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View Full Version : Spitfire IIa ruins all the fun



Winger
Sep-14-2011, 05:19
Hello Folks! I am regularily playing on your server and i want to thank you for hosting it. Now straight to my critics:
Adding the Spitfire IIa to the planeset is a major mistake since it simply totally outperforms the 109 (no matter wich type) in all FM aspects and kills all the fun in playing blue. Over at the 1C forum there is a huge thread regarding your server and i am not the only player that would love to see that corrected on the maps in your cycle. Even some red pilots agree that the IIa is simply no good combination currently. Maybe when the FM of the hurri, Ia and 109s are correct (we all know they underperform) but as of now the Spit IIa is only good for singleplayer.

Another point: Could you please disable padlock funktion? It negates the need to spot enemys by yourself and also takes the ability to surprise an enemy. Not good feature for a full real server.

Last point: Colouds. I have a really good rig but the clouds simply ruin the performance. Id strongly suggest disabling them until their performance may be repaired in a future patch.
Hey they are useless anyways since the dont make you invisible. Your dot remains visible...:)

And again thanks for hosting the server!

Winger

ATAG_Torian
Sep-22-2011, 08:05
Well I'll throw in my 2c worth.....
I would argue that while yes the IIa is definitely an improvement on the Ia it still
comes down to pilot skill as the 109 still has some major benefits over the Spit IIa.
Any1 who flies the spit knows how easy it is to bleed speed. In my (albeit limited)
experience a 109 will (if flown well) bleed speed less quickly and in all honesty u donot want to get into a turn fight with any Brit plane...that's not the 109s strength and u must fly to a planes strengths and within it's proper flight envelope. It is a
high energy fighter and is best flown at high energy.
2ndly, the most obvious benefit of the 109 is it's fuel injected engine. You aren't
punished with a complete engine cut-out going negative Gs like u are in any Brit
fighter. This makes climbing stall turns a breeze in a 109 but precarious in a Spit.
I don't think there would be too many pilots who haven't earned the ire of their
fuel starved engine in their Brit fighter in the heat of battle.
3rdly, don't forget u are flying a pc sim...dare I say it...a game ! In the real Battle
of Britain most air battles were fought in the context of (sometimes) massed
formations of fighter escorted bombers. Every1 had a squad and a wingman and
the Brits needed to shoot down bombers that were laying waste their airfields and cities more than go looking for heroic 1 on 1 dogfights. And dont forget that there were 3 Hurricanes in service for every Spit in the BoB. In this pc game however
u get all standards of (pc) pilots from absolute rookie to seasoned pro. Most
players just jump in, pick a plane and go off on a lone sortie. There are not too
many who take the time to get on coms and buddy up with at least 1 wingman
and give each other some support. I realise there are language barriers but I hope u get my point.
Wanting the Spit IIa taken out because it's "overmodelled" is not necessarily
a valid argument in my opinion. This is a pc game and it has inherent limitations
and a fair degree on unrealism as a result. Perhaps if u want a little more realism u
could limit the ratio of Spits and Hurris on a map to a realistic 1:3.
I do feel it is a mistake to pull the Spit IIa totally as I still believe the 109 to be
just as competitive against a Spit IIa if flown well.
I feel that perhaps a good deal of
the criticism is coming from pilots taking on a Spit IIa the wrong way...and many
a time the best way is not to to take them on. Meet them on your terms not
theirs and if u are a rookie expect to get ur ass handed to u frequently. That's not
a bad thing as u will learn from it...I know I do and it's mostly by 109s flown well.
One hit from those mine-geschoss rounds and I don't care how good a Spit IIa
pilot u are ur in the silk.
Anyway, I look forward to comments.
Torian

ChiefRedCloud
Sep-27-2011, 10:10
I am not well read enough to respond to this or the other thread (on the Spit 2) with a proper comment (so why say anything). But it would seem that Bliss and the others here are looking at ways to have a comprimise that atleast in part offers ALL a vinue that will be amiable to most if not all.

I'm feel that expression, as many have done in these threads (as long as they are civil) are welcome. So I believe if we work with the folks here at ATAG and other places, then we will ALL benifit from this.

I personally have benifited by way of ALL the wonderful discussion on a subject (Spit 2 vs 109) that I had no knowledge of. For this I thank you ALL.:coolio:

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Sep-27-2011, 12:52
Well I'll throw in my 2c worth.....
I would argue that while yes the IIa is definitely an improvement on the Ia it still
comes down to pilot skill as the 109 still has some major benefits over the Spit IIa.
Any1 who flies the spit knows how easy it is to bleed speed. In my (albeit limited)
experience a 109 will (if flown well) bleed speed less quickly and in all honesty u donot want to get into a turn fight with any Brit plane...that's not the 109s strength and u must fly to a planes strengths and within it's proper flight envelope. It is a
high energy fighter and is best flown at high energy.
2ndly, the most obvious benefit of the 109 is it's fuel injected engine. You aren't
punished with a complete engine cut-out going negative Gs like u are in any Brit
fighter. This makes climbing stall turns a breeze in a 109 but precarious in a Spit.
I don't think there would be too many pilots who haven't earned the ire of their
fuel starved engine in their Brit fighter in the heat of battle.
3rdly, don't forget u are flying a pc sim...dare I say it...a game ! In the real Battle
of Britain most air battles were fought in the context of (sometimes) massed
formations of fighter escorted bombers. Every1 had a squad and a wingman and
the Brits needed to shoot down bombers that were laying waste their airfields and cities more than go looking for heroic 1 on 1 dogfights. And dont forget that there were 3 Hurricanes in service for every Spit in the BoB. In this pc game however
u get all standards of (pc) pilots from absolute rookie to seasoned pro. Most
players just jump in, pick a plane and go off on a lone sortie. There are not too
many who take the time to get on coms and buddy up with at least 1 wingman
and give each other some support. I realise there are language barriers but I hope u get my point.
Wanting the Spit IIa taken out because it's "overmodelled" is not necessarily
a valid argument in my opinion. This is a pc game and it has inherent limitations
and a fair degree on unrealism as a result. Perhaps if u want a little more realism u
could limit the ratio of Spits and Hurris on a map to a realistic 1:3.
I do feel it is a mistake to pull the Spit IIa totally as I still believe the 109 to be
just as competitive against a Spit IIa if flown well.
I feel that perhaps a good deal of
the criticism is coming from pilots taking on a Spit IIa the wrong way...and many
a time the best way is not to to take them on. Meet them on your terms not
theirs and if u are a rookie expect to get ur ass handed to u frequently. That's not
a bad thing as u will learn from it...I know I do and it's mostly by 109s flown well.
One hit from those mine-geschoss rounds and I don't care how good a Spit IIa
pilot u are ur in the silk.
Anyway, I look forward to comments.
Torian

Couple of things mate..

You say the 109 is competitive against the Spit2 if flown well?... and If the Spit2 is flown well?? what happens then?

You also say about maybe its best to not take them on, how do you distinguish between a 1/1a or 2?

And Also the hits from the cannon are good night Vienna?, yes they are and from what I read and see that was about the reality of it too, the Spit2's massive advantage in game because the 109 hasn't its correct FM 'Is not' reality

To meet the Spit2 on your terms is literally Booming at Maximum dive speed and trying to get 1 shot only, you miss and you will be chased down, chased up or chased level..again fictional

The only situation the Spit2 doesn't do quite as well as the 109 is high alt @ 6-7k..

I don't like the numbers imbalance though you have in Europe Primetime so maybe having it in low numbers may even things out i don't know.

335th_GRAthos
Dec-03-2011, 04:33
Hallo Torian,

As a primarily Bf109 pilot, I just wanted to share some of my experience yesterday.
Below you will find what I posted at 1C.
I am not against any of your comments and actually I do not have anything against a limited number of Spit.II
Besides the blue have found a way to control the Spit.II, just as in real life the allies learned to control the ME-262s. By vulching their airport :thumbsup:
So blue team-tactics and airfield supressing in combination with the long engine warmup time of the Spit and its limited vailability make the game interesting and balanced for me :dthumb:
As far as I am concerned, whether I fly blue or red, it is fine!

Now that the main thing was said, I just add a side comment regarding the Spit.II performance, see below:


I had to fly Red yesterday afternoon in order to even up the server (we were 11 red vs 18 blue).
The good thing: I did not have to search for the enemy, they were all above my airfield
PS. that smart a$$ in the ME110 who lands at our red airfield in order to quickly re-fly deserves to be sent to the prison-camp for a couple of years before he is allowed to re-fly again. At least have the honesty to try to make it back to your base or die honorably while trying... It was reality that you were vulching our air bases, it was also reality that you crawled your way back to France over the Channel if in trouble
@Bliss: I maybe wrong but I have the impression that if they land at the enemy airbase it is not considered a kill and we do not get credited with the kill !!!!!! (unlike IL2FB).

The even better thing: I had a Spit II. Boy, oh boy what a machine this is! I think I will prepare a bright red-baron skin for the Spit II and look forward to the moment skins will be allowed again!
I was over France, over a blue depot, plane badly hit (from the AAA), "playing" with three Bf109 who were trying got get on me. At the end the flak got the most hits...
On another try, again over France, out of ammo (but away from the depot flak), got jumped by three Bf109; just went corkscrew up while supressing them down, they gave up after 5min, then left for home... (I apologised later).

The less good thing: At one take off and subsequent dogfight, I got Elevator and Ailerons damaged. I managed to fly the Spit II and land safely at the airfield by controlling the alt with the engine revs. You know what the most difficult thing was? To get the plane lose altitude!!!!!

So yes, the SpitII is a bit ueber... :Grin:

Blue Blighter
Dec-03-2011, 06:12
I think I will prepare a bright red-baron skin for the Spit II and look forward to the moment skins will be allowed again! :thumbsup: :iloveu:

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-03-2011, 07:38
Actually everything said above re Spit IIa vs 109 is correct - no argument! There had been a number of things occurring on the ATAG server that were upsetting the balance of play which ultimately would ruin the whole experience for everyone. Adopting ATAG_Torian's suggestion of including Spitfire IIa's has actually worked very well in many respects in restoring the balance. As you know, the IIa is only available in limited numbers at one location only -- and is very vulnerable. We've monitored the gameplay very closely and the Blues have quickly adapted their tactics accordingly.

The feared sweep of Axis aircraft has not occurred. The wise 109 pilot plans his attack on a Spitfire carefully......it's likely a Ia......but what if it's a IIa? So yes, 109's are falling to IIa's, but also IIa's are falling to 109's in the game. Many Red pilots opt for their preferred mount anyway -- the Hurricane Rotol. Also, a number of Red pilots are using their IIa's to climb fast after incoming bombers -- where the IIa's can be engaged successfully by escorting 109's. At least, the 109's that are the true Eagles; not the vultures scrabbling on the ground looking for easy road kill!

That 110 that landed on the Red airport was not looking for a quick respawn. That is a tactic employed by some of the Blues to sacrifice one of their own to draw all the AAA down to that one aircraft and allow the others to pick off the easy targets on the ground. Not historical, not sporting, very gamey, but presumably they have their own table in the Officers' Mess set far away from the one reserved for the true Luftwaffe Eagles -- the ones who prefer to fly higher than anyone else as the 109's and real fighter pilots were designed to do!

ATAG_Torian
Dec-03-2011, 08:02
I really don't want to keep this argument alive as there has been a volumes on
this already in other posts.
I will say this, go and fly the freakin IIa against a good 109 pilot. You guys seem
to think it has some magical properties that make it invincible.
And whats the "fun" that it it is ruining ?? Oh u can't kill a MkI at will anymore.
Maybe red pilots would like to have some "fun" for a change against the usual
2 to 1 odds they have to fight against. Think about how u take on a Spit now.
It might be a IIa and u might actually have to be careful about ur altitude and
approach instead of the cavalier attitude many have cultivated because of the
"fun" they've been having.
5 Spit IIa's. Sheesh u'd think it was the end of the bloody world. Move on.
Torian

9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-04-2011, 10:54
Guys guys.. you just get more enjoyment when you smack the $hit out of them with mineshells..

Stay high, stay fast, fly smart...

play on servers to literally fly sea level to vulch an airfield then you deserve to die..whatever AC your fighting..

really dont see the enjoyment there tbh

Ohms
Dec-04-2011, 11:25
Jamz you are absolutely correct.:thumbsup:

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-04-2011, 12:09
Guys guys.. you just get more enjoyment when you smack the $hit out of them with mineshells..

Stay high, stay fast, fly smart...

play on servers to literally fly sea level to vulch an airfield then you deserve to die..whatever AC your fighting..

really dont see the enjoyment there tbh

Spoken like an Eagle. S!

Whiskey
Dec-04-2011, 13:09
I do agree the IIa is a needed equalizer, its not the end of the world but the beginning of a level playing field. As stated, the care free flying is no more and that has some people upset because the relaxed kill when I want scenario is no longer viable. They have to work harder for it now!!!

Now, we have the constant vulching (suppression) of Manston. Although a great tactic used in WWII by allied pilots to control ME262, the 262's were not kept at the same airfields but moved to keep the allies guessing were they were and making recon flights a integral part of the allies suppression.

The tactic of landing at enemy bases to draw flak away from incoming support is just bullsh!t, cheap and basically a douche bag tactic!! Firing off their fire ext. when being attacked is another bullsh!t tactic and exploit used by only a few (and we all know who they are). The salvation being that soon the fire ext. won't matter at all (hopefully with new graphics work).

Dealing with these miscreants is not an easy task. Banning, a no refly for 2 hours or what ever, but it needs to be addressed and dealt with in some manner. Move the allied tanks closer and to Manston with a good spread to provide fire support for the base. More AA at the bases, a gunboat offshore from Ramsgate/Manston. Remove some other objects so you are able to insert base fire support.

Whiskey

ATAG_Bliss
Dec-04-2011, 18:27
We're still working on some ways to help protect the fields. Just give a little time and we'll have something figured out. :thumbsup:

SNAFU
Dec-05-2011, 03:25
I asked FG28_Kodiak to extend the "death/ESC penalty" script so far, that the pilot list created by the script can be extended with a paramater which stores the airfield from which each player took off. My intention was to remove supply points of the team (only in my former III./JG27 system) if a player did not land on the airfield from which he took off. However, this script could be readily modified to give a player penalty time, if he didnґt land on the airfield from which he took off. Should also be possbile to check coordinates of the player on landing and if Y-coordinates bigger than XY - > give player penalty-time.

We started experimenting and trying on this script part (Kodiak providing the methods, me trying to put them all together) few month ago, but due to that I stopped my project, I stopped proceeding with that. I am sure there is an easy solution for the kind of exploit. At least if you have a death penalty time long enough, these kids will think twice.

Whiskey
Dec-05-2011, 09:13
Thanks Bliss, I know you guys are working hard to improve ATAG server. It is the best server in the world of CLoD. Great job gents :dthumb:.

Whiskey

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-05-2011, 09:20
Thanks Bliss, I know you guys are working hard to improve ATAG server. It is the best server in the world of CLoD. Great job gents :dthumb:.

Whiskey

+1

Doggles
Dec-05-2011, 11:55
I really don't want to keep this argument alive as there has been a volumes on
this already in other posts.
I will say this, go and fly the freakin IIa against a good 109 pilot. You guys seem
to think it has some magical properties that make it invincible.
And whats the "fun" that it it is ruining ?? Oh u can't kill a MkI at will anymore.
Maybe red pilots would like to have some "fun" for a change against the usual
2 to 1 odds they have to fight against. Think about how u take on a Spit now.
It might be a IIa and u might actually have to be careful about ur altitude and
approach instead of the cavalier attitude many have cultivated because of the
"fun" they've been having.
5 Spit IIa's. Sheesh u'd think it was the end of the bloody world. Move on.
Torian

I flew the Spit 2a last night against several skilled 109 pilots. It was so easy it was shameful.

There's literally no skill involved at all, you just point the plane at the enemy and wait for him to get into your convergence range.

Probably the 5th time I've flown a spitfire in this game ever. 2 109's working together against just me by myself? No problem, Spit 2a is an "I win" button. The only reason I didn't get both kills is because I ran out of ammo after shooting the first 109 and 2 stukas down. If I flew the spit long enough to get good at gunnery this would be a joke.

Doggles
Dec-05-2011, 12:25
As stated, the care free flying is no more and that has some people upset because the relaxed kill when I want scenario is no longer viable. They have to work harder for it now!!!I'll tell you what's care-free flying: The Spit 2a. Working over a 109 is effortless. Bliss says he has no trouble with the Spit 2 at 5500m+ but I had a Spit 2 outclimb me at 7000 metres last night.

Sounds to me like you don't fly Axis very often. It was never carefree. The Hurri remains a threat when flown well. I routinely see guys like Sniper and JTDawg putting up impressive scores flying the Rotol. So either these guys are the Harlem Globetrotters of IL2 or the 109 isn't quite as overpowered as you think. The only logical conclusion is that the majority of Allied pilots on this server don't know how to fly their rides properly.

If some guys can do it and others can't, but both have the same aircraft available to them, what does that say about the Hurri? It says the aircraft is fine. It's the operator that's the problem.

Doggles
Dec-05-2011, 12:26
We're still working on some ways to help protect the fields. Just give a little time and we'll have something figured out. :thumbsup:

Will Axis airfields be getting extra protection too?

Whiskey
Dec-05-2011, 13:04
Another concession to unskilled Allied pilots? Will Axis airfields be getting extra protection too?

Unskilled? Don't talk of unskilled Doggles. Look at the numbers mate...currently 23-13 for the blue side, of which 8 or more are constantly over Manston/Ramsgate bases vulching. Even if a IIa gets off the ground without being killed 4 times he is out numbers by 2 to 1 most times.

Anyone who throws that BS out about unskilled pilots is full of SH!T. What are you basing your kills on in an E-4 before the IIa was introduced? Skill? PFFFT. That plane even under modeled is still modeled more accurately than the Ia and had little to do with skill to kill a Ia if the pilot kept his speed. When I killed an E-4 in a Ia I actually knew I done well to kill it...I flew the E-4 and found that even if I flew badly against a Ia I still could either escape, kill it or disengage at will and survive.

Suck it up mate. Take the challenge as the red pilots did in the Ia vs the E-4, it will be a non-issue soon hopefully.


Whiskey

Ohms
Dec-05-2011, 13:48
Doggles your out in left field with your asumptions!I do ok in a Hurri when i catch a 109 not flown by a guy who knows what he's doing,if you get a boom and zoomer you rarely have a chance unless he makes a stupid mistake(unlikely) or he gets hit by flak.There are enough of the former who try to turn with you and loose but the good guys don't usually do this.The only time you can catch a 109 with a good pilot is if you catch him while attacking Welli's but again not often or just taking off(not my perfered method not a fan of vulching but dont have a problem with it either,all part of the game)I suggest you fly a Hurri the next time you see MK MRX or any other quality 109 driver and see how you do.

ATAG_Snapper
Dec-05-2011, 14:13
Well, I think this has been hashed out thoroughly with strong points made by both "sides". Nothing more to be gained here, and much to be lost. Hopefully this will all become moot with the much-anticipated patch due soon.

Snapper