View Full Version : 109 E1 tips and tactics ?
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 05:39
E1 Pilots please check in and offer some knowledge on this one.
I fly the E3 and E4 version mostly (non 'N' to avoid the haters)
Recently being trying to build up some level of competence on the E1 however it is proving difficult unless you have your back covered by a wingy or 2 or 3.
Not being as fast/powerful you almost feel like a big bulls eye is painted on the airframe. It turns very well if you keep it up at around 300 but the problem is just that.
If you do get bounced it is practically impossible to get out of it, only a matter of time.
I have managed to survive for long periods just scissoring, barrel rolls with rudder to eploit the roll rate at 250-300kph but even with a noob pilot in a hurri or Spit it is proving difficult to force them to make a huge enough mistake for me to get some advantage.
Even BnZ I seem to bleed to much speed on the climb out, no matter the angle, and get hauled in by the Brits.
I am keen to hear your input, tactics and tips from those that have mastered this machine.
Thx
ATAG_Lolsav
Dec-03-2013, 08:21
I love the E1. Yes it has a weaker engine but its strong points are others. It has a slightly better turn rate (not enough to out turn a spit) and it is lighter.
Recovering altitude: Make sure on a dive you are not hanging the speed behind by not dropping the rpm (go to 9:30 or 8:30 position on clock, depending on speed), and after a pass the safe recovery for altitude should be:
a) extend first
b) start a shallow climb incresing prop pitch along the climb (preference for the right - in case your beeing followed)
c) keep situational awareness as possible
Turn:
For 2 things only.
1. To get a slash shot on enemy
2. When completely out of options.
The excell of 109 its the Roll Rate, where (with luck involved) it can turn the tide, ending up behind enemy. Its a question of managing throtle and using experience + best judgement on when to do try to "trick" the enemy. But this could eventually work against 1 enemy. If you have 2 or 3.. you need to have a talk with God itself or prepare to bail ;)
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 10:23
Cool thanks Lolsav, yup the roll rate will keep you alive for a while, I need to manage the throttle better and try and get the buggers to overshoot a bit in a twisting barrel roll type move. Only need a little gap and once behind them their war will be over.
ATAG_Colander
Dec-03-2013, 13:27
Also, surprise is your best ally. Once the enemy pilot knows you're there, getting enough bullets on them to make some damage will be very difficult.
Is better to extend, climb and look for another target than stick around and try to DF.
9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-03-2013, 14:04
Also, surprise is your best ally. Once the enemy pilot knows you're there, getting enough bullets on them to make some damage will be very difficult.
Is better to extend, climb and look for another target than stick around and try to DF.
E1 is a nice Dogfighter :)
ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Dec-03-2013, 16:56
The E1 is light and has a great rate of climb. I find it's the most forgiving bf 109 second to the E4/N. Just climb like a maniac. :-P
Here, I just posted this video in a different thread before I saw this one. I'd never be able to do this in an E-3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vToXgzPPTyk
It's pretty sloppy flying on my part. I was being way too aggressive. You can see I make a few high G turns to try and get a shot or two, but pay attention to when I chose not to turn, or when I ease off into a shallow turn, that's when I'm really working to keep an energy advantage. It's all an energy game. Trying to press enough attacks to keep the enemy's energy state down, and trying to keep yourself in a position where you're out of his firing solution.
Basically When he turns tighter I climb steeper, and when he starts to straighten out to gain speed, I try to press an attack. I didn't give myself much breathing room, we were at pretty close energy states the whole fight. If another spitfire would have jumped in, I would have been toast.
It gets a little more interesting at ~7:00 because I lose track of the Pirat, and I do a panic split-S when I hear his bullets hit. I lose my advantage for a bit and start pulling high Yo Yo's that wind up in head on passes to try and get above him. I usually do everything in my power to avoid head on passes (because of my terrible aim and bad luck), but I felt if I would have just tried to stall climb, I would have been too easy of a target and he would have shot me to ribbons. I find the Yo Yo is the easiest way to steal back altitude in a tight spot.
Fun dogfight, but I need to stop closing my eyes when I shoot: :shoot: :flying:
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-03-2013, 17:14
I didn't give myself much breathing room, we were at pretty close energy states the whole fight. If another spitfire would have jumped in, I would have been toast.
Yes, where you were off the coast, this is a bit of a gamble.
Fun dogfight, but I need to stop closing my eyes when I shoot: :shoot: :flying:
:)
E1 Pilots please check in and offer some knowledge on this one.
I fly the E3 and E4 version mostly (non 'N' to avoid the haters)
Recently being trying to build up some level of competence on the E1 however it is proving difficult unless you have your back covered by a wingy or 2 or 3.
Not being as fast/powerful you almost feel like a big bulls eye is painted on the airframe. It turns very well if you keep it up at around 300 but the problem is just that.
If you do get bounced it is practically impossible to get out of it, only a matter of time.
I have managed to survive for long periods just scissoring, barrel rolls with rudder to eploit the roll rate at 250-300kph but even with a noob pilot in a hurri or Spit it is proving difficult to force them to make a huge enough mistake for me to get some advantage.
Even BnZ I seem to bleed to much speed on the climb out, no matter the angle, and get hauled in by the Brits.
I am keen to hear your input, tactics and tips from those that have mastered this machine.
Thx
It worries me when you say things (about the 109 E 1) like; "It turns very well if you keep it up around 300 etc..." Obviously, everyone turns in the air. We can't just go around flying in straight lines all the time so turning is necessary. However when you are engaged in combat one thing you must never do, in a 109, is to follow a Spit or Hurricane into a 'turn'. If you are diving on an Allied aircraft and it breaks to avoid you, don't follow it, just lift your nose and keep flying straight and climb. If his turn is a bit 'lazy' you can 'roll' into him a little and loose off a few rounds but then you must roll back again and go straight and climb. Once at a safe altitude above your enemy you can then turn back and commence another attack. If you repeat this approach he will continue to bleed energy and speed until eventually he will be completely out of options. In these circumstances, his only salvation will be the intervention of one or more of his comrades. Sometimes, if a fight drags on you are better advised to leave him for another day. If you are over the UK it is always just a matter of time before more Reds arrive so, use your judgment.
If you are getting caught and are having difficulty escaping I strongly suspect you are flying too low. As a rule of thumb I like to stay above 3k when over the UK. Usually I'm more likely to be found around 5-6k. If you are down at 1.5k, for example, over somewhere like Hawkeing then your chances of survival are small. To survive, a 109 needs room to move. In particular you need to be in a position to dive away when caught. The Split S is your friend in this situation. The Split S works because it reverses your direction. Obviously, if you fly around Hawkinge at 3-4 hundred meters off the deck all you can do if attacked is turn or run. If you have high energy you may just stay ahead of the gunfire but then again maybe not. If you try and out-turn a Spit or Hurricane in this situation it's all over. The lesson to learn from this is don't get yourself into situations where you end up trying to out-turn a turn fighter.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-03-2013, 17:46
Re. the E-1, am thinking about putting together some server setups which are pre-BoB or early BoB, and which matches up the E-1 against the Hurricane I Rotol 100 octane.
Any comments on that type of matchup? Or will people miss their Spitfires and cannon armed 109's too much?;)
9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-03-2013, 17:57
Re. the E-1, am thinking about putting together some server setups which are pre-BoB or early BoB, and which matches up the E-1 against the Hurricane I Rotol 100 octane.
Any comments on that type of matchup? Or will people miss their Spitfires and cannon armed 109's too much?;)
Good idea
&
Nope
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 18:05
It worries me when you say things (about the 109 E 1) like; "It turns very well if you keep it up around 300 etc..." Obviously, everyone turns in the air. We can't just go around flying in straight lines all the time so turning is necessary. .
Stand back, Cpt Obvious has arrived!!!!
6090
Excuse me for being a little blunt, but that's an anal remark!
Each airframe through the history of time has strentghs and weaknesses. One of the strengths of the E1, imho is that it turn better than say an E3 at that airpseed, maybe I am wrong but certainly to me it gets its forward facing weapons on a target much quicker, it bleeds the speed due to the lower powered engine though. It has an ability, be it because of its design, weight, wing, whatever, to get its nose around faster than an E3.
Each airframe should and will do this better at differing airspeeds, none are identical in real life, and if they are identical in a sim/game the sim/game is crap. Simple.
You fly to the strengths of the plane you are flying, I am merely requesting from those that have more experience in this airframe to perhaps offer some advice.
The E1 does turn very well at that airspeed, imho again.
I can look after myself in an E3 most times and feel very comfortable, in an E1 not the case.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-03-2013, 18:12
Couple comments about performance between E-1's and E-3's/E-4's:
There is very little difference in climb and speed between these aircraft under 3000 meters.
Over that, the older style supercharger in the E-1 starts to run out of omph.
Obviously there is a weight difference, the E-1 has less Kg's due to less armour and the differences between the MG's in the wings and the Cannon in the later models, plus of course the ammo weight difference. So the E-1 will turn better initially, although at higher altitudes in sustained and climbing turns, the E-3's will start to regain that difference.
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 18:17
Buzz, I find the E1 exponentially slower at that alt to that of the E3. The E3 accelerates much faster in level flight.
If I am flying with a squady who is in an E1, me E3 I have to hold back a lot to maintain formo?
ATAG_Lolsav
Dec-03-2013, 18:19
Any comments on that type of matchup? Or will people miss their Spitfires and cannon armed 109's too much?;)
Bring it on. I´ll fly for the side with less planes and i like them both anyways.
Sidenote on "tone" of our friend
Vlerkies:
Please dont use that approach on these forums. We are a friendly commnunity and we like to have it that way. That was a blantant direct attack on someones post. Im sure you can be more nicer and, at same time if you wish, to be "acid" with a joke. A comment like the one you made its just out of bounds. You are free to think and write what you want as long you dont attack another member from community like that!
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 18:21
Re. the E-1, am thinking about putting together some server setups which are pre-BoB or early BoB, and which matches up the E-1 against the Hurricane I Rotol 100 octane.
Any comments on that type of matchup? Or will people miss their Spitfires and cannon armed 109's too much?;)
E1 and Hurri's, That sounds like a cracking idea!
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 18:24
Bring it on. I´ll fly for the side with less planes and i like them both anyways.
Sidenote on "tone" of our friend :
Please dont use that approach on these forums. We are a friendly commnunity and we like to have it that way. That was a blantant direct attack on someones post. Im sure you can be more nicer and, at same time if you wish, to be "acid" with a joke. A comment like the one you made its just out of bounds. You are free to think and write what you want as long you dont attack another member from community like that!
No problem,
It worries me when you say things (about the 109 E 1) like; "It turns very well if you keep it up around 300 etc..." Obviously, everyone turns in the air.
???????????????
Stand back, Cpt Obvious has arrived!!!!
6090
Excuse me for being a little blunt, but that's an anal remark!
Each airframe through the history of time has strentghs and weaknesses. One of the strengths of the E1, imho is that it turn better than say an E3 at that airpseed, maybe I am wrong but certainly to me it gets its forward facing weapons on a target much quicker, it bleeds the speed due to the lower powered engine though. It has an ability, be it because of its design, weight, wing, whatever, to get its nose around faster than an E3.
Each airframe should and will do this better at differing airspeeds, none are identical in real life, and if they are identical in a sim/game the sim/game is crap. Simple.
You fly to the strengths of the plane you are flying, I am merely requesting from those that have more experience in this airframe to perhaps offer some advice.
The E1 does turn very well at that airspeed, imho again.
I can look after myself in an E3 most times and feel very comfortable, in an E1 not the case.
Wow.... OK, sorry Vlerkies m8, I was just trying to help but clearly you the man and you know what you're doing so ... :goodluck:
Vlerkies
Dec-03-2013, 23:44
Wow.... OK, sorry Vlerkies m8, I was just trying to help but clearly you the man and you know what you're doing so ... :goodluck:
Wulf, I found the first line in your post rather condescending, which elicited the response. If that was genuinely not your intention then I gracefully apologize.
If I knew what I was doing I would not have asked in the first place.
ATAG_NakedSquirrel, thanks for the vid and summary. That gives me hope :salute:
Dutch, silver bullets loaded in my belt! :-P
9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-04-2013, 03:29
Buzz, I find the E1 exponentially slower at that alt to that of the E3. The E3 accelerates much faster in level flight.
If I am flying with a squady who is in an E1, me E3 I have to hold back a lot to maintain formo?
Hi m8,
You are correct but its marginal.. up to 3k like for like PP,Rad & Oil the E1 will accelerate slightly quicker and climb slightly better but its not got the same grunt at max speed level flight as the other models and your be chased down very quickly by Enemy fighters..
It is more than capable of holding a turn fight with a spit not so much a hurri upto 3k (pilot depending obviously) mainly because its ability to climb at the same time (weight)..
Now we know not to do this but if I am in a E1 I Will turn fight in it if the situation arises and I have no risk of other EA joining the party or I have top cover....
I like the E1 but as I fly the high game its not for me..
Wulf, I found the first line in your post rather condescending, which elicited the response. If that was genuinely not your intention then I gracefully apologize.
If I knew what I was doing I would not have asked in the first place.
ATAG_NakedSquirrel, thanks for the vid and summary. That gives me hope :salute:
Dutch, silver bullets loaded in my belt! :-P
No, I certainly wasn't trying to be condescending so apology accepted.
In your original post you noted that the E 1 turns reasonably well. I don't know, for a fact, whether this is true but I suspect you're right. Relative to the turning performance of the other 109s in the E series, the E 1 probably turns the best. However, that doesn't change the fact that when compared with a Spit or a Hurricane, the turning performance of the E 1 remains relatively mediocre. So, the point I was trying to make is that 'turning', while obviously useful at times, should be disregarded when developing offensive tactics for the 109. The fact that you mentioned turning, at all, suggests to me that you may be attempting to use 'turn' in your encounters with RAF fighters - as an offensive tactic. If this is what you're doing then IMO, you're making a serious mistake.
I've only looked at the first few minutes of NakedSquirrel's video clip but from what I could see it provides a good demonstration of what, IMO, you should and should not do when fighting in a 109. I suspect NS would agree with this. As you will note from the clip, the initial attack goes well. NS dives, shoots, stays straight and climbs to re-position for a new attack. However, from about the 2.15 mark things start to go a little pear-shaped and by 2.35 quite wrong (again, IMO). At this point NS is attempting to follow his target into a turn. As I suspect he would openly acknowledge, this is a mistake. It's a mistake because you are unlikely to out-turn your opponent and it's a mistake because you lose energy and as a consequence jeopardize your ability to extend safely to a position where you can initiate another attack. If that sequence had gone unchecked, NS would have found himself in a turn-fight he was ill-equipped to win. (NS, feel free to jump in here if you think I'm wrong)
Fighting in the E 1 is done in much the same way as it is done in any 109. If you fight alone, maintain altitude as best you can, keep your speed up, only engage opposition fighters that are co-alt or lower, NEVER follow an enemy into a turn and go for the deck (extend at speed) when things go tits-up.
ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Dec-04-2013, 07:04
I've only looked at the first few minutes of NakedSquirrel's video clip but from what I could see it provides a good demonstration of what, IMO, you should and should not do when fighting in a 109.
Yep that's a pretty good summation :)
Some of those turns were a gamble, but I'm pretty comfortable with the E-1 and I had enough energy to get away with it. The E-1 and E4/N can "turn," but that's relative to other 109 models. You can't just ''turn'' in a Bf109 (unless you really love getting shot down). I'm not sure how obvious it is in the video, but I build up a lot of speed before I make any of those turns. I'm almost pulling enough G's to black out.
And yes, I definitely get greedy and dumb at 2:35 because of blood-lust and liquid courage. :coffeeyes:
It wasn't really a mistake, it was done on purpose. I think I was flying with MiK and Keller initially, but we must have gotten separated over England. We had been flying for almost an hour, and we'd been in petty dogfights all over England. It sounds like MiK spotted me and jumped into the engagement for a pass, but he was winchester and had to RtB. It's a lot easier to make the enemy bleed energy when there's more than 1 of you making passes.
Even though I was turning with the spit, I still had enough energy advantage to make an Immelman turn over him. The turns I pull in the 109 are a lot different than the Spit. They start wide so that I can pick up speed, and then I'll pull back hard on the stick to get a shot. It almost looks like I hesitate at 2:35, but I'm just picking up speed and letting him get some distance so that I can get a shot. The E1 can't actually turn with a Spitfire, but it can turn tight enough to give you a few extra shots. I usually stop turning when my slats pop out. They are a pretty good indicator that you are low on speed, plus it's too keep the plane steady enough to hit anything when they are out.
After the the Immelman I pull off and start a slow climbing turn, which is the E1's strong point. It's a little slow, but it's light. It climbs well at low speeds as long as you keep your slats in.
The video isn't a good example of how best to fly the E-1, but it shows that it's a very forgiving and very capable aircraft.
9./JG52 Ziegler
Dec-04-2013, 08:34
For me the E1 take a little longer to get up to speed, but once you get there and manage prop and power correctly can be used to effect as long as you energy fight with it and avoid bleeding energy in turns.
It's guns platform is weaker now compared to the other models and your barrel roll move, IMO should only be a last ditch, because you're about to be killed, maneuver.
The "default" move (for me) is always to bunt the nose down and extend, extend, extent. Climb back up, find another to drop on, make the pass, rinse and repeat. :thumbsup:
Vlerkies
Dec-05-2013, 00:59
Thanks for the replies folks
For me the E1 take a little longer to get up to speed, but once you get there and manage prop and power correctly can be used to effect as long as you energy fight with it and avoid bleeding energy in turns.
It's guns platform is weaker now compared to the other models and your barrel roll move, IMO should only be a last ditch, because you're about to be killed, maneuver.
The "default" move (for me) is always to bunt the nose down and extend, extend, extent. Climb back up, find another to drop on, make the pass, rinse and repeat. :thumbsup:
On prop pitch I think this is where I bleed my energy more, I dive and reduce the pitch so as not to overrev as I gather speed, when I extend I tend to go up at a gentle angle but find myself chasing the prop pitch all the time. If I am been harassed I often forget about the engine note/tone before its to late and the energy is gone. Oddly this is not a problem for me in an E3 so much, maybe I am just imagining it.
Also perhaps my 'gentle' angle up is not so gentle and I need to extend away more level to give me more time to manage the prop.
I think I have my turns down nicely. It is seldom the leading edge slats come out at all and I think I am flying pretty smooth.
The theory seems consistent and most of it I have been using, the discipline I think while flying is lacking. My 109 seems to have a tractor beam on its nose and if it sees a Spit low and slow it turns towards it on its own :)
VO101_Kurfurst
Dec-12-2013, 08:10
Re. the E-1, am thinking about putting together some server setups which are pre-BoB or early BoB, and which matches up the E-1 against the Hurricane I Rotol 100 octane.
Any comments on that type of matchup? Or will people miss their Spitfires and cannon armed 109's too much?;)
Its only a guess, but I do not think there was ever a historical situation where Blue would flew "E-1 only". The production of the E-1 and E-3 started at the same time in late 1938, in fact they were practically the same planes with different armament fitted into their universal wing. Think of C-wing Spitfires..
con3para
Dec-12-2013, 11:33
6223
+1 on what wolf said ,
don't turn , on your attack you have one chance , hit and run gain height and re-attack if possible , the E1 can turn better than the E3 - 4 , i love flying the E1 , remember the firepower isn't as punchy as the E3-4 , aim well , follow through and extend ..
In a dive i drop the throttle back , don't let the revs get above 25 or engines over heat and rads go , in combat i have pitch set to - 9:30 - 22:00 , oil half closed and rad one turn closed , i find if you close up rads you over heat very quickly ,
Vlerkies
Dec-24-2013, 03:47
An update.
I have been flying the E1 now for quite a while and hardly flown any other aircraft.
I really really am enjoying it.
The experience has taught me a lot about the radiator/temperature control of the 109 in general in order to eek out as much performance as I can out of the engine without destroying it.
It has been a good learning curve and it helps a lot when you have confidence in this knowing that the engine wont let you down when you need it most.
Right after takeoff I settle back to 1.2 ATA and 2200rpm. She will fly forever like this and climbs well to at about a 20 deg angle. In the cruise you can drop the ATA to 1 no problem and maintain airspeed.
Shortly after the take off as well once airspeed is up to 350kph I will half close oil rad and one swing on the water rad as well and leave it there. (tend to only fiddle rads after I have reached my cruise Alt)
Trick is not to fly lower than 300kph with high ATA with rads like this, she will cook, so just keep the airspeed up and all is good.
I tend to fly it around the 3K mark but not really higher and I have been selecting my targets very carefully as best I can in an effort to make retirement age :)
I know I should not, but the E1 can turn very nicely with a Hurricane with reduction of throttle and a slight increase in the nose attitude.
If it is a 1 vs 1 with no other threats I will TnB for a little then extend again, rinse and repeat.
The actual platform (from a gunnery perspective) is a lot more stable when firing all 4 guns (no big canon recoil) and I have noticed it is quite devastating if you hit the sweet spot of convergence to target.
Overall, my new favorite ride :thumbsup:
Thanks for all the tips, :salute:
indyscout
Dec-24-2013, 04:54
Re. the E-1, am thinking about putting together some server setups which are pre-BoB or early BoB, and which matches up the E-1 against the Hurricane I Rotol 100 octane.
Any comments on that type of matchup? Or will people miss their Spitfires and cannon armed 109's too much?;)
Played a map like that on the Storm of War server when Atag was down one night, had a blast, I would defiantly enjoy a map like that.
9./JG52 Jamz Dackel
Dec-24-2013, 06:39
Played a map like that on the Storm of War server when Atag was down one night, had a blast, I would defiantly enjoy a map like that.
Yes..was there any update on that map Buzz?
9./JG52_J-HAT
Dec-24-2013, 07:27
Not wanting to hijack, maybe we should open a new thread for your new mission Buzzsaw.
But was 100 oct always available or was it introduced at some point during the Battle of Britain and only to some squads?
I mean, the 87 oct models are useless except for maybe BoF if everyone had 100 oct avaliable to them the whole time during BoB.
I've read things like "the planes were performing differently (better) when we encountered them again over Britain".
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Dec-24-2013, 14:32
Map will need to wait till TF 4.01 is finalized.
Not wanting to hijack, maybe we should open a new thread for your new mission Buzzsaw.
But was 100 oct always available or was it introduced at some point during the Battle of Britain and only to some squads?
I mean, the 87 oct models are useless except for maybe BoF if everyone had 100 oct avaliable to them the whole time during BoB.
I've read things like "the planes were performing differently (better) when we encountered them again over Britain".
Just about every frontline Squadron was 100oct during the BoB, and there were 100oct Hurricanes in France too, Ginger Laceys book for instance recounts where they landed at French airfields but could not refuel as the French did not have 100oct fuel!
Having said that, at present using the Boost cut-out on a Merlin is a self destruct button so there's no performance difference between the models as you cant use the extra boost anyway, to be fixed in 4.01
E1 vrs Hurri is a pretty good matchup. it out everything but firepower's a Hurri but as long as the Hurri pilot has some time on that flight model you can fight a reasonably even battle!
9./JG52_J-HAT
Dec-25-2013, 13:12
Thanks, Gromit! Googling it just brought up articles about how American fuel saved England...
Pirabee
Jan-10-2014, 19:40
NakedSquirrel,
I can't tell you how markedly better looking your system renders CLoD graphics than does mine.
I was watching your dogfight video and practically drooled at the remarkable rendering, color and contrast. Mine is too poor in comparison that I need not even attempt to describe it.
Could you kindly post your system specs in its entirety as I'm thinking I should duplicate it right down to the casing if necessary.
Cheers and happy hunting.
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