View Full Version : Maximum dive speeds and wing damage
PFT_Endy
Oct-24-2013, 09:17
Hi,
I wanted to ask a few questions about the current wing damage mechanics and maximum dive speeds regarding the Spit and 109.
1) for the Spit, the current hard limit seems 430 mph. You simply can't go any faster than that without breaking an aileron or a wing off. I'm just wondering if that speed is correct though as I found the following information regarding Spitfire IIA trials:
Diving Trials
Several dives were carried out and the results are given in the following table. The diving limits for this aeroplane are:-
Maximum A.S.I. = 470 (P.E. assumed as -20 m.p.h.)
...
The aeroplane behaves in a similar fashion to the Mark I Rotol Spitfire in a dive i.e. the controls become heavier with speed, especially near the limiting speed. Considerable forward pressure on the control column is necessary to keep the aeroplane in the dive; the elevator is sensitive throughout the speed range. The rudder and ailerons become very heavy at speeds about 400 m.p.h. A.S.I., the latter being almost immovable then. However the ailerons were, if anything, a little lighter at high speeds than has been found on other Spitfires.
Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-II.html
Now, in patch 4.0 the stiffening of controls is observable of course, but my question is, does Spit II have the same aileron stiffening force as Spit I?
But mostly I'd like to know if you guys are sure that anything above 430mph would damage the wing instead of 470mph indicated like in aforementioned trials.
2) The same question but regarding 109. I found the following:
Reference Me 109 - wing breakages. Owing to continually recurring accidents caused by wing breakages in Me 109 aircraft attention is drawn to the following:
(1) The maximum permissible indicated airspeeds in the different heights are not being observed and are widely exceeded. On the basis of evidence which is now available the speed limitations ordered by teleprint message GL/6 No. 2428/41 of 10.6.41 are cancelled and replaced by the following data:
Up to 3 km (9,842 ft.) 750 km/h. (466 m.p.h.)
At 5 km (16,404 ft) 700 km/h. (435 m.p.h.)
At 7 km (22,965 ft) 575 km/h. (357 m.p.h.)
At 9 km (29,527 ft) 450 km/h. (280 m.p.h.)
At 11 km (36,089 ft) 400 km/h. (248 m.p.h.)
These limitations are valid for the time being for all building series including the Me 109 G. A corresponding notice is to be placed upon all air-speed indicators in aircraft.
2) Yawing in a dive leads to high one-sided wing stresses which, under certain circumstances, the wing tip cannot support. When a yawing condition is recognised the dive is to be broken off without exercising force. In a flying condition of yawing and turning at the same time correction must be made with the rudder and not the ailerons. The condition of wing tips is to be examined and checked with TAGL. Bf 109 Nos. 5/41 and 436/41.
Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html
Now the speed limit of 750 km/h seems more or less the same as in CLoD, with the game being a bit more forgiving as only speeds at around 800km/h pose any threat. But the problem is wing breakage here. I did not notice that tendency in the 109 so far, the only element that seems to get damaged are the ailerons. It's quite impossible to damage and break either the wing tip by yawing while in a dive or to break the whole wing by pulling up too sharply.
The thing is, the info I found was for 109 G version. Did E version have the same maximum dive speed thresholds? Do you guys have any data on it?
3) Regarding all aircraft at high speeds.
With the current model it's very difficult to overstress the wings by pulling out of the dive too sharply. The current mechanic of stiffening the control surfaces seems not to be complimentary with the possibilty of breaking your wings off if you over-g by pulling the stick too sharply while in a dive. This also affects high speed stall characteristics because, while it is possible to put the a/c into a spin while pulling up too sharply at lower speeds, the planes are totally immune to it while flying above a certain threshold and no matter how hard or fast you pull you will not enter the spin this way.
Am I correct to assume that now somehow the sensitivity of controls at high speeds are lowered and thus make it impossible to overdo with stick pulling both in terms of wing or control loss?
There was a reason that pilots had to pull very gently out of high speed dives and now this seems not to be the case. You just use brute force now and it's all good, no spin, no wing damage...
Is the current characteristic final or can this be changed to be less forgiving for a pilot in boxer gloves? :)
Hi,
I wanted to ask a few questions about the current wing damage mechanics and maximum dive speeds regarding the Spit and 109.
