Kanalkampf

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

A semi-historic mission based on events in July 1940. The purpose of the mission is to explore a new part of the map. The aircraft set is roughly historic with some additions for gameplay. The Br.20 is also available to red to supplement their medium bomber force. Air spawns are available mid channel for Bf 109 & Ju 87 due to the distances involved in crossing from France. Bases are still available in Normandy for those who wish to make the full real crossing. Blue AI bombers will spawn periodically to attack red targets in order to advance the mission. Mission length is 4 hours. Mission features radar for red to detect large formations through the Mission menu (Tab-4). You'll want to connect to the Isle of Wight station before requesting a report. Special thanks to ATAG_Bliss for scripting/hosting, 5./JG27 Vogler for support, & FG_Kodiak/No.401 Wolverine for radar.

Blue briefing

July 1940 - Kanalkampf v1.4

I hope you all enjoyed your leave in France but it’s time to get back to work. High command has finally given the green light to begin the air war with England. Our mission is to destroy the RAF in preparation for an invasion, codenamed Unternehmen Seelöwe. We will begin by targeting Britain’s lifeline, her merchant shipping and harbors. This will force their fighters to come up where our Bf 109’s will have no problem shooting them down in great numbers. Based on the victory claims from yesterdays fighting over Dover this whole affair should take a week or two at most once our main offensive is launched. One word of precaution, if you are hit the Channel is no place for an extended swim this time of year. Try to ditch near one of the Rettungsbojen (sea rescue buoys) and the Seenotdienst (sea rescue service) will pick you up. The Rettungsbojens in our sector are located in AE13, AJ14, & AN14. Minensuchboots & He 115's are patrolling these sectors for downed pilots.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Rettungsbojen_zps23f6596b.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Rettungsbojen_zps23f6596b.jpg.html)

Bf 109 / Bf 110 Orders

- It is our good luck that a British convoy is sailing through our sector. The convoy was spotted in AM17 heading South-West towards the Isle of Wight. Establish air superiority over this convoy and clear a path for our bombers.

- Provide close escort for our bomber forces. Ju 87's from StG 2 will be launching raids on the convoy. Ground controllers will keep you informed as to when to move to the rendezvous areas.

- He 111's of I./KG55 will be launching a large raid on Portsmouth harbor. Bf 110's are preferred for long range escort while Bf 109's will be near the limit of their range. Keep an eye on your fuel gauge.

Ju 87 / Ju 88 / He 111 Orders

- A merchant convoy has been spotted by our reconnaissance flights in AM17 moving towards the Isle of Wight. Destroy these ships and starve England into submission.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Convoy_zps01ad5e04.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Convoy_zps01ad5e04.jpg.html)

- Portsmouth harbor (AG19.6) is a vital naval port to the British. Destroy any shipping, warehouses, and machinery located in the harbor.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Portsmouth_zps41279267.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Portsmouth_zps41279267.jpg.html)

- RAF Tangmere (AJ20.2) is a crucial air base for the British in this sector. Bomb the runways to knock it out of action. (8,000 kg required)

- The British have setup a series of radio antennas along their coastline which we believe are used for aircraft detection. One of these sites is located at RAF Ventnor (AG17.1) on the Isle of Wight. We want to test the effectiveness of our bombings on the towers to see if they can easily be brought down. Destroy the towers and the C&C (command and control) buildings at the base of the towers.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_VentnorCH_zpsc66a8ea6.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/VentnorCH_zpsc66a8ea6.jpg.html)

Red briefing

July 1940 - Kanalkampf v1.4

Since the fall of France things have been relatively quiet. However, in the last 24 hours things have begun to heat up. Yesterday, Luftwaffe reconnaissance aircraft were out over the Channel searching for merchant convoys. Around mid-day a group of Do 17’s attacked a convoy, codenamed “Bread”, which was passing through the Straits of Dover resulting in the loss of one ship. Today another merchant convoy is passing through our sector and we have been tasked with protecting it all costs. Make sure your survival gear is packed, the Channel waters can kill in minutes even at this time of year. If your aircraft is damaged, return to base immediately. Try to ditch near the convoy if you can’t make it back. The Germans have setup several sea rescue buoys in the Channel that hold emergency equipment. We’ve taken to calling them “Lobster Pots”. As a last resort you can search out one of these floats. So far we’ve spotted these buoys in AE13, AJ14, & AN14. As some of you might know the RAF has no organized search & rescue service.

Fighter Command Orders

- Establish air superiority over the merchant convoy sailing from AM17 towards the Isle of Wight. You are to fly CAP (combat air patrol) over the convoy and protect it from attack.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Convoy_zps01ad5e04.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Convoy_zps01ad5e04.jpg.html)

- Intercept enemy air raids. We expect waves of Jerry bombers & dive bombers to launch attacks in our sector. Ground controllers will vector you to any raids that appear. Use Tab-4 to check for incoming raids.

- Keep an eye out for any lone reconnaissance aircraft that might be shadowing the convoy or patrolling our coastline. Even the Luftwaffe's sea rescue patrols are fair game.

Bomber Command Orders

We've switched to mainly night operations but volunteer crews are still carrying out day-light attacks.

- While our friends in Fighter Command fight the Luftwaffe in the air, we've been tasked with destroying them on the ground. We've identified Bf 109 bases at Querqueville (AB07.6), Crepon (AK03.4), & Le Havre (AO05.9). Bomb the runways from altitude to disrupt their operations.

- The Germans have setup their own radar station outside of Fecamp (AQ08.6). We believe they are using this site to detect our shipping convoys moving through the Channel. As long as the site is operational our convoys can be detected in any weather, day or night. Destroy the radio tower and any buildings within the compound.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Fecamp_zps699c9b0c.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Fecamp_zps699c9b0c.jpg.html)

[EG14_Marcast]

This one I like it a lot! About british Br20 I've already told my perplexity. Maybe a little better here beacuse it can be used mostly for high level bombing....
What I disagree about is the air spawn. I don't like the idea of air spawning and it seems to me a little unfair to the reds, just my opinion. But with ground take off this is great!

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Thanks again, Hans Gruber!

[Kling]

Great with new missions and mission designers!!

If you have problems, Im sure you can ask Salmo and Reddog for tips! They are the gurus when it comes to mission codes etc etc! ;)
Saying that, I do agree that for fighters, I would prefer no airspawn!
I love the idea about seenotrettungsdienst!! ;)

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Again thanks :)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Great with new missions and mission designers!!

If you have problems, Im sure you can ask Salmo and Reddog for tips! They are the gurus when it comes to mission codes etc etc! ;)
Saying that, I do agree that for fighters, I would prefer no airspawn!
I love the idea about seenotrettungsdienst!! ;)

I would rank Hans Gruber as a guru as well. His Dunkirk mission last year was epic. :thumbsup:

[Roblex]

Is this the same mission SoW used to run? It seems very similar apart from the BR20s.

[Kling]

I would rank Hans Gruber as a guru as well. His Dunkirk mission last year was epic. :thumbsup:

Sorry!! I didnt know!!! :) Well now i do hehe!

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

I wish the air spawn wasn't necessary but some people simply don't have time to fly 20-25 minutes from Normandy to the battle area. Last thing I want is for any of the missions to be server killers. The air spawn makes the distance a little more manageable for the average joe. The purists still have the option of spawning on the ground. The 109 jabo variants are not on this mission so it should not provide an advantage to blue.

The Br.20 is what it is. I don't expect it to be used much, but it's there if needed. If TF should ever add a flyable Wellington its only a mouse click to swap out planes.

I am doing final testing on all three missions and will submit them to ATAG within a day or two max.

[ATAG_Naz]

Really looking forward to flying this..thanks for your hard work mate :thumbsup:

For what its worth, I don't mind the air starts given they are an option one can chose to use or ignore. I am one of those who oftentimes can only spare a quick hour or so online so it is a nice option to have given the circumstances of the mission. I suspect I would still spawn at an airfield 95% of the time, but its good to have that option when time is tight.

:salute:

[EG14_Marcast]

I wish the air spawn wasn't necessary but some people simply don't have time to fly 20-25 minutes from Normandy to the battle area. Last thing I want is for any of the missions to be server killers. The air spawn makes the distance a little more manageable for the average joe. The purists still have the option of spawning on the ground. The 109 jabo variants are not on this mission so it should not provide an advantage to blue.

The Br.20 is what it is. I don't expect it to be used much, but it's there if needed. If TF should ever add a flyable Wellington its only a mouse click to swap out planes.


I see your points. Regarding the destruction of the airfields, will be enough to hit the green getting a damage report as in Homeplate? From the briefings it seems that at least in Hell's Corner we'll have to hit the buildings instead...

[SoW Reddog]

Sorry!! I didnt know!!! :) Well now i do hehe!

And I sure as hell wouldn't rate me as one!

[EG14_Marcast]

Something that just came in my mind: do air spawn aircrafts have less fuel than the others? Being autonomy a critical factor for fighters, they would have an advantage otherwise.
Please don't take me as an hypercritical, Gruber....it's a long time that I've been waiting for a map like this :)

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Something that just came in my mind: do air spawn aircrafts have less fuel than the others? Being autonomy a critical factor for fighters, they would have an advantage otherwise.
Please don't take me as an hypercritical, Gruber....it's a long time that I've been waiting for a map like this :)

No worries. Limiting fuel for air spawns would require scripting beyond my capabilities.

[ATAG_Bliss]

This mission is now in the rotation :thumbsup:

[EG14_Marcast]

I just played it for the first time. I made a mission on a Ju88 from Caen to Portsmouth and back on one engine for a belly landing at Theville. Great map!

[ATAG_Freya]

Yeah very good map! Lots of fun, despite being a large battle area there was plenty of action. Was flying red, but I could see that the blue side were using good tactics, and bringing very good escorts with both human and AI formations, and also some fighter sweeps in between.

Drock attacking ships (and doing so very effectively!)
6297
(shortly after this Stormbat kicked my @$$)

Large raid, love the flak, this pic doesn't do it justice!
6298

Looking forward to more time on this map!
Cheers!

[AKA_Recon]

just came to say... FANTASTIC mission.

I haven't had this much fun in a mission in CloD... ever.

Different part of the map, new and fresh, tons of action defending targets... and the Germans tonight did a heck of job bombarding the targets! First we had stukas come through then a large formations of vicious He111 bomber group with human 109 escorts led to one of the best fights I've had in this sim. Finished it all off defending the ships near the Island and it was intense

Thanks - and glad to see the new missions (I know I was critical of some others) - this one hits it spot on!

2 :thumbsup: up !

[AKA_Recon]

good screenshots :thumbsup: - ATAG_Freya that was a heck of a battle

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Great feedback or this mission.

I'm surprised that so many people have not flow this before though. The mission had previously been live on other server(s) for many months.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Great to see it's fun. It was already too late for me probably when this one started. I flew on teh Dunkirt map only.

Maye we could remove the older maps from the rotation every once in a while to make the new ones appear more often? And than just switch the "map set" again, so it is always relatively fresh.

[AKA_Sully]

Nice job! Great mission..... lot's of fun :thumbsup:

[EG14_Marcast]

Great to see it's fun. It was already too late for me probably when this one started. I flew on teh Dunkirt map only.

Maye we could remove the older maps from the rotation every once in a while to make the new ones appear more often? And than just switch the "map set" again, so it is always relatively fresh.

+1.....At the moment I'd keep the three new maps by Gruber with London Raids and Homeplate. Just my preferences, I'll keep on playing all maps anyway

[AKA_Blasto]

S!~
Last night the AKA Wardogs put up 7 pilots- and flew this map together. Very fun- good variety- and a refreshing change of scenery.
Most Cliffs regulars wil fly any map and have fun- but this gives everyone something that hasnt been flown 150x. At one point someone on our comms- as we 7 were coming in to The Isle of Wight together at 18-20kft- started humming the theme song/ tune from the late 60's Mission Impossible tv show! lol We could just feel the bombers coming- the fighters watching us from somewhere- and we ourselves huntingthe southern Channel with re-newed aggression and focus. Excellent. Thanks ATAG for continuing to be the premier Cliffs server to have a great time in...good show.

S!~ AKA_Blasto Salute from The AKA Wardogs! :shoot:

[AKA_Scorp]

Terrific mission, constant action had loads of fun.

Bomber defensive gunners are good and with the large formations it makes it vital that they are attacked by a number of fighters.

Is it possible to add a few AI escorts and defensive fighters as this mission is tough if there are only a few human pilots.

[EG14_Marcast]

Last night I made again a raid on Portsmouth, this time dropping from 5500 m. . I didn’t understand how the target can be destroyed….there are a lot of buildings in the harbor area. Do we have to destroy them all? Or is it a saturation target alike the airfields in Homeplate?

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Last night I made again a raid on Portsmouth, this time dropping from 5500 m. . I didn’t understand how the target can be destroyed….there are a lot of buildings in the harbor area. Do we have to destroy them all? Or is it a saturation target alike the airfields in Homeplate?

Yeah, this target could use some clarification. There are a lot of warehouses, machinery, and ships in the area; eliminating them all would be nearly impossible even without opposition.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Hopefully this will help. The area in orange is the most important, the red areas are also worth a look at.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Portsmouth_zps84f2acb3.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Portsmouth_zps84f2acb3.jpg.html)

At a certain point in the mission a large group of AI will come over and bomb the target. The other evening there were 2? ATAG guys bombing in Ju 88's and looked like they did a fair amount of damage. The target was finished by the AI not long after. There were several AKA guys on at the time who can confirm that it was destroyed. It's not an easy target but it's not meant to be.

[III./ZG76_Keller]

Excellent, that sums it up nicely!

[EG14_Marcast]

Hopefully this will help. The area in orange is the most important, the red areas are also worth a look at.


Really helpful :thumbsup:. Is it the same at Cherbourg? I've not yet flown as Red, but I'm going to make it soon. It's just a pity that in the last days this map came very late at night in Europe, I hope in a change of the rotation order.

[Vlerkies]

Flew this for the first time yesterday.
If you are an Axis bomber this is your mission for sure.

I was flying an E1 and took the airspawn point at 80% fuel and headed north, turning right up the English cost towards Portsmouth/Isle of White.
Tangled with a number of enemy fighters and chased one down to the airfield on the island and got my one wing badly damaged by flak (gaping holes no aileron or flap), turned and headed for France, 25 minutes later landed. (not to fond of just bailing out of a flyable aircraft)

Next sortie the same plan. This time we intercepted a formation of Stuka's en route to the Portsmouth Harbor.
We escorted them in, fending of one or 2 lone British fighters, then they dived down and did some damaged.
Continued to provide cover and tangled with a few fighters in the process.

Not entirely sure of the time on target (maybe 20 minutes, but it went really quickly) but when I looked again my fuel was getting low, so I set course for France, this time in a good E1 with only a few minor bullet holes.

When I had hit the coast of the Isle of White on the French side I had 50L of fuel left and was at 1000m.
I ran 1.2ata at 2200rpm for a short while, climbing slowly just to get out over the channel to relative safety.

