying to help. I only see this discussion doing damage to BOS and I for one see that as harming the flight sim community, not helping your own course.

[PFT_Endy]

I don't get that kind of thinking Headshot. What you're saying is that whenever anyone says something bad about BoS "features" or bad stuff in it that can be observed even now then he must be a hater. Let's be objective - if BoS does something poorly it is open to criticism. You can't just hide bad stuff with "shoosh, let's not talk about it because that's being negative".

Also, so far BOS didn't show all that much of the good stuff which would be important to many people on this forum, very little of FM, no DM etc etc. So far it's all fluff, pretty graphics and pretty much nothing else. You can't seriously expect people to be fapping about it here when the game is expected to be worse than CloD in the important aspects like FM, DM, cockpits etc. with additional uncertainty as to the payment model and "pay to win" or "grind for" gadgets or their treatment of difficult questions like the one about object limit, censoring and deleting posts etc. etc.
That's also the precise reason why people are so hyped about DCS WWII, especially those that were able to try the mustang. Having a full fidelity WWII flight sim with FMs like in the pony is a wet dream for many enthusiasts and so much better than what BoS has to offer, especially that it showed very little to compete in these areas.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that you'll see people crazy about BoS on the BoS forum but here or on DCS forums not so much, for all the different reasons.

[Tomsk]

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that you'll see people crazy about BoS on the BoS forum but here or on DCS forums not so much, for all the different reasons.

It seems to me that the operative phrase when it comes to these upcoming releases is "we don't know for sure". We like the DCS P-51D mustang, will the new planes be as good? We hope so, we have good reason to think so, but we don't know for sure. Will DCS WWII work well as a multiplayer platform? We hope so, but we don't know for sure. Will BoS have realistic flight & damage models? We don't know for sure. Will the business model for BoS be sim-friendly? We don't know for sure.


I don't get that kind of thinking Headshot. What you're saying is that whenever anyone says something bad about BoS "features" or bad stuff in it that can be observed even now then he must be a hater.

I suspect what Headshot is saying is that we probably shouldn't shoot down BoS before it's even left the drawing board ..

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

From what I see for what its worth:

We all know what the RoF business model is, and we can where they plan to get revenue from with BoS..However I'm not entirely sure it will introduce a 'Pay to win' scenario..

These blasted Gunpods that everyone is ranting about, you get 15mm anyway. you CAN pay and get the 20mm variant if you so wish but would you want them? unless your ground pounding I wouldn't want any gunpods hanging from underside me because your take away any advantage with manoeuvrability you have especially in the 109.

You know in RL everything was available to these pilots within reason. Did they take them? No..why? because of what I've mentioned above

It will not be the case as far as I can make out that your paying for a revi or certain gauges. It will be the case that if you want certain weapons then you have the opportunity to purchase them but each to their own if you want to fly around with them..I'm pretty sure it the difference in handling and the factors implemented will be hugely different then taking a 109 with gunpods in the original il2 :D

In a whole I think its all getting blown out of proportion a bit. You also have to take into account what options you will have server side by disabling certain payloads again like the original series had..

At the end of the day I think a lot of us are jumping on a bandwagon because DCS has now been brought up yet we know absolutely nothing about what it will be like in a MP environment, likewise we don't know what BoS's DM,FM or any Options they will give us either..

*EDIT*

JW just posted this

It's not Free2PLay like ROF.

- We will focus on theatres with the occasional a la carte plane released.

- You cannot purchase plane mods like in ROF and any plane mods you earn are historical in nature. This is not WT.

- The gunpods were given as a gift to our most dedicated customers who took a chance and bought in early. We appreciate the suppo

[Tomsk]

JW just posted this

It's not Free2PLay like ROF.

- We will focus on theatres with the occasional a la carte plane released.
- You cannot purchase plane mods like in ROF and any plane mods you earn are historical in nature. This is not WT.
- The gunpods were given as a gift to our most dedicated customers who took a chance and bought in early. We appreciate the suppo

Yup, on this thread which I (perhaps foolishly) started: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1566-bos-business-model-similar-rof/

Which was new information to me. Sounds good though, as I've said before I'm excited about both DCS WWII and IL2BoS - and this reply confirms that for me :)

[Logan]

I once started a thread at ROF about how much you spend on it. There is a place on their website that shows you what you ordered and how much it cost. So I added mine up to around 345.00 US over a almost 2 year time frame it worked out to like 17 bucks a month. Not bad as long as you don't look at the whole total. So I posted the question in the forum because I wondered if I was the only crazy one that spent that much. People posted back their amounts and it was a civil thread. JW locked it down quick fast and in a hurry because he said it could lead to someone getting nasty.? I know thats not the reason, if people were posting total amounts you could start to get a picture of the income going to ROF. I still fly it, but I don't buy anything since seeing my total. I support DCS 44 and BOS as well as Cliffs. At first I didn't want anything to do with BOS after hearing about the "unlocking" in SP. I posted on our board something like "Next we will have power ups and health packs you can fly through" But I went ahead and bought it after all, so I'm glad its not a pay per parts or guns like ROF is.

[Old_Canuck]

@ Headshot - maybe the reason you see "negativity" on this forum is because negative and positive opinions are allowed to survive as long as the poster is respectful about it. On the other hand some forums might seem positive on every visit because criticisms are deleted minutes after they appear. That's what free speech is about. On DCS forum, I get a kick out of Yo Yo's jokes about the former repressive regime he used to live under. He seems to relish free discussion. Regarding BoS I have no opinion on it because I haven't seen the finished product yet. Haven't seen the finished product for many of DCS products either but I'll throw what little money there is available towards it because of a good experience with their previous offerings. Hope you didn't find this too negative.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Tommy, i understand your point, i don't agree with it but its understood. :)

Im glad Jason posted what he did, so now can we please stop the pay to win/pay for fuel misinformation.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Tommy, i understand your point, i don't agree with it but its understood. :)

Im glad Jason posted what he did, so now can we please stop the pay to win/pay for fuel misinformation.

There was no misinformation. Everything I've said about the ROF business model was correct.

I'm glad he posted that. Now let's hope we can also get them to make it so you don't have to "grind to win" certain aircraft parts and mods. For those of us that don't like SP, it's a pretty terrible decision to have to play x amount of hours or x amount of wins in SP to earn a mod, weapon, piece of armor, scarf, streamer, instrument gauge, etc that we should have from the get go.

Lets hope they rethink that one as well.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I once started a thread at ROF about how much you spend on it. There is a place on their website that shows you what you ordered and how much it cost. So I added mine up to around 345.00 US over a almost 2 year time frame it worked out to like 17 bucks a month. Not bad as long as you don't look at the whole total. So I posted the question in the forum because I wondered if I was the only crazy one that spent that much. People posted back their amounts and it was a civil thread. JW locked it down quick fast and in a hurry because he said it could lead to someone getting nasty.? I know thats not the reason, if people were posting total amounts you could start to get a picture of the income going to ROF. I still fly it, but I don't buy anything since seeing my total. I support DCS 44 and BOS as well as Cliffs. At first I didn't want anything to do with BOS after hearing about the "unlocking" in SP. I posted on our board something like "Next we will have power ups and health packs you can fly through" But I went ahead and bought it after all, so I'm glad its not a pay per parts or guns like ROF is.

If it doesn't tow the line, Jason deletes it. Thank god some developers actually like to hear concerns and criticisms.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Bliss, having re-read the a lot of your recent posts on this and other forums about Jason/BOS/ROF, its quite worrying to see you view isn't just a opinion on a flight sim forum about the pro's and con's of certain sims, it seems to be a real life personal hate of Jason and his products, its just looks nasty, personal and to be honest a bit disturbing to witness.

Going to give it a break talking about this stuff here, because its getting uncomfortable and a bit weird.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Bliss, having re-read the a lot of your recent posts on this and other forums about Jason/BOS/ROF, its quite worrying to see you view isn't just a opinion on a flight sim forum about the pro's and con's of certain sims, it seems to be a real life personal hate of Jason and his products, its just looks nasty, personal and to be honest a bit disturbing to witness.

Going to give it a break talking about this stuff here, because its getting uncomfortable and a bit weird.

Furbs - It's very typical of people like you to attack the poster instead of the message. When you find something I said that is untrue or unwarranted by all means rebut it. But if you're just here to get upset because the facts I speak of upset you enough to personally attack me, then you are better off gone from here. Maybe go back and read what I've said on any forum, including this one, and find some information that is not true. That is the difference between me and you.

This is the exact reason why you find me responding to EXACTLY what you say, but you on the other hand never respond to what I say. Instead you'll misdirect, go off topic, and now try to attack the person. In real life you'll learn that you'll lose a conversation pretty easily if you are unable to have a discussion without throwing your toys all over the ground. I realize this is tough for you as that's exactly what you did for years on the banana forums. But realize, if the only thing you can do to counter any of the truths I speak of, is to throw a temper tantrum, then I agree you do need a break.

Get well.

[Dutch]

Going to give it a break talking about this stuff here, because its getting uncomfortable and a bit weird.

Well you shouldn't Furbs.
It might be uncomfortable and it may even be weird, but the opinions you read here are unfettered from any consideration of the developer's opinions, or from any advertising considerations presented by other forums.
This is one of the few places where you can actually say what you think and not get warning points, or bans, for saying what you think.
This is probably the best place to give our honest opinions and thoughts on any sim/game, and long may it continue.

As you know, I'm a gold bonded bona fide pre-ordering customer of Jason's latest concoction. I have no hesitation in saying that I did that because I expect to be it's first critic. The RoF Channel map was a disaster, and probably contributed to the take-over, oops sorry, the 'partnership' which we now see in 1CGS.

Rise of Flight was always a game, not a Sim. It looks good, but has no substance. Be that as it may, I had many an enjoyable evening flying on various servers, but the capacity of the game to change and provide further interest was never there.

That's why the RoF servers are now a deadzone.

I seriously do look forward to Flying a Sturmovik, in the snow, over a modern graphical landscape, but I have a sneaking suspicion that that is where my interest will begin and end. With a nostalgia trip.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Furbs - It's very typical of people like you to attack the poster instead of the message. When you find something I said that is untrue or unwarranted by all means rebut it. But if you're just here to get upset because the facts I speak of upset you enough to personally attack me, then you are better off gone from here. Maybe go back and read what I've said on any forum, including this one, and find some information that is not true. That is the difference between me and you.

This is the exact reason why you find me responding to EXACTLY what you say, but you on the other hand never respond to what I say. Instead you'll misdirect, go off topic, and now try to attack the person. In real life you'll learn that you'll lose a conversation pretty easily if you are unable to have a discussion without throwing your toys all over the ground. I realize this is tough for you as that's exactly what you did for years on the banana forums. But realize, if the only thing you can do to counter any of the truths I speak of, is to throw a temper tantrum, then I agree you do need a break.

Get well.

No temper tantrum here Bliss, no toys on the floor, im 41 and learned plenty in life, some epic wins and some time right at the bottom, i don't get upset at anything written in flight sim forums, cheers.

What i feel uncomfortable with is seeing you attack BOS/Jason at every possible moment you can at what seems a personal level, and i think im just giving you another opportunity to carry on the same attack you have done a hundred times with out the least possible chance you could be moved from your opinion, on BOS your a closed book Bliss, BOS is just ROF with WW2 skins(your words).
I also feel uncomfortable trying to defend a sim that is still 6 months away from release and i don't even have my hands on a beta, but you feel fine attacking it and have already decided how good it is, what it will or wont be like, the pricing, mods and level of FM/DM and what the devs think of their customers, so its hard to have a debate.

Ive said before, if the released game has terrible flaws, isn't up to the promise of the developers(thats the key phrase) then i will be first in the que to complain, but not 6 months before.

[ATAG_Bliss]

No temper tantrum here Bliss, no toys on the floor, im 41 and learned plenty in life, some epic wins and some time right at the bottom, i don't get upset at anything written in flight sim forums, cheers.

What i feel uncomfortable with is seeing you attack BOS/Jason at every possible moment you can at what seems a personal level, and i think im just giving you another opportunity to carry on the same attack you have done a hundred times with out the least possible chance you could be moved from your opinion, on BOS your a closed book Bliss, BOS is just ROF with WW2 skins(your words).
I also feel uncomfortable trying to defend a sim that is still 6 months away from release and i don't even have my hands on a beta, but you feel fine attacking it and have already decided how good it is, what it will or wont be like, the pricing, mods and level of FM/DM and what the devs think of their customers, so its hard to have a debate.

Ive said before, if the released game has terrible flaws, isn't up to the promise of the developers(thats the key phrase) then i will be first in the que to complain, but not 6 months before.

Well I'm proud of you Furbs. This was the 1st time you actually responded to something I actually said instead of trying to take a direct or indirect jab at me.

But the problem I see with you and your opinion is when I state facts those become attacks in your eyes. Instead of addressing what FACTS are incorrect you come back and say I'm making some sort of attack. So again, I'll say the same thing I just said before. Get to reading this forum or any other (I have over 2000 posts on the ROF boards) and find one post where I've stated something not correct. It'll be a long road for you and maybe you'll come back with the same argument that stating those truths are "personal attacks". I'm sorry that you take them personally. But facts are just that facts.

I've stated numerous times that Jason deletes, locks, or closes threads that make his sim look bad. Whether that be through comparisons, talking about other sims, or just straight up criticism. He can't take any of it. That is a fact. You can think I'm attacking him all day long, even on a personal level if you wish, but anyone that has been around the ROF forum, or now the BoS forum for any amount of time, also knows this to be true. I don't agree with that at all. That leaves and has left an impression on many others that see it as well. You can even see an example of it by what Logan posted above in this very thread.

The ROF business model I talked about earlier is also correct. It's facts. It's also something I don't agree with. No serious sim has ever not given it's customers all the bit of kit that come with the plane etc., as any other player that owns the same plane. Maybe the problem is I like flight sims and ROF turned out to be a game instead? I don't really know. But as I stated before, a MP only player should not have to grind and spend countless hours in SP to have to unlock features of a plane that should be there in the 1st place.. If you think they should, or you agree with that, so be it. But don't come here and try to attack me because just because something like that is a big deal to me, and I know full well it's a big deal to many other "flight simmers" as well.

So once again, if you take my truths as personal, then I think you are the one with the problem. I will keep saying them until you or anyone else can tell me exactly what part of what I have said is incorrect regardless if it upsets people that can't rebut in in the 1st place. And the reason you or anyone else can't is because I already know what I've said is correct. I started the SYN server on ROF. I was a beta tester in ROF. I know exactly what capabilities we are losing using the DN engine, and I know exactly what type of "game" we are going to get, and it's going to be a far cry from anything IL2 that Oleg/Ilya have made on a huge level. Maybe, again, you won't care that we are going backwards to the IL2 we have now in terms of limitations, capabilities, and what not. But I sure do.

But if you don't believe me or if you feel so strongly in differing of opinion of mine, then we should put a wager on it. I'll gladly put my money where my mouth is. When I post up asking about the object limitations etc., and watch my post disappear in a thread about the object limitations in the 1st place, that's when I already know those aren't addressed, and Jason thinks any new player seeing such a thing (aka a barren wasteland to fly around in like we have in ROF in a WWII sim) they would probably second guess their purchase. So once again, think what you want, but you might want to actually "read" what I've written and find any untruth's in any of it. Then the next time you want to discuss something you'll be able to try to discuss how I'm wrong instead of trying to attack me for discussing the facts in the 1st place.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Oh and here's the post that was deleted concerning the object count / game limitations. The reason I posted in the 1st place is because some of the posters had no idea just what was possible in MG's IL2s. They were ROF only players etc., so I not only gave an example of how many objects I use, for instance, but a few video's showing Clod and old IL2 that were simply entirely filled with objects and people playing on them. That is also why I asked a ROF mission maker to make something similar. The reason you see these sort of acrobatic or any other video of IL2 showing maps with all those objects is because it was the norm. The game handles it. You will not find 1 single video of ROF doing the same. And that is simply because the DN engine can't even remotely come close to handling 10% of what you can do in MGs IL2s.

But I guess this post made ROF/BOS look bad, even though it's 100% accurate so it gets deleted. A developer that can't talk about these things is either extremely worried because it makes them look bad or would rather not talk about them in the 1st place because they know their game can't come close to the same. I'd say it's a combination of both.

Please show me the last time Ilya / Oleg deleted someone's criticism of their product, let alone a non-intrusive post about it, and I'll eat my shorts.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5947/qiwb.png

[Black]

To be honest I like whats happening with BoS in a way... it hopefully makes the whole game fail and we can all enjoy the upcoming DCS, a game that is made by guys who deserve our support! :recon:

[Mysticpuma]

I posted something like this on the BoS forums and it got deleted, most likely because I mentioned Team Fusion?;

"When it comes down.to it, I think across the whole community it's obvious that everyone has their favourite Sim.
My love of the genre started with the original IL2 and then with Cliffs of Dover. Although it got a bad press (and deservedly so) the latest patches from Team Fusion have brought it up to.speed and it's a real joy to fly. I have the Iron version of RoF (but have flown.it maybe 4 times). I have invested in the Premium version of BoS and also the Alpha Tier 4 of DCS WW2. No-one made me.invest, it was my own free choice. I'm glad I am.on the ATAG forums as I feel I am.allowed reasonable free speech as long as I am.not disrespectful nor antagonistic.

The things is, it's my choice to decide what I will try and maybe I'll end up loving BoS and hating DCS...I can't tell until.I have played them.both.

When it comes down to it and when all.is said and done, I have a hobby, not an agenda....I can make my own choice what I like to play...it seems pointless to me this constant bickering when it's easy enough to just wait and see what happens.
As long as I get my P-47 in DCS/CloD or BoS...I will be a happy chappy...even if it costs me.a few pounds to kit her out...she's worth it! ;) "

So can we just give this a rest please guys, it's not constructive, it gets no-one anywhere other than another thread locked :(

MP

[ATAG_Bliss]

I posted this on the BoS forums and it got deleted;

"When it comes down.to it, I think across the whole community it's obvious that everyone has their favourite Sim.
My love of the genre started with the original IL2 and then with Cliffs of Dover. Although it got a bad press (and deservedly so) the latest patches from Team Fusion have brought it up to.speed and it's a real joy to fly. I have the Iron version of RoF (but have flown.it maybe 4 times). I have invested in the Premium version of BoS and also the Alpha Tier 4 of DCS WW2. No-one made me.invest, it was my own free choice. I'm glad I am.on the ATAG forums as I feel I am.allowed reasonable free speech as long as I am.not disrespectful nor antagonistic.

The things is, it's my choice to decide what I will try and maybe I'll end up loving BoS and hating DCS...I can't tell until.I have played them.both.

When it comes down to it and when all.is said and done, I have a hobby, not an agenda....I can make my own choice what I like to play...it seems pointless to me this constant bickering when it's easy enough to just wait and see what happens.
As long as I get my P-47 in DCS/CloD or BoS...I will be a happy chappy...even f it costs me.a few pounds to kit her out...she's worth it! ;)

So can we just give this a rest please guys, it's not constructive, it gets no-one anywhere other than another thread locked :(

MP

Good idea MP

I apologize for the bickering. We are all in wait and see mode for both sims. I really do hope at least one will be a worthy successor to what we have now.

:salute:

[gavagai]

- You cannot purchase plane mods like in ROF and any plane mods you earn are historical in nature. This is not WT.

"Historical in nature" is a slippery phrase. According to Rise of Flight that means anything that was tried out once, and not necessarily in combat.

[baronWastelan]

There are a lot of good reasons to have doubts about the "other project". The Imperial attitude of the people involved is a legitimate concern, and those people are not "off limits" since they put themselves out there.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I posted something like this on the BoS forums and it got deleted, most likely because I mentioned Team Fusion?;

"When it comes down.to it, I think across the whole community it's obvious that everyone has their favourite Sim.
My love of the genre started with the original IL2 and then with Cliffs of Dover. Although it got a bad press (and deservedly so) the latest patches from Team Fusion have brought it up to.speed and it's a real joy to fly. I have the Iron version of RoF (but have flown.it maybe 4 times). I have invested in the Premium version of BoS and also the Alpha Tier 4 of DCS WW2. No-one made me.invest, it was my own free choice. I'm glad I am.on the ATAG forums as I feel I am.allowed reasonable free speech as long as I am.not disrespectful nor antagonistic.

The things is, it's my choice to decide what I will try and maybe I'll end up loving BoS and hating DCS...I can't tell until.I have played them.both.

When it comes down to it and when all.is said and done, I have a hobby, not an agenda....I can make my own choice what I like to play...it seems pointless to me this constant bickering when it's easy enough to just wait and see what happens.
As long as I get my P-47 in DCS/CloD or BoS...I will be a happy chappy...even if it costs me.a few pounds to kit her out...she's worth it! ;) "

So can we just give this a rest please guys, it's not constructive, it gets no-one anywhere other than another thread locked :(

MP

Agreed MP, sorry for my part in the usual malarkey.

Got to say im excited about the P47 in DCS Mystic, il even come train busting with you. :)

[Mysticpuma]

I'm hoping for Train busting missions, high alt escort missions for Bombers and excellent teamplay with a wngman as we Boom and Zoom those pesky Luftwaffe. I have to say my main concern is not being able to take off. Not because I wont learn the startup procedure but because I'll just be sitting there admiring the interior of my cockpit :)
I can imagine the comms already, "Hey Puma, got a problem with your engine"....."Puma...." ...."Puma..........." ..... " "Okay guys, we're going to have to leave Puma, he' only gone and glazed over....AGAIN!!"

:)

Please let the Alpha have the Jug!

Cheers, MP

[Headshot]

Guys my worry was not a persons rite to find fault and speak up but the obvious one sidedness.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Guys my worry was not a persons rite to find fault and speak up but the obvious one sidedness.

Yes, I'll admit I'm obviously biased, but that bias is warranted. We are going backwards. Unless you really get under the hood, per say, of flight sims, maybe you'll never understand. But Cliffs of Dover is 20x the game ROF is. It has 20x the capability, 20x the DM, 20x the graphics, the cockpits, the everything. If we were to compare the 2, which we'll get to compare the WWII title real quick, they won't be in the same league. This is why you can't even do a comparison on the BoS forums without your post being deleted or any other sort of criticism that way. It's because the 2 sims aren't even comparable to be honest.

I could write up a list 10+ pages long just in what we "can't" do in the mission builder for ROF compared to Cliffs. That's just in the mission builder of both games. And when you start seeing things like that, you start realizing how much less enthusiasm you have for a product. You start questioning how it's possible that Cliffs didn't continue on, when it's replacement doesn't come close to anything the original does.

So yeah, I'm one sided. I'm biased, etc., and so are many people here. And the reason is because we all know how much better, how much more capable, etc., what we have now will be in comparison. So when the game comes out, and I along with 1000's of other people used to how IL2 actually is, figure out they aren't really getting a title worthy of the IL2 name, a sandbox, a robust game engine etc., and start posting on the forum, and watching their posts all get deleted, you are going to see some really pissed off people.

So yeah, I'm one sided. I'm one sided in the same way in saying I would rather eat an orange than a pile of manure. I would rather drive an F40 than an Escort etc.. etc. I could go on. But as I said earlier, I'll wait and see. The only thing I can compare with are the current DN engine and the current Cliffs of Dover engine, and unless they make some significant improvements to the DN engine, we're in for a rather large shock.

[Tvrdi]

And the controversial marketing elitistic decision to limit one weapon mod just for founders is now up for vote and it seams most ppl doesnt like the idea. Well at least we have a poll. And I hope it will be a goner.

[Dutch]

And the controversial marketing elitistic decision to limit one weapon mod just for founders is now up for vote and it seams most ppl doesnt like the idea. Well at least we have a poll. And I hope it will be a goner.

Yes, and my post stating that I hadn't voted as 'the option should be in the game for all from the start' has been deleted by Mr. Williams. What a surprise.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

I didn't vote either..

TBH I couldn't care less what you can buy, win or get sent through the post with pink ribbons on (unless female...obviously!)

As long as all this shyte can be turned off server side so you restrict payloads I'm not bothered

[Headshot]

Yes, I'll admit I'm obviously biased, but that bias is warranted. We are going backwards. Unless you really get under the hood, per say, of flight sims, maybe you'll never understand. But Cliffs of Dover is 20x the game ROF is. It has 20x the capability, 20x the DM, 20x the graphics, the cockpits, the everything. If we were to compare the 2, which we'll get to compare the WWII title real quick, they won't be in the same league. This is why you can't even do a comparison on the BoS forums without your post being deleted or any other sort of criticism that way. It's because the 2 sims aren't even comparable to be honest.

I could write up a list 10+ pages long just in what we "can't" do in the mission builder for ROF compared to Cliffs. That's just in the mission builder of both games. And when you start seeing things like that, you start realizing how much less enthusiasm you have for a product. You start questioning how it's possible that Cliffs didn't continue on, when it's replacement doesn't come close to anything the original does.

So yeah, I'm one sided. I'm biased, etc., and so are many people here. And the reason is because we all know how much better, how much more capable, etc., what we have now will be in comparison. So when the game comes out, and I along with 1000's of other people used to how IL2 actually is, figure out they aren't really getting a title worthy of the IL2 name, a sandbox, a robust game engine etc., and start posting on the forum, and watching their posts all get deleted, you are going to see some really pissed off people.

So yeah, I'm one sided. I'm one sided in the same way in saying I would rather eat an orange than a pile of manure. I would rather drive an F40 than an Escort etc.. etc. I could go on. But as I said earlier, I'll wait and see. The only thing I can compare with are the current DN engine and the current Cliffs of Dover engine, and unless they make some significant improvements to the DN engine, we're in for a rather large shock.


I honestly don't understand why, if you dislike BOS so much why do you bother posting on the BOS forum and the IL-2 BOS site. It's like trying to get an F40 by hanging out at a ford Escort fan club and insulting their choices in vehicle (My wifes first car was a ford Escort panel van. An exelant, sturdy and fun car).

[ATAG_Bliss]

I didn't vote either..

TBH I couldn't care less what you can buy, win or get sent through the post with pink ribbons on (unless female...obviously!)

As long as all this shyte can be turned off server side so you restrict payloads I'm not bothered

Thats just the problem. You won't be able to pick and choose what to shut off.

You should see the people in that thread about the business model. Some guy actually said he's a MP player and he's looking forward to grinding for unlocks. Then has the audacity to say grind or not to grind is my choice. And that it's not game changing. Really?

So I'm sitting there thinking how fun it would be to fly an IL2 in this huge gaggle and then remembered that I won't have a rear gunner because I'm not about to grind in a flight sim for it. That's not game changing when others will have it? Eh?

I'm too disgusted to even post over there. Those people are so unbelievably blinded it's not even worth it.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I honestly don't understand why, if you dislike BOS so much why do you bother posting on the BOS forum and the IL-2 BOS site. It's like trying to get an F40 by hanging out at a ford Escort fan club and insulting their choices in vehicle (My wifes first car was a ford Escort panel van. An exelant, sturdy and fun car).

Dont understand why it's worse or what you are talking about? I don't like ROF for the reasons I already stated and if BoS is like ROF it will also be a failure. Again, don't try a Furbs here. Tell me what part of the message is wrong, not the poster. Tell me what I've said that's incorrect or you are simply following the same forum stunt in getting personally upset over facts?

You think customers of a game shouldn't try to make it better? Do you think customers of a game aren't entitled to be able to criticize? I hate to break this to you, but the entire world and the changes that have happened are because of groups of people bitching and doing something about it. You may be fine with mediocrity. You may be fine with going backwards in the evolution of flight simming. I am not. You may be fine with legitimate concerns being deleted and thrown under the carpet with zero, zip, nada explanation, but I am not. And it's a sad day that people like you aren't either.

[Headshot]

It's not ROF.

[ATAG_Bliss]

It's not ROF.

It's the ROF engine. So making new textures and new graphics for the same game engine, still results in the same types of limitations and problems the old one had. Why do you think the devs said the mission editor is exactly the same? Because it's the same game engine.

Do you not understand that? Someone could probably make a Focker look like a Tie Fighter, but that doesn't mean that somehow the game is going to support 1000's of them in a single server or w/e by changing the textures/meshes etc.

Answer this very simple question. Do you believe that the core issues with the Digital Nature engine that the ROF team have not been able to fix in the 4 years before it's release + the 4 years after it's release will somehow be able to be fixed in a single year all the while the team creates and models an entire WWII sim to boot? Well, if you do, kudos. Because simple logic and reasoning tells me otherwise.

[Headshot]

I'll wait and see. In the mean time I'll give the development team the respect they deserve. The same way I hope the DCS can make changes for the better with the extra funding they have received. They deserve support. If people don't then flight sims will suffer and developmental will be slowed.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I'll wait and see. In the mean time I'll give the development team the respect they deserve. The same way I hope the DCS can make changes for the better with the extra funding they have received. They deserve support. If people don't then flight sims will suffer and developmental will be slowed.

I agree with what you say, but I think you are confused about the development team bit. I have never bashed the developers and never will bash the people working in the trenches. But you bet I'll bash the salesman, the con artists, the bean counters, etc., whose whole purpose is marketing, making money, and spewing BS out of their mouths.

There's a big difference between the 2, as I hope you are aware. And when you have such an overbearing bean counter / salesman / producer / money man etc., that even goes to great lengths with deleting posts about truths or legitimate concerns of their product, you can probably see why just like Ubisoft did, that bean counter is making quite a bad name for himself. There's still people yelling to the moon about Ubisoft to give you an idea, and that whole mess was years ago.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Bliss, this is a serious question.

Why are you even considering buying BOS when its clearly something your not going to like?

You don't agree with practically anything about it, which is your opinion and that's fine, but why don't you just forget about it, you have the TM patch coming up that looks to be very good, then DCS44 alpha next year, why are you even thinking about pre-oredering.

Bliss, honestly im at a complete loss as to why you would want any part of BOS.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Bliss, this is a serious question.Why are you even considering buying BOS when its clearly something your not going to like?You don't agree with practically anything about it, which is your opinion and that's fine, but why don't you just forget about it, you have the TM patch coming up that looks to be very good, then DCS44 alpha next year, why are you even thinking about pre-oredering.Bliss, honestly im at a complete loss as to why you would want any part of BOS.

Furbs,In case you haven't noticed, BoS is supposed to be the new IL2. I have every intention of trying to make it that. And if you're fine that it's a far cry from what we already have, then that's your purogotive. I am not.

I want a sequel to IL2 badly. I want a sim that grows and grows both in community and in MP. Do you realize IL2 used to have 1000 people online everyday? Do I really have to explain why it did, what parts of the game made that possible etc? Do you not realize the only reason things ever get done is if enough people bitch about them?Case in point, a whole slew of people cried out over founder gun pods being founder only. They complained and guess what happened? They put up a poll asking if they should change it or not. What would happen if no one complained about it? Absolutely nothing.

The problem is not too many people know about the ROF limitations coming from IL2. They don't know about the MP issues, the FM issues, the object issues, the master browser issues etc. I'm in a unique situation having ran a server for both, having played both for years. Because I can guarantee you when some of the old IL2 hands start trying to do some of the things they been doing in both IL2 or IL2CloD, taking them for granted that the new title sharing the same IL2 name, won't do the stuff they want it to, people are going to line up to complain in numbers. And once people like you realize that those that complain, especially legitimate complaints, do so for change, just like the gunpod stuff then, people like yourself might begin to realize why the complaints in the 1st place. So until we get or have the same abilities we already have in current IL2, let alone 10+ year old IL2, I will continue to complain. I honestly wish you had the 1st clue about the core issues with ROF. You wouldn't be trying to belittle me in semantics and pointless dribble, you yourself would be trying to get it fixed as well.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Pointless dribble? it was a honest question.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Pointless dribble? it was a honest question.

And this response is my case in point. I answered it. And I shouldn't even of had to. But instead of acknowledging or understanding the answer, you choose to completely ignore the meat of the response and instead go back to picking the part out that has nothing to do with the question you asked in the 1st place.

You fail to mention or acknowledge any of my response except for this tiny bit you said. Like I said, semantics and pointless dribble from you always. Thanks for proving my point.

[Injerin]

Yeah, and the P51D is the "Cadillac" of WWII prop planes. There's soo many automatic features and controls etc.. Just wait until we get something a little more rustic to fly around in the DCS engine. It's going to be a royal PITA, but in a good way :D

But you want to see the fidelity of DCS, fly the A10. From your startup procedures, to the weapon sets, to all the other systems etc., it is like a flying encyclopedia of stuff to learn. DCS will probably be the 1st flight sim I could ever play SP in. And it's simply because there's so much immersion inside the cockpit and flight model itself, that what's going on around you is only secondary. To have a huge MP experience in that sort of fidelity and the concentration required, is going to be flat out insane..

Success!!! We have converted the Bliss-ter :) LOL... Yea the A10-C is the cats arse.

[Dutch]

Success!!! We have converted the Bliss-ter :) LOL... Yea the A10-C is the cats arse.

Also the Dog's Bollocks. :D

But in essence, the A-10C is a modern day IL2 Sturmovik. A ground pounding tank killing infantry massacring air to ground offensive platform. Wonder if what we're going to get from '1CGS' is going to come remotely close?

Never mind, I think I just answered my own question. :D

[Injerin]

Also the Dog's Bollocks. :D

But in essence, the A-10C is a modern day IL2 Sturmovik. A ground pounding tank killing infantry massacring air to ground offensive platform. Wonder if what we're going to get from '1CGS' is going to come remotely close?

Never mind, I think I just answered my own question. :D

All we can do at this point is speculate. :)

I've been reading alot of forums today and I feel that there are alot of people on the fence when it comes to flight sims. I guess some like it more complex some not (realism/arcade). I've read about the realism isn't realism and they are right, but realism means complex to the point of immersion IMO. I love the fact and hate it at the same time that I have to put alot of time into a sim with the learning curve of DCS A10-C....BUT in the end it is so rewarding. I'll put it this way.. War thunder might be a fun game but its Quake with wings and is basically a run and gun. If you spend six months learning the complexities of a plane and run a mission without getting shot or dead it so rewarding and the work/learning has paid off. Hell even landing one with major damage is a feat in its self :)

[Mysticpuma]

Nice post Injerin.
I was on the Alpha testing team for War Thunder and along with a few well known names we would regularly post updates to the Dev's explaining that the game didn't cater for realism due to icon.settings, Ai not having any failings, bi-planes chasing down Mustangs and P-47's or.109's and 190's. Endlessly we campaigned to get it changed, but slowly you could.see the route they were taking with the grind your way to the top using months (if not years) to do.so...or real.money!
At one point it was possible to test fly any aircraft in the game over a single map, but you could try them, see if you liked them and then consider whether it was what you would aim.to.purchase (a 'try before you fly' option).
They took this away and after much campaigning it became clear that this was done so.that if you bought your way through the ranking system, got the aircraft you wanted..but hated the FM/DM, then you'd have to grind your way through more tiers (tears!) to.another plane..with patience or money. They took.away the testing option for no good reason other than financial. I mean you couldn't use it online, you were just testing it out....and this was just one of many times 'veteran sim players offered years of advice only to be snubbed in favour of Airquake. I mean there were icons saying " Player 30,000ft"......not much chance.of a sneak attack.

The thing is some people really.enjoy this type of play. I mean I started my interest for only play with "Air Attack" and slowly realized it was a limited route and I wanted to play a 'proper' Sim and maybe these new WT players will.also progress onto harder games? It's just a possible route into this diverse Historical hobby we have.

Re. Injerin's previous post, I've had missions coming back from a long way over the enemy lines, with my P-47 shredded, oil.over the glass, smoking radial (but the Jug wont give in too easily (apart from one hit and the tail falls off in the IL2 series of old ;( )) but that sense f achievement, getting your aircraft back, calling it on comms, "Thunderbolt coming in hot at runway E7. No Flaps, can't see out of cockpit....wish me.luck guys...." and somehow you get it down and live to fight another day.....that's what I enjoy. Beating the odds!
So whether it be the original.Il2, CloD, BoS or DCS WW2 (which god bless them.has the Jug!) like I said before.....I don't have an agenda...I just have a hobby.
So let's embrace the whole simming community and make the most of all the advancements, theatres and comrades/team-mates and friends we can enjoy our hobby with.

Cheers, MP

[ATAG_Bliss]

Nice post Injerin.
I was on the Alpha testing team for War Thunder and along with a few well known names we would regularly post updates to the Dev's explaining that the game didn't cater for realism due to icon.settings, Ai not having any failings, bi-planes chasing down Mustangs and P-47's or.109's and 190's. Endlessly we campaigned to get it changed, but slowly you could.see the route they were taking with the grind your way to the top using months (if not years) to do.so...or real.money!
At one point it was possible to test fly any aircraft in the game over a single map, but you could try them, see if you liked them and then consider whether it was what you would aim.to.purchase (a 'try before you fly' option).
They took this away and after much campaigning it became clear that this was done so.that if you bought your way through the ranking system, got the aircraft you wanted..but hated the FM/DM, then you'd have to grind your way through more tiers (tears!) to.another plane..with patience or money. They took.away the testing option for no good reason other than financial. I mean you couldn't use it online, you were just testing it out....and this was just one of many times 'veteran sim players offered years of advice only to be snubbed in favour of Airquake. I mean there were icons saying " Player 30,000ft"......not much chance.of a sneak attack.

The thing is some people really.enjoy this type of play. I mean I started my interest for only play with "Air Attack" and slowly realized it was a limited route and I wanted to play a 'proper' Sim and maybe these new WT players will.also progress onto harder games? It's just a possible route into this diverse Historical hobby we have.

Re. Injerin's previous post, I've had missions coming back from a long way over the enemy lines, with my P-47 shredded, oil.over the glass, smoking radial (but the Jug wont give in too easily (apart from one hit and the tail falls off in the IL2 series of old ;( )) but that sense f achievement, getting your aircraft back, calling it on comms, "Thunderbolt coming in hot at runway E7. No Flaps, can't see out of cockpit....wish me.luck guys...." and somehow you get it down and live to fight another day.....that's what I enjoy. Beating the odds!
So whether it be the original.Il2, CloD, BoS or DCS WW2 (which god bless them.has the Jug!) like I said before.....I don't have an agenda...I just have a hobby.
So let's embrace the whole simming community and make the most of all the advancements, theatres and comrades/team-mates and friends we can enjoy our hobby with.

Cheers, MP

WT is a must have IMO. I think there's quite a few people, as we have all seen, that get a chance to hop in some aircraft without all the gear / hotas etc, and some of those want more. Those try to find more simulation type stuff. Lots of people hardly have any time, and when they fly they want to quickly get into the action and do it easily.

Lets just hope some of those guys find out about the higher fidelity stuff.

[Mysticpuma]

Dutch, I was referring to Injerin talking about a sense of achievement leaning an aircraft and the feeling of euphoria at getng a damaged aircraft back. I feel the same as I described :)

Bliss, agree too. There has to be a beginner point for new players to.try out and WT fills that void perfectly. I know (now with experience) that it's looked at as arcadey, easy, unrealistic, non-historic...but if people have fun it will draw them.in t the aviation hobby. It's only when they get board with the inauthentic mature of pretty much everything about it, that they may consider something 'deeper' and that's why the beginner's route shouldn't be attacked, but admired for the amount of new.blood it will eventually bring :)

Cheers, MP

[Old_Canuck]

Bliss and MP - totally agree with what you said about WT. They're having fun we're having fun; everybody happy happy happy. If I'm not mistaken a few WT players have already checked out ATAG server and more cross pollination could happen down the road. I've resigned myself to the fact that it wiil always be just a few crossing over though. Not many are willing to shell out the amount of money it takes to play at this level.

[Screamadelica]

Don't worry. Once the flight sim virus starts to take hold amongst it's victims they'll be opening wallets for a new set of rudder pedals and Hotas setup. It all starts off innocently with an arcade style flight game and slowly mutates into a full blown Cliffs Of Dover and DCS addiction. That's how I started 10 years ago, it just takes a little time for the magic to happen... :snoopy:

[Tvrdi]

Don't worry. Once the flight sim virus starts to take hold amongst it's victims they'll be opening wallets for a new set of rudder pedals and Hotas setup. It all starts off innocently with an arcade style flight game and slowly mutates into a full blown Cliffs Of Dover and DCS addiction. That's how I started 10 years ago, it just takes a little time for the magic to happen... :snoopy:

haha well put....basically BOS would be il2 46 with less planes and mp players, settled in stalingrad with better graphic and a bit better FM. But with very limited MP use due to restrictions of the engine. Forget about seow there. I surely, would fly BOS too, but much less than Cliffs (imagine the beast with future TF updates)....What 777 did is targeting casual simmers.