1) for the Spit, the current hard limit seems 430 mph. You simply can't go any faster than that without breaking an aileron or a wing off. I'm just wondering if that speed is correct though as I found the following information regarding Spitfire IIA trials:
Diving Trials
Several dives were carried out and the results are given in the following table. The diving limits for this aeroplane are:-
Maximum A.S.I. = 470 (P.E. assumed as -20 m.p.h.)
...
The aeroplane behaves in a similar fashion to the Mark I Rotol Spitfire in a dive i.e. the controls become heavier with speed, especially near the limiting speed. Considerable forward pressure on the control column is necessary to keep the aeroplane in the dive; the elevator is sensitive throughout the speed range. The rudder and ailerons become very heavy at speeds about 400 m.p.h. A.S.I., the latter being almost immovable then. However the ailerons were, if anything, a little lighter at high speeds than has been found on other Spitfires.
Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-II.html
Now, in patch 4.0 the stiffening of controls is observable of course, but my question is, does Spit II have the same aileron stiffening force as Spit I?
But mostly I'd like to know if you guys are sure that anything above 430mph would damage the wing instead of 470mph indicated like in aforementioned trials.
2) The same question but regarding 109. I found the following:
Reference Me 109 - wing breakages. Owing to continually recurring accidents caused by wing breakages in Me 109 aircraft attention is drawn to the following:
(1) The maximum permissible indicated airspeeds in the different heights are not being observed and are widely exceeded. On the basis of evidence which is now available the speed limitations ordered by teleprint message GL/6 No. 2428/41 of 10.6.41 are cancelled and replaced by the following data:
Up to 3 km (9,842 ft.) 750 km/h. (466 m.p.h.)
At 5 km (16,404 ft) 700 km/h. (435 m.p.h.)
At 7 km (22,965 ft) 575 km/h. (357 m.p.h.)
At 9 km (29,527 ft) 450 km/h. (280 m.p.h.)
At 11 km (36,089 ft) 400 km/h. (248 m.p.h.)
These limitations are valid for the time being for all building series including the Me 109 G. A corresponding notice is to be placed upon all air-speed indicators in aircraft.
2) Yawing in a dive leads to high one-sided wing stresses which, under certain circumstances, the wing tip cannot support. When a yawing condition is recognised the dive is to be broken off without exercising force. In a flying condition of yawing and turning at the same time correction must be made with the rudder and not the ailerons. The condition of wing tips is to be examined and checked with TAGL. Bf 109 Nos. 5/41 and 436/41.
Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html
Now the speed limit of 750 km/h seems more or less the same as in CLoD, with the game being a bit more forgiving as only speeds at around 800km/h pose any threat. But the problem is wing breakage here. I did not notice that tendency in the 109 so far, the only element that seems to get damaged are the ailerons. It's quite impossible to damage and break either the wing tip by yawing while in a dive or to break the whole wing by pulling up too sharply.
The thing is, the info I found was for 109 G version. Did E version have the same maximum dive speed thresholds? Do you guys have any data on it?
3) Regarding all aircraft at high speeds.
With the current model it's very difficult to overstress the wings by pulling out of the dive too sharply. The current mechanic of stiffening the control surfaces seems not to be complimentary with the possibilty of breaking your wings off if you over-g by pulling the stick too sharply while in a dive. This also affects high speed stall characteristics because, while it is possible to put the a/c into a spin while pulling up too sharply at lower speeds, the planes are totally immune to it while flying above a certain threshold and no matter how hard or fast you pull you will not enter the spin this way.
Am I correct to assume that now somehow the sensitivity of controls at high speeds are lowered and thus make it impossible to overdo with stick pulling both in terms of wing or control loss?
There was a reason that pilots had to pull very gently out of high speed dives and now this seems not to be the case. You just use brute force now and it's all good, no spin, no wing damage...
Is the current characteristic final or can this be changed to be less forgiving for a pilot in boxer gloves? :)
Im sure Buzz has gone through all those reports as we had a discussion about this on the beta testing forum as well!
I do remember reading a report that at high speed (cant remember the exact figure right now) elevator forces were so heavy that it was almost impossible to black out the pilot. And if forces were that heavy then I guess, you had to pull hard to get it out of a dive :)
PFT_Endy
Oct-24-2013, 10:29
Well, the thing is there are also reports of wings, wing tips and control surfaces snapping off after a sudden pull of the stick or yawing in a high speed dive... And in the game it's pretty much impossible to put the plane into a spin by sharply pulling the stick above, let's say 290mph.
So if it's possible to hear the reasoning behind the current solution that's be awesome. And of course that's only part of the question, the rest are maximum dive speeds for Spit I and II and 109E :)
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 13:33
The test you are reading from WWII Aircraft Performance is not a scientifically calibrated test.
As it mentions, the results were obtained by readings taken off the Air Speed Indicator. (ASI)
All in aircraft instruments in the historical aircraft were relatively crude, and therefore inaccurate. In addition, the positions they were mounted were not the best for taking correct readings.
Accurate tests would require the mounting of calibrated instruments in locations which were not subject to distortion.
If you look at the test it notes the instrument error is approx. 20 mph, therefore the speed the pilot obtained as a maximum was approx. 450 IAS mph. The maximum listed speed in the Spit IIA manual is for 450 mph IAS. But of course, pilots maintain that guideline by reading off the instruments, so in effect the recommendations end up being for less than 450 mph due to the instrument error. In effect the recommendations are for approx. 435 mph.
In the game, there is no distortion in the instrument readings, they are completely accurate. So that gives you the wrong impression.
I will look at the Spit IIA, do some tests and see if the allowable speed is too low. 430mph would be a little too low, should be higher than that.
PFT_Endy
Oct-24-2013, 14:14
Ok, so that's for Spits, thanks.
What about 109? How was that speed calculated? Was it a different method?
Also, the 109 E in the game is able to survive speeds up to 800km/h with no damage. Isn't that a bit high then in the light of these tests and what you said about instrument accuracy?
Could you also say a few words about the other thing, the wing damage/breakage and spin characteristics of current CloD aircraft while pulling hard on the stick?
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 14:39
Salute
I doubt the 109 can survive up to 800 kmh without issues. The maximum dive speed has been based on the 750 kmh listed in the 109E manual and it will encounter problems over that speed, although the exact speeds will vary.
If it actually reaches 800 kmh before losing parts, it doesn't really matter, since the aircraft would be in a non-recoverable dive and would break up anyway.
As I have said before, I am not going to post detailed explanations of why flight modelling decisions were taken. I would be posting graphs and writing explanations forever, and would never have any time for actually improving the game.
9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Oct-24-2013, 14:55
Salute
I doubt the 109 can survive up to 800 kmh without issues. The maximum dive speed has been based on the 750 kmh listed in the 109E manual and it will encounter problems over that speed, although the exact speeds will vary.
If it actually reaches 800 kmh before losing parts, it doesn't really matter, since the aircraft would be in a non-recoverable dive and would break up anyway.
As I have said before, I am not going to post detailed explanations of why flight modelling decisions were taken. I would be posting graphs and writing explanations forever, and would never have any time for actually improving the game.
Good call..
~S~
PFT_Endy
Oct-24-2013, 15:09
Thank you for your message.
As for documents, you don't need to post whole stuff like the manual you mentioned of course. If you say the 750km/h is there then I trust your words, but these words are the important part. The fact you reply, say where you got the data from, that's very valuable to me.
I very much appreciate you taking your time to reply and you really don't need to scan and copy whole documents etc. Just say that results from this and this test provided these values etc. If someone provides data to the contrary a short comment why you think your data is better would be nice.
I know it's an unpaid job but since all of us only have the TF patch to play and no alternative, it would be nice to know why this and that was changed etc. Ultimately it's always your decision what to change and how, we just use the mod, but it would just be nice, even if only from PR point of view, to see something backing such decisions. The community would surely appreciate it.
I know it's additional work but what I'd like to ask you is to not ignore questions like these - so far you're not ignoring them of course but it seems like you're hinting it's more an exception than the rule... Please don't be like the guys at 777 for example who ignore questions about FM's and would not even bother with replying when being challenged on something. I trust you're the good guys here and can find the time for a short message to reply to posts like mine :) A good example is also what Yo-Yo from ED does, posting charts and replying to questions about P51 and planned FW-190 and Spit performance, some FM details etc.
While we're at it, could I also ask for any comments on the wing damage thing while pulling the stick though? The reason why I'm asking is that it's simulated in DCS: P51 for example - if you pull your stick too hard in a dive, do some other maneuvers when the airframe is stressed then snapping your wings or control surfaces is very common. I know it's a different plane (and different sim) with different flight characteristics etc. but it seems this feature is totally missing from CloD and I was wondering what your stance on it is.
Kwiatek
Oct-24-2013, 15:38
P-51 could have better elevator effectinves at high speeds then 109 or Spitfire so it could be possible to reach ultimate G load more easier. I remember that in P-51s casue of frequently wing damages during high G manouvers there was modification to add some weight on elevator controls to make it more heavy at high speeds. Similar solution was added to SPitfire MK V casue adding more equimpent to old airframe casue aft COG postion and similar dangerous to reach ultimate load. SPitfire MK IX with heavier engine didnt have such problem.
Important is also trimm settings. If you trimm your plane to dive at high speed you will need much more time and force to pull up from dive. If you trimm to tail heavy it would be much easier to pull up and the same much easier to reach ultimate G load.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 15:41
While we're at it, could I also ask for any comments on the wing damage thing while pulling the stick though? The reason why I'm asking is that it's simulated in DCS: P51 for example - if you pull your stick too hard in a dive, do some other maneuvers when the airframe is stressed then snapping your wings or control surfaces is very common. I know it's a different plane (and different sim) with different flight characteristics etc. but it seems this feature is totally missing from CloD and I was wondering what your stance on it is.
Excess G loading causing damage is modelled in TF 4.0.
You may not notice it in the 109's, because their lack of elevator authority at high speeds reduces their ability to cause damage. But they can sometimes see 'unseen' damage during hard pullouts. This can come back to haunt a player later, with weaker wings being more susceptible to failure under gunfire etc.
The Hurricane is a little more prone to damage from hard pullouts at high speeds, although wing loss is rare, again due to lack of elevator authority.
The Spitfire on the other hand can quite easily cause major structural damage including wing loss if players apply full elevator at higher speeds. This was a function of the elevator design on the early Spits, changed in later models.
I would suggest you look at the 'Read Me'.
Regarding the DCS P-51: It is quite rightly modelled as being capable of generating enough G to do damage at high speeds. But you need to remember the P-51 was a late war aircraft, designed to maneuver at higher speeds, far more responsive than these early war aircraft. The P-51's elevator was also exceptionally responsive at high speeds.
PFT_Endy
Oct-24-2013, 16:25
Thank you for your reply.
I hope you can take the time to look at the Spitfire maximum dive speeds as it seems, according to the data you mentioned, around 20mph too low now.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation :)
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 16:27
Thank you for your reply.
I hope you can take the time to look at the Spitfire maximum dive speeds as it seems, according to the data you mentioned, around 20mph too low now.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation :)
The Spit I's had a maximum dive speed allowable of 420 mph, not 450.
Any changes would only apply to the Spit IIA. And I will need to test it. So no guarantees.
Edit; My mistake, I am at work. Dive speeds are the same, and they are the same in the game.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 16:28
Thank you for your reply.
I hope you can take the time to look at the Spitfire maximum dive speeds as it seems, according to the data you mentioned, around 20mph too low now.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation :)
Ok
Kwiatek
Oct-24-2013, 16:49
The Spit I's had a maximum dive speed allowable of 420 mph, not 450.
Any changes would only apply to the Spit IIA. And I will need to test it. So no guarantees.
I think Spitfire MKI had also maximum speed avaliable 450 Mph:
Spitfire MK I K9793 test report:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/k9793.html
" Dives were made to the limiting air speed of 450 m.p.h. without any cutting out of the engine. The maximum engine speed attained was 3450 r.p.m. "
Also here is for SPitfire MK I engine limitation settings:
5268
I see no reason why Spitfire MK I should have lower maximim dive speed then MK II expecially both had the same limit in manual - 450 mph.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 17:19
Not correct. I think Spitfire MKI had also maximum speed avaliable 450 Mph:
Spitfire MK I K9793 test report:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/k9793.html
" Dives were made to the limiting air speed of 450 m.p.h. without any cutting out of the engine. The maximum engine speed attained was 3450 r.p.m. "
Also here is for SPitfire MK I engine limitation settings:
5268
I see no reason why Spitfire MK I should have lower maximim dive speed then MK II expecially both had the same limit in manual - 450 mph.
Yes Kwiatek I know. I corrected my post.
AND in any case, the speeds are the same for both in the game.
I have a lot of figures running through my head right now as I am working on a LOT of different issues which need to be fixed and I do not have the data in front of me as I am at work.
I confused the kmh figure for max dive, which is 720 kmh for the Spitfire, with the mph figure. I use kmh when referencing max dive speeds as that is the standard in most instances in the game.
I realized after I posted, and corrected it immediately. So please relax.
Kwiatek
Oct-24-2013, 18:29
No problem mate. We are all here to help each other :thumbsup:
Just for information:
The max. end-dive-velocity of a Bf 109 F-2, test aircraft W-Nr.9882 TH+TF (with 50% reduced aileron movement, to prevent loss of the wing through increased aileron compensation), is 906 km/h or Mach 0,80. This value was measured in a 80° dive from 10700 m with a Split S and full-throttle.
Another interesting fact is that the Bf 109 C/D has an allowed max. dive velocity of 800 km/h, due to lesser wing load.
PFT_Endy
Oct-24-2013, 19:24
Interesting info for the F version.
I wonder why then they said the G version should not do more than 750 due to "continually recurring accidents caused by wing breakages in Me 109 aircraft". I doubt that order was some pointless thing, there had to be a reason which seems to be excessive wing breakage accidents, probably when exiting the dive at high speeds.
Going the same route I suspect Spits could do way more than 450 mph without critical damage (though that was suggested limit for the pilots not to exceed). Some info on that can be found in pilot stories. Someone, can't remember who, claimed to have dived at 560 mph in the tropical Spit version.
Apparently for both aircraft there was a suggested limit and real limit, but the latter is a bit tricky.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2013, 19:48
Just for information:
The max. end-dive-velocity of a Bf 109 F-2, test aircraft W-Nr.9882 TH+TF (with 50% reduced aileron movement, to prevent loss of the wing through increased aileron compensation), is 906 km/h or Mach 0,80. This value was measured in a 80° dive from 10700 m with a Split S and full-throttle.
Another interesting fact is that the Bf 109 C/D has an allowed max. dive velocity of 800 km/h, due to lesser wing load.
Salute Kodoss
Important to understand the figures you quote are in True Air Speed, not indicated. Very big difference. ;)
And as you said, the ailerons on this dive test F model had to be specifically altered, wired to very small movement allowable, to avoid the possibility of uncontrollable aileron reversal and flutter beginning, leading to wing twist, catastrophic failure and wing loss.
The speeds cannot be taken as indicative of standard 109F/early G dive capabilities.
The 109 wing loss which has been brought up was function of a related issue which is hinted at in the special modifications applied to the ailerons in this test, ie. full aileron use at high speed can result in excessive wing twist and flutter to the point of catastrophic failure. The F and later model ailerons had the capability of exerting much more lateral force than the earlier E model ailerons, much better performance at higher speeds, but this also led to more stress on the wing.
This applied through the F models and the early G's. Later models of the 109 had this issue somewhat addressed with increased wing strength and other modifications.
DennydD
Oct-25-2013, 08:08
Just a note:
Performing a generously split S from the 109 ceiling it is possible to reach ~ Mach 0,83 calculated airspeed. (~750kph IAS apex at 5400m ASL). This fits Kodoss numbers considering the less streamlined appearance of the E version.
After testing it myself, the 109 is IMHO very good modeled by TF/Buzzsaw. The new handling and engine management feels more like a real plane and not like a 100% throttle steamroll. :D
Now I look forward trying the Spit and the Hurry my 1st impressions on ATAG with the Spit left me begging for more. :salute:
Talisman
Oct-25-2013, 10:27
Buzzsaw,
Just a short note to say very many thanks for all the conscientious effort that you put in to this flight sim and your communication with the community on this forum. Salute!
Talisman
gelbevierzehn
Oct-26-2013, 14:52
Thank you for your reply.
I hope you can take the time to look at the Spitfire maximum dive speeds as it seems, according to the data you mentioned, around 20mph too low now.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation :)
Now the speed limit of 750 km/h seems more or less the same as in CLoD, with the game being a bit more forgiving as only speeds at around 800km/h pose any threat. But the problem is wing breakage here. I did not notice that tendency in the 109 so far, the only element that seems to get damaged are the ailerons. It's quite impossible to damage and break either the wing tip by yawing while in a dive or to break the whole wing by pulling up too sharply.
As a mainly 109 pilot I was wondering if it's possible to push a 109 to 800km/h (500mp/h) without damage as it is stated above. I always lost control above 750km/h (470mp/h).
So I decided to make a short track out of the Quick Mission Box with the two planes.
The Spit loses the first aileron 15mp/h earlier as the 109, but if the speed exceeds 480mp/h... well, see for yourselves...
(Please excuse the poor quality, something must be wrong with the track codecs...)
Ah, and thanks Team Fusion for that brilliant patch!!
http://youtu.be/z9hT_5q4Dgc
PFT_Endy
Oct-26-2013, 15:04
Then it appears to be a bit random since I lost a part at 430 mph every single time and I tried quite a few times in a Spit. The plane basically starts to shake very violently at 420 and when it reaches 430 it's always poof and some part is gone, no way was I able to reach the speed you seem to have achieved.
With the 109 it was, like I said, around 800km/h or slightly below. It usually happened between 780 and 800.
Perhaps it's random or depends on the angle of attack/time spent at such and such speed, I've no idea how it works under the hood. The only way to replicate the experiment would be to dive at the same dive angle, from the same altitude, at the same starting speed, straight after spawning with no other maneuvers, with same fuel quantity on board etc. etc. Maybe there's something in there we don't know about which affects diving effects.
I'll check again in a bit to make sure.
PFT_Endy
Oct-26-2013, 15:34
Yup, here's what I got after checking a few times each:
- Spit, losing a part at 430mph indicated. Every time at exactly this value. But what's strange and what I did not think about earlier is that it doesn't seem to depend on altitude at all, whether this was diving from 30.000 ft or 12.000, it's invariably 430mph indicated when I lost a part. Am I wrong to think that this should also change with altitude and down low the maximum permisable IAS should be higher and get lower the higher you get?
- 109 lost a part between 760 to 800 and once even at 740 km/h. Seems random in that area, which would confirm what Buzzsaw said, it's mostly safe to go up to 750 kmh, and above that you'll probably die, sooner or later. But again, it seems that 750 IAS is the fixed value? Because even diving from 30.000 ft up to 750 IAS was perfectly safe. Again, my question is, shouldn't that change with altitude and be much lower up there?
Kwiatek
Oct-27-2013, 10:47
It true that at higher alts maximum safe IAS speed limit was lower then at low alts. Looks for example at P-51 manual max safe speed limit: 40 000 ft - IAS 260 mph, 20 000 ft - IAS 400 mph, 5000 ft - IAS 505 mph. Unfortunately if im not wrong here CLOD engine doesn't simulate these - so maximum safe IAS speed limit would be the same at all heights.
PFT_Endy
Oct-27-2013, 11:29
It true that at higher alts maximum safe IAS speed limit was lower then at low alts. Looks for example at P-51 manual max safe speed limit: 40 000 ft - IAS 260 mph, 20 000 ft - IAS 400 mph, 5000 ft - IAS 505 mph. Unfortunately if im not wrong here CLOD engine doesn't simulate these - so maximum safe IAS speed limit would be the same at all heights.
Yeah, that's what I meant exactly, the P51 even has a plaque in the cockpit reminding the pilot of it.
Are you sure CloD does not simulate it at all or is it a matter of tweaking for different altitudes?
Kwiatek
Oct-27-2013, 11:37
Yeah, that's what I meant exactly, the P51 even has a plaque in the cockpit reminding the pilot of it.
Are you sure CloD does not simulate it at all or is it a matter of tweaking for different altitudes?
Im rather sure it does not simulate it but Buzz will know better.
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