It soon became evident that 50L was perhaps not going to cut the mustard and I might have to swim just a bit and I had left my baggies at home.
I trimmed up, throttle back to 1 ata at 2000rpm and managed to maintain 350-400kph in a very gentle climb, stealing some altitude along the way (slowly).
Seeing the fuel dropping further and the French coast still barely visible, I eventually had the E1 practically idling at 0.9 ATA/2000rpm and in level flight she held speed at around 350kph.

Eventually the fuel gauge registered 0%, flying on fumes and still had about 3 minutes till I went feet dry. I had clawed 3000m on the trip and was treating every meter above terra firma like gold.

I was heading for the Western most AFB (Cherbourgh?) and As I was about to go feet dry the spluttering started and then the engine stopped.
Feathered the prop, and put the nose into a shallow dive to glide in.
Made it with some altitude to spare which allowed me to get my flaps and gear set up nicely for a steep decent to make sure I made the runway, for a perfect landing.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

I don't see any advantage to the air spawns(other than time saving).
We used them yesterday and promptly found some crafty Reds camping at the spawn points ready to vulch the newborns trying to get their rads and pitch set up.
Then next time we used ground starts and flew the extra distance. :-P

[Vlerkies]

I don't see any advantage to the air spawns(other than time saving).
We used them yesterday and promptly found some crafty Reds camping at the spawn points ready to vulch the newborns trying to get their rads and pitch set up.
Then next time we used ground starts and flew the extra distance. :-P

Indeed, but with a 20-25 minute channel crossing each way for a blue fighter, then maybe the same (or less) over the target area, that eats away rapidly into valuable 'virtual sim' time. Its already a stretch getting home and I ain't ditching no plane unless I really have to.

Its an epic map :thumbsup: , a real work of art actually, if you have 4 hours time to fly it. So at least the mission builder acknowledges this and offers some compromise in a big map (airstart). Thank you for that. :thumbsup:

Maybe just stick some big ass warships (are there any in Clod?) in the area with super incredible flak to keep the opportunistic Brits away from the soft spots. :grrr:

I mean, on the last page there were questions about limiting the fuel at air restarts, or possibilities thereof, to negate a potential 'advantage' to Blue, lol! A page later we talk about Red vulching air respawns.
Although I dislike airspawns, I am grateful for them on this map, cause if I had to logon to fly and see this map and know I had just time enough for maybe 1 or 2 sorties, with 2 hours flying time for both to just get from the airfield to the target area and back, the 'blip' on my fun radar would disappear completely.


:)

[Vlerkies]

Just flew it again now, 32 red 19 blue, not hard to understand why. Blip flew off the fun radar completely, sorry to say.

[SoW Reddog]

And yet currently there's more blues than reds, and we're having to defend like mad in the last few minutes.

Blues would stand more chance if they organised themselves and stopped lone wolfing in a 109 looking for easy kills.

[Vlerkies]

I just need to learn to fly/operate a Luftwaffe bomber, try an get your Spit/Hurri ratio right, that will be sporting of you ;;)

edit: and don't mind me, just my little frustration, its all good. and I appreciate everyones efforts that keep this sim ticking!

[Gromit]

This map, now I know where I am going is one of my favourites, we had a right old brawl with 109's, Stukas and even He111's over the East side of the Isle of white the other night, great fun!

[9./JG52_Meyer]

One of the best maps out there, if you dont like it dont fly it simple.

[DUI]

Is it possible to account for "unsinkable ships"? Meaning to achieve the convoy target by only sinking 15 out of the 17 ships?

[trademe900]

Is it possible to account for "unsinkable ships"? Meaning to achieve the convoy target by only sinking 15 out of the 17 ships?

This needs to be looked at for sure. Something is bugged here and this is the third time for me where all boats possible have been sunk (19 of 20, including our own minensuchboots and the boats in the port!) and the map is stuck, leading to everyone circling around very bored trying to find 'that last boat' to sink.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Is it possible to account for "unsinkable ships"? Meaning to achieve the convoy target by only sinking 15 out of the 17 ships?

Yes, it's a simple fix.


This needs to be looked at for sure. Something is bugged here and this is the third time for me where all boats possible have been sunk (19 of 20, including our own minensuchboots and the boats in the port!) and the map is stuck, leading to everyone circling around very bored trying to find 'that last boat' to sink.

Speak for yourself. Lots of us fighting over the IoW having a great time.

[LuseKofte]

This mission is good. I like it but do agree on getting more boats than objective. Some of them do not sink properly

[trademe900]

Speak for yourself. Lots of us fighting over the IoW having a great time.

Did I say the mission wasn't fun? You need to realize that not all of us are in the same time zone and it is very important to be able to complete the mission when there are low numbers on the server. It is a bug and needs to be fixed- simple as that. You can speak for yourself if you think it is fine to have an uncompletable mission.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

v1.1 released to ATAG.

Chanelog:
- New objective for blue, RAF Tangmere airfield. 10,000 kg of bombs to destroy.
- Only 15 of 20 ships are required to be destroyed by blue in addition to other objectives.
- Improved despawn script.
- Reduced skill of He 111 gunners to veteran.

[ATAG_Septic]

v1.1 released to ATAG.

Chanelog:
- New objective for blue, RAF Tangmere airfield. 10,000 kg of bombs to destroy.
- Only 15 of 20 ships are required to be destroyed by blue in addition to other objectives.
- Improved despawn script.
- Reduced skill of He 111 gunners to veteran.

Brilliant, thanks old chap!!

Septic.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Nice, thanks again!

A question, though: have you thought about having Ju 88 airstart, too? I don't know about the others, but as you fly a long way for the targets and back, I end up only doing one full sortie to bomb any of the targets in the Ju 88. Normally it's the port. Then I usually take the Ju 87 and go for the ships or Radar Station. Now with two targets needing a larger bombload, maybe that could be done?

[LuseKofte]

Many thanks Gruber, Nice to have some more level bomb targets on it. I am very grateful

[Gromit]

Only change I would ask for is an airstart for the Blenheims as they are flying the whole distance at present which makes for very long sorties!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Only change I would ask for is an airstart for the Blenheims as they are flying the whole distance at present which makes for very long sorties!

Agreed. Equal approach for both sides would be nice.

(this is the problem with air-starts in general..... it becomes a bit of a slippery slope)

[LuseKofte]

Yes in Blue side it is only 109 and JU 87 that got airstart . I have to take the long way with my HE-111

But I need some distance to get altitude, it is what we get for realism, take time.
But I agree The Blenheim might have airstarts also

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Pretty disgusting act today on the server by a blue squad which led an organized effort to bomb their own targets and change the map. This squad put their own needs above everybody else who was playing on the server and enjoying themselves. It should come as no surprise when the few mission makers we have stop creating new content for the community when their efforts are treated this way. If you don't like the map, go to a different server, it's that simple. I have zero respect for this squad after what I saw today.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Pretty disgusting act today on the server by a blue squad which led an organized effort to bomb their own targets and change the map. This squad put their own needs above everybody else who was playing on the server and enjoying themselves. It should come as no surprise when the few mission makers we have stop creating new content for the community when their efforts are treated this way.

To be honest HG, I think you should name the squad.
1. Maybe then they'd have a chance to explain (was the mission bugged maybe, and un-winnable?)
2. If they have no justification, then at least future recruits will know what kind of unit they're getting in to


If you don't like the map, go to a different server, it's that simple.

Indeed. There's no need to ruin the fun of others.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Only change I would ask for is an airstart for the Blenheims as they are flying the whole distance at present which makes for very long sorties!

Never thought of that (I've played the map just so many times and always as blue bomber or fighter in general), but why not. I think the only concern is make sure the Blennies don't spawn too close to the blue fighter airspawns, as there wouldn't be too much friendly fighter cover avaliable.

[Gromit]

Pretty disgusting act today on the server by a blue squad which led an organized effort to bomb their own targets and change the map. This squad put their own needs above everybody else who was playing on the server and enjoying themselves. It should come as no surprise when the few mission makers we have stop creating new content for the community when their efforts are treated this way. If you don't like the map, go to a different server, it's that simple. I have zero respect for this squad after what I saw today.

Don't let the actions of a few morons dissuade you Hans, this map is a very well thought out and implemented mission, your updates are improving it and the vast majority of guys on TS I speak to love it, But there will always be malcontents!

On WoP server if you team killed you were disconnected, maybe a script could be implemented that would do something similar!

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

Don't let the actions of a few morons dissuade you Hans, this map is a very well thought out and implemented mission, your updates are improving it and the vast majority of guys on TS I speak to love it, But there will always be malcontents!

On WoP server if you team killed you were disconnected, maybe a script could be implemented that would do something similar!

Totally agree. I was flying this yesterday and kept seeing Blue bases destroyed and looked to see that ZERO red bombers were flying at that time. Then noticed an individual stating in chat, disrespecting the map and flying an 88 with some of his mates. It was obvious that these boneheads were bombing our own bases to turn the map over.
Again, I'll say it. If you don't like a map then don't fly it. Go on another server but do not ruin it for everyone else. That was total BS and unacceptable.

I happen to really enjoy that map. It's a proper mission that one has to actually fly and use tactics on to win it.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Pretty disgusting act today on the server by a blue squad which led an organized effort to bomb their own targets and change the map. This squad put their own needs above everybody else who was playing on the server and enjoying themselves. It should come as no surprise when the few mission makers we have stop creating new content for the community when their efforts are treated this way. If you don't like the map, go to a different server, it's that simple. I have zero respect for this squad after what I saw today.

That's pretty sad. Please PM me who this was.

:grrr:

[EG14_Werra]

As far as I got informed, the wrongdoer's are some ju88 pilots of our team.

I want to say that I dont like this beahviour and Im investigeting who it concretly was. We are flying seriously and this happening should be an exeption. In the name og 4./JG54 I say sorry. I dont know yet why the did this. I agree with the opinion "when dont like the mission, then go the an other server"

[ATAG_Snapper]

As far as I got informed, the wrongdoer's are some ju88 pilots of our team.

I want to say that I dont like this beahviour and Im investigeting who it concretly was. We are flying seriously and this happening should be an exeption. In the name og 4./JG54 I say sorry. I dont know yet why the did this. I agree with the opinion "when dont like the mission, then go the an other server"

Thanks very much for this, Werra. Please feel free to PM me at any time. We're not looking for scalps, just assurances that this won't happen again. Your initiative to resolve this is much appreciated.

Salute,

Snapper

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

too early to send those involved to the eastern front..

[trademe900]

Hey guys. This was me bombing the blue objectives that day I think. As far as name calling goes, I will take full responsibility for one of these organised attacks on our objectives but I would like to mention that I only came to know of this after I was called in by ATAG squad players and other regulars themselves to bomb the targets; in other words, the majority of the team all instigated the attack, given the situation at that time. Many times this map has come to a stale mate/time remaining situation with boat bugs (many, many pilots will attest to this), leaving the blue team with no options. I plead that it also needs to be understood that at that particular time, red players were happy we had taken out the targets as the map was just not playable with the player numbers/world time. For the record, I have been involved twice in total with these skirmishes.

I wish to apologize to the map maker Hans Gruber for adding to this negative trend when playing this very good map. In my experience this is one of the most immersive and fun maps that has given rise to countless mad stuka and ju88 sorties I lead myself that many I know here will remember! I really hope I can reconcile with those I may have offended- there aren't that many of us together in this sim world. Once again, sorry guys.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Hey guys. This was me bombing the blue objectives that day I think. As far as name calling goes, I will take full responsibility for one of these organised attacks on our objectives but I would like to mention that I only came to know of this after I was called in by ATAG squad players and other regulars themselves to bomb the targets; in other words, the majority was absolutely behind this decision, given the situation at that time. Many times this map has come to a stale mate/time remaining situation with boat bugs (many, many pilots will attest to this), leaving the blue team with no options. I plead that it also needs to be understood that at that particular time, red players were very happy we had taken out the targets as the map was just not playable with the player numbers/time zone. For the record, I have been involved twice in total with these skirmishes.

I wish to apologize to the map maker Hans Gruber for adding to this negative trend when playing this very good map. In my experience this is one of the most immersive and fun maps that has given rise to countless mad stuka and ju88 sorties that many I know of here will remember! I really hope I can reconcile with those I may have offended- there aren't that many of us together in this sim world. Once again, sorry guys.

I accept your apology but I believe it's those whose who were on the server at the time who deserve the apology. Also, your rational is a little misguided.

1.) There were about 80 players on the server at the time ~1500 EST. I don't understand how that qualifies as "the map was just not playable with the player numbers/time zone".
2.) The map was updated around January 19 to v1.1 which fixed the bug with the ships. Only 15 of 20 ships need to be destroyed now. That allows for up to 5 ships possibly becoming bugged, it's rare that it happens to even 1 or 2. Since this update I can pretty much guarantee the ships are no longer a problem.
3.) The update also added an additional target, the airfield at Tangmere. Maybe you were unaware there was another target that needed to be bombed. It's ironic that had the blue bombers involved put their efforts towards the last remaining target at Tangmere you would have won the map for blue.

I would like to thank Werra and his 4./JG54 for standing tall on this matter and hope we can put this behind us and move forward and not see a repeat on this or any mission.

[SoW Reddog]

I wasn't there, so I don't know the ins and outs of who felt what, but I would say that this is further weight to support my voting script being added to maps to be honest. If people want to skip the map, then they could vote. This would be shown and others who felt the same way could follow suit. If enough wanted to skip, then it could be so, if not, democracy speaks and all parties can choose whether they stay in the server or go elsewhere for a bit.

I'll ask a question about this map. Have the Reds ever WON it? By which I mean destroyed the targets and not just survived the mission duration? I know I couldn't get near the targets last night but that's probably down to my navigation and lack of experience in a Blennie.

[EG14_Marcast]

I'll ask a question about this map. Have the Reds ever WON it? By which I mean destroyed the targets and not just survived the mission duration? I know I couldn't get near the targets last night but that's probably down to my navigation and lack of experience in a Blennie.

I don't know for this one, but I can say that if maps have similar targets for both sides, it's normally much harder for Reds to win. This depends of course on the lower loadout of the Blenheim; for example once in Fall Red we made two raids in two Blennies and we couldn't destroy Barly, while on a single Ju88 I can knock out an airfield if I don't find opposition. I fear there's nothing to do until/if there will be a flyable Wellington.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

red never fly more than a handful of blenheims, they need more pilots to convert. blues are at a point where there are more bomber than fighters sometimes

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

I'll ask a question about this map. Have the Reds ever WON it? By which I mean destroyed the targets and not just survived the mission duration? I know I couldn't get near the targets last night but that's probably down to my navigation and lack of experience in a Blennie.

Has red ever tried to win it? Outside of 1 or 2 guys flying Blenheims or a Br.20 I have never seen a concentrated effort. Half the time the Br.20's are shot down by their own fighters who don't think to look at markings. Yesterday, JG4 threw a large formation of Ju 88's at Tangmere with a large fighter escort but an unfortunate server time out spoiled it. I have never seen an effort like that mounted by red.

Anyway, the design of the mission was not to make a perfectly balanced bombing scenario. Reds primary objective is to protect their convoy and targets and they have been given RDF to assist with that. The blue targets are there simply for red bomber pilots to have something to do. If anything it would be appropriate to say red wins the map if time expires and blue has not destroyed their assigned targets.

[Gromit]

A quite considerable number of red guys have tried bombing but it's so easy to shoot a blenny down they get disillusioned and go back to fighters, that contrasts with the difficulty in bringing down an 88 or 111, it's almost impossible to prevent them dropping their bombs, you often put them down after or they go down on the way home but actually stopping them is ridiculously hard at present!

Either way I really enjoy this map!

[SoW Reddog]

Has red ever tried to win it? Outside of 1 or 2 guys flying Blenheims or a Br.20 I have never seen a concentrated effort. Half the time the Br.20's are shot down by their own fighters who don't think to look at markings. Yesterday, JG4 threw a large formation of Ju 88's at Tangmere with a large fighter escort but an unfortunate server time out spoiled it. I have never seen an effort like that mounted by red.

Anyway, the design of the mission was not to make a perfectly balanced bombing scenario. Reds primary objective is to protect their convoy and targets and they have been given RDF to assist with that. The blue targets are there simply for red bomber pilots to have something to do. If anything it would be appropriate to say red wins the map if time expires and blue has not destroyed their assigned targets.

Dunno Gruber. I suspect not, for the following reasons (excluding the game inflicted ones such as poor bombload for blennie, only the blennie etc):
1) Red bomber bases are next to/very close to one of the Blue targets, meaning Red bombers are spotted nice and quickly by marauding/escorting 109's and end up being a free lunch.
2) Br20 is not a Red plane. You might have added it to try and level things out, but imagine what would happen if you Blues started flying Blennies or had Wellington's? "Blue on Blue" is easy enough to understand, especially given proximity in point 1.
3) Blues get airspawns half way across. Red's don't.
4) All Red's targets are pretty much in one place, helpfully on the flightpath of Blue fighters to the main combat zone. Blue targets are spread about the map.

And that's without the "historical" argument. While I appreciate the fact you've given Red bomber pilots something to do, it is as you say basically a Blue win and map changes early, or Reds don't lose and timeout situation similar to my London Raids mission. I have no problem with this, but it needs to be recognised that it's not an equal opportunity to move the map on which others are, such as OP Homeplate or indeed your Fall Rot map for example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go but I can sympathise with the situation that led to this discussion. We have the planeset and map we have.

Oh and I saw the server stutter (caused by the JG4 guys?). Would have been nice to see what happened with that raid! No doubt they'd have got their bombs away as nothing can stop a Ju88 in a dive.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

1) Red bomber bases are next to/very close to one of the Blue targets, meaning Red bombers are spotted nice and quickly by marauding/escorting 109's and end up being a free lunch.
Bomber bases at Ford and Shoreham. Shoreham is well away from the action, can't imagine anybody bothering you there, however I can look into adding an additional spawn to the NW.

2) Br20 is not a Red plane. You might have added it to try and level things out, but imagine what would happen if you Blues started flying Blennies or had Wellington's? "Blue on Blue" is easy enough to understand, especially given proximity in point 1.
This is outside of my control. Maybe it is possible for TF to add an RAF skin for the Br20 when it is used by red army. Br20 pilots should probably announce their intentions in friendly chat.

3) Blues get airspawns half way across. Red's don't.
That's not entirely fair. Blues have a Stuka airspawn. All other bombers (He 111 & Ju 88) are flying the full trip from Caen. To drop 10,000 kg of bombs on Tangmere using Stukas from the airspawn 100km away is not really a winning strategy. The Stuka is 2 bomb drops at most and it's open for debate whether larger bombs actually result in more destruction. Historically, Stukas were the main a/c used in this phase of the battle. If they didn't have an airspawn I doubt you would ever see one on this mission.

4) All Red's targets are pretty much in one place, helpfully on the flightpath of Blue fighters to the main combat zone. Blue targets are spread about the map.
Again, not really a fair summary of the true situation. All blues are flying North to the combat zone, are the fighters and bombers to travel in direct directions? Red fighters/bombers share the same heading as well. As stated in the OP the design was to simulate typical BoB action during the Kanalkampf phase of the battle. The targets during that time were convoys, harbors, coastal airfields, & RDF stations. I can't really control the geographic locations of the targets. The southern tip of the Isle of Wight, Portsmouth, and Tangmere are not exactly right next to each other, certainly not to a bomber pilot who can not outrun any of his opponents. Anyway, does that not make it harder for blue bombers if the red targets are concentrated? It's easier for red to concentrate their fighters around the targets. It is my experience that anybody flying between those points is sure to run into a Spitfire or Hurricane. Conversely, the blue targets are spread out, away from blue bases. With the exception of the target in Cherbourg harbor there isn't a blue spawn anywhere close to the targets so red bomber pilots should have a relatively easy time vs light AAA over the targets. Compare to Portsmouth and Tangmere which have quite heavy concentrations of AAA.

I think if you tried this mission flying blue you would have a different opinion. It's not a walk in the park for blue at all.

[Attila]

I wasn't there, so I don't know the ins and outs of who felt what, but I would say that this is further weight to support my voting script being added to maps to be honest. If people want to skip the map, then they could vote. This would be shown and others who felt the same way could follow suit. If enough wanted to skip, then it could be so, if not, democracy speaks and all parties can choose whether they stay in the server or go elsewhere for a bit.


A poll would be nice! I think this map would be skipped, most of the blue pilots that I know don't likes the scenario. When this map is online the server isn't half that full as with other maps (it's just my opinion and feeling, I don't know if it's the real truth!)

@Gruber: sorry it's nothing against you, just my opinion! If you build this map you have my respect, because I'm sure it is a lot of hard work to create such a map!

PS: I know my english is terrible!:doh:

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

A poll would be nice! I think this map would be skipped, most of the blue pilots that I know don't likes the scenario. When this map is online the server isn't half that full as with other maps (it's just my opinion and feeling, I don't know if it's the real truth!)

@Gruber: sorry it's nothing against you, just my opinion! If you build this map you have my respect, because I'm sure it is a lot of hard work to create such a map!

PS: I know my english is terrible!:doh:

Funny, most of the blue pilots I fly with it like it just fine, one even says it's their favorite. I don't notice any discernible difference in player numbers when this map is on, I've seen the server at full capacity several times when it is, like yesterday for example.

Maybe you could actually articulate what it is you don't like? If it's the distances involved I think if you actually examined it there is not much difference between crossing the Channel at Calais and on this map if using the airspawns. It takes 12 minutes for 9./JG52 to go from Querqueville to the Isle of Wight in 109's flying at 1.1 ata and climbing to 6km. I really don't see the issue when there are other maps which has blue fly to London which is about the same.

If the community were to genuinely want it removed than by all means go for it but it's laughable how everybody wants something new until they get it.

[rollingstoned]

I accept your apology but I believe it's those whose who were on the server at the time who deserve the apology. Also, your rational is a little misguided.

1.) There were about 80 players on the server at the time ~1500 EST. I don't understand how that qualifies as "the map was just not playable with the player numbers/time zone".
2.) The map was updated around January 19 to v1.1 which fixed the bug with the ships. Only 15 of 20 ships need to be destroyed now. That allows for up to 5 ships possibly becoming bugged, it's rare that it happens to even 1 or 2. Since this update I can pretty much guarantee the ships are no longer a problem.
3.) The update also added an additional target, the airfield at Tangmere. Maybe you were unaware there was another target that needed to be bombed. It's ironic that had the blue bombers involved put their efforts towards the last remaining target at Tangmere you would have won the map for blue.

I would like to thank Werra and his 4./JG54 for standing tall on this matter and hope we can put this behind us and move forward and not see a repeat on this or any mission.


Hi Hans, im also JG54 and i wanted to make sure you understand that none of us would ever try to force roll the map with 80 people on it. To be honest we love your map! jg54 coined the phrase 'stuka madness' after many o' nights of 10 player+ stuka raids on your map. Ive seen this map rolled on purpose twice when the amount of players combined on both sides was less than 15 and we asked the few folks on the server if they minded if we rolled it. The only reason this map has ever been rolled this way is because there were WAY too few people on to make the map viable. This is an excellent map but with 15 people or less its very very very difficult because fighters cant find targets to kill and bombers must commit 1hr+ for a ju88 target. Hans i can understand why this would piss you off but please know that we love your map and respect all of the map makers.. we just tried to cut some corners on a slow night not because of the map but because of the number of players on we simply wanted to roll onto a smaller map to accommodate an 'off hours' amount of people. Either way, sorry for the mix up, it wont happen again.

-jg54-RS

[9./JG52 Lopp]

To all the Missiom/Script Makers my hat is off to you guys. You spend hours trying to fresh'n up the same old thing with new maps for what.
This Forum is full of post about historically correct missions and flight models and how people are sick of the vulching over Hawkinge and so on.
Then a mission on a different part of the map is introduced and the world is suddenly ending. I also realize that a lot of the haters are guys
who have nothing to offer the community. For someone to type "shit mission" in chat blows my mind. Go fly WarThunder and enjoy the instant action.

If a poll is conducted it should be for all maps run on the server not just one.

I post very little on forums but knowing the time guys put into making these missions I couldn't keep quiet.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Just to keep things in perspective: since the Netstats just turned over a few days ago, we've had close to 1,000 different players flying online the ATAG Server. That number will grow to approx 2,400 different players by month's end. A good percentage have flown Kanalkampf, quietly enjoyed it, and haven't made any comment one way or another.

All constructive input is appreciated if it helps make great missions even greater. Hopefully even negative comments can provide useful suggestions, but should not be taken as a barometer of the many who log in, play, log out.......and keep coming back for more. I'm one of 'em, BTW. Love this mission! :thumbsup:

:)

[trademe900]

We had a very fun time on the map today. Evening europe time with peak player numbers. 4x Ju88 with escorts from ATAG, LG1 and heaps of guys, raiding the port from 6k. Intercepted by many RAF fighters... lively radio chatter and very good flying from the fighter escorts and 110s who remained with the bombers despite RAF intercepts. After we destroyed the port the raf managed to break through and damage our bomber fliegen but fortunately all 4 airframes returned safely for a landing together in France.

[SoW Reddog]

Gruber, Just like to make it clear, I love the fact this map isn't hell's corner and am working on a map that has this area and further inland as well. I expect shit loads of complaints about that one too. :)

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

2400...thats amazing for a game that was doa, speaks to the work of, ATAG, TF and map makers.

[Attila]

I fly the map too, but I prefer maps like Dunkirqe, Dieppe, or the ordinary Manston-Littlestone-Folkstone maps. I like it to fly over the landscape of France or England. Flying over open water isn't that funny in my opinion (all in grey and blue). In this map the main fights are over the ships.
Also the fact of airstarting I don't like so much.
All in all it's more a kind of "feeling" then an objective reason!
:salute:

[Bear Pilot]

Gruber, Just like to make it clear, I love the fact this map isn't hell's corner and am working on a map that has this area and further inland as well. I expect shit loads of complaints about that one too. :)

Well you won't get one from me. Besides being in the (virtual) air and attacking enemy planes, landing back at my home field is the most rewarding feeling I get from this game. I love going on long frei jagds or escort missions with a wingman, sticking around of enemy territory until my MG's are near empty and/or I'm at bingo fuel. I love having to throttle back and conserve fuel on the way over for combat. Instant action/low furballs are fun and interesting once in a blue moon, as they happened in the war. But I like patrolling high in the skies and serving a purpose even if it's just air superiority until I'm forced to leave. Touching down knowing I made it back after an hour and a half in the air is oh so satisfying.

:salute: mission makers

We wouldn't be here without you

[EG14_Marcast]

Funny, most of the blue pilots I fly with it like it just fine......

And I am one of them :thumbsup:

[9./JG52_Meyer]

And i am the one that Gruber says is my fav map. This map tests us LW pilots to the max , its all about the long haul to the enemy coast and engine management has to be perfect over England especially in combat. A blown rad or engine at this distance is end of story . As Lopp says people want realism and then moan about flying over water . Is that not what the Battle of Britain is about?. The short hops across the channel in the other maps are ok as that also is true to realism but this map is still my fav . Proper flight times and scuffling over the IOW makes a nice change. Well done Gruber its a great map

[JG4_Widukind]

Mayby it ia a problem,thats the Map running every Nigth?
so arround 19-22?Thats the main playing time.And poeple are tired to play this Map every Day?
I think thats the reason for all this Posts.

[trademe900]

Today blue destroyed their own bases to complete the map again. We managed to bomb the portmouth harbour just in time luckily though.

[ATAG_Colander]

Today blue destroyed their own bases to complete the map again. We managed to bomb the portmouth harbour just in time luckily though.

Do you know who did this?

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Mayby it ia a problem,thats the Map running every Nigth?
so arround 19-22?Thats the main playing time.And poeple are tired to play this Map every Day?
I think thats the reason for all this Posts.

well, we clearly need MORE maps then!

If we had 15 or 20 maps it might take two or three days before you see the same map again.

[trademe900]

Do you know who did this?

No can't remember names and it happened pretty quickly, we were occupied with bombing the port and were not on the ATAG teamspeak at that time.

[Gromit]

So because they can't take off fly 2 mins and brawl they ruin a damn good mission for everyone else?

Why the hell don't they just sod off onto a dogfight server :grrr:

There has to be a script that will eject them for team killing or something!

[SoW Reddog]

So because they can't take off fly 2 mins and brawl they ruin a damn good mission for everyone else?

Why the hell don't they just sod off onto a dogfight server :grrr:

There has to be a script that will eject them for team killing or something!

Well my next mission will have a sin bin so yes, anything's possible!

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Well my next mission will have a sin bin so yes, anything's possible!

The "sin bin" haha :D

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

So because they can't take off fly 2 mins and brawl they ruin a damn good mission for everyone else?
Why the hell don't they just sod off onto a dogfight server :grrr:


My thoughts exactly.
Why fly on the server if you don't like the mission.

If the mission is actually broken, then let the mission designer know.

[EG14_Marcast]

30 mins to reach Portsmouth and Steam crashes :grrr:

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Take this as a warning!
if i am ever on this map and i find freindly bombers hitting our targets to "Roll" the map i WILL shoot them down. I dont care who you are or how big your rep is on clod or how big you think you are. I will shoot you down, I class it as teamkilling by you and will make you have it. Wtf is wrong with you people? if you dont like the map its simple dont fly it! dont by your arrogance ruin it for others. For the record i dont like the Littlestone winter map but i wouldnt dream of deliberatly trying to roll the map by hitting my own targets. Or having the childish attitude of typing
"Shit map" into the chat bar on the server. Get a grip of yourselves clowns. Someone has had the patience and taken great time in making this map and you twats come along and because you dont like it deceide amongst yourselves to bugger it up for the others.
That is my one and only rant over on this great forum and game but i am serious do not bomb friendly bases or targets or its 20 mm time for you and yours

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Take this as a warning!
if i am ever on this map and i find freindly bombers hitting our targets to "Roll" the map i WILL shoot them down. I dont care who you are or how big your rep is on clod or how big you think you are. I will shoot you down, I class it as teamkilling by you and will make you have it. Wtf is wrong with you people? if you dont like the map its simple dont fly it! dont by your arrogance ruin it for others. . Or having the childish attitude of typing
"Shit map" into the chat bar on the server. Get a grip of yourselves clowns. Someone has had the patience and taken great time in making this map and you twats come along and because you dont like it deceide amongst yourselves to bugger it up for the others.

Well said Meyer.
I would support you in this.
I would happily re-spawn blue and fly your wing on such an activity.



For the record i dont like the Littlestone winter map but i wouldnt dream of deliberatly trying to roll the map by hitting my own targets

I've joked about doing this on that map.. but never done it. The map needs fixing.. but issue like that should be raised through the map maker.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Take this as a warning!
if i am ever on this map and i find freindly bombers hitting our targets to "Roll" the map i WILL shoot them down. I dont care who you are or how big your rep is on clod or how big you think you are. I will shoot you down, I class it as teamkilling by you and will make you have it. Wtf is wrong with you people? if you dont like the map its simple dont fly it! dont by your arrogance ruin it for others. For the record i dont like the Littlestone winter map but i wouldnt dream of deliberatly trying to roll the map by hitting my own targets. Or having the childish attitude of typing
"Shit map" into the chat bar on the server. Get a grip of yourselves clowns. Someone has had the patience and taken great time in making this map and you twats come along and because you dont like it deceide amongst yourselves to bugger it up for the others.
That is my one and only rant over on this great forum and game but i am serious do not bomb friendly bases or targets or its 20 mm time for you and yours

I share your sentiments. :grrr:


But to everyone: we don't want a vigilante atmosphere developing where guys are shooting at guys on the same side. It would be MUCH preferable to simply note who is flying what bomber types at the time of the same-side bombing and let us know by PM. We will be glad to follow up discretely, take action as necessary, and privately let you know what was done. As disgusting as bombing same-side targets is we have lots of new players on that may never come back if they start seeing frontier justice taking over. Please don't resort to team killing yourselves. Get their tickets pulled permanently instead!

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Please don't resort to team killing yourselves. Get their tickets pulled permanently instead!

Fair call Snapper.

[SoW Reddog]

I'd be happy to share my sin bin code with Hans Gruber to help prevent/discourage this. Half an hour cooling off unable to spawn should make the point??

[ATAG_Snapper]

I'd be happy to share my sin bin code with Hans Gruber to help prevent/discourage this. Half an hour cooling off unable to spawn should make the point??

Excellent! :thumbsup:

:)

[EG14_Werra]

I also understand meyers anger but I think thats not a good way to solve this problem by shooting down suspecious pilots. Who will be the judge? Do we need a police? I also do not apreciate the bombing of own targets to roll the map because if all people would do this with the mission they dont like, we could not play any mission. I think leads to nothing when all give their personal meaning about this mission and about gruber. I honor your engagement as I told 100times before and as I will do 100 times more.

I like all maps on the ATAG-Server. But I like the diversification. Under certain circumstances, a mission change would be required. There are reason as mentioned before. What about the voting script? What is the problem with this idea? If there is the fear of to much power of the crowd you can increase the needed "yes" votes. Like it would be 90% required for a map change.

I wish we could find a good solution because I think it would be a great benefit for ATAG and for all us.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

What might also be helpful is if there as a way to randomly select the rotation of maps? I'm not sure if this "shuffle" is possible, but it would help some because some folks can only fly at certain times of the day and "generally" if that is the case, you end up flying the same couple of maps all the time.

Me, I like them all but just saying that changing up the rotation once in a while might help in this regard.

S!

[LuseKofte]

I never seen this happening, I fly mostly Heinkel so I need good time to fly when this map is on. When I do have the time I love it, fight time do not matter I put autopilot on and grab a cup of coffee. If I only got a hour. I must resist my urge to fly, that is my only consern

[CanvasKnight]

First I 100% agree with you guys that it should not be purposely rolled by one side. I personally like the map very much - even though there were low player numbers on last night me and some Blue bomber pilots managed to complete all of our objectives with less than 1 minute to spare! It came down to one ship out of 20 that we had to race to hit and hope to god that it sank before the timer ran out and the mission ended! And it sank just in time. It was purely epic. I have nothing against this map and I would have everyone know that whenever I fly on it, I spawn my Ju-87 out of Normandy with 100% fuel for maximum realism and climb to the historical altitudes and drop on my targets after flying across the Channel. This mission lets me be about as hardcore a dedicated Stuka pilot as I can be. I like that. What made it even more awesome was the for the first time I had a real escort! There were two Bf-110 pilots who spawned in at the Normandy airfield where I was warming up my Stuka and they escorted me all the way across the channel up to altitude and covered my escape from the target area after I destroyed the radar station with a precise strike! It brought a tear to my eye it was so awesome.

HOWEVER. I do not support teamkilling player either. That kind of behavior is stupid and all who agree that it is right to teamkill over any of this should be ashamed of yourselves. Let me tell you a quick story about one of my first experiences on this server many years ago when the game was new that made me almost not transfer over to it at all from 1946 and RoF. First, I was a total noob at CloD. I was only vaguely familiar with the map. I did not know what the targets looked like. Many mission briefings also don't tell the blues where their own targets are so that they can defend them. Because of this, I was unaware that there was a German convoy as well as a British convoy. During my very first online mission I flew a Bf-110C-7 with bombs to go and look for the Red convoy. I went out over the water and got lost, but eventually spotted a bunch of ships. Let me remind you that all of the ships in the game looked identical back then, and none of the ships have flags or any other kind of way to identify them. I went and bombed a ship, destroying it. Immediately a group of Bf-109s (all wearing the same squadron tags) came down and shot the living hell out of me until my pilot was dead. Upon questioning why in chat, I was told that I was teamkilled because I had destroyed a friendly target, as if a single AI object's "life" is worth the same as a human players "life". Upon explaining that I was new and that it had been an accident, they were still unapologetic. That negative experience made me think that CloD's community was toxic - a terrible first impression. Eventually I did come back online after I got a better computer and started playing and all was fine. But let me warn you - not everyone who hits the wrong targets is doing it on purpose. People who you teamkill, especially if they are new to the game, will remember your tags - if you are in a squadron your actions represent everyone else in that unit. To this day, the actions of those pilots still color my opinion of the people in that unit - I assume they are jerks until an individual can prove me wrong by being a nice guy in TS. Please, don't be those guys.

Oh, and I'm telling this story because it was my first impression of the game - I don't hold a grudge or anything, and it's not that serious. There are accidental teamkillings all the time. All I'm trying to say is that intentional teamkilling of other human players has other consequences - its not something that you should take lightly, no matter what the reason. It's not up to you to judge the guilt of others and decide on some sort of vigilante justice in a video game.

[CanvasKnight]

I share your sentiments. :grrr:


But to everyone: we don't want a vigilante atmosphere developing where guys are shooting at guys on the same side. It would be MUCH preferable to simply note who is flying what bomber types at the time of the same-side bombing and let us know by PM. We will be glad to follow up discretely, take action as necessary, and privately let you know what was done. As disgusting as bombing same-side targets is we have lots of new players on that may never come back if they start seeing frontier justice taking over. Please don't resort to team killing yourselves. Get their tickets pulled permanently instead!

YES, thank you for that point.

But there is still a problem with that solution. Now that this has become an issue on the forum, everyone is suspicious over who is doing it. I don't want people accusing all blue bomber pilots flying on the map of rolling the map because one random person is doing it. Just because Blue or Red are rolling the map through friendly destruction doesn't mean it is an organized effort by all the people flying bombers. For all you know it could be a single person. The only time I've seen this map get purposely rolled, it was a random person who wasn't even in TS (the blue targets were getting destroyed with no Red bombers in the air). And I don't even know for sure which player it was, because there were several bomber pilots not in TS. But I can vouch for the ones who were in TS because we were trying to hit the real targets, engaging in combat, etc. If everyone who is flying bombers on the map is immediately under suspicion and put on some sort of watch list because of the actions of one rogue pilot then I just won't fly on the map anymore to ensure that I'm never on such a list.

The best solution is probably just to use the sin bin to ensure that the map can't be rolled that way.

[Attila]

YES, thank you for that point.

But there is still a problem with that solution. Now that this has become an issue on the forum, everyone is suspicious over who is doing it. I don't want people accusing all blue bomber pilots flying on the map of rolling the map because one random person is doing it. Just because Blue or Red are rolling the map through friendly destruction doesn't mean it is an organized effort by all the people flying bombers. For all you know it could be a single person. The only time I've seen this map get purposely rolled, it was a random person who wasn't even in TS (the blue targets were getting destroyed with no Red bombers in the air). And I don't even know for sure which player it was, because there were several bomber pilots not in TS. But I can vouch for the ones who were in TS because we were trying to hit the real targets, engaging in combat, etc. If everyone who is flying bombers on the map is immediately under suspicion and put on some sort of watch list because of the actions of one rogue pilot then I just won't fly on the map anymore to ensure that I'm never on such a list.

The best solution is probably just to use the sin bin to ensure that the map can't be rolled that way.

Good to read that (especially your first post)! I hope some of the haters and bashers read it to!
Maybe it´s time to stop this discusion about this "peanuts"! It´s over and now we can look into a better future!:thumbsup:

[ATAG_Snapper]

YES, thank you for that point.

But there is still a problem with that solution. Now that this has become an issue on the forum, everyone is suspicious over who is doing it. I don't want people accusing all blue bomber pilots flying on the map of rolling the map because one random person is doing it. Just because Blue or Red are rolling the map through friendly destruction doesn't mean it is an organized effort by all the people flying bombers. For all you know it could be a single person. The only time I've seen this map get purposely rolled, it was a random person who wasn't even in TS (the blue targets were getting destroyed with no Red bombers in the air). And I don't even know for sure which player it was, because there were several bomber pilots not in TS. But I can vouch for the ones who were in TS because we were trying to hit the real targets, engaging in combat, etc. If everyone who is flying bombers on the map is immediately under suspicion and put on some sort of watch list because of the actions of one rogue pilot then I just won't fly on the map anymore to ensure that I'm never on such a list.

The best solution is probably just to use the sin bin to ensure that the map can't be rolled that way.

You're right, of course. I left the impression in my post that "pulling a ticket" (ie. banning) would be the automatic outcome. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I regret the wording -- written in haste, I'm afraid, to assuage the anger of the moment. Those who have a little more experience with this server (and forum) know that this is not how things are done here. In actuality a discreet investigation is held, all parties are contacted to have their say, and the benefit of the doubt is always given. If I had a nickel for all the PM's I've sent and received over the past 2+ years I'd be a very rich man. Many such incidents are quietly resolved behind the scenes, usually to everyone's satisfaction. The case you describe about bombing the friendly ships -- had I known -- would have had a much different ending for all parties.

You've raised a valid point about not knowing which targets are friendly ones to defend. I will check the Red/Blue briefings for each and ask the mission designers to ensure both are included both on the briefing page and when right-clicking the map in-game. I know the in-game map briefing has a glitch that shows only the Russian version that cannot be scrolled, so hopefully this can be fixed as well.

Thanks for your input! :)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Note to ATAG Admin: Snapper wants a nickel for each PM he sends and receives. :-P

(Would you like a PM on that?) :)

[ATAG_Naz]

Note to ATAG Admin: Snapper wants a nickel for each PM he sends and receives. :-P

(Would you like a PM on that?) :)

Just sent you a "PM" Snapper, please "reply" in kind old boy

$$$$$$$


:)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Just sent you a "PM" Snapper, please "reply" in kind old boy

$$$$$$$


:)

Heh, the ATAG Admin boys are pretty sharp. They'd be on to my little money-making trip pretty quick. Besides, they may start invoicing me on my little rants and tirades I regularly send to THEM! LOL

[CanvasKnight]

You're right, of course. I left the impression in my post that "pulling a ticket" (ie. banning) would be the automatic outcome. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I regret the wording -- written in haste, I'm afraid, to assuage the anger of the moment. Those who have a little more experience with this server (and forum) know that this is not how things are done here. In actuality a discreet investigation is held, all parties are contacted to have their say, and the benefit of the doubt is always given. If I had a nickel for all the PM's I've sent and received over the past 2+ years I'd be a very rich man. Many such incidents are quietly resolved behind the scenes, usually to everyone's satisfaction. The case you describe about bombing the friendly ships -- had I known -- would have had a much different ending for all parties.

You've raised a valid point about not knowing which targets are friendly ones to defend. I will check the Red/Blue briefings for each and ask the mission designers to ensure both are included both on the briefing page and when right-clicking the map in-game. I know the in-game map briefing has a glitch that shows only the Russian version that cannot be scrolled, so hopefully this can be fixed as well.

Thanks for your input! :)

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Having flown with you a couple times in TS in the past I know you're pretty level headed so I'm sure that any issues like that wouldn't be resolved in a bad way.

As for the mission briefings I know that some of them do include which targets to defend, but there are also still a few that don't. There is the spot where the targets are supposed to be listed (it will say something like Defend your Targets! but the list is missing or omitted). Having designed missions many, many years ago in the old Il-2 I know first hand how easy it is to forget to include certain things in the briefings since there is often a lot of information that has to be included. So much of a map maker's attention is focused on the meat of the project, the map itself and ensuring that it's awesome and works well, that sometimes it's just natural to forget stuff in the briefings every now and then.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

From my understanding of the Luftwaffe if you mistakenly drop your bombs on your own airfield you'd either be taken out and shot or sent to the Russian Front!

I guess if it was the weekend the miscreants could be instructed to leave the server and play BoS for a couple of hours. Week days, Hmmm! Shooting might be the only option!

;)

I had a couple of sorties on the Kanalkampf mission today. Had a great time!


Cheers!

[rollingstoned]

this map comes up every night at the only time that i have to play and it runs its duration every time; for a week now ive been playing just this map for 80% of the time im on. Can we please shuffle the maps rotation so that the 'off hours' guys dont get stuck on a map that is virtually undoable with minimal numbers?

and why airspawns? all that does is separate the Luftwaffe and burns morale for bombers. the fighters are injected straight into the fight thus leaving the bombers to fly from france all by themselves which is boring as hell and not realistic. Id rather have no air spawns and reduce the tonnage to take down tangmere by 50% that way we could all roll out together in big formations and really make a mark rather than shuttleing over bombs to the target like transports over and over and over again...

[ATAG_Lolsav]

May i suggest a compromise solution, to have the bombers spawning closer and also a airstart option? It takes really long to fly over, beeing forced to do around 10 long, long trips if i want to win the map.

[rollingstoned]

May i suggest a compromise solution, to have the bombers spawning closer and also a airstart option? It takes really long to fly over, beeing forced to do around 10 long, long trips if i want to win the map.

we tried desperately to roll this map again tonight to no avail, i logged off after blowing a motor mid channel on my 4th ju88 sortie to tangmere.. bomber airspawns would be nice

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Thank you for the feedback however I will not be adding bomber air spawns. If the mission can be easily beaten when there are 20-40 players online how is it going to stand up when there are 80-100 players online? As we are seeing more and more on ATAG the 80-100 player scenario is pretty much the norm on euro nights and weekends. The experience for fighters is just as important as it is for bombers and it's not fun for fighters when the bomber boys are changing the map every hour.

