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View Full Version : Scissors! - Or how to survive in a 109 low and slow



Bewolf
Dec-11-2013, 06:47
Ok, this has been mentioned a couple of times already, but I think it is a good idea to get some more details on this for the unlucky 109 driver that finds himself, through a mistake or simple misjudgement, slow and low.

So, you have just flown for an hour over the British coast without getting any kind of contact. Mr. Tommy can't be bothered to come up to play with you at your strenghs or you simply have bad luck. Bored out, you decide to make a low pass over an english field to get at least a couple hits before going home rather frustrated at this waste of time. You come down, make your pass, turn to check et voila...Spitfire on your tail, usually called Happy*** or ***Dutch, who appear to have made lurking near their field grabbing a bored out 109 driver an art form.
Dive...and you crash into the ground. Climb, those 303s will climb faster. Run, 303s will outrun you. Turn, the Spitfire pilot will get a mad grin on his face as you just made his evening. All in all a rather suboptimal situation.

However, in a low speed turning dogfight, natural Spitfire territory, the 109 still has some advantages which, if used correctly, gives you a, if you know what to do even a good, fighting chance. It requires however:

a) really good situational awareness. Pretty impossible without TrackIR.
b) you need to know the 109 in an out, especially at critical speeds

As a general rule, you won't outrun a Spit behind you unless you already have a good deal of speration, same goes to climbing. You also won't outurn him. The only option is to turn his energy against him. To translate: You need him to overshoot in one way or another. However, the more trigger happy the Spit is, the better your chances.

Now, what are the 109s advantages at low speed?

a) The 109 rolls better then the Spit at all speeds.
b) The 109 has better acceleration.
c) The 109 slows down faster. (these three are MAJOR and way underrated advantages in any kind of dogfight. Think 190D vs.51D)

You must make this work for you. Remember however, you are a sitting duck during this time, so even one more Spit or Hurricane and you most probably are toast.

So now for the trick.
1. Once you find a Spitfire behind you within firing distance, lower your flaps just a few notches. Just press the button for a second or two. This will give you a tad more lift, enough hopefully to make your low speed maneuvers a little bit more safe.

2. Next, start a turn and make it progressivly steeper. This appears counterintuitive given the better turn rate of the Spitfire, but stay with me here for a moment.

3. While you do this turn, cut throttle. Not too much at a time, because a good Spit driver will notice your propellerl spin decreasing and will compensate himself. However, the turning in itself will break down the 109s speed more then the Spitfire's, which has better energy retention. Once you see him maneuvering into fireing position, make the turn even harder and drop a bit towards the ground so he can't get a good firing solution while you are under his nose. If he tracks you down the following role will also be longer for him. This is the most dangerous moment which decides between survival, even victory, and imminent death.
If you survive this and chances are good if you manage to throw his aim, however, chances rise much in your favor.

4. After the Spitfire fired, he most likely will move from inside your turn circle to outside of it as your angle towards him has been greatly increased. He will compensate for that by turning hard into you again. But within that short moment when his angle is greatest to you, when he is farthest out, you then need to quickly reverse your turn. Push the stick to the limit, use your rudders, get around as quickly as possible while pushing the engine to it's limits, give it everything you have, emergency power included. IMPORTANT: change your altitude, higher or lower based on your best judgement at the moment, else he will just wait until you fly right through his gunsight.

5. Because you can roll faster then the Spit, while also slowing down more quickly, the Spitfire pilot will now have trouble reversing his own direction to follow you. You are already flying towads him while he is still rolling. Once he does, repeat the process and roll into his flightpath again, but NEVER, I repeat, NEVER on exactly the same plain as before. With a bit of luck you can make the kill here already while he crosses YOUR nose in the end.
But eventually, if you got a pro, this rolling and turning will result in the scissors slowly changing into a continoues barrel role with the Spitfire "above" you, relative not to the ground but to your own aircraft in any given position towards the ground. Here the 109 has the advantage, as it's acceleration, not so much aerodynamics, are "pulling" the aircraft around and keep it in the air. Now you have several options:

a) continue this maneuver. Try to pepper him should he maneuver into your flight path. With abit of luck the Spit driver is so used to just turning he does not know how to deal with this and makes mistakes, giving you the opportunity to get behind him.

b) If your opponent knows what he does, you can continue regardless if you feel confident enough, the 109 is seriosuly capable in this kind of maneovering, even vs. the Spit.
But if you had enough and the opportunity arises when the angle to the Spit grows large enough, continue the turn but lose it gradually to gain energy, retract flaps, level out and go for it. With a bit of luck seperatiojn now is large enough to get away.

