Extremely difficult to shoot down the HE-111 with allied aircraft

[SIDWULF]

It is extremely difficult to shoot down the He-111 with allied aircraft.

I have set up a quick mission with unlimited ammo and vulnerability turned on against 9 Heinkel He 111 while flying a Spitfire Mark II with Default weapon Loadout. I sit behind the Heinkel He 111 and send out a steady stream of bullets and also alternating burst fire into various areas such as the wings roots, engine and the tail while adjusting my angle of attack slightly each time. I attempt the same attacks on the other bombers. Nothing happens for about 3 minutes of continuous shooting, no parts fall off, no control services appear to fail and cause the aircraft to loose control. Maybe some smoke from the engine and sometimes if i am lucky an engine fire. But otherwise the allied planes seem useless against the He-111. Then I decide to hop in a ME 109 E4 with cannons. I set up behind the He 111 and after a few rounds of cannon shells the whole damn tail falls off! I continue shooting at the other bombers with hysterical laughter while watching rudders, ailerons, and elevators being completely shot off left and right.

Question: Was it really this hard for the allied pilots? How did they manage to shoot down ANY He-111's?

[Mattias]

It is extremely difficult to shoot down German bombers with allied aircraft.

I have set up a quick mission with unlimited ammo and vulnerability turned on against 9 Heinkel He 111 while flying a Spitfire Mark II with Default weapon Loadout. I sit behind the Heinkel He 111 and send out a steady stream of bullets into various areas such as the wings roots, engine and the tail while adjusting my angle of attack slightly each time. Nothing happens for about 3 minutes of continuous shooting, no parts fall off, no control services appear to fail and cause the aircraft to loose control. Maybe some smoke from the engine and sometimes if i am lucky an engine fire. But otherwise the allied planes seem useless against German bombers. Then I decide to hop in a ME 109 E4 with cannons. I set up behind a Heinkel He 111 and after a few rounds of cannon shells the whole damn tail falls off! I continue shooting at the other bombers with hysterical laughter while watching rudders, ailerons, and elevators being completely shot off left and right.

Question: Was it really this hard for the allied pilots? How did they manage to shoot down ANY german bombers?

:salute:

I have done a lot of ammo/weapons testing before this mod and I did not have that much problems downing a few, at least not at convergence range. I would however advice from attacking bombers from 6 o'clock at their speed as their gunners will gave a field day :recon: Try attacking from their 12 and see how easy it is to kill the pilot when only the glass is there to protect him :thumbsup:

Regarding the cannons: Cannons are very effective against large and slow targets. This is one of the ironic things about the BoB -the German weapons were far superior against bombers :D

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

It is extremely difficult to shoot down German bombers with allied aircraft.

I have set up a quick mission with unlimited ammo and vulnerability turned on against 9 Heinkel He 111 while flying a Spitfire Mark II with Default weapon Loadout. I sit behind the Heinkel He 111 and send out a steady stream of bullets and also alternating burst fire into various areas such as the wings roots, engine and the tail while adjusting my angle of attack slightly each time. I attempt the same attacks on the other bombers. Nothing happens for about 3 minutes of continuous shooting, no parts fall off, no control services appear to fail and cause the aircraft to loose control. Maybe some smoke from the engine and sometimes if i am lucky an engine fire. But otherwise the allied planes seem useless against German bombers. Then I decide to hop in a ME 109 E4 with cannons. I set up behind a Heinkel He 111 and after a few rounds of cannon shells the whole damn tail falls off! I continue shooting at the other bombers with hysterical laughter while watching rudders, ailerons, and elevators being completely shot off left and right.

Question: Was it really this hard for the allied pilots? How did they manage to shoot down ANY german bombers?

Yes it was difficult to shoot down bombers with .303's, if you just shot at the aircraft without picking your targets.

British pilot accounts comment all the time about how they have more success when attacking from the front, thereby being able to shoot into the cockpit and kill the pilot.

Otherwise very concentrated fire on engines or fuel tanks was required.

The vanilla game allowed a single player to shoot down 6-7 bombers with a single ammo load, which is completely ahistorical.

There are only two accounts of a British BoB pilot shooting down 5 aircraft in a day, and in both of those situations, the kills happened over multiple sorties, and the kill totals included the much easier fighters.

Re. the 109's cannon being more effective... IT WAS... :shoot:

That's why all the airforces in the war switched to 20mm as their main weapon... except the USAAF with their .50's, but the US pilots had mostly fighters as targets, or Japanese bombers with no self sealing fuel tanks, and the .50 caliber was MUCH more effective than a .303, doing roughly 4 times the damage. Also with a bank of 6 or 8 .50 calibers, you have a pretty nasty set of weapons.

.303's were almost obsolete at the time of the BoB, another year and the German bombers would have been tougher still, as many had more armour and other protection added.

[Davis0079]

and to add to that...cannons were so effective that 20mm and up is whats used today...

[SIDWULF]

With a single ammo load you will have a very difficult time shooting down most German bombers including the Heinkel He 111 no matter your convergence or aiming skills. You might get lucky and flame an engine or fuel tank. but thats is quite the rare occurrence. I have tested this conclusively.

I guess i'm just frustrated. Sure attacking head on is fun...but you only get to do that once :P

OH GOD I HATE THE SMILEYS ON THIS FORUM.

they are so...obnoxious...and huge.

[ATAG_Headshot]

With a custom ammo load out and proper convergence shooting an allied fighter can still bring down a bomber quite well this patch. I had a few passes on some bombers last night where a second or two of fire was enough.

[SIDWULF]

With a custom ammo load out and proper convergence shooting an allied fighter can still bring down a bomber quite well this patch. I had a few passes on some bombers last night where a second or two of fire was enough.

Uh okay...what is your magical "custom ammo load out" and "proper convergence" then.

lol...

[Mattias]

With a single ammo load you will have a very difficult time shooting down most German bombers including the Heinkel He 111 no matter your convergence or aiming skills. You might get lucky and flame an engine or fuel tank. but thats is quite the rare occurrence.

:salute:

With all due respect, the phrase bolded above is far from true :D
If you hit a critical part with the right kind of ammo and the right amount of it, you will bring it down :thumbsup:

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Uh okay...what is your magical "custom ammo load out" and "proper convergence" then.

lol...

I use a 50/50 mix of .303 Armour piercing and DeWilde Incendiary... I don't like tracers, they give me away when I am behind a fighter.

That mix does just fine for me, I have shot down bombers with a single 1-2 second burst. (when positioned correctly)

If you don't like the head on passes, then try from behind, above and to the left in a slight dive, aim at the cockpit, you'll have a good chance of killing or wounding the pilot.

Don't forget to lead the aircraft by the appropriate amount and make sure you are rudder trimmed. (sideslip needle centered)

[Davis0079]

The Search for a Bigger Gun

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/cannon-or-machine-gun-the-second-world-war-aircraft-gun-controversy.html


...enjoy...

[Catseye]

It is extremely difficult to shoot down German bombers with allied aircraft.

I have set up a quick mission with unlimited ammo and vulnerability turned on against 9 Heinkel He 111 while flying a Spitfire Mark II with Default weapon Loadout. I sit behind the Heinkel He 111 and send out a steady stream of bullets and also alternating burst fire into various areas such as the wings roots, engine and the tail while adjusting my angle of attack slightly each time. I attempt the same attacks on the other bombers. Nothing happens for about 3 minutes of continuous shooting, no parts fall off, no control services appear to fail and cause the aircraft to loose control. Maybe some smoke from the engine and sometimes if i am lucky an engine fire. But otherwise the allied planes seem useless against German bombers. Then I decide to hop in a ME 109 E4 with cannons. I set up behind a Heinkel He 111 and after a few rounds of cannon shells the whole damn tail falls off! I continue shooting at the other bombers with hysterical laughter while watching rudders, ailerons, and elevators being completely shot off left and right.

Question: Was it really this hard for the allied pilots? How did they manage to shoot down ANY german bombers?

Change the loadout and try again.
A mix of ball, AP and incendiary should do the trick.

[Roblex]

I have been reading a lot of RAF autobiographies recently and it is quite common to read of them attacking bombers without doing serious damage. One of my recent reads was 'Carrier Pilot' where he describes three hurricanes being sent to shoot down a He115 that was spying on the fleet and instead the He115 shot down one of the hurricanes and escaped after the other two ran out of ammo :-) I think it was the same book where one of the pilots failed to shoot down a JU88 and complained that it was nearly impossible to stop one with .303s.

As far as the CLOD version goes, it might be worth noting that in Sundays SoW mission the first squadron to engage the bomber formation was comprised of 6 hurricanes and managed to destroy 8-10 bombers in two passes, and this was with 109s escorting them. Bombers in V4 have been strengthened so that 6 attacks are pretty much a waste of time because the engines are harder to damage and bullets wont penetrate to the front of the fuselgae but they are still vulnerable to frontal and flank attacks. The heavy damage done in the SoW campaign (in which 22 bombers were shot down in total) was probably helped ironically by the 109 escort making dead 6 attacks too dangerous and forcing the hurricanes to make fast slashing attacks from different angles.

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Me and Atag_Headshot yesterday on the server:

Lolsav - "Im going for the left bomber"

Headshot - "Roger, ill take the right"

-- brrrrt brrrt--- (guns firing)

Lolsav - "I set mine with engine on fire, he is going down"

Headshot - "Yes i nailed mine pretty good too, he seems to go down too"

Lolsav - "Preparing for a second pass on group"

Headshot - "Roger, going on the right again"

--- brrrt brrrrt -

And we got 2 bombers each. On second pass Headshot was hurt and went low, i kept with him for a bit and after went engaging a 109 in the area.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

It is extremely difficult to shoot down German bombers with allied aircraft.
?

I just knocked down four in a single flight on SOW server with a hurricane, and landed with ammo to spare.

[mazex]

I know there seems to be a general consensus among most hard core players here that the problems of shooting down bombers from 6 o clock with Spits and Hurricanes in CloD is realistic... But still, like many here I have read a bunch of books from the battle by novice pilots that suddenly got a fat Heinkel in front of them and put a few badly aimed bursts towards it and it went smoking to the ground. That is extremely rare in this game (and I'm not making a point that the TF patches have made it worse - I think it feels about as hard as before).

I have shot down a bunch of Heinkels from 6 o clock, but many times I have been perfectly lined up at 100 yards with correct convergence and emptied my whole ammo load right into one of the engines with no effect but a number of flashing "hit markers" and maybe some thin smoke coming from it. And we are talking eight .303 guns at perfect convergence pouring 160 rounds per second into a wing of aluminum and some spars and then an engine... Once when doing my military service we had to much ammo after a practice so we took eight M240 machine guns (7.62mm) and fired at an old house with a belt each... And then a belt each on a car wreck. The "targets" where at 2-300 yards and we fired 8x500 rounds. Guess what the car looked like after that? We opened the hood and looked at the engine and it looked like a Swiss cheese... The seats, instrument panels etc where ripped to pieces. Even the seat belts where perforated.

Somehow the eight Brownings pouring 16 seconds of lead each into the same wing and the bomber just keeps on running feels very hard to believe for me at least? And how many times did the combat records we read happen with a Spitfire 100 yards behind the bomber at matching speed with prefect convergence and emptying the full ammo load? I have tried that quick mission with He-111:s heading for London so many times just to check this out. Approaching the bombers slow and steady, fire at the exactly correct range - flashes all over the Heinkel, debris flying off, but 50% of the times I don't get them. We are talking about 30 kilos of bullets hitting the same wing with marginal effect :)

The effectiveness of the .303:s in the original IL2 feels believable to me at least. You don't manage to down a twin engined bomber every time there either - but a perfectly aimed 3 second burst dead into an engine will wreck it almost every time. Just like I think it would IRL?

Anyone that have read combat records/books that describe someone in a Spitfire or Hurricane emptying all their ammo prefectly aimed at a bomber from 100 yards that just continues with no major damage?

[1lokos]

It is extremely difficult to shoot down German bombers with allied aircraft.


Yes, but if you learn fire only on convergence "window", is not too difficult.

5292

In QM, Hurricane with default (limited) ammo.

5293

And I missing 68% of shots. :D

With Spitfire in same conditions expect shot down 2 or 3 due the lower amount of ammunition.

Sokol1

[SIDWULF]

Sigh... I figured people would come in here and just say "Hey look at me! I just shot down 100x Heinkels! hurr durr! it's not hard!"

*Walks away annoyed and fires up CLOD in absolute frustration*

Maybe something magical will happen this time.

Grrr!

[ATAG_Headshot]

I have a bunch of footage attacking bombers very successfully right now. I will try make a vid of it in the next day or so to show thy it can be done

[Mattress]

I've been playing through the default RAF campaign again and I can usually take down a few bombers in each mission (the 109s seem to take themselves down, though - flying into the sea quite often...). I've been shot up pretty bad by bombers before, so I've adopted a strategy: I fly in a little high behind the bomber, come screaming in at a speed greater than his (I'm terrible at flying formation, so sitting up the back of a bomber is the same). I then fire right into one of his engines and, once I'm at "oh crap I really should pull up" distance, I start to pull my sight up and across so that it passes over the top of the bomber and lingers near the cockpit for a little bit. Usually in one or two passes, this seems to be enough to get the crew to hit the silk or to kill the pilot. Often the engine will burst into flames, instead.

As for it being difficult to get lucky shots on engines - the first time I played this patch I was still adjusting my gear (haven't played CoD in a while) and was on one of the first RAF missions. I saw a bomber, realised I'd forgotten to turn my sight on, then got far too close before I got the sight on (I use mouse clicks...) and finally let open a very brief burst in the general direction of the bomber. I pulled away, looked back and saw his engine on fire! I feel like a lot of my sorties in CoD come down to luck - either good or bad :D

This is all with whatever ammo the campaign gives me by default.

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

The default loadout is poor and probably why you are having problems. The last time I checked 2 of the guns were loaded with oberver rounds and nothing else. Others have tracers. The oberver round does nothing other than create puffs of smoke. As other have said, create your own ammo belt with the type advised and you will have a much better time (but do not use observer rounds.

It's easier to shoot bombers in game with custom loadouts than it was during the BoB.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Dorniers don't count as bombers, an arthritic Grandmother in a Tiger Moth would give them a terrible scare... Now do the same with a bunch of Heinkels... even after I reduced their tank like properties.


Yes, but if you learn fire only on convergence "window", is not too difficult.

http://i44.tinypic.com/15phph4.jpg

In QM, Hurricane with default (limited) ammo.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ixt6w4.jpg

And I missing 68% of shots. :D

With Spitfire in same conditions expect shot down 2 or 3 due the lower amount of ammunition.

Sokol1

[Dutch]

An arthritic Grandmother in a Tiger Moth would give them a terrible scare...

Who taketh my name in vain, eh? Who? :D

[1lokos]

Using unlimited ammo for training dont help because you are not careful on how/when spend your ammo.

5294

On left side the He.111 are under convergence window - notice that I set the gunsight properly - a ~1 second burst set you right engine on fire. He's going down.

On center or right side I am fire too close, outside of convergence window, spray bullets over all plane, in this case I need luck to hit the pilot...

If you came from il-2'46 wheres bombers sometimes explode in hundred of pieces, or Wop/WT wheres planes start "Hollywood" fires, take in mind that CloD have a
more realistic damage model, you dont need shoot then on pieces or set on fire:

5295

This bomber loosing oil, fuel and coolant certainly not come back to base. Of course it don't provide the pleasure of "kill". :devilish:


An arthritic Grandmother...Now do the same with a bunch of Heinkels.

The best count with Spit is three. Need try with Hurricane. :thumbsup:

Takes into account the Cyborg Graphite I'm using has more "parkinson" that the arthritic Grandmother. :joystick:

5296

And no rudder control... :D

Sokol1

[Catseye]

The default loadout is poor and probably why you are having problems. The last time I checked 2 of the guns were loaded with oberver rounds and nothing else. Others have tracers. The oberver round does nothing other than create puffs of smoke. As other have said, create your own ammo belt with the type advised and you will have a much better time (but do not use observer rounds.

It's easier to shoot bombers in game with custom loadouts than it was during the BoB.

It really isn't fair to the OP and to TF to make such a global statement regarding default loadouts.

Please take another look before making such a broad statement without checking first.

TF made every effort to enable historical loadouts as default in TF 4.0 release.

[ATAG_Headshot]

Well here's the video showing a few of my runs on the bombers over the last few days in a spitfire.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKT6K9GXums&feature=youtu.be

My ammo load out is...
gun 1: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 2: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball
gun 3: de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball, AP, AP

and so on continuing that pattern. That way I make sure at least 2 guns are firing every main ammo type at once. I also don't use tracers. My convergence is set to 250:250.

I really love the new incendiary effects in the TF 4.0 patch too.

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Great shooting Headshot! I have to learn the wingspan thingy. Never got to that part. How do you change it on the fly? Of course there is keys for it, i mean on the joystick.

Hey Mooooommmm! Im in the movies 2!

[ATAG_Headshot]

I have joystick keys assigned to wingspan +/- and convergence +/-. Now I just need that "Beware the Hun in the Sun" thing up on my wall so I know the actual wingspans ;)

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Have to warn everyone:

For TF 5.0 I intend to fix the AI gunners so they fire more accurately and don't fall into a faint when their pilot pulls 1/2 a G.

When that happens, it'll be a lot less easy to make those dead six attacks.

[Roblex]

I have always found that the most effective way to attack is to shoot from 4 o/c or 8 o/c and Headshots first two attacks are a great example. I think it is because you end up hitting the engine and the cockpit in quick succession. In his video he also manages to do fatal damage from dead 6 but note that he had to use 2-3 times as much ammo.

As far as convergence goes, I have mine set to 200yds (183m) and I rarely set the convergence on the gunsight any more because at 200yds a bomber pretty much touches either side. Moving the bars from the 74ft setting for the 111 to 66ft for the 88 makes so little difference it seems pointless when you are only going to be at that exact difference for a fraction of a second. Similarly a 109 fills about 1/2 the reticule and in a dogfight you are even less likely to be sitting stationary at that exact range.

[PFT_Endy]

All you need to do really is make passes at the bombers firing 1-2 second bursts maximum at one of the engines and then leave it. Rinse repeat for all the bombers in the formation and just wait. After a couple of minutes they'll all start falling down and you can easily get like 9 bomber kills in one sortie.

Same goes for Stukas, a short burst at the engine/radiator area and they'll drop in a few minutes.

Works like a charm, on AI of course :)

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Historically, does any body know what the greatest number of bombers destroyed in a single mission by an RAF pilot was during the BoB?

I'd guess it's probably three?

[keeno]

Great video, again enjoyed over breakfast with a cuppa.

i find myself sitting watching saying "now" in my mind when i consider the enemy to be at the correct deflection to get hit.

On the debate of allied .303 weaponary and ammo. I read a book which said that the axis bomber crews were terrified by the allied load of x's 8 .303 machine guns and the "scatter gun" effect a well aimed burst could produce. It said that german aircraft would come back virtually undamaged but the entire crew was killed (apart from the pilot obviously), alternatively a well aimed pass with a split second burst could down a bomber by instantly showering the cockpit and decimating its occupants.

Now for me, i'd love to have the cannon armed Spitfire, I'd also love to be a much better marksman and I was also thinking that since the release of TF4.0 its suddenly way to difficult to shoot down anything, then last night (offline) in one sortie I got 2 Ju87's and 2 Me109's but generally in a typical sortie I get 1, maybe 2 planes which I find is much more realistic than pre 4.0 were you could get half a dozen enemy planes downed.

I think, its down to the pilot and their skills as shown in the last video posted.

Cheers.

[FAE_Cazador]

From what I read about this point in WWII books, the theory before the war was "the bomber will always pass". And so the official RAF Fighter Command's tactics to face them was to dedicate a unit of three planes flying "VEE" for every enemy bomber, discharging their full load of ammo in perfect order and get back home to R/R.

After the first months of war, reality showed both ideas were wrong or useless and new tactis were developped, usually by front-line pilots, not by Headquarters, on a trial+error basis. New tactics and formations like 12 o'clock attacks (111st Squadron pioneering this), quick attacks from atop aiming to the cabin, 2-plane formations instead of the "Vee", new finger-four, "Big Wings" etc. etc.

What I mean is that probably our grand-parents had this discussion long ago, nothing new under the sun.

In may case I try to make a quick pass from atop aiming to the rear gunners, spreading their area with 0.303 to kill them. Then I dive and climb again and, if I see no return fire, then sit down on their high six or level 5 or 7 to spread the cabin to kill the pilot. German bombers had a known issue with their crowded cockpits surrounded by glass, and 8x0.303 well aimed and with good convergence can make a slaughter there.

Sorry, I don't want to seem cruel or nasty but the weakest part of a plane is always the pilot. So go for him! :)

PS: I used to fly bombers too in good old IL-2, normaly Ju-88 in Eastern Front, so I know pretty well what I mean.

[LcSummers]

Hi iam more a newbee in ammo loadouts, especially RAF.


Is so so kind to explain me what this means?

1, quote "A mix of ball, AP and incendiary should do the trick."

what is ball? i do not have CLOD in English, so thats why i do not understand it correctly.

de wilde is ok

Ap i think there is only one available MKI

and ball? wich MK VII?


2, Wich is the best loadout, i have seen so much.


3, The german bombers do not smoke if i hit them , wich rounds do i need for getting them in big black smoke/ burning?




Thanks. any help appreciated.

[Mattias]

It really isn't fair to the OP and to TF to make such a global statement regarding default loadouts.

Please take another look before making such a broad statement without checking first.

TF made every effort to enable historical loadouts as default in TF 4.0 release.

:salute:

You are absolutely right Cats, but it should be noted that some missions are made using custom beltings and thus overrides our default ones.
So, if anyone gets a belting full of observer rounds, don't blame us :D

[spud3030]

Have to warn everyone:

For TF 5.0 I intend to fix the AI gunners so they fire more accurately and don't fall into a faint when their pilot pulls 1/2 a G.

When that happens, it'll be a lot less easy to make those dead six attacks.


Thankyou in advance Buzzsaw!!!
will be good to carry around a decent otto:thumbsup:
he can earn his keep then

spud

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Hi iam more a newbee in ammo loadouts, especially RAF.


Is so so kind to explain me what this means?

1, quote "A mix of ball, AP and incendiary should do the trick."

what is ball? i do not have CLOD in English, so thats why i do not understand it correctly.

de wilde is ok

Ap i think there is only one available MKI

and ball? wich MK VII?


2, Wich is the best loadout, i have seen so much.


3, The german bombers do not smoke if i hit them , wich rounds do i need for getting them in big black smoke/ burning?




Thanks. any help appreciated.

Hi, Answers to your question

Mate that is '303 ball'-'Armour piercing'-'DeWilde'


Ball is the standard 303 round used in game



So your loudout would be:

303
AP
Dewilde

(add tracer if you wish)


Any Round will make it smoke IF you hit it correctly and in the right area, i.e the Engine

[LcSummers]

Hi Jamz,

thank you again, you helped me with the loadout in single player yesterday.:salute:

There is only on question left for me:


Is it better to have more rounds of a type in a row to achieve better results? I think yes or?


S!

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Hi Jamz,

thank you again, you helped me with the loadout in single player yesterday.:salute:

There is only on question left for me:


Is it better to have more rounds of a type in a row to achieve better results? I think yes or?


S!

Yw :)

Well not really as what you see in the box is the order that the guns will fire so:

AP
AP
DeWilde
DeWilde
Ball
Ball

Will fire 2 shots of each round starting with 'AP' SO You may as well do AP-Dewilde-Ball as Im sure it doesn't really matter

However

If you use Tracers you will want to do something like:

Tracer (red)
AP
AP
DeWilde
DeWilde
Ball
Ball

So a Tracer if fired first then again every 7 rounds because it is how you have it in your list (which is what I recommend for 2 guns only) 1&8 OR 4&5

hth

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

I wasn't being disrespectful to TF or the OP. I did state 'the last time I checked' but having checked again the default loadout appears to be:-

4 guns with Ball .303 (only)
2 guns with AP (only)
2 guns with Tracer (only)

If that is the default loadout then the default loadout is less effective (poor?) compared to custom made alternatives. That is not disrepectful but an observation as to why the OP may be experiencing problems.

The campaign MIS files (and any MIS file where the Player 'weapons' entry is flagged as 1) uses the default loadout and can only be changed by editting the MIS file or opening the file in FMB. If I am wrong then I am more than happy to be corrected regards setting alternative loadouts in SP.

What would be useful to the OP (and anyone new to CloD) is decribing the process to change loadouts in the Campaign and SP Missions so they can judge for themselve as to what works best for them based on the good advice regards convergence, loadouts, etc in this thread.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

:salute:

With all due respect, the phrase bolded above is far from true :D
If you hit a critical part with the right kind of ammo and the right amount of it, you will bring it down :thumbsup:

Agree. Of course it is hard, with realistic settings it is very much like reality which was very hard. Very few pilots "in the day" got multiple bomber kills or even one on a given sorte. If you think the He111 is tough, have a go at a Wellington with an E1. You can empty your guns and it will fly away if you don't shoot through the fusilage and get a PK. I agree with Mattias that if you can get a frontal pass, that is the fastest way to drop one. You only have seconds due to the closure rate but if you line it up right, you'll PK. :thumbsup:

[Gromit]

I load one type of round per gun not mix them, I use -

1-AP 2-Ball 3-DW 4-WT 5-WT 6-DW 7-Ball 8-AP

works fine for me but one major handicap you have as a red player is you MUST fire at or near convergence, I set mine at 200yds, if your more than 50yds over or under convergence all your going to do is rattle them, if you get in real close aim with one wing, I use tracer for this reason as I can walk my shots exactly where I want them!

[Continu0]

Have to warn everyone:

For TF 5.0 I intend to fix the AI gunners so they fire more accurately and don't fall into a faint when their pilot pulls 1/2 a G.

When that happens, it'll be a lot less easy to make those dead six attacks.

Good to hear!!!

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Good to hear!!!

Yes and No..There needs to be a balance and a reason why some of us fly high

This will also discourage High Alt flying which there isn't enough of as it is imo

[1lokos]

For TF 5.0 I intend to fix the AI gunners so they fire more accurately and don't fall into a faint when their pilot pulls 1/2 a G.


:)

I am under impression that the adjust in AI on TF 4.0 affect the gunners aim in SP missions.
Now they reminder more the il-2'46 ones that the typical "Mr.Magoo" of CloD. :beaten:
This and the now sound for bullet impact has caused good scares. :confused!:

Sokol1

[ATAG_Headshot]

I load one type of round per gun not mix them, I use -

1-AP 2-Ball 3-DW 4-WT 5-WT 6-DW 7-Ball 8-AP

works fine for me but one major handicap you have as a red player is you MUST fire at or near convergence, I set mine at 200yds, if your more than 50yds over or under convergence all your going to do is rattle them, if you get in real close aim with one wing, I use tracer for this reason as I can walk my shots exactly where I want them!

I find with the new incendiary effects I can walk my shots where I want even without tracers. You just have to get the first hit.

[SIDWULF]

Well here's the video showing a few of my runs on the bombers over the last few days in a spitfire.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKT6K9GXums&feature=youtu.be

My ammo load out is...
gun 1: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 2: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball
gun 3: de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball, AP, AP

and so on continuing that pattern. That way I make sure at least 2 guns are firing every main ammo type at once. I also don't use tracers. My convergence is set to 250:250.

I really love the new incendiary effects in the TF 4.0 patch too.

With all due respect those are Ju 88's and Do-17's! Not He-111's!

But anyways. I must go back and rephrase my topic to say only He-111's instead of all German bombers. Your video is very convincing and enough proof that you can shoot down the OTHER german bomber in a single pass.

Thank-you. I only tested strafing runs on the He-111. I'm going to go back and test against all the German bomber types. (Sorry I was lazy) =)

I almost feel embarrassed to have made a big stink about this in the first place. Thank you all for the helpful input into what is happening. Can a moderator change the title of my topic to "Extremely difficult to shoot down the HE-111 with allied aircraft" to not distract the developers or newcomers to much.

[Mattias]

With all due respect those are Ju 88's and Do-17's! Not He-111's!

But anyways. I must go back and rephrase my topic to say only He-111's instead of all German bombers. Your video is very convincing and enough proof that you can shoot down the OTHER german bomber in a single pass.

Thank-you. I only tested strafing runs on the He-111.

I almost feel embarrassed to have made a big stink about this in the first place. Thank you all for the helpful input into what is happening.

:salute:

As said before -try attack the He-111 from the front or sides. The crew is only protected by a glasshouse from those angles :D

[ATAG_Colander]

Can a moderator change the title of my topic to "Extremely difficult to shoot down the HE-111 with allied aircraft" to not distract the developers or newcomers to much.

done.

[ATAG_Snapper]

FWIW I find the He111's the toughest to shoot down (and the Do17's the easiest). I can't add much to the others' comments and advice. My load is equal amounts DeWilde incendiary, AP, and British Ball VII. I've tried every convergence combination known to mankind, including this forum :D, and I've come back to what works best for me: 225 m / 225 m for all eight guns (I set my gunsight to 250 yards). I set my wingspan to 32 ft (= 109 wingspan) and don't bother setting the bomber wingspans.

I've tried head on shooting the 111's with some success, but not a lot. The 111's gunners are Daniel Boone snipers. My last head on approach last night saw my water jacket perforated at a closing speed of 500+ mph. The devils have nailed me on quartering passes from almost 90 degrees abeam at 300 mph IAS!

My modus operandi on bombers that gives me most success starts from high, behind, and off to one side (usually the far left). I make a curving dive and as I approach I change my POV from 90 to close up 30. I go for the bomber on the extreme edge to lessen the combined fire effectiveness. As my pipper drifts closer to my aiming point (left hand engine), I time my curving approach to bring me to convergence as the pipper covers the left engine. I allow my sideways drift to continue to the right while still firing and drawing closer to allow my fire to migrate to the central fuselage/canopy, then to the starboard engine. This is usually about 2 seconds of fire, max. I then abruptly haul up vertically and curving sharply left again to evade the defensive fire. This not only sets me up for the next pass, but I'm also scanning around for any 109's who usually show up.

If I have a bomber streaming from both engines, I go on to the next. Eventually the stricken bomber will drop, and administering the coup de grace only exposes you and your machine to defensive fire needlessly, IMHO.

How do I know that I'm at perfect convergence? I don't, strictly speaking, but at 30 POV the bomber looks HUGE when it fills the reticle. I'm closing quickly, so the precise-to-the-yard distance is moot anyway.

Hope this is helpful. If we ever meet up online I'd be glad to fly your wing and go "bomber hunting" with you!

Snapper:salute:

[SIDWULF]

FWIW I find the He111's the toughest to shoot down (and the Do17's the easiest). I can't add much to the others' comments and advice. My load is equal amounts DeWilde incendiary, AP, and British Ball VII. I've tried every convergence combination known to mankind, including this forum :D, and I've come back to what works best for me: 225 m / 225 m for all eight guns (I set my gunsight to 250 yards). I set my wingspan to 32 ft (= 109 wingspan) and don't bother setting the bomber wingspans.

I've tried head on shooting the 111's with some success, but not a lot. The 111's gunners are Daniel Boone snipers. My last head on approach last night saw my water jacket perforated at a closing speed of 500+ mph. The devils have nailed me on quartering passes from almost 90 degrees abeam at 300 mph IAS!

My modus operandi on bombers that gives me most success starts from high, behind, and off to one side (usually the far left). I make a curving dive and as I approach I change my POV from 90 to close up 30. I go for the bomber on the extreme edge to lessen the combined fire effectiveness. As my pipper drifts closer to my aiming point (left hand engine), I time my curving approach to bring me to convergence as the pipper covers the left engine. I allow my sideways drift to continue to the right while still firing and drawing closer to allow my fire to migrate to the central fuselage/canopy, then to the starboard engine. This is usually about 2 seconds of fire, max. I then abruptly haul up vertically and curving sharply left again to evade the defensive fire. This not only sets me up for the next pass, but I'm also scanning around for any 109's who usually show up.

If I have a bomber streaming from both engines, I go on to the next. Eventually the stricken bomber will drop, and administering the coup de grace only exposes you and your machine to defensive fire needlessly, IMHO.

How do I know that I'm at perfect convergence? I don't, strictly speaking, but at 30 POV the bomber looks HUGE when it fills the reticle. I'm closing quickly, so the precise-to-the-yard distance is moot anyway.

Hope this is helpful. If we ever meet up online I'd be glad to fly your wing and go "bomber hunting" with you!

Snapper:salute:

Really enjoyed reading your post! Like how you worded it.

Cheers.

[Roblex]

I took on a He111 last night and despite being a rotten shot it only took a one second burst from 4 0/c to set the engine burning and see him enter a death dive. The next in target was just ahead and I was lazy and attacked straight away from 6 0/c and a two second burst from left to right before I passed set both engines smoking but not burning. He kept flying but I left him thinking he would go down but I was not given that kill.

Am I the only one finding that the incidence of lost kills has increased since the patch? I am talking about fatally damaging a bomber over England and leaving it to crash later but never getting the kill. It was always something that happened occasionally but over the last week it seems to be the case that if you don't see it crash, you don't get the kill. Klem was complaining last night that he left a JU88 gliding with both engines dead and never got the kill. It is realistic of course, in WW2 you did not get credited a kill just because you made a bomber smoke and it might not have got home :D

Is it because the new tougher models make it them more likely to get home alive? Is the higher AI skill making them cope better with damage? Or am I just imagining the increase in lost kills? :D

Something else I am probably imagining is an increase in the number of times you *do* get a kill after damaging someone but it is so long after the attack that it does not seem practical they lasted that long e.g. puncturing a 109s radiator and getting the kill 15 minutes later!

[56RAF_phoenix]

Have to warn everyone:

For TF 5.0 I intend to fix the AI gunners so they fire more accurately and don't fall into a faint when their pilot pulls 1/2 a G.

When that happens, it'll be a lot less easy to make those dead six attacks.
Even half a gee would make it hard for a gunner to aim accurately, unless he was in a powered turret with a reflector sight.
That was the reason for the Frazer-Nash turret in the Defiant, which was an excellent piece of kit, despite the overall concept being so bad.

56RAF_phoenix

[Kwiatek]

After some shoting to bombers i found that their engines are much harder to damage. I mostly shoting to engines and before 4.0 with good burst i could heavy damage engine but not it is not so easy. I dunno if bombers had any armour in their engines? Engine and crew should be always the weakest point of the bomber.

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

Am I the only one finding that the incidence of lost kills has increased since the patch? I am talking about fatally damaging a bomber over England and leaving it to crash later but never getting the kill. It was always something that happened occasionally but over the last week it seems to be the case that if you don't see it crash, you don't get the kill. Klem was complaining last night that he left a JU88 gliding with both engines dead and never got the kill.

Something else I am probably imagining is an increase in the number of times you *do* get a kill after damaging someone but it is so long after the attack that it does not seem practical they lasted that long e.g. puncturing a 109s radiator and getting the kill 15 minutes later!


I have experienced the same. The 'lost kills' seemed to happen whenever I joined the server and the Map, Briefing screen,etc, took very long to appear. I now exit and re-join, the mission briefing loads quickly and, though I get my Kills, the long delay is still evident on some maps (not all). Maybe it's jut a coincedence?

As for making it difficult to down bombers, I would prefer to see Bomber DM changed rather than improving AI gunners which are able to compute exactly where a fast attacking ac will be at any point in time and space, despite not even being in that AI gunners fileld of view. This is happening at the moment. Can you fill a Heinkell with players in every gun position? Interesting to see how they would fair ....:D

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Even half a gee would make it hard for a gunner to aim accurately, unless he was in a powered turret with a reflector sight.
That was the reason for the Frazer-Nash turret in the Defiant, which was an excellent piece of kit, despite the overall concept being so bad.

56RAF_phoenix

A solution would be to make moving the gun harder the more Gs are being pulled. But to not allow the trigger to be fired does not make any sense to me. This is exactly what It hing is wrong with the current way it is modelled and I am glad it ist being looked at.

Edit: on EvangelusE post, the problem for me hasn't been the defensive fire I take when attacking the bombers, as I hardly fly reds, but when I am the gunner myself. There is nothing more frustrating in the game than having a plane 100 meters off your six, you are descending slightly and still can't shoot because your trigger will not fire because of the "G effects". For the AI I think it is a perfectly reasonable solution allow shooting only under a specific vertical speed. But maybe not so few m/s?

Back to topic: gotta try the He-111 specifically, but I usually shoot the cockpits, killing the pilot.

[jocko417]

I'm really enjoying the new hit effects and smoke and so forth, nice work!

Has there been any thought by TF to tie the gunsight convergence setting to the loadout screen convergence?

I would think in RL the sight convergence would only need to be set once, after the guns had been physically harmonized the sight would be set to match and then left alone (only the base range setting would need to be adjusted in flight, which depends on target wingspan).

In future patches could the sight be automatically adjusted for range on hitting FLY, based on how the guns have been set up in the loadout screen? One less thing to futz with after launching a quick dogfight and frantically trying to get the sight set up during the merge, when it would already be set up in RL, at least for convergence.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

and ball? wich MK VII?



The Mk VII was the standard "ball" round for the .303, introduced in British service in 1910. The cordite version of the Mk I round was of 1891 vintage!!!!

I'm not sure why they included the MKI in game. Although it had a much heavier round nosed 215gn projectile v's 174gn (for the Mk VII) it was running about 470fps slower (~1970fps, the Mk VII has a MV of 2440fps ) and had significantly different ballistics to the more modern rounds. The Mk VI listed in game was also a round nosed 215gn projectile with a marginally faster muzzle velocity (2050fps)

I've never actually used the Mk I or Mk VI so would be interested to hear of peoples experiences with these rounds.

It would also be interesting to see if the ballistics of the round are accurately modeled in-game.

Cheers!

[Roblex]

I'm really enjoying the new hit effects and smoke and so forth, nice work!

Has there been any thought by TF to tie the gunsight convergence setting to the loadout screen convergence?

I would think in RL the sight convergence would only need to be set once, after the guns had been physically harmonized the sight would be set to match and then left alone (only the base range setting would need to be adjusted in flight, which depends on target wingspan).

In future patches could the sight be automatically adjusted for range on hitting FLY, based on how the guns have been set up in the loadout screen? One less thing to futz with after launching a quick dogfight and frantically trying to get the sight set up during the merge, when it would already be set up in RL, at least for convergence.

I asked the very same question months ago. Like you, I feel that the convergence would have been set up once and then not touched again rather than some sadistic rigger resetting it to 400yds every night so you have to put it back before you take-off. The answer was basically 'Don't be so lazy. It is trivial to set the convergence before taking off.' :D

[fischbs]

Reading a book "Fly for Your Life" right now about Robert Tuck in the BoB and they are badly desiring 20mm just like you.

The HE111 had a reputation for being a durable plane.

[keeno]

Hi,

i have a question, looking at the videos by headshot i see plenty of flashes where the rounds inpact on the planes. I use a mixture of 50% "dewilde" and 50% "AP" and i see no flashes at all only puffs of white dust. is there a problem with the loadouts getting mixed up, I'm definately loaded with Dewilde and AP not observer rounds.

Headshot, what ammo are you using in these videos please, i want ammo impact flashes!

Thanks in advance.

[Kling]

Hi,

i have a question, looking at the videos by headshot i see plenty of flashes where the rounds inpact on the planes. I use a mixture of 50% "dewilde" and 50% "AP" and i see no flashes at all only puffs of white dust. is there a problem with the loadouts getting mixed up, I'm definately loaded with Dewilde and AP not observer rounds.

Headshot, what ammo are you using in these videos please, i want ammo impact flashes!

Thanks in advance.

In the single missions and quick missions that shipped with the game you cannot the loadout.
You can only do this in the Full mission builder or online and then only for the mission that YOU created yourself ;)

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I asked the very same question months ago. Like you, I feel that the convergence would have been set up once and then not touched again rather than some sadistic rigger resetting it to 400yds every night so you have to put it back before you take-off. The answer was basically 'Don't be so lazy. It is trivial to set the convergence before taking off.' :D

I think you would find that the guns needed to be removed periodically for servicing. I don't now if each aircraft was allocated a specfic set of guns or if they were selected from a 'pool' of guns in the armory. In anycase I expect the guns would have to be sighted in and convergence tuned after the re-fit

Cheers!


Edit - Oops! your talking about the game not remembering settings - my bad - I normally fly online, once I set up my guns I haven't had them reset. Servicing of guns hasn't been an issue for me because I tend to go through a lot of planes very quickly. In fact the MOD has actually set up a new factory just to supply me with replacement planes!

[ATAG_Headshot]

Hi,

i have a question, looking at the videos by headshot i see plenty of flashes where the rounds inpact on the planes. I use a mixture of 50% "dewilde" and 50% "AP" and i see no flashes at all only puffs of white dust. is there a problem with the loadouts getting mixed up, I'm definately loaded with Dewilde and AP not observer rounds.

Headshot, what ammo are you using in these videos please, i want ammo impact flashes!

Thanks in advance.

gun 1: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 2: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball
gun 3: de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball, AP, AP
gun 5-8 continue the pattern.

This makes sure that at any time I have at least 2 guns firing one of the 3 main ammo types. The de Wilde rounds make the flashing effect. YouTube also loses a little quality but in game the flashes are much more vivid too. If you get a good burst in on someone it is really quite dazzling!

[1lokos]

Mmm, De Wilde... :devilish:

5291

One He."tank"111 start fire in both fuel tanks.

Sokol1

[keeno]

Hi headshot, (and others)

thanks for the reply. I'm currently using 50% AP and 50% DW but i see no flashes in QMB or FMB playing missions that others have made. If you read Kings reply, is he saying that the impact flashes only happen online and playing FMB that i've made?

Cheers again.

[235 Sqn. Coldstreamer (QJ-X)]

a 303 de wilde round didn't give a big flash more of a sparkle. most gun camera footage come from .50 de wildes. as for he 111 damage. shot down and recovered bombers where found to have a minimum of 200 bullet holes in then. some having over 350 holes. thats nearly a quarter of your load out for eight guns

[1lokos]

I'm currently using 50% AP and 50% DW but i see no flashes in QMB or FMB playing missions that others have made. If you read Kings reply, is he saying that the impact flashes only happen online and playing FMB that i've made?


Keeno,

Probable you ammo settings are not saved, re-check. And look if the file "user.ini" in Documentos\1c Soft Clube... dover\ are not set "Read only" (right click > properties).

In my above picture you see DW flash on He.111, and are in offline on Single Mission (a edited QM).

Sokol1

[keeno]

Thanks to all for replies.

1Lokos, I've re-checked my "user ini" and it shows my load as as 50/50 DW and AP, (in number form). On the load-out screen, if i flick through the gun loads it shows each gun as I have saved them, alternate guns having either DW or AP. Very strange, I'll do some experimenting, just out of interest, do you get the "hit" flashes and if so, what ammo lay out are you using?

I think i'm going to have to have an afternoon of experimenting.

Cheers again.

[1lokos]

I use this one suggested in this topic.

BALL
BALL
AP
AP
DW
DW

etc.

At least on FMB this should work - form QM need edit the mission and include this loadout.

Sokol1

[1lokos]

Historically, does any body know what the greatest number of bombers destroyed in a single mission by an RAF pilot was during the BoB?

I'd guess it's probably three?

I find three:


Archie McKellar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_McKellar) - Hurricane
On 15 August 1940 No. 605 intercepted a German raid against Tyneside mounted by He 111s based in Norway with Luftflotte 5 (Air Fleet 5). McKellar was credited with three He 111s destroyed during the encounter. For this action he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) and was gazetted on 13 September 1940 and made reference to the "outstanding leadership and courage" displayed by Mckellar.[24

An other three with one 12s burst (the guy fire like CloD AI). :devilish:



9 September.[27] McKellar attacked with the sun at his back with his Squadron, save for one Section which was left to provide top cover against Bf 109s. The attack was made head-on to break up the German bomber formation which consisted of a large mass of He 111s.[28] He destroyed three He 111s with a single, 12–second burst. The first He 111 exploded. It damaged a second which rolled over and dived down into the ground. McKellar then moved his fire to a third. Its port wing snapped off.[27] He then destroyed a Bf 109 in the afternoon giving him a fourth success.[1]


On 7 October his score rose by five victories, all Bf 109s—becoming an Ace in a day. McKellar explained three of the five victories in the combat that day in his combat report;

...." I opened fire and saw my De Wilde (explosive ammuntion) hitting his machine."
Sokol1

[1lokos]

Has there been any thought by TF to tie the gunsight convergence setting to the loadout screen convergence?
I would think in RL the sight convergence would only need to be set once, after the guns had been physically harmonized the sight would be set to match and then left alone (only the base range setting would need to be adjusted in flight, which depends on target wingspan).


Jocko,

While the TF does not adjust convergence default value (400) for ? ... a "idea" to deal with this:

Set some key to adjust convergence + and another to convergence -.

Now with a joystick software or keymapper, create a macro to hit this key for adjust convergence + 15 times, and set to one button/HAT.
Create another macro to hit adjust convergence - 15 times, and set to other button/HAT.

In game set the same buttons/HAT for: increase gunsight illumination and other to decrease - instead use "toggle"(this increase/decrease work for British fighters as ON/OFF).

When you hit this button/HAT the gunsight illumination are turned ON and convergence set to 250 yards (15 key press) - adjust to preference.
Hitting button/HAT to decrease gunsight illumination, these are turned OFF and convergence reset to default value (400 yards).*

http://i41.tinypic.com/21152k3.gif

Drawback: If hit the button/HAT for increase or decrease two or more time repeated the convergence adjust are broken. :D
* This is need to maintain the sequence.

In the same way are possible set buttons for specific wing span, e.g. for He 111 are required 15 key press.

Since I have few stick buttons (4), I use Hidmacros and set a key to press key macros, but this software do strange things in CLoD, like hold Ctrl key...

Sokol1

[jocko417]

Sokol, yes, I've been thinking a macro is the way to go, I'll put it on a switch on my WH throttle that I won't ever bump by mistake ;)

Reason I haven't done it yet is I keep getting an exception error when I try to run TARGET, but that's for another forum...

Cheers!

[Catseye]

Sokol, yes, I've been thinking a macro is the way to go, I'll put it on a switch on my WH throttle that I won't ever bump by mistake ;)

Reason I haven't done it yet is I keep getting an exception error when I try to run TARGET, but that's for another forum...

Cheers!

For you guys with the Warthog HOTAS here is the script file for the gunsight wing width and distance.

I use HAT3 for this

MapKey(&Joystick, H3D, REXEC(1, 100, "ActKey(KEYON+PULSE+L_CTL+'8');")); //closer
MapKey(&Joystick, H3R, REXEC(1, 100, "ActKey(KEYON+PULSE+L_CTL+'6');")); //wider
MapKey(&Joystick, H3U, REXEC(1, 100, "ActKey(KEYON+PULSE+L_CTL+'2');")); //farther
MapKey(&Joystick, H3L, REXEC(1, 100, "ActKey(KEYON+PULSE+L_CTL+'4');")); // narrower

Cheers

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

Keeno, a quick way to confirm your loadout and try new loadouts in all missions you have is to open the mission file itself using Notepad or Wordpad. The Mission files are stored in the following folder path 1csoftclub - Il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover MOD - Missions - Single. When you open the Mission folder you will see a whole bunch of files with appropriate mission names, the ones you want are described as MIS files.

When opened, scroll down, identify the Player entry and the weapon loadout for the players ac. As an exampleI have highlighted the key parts of the mis file in red.

If there is no gun data entry under Weapons 1 then you are using the default loadout.

You can of course change/edit the gun data under the weapons 1 entry if you want to try something else (and the players ac if you want). In the example below the outer guns are coded 11 9 2 10 where 11 is DW, 10 White TRacer, 9 AP and 2 Ball - that is the order in which they will fire in that gun untill the mag is empty.

You can Copy and paste the gun data under the weapons 1 entry below (high lighted) as a starting point and of coure you can do the same for the campaign MIS files but these are stored in the Steam - Common - BoB Parts folder.

Do a 'save as' if you want to preserve the original mission and re-name it of course. It will appear a a new mission in your single missions menu.




[PARTS]
core.100
bob.100
[MAIN]
MAP Land$English_Channel_1940
BattleArea 25000 10000 300000 300000 50000
TIME 9
WeatherIndex 2
CloudsHeight 700
BreezeActivity 10
ThermalActivity 10
player BoB_RAF_F_302_PL_Early.000
[GlobalWind_0]
Power 3.000 0.000 0.000
BottomBound 0.00
TopBound 1500.00
GustPower 5
GustAngle 45
[splines]
[AirGroups]
BoB_RAF_F_302_PL_Early.01
BoB_LW_JG26_II.21
[BoB_RAF_F_302_PL_Early.01]
Flight0 1 2
Class Aircraft.SpitfireMkIa
Formation VIC3
CallSign 26
Fuel 70
Weapons 1
Belt _Gun06 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2
Belt _Gun00 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2 10
Belt _Gun01 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2
Belt _Gun07 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2 10
Belt _Gun02 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2
Belt _Gun05 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2
Belt _Gun04 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2

[Roblex]

It is worth noting that you can't just copy one of your belt presets from user.ini as the keywords are slightly different. You must change
'beltPreset MyLoadout _Gun00 Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2' to 'belt _Gun00 Browning303MkII MainBelt 11 9 2'

[keeno]

Thanks again for the advice guys,

as soon as i'm back to my days off work I'm gonna try out the advice by Evangelus as I didn't know you could do this, very interesting. I don't want to make a big deal of this but i always thought the achive footage of fighter attacks on bombers which showed the flashes of bullet impacts looked so cool and it was captured perfectly in some TF 4.0 footage early in the thread and I want to replicate it.

we will see.

Ta!!

[reflected]

I find it realistic. You have to be at convergeance range and hit something vital. Then a 3-4 sec burst can do its magic. Otherwise you're just throwing peas at them. It wasn't uncommon that Heinkels returned from their missions with 3 Spitfires' full ammo load in them. That being said, they are not invincible:

5422

:salute:

[Roblex]

I find it realistic. You have to be at convergeance range and hit something vital. Then a 3-4 sec burst can do its magic.
:salute:

Note sure 3-4 seconds counts as a 'burst'. That is more 'spray & pray' :D

At convergence a ONE second burst should start a fire if you hit it right but other times success can elude you. On Saturday I was testing a new loadout using a single player mission and set three consecutive bombers on fire within the space of 20 seconds using 1-2 second bursts. I thought I had finally cracked it but then I re-ran the test three more times and only got one more flamer despite using all my ammo (though in each test at least two bombers sustained fatal engine damage that killed them eventually).

[Sabrefly]

gun 1: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 2: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball
gun 3: de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball, AP, AP
gun 5-8 continue the pattern.

Sorry, I can't figure out what would be gun 4 loaded with?

gun 4: ball ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde? :doh:

Thanks,
Sabrefly.

[1lokos]

I think so:



gun 1: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 2: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball
gun 3: de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball, AP, AP
gun 4: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 5: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball
gun 6: de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball, AP, AP
gun 7: ball, ball, AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde
gun 8: AP, AP, de Wilde, de Wilde, ball, ball


Add tracer and residue in what MG you want.

Sokol1

[ATAG_Headshot]

You got it Sokol

[trademe900]

Yes I agree it is very hard to shoot down he111 now. Don't know why this one plane is incredibly tough

[Sabrefly]

Yes I agree it is very hard to shoot down he111 now. Don't know why this one plane is incredibly tough

I wouldn't say that as even I can shoot down at least one in every (offline) quick mission with the default belt but at a proper sight distance.

Sabrefly.

[trademe900]

Yes but compare it to do17 and ju88. You will see something is not right

[MiK_684]

Exactly, the other Bombers are too weak :)

[1lokos]

If not for the brave crew of this crippled He 111 that dragged back to France and made ​​a wheels-up landing... :salute:

5526

The arthritic grandma would be envy. :)

:joystick: "This thing need oil..."

Sokol1

[dburne]

Sokol, yes, I've been thinking a macro is the way to go, I'll put it on a switch on my WH throttle that I won't ever bump by mistake ;)

Reason I haven't done it yet is I keep getting an exception error when I try to run TARGET, but that's for another forum...

Cheers!

I have been running my Warthog, with my HAT2 set to increase and decrease convergence and wingspan.
However I do use Target which really helps in this regard as well.

Really interesting reading about the loadout being discussed here , think I am going to have to give it a try as I have been using default.

[dburne]

Very glad I saw this thread, I changed my loadout as mentioned in this thread, and I seem to be more effective now with my shooting.

Thanks for sharing!