[rollingstoned]

Thank you for the feedback however I will not be adding bomber air spawns. If the mission can be easily beaten when there are 20-40 players online how is it going to stand up when there are 80-100 players online? As we are seeing more and more on ATAG the 80-100 player scenario is pretty much the norm on euro nights and weekends. The experience for fighters is just as important as it is for bombers and it's not fun for fighters when the bomber boys are changing the map every hour.

This map is not easily rolled with 20-40 people unless they are all working together flying bombers...the bombers seldom get escorts because they are separated by airpspawn. I wouldnt have such a huge problem with this map if it wasnt the only damn map playing at the time that i get on at night not to mention the fact that it runs its ENTIRE duration every single time regardless of how hard we try to roll it. Why not remove the air spawns? this is INSANE.. this map kills the server at night and the fact that it doesnt create the same basic playing feel as the other maps means it needs to be removed and revised.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Why not remove the air spawns?

You want air spawns? You don't want air spawns? What do air spawns for fighters have to do with how the bombers play the map? Fighters can still spawn from French bases, nothing prevents that. Case in point last weekend or the weekend before JG4 stated in chat they needed escort for Ju 88's out of Caen. 9./JG52 spawned at Plumetot and covered them the whole way across to Tangmere. How does fighter air spawns for people who have limited time and just want to get in a dogfight change that dynamic? You think those players are going to escort your bomber if they had to spawn 50km back on the ground?


... and the fact that it doesnt create the same basic playing feel as the other maps means it needs to be removed and revised.

I guess that right there is why we don't see eye to eye. I was not looking to create the same feel as the other maps.

[CanvasKnight]

Yeah, the people who are using the airspawns in their fighters are either people specifically trying to escort a buddy in a Stuka, or they are looking to do nothing but get into a dogfight quickly. Those people probably wouldn't want to escort a Ju-88 even if they had to spawn back in Normandy. If there are people on TS who are offering to escort bombers just have them spawn in Normandy at the two airbases next to Caen in either Bf-109s or Bf-110s and have them take 100% fuel for the 109s. They'll be able to escort all the way. If there aren't enough people in TS offering the only hope is to ask in chat.

But yeah, the map is almost impossible to complete within the time limit late NA time.

[rollingstoned]

You want air spawns? You don't want air spawns? What do air spawns for fighters have to do with how the bombers play the map? Fighters can still spawn from French bases, nothing prevents that. Case in point last weekend or the weekend before JG4 stated in chat they needed escort for Ju 88's out of Caen. 9./JG52 spawned at Plumetot and covered them the whole way across to Tangmere. How does fighter air spawns for people who have limited time and just want to get in a dogfight change that dynamic? You think those players are going to escort your bomber if they had to spawn 50km back on the ground?



I guess that right there is why we don't see eye to eye. I was not looking to create the same feel as the other maps.

Hans! the feel of atag maps are ones that can be played with any amount of players with no bias toward any type of flyer ie. bombers, dogfighters, guys with 10 hours to play or guys with 1 hour to play. Kanalkampf is not enjoyable when there are 15 people on, everybody stares at the map screen and chats on TS reluctant to spawn because we all look forward to a 30 minute solo flight over endless seas just to get knocked out over the objective by spitfires that havent seen a german in hours. The map shouldnt be unplayable with low numbers.. something needs to change because on the off hours this map turns into a horrific grind where you are forced to to shuttle bombs over and over again with no escorts.

[trademe900]

Kanalkampf is not enjoyable when there are 15 people on, everybody stares at the map screen and chats . The map shouldnt be unplayable with low numbers.. something needs to change because on the off hours this map turns into a horrific grind where you are forced to to shuttle bombs over and over again with no escorts.

This can not be denied. I think something needs to be done if we find ourselves on this map with 10-15 people and can do nothing but count down the 3 hours of impasse. We even have a possible solution already with reddog's vote tool- what could be wrong? In these particular situations I guarantee we would have a near full vote. As others have stated, it is sometimes simply not playable. I suppose this does not concern the majority of you all over there in euro time one tiny bit, and I don't blame you either, for I have had some mad times on this map when getting the chance to play with all you european folk with 100 players. But the minority who are playing whilst you guys are in bed or at work still have to try and speak out.

Let me give another example of the problem some of us are faced with. Tonight we had the usual low player numbers battling very happily over Calais and Oye-Plage and became aware that this map would be next. In response to this, both blue and red players recognized that we needed to cease the bombing of the map targets so that we could continue our night playing. Bombing ceased and we ended up having a very enjoyable night until the server crashed and the map turned over to Kanalkampf where we lost almost all players as people saw the situation we had no control over.

Once again, I wish to reiterate how much fun this map can be and the memorable flights that many I know will remember. As mentioned, 'Stuka madness' is the name we gave to this map for it's fun times- and that's only one facet of the map! With this post I am just trying to illustrate the very real problem here when we have less than 30, 40 players.

[LuseKofte]

I wonder if it is possible to implement a vote function when there are less than 30 people on the server. Vote for a rotation that is.
I know this function is annoying, but when there are few it could be a asset.

I understand the frustration RS is talking about, and for me this map take a lot of time. I never join in on this map unless I got a couple of hours I know I can use, when I do I love it. But it is a dilemma

[SoW Reddog]

Jaeger, of course it is. The script as written currently allows the mission maker to decide the minimum number of votes AND the overall percentage. So, if we say we want at least 5 people to vote to skip AND 80% of the players, then in the case of 10 players on the server, 8 would have to vote to skip it. If there were 100, 80 would have to vote for it to do anything. The higher the number of players in the server, the more unlikely it is that it will get skipped IMO.

[trademe900]

Jaeger, of course it is. The script as written currently allows the mission maker to decide the minimum number of votes AND the overall percentage. So, if we say we want at least 5 people to vote to skip AND 80% of the players, then in the case of 10 players on the server, 8 would have to vote to skip it. If there were 100, 80 would have to vote for it to do anything. The higher the number of players in the server, the more unlikely it is that it will get skipped IMO.

I would like to see someone try and disagree with this rationale. Solid, mate. Reddog's vote tool- gents, this is what is really needed. The map makers do a great job, and if the map doesn't suit the conditions at the time then why should they need to go trying changes to cater for all. Unnecessary headaches and bickering- just let the vote tool sort it out, job done. Also it could be useful for any number of players too when the objectives are bugged and can not be destroyed due to say, a tank that has fallen off hiding in the river under the bridge, map too dark to see, a missing boat that can't be sunk, etc.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

well i hope we get more maps i have a feeling we'll be stuck playing the same 2-3 maps.....

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Saipan, that's really how it is if you always play at the same time - like me. Usually for me it varies slightly from week to week (1 out of the three is different, for example) and on weekends is when I get to fly different maps. I didn't get to fly Kanalkampf yet since the addition of the airfield.

(There are a couple of threads about this situation.)

As I've stated already, I'm for the voting script. As Reddog said, when the server is full, good luck trying to convince 80 people to skip the map. Nothing about any particular map, but sometimes it may be nice to have a choice.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Gruber me old mate , if i was you i wouldnt bother, some of these people just dont see it. :goofy
I must get my ground crew to fit a 10 gallon tank , thats all i'll need

[9./JG52_Meyer]

well i hope we get more maps i have a feeling we'll be stuck playing the same 2-3 maps.....

This is very true :thumbsup: but some people who dont like a map will try to ruin it for others. So what do to do ?. Shame really, because of the small size of our community we need all the maps , TF patches and general good input from as much bods as we can. However unforntunatly not everyone is happy with this and in the short space of time i have been playing this sim/game (6 months) it is mainly people who dont contribute anything that do the griping and moaning .
What is is that is said at the start of every Mission impossible episode? from the series
"This tape will self desruct in 5 seconds" but wait.... we have always got this
http://forum.warthunder.com/

[trademe900]

This is very true :thumbsup: but some people who dont like a map will try to ruin it for others. So what do to do ?. Shame really, because of the small size of our community we need all the maps , TF patches and general good input from as much bods as we can. However unforntunatly not everyone is happy with this and in the short space of time i have been playing this sim/game (6 months) it is mainly people who dont contribute anything that do the griping and moaning .
What is is that is said at the start of every Mission impossible episode? from the series
"This tape will self desruct in 5 seconds" but wait.... we have always got this
http://forum.warthunder.com/

ffs don't you get it? It's not about the quality of the map or having it abolished or any of that tripe... how many times does this need to be said? It's about this particular map being unplayable with low player numbers. Thankfully for you, you get to enjoy this awesome map when there are tonnes of people playing and operations happening. Please consider other players for a moment, or just try to imagine playing this with 10 players. This goes back to what you indeed mentioneda bout the small community; what about the people playing whilst you are sleeping or working? Please think for a second- people are not ill intentionally slagging this map here.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Hey guys. This was me bombing the blue objectives that day I think. As far as name calling goes, I will take full responsibility for one of these organised attacks on our objectives but I would like to mention that I only came to know of this after I was called in by ATAG squad players and other regulars themselves to bomb the targets; in other words, the majority of the team all instigated the attack, given the situation at that time. Many times this map has come to a stale mate/time remaining situation with boat bugs (many, many pilots will attest to this), leaving the blue team with no options. I plead that it also needs to be understood that at that particular time, red players were happy we had taken out the targets as the map was just not playable with the player numbers/world time. For the record, I have been involved twice in total with these skirmishes.

I wish to apologize to the map maker Hans Gruber for adding to this negative trend when playing this very good map. In my experience this is one of the most immersive and fun maps that has given rise to countless mad stuka and ju88 sorties I lead myself that many I know here will remember! I really hope I can reconcile with those I may have offended- there aren't that many of us together in this sim world. Once again, sorry guys.

And because your in a time Zone that is not too your liking it gives you the excuse to do the above? did you even consider the other people flying at the time who were quite happy to fly it.
You have options too you , get online earlier or later , move to a timezone too your liking, play another sim, or ask ATAG hierachy to rotate or put that map on too another time zone so you dont have to play it when you get online.This of course will take time . You apologised for your actions Gruber accepted your apology and that for me is an end too it . Hope fully a vote system can be implemented for people who want to rotate this map.Or some other solution can be found for people who fly this map when its not populated well, We shall have to wait and see.My squad was on at the time you did the above but i cant for the life of me remember the numbers on . Never mind im sure it will be resolved one way or the other.

[LuseKofte]

Well this is going nowhere, I like to stop this before it goes any further. I go behind Trademe 900 because he is a devoted player in this server. He do only teamwork stuff and is a real pleasure to fly with.
It will be a great loss making this server split up, lets find a way to rotate this map so it is up when there is 60 + players. You got to agree it is in this number this map is really fun. Big maps in general make it pointless to even join when few people.
Meyer I know you , you are just the same man as Trademe and this disagreement only divide an already divided community. Lets solve and not make trouble

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Jaeger i couldnt give a monkeys who your behind mate , there is no intention to split any community up. I agree with you, few players on a server = no fun.But there are ways to to get things done that you are not happy with like... asking? and i appreciate it will take some time all i am asking for is some patience not just piling in and doing whatever and sod the rest . It is not my fault that this map is on at a certain time when other people log on and there is hardly any players on it that is for them to PM ATAG people and see what can be done about it. I personally have no issues with people on here i like to think that we are all pulling in the same direction so that map makers can do their bit , and TF theirs to keep us all entertained and interested. Because my friend if not then we may as well pack it in now.
Now if we are quite finished i am off to stroke the lizard :thumbsup:

[SoW Reddog]

To be perfectly honest there is only one person who can do anything about the server rotation, and that is Bliss, who I note has stayed out of any discussion regarding this over the past few weeks so I can only infer that he's either not interested in doing anything different, is too busy to reply or hasn't read the posts.

Other than that there is one other person who can do something about the mission - Gruber. He can either use the voting code, or not use it. It's his mission and while I'd like to see the vote code introduced to every map on the server, it's down to the individual authors to make that decision unless there is an ATAG directive to do so.

I don't really see that any further "discussion" makes much sense. Clearly peoples positions are intractable and we can talk till the cows come home. Until one, or both of the above get involved, nothing will change.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

I have no problem if ATAG wanted to institute a voting function into their commander. I don't think it would be effective for the simple reason most people won't know how to vote or even know a vote is active but that is another issue.

However, I do not agree that just cause a map cannot be won quickly by a few players that it should be labeled as "unplayable". I think a few more missions in the rotation so there is some variety among different time slots and there isn't a problem.

[rollingstoned]

Meyer and Gruber think we're just a bunch of newbs trying to get his map changed to easy mode.
Honestly im done trying to have a discussion with children.

[trademe900]

Ok then. Let's just hope this discussion gets non-euro people's voices out there and rallies some support for reddog's vote tool which it beggars belief has not yet been implemented. Don't see any issues if things were that way.

Cheers for the map Gruber!

[ATAG_Lolsav]

im done with this, its like talking to children.

Despite the arguments on each side, please do not follow the path of the easy insult. RS we do not approve this kind of reaction. To the offended.. dont uprise it please. Arm enough was alredy done by RS statement there.

[rollingstoned]

Despite the arguments on each side, please do not follow the path of the easy insult. RS we do not approve this kind of reaction. To the offended.. dont uprise it please. Arm enough was alredy done by RS statement there.

If i actually thought they read our posts and tried to put themselves in our shoes i wouldnt say anything disrespectful lolsav.
In my opinion its a HUGE fucking insult for Meyer to say 'go change time zones' or 'go play another server'
I wont debate people incapable of rational compromise and nobody else here should continue with this thread as its clear that they view us as newbs who fly in a timezone they dont give a shit about.

*slaps glove across their faces*
Ill happily duel any JG52 member 1v1 for the rights to change this map but i will not subject myself to belligerent half witted rebuttals any longer.

good day sirs
-rs

[ATAG_Snapper]

OK, enough. Rollingstoned is getting a time out until he can cool off.

I apologize to the rest of the forum members, especially Hans Gruber and Reddog, for this little display of pique and foul language. At times such as this, I think we need to remind ourselves that this is a video game and keep that in perspective. Also, the mission designers are generous enough to provide their missions to us free of charge; they constantly tweak and make revisions to make them better, and spend literally hundreds of hours of their own free time doing so. None of us are entitled to demand anything. The mission designers owe us NOTHING.

Personally, I'm very grateful for what they do and for the fact they seek our feedback and input. :salute:

[Zisi]

A standard voting system might be the easiest approach. The voting system could even disable itself past a population of something like 25 people, I see very little need to vote a new map when theres enough people on the server. However such a system can help a great deal when at low population.

The fact is, the bigger maps tend to depopulate the server late at night (us tz). People see the map come up and simply decide its probably time to go to sleep / do other things. Often, suspecting one of these maps to come up, many will try to keep the previous map running as long as possible (not bomb the targets, etc).

Kanalkampf plays just fine at higher populations, and I like it very much, but not at lower populations.


.... And because your in a time Zone that is not too your liking it gives you the excuse to do the above? did you even consider the other people flying at the time who were quite happy to fly it. ...

I was there, and helped roll the map. Two things; you weren't there and yet you presume to judge him/us? Yes, actually, we did consider that there might be others who didn't share our opinion. Thats why we asked everyone else on coms, on both sides, if they agreed, and there was complete consensus, or at the very least nobody who cared enough to disagree. This was also after about an hour of flying the map, and seeing the population drop by half.

Suggesting that he switch timezones to resolve the problem, is flatly toxic (though if you mail me some Swedish citizenship, I might consider it XD). Keep in mind, we often are on earlier in the day when its highly populated in addition to flying at night at low population.

None of the above should be construed in any way as a rip on the map, it's a great map, and it's perfectly fine to have maps that focus on high populations, as well as those that play well at low populations. We are simply suggesting that it would be beneficial to provide some mechanism by which maps appropriate for a given population level can be played.

Another possibility would be adding some logic to the map rotation system by which certain maps could be given priority at certain population levels.

[Zisi]

I actually want to say a little more about this.

I used to be part of =]H[= (Hardcore Gamers), which provided the two most populous servers for project reality on BF2. At peak times both servers would be at 64 players. The first server would generally stay more or less populated 24/7, similar to ATAG. Some maps were simply too large to play well with small quantities of players, and if these maps were allowed to run at night the population would drop to 0-3, and would not repopulate until morning. On the flip side, when the server was full it was important that it be running appropriate maps for that as well. We see the same thing more or less on ATAG, there are nights that stay 10+ at the low, building in population very early, and others that just fall out and depopulate completely until later on. I suspect that there would be a correlation between what maps are picked, and this behavior.

IMO the ideal situation overall would be to add logic to the map selector to pick maps that make sense for whatever population level the last map ended with. Possibly also hardcoding in some small maps irrespective of prior population very late at night to proactively prevent depopulation. A series of maps specifically designed to be fun with only a handful of people, would help keep the server alive, leading to the server becoming full earlier in the day.

One additional note on the related subject of a second server, which has come up recently as our population grows. Project reality at its height was much more popular in general than CloD is now, though still a niche game. We had two servers, and as I mentioned above, at peak hours both would be fully populated. However it would generally depopulate at night, and when that happened, we as a clan would have to "seed" it in the morning to get it going. As much as anyone might tell people "go play on the 2nd server when the first is full" expect to have to do it yourselves, when people see respected players/tags that they recognize on the other server, they are far more likely to switch over to help seed, or start playing there instead.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Zisi FYI i was there so was my whole squad , i have moved on from this now and PMd who i feel i need to by way of defusing this whole subject which unfortnuataly has gotten way out of control.

[trademe900]

:thumbsup: All is good in the cliffs of dover world. So much cool shit actually, I'm still amazed I've got this simulation (in the coolest aerial combat theater of ww2) to play with a bunch of like-minded folk on one great fucking battlefield that is the one and only ATAG. Very happy to have this sim, the missions and every one of you here flying and fighting together. Nothing but a straight-forward issue that everyone has now heard the gist of; we have voiced ourselves out and that is all we can do.

RS deserves his membership enabled please- this guy is a great sport, team player and character for the server. This ban is undeserved and upsetting.

[LuseKofte]

Well the main problem for clod is the lack of populated servers. We got one to choose from and it is populated half of the available 24 hours.
This is why we get this kind of discussions.
I would love to have a Australia server around, it will give me a opportunity to fly within all 24 hours .
I think the missions are all good but some is not playable with few flyers. This one happens to be one of my favorites with many flyers. But it is simply not playable with few.
I am reluctant to critique this map since I got great respect for Gruber and his missions.

[EG14_Marcast]

I think it just happened again....Blues bombing their own targets....the blue targets were knocked out in very short time with no Blenheims on air. While after 20 min we were very close to Portsmouth. This thing should really stop :grrr:

[trademe900]

10:55PM GMT, all the red objectives were just destroyed by blue's own bombers. There were 0 Blenheims flying. We had tried so hard and had made multiple long raids on Tangemere. We had then flown for a very long time (marcastel57, bigtrout, godfather, werra and myself) over the channel en route to raid the port when the blue bombers took down their own bases.

[SoW Reddog]

So who was it? Name and shame seems to be the only way. By PM to snapper of course.

[Dutch]

Oops. Stumbled into a big one there. :goofy

[ATAG_Snapper]

I would really like to know. I was online in that mission flying with Deacon south of the Isle of Wight when the mission abruptly ended. I didn't realize it was a Team Killing on objectives that was the cause of it. Please, if anyone who knows who was behind this let me know by PM. This has got to stop.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

I am saying nothing, i think i know who it is but after the last debacle about this i am staying well clear . I flew this mission last night and saw our bases going up in the game log. So i left i just cant be arsed anymore what is the point . :ind:
These morons wont be happy untill they get there own way I have tried to do my bit but it all went the way of the pear, someone else can try to sort it

BTW there where 60 + players on this "unpopular" map

[trademe900]

Well you know more than I do, it sounds. You were on too Meyer? Most likely on your JG52 teamspeak at the time I suppose. All of us were on ATAG. That's right, the server was well populated at this time and therefore I am a bit confused as to why, whoever they were, bombed their own bases. We had invested a shitload of time bombing tangemere and right when we were about to raid the port with 4 Ju88 (literally right as godfather was over the target with his Lotfe set up tracking it), the mission was done for. Was looking forward to completing this one.

[SoW Reddog]

Meyer, just pm snapper your suspicion. It's not difficult. Why not if you think you know who it might have been.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Hi Trademe yes , there was 3 of our Staffel flying at the time, we saw your formation of 4 ju88s go over the English coast drop bombs and turn around. In fact we escorted you for a while from a high position but saw some targets of opportunity over IOW when you were Havana so we left you to go and have a look at those. You were clear and feet wet at the time on route to France. My 2 Kameraden then had to leave the game so they went back and landed i mooched about IOW for a while and as i was flying back to France that is when the blue bases being destroyed messages came up .
Correction i only saw 3 bombers so maybe that formation wasnt your lot

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Hi Redd just need one piece of info from some one i have just PMd and then it will confirm who it is

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

FFS not again.. why don't these people just go and fly on AX Dogfight?

[trademe900]

Correction i only saw 3 bombers so maybe that formation wasnt your lot

El Gringo dropped out due to engine failure so it was only 3 towards the end actually.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Ok just got pm back as to my suspicions and i was wrong it was not who i thought it was.Which is why i was reluctant to name him to ATAG untill i was 100% sure im in enough shit as it is with regards to this map and knobs messing it up. So im done and im out of here

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

This pisses me off too. I wasn't on but hey, if you just want to turn and burn low go fly AX Dogfights. Some people think it's a bad server because it's unrealistic (planeset and icons). Come on... flying a 109 low on the deck turning in a furball is?

I just hope we figure out who it was/is.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Before you rush to judgment check for Br.20s as well as Blenheim's. If it should happen again take a screen shot of netstats to see who was flying what.

The whole thing just stinks. We have only one map and you try to do something different and parts of the community dump on you for it. This has completely taken the wind out of my sails in terms of creating new missions or events.

[Spinal Tap]

Hello all,
I am completely new to this forum, and literally just created an account to give this piece of info that could maybe help stop all of the idiots bombing their own objectives:
The other day I was on teamspeak with a few of the people involved in this discussion and was setting up a bomber raid with a few people on some mission (I don't remember which one). While I was warming up my 88 at oye plage along with trademe and a few others some bloke spawned beside me in an 88 and proceeded to drop all of his bombs, which of course killed himself and me instantly. Frustrated, I checked the text box to see who had done it so that I could report him, and to my surprise... There was nothing. Nobody was reported to have killed me, and although I was reported dead, the other person wasn't. So unless this was some sort of weird AI glitch, which seems unlikely, this person could be the one who is ruining kanalkampf for the rest of us, and potentially they could be destroying red targets like this. So I have 2 questions, one for snapper and one for Hans.
Snapper: is there any way to detect these actions as administrator?
Hans: could you make it impossible to use alt f2, which I think makes your character not die when your plane blows up, and also why not make it so that the mission lists who destroys each objective, so that an atag member could ban people who are obviously destroying their own objectives on purpose?
Cheers
Spinal

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hi ST and welcome to the ATAG Forum!:salute:

Thank you for the input. Interesting feedback on that Ju88 that self-destructed. Your suggestions are excellent and are being considered as we work work behind the scenes to put a stop to this annoying nonsense.

[LuseKofte]

First of all, this map is fantastic to fly in. I love it. In the evenings here in Europe with lot of players this map is in my opinion as good as it can ever be. I love it.
Now many people is aware this can happened and if it does again I think we will be able to spot who it is.

[Zisi]

Thank you for the feedback however I will not be adding bomber air spawns. If the mission can be easily beaten when there are 20-40 players online how is it going to stand up when there are 80-100 players online?

Not well!, But thats the thing. It's a great map the way it is, for large numbers of people. It's not a great map for small numbers of people. And by small, we aren't talking 20-40, this discussion is really about <15.

Nobody here WANTS to bomb friendly targets. On one occasion I helped do this, along with at least one ATAG member, and server wide consensus, certainly enough to pass a map change vote. I cannot speak for other times this has occurred, and I am not going to defend other instances because I wasn't there and have no way of knowing if it was a small group, or server consensus. That difference matters. You know some nights there are so few people on that we will all gather in one channel, let each other know where we are so some action can happen? This is becoming rarer lately, but if you are flying with 10 people total, are we to villainize those people for not flying the way they would when the server is full?

Gruber, your maps are some of my favorites. We need great maps like Kanalkampf that are focused on a large number of people. The ship fights are awesome, flying in the south part of the map is a very welcome change of scenery, and the harbour objectives are really well setup, I love it. Much of the day the server is populated well enough to support large maps. It however is not the reality at night (ustz). Most people do not find it fun to fly around for an hour and not find anyone, and please note, I'm not new here, I don't have trouble finding or spotting targets, and generally every sortie I come back with at least one kill. However the amount of time it takes to find action in Kanalkampf when the server has very few people in it can very well be greater than a full tank of gas. As for bombers, the number of targets, while not an impediment to a populated server, is unlikely with a handful.

Consider the above, now consider a situation where you have 10 people in the server, thats five on a side. That map will NOT be completed, the server will sit there with almost nobody in it until morning.

The friendly bombing is to all an undesired symptom, but it's not the problem. The quick solution would be to add a voting system (which could disable itself past a certain population total, say 20-25ish). The best solution would be to do that, and add some logic that would make large maps preferred for high population totals, and small maps preferred for small totals, and to add some maps specifically for keeping the server alive at night, a couple fairly easy objectives per side, probably with lots of ai bombers.

Do the above (and I am happy to help) and the server will have more players at night, and will consequently become highly populated earlier.

[EG14_Marcast]

Consider the above, now consider a situation where you have 10 people in the server, thats five on a side. That map will NOT be completed, the server will sit there with almost nobody in it until morning.

The friendly bombing is to all an undesired symptom, but it's not the problem.

Well, this was certainly not yesterday night's case. When I entered there were 69 players, Trademe and the others had already hit targets and we were again en route for them. This time it was somebody who just didn't like this map and wanted to switch fast to the next, with no regards to all the other players. A behavior that has to be severely sanctioned in my opinion.

[Zisi]

spawned beside me in an 88 and proceeded to drop all of his bombs

On occasion this might be an accident, however people do on occasion use that to grief :/ I don't think oye plage is an allied tonnage objective on any map however, so this example is not one where they were trying to take out their own objectives, etc.


Well, this was certainly not yesterday night's case. When I entered there were 69 players, Trademe and the others had already hit targets and we were again en route for them. This time it was somebody who just didn't like this map and wanted to switch fast to the next, with no regards to all the other players. A behavior that has to be severely sanctioned in my opinion.

Yeah obviously a case like this, if it's accurate as you describe, is not acceptable. You would have no arguement from me on that.

[Spinal Tap]

"On occasion this might be an accident, however people do on occasion use that to grief :/ I don't think oye plage is an allied tonnage objective on any map however, so this example is not one where they were trying to take out their own objectives, etc."



That is not the point though. The major concern to me is that said individual was able to destroy friendlies without being recognized, which could potentially be used to bomb airfields that are objectives. Also please keep in mind that this is just an example, and that this is not necessarily being used to destroy objectives in kanalkampf. However, is a loophole that could be exploited, and the more flaws we can find and fix the harder it is for saboteurs to ruin our fun.

[Zisi]

"On occasion this might be an accident, however people do on occasion use that to grief :/ I don't think oye plage is an allied tonnage objective on any map however, so this example is not one where they were trying to take out their own objectives, etc."



That is not the point though. The major concern to me is that said individual was able to destroy friendlies without being recognized, which could potentially be used to bomb airfields that are objectives. Also please keep in mind that this is just an example, and that this is not necessarily being used to destroy objectives in kanalkampf. However, is a loophole that could be exploited, and the more flaws we can find and fix the harder it is for saboteurs to ruin our fun.

Yeah... I *think* that bombs do not count as damage inflicted by you, I have no idea if that's fixable or not. In any case there is no way currently to know who actually bombed any particular objective. I agree though, for a lot of reasons such a capability would be awesome, because you could potentially have an objective category on the web stats.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

The friendly bombing is to all an undesired symptom, but it's not the problem. The quick solution would be to add a voting system (which could disable itself past a certain population total, say 20-25ish).


The code for this has already been posted on these forums.
The "London Raids" mission on the server already has this code.

[trademe900]

The code for this has already been posted on these forums.
The "London Raids" mission on the server already has this code.

So, at the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest here- why can't we have this added to every mission?

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

So, at the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest here- why can't we have this added to every mission?

Perhaps individuals of the server administrators prefer another approach?... there's no apparent technical reason why not.

Alternatively, those players who are members of ATAG could lobby internally with their group to have this code set as a requirement for all missions on their server. That's entirely up to ATAG to determine.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Pardon me if I'm not entirely motivated to spend my limited free time incorporating code into the mission's script, testing to make sure it doesn't conflict with the existing code, testing to make sure it actually works just so players have the ability to skip the mission. Spending my time so people so can NOT play the mission does not sound like a value proposition to me. At this time it is not a priority.

I've yet to read a convincing argument as to why the mission is "unplayable" with low player numbers. The area between the Isle of Wight & Tangmere is almost the exact same as Littlestone to Manston. The flight time from the air spawns to the Isle of Wight is a mere 3 minutes longer than that from Calais to Hawkinge. The flight time from Caen to Tangmere is a few minutes longer than that from Tramecourt to Eastchurch or from Calais area to targets around London. If there isn't an easy place to vulch like Littlestone or Hawkinge that somehow makes it "unplayable". I fly in US time zones as well and I see no difference between this mission and any other in the rotation when few players are on the server. They are all equally dull in that scenario.

If the mission is going to be a constant source of drama I'd just as soon see ATAG remove it from the rotation than spend more time adding elements to appease the vocal minority. I'm thankful to ATAG for hosting and allowing the mission to get the exposure I always hoped it might get. It's absence might make some remember it with fondness. :D

[EG14_Marcast]

I think this mission is one of the best. Tonight we had a very nice raid with 5 bombers in formation from Caen to Tangmere, and it was great fun. Unfortunately we couldn't make more, as the same thing happened again.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

I think this mission is one of the best. Tonight we had a very nice raid with 5 bombers in formation from Caen to Tangmere, and it was great fun. Unfortunately we couldn't make more, as the same thing happened again.