I'd personally advise to go for the kill, it's safer. He will be thirsty for blood now that he is behind you again and with a lot of survival instincts triggered.

In all of this propper judgement of energy both of your and the enemy plane is most important. There are more variables here, but those are based on gut feeling only eventually. It requires alot of training and routine to pull it off succeefully. And as said before, add only one other enemy fighter here and your chances drop dramatically.

Hope I could explain this good enough to give some new 109 pilots a bit more confidence in their flying. There are no desperate situations, just desperate pilots.
And IF you pull it off succesfully, it is you flying home with a big grin on your face. ;)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-11-2013, 07:06
I should post a "how to beat the scissors" reply... ;)

The key is this section here;
4. After the Spitfire fired, he most likely will move from inside your turn circle to outside of it as your angle towards him has been greatly increased.

Spitfire pilots should quickly learn this little scenario, and learn what do to about it.

Bewolf
Dec-11-2013, 07:07
I should post a "how to beat the scissors" reply... ;)

By all means, go ahead. After I revealed that little 109 trick it's just fair to reveal yours :thumbsup:
Obviously most Spit drivers go in for the quick kill relying on their percieved turning advantage. And as a lot of 109 pilots do not know how to react, they have good reason for doing so. Flying the Spit like the 109 in such a situation like doing a high yoyo....and the 109 is toast.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-11-2013, 07:49
Flying the Spit like the 109 in such a situation like doing a high yoyo....and the 109 is toast.

And there is your answer, but you knew this already.

The spitfire pilot should slam the throttle to max, and use his superior energy (the 109 is scissoring after all, and you've already stated that the 109 pilot is trying to make the spitfire overshoot) to go vertical.


Overshooting is nothing to be scared of, provided you conserve the energy advantage.

Bewolf
Dec-11-2013, 08:00
And there is your answer, but you knew this already.

The spitfire pilot should slam the throttle to max, and use his superior energy (the 109 is scissoring after all, and you've already stated that the 109 pilot is trying to make the spitfire overshoot) to go vertical.


Overshooting is nothing to be scared of, provided you conserve the energy advantage.

*nods* exactly and a good Spit pilot will know when to do what. However, it all comes down to timing. Reducing thrust gradually and not too sudden in the 109 is there to lure the Spit pilot into a false sense of security in his approach. If the Spit initiates the high yoyo too early, the 109 driver still has time to push the throttle again and turn into the climing aircraft. If he initiates too late, the 109 can just go on and seperate on the plain waiting for the next opportunity while the Spit just sacrificed a good deal of energy which the 109s better accel can abuse. That is why observing the Spitfire behind you and what hes does is so important. There are lots of small windows of opportunity within a dogfight. The art is to recongize them and act accordingly.

In most cases there is no time to think something through, though, one has to act on gut feeling alone. The only way to get there is training and routine.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Dec-11-2013, 08:10
There are lots of small windows of opporunity within a dogfight. The art is the recongize them and act accordingly.
In most cases there is no time to think something through, though, one has to act on gut feeling alone. The only way to get there is training and routine.

so true!
This is why repeating the same thing over and over might work to begin with, but it will get you killed eventually.

Feeling/ reading the fight, as well as having a "play-book" of set-pieces up one's sleeve is important. It takes a long time learning how to balance these two aspects.. if any of us every really do learnt.. I kind fancy that I just stumble on the solution by chance most times ;)

ATAG_Naz
Dec-11-2013, 08:28
I'm finding this fascinating gents....good discussion, thanks:salute:

SoW Reddog
Dec-11-2013, 08:58
Good stuff. I get suckered into scissors with 109's when I fly solo far too easily for two reasons, the first is the 109 pilot is better than me and I just don't notice the speed drop off as described above till too late, and secondly, I instinctively shy away from high closing speed gun solutions because I invariably miss and/or crash into the bloody target. Voluntarily losing my E to get reliable hits on target is not a good survival tactic.

When flying with Phil however I suddenly improve a) confidence because he's "reading" the fight, not me, and b) survivability because at every opportunity he's telling me what I'm doing wrong. I'm slowly learning but it is a steep curve I'm on now.

Black
Dec-11-2013, 09:15
How to survive in a 109 low and slow? You simply don't unless it's your lucky day :-P

ATAG_Lewis
Dec-11-2013, 10:27
Good Post...~S~

Bewolf
Dec-11-2013, 18:33
so true!
This is why repeating the same thing over and over might work to begin with, but it will get you killed eventually.

Feeling/ reading the fight, as well as having a "play-book" of set-pieces up one's sleeve is important. It takes a long time learning how to balance these two aspects.. if any of us every really do learnt.. I kind fancy that I just stumble on the solution by chance most times ;)

Jup, most maneuