View Full Version : Hurricane Turn Rate!!
I'm still finding that 109's can stay with my Hurricane even in the tightest turns, which is just not accurate historically, a 109 should not be able to turn with a Hurricane in a full stick back turn when coming out of a dive. :grrr:
It doesn't help that boost cut-out is now also a self destruct option for Spits and Hurri's, making the aircraft 20mph slower than they were pre TF4.0 on the deck/ at altitude.
I'm still finding that 109's can stay with my Hurricane even in the tightest turns, which is just not accurate historically, a 109 should not be able to turn with a Hurricane in a full stick back turn when coming out of a dive. :grrr:
It doesn't help that boost cut-out is now also a self destruct option for Spits and Hurri's, making the aircraft 20mph slower than they were pre TF4.0 on the deck/ at altitude.
it surely cannot!!! I have no problem out turning 109 in a Hurricane! ;)
However if you can make a track or a video of it, I would gladly have a look! :)
The Bf109 can not turn with a Hurricane! As simple as that.
Mattias
Oct-29-2013, 18:13
I have tried, despite better knowledge, and my 109 get it's butt kicked every time :D
9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Oct-29-2013, 18:45
I have tried, despite better knowledge, and my 109 get it's butt kicked every time :D
+1
Well, being as how the only people to respond so far are 109 pilots, please can I, as a purely red pilot, say that during a nice little dogfight between me in a Hurri and three 109s over Cap Gris Nez, I was running rings around 'em. All three of 'em.
They got me in the end, through sheer weight of numbers, but at no stage did any one of them out-turn me.
:salute:
I have flown the Hurricane lots and lots lately! ;)
She is wonderful isnt she??!!
I have flown the Hurricane lots and lots lately! ;)
She is wonderful isnt she??!!
Yep, you an' yer bruv better watch out over Dunkirk from here on. :D :getaway:
OP, I don't know where your getting this.
Every 109 that has gone into a turn fight with me has fallen to my guns or collided with me.
And I have no issue with the boost cut out either, but I don't try to run it from engine start to landing like a retard either.
Sorry OP but your doing it wrong.
ACG will do a formal test for this with data and post the results in video - we're certainly committed now. Please consider that ACG are history people, Allied and Axis, not interested in winning whatsoever so I can promise this will be impartial and involve both sides.
Best lock this to save any argument, thanks.
Oersted
Oct-30-2013, 17:34
could be due to joystick settings, not getting the full deflection...
Catseye
Oct-30-2013, 17:51
ACG will do a formal test for this with data and post the results in video - we're certainly committed now. Please consider that ACG are history people, Allied and Axis, not interested in winning whatsoever so I can promise this will be impartial and involve both sides.
Best lock this to save any argument, thanks.
And TF are not??
And TF don't have data??
Just revisiting this.
I didn't say either, not sure how you pulled that statement out but hey ho. I've been doing some Hurricane testing and found that the speeds are actually very good to RL @ the FTH. There are problems with climb and turn though, with the Hurricane underperforming
From testing online in AX dogfight and ATAG the Spitfire will out turn the Hurricane. In real life this was not correct, the Hurricane would out turn the Spitfire, in the initial turn until energy was bled out, then the Spitfire was equal. There are a few sources which ratify the superior turn of the Hurricane online.
Turn rate data in this thread:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=20110
Kwaitek posted it, he's a TF allied FM guy afaik. I cannot see how you can set up a turn radius test, but you can compare with a Spitfire easily by just going around in circles at different speeds. The Spitfire has no trouble getting inside the Hurricane.
It also fits with the climb rate of the Hurricane being too low. I measured the climb in ATAG and have a load of stats in a spreadsheet from this testing data (Rotol Hurricane L2026 6316lbs)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/l2026.html
(part of http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-I.html)
Summary
@ 2600rpm and full throttle (6.25lbs) the Hurricane is 40 seconds too slow to 10kft, 1 minute too slow to 15kft, 1.5mins too slow to 20kft and 2.5mins too slow to 25kft. This testing was against the settings in the climb tests by FAE, Boscombe Down, 12th June 1940, mimicked on ATAG. From what I understood from Buzzsaw in the past with FM changes a subtle adjustment of wing lift would increase turn and climb - there is certainly room for adjustment in the Hurricane anyway, it needs to climb and turn a little better to match RL performance.
Are there tests that validate the numbers of the current FM?
Are there tests that validate the numbers of the current FM?
You don't just type in exact values that you want for rollrate, speed, climb, turn and overheating. Changing the FM in Cliffs of Dover is alot of trial and error! No game will ever have a 100% accurate FM, ever! However I guess that Cliffs will come as close to reality with 4.01 as no other game before. :salute:
I am sure that there is trial and error however I am pointing out some test results in TF4.0 in order that perhaps some more trial and error can occur, rather than just leaving it alone. I would consider that a climb to 25kft being 2.5 mins too slow and being out turned by an aircraft one should be out turning is a large difference, significant enough to attempt to fix. If it were a lot closer I wouldn't have been bothered really, but it isn't. The Hurricane was 65% of the RAF in 1940 and yes, it was a class below the 109 however one of the reasons we see so few of them online is because it is 2 classes below in game - correct this and you may see more Hurricane love.
Many thanks for looking at these particular issues Black, I'm sorry I was so late in this report :thumbsup: Hopefully though this has already been spotted, noted, tested and fixed, if Catseye's assurance is anything to go by.
LuseKofte
Dec-29-2013, 05:49
I am against improving any single aircraft in a simulator. Every time that had be done it outperform planes it should not .
I flown over a year with a 110 where the hurricane was faster in a shallow dive and level flight after it.
This is a sim and all FM must be historical adjusted toward each other , that is more important than a single plane performing as real deal.
This is a simulator, you will not get torque , wind ,lift and downdraft for real, it is simulated.
You will find 109 pilots that want to improve their mount with the same good argument as you do
This is a sim and all FM must be historical adjusted toward each other , that is more important than a single plane performing as real deal.
I don't think so to be honest, a sim is all about historical accuracy, balancing should never be a concern in a simulator in my opinion!
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-29-2013, 16:08
Salute
At this point I will not be changing the Hurricane.
It is not perfect, there will never be a simulation made which is perfect, but it is as close to accurate as we can do with the tools we have.
It's climb is actually approx. 45 seconds too fast to 30,000 ft, using the the very carefully calibrated tools we have and the methodology which is used similarly for testing all aircraft. Speeds to lower altitudes vary but are close to the figures listed in the historical documents.
Here is a test of the game Hurricane, done at the boost and rpm settings which are available in historical documentation for a Rotol Hurricane:
500 0:19 (0:19)
1000 0:31 (0:11)
1500 0:41 (0:10)
2000 0:52 (0:11)
2500 1:07 (0:14)
3000 1:22 (0:15)
3500 1:38 (0:15)
4000 1:51 (0:12)
4500 2:02 (0:11)
5000 2:14 (0:11) Historical Rotol Hurricane at 2600 rpm and +6 boost: 2:21
5500 2:27 (0:12)
6000 2:41 (0:14)
6500 2:54 (0:13)
7000 3:09 (0:14)
7500 3:22 (0:12)
8000 3:35 (0:13)
8500 3:48 (0:13)
9000 4:01 (0:12)
9500 4:15 (0:13)
10000 4:29 (0:13) Rotol: 4:30
10500 4:41 (0:12)
11000 4:56 (0:14)
11500 5:14 (0:18)
12000 5:28 (0:13)
12500 5:42 (0:13)
13000 6:00 (0:18)
13500 6:15 (0:14)
14000 6:33 (0:18)
14500 6:54 (0:20)
15000 7:09 (0:15) Rotol 6:51
15500 7:29 (0:19)
16000 7:44 (0:15)
16500 8:05 (0:20)
17000 8:20 (0:15)
17500 8:38 (0:17)
18000 8:54 (0:16)
18500 9:14 (0:19)
19000 9:31 (0:17)
19500 9:49 (0:17)
20000 10:11 (0:22) Rotol 9:45
20500 10:33 (0:21)
21000 10:54 (0:21)
21500 11:15 (0:20)
22000 11:31 (0:16)
22500 11:47 (0:16)
23000 12:19 (0:32) Rotol 12:03
23500 12:49 (0:29)
24000 13:16 (0:27)
24500 13:39 (0:23)
25000 14:20 (0:40)
25500 14:45 (0:25)
26000 15:32 (0:46) Rotol 15:06
26500 15:52 (0:20)
27000 16:35 (0:43)
27500 17:16 (0:41)
28000 17:35 (0:18) Rotol 17:57
28500 19:21 (1:46)
29000 19:46 (0:24)
29500 20:35 (0:48)
30000 21:14 (0:39) Rotol 22:06
Times are quite a bit better than historical at the maximum altitude, but considering the E-3 reaches the same altitude in approx. 14:00 minutes at its known test rpms and boost, there is really no comparison. Overall this is as good as we can get within the limits of the game and our ability to program.
Original historical tests are here:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/l2026.html
Speeds are 1-2 mph too fast throughout the range.
As far as its turn rate, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to say the Hurricane turns better than the Spitfire. There are no objective tests I have seen. If you would like to provide some, I'd certainly be interested in seeing them. Very likely it did turn better initially, but also very likely it could not sustain a better turn due to its inferior power loading and poorer aerodynamics. The Hurricane was approx. 300 pounds heavier, and had significantly higher drag factors while being propelled by exactly the same engine power. The Spitfire had slightly better wingloading, the Hurricane had a higher lift aerofoil, which as I mentioned, incurred higher drag.
All of this points to the Hurricane having an initial turn slightly better, with it losing this advantage as it bleeds energy and speed. Which is modelled in the game.
---
And no, I will not be releasing the climb times, speeds etc. for all aircraft.
If people feel they can do better, we would encourage them to start a mod of their own.
This is my last comment on this topic. :salute:
Davis0079
Dec-29-2013, 16:19
@ RAF74_Buzzsaw....I love you man.....you and your team are the only reason this game is so good....but I do fly 109s...so what do I know...
Thanks for responding and posting these figures Buzzsaw, it has allowed me to cross check and I can now see that they are for the 6750lbs Hurricane and not the 6316lbs Hurricane. And in game the fully fuelled Hurricane is 6732lbs so very good, I stand corrected here. Thanks for taking the time to reply and it's great when you find out that some things are so close like this.
If it helps, my climb test figures came out almost identical to yours.
Regarding turn, the information is from Kwaitek as linked but I recall seeing a chart and a few other things in the past. If I find something I'll pass it on though. Still, I don't really have to be concerned with out turning Spitfires, only 109s.
~S~
trademe900
Dec-29-2013, 18:43
Salute
As far as its turn rate, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to say the Hurricane turns better than the Spitfire. There are no objective tests I have seen. If you would like to provide some, I'd certainly be interested in seeing them. Very likely it did turn better initially, but also very likely it could not sustain a better turn due to its inferior power loading and poorer aerodynamics. The Hurricane was approx. 300 pounds heavier, and had significantly higher drag factors while being propelled by exactly the same engine power. The Spitfire had slightly better wingloading, the Hurricane had a higher lift aerofoil, which as I mentioned, incurred higher drag.
All of this points to the Hurricane having an initial turn slightly better, with it losing this advantage as it bleeds energy and speed. Which is modelled in the game.
:
This is a very interesting post- thanks buzzsaw.
I would like to know the reasoning behind why you think the hurricane had the better initial turn. Is it due to the elevator design?
LuseKofte
Dec-30-2013, 06:40
I don't think so to be honest, a sim is all about historical accuracy, balancing should never be a concern in a simulator in my opinion!
I agree totally if all the FM was done accurate. I would not mind any changes. But fixing just one would be plane wrong. You need to get the simulation realistic
9./JG52 Ziegler
Dec-30-2013, 07:38
[QUOTE=I would like to know the reasoning behind why you think the hurricane had the better initial turn. Is it due to the elevator design? [/QUOTE]
He says the hurri had a higher lift airfoil. That would be the biggest factor for initially better turn rate.
PS: to the OP Azref, you should not be able to pull "full stick back" coming out of a dive in the first place.
Not without suffering the G consequence of wings folding or at least blackout.
He says the hurri had a higher lift airfoil. That would be the biggest factor for initially better turn rate.
PS: to the OP Azref, you should not be able to pull "full stick back" coming out of a dive in the first place.
Not without suffering the G consequence of wings folding or at least blackout.
It's more complex than that, a high lift aerofoil produces more drag, but drag is squared with speed, so the Hurri aerofoil will (and did) produce more drag as speed increases, but as speed decreases so does total drag, you have power loading , but that only tells you how much weight each HP drags around, then we have wing loading, or how much wing you have to carry the weight, but what is not stated is Lift Loading, take three same dimensioned wings with different NACA profiles and each one will provide different levels of lift per MPH, the higher lift profile will produce more drag as speed increases but will also produce more lift at lower speed, a lower lift profile will then require a higher angle of attack to achieve the same lift which will increase the drag produced, so there's a crossover point where the higher lift profile actually produces less drag for a given speed due to AoA.
The Hurricane wing will be more efficient in the lower speed range it's profile is designed for, and will produce less drag than the lower lift higher speed profiles at lower speed.
So it's dependant on speed but the Hurricane should be able to out turn a Spit when the wing is operating in the speed range it's best suited to!
There is no "best" aerofoil profile, each has virtues dependant on the speed range it is designed to work at, otherwise there would be only one profile which could be applied to everything from a Fokker Triplane to a Eurofighter Typhoon and that is very much not the case!
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-30-2013, 14:17
Deleted post. Should have been posted on Beta forum.
Wrong thread Buzz?
Not referring to stall speeds here?
ATAG_Lolsav
Dec-30-2013, 14:32
giggles :roflmao:
trademe900
Dec-30-2013, 16:24
It's more complex than that, a high lift aerofoil produces more drag, but drag is squared with speed, so the Hurri aerofoil will (and did) produce more drag as speed increases, but as speed decreases so does total drag, you have power loading , but that only tells you how much weight each HP drags around, then we have wing loading, or how much wing you have to carry the weight, but what is not stated is Lift Loading, take three same dimensioned wings with different NACA profiles and each one will provide different levels of lift per MPH, the higher lift profile will produce more drag as speed increases but will also produce more lift at lower speed, a lower lift profile will then require a higher angle of attack to achieve the same lift which will increase the drag produced, so there's a crossover point where the higher lift profile actually produces less drag for a given speed due to AoA.
The Hurricane wing will be more efficient in the lower speed range it's profile is designed for, and will produce less drag than the lower lift higher speed profiles at lower speed.
So it's dependant on speed but the Hurricane should be able to out turn a Spit when the wing is operating in the speed range it's best suited to!
There is no "best" aerofoil profile, each has virtues dependant on the speed range it is designed to work at, otherwise there would be only one profile which could be applied to everything from a Fokker Triplane to a Eurofighter Typhoon and that is very much not the case!
Quality information. good read- thanks.
The hurricane currently can not out turn the spitfire at any speed range I feel.
9./JG52 Ziegler
Dec-30-2013, 19:34
I was just trying to be succinct Gromit. Airfoils are always a compromise. :salute:
I agree totally if all the FM was done accurate. I would not mind any changes. But fixing just one would be plane wrong. You need to get the simulation realistic
But it wasn't an issue when asking for bf110 performance fixes. Sorry but I find posts like this detrimental to the development of CoD.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-31-2013, 08:44
And so it will go back and forth......
Certainly, I've had my own grumbles flying my favourite aircraft, as many of us have flying Red or Blue in one situation or another. Team Fusion is working towards getting ALL the aircraft as close to documented specs as close as possible and as the in-game coding enables. That's the way it should be. Thanks goes to Buzzsaw for taking the time towards giving us a little insight into how the Hurricane Rotol's climb rate was assessed and tweaked. I'm confident the same degree of care and accuracy was applied to every aircraft in Cliffs of Dover.
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