That really sucks. The easiest solution would be to make the map not end if blue targets are destroyed. Map would only end when time expires or red targets are destroyed. This could be done in 1 key stroke by Bliss or Colander.



if (InitialRedObjectiveCount >= 400)// Red battle Success


:-P

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

I would not not vote to skip this map or any other! This is a great and enjoyable map. The problem with a 'voting system' is that if the minority, who wish to change maps, do not get their own way they may simply resort to the same tactics to roll it anyway. We have a great set of maps on rotation - I am pretty much with the majority view here - if players don't like a map then go elsewhere.

[EG14_Marcast]

That really sucks. The easiest solution would be to make the map not end if blue targets are destroyed. Map would only end when time expires or red targets are destroyed.

This is a good idea. Reds have anyway very few chances to win this map with Blenheims and Br20s, and Red bomber pilots could enjoy the same their missions. But what a crazy thing to have to use this expedients just for one or two persons...

[LuseKofte]

I was in there when Blue lost one objective and it did not say who did it. I fly Red Blenheim IVF . I find it very disrespectful that people take this liberty of ruin the game for others.
Everybody knows there will be sanctions if this is done, I wonder why they risk it

[Spinal Tap]

That really sucks. The easiest solution would be to make the map not end if blue targets are destroyed. Map would only end when time expires or red targets are destroyed. This could be done in 1 key stroke by Bliss or Colander.



if (InitialRedObjectiveCount >= 400)// Red battle Success


:-P

Don't do anything for now. The issue is close to being resolved. The few individuals who are bombing their own objectives when many people are on the server have been caught.

[Otyg]

As a fairly new player in this community I would like to say I really enjoy the map. So thanks to all who makes maps for the game in their spare time.
All I can offer is a digital beer, and I sincerely hope you don't get a imaginary hangover from it. ;)

[trademe900]

Could we get G.50 planes into the map?

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

I would not not vote to skip this map or any other! This is a great and enjoyable map. The problem with a 'voting system' is that if the minority, who wish to change maps, do not get their own way they may simply resort to the same tactics to roll it anyway. We have a great set of maps on rotation - I am pretty much with the majority view here - if players don't like a map then go elsewhere.

+1 :salute:

[trademe900]

Devastating. We put so much effort into the map, had bombers shuttling endlessly bombs hitting tangemere and the port. Took everything down, only to have the infamous missing boat bug again!!! 19 out of 20 ships. 17 ships did not complete this objective like it did before. Has the map been changed back?

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Devastating. We put so much effort into the map, had bombers shuttling endlessly bombs hitting tangemere and the port. Took everything down, only to have the infamous missing boat bug again!!! 19 out of 20 ships. 17 ships did not complete this objective like it did before. Has the map been changed back?

If you are reporting a bug you really must provide more information. What order were the objectives completed in? Were all other objectives including 15 of 20 ships destroyed before Tangmere? Do you have a track? I need information to try and replicate because 1 ship will not make a difference. There is a safety factor of 5 ships built in.

[trademe900]

First radar, then some of the boats, port, rest of boats up to 19, tangemere. Yeah, I knew the safety net of 5 ships had been made and therefore I didn't expect this. No track, sorry.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

First radar, then some of the boats, port, rest of boats up to 19, tangemere. Yeah, I knew the safety net of 5 ships had been made and therefore I didn't expect this. No track, sorry.

Thanks. I was able to replicate and there is a bug but at this time I do not have a solution. If Tangmere is not the last target it works correctly so for the time being leave a few ships or another target to be destroyed after Tangmere. In any event the mission still ends when the time limit expires.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

v1.2 changelog:

- Removed Br.20 from mission.
- Addition of new RAF bomber base at Redhill in case coastal fields are being vulched.
- Addition of new LW bomber base at Theville. Shorter flight then from Caen by about 50km.
- Red objectives changed to LW airbases along French coast (Theville (AD07.2), Querqueville (AB07.6), & Le Havre (AO05.9). 3,000 lbs of bombs required per airfield, about 3 x Blenheims each. These are area targets like Tangmere. Fecamp (AQ08.6) target remains.
- Changed kg of bombs required to destroy Tangmere.
- All airfield targets Theville (AD07.2), Querqueville (AB07.6), Tangmere (AJ20.2) & Le Havre (AO05.9) will show a & destroyed message when a bomb explodes within the airfield perimeter.
- Fixed a bug where the mission did not end immediately after the blue objectives were completed if Tangmere was the last target.
- Updated despawn script to remove fire effect. Abandoned planes will no longer jettison canopies.
- Removal of AI flights to test server stability.


I believe this is the first time red bomber pilots have had this type of airfield objective. Maybe we will see bombing from higher altitudes since accuracy is not as important. See OP for updated briefing.

[EG14_Marcast]

Hopefully this will help. The area in orange is the most important, the red areas are also worth a look at.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/atp9697/th_Portsmouth_zps84f2acb3.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/atp9697/media/Portsmouth_zps84f2acb3.jpg.html)



A question for Gruber: in the pic the main target area in Portsmouth is in great part made of water, do we have good hit also if bombs fall in that?
Thanks again for this map, I’ve great fun flying in formation in it :thumbsup:

[SoW Reddog]

Answering from assumption here, but the Portsmouth target is a "trigger" based target, so it's all about destroying static objects. Bombs hitting water aren't going to be particularly helpful unless the splashdamage is enough to destroy close targets (which I have seen in testing my own missions before now - buildings seem to be made out of paper as often as not!)

[Talisman]

If a human LW pilot crash lands at one of the air sea rescue points after being shot down in combat, does the red pilot that shot him down get credited with a kill, or is it classed as RTB from an air spawn?

The reason I ask is because many times I have left a badly damaged 109 aircraft off the English coast to fly on, thinking that it should just about make it to crash land at one of the rescue stations, but then I never get a downed aircraft message. I suppose they could be making it all the way back to France and I have overestimated the damage I have caused (probably the case and I need to adjust my damage assessment and expectations, LOL), but it has happened so many times now that I thought I would finally seek some clarification.

Thanks for a very enjoyable map/mission.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[trademe900]

v1.2 changelog:

- Removed Br.20 from mission.
- Addition of new RAF bomber base at Redhill in case coastal fields are being vulched.
- Addition of new LW bomber base at Theville. Shorter flight then from Caen by about 50km.
- Red objectives changed to LW airbases along French coast (Theville (AD07.2), Querqueville (AB07.6), & Le Havre (AO05.9). 3,000 lbs of bombs required per airfield, about 3 x Blenheims each. These are area targets like Tangmere. Fecamp (AQ08.6) target remains.
- Changed kg of bombs required to destroy Tangmere.
- All airfield targets Theville (AD07.2), Querqueville (AB07.6), Tangmere (AJ20.2) & Le Havre (AO05.9) will show a & destroyed message when a bomb explodes within the airfield perimeter.
- Fixed a bug where the mission did not end immediately after the blue objectives were completed if Tangmere was the last target.
- Updated despawn script to remove fire effect. Abandoned planes will no longer jettison canopies.
- Removal of AI flights to test server stability.


I believe this is the first time red bomber pilots have had this type of airfield objective. Maybe we will see bombing from higher altitudes since accuracy is not as important. See OP for updated briefing.

Wow Hans, these are awesome changes. Flying Kanalkampf right now and I am really looking forward to playing the updated map. I can't wait to fly Blenheim level bombing those bases and having a more practical tangemere target with the massive flight cut down a bit. This is great.

[Zisi]

I think my favorite part about this map is the way the port objectives are setup. It's really cool having an objective thats kind of spread out between various things over the port, it makes a lot of sense and is quite immersive.

[trademe900]

double

[trademe900]

It's so much better like this, thanks Hans. That massive long haul cut down a bit makes for great playability. Today it was short lived however- Theville was destroyed by suicide bombing. However I don't feel it was an intentional suicide attack of the airbase but rather someone switching plane and bombload blowing as it despawned (which happened all the time at the old Caen airbase). It got blown in just 1 bombload and we couldn't get our bombers anymore

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

It's so much better like this, thanks Hans. That massive long haul cut down a bit makes for great playability. Today it was short lived however- Theville was destroyed by suicide bombing. However I don't feel it was an intentional suicide attack of the airbase but rather someone switching plane and bombload blowing as it despawned (which happened all the time at the old Caen airbase). It got blown in just 1 bombload and we couldn't get our bombers anymore

If you are going to abandon a plane on the ground, salvo the bombload unarmed before you do so. For some reason the AI is arming the bombs and dropping before they despawn. I have found a fix for this and can send it to Bliss asap. When a human player exits the a/c it will disable all electrical systems and AI will not be allowed to arm bombs or drop them. So no more self destruct AI. :salute:

[DUI]

You might want to send it to SOW as well - there was a blue bomber last Sunday which exploded on the ground and triggered the bomb-load on airfield script. :D

[trademe900]

Devastating. Happened again. We had 6 Ju88s lined up for a raid when some guy came over to us and dropped his entire bombload, killing us and the valuable Theville spawn point. Had our blood boiling, didn't want to commute from Caen after that. Looking forward to having Theville last more than 5 minutes with the fix.

[Spinal Tap]

This map is really becoming frustrating. 7 88s lined up, some guy noses over and despawns, his bombs drop and boom. Raid ruined. The map has lots of issues, I think it should be taken out of circulation and rebeta tested until it's fixed. I'm sure it could be fixed quickly, and loads of people would be willing to help out.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

This map is really becoming frustrating. 7 88s lined up, some guy noses over and despawns, his bombs drop and boom. Raid ruined. The map has lots of issues, I think it should be taken out of circulation and rebeta tested until it's fixed. I'm sure it could be fixed quickly, and loads of people would be willing to help out.

There's no way to beta test somebody being a tool.

[DUI]

Sorry guys, the first exploding Ju 88 was mine. For some reason it lost its wings during taxiing. I still do not know what happened - quite sure that I did not hit any object:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsSjVY6iXbs

The second exploding Ju 88 was the one which my exploding bombs had damaged before. :(

Next time I will salvo my unarmed bombs before leaving the plane - as Gruber recommended.

P.S. Of course, when I left the plane the bombs were unarmed and also stored safely in the bomb bay...

[Spinal Tap]

Sorry guys, the first exploding Ju 88 was mine. For some reason it lost its wings during taxiing. I still do not know what happened - quite sure that I did not hit any object:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsSjVY6iXbs

The second exploding Ju 88 was the one which my exploding bombs had damaged before. :(

Next time I will salvo my unarmed bombs before leaving the plane - as Gruber recommended.

Cheers for coming clean DUI. But why didn't you tell us while the mission was running? Would have saved a lot of aggravation.

[DUI]

I did. After the first surprise I immediately wrote a lot of text in the chat. I told you twice that I did not had my armed bombs dropped and that it must have been the AI afterwards.

Do not make me upload this part of the video as well. Not the most pleasant experience to destroy your own airfield and other planes as well... :confused!:

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

Don't worry about it, DUI. It was an honest mistake. This is quite a different scenario then what was originally posted.

I've sent the files to Bliss to fix the AI issue. When he has time to update the server it shouldn't be an issue going forward unless somebody does it deliberately.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Hey DUI, could you please stop killing our own bombers? :)

If you do that again I won't fly with you for a week hahaha

[Spinal Tap]

I did. After the first surprise I immediately wrote a lot of text in the chat. I told you twice that I did not had my armed bombs dropped and that it must have been the AI afterwards.

Do not make me upload this part of the video as well. Not the most pleasant experience to destroy your own airfield and other planes as well... :confused!:

Oh, that was you typing in the text box! Fair enough then, and by the way Hans thanks for fixing this.

[EG14_Marcast]

Could it be possible to avoid that the bombs of a despawning bomber on the airfield exploded on the ground? Tonight one of us did it accidentally and he destroyed Theville :doh::)

[trademe900]

Could it be possible to avoid that the bombs of a despawning bomber on the airfield exploded on the ground? Tonight one of us did it accidentally and he destroyed Theville :doh::)

He just said above he's made a fix for it mate. Just waiting to be processed and integrated with the ATAG server.

[RebelSqurl]

Lately, we've also noticed that the usual AI raids haven't been spawning. Glitch, or are they temporarily disabled?

[SoW Reddog]

Should be very simple to code that friendly fire of any type (deliberate or accidental) doesn't count for airfield targets.

[EG14_Marcast]

He just said above he's made a fix for it mate. Just waiting to be processed and integrated with the ATAG server.

Oops, sorry...I typed it just before going to bed. This game is very addictive but I begin to miss my sleep :-)

[SoW Reddog]

Lately, we've also noticed that the usual AI raids haven't been spawning. Glitch, or are they temporarily disabled?

If you read the latest release notes, you'll see that he's removed all AI raids from his missions.

[AKA_Blasto]

S!~
Its unfortunate that "If you read the latest release notes, you'll see that he's removed all AI raids from his missions. ."
What is the purpose of removing raids in a bomber map? Maybethey'll remove the Allied shipping also- and we can lose everyone but the hard-cores
to boredom. Some decisions are made with curious motives- perhaps the bombers screw up the server? Littlestone map throws out incorrect raid call-outs- they never come- save the two small initial 87' and 88' groups. Now the Isle of Wight map has no bombers? Whats the point? Just flow low over the Allied shipping- waiting to get picked off? Hmm..curious decisions. I sure love blasting human Bf109 pilots- and the healthy mix of AI thrown at England- maybe there's a resonable explantion for removing bombers. Like I said- remove the helpless Allied shipping also- and even things up! :coolio:

S!~ AKA_Blasto

[ATAG_Lolsav]

@Blasto, on this same thread the map maker has explained why they were removed. Its a experiment.

Now go read the reasons why and be a good boy :)

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

1) I was told today the bomber fix was applied. Abandoned bombers on the ground should not jettison their bombs. Deliberately bombing your own airfield still does damage.

2) Removal of AI bombers was discussed here: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8839

The ATAG server operator agrees that the AI are causing problems with higher player counts. The choices were to either reduce the human player count to accommodate the AI or remove the AI and possibly increase the human player count. More humans are flying bombers than ever before and 4.3 adds many features that will increase those numbers. The decision was to remove the AI and results were a stable server last weekend on the non AI maps. Don't know what the ships have to do with AI but they are anything but helpless in 4.3 with the improved flak.

[ATAG_Colander]

In short:
Every non-static in the game will use bandwith to replicate and CPU to calculate movements.

[SoW Reddog]

The decision was to remove the AI and results were a stable server last weekend on the non AI maps.

Was the server also stable on the AI maps?

[RebelSqurl]

1) I was told today the bomber fix was applied. Abandoned bombers on the ground should not jettison their bombs. Deliberately bombing your own airfield still does damage.

2) Removal of AI bombers was discussed here: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8839

The ATAG server operator agrees that the AI are causing problems with higher player counts. The choices were to either reduce the human player count to accommodate the AI or remove the AI and possibly increase the human player count. More humans are flying bombers than ever before and 4.3 adds many features that will increase those numbers. The decision was to remove the AI and results were a stable server last weekend on the non AI maps. Don't know what the ships have to do with AI but they are anything but helpless in 4.3 with the improved flak.

