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AKA_Recon
Oct-02-2013, 19:19
me again... hope I'm not too annoying :)

Last night while flying with my squadron, we were discussing mission objectives and the online play. We are mostly flying Allied and most the guys really enjoy the fighters. We were in one of the 'non Operation Homeplate' missions and I was saying while flying the Blenheim that they should come down and help me destroy the targets in France. The response was so-so, as I know the guys really like taking down the bombers and preventing the fighters from attacking our homeland in England. The problem is, that isn't the mission objectives really. And further discussion we were talking about how, out of all the mission, the Operation Homeplate one is, in our opinion, the best setup on the ATAG server.

1. It promotes the Allies using their mostly fighter aircraft to defend England. By destroying the attacking planes, and having mission objectives around these attacks, it produces the scenario of BoB the best. We like the idea of winning by preventing the enemy from bombing strategic elements in England, and the best way to do this is to shoot them down. So this objective is really good. So it's a good start.

2. From the Axis perspective, they have Ju88, He111, Me110, Stuka, and the Italian bomber - all flyable. He111 is a treat, I love to fly it - you can level bomb in it quite well, the other assault planes are very good as well. The Germans do a great job typically of trying to accomplish the mission online. The really nice thing about Operation Homeplate is large bombable bases where % of the field shows the result. As with above, this is a really good start.

So, why the post ?

I'd like to see Operation Homeplate continue to get tweaked.

I'd like to see the 'non Operation Homeplate' mission get a make over. I'd run the Operation Homeplate as the centerpiece, and pull the other missions and start to redo them, adding in the same characteristics as Operation Homeplate. The other missions miss the BoB aspects. Maybe some small 'operation homeplate' style targets could be setup for the Blenheim, or maybe part of the mission would be to take out some ships - but that shouldn't be the main focal point.

From the Allies side, I'd like to see the number of kill objectives perhaps be limited to bombers as well - any non-fighter shot down going toward that number.

I'd like to see destruction of flyable airfields prevent their usage - or at least render that field unusable.

Any more ideas - I really like that setup - it promotes a real Bob flavor to it - and wish more of the missions had that same element.

In the end, I want the mission objectives to be something each side enjoys trying to achieve, and produces a realistic environment. I feel Operation Homeplate is the start toward that.

Thoughts?

ATAG_Bliss
Oct-02-2013, 22:30
I agree with everything you said. From my own standpoint, it's just I don't have much time right now. When it finally cools down outside, I'll be working hard on that front again. Plus it seems there's some others working on a few missions as well. Just know I want the same! :thumbsup:

AKA_Recon
Oct-02-2013, 23:01
thanks Bliss!

Roblex
Oct-03-2013, 01:51
From the Allies side, I'd like to see the number of kill objectives perhaps be limited to bombers as well - any non-fighter shot down going toward that number.

As long as 'bomber' includes fighter bombers otherwise the blues could just stop using the pure bombers and red could never win. I might also add that last night some of the blue pilots adopted a new tactic of dropping all their bombs just before landing on the RAF airfield so the AA gets the credit for destroying them; anything we can do to stop that?

EG14_Marcast
Oct-03-2013, 04:35
I am mostly a bomber pilot, and I fly mostly for blues. Still, In Operation Homeplate I almost always fly in a red fighter, as I find it greatly annoying on the blue side. I agree with you, Op.HP is the closest to the 1940 historical scenario, and it could be great fun in ATAG, but I've never seen it won by the blues. This depends on two reasons in my opinion, as somebody else already said.

1) The (strange) lack of heavy bombers pilots in the blue side. Blues have the best bombers in Clod, but everybody wants to fly a 109. In the red side, it barely happens that you fly a Blenheim alone to a target. Especially in Op. HP, where you need at least 4 bombers to destroy an airfiled, lonely raids are quite nonsense.

2) The lack of coordination in the blue side. This is even stranger for me. When you make a bombing mission on the red side, you almost always find plenty of people willing to jump on a Blenny to join the party and many fighters pilots offering escort. Sometimes there's even too much "traffic" in Teamspeak. Two nights ago I always flew for blues; in some moments we were more than 20, but I could talk only with 1 or 2 in TS. This is not a critic, anyone can play the "lone eagle", but I think that formation flight is much more fun. And in Op. HP blues can have a chance to win only if bombers formations are escorted by a number of fighters, with a good communication between the two groups. This type of battle could be a great fun for both sides

AKA_Recon
Oct-03-2013, 09:19
Good comments.

It might be a matter of making some slight adjustments and then seeing how it goes.

ie. if Red is winning all the time, it would tell me that maybe the number of bases to destroy is too high and needs to be adjusted.

I think these are 'tweakable' items. Also, I wouldn't mind having those targets even changed - ie. maybe it would be 'destroy Manston, destroy the radio towers at Littlestone' - perhaps smaller items.


As long as 'bomber' includes fighter bombers otherwise the blues could just stop using the pure bombers and red could never win. I might also add that last night some of the blue pilots adopted a new tactic of dropping all their bombs just before landing on the RAF airfield so the AA gets the credit for destroying them; anything we can do to stop that?

Personally, as someone who would fly the He111, I agree - and I'd remove the 109 B version from that particular mission setup. This isn't to penalize anyone, it would just place more emphasis on wanting non-fighter aircraft to hit the target.

As far as what you see with this exploit: if I saw that, I'd submit the track showing it, have a warning sent to them, and consider banning them. People who want to exploit missions in this manner ruin the fun for those that are interested in flying the missions as designed. Perhaps heavy handed, but the message would be quite clear. Wonder if there is a way to script that if an enemy lands at a friendly base they would be kicked and unable to rejoin.

With improved LOD's coming in the next patch, I think defending the bases could be easier to spot the low level guys coming in, I think it will result in some great battles over the coastlines. The Allies will have to do a good job of stacking at different altitudes to catch both low and high alt attackers and the Axis will need to provide escort if they want to win.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-03-2013, 09:42
I might also add that last night some of the blue pilots adopted a new tactic of dropping all their bombs just before landing on the RAF airfield so the AA gets the credit for destroying them; anything we can do to stop that?

AI should be removed from the mission and ALL lost blue aircraft (whether brought down by flak or not) should count to the score. I don't see any other way around this cheap-ass tactic.
If it's too hard to complete the mission with a score of only 40 needed, bring the target total up to 50 or so to compensate.

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Oct-03-2013, 09:42
I will add in ref to the 'non teamwork' aspect of the blue side..

Ive recently started to fly Red just due to comms really, You hardly ever get blue pilots willing to wing or just generally get on comms with you..Im not saying this constantly happens but it does happen a lot, when I do come across people on TS they are not speaking English which again aggravates me tbh as im pretty sure Most if not all Europeans speak English?. Notting have a dig its just me speaking my mind..

On that note yes if you like to fly lonewolf then blue is where its at in a 109...but for me atm I seem to be having more fun with the reds and actually hearing people who want to fly together.. Ive got no Tags now for that reason, flying on my own 99% of the time, squad doesn't seem interested in CoD or even being online tbh..

Anyway Im going off on one...

I also agree with the Op, that is a cool mission

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-03-2013, 09:56
I will add in ref to the 'non teamwork' aspect of the blue side..

Ive recently started to fly Red just due to comms really, You hardly ever get blue pilots willing to wing or just generally get on comms with you..Im not saying this constantly happens but it does happen a lot, when I do come across people on TS they are not speaking English which again aggravates me tbh as im pretty sure Most if not all Europeans speak English?. Notting have a dig its just me speaking my mind..


Hey Jamz, there are quite a few blue-flying English speakers on coms, just not always on ATAG coms. Quite a few english speaking blue pilots fly on ATAG, but meet on the ACG coms channel. You can see their TS monitor at this webpage, over on the right hand side; http://www.stormofwar.net/

Of course, you are always welcome to join us reds too. There seems to be more guys who fly red that are not fussed about being in a formalised squad, and just want to meet up in a big melee on coms.

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Oct-03-2013, 10:09
~S~ Phill

Rgt..Tbh mate I get the impression more people want to wing over on the reds than blues..I certainly see that in the timezone I play in anyway..Horses for courses I guess either way I always come across more than 1 Ea whatever side Im on :)

Red fighters are more challenging to fly though, that's a given so that adds to the fun factor a bit more

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-03-2013, 10:14
Red fighters are more challenging to fly though, that's a given so that adds to the fun factor a bit more

Don't say that out loud! :)

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Oct-03-2013, 10:23
Don't say that out loud! :)

LOL!

No one who takes this game seriously can argue that fact!

:-P

Roblex
Oct-03-2013, 13:19
I am mostly a bomber pilot, and I fly mostly for blues. Still, In Operation Homeplate I almost always fly in a red fighter, as I find it greatly annoying on the blue side. I agree with you, Op.HP is the closest to the 1940 historical scenario, and it could be great fun in ATAG, but I've never seen it won by the blues. This depends on two reasons in my opinion, as somebody else already said.

1) The (strange) lack of heavy bombers pilots in the blue side. Blues have the best bombers in Clod, but everybody wants to fly a 109. In the red side, it barely happens that you fly a Blenheim alone to a target. Especially in Op. HP, where you need at least 4 bombers to destroy an airfiled, lonely raids are quite nonsense.

2) The lack of coordination in the blue side. This is even stranger for me. When you make a bombing mission on the red side, you almost always find plenty of people willing to jump on a Blenny to join the party and many fighters pilots offering escort. Sometimes there's even too much "traffic" in Teamspeak. Two nights ago I always flew for blues; in some moments we were more than 20, but I could talk only with 1 or 2 in TS. This is not a critic, anyone can play the "lone eagle", but I think that formation flight is much more fun. And in Op. HP blues can have a chance to win only if bombers formations are escorted by a number of fighters, with a good communication between the two groups. This type of battle could be a great fun for both sides

Last night the Blues were creaming us. We could only watch in anguish as the percentage damaged on each field sped through the digits from 0 to 100% while we raced to catch them. Finally it was down to the last field, Littlestone, being 90% damaged and reds needing 3 more aircraft to snatch the victory and we though we had no chance as all blue had to do was send over three of four Ju88s or 110s diving in at maximum speed and we would have no way of stopping all three before one closed the field. Guess what happened next? The Blues decided to have a low-level dogfight in 109s off Manston, a field that had been closed for at least 15 minutes, and Red won the map.

On that basis I don't believe Blue can ask for the map to be made easier :-P

I don't know what the long term stats show but, almost very time I have flown in Baseplate the end has been incredibly close and I would be surprised if Marcastel never seeing a Blue win was true or if the stats did not show fairly equal wins for both sides.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-03-2013, 13:55
Last night the Blues were creaming us. We could only watch in anguish as the percentage damaged on each field sped through the digits from 0 to 100% while we raced to catch them. Finally it was down to the last field, Littlestone, being 90% damaged and reds needing 3 more aircraft to snatch the victory and we though we had no chance as all blue had to do was send over three of four Ju88s or 110s diving in at maximum speed and we would have no way of stopping all three before one closed the field. Guess what happened next? The Blues decided to have a low-level dogfight in 109s off Manston, a field that had been closed for at least 15 minutes, and Red won the map.


I was there for this*. Staggered at the tactical stupidity of it really, throwing the map away like that!

* although, it was a damned good scrap!

AKA_Recon
Oct-03-2013, 17:59
Fun - and what you describe is exactly the immersion this type setup brings.

When I fly (~9pm EST till 11:30ish EST) we don't get the numbers like other timezones.

Last time we had OHomeplate mission when I've flown was like 2 weeks ago - it's rare to see it.

When I did fly, we had about 5 guys and I was only He111 - I made a few runs and had 58% of a base destroyed.

Last time I joined ATAG comms, a younger fellow liked to swear every other word and thought singing on comms was acceptable - I left German comms and flew alone - I didn't want to hear all that nonsense.

But regardless, these missions are fun - maybe some sort of dynamic setting of objectives based on number of people flying - that would be interesting :)

Kling
Oct-03-2013, 18:19
AI should be removed from the mission and ALL lost blue aircraft (whether brought down by flak or not) should count to the score. I don't see any other way around this cheap-ass tactic.
If it's too hard to complete the mission with a score of only 40 needed, bring the target total up to 50 or so to compensate.

Yes I would like to see an increase to 50 planes and I have been suggesting this a few times. Maybe increase to 60 even or 5 fields to make the map run longer... It is after all a great fun map! :)

Bear Pilot
Oct-03-2013, 19:59
Yes I would like to see an increase to 50 planes and I have been suggesting this a few times. Maybe increase to 60 even or 5 fields to make the map run longer... It is after all a great fun map! :)

+1

Salmo
Oct-03-2013, 22:32
Thankyou for the comments about HP guys. I value your feedback. See http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4507&p=63196#post63196 for update on HP ver2.0 to be released soon (after TF 4.0 patch).

AKA_Recon
Oct-03-2013, 23:31
Thank you Salmo for all your efforts and hard work - it's appreciated!!!

Roblex
Oct-04-2013, 02:47
I was there for this*. Staggered at the tactical stupidity of it really, throwing the map away like that!

* although, it was a damned good scrap!

I have just thought; maybe Blue were just trying to lure us away North so the bombers could hit Littlestone with less opposition. If that is the case it was a valid tactic as we Reds do get sidetracked by low 109s a bit too easily. They just got their timings wrong and failed to hit the field before the sacrificial 109s got taken down. 56 had several fighters over Littlestone at the end and they never saw any bombers before the map closed.

We will just have to see whether Salmo has gone too far in upping the Red quota to 60. Personally I think it too much as when Blue makes a serious effort to close an airfield it goes down very quickly no matter how much opposition is put over the field. It is possible for two He111s to close a field so if two reach the target and die straight after then that is 25% of the blue objectives versus 3% of the red objectives.