Thank you for recapping the logic behind the decision, Hans, and for referencing the original thread. I very much appreciate the work the mission makers do, and I certainly prefer having stable servers to laggy ones! My only concern was, as Blasto indicated, the lack of action when there are relatively few players (e.g., 50 or less) on the server during the mission. It can sometimes make for a long map, but that's more a function of when the map turns, I suppose.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

v1.3 changelog:

- Added a 3 m/s (6 knot) wind from the SE.
- Added a wind sock at every spawn point in line with the way the boards will face. The wind sock indicates the start of the runway.
- Added an air raid siren at every spawn point.
- Cleaned up airfield spawns since the little hangars were removed in TF 4.3.
- Scaled back AAA in France & England due TF 4.3 flak accuracy improvements.

[EG14_Marcast]

Tonight again some Blue bomber hit his own targets and closed the map in about 30 min.. I'm absolutely sure as I was flying with Reds and we were all 4 Blenheims flying together while all the targets were destroyed, just at the beginning of the map. There was no other Red bomber.:grrr:

[ATAG_Naz]

Hi Marcast

That's not completely accurate mate as I was also on and I was checking netstats etc. when the suspicions were raised. There were other Blenheims on the red team (9 in total at the time the first few objectives were hit). It did seem that the speed of objectives being hit as compared to distances and possible bomb loads for Blenneims did not tally up (but I am no expert) so the suspicion still remains ... But your group of 4 Blenheims were not the only group on the map.

I had/have my suspicions as well, but I can't confirm either way yet. In any event, should anyone be so selfish as to purposely self bomb it is, in my view, extremely selfish and arrogant and I would like to see any perpetrators spend some time unable to join the server (and if in a squad, their squad mates as well might want to think about such behaviour). This is not an official ATAG policy or anything, just my opinion.

:salute:

[ATAG_Freya]

:grrr: I can't believe this still happens. Get a screenshot of netstats next time! Hopefully heads will roll. The dirty buggers!

Edit: didn't see Naz's post when I wrote this, but still...we got to catch it IF it is happening, somehow!


. In any event, should anyone be so selfish as to purposely self bomb it is, in my view, extremely selfish and arrogant and I would like to see any perpetrators spend some time unable to join the server

+1

[ATAG_Naz]

I have my flight recorded with views of the netstats.

:thumbsup:

[EG14_Marcast]

Hi Marcast

That's not completely accurate mate as I was also on and I was checking netstats etc. when the suspicions were raised. There were other Blenheims on the red team (9 in total at the time the first few objectives were hit). It did seem that the speed of objectives being hit as compared to distances and possible bomb loads for Blenneims did not tally up (but I am no expert) so the suspicion still remains ... But your group of 4 Blenheims were not the only group on the map.


I thought we were alone, but it's the same: the map had just started and we were by the Isle of Wight heading south when it all began, nobody could have been already over France.

[Vlerkies]

Tonight again some Blue bomber hit his own targets and closed the map in about 30 min
My only regret is I did not think about doing it first. :devilish:

[ATAG_Naz]

... the map had just started and we were by the Isle of Wight heading south when it all began, nobody could have been already over France.

Yep, that makes sense to me too

[9./JG52 Mindle]

I was flying Blue, taxiing in a JU88 with several others a couple of weeks ago.

An 88 rolled up into the group and dropped bombs and exited plane before they exploded.

The talk on teamspeak was it is common on this map for some who do not like it to take out their own airfields etc to roll the map. Unfair on those of us who do like it, great opportunity for longer bombing raids etc. It's not all about furballing.

Needless to say the other blues on channel, especially those of us trying to put a large raid together, were NOT happy.

[ATAG_Snapper]

I was flying Blue, taxiing in a JU88 with several others a couple of weeks ago.

An 88 rolled up into the group and dropped bombs and exited plane before they exploded.

The talk on teamspeak was it is common on this map for some who do not like it to take out their own airfields etc to roll the map. Unfair on those of us who do like it, great opportunity for longer bombing raids etc. It's not all about furballing.

Needless to say the other blues on channel, especially those of us trying to put a large raid together, were NOT happy.

Agree completely.

We're looking into it. Players that resort to bombing their own targets would be happier playing on another server. More importantly, the other players would be.

[DUI]

I was flying Blue, taxiing in a JU88 with several others a couple of weeks ago.

An 88 rolled up into the group and dropped bombs and exited plane before they exploded. [...]

You might refer to this unpleasant incident (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7390&p=102258&viewfull=1#post102258).

As in this case I would expect that a lot of the experienced "blue destroyed their own targets" happens by mistake. If you leave a damaged bomber on the airfield before dropping your (unarmed) bombs the AI will arm and drop them onto the airfield automatically. I think hardly anyone knows or - in the heat of the battle - forgets about it.

About the other (rather soft) blue targets on the map: I think it is not a problem for Blenheims to cross the Channel within 30 minutes. Like on all other maps more and more reds seem to have discovered the fascination of flying a Blenheim lately.

Edit: Just saw and remembered that the new AI fix that Gruber added should prevent AI controlled bombers from dropping their bombs on their own airfield.

[9./JG52 Mindle]

Could well be.

I think those online at the time were unsure whether it was an error, AI or intentional. They just commented on the frequency of this happening on this particular map. Who knows?

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

Seemed odd to me last night looking at the Netstats and listening in to the Blenny guys regards the bombing of blue targets. Something seemed suspicious and the map rolled very quickly!

This mission would benefit from some form of scripting that prevents players from attacking their own targets.

[9./JG52 Mindle]

Being very, very far from an 'ace' dogfighter, i quite enjoy these bigger maps, if they last long enough.

A chance to spend some quality time climbing to altitude, dodge the fighters during ingress to target and escaping to make it all the way home again.

A different experience. But this takes time to complete. No good if the map rolls after half an hour, barely over target then.:ind:

[EG14_Marcast]

As in this case I would expect that a lot of the experienced "blue destroyed their own targets" happens by mistake. If you leave a damaged bomber on the airfield before dropping your (unarmed) bombs the AI will arm and drop them onto the airfield automatically. I think hardly anyone knows or - in the heat of the battle - forgets about it.

Edit: Just saw and remembered that the new AI fix that Gruber added should prevent AI controlled bombers from dropping their bombs on their own airfield.

Dui, it may happens once by mistake, but it's just impossible that 4 targets (included a radar station) are destroyed in 15 min. in that way. And Reds may also have thousands of bombers, but they don't have jets. They need time to reach targets.

[Mastiff]

I like the mission, but why can the 109 pilots get an air start at 10,000 feet and then over the top of England in our back field waiting for us to climb out? not fair in my Opinion.

give us an air start equal to the distance and altitude that they have.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

what air spawn is that?

[Tonka]

Been away from ATAG and CoD for quite some time, but just flown a long mission on this map and wanted to say thanks. Its a great map for long range bombing missions, and the locations make a nice change too.

Cheers. S!

[Chuck_Owl]

Tonight again some Blue bomber hit his own targets and closed the map in about 30 min.. I'm absolutely sure as I was flying with Reds and we were all 4 Blenheims flying together while all the targets were destroyed, just at the beginning of the map. There was no other Red bomber.:grrr:

I remember being there and noticing the same. There might have been 9 blennies available, but at least 4 of us were still mid-channel when the third german airfield blew up. So it's mathematically impossible that those 3 airfields were blown up by 5 Blennies in a single run.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

I like the mission, but why can the 109 pilots get an air start at 10,000 feet and then over the top of England in our back field waiting for us to climb out? not fair in my Opinion.

give us an air start equal to the distance and altitude that they have.

Airspawn is 2000 meters and its a good 10+ minute flight to the Isle of Wight never mind the mainland.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

My only regret is I did not think about doing it first. :devilish:

Don't fly it then if you don't like tha map. Plenty of other servers.

[Otyg]

If it's the night I think it's. Me and afton flew Blenheims also. we flew low over the channel and hit a airfield (can't remember it's name but it's just south from the spawn point) and then 2 other targets where destroyed.
I recall people talked about it in chat.

So there was more then 4 Blenheims in the air. IF it's the same evening I remember.
But Blenheims have 4(?) bombs and the way the dmg was done was a steady tick of small dmg. Much like when you bomb in ju88.
But I don't know.

Can you scroll the netstats somehow?

[LuseKofte]

I love flying Heinkels on this map, you get time to climb at altitude. Time to get a cup of coffee and chat with the boys while you navigate. It is fatal to meet opposition since you get a long flight home http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/blog.php?userid=1887
You get help and support on the way. I love all parts of this map, the targets are suitable for all kind of bombers and the fight are fierce

[trademe900]

Dude I'm gonna drag you outta that friggin Heinkel myself one day and throw you into a Ju88 haha! Big wing level bombing raids with the boys in Ju88s are the only way! Just kidding, I really like flying Heinkel too.

[RebelSqurl]

I noticed three He-111 fliers listed on this map last night, but didn't see any in the air. You boys must've been up really high, above all the fighter action! I trust the view was great from up there.

[ATAG_Naz]

If it's the night I think it's. Me and afton flew Blenheims also. we flew low over the channel and hit a airfield (can't remember it's name but it's just south from the spawn point) and then 2 other targets where destroyed.
I recall people talked about it in chat.

So there was more then 4 Blenheims in the air. IF it's the same evening I remember.
But Blenheims have 4(?) bombs and the way the dmg was done was a steady tick of small dmg. Much like when you bomb in ju88.
But I don't know.

Can you scroll the netstats somehow?

Hi Otyg

It was that same mission mate ... the earliest targets were hit when more than one group of Blenheims were on the server (9 or so on the map at that time) and I believe you were amongst the successful pilots (well done :thumbsup:)...but the last 2 or so targets were destroyed when there were only the one group of Blenheims on the server, all of whom were on TS with each other and had not arrived at the targets to do any bombing when those targets were destroyed.

All rather selfish, disrespectful and just plain sad behaviour by anyone involved in self bombing; wasting the time of fellow fliers who had taken the time to form up and embark on the long journey across the channel.

We are watching.

:salute:

[LuseKofte]

Dude I'm gonna drag you outta that friggin Heinkel myself one day and throw you into a Ju88 haha! Big wing level bombing raids with the boys in Ju88s are the only way! Just kidding, I really like flying Heinkel too.

Well I wanted to ask you guys about teaming up in ATAG server, I am in a unit for campaign but not on ATAG. I flied with Marcast Rollingstoned you and Godfather. Love doing it in any plane.

You guys are kind of like me in this sim.

[EG14_Marcast]

Well I wanted to ask you guys about teaming up in ATAG server, I am in a unit for campaign but not on ATAG. I flied with Marcast Rollingstoned you and Godfather. Love doing it in any plane.

You guys are kind of like me in this sim.

Lately I'm flying more and more the He111. Ready to team up whenever you want :salute:

[Otyg]

Hi Otyg

It was that same mission mate ... the earliest targets were hit when more than one group of Blenheims were on the server (9 or so on the map at that time) and I believe you were amongst the successful pilots (well done :thumbsup:)...but the last 2 or so targets were destroyed when there were only the one group of Blenheims on the server, all of whom were on TS with each other and had not arrived at the targets to do any bombing when those targets were destroyed.

All rather selfish, disrespectful and just plain sad behaviour by anyone involved in self bombing; wasting the time of fellow fliers who had taken the time to form up and embark on the long journey across the channel.

We are watching.

:salute:

Thanks! First flight in a Blenheim. It ended in flames but got the bombs on target.

And yes it's really childish to go bombing the homebase

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

v1.4 changelog:
- Added Frontlines script by LG1_Vogler.
- Reviewed AAA placement.
- Add light MG AA defenses to all spawn points (Zwillingssockel36).
- Removed Theville as a target and replaced with Crepon.

[trademe900]

v1.4 changelog:

- Removed Theville as a target and replaced with Crepon.

This is excellent news!

[EG14_Marcast]

This is excellent news!

I liked the idea of Theville as a target...the Reds could force back Blue bombers to take off only from Caen losing time and making them more difficult to reach targets. Also Ford or Shoreham could be set as targets on the other side to make it fair. Anyway, this is one of the best maps. We had a nice mission Wednesday with three He111s (me, Spinal and Godfather) escorted by a pair of 109s (I don't remember the names, sorry), intercepted by a Spitfire south of the Isle of Wight at 5000 m. but still able to reach Portsmouth and drop. Great fun!

[trademe900]

I liked the idea of Theville as a target...the Reds could force back Blue bombers to take off only from Caen losing time and making them more difficult to reach targets. Also Ford or Shoreham could be set as targets on the other side to make it fair. Anyway, this is one of the best maps. We had a nice mission Wednesday with three He111s (me, Spinal and Godfather) escorted by a pair of 109s (I don't remember the names, sorry), intercepted by a Spitfire south of the Isle of Wight at 5000 m. but still able to reach Portsmouth and drop. Great fun!

I see what you're saying Marcast but it's already pretty far from Theville mate! Caen is just... well, I personally think it's far too far if the needed bomb tonnage is the same. The Theville bomber spawn was a massive positive change for this map, much needed for many of us. I guarantee if Theville was knocked out then the map would just be a stale-mate 'time out' result in all but the most populated days of play.

Great to hear about the fun in the Heinkels. Did ya get all 6000kg of bombs on target and destroy the port? Spinal was leading with the Lotfe?

[Spinal Tap]

I see what you're saying Marcast but it's already pretty far from Theville mate! Caen is just... well, I personally think it's far too far if the needed bomb tonnage is the same. The Theville bomber spawn was a massive positive change for this map, much needed for many of us. I guarantee if Theville was knocked out then the map would just be a stale-mate 'time out' result in all but the most populated days of play.

Great to hear about the fun in the Heinkels. Did ya get all 6000kg of bombs on target and destroy the port? Spinal was leading with the Lotfe?

No, Marcast lead that mission, did an excellent job. GF was moaning about the "slow ass heinkels" but i think secretly he enjoyed it. In any case, I agree with marcast that the blues should get one more objective, since the reds really have no chance of winning if sides are even and no one is bombing their own targets.

[LuseKofte]

Not only is the Heinkel better at its job, it can survive a fighter attack. Best Bomber in this game for sure

[Spinal Tap]

Not only is the Heinkel better at its job, it can survive a fighter attack. Best Bomber in this game for sure

I would agree that after the new patch the 88 is not what it once was. The Heinkel is great for really close formation flying, and for bigger raids it is absolutely the way to go.

[trademe900]

I appreciate the heinkel's strengths and it's a great looking airframe, however I will still take the 2400kg bombload any day fellas.

[Tonka]

Having a great battle on the Kanalkampf map currently, i wonder if a couple of things could be looked at though please?

Westhampnett Airfield is awash with bad spawn points. It seems that when you spawn at some points you cannot move at all without the aircraft bouncing up into the air.

The <rr has the bug where the first time it empties your fuel tank in this map, and using a percentage figure does not seem to work at all. You have to use the <rr command, <rr60 (or whatever %) does not work.

Many thanks.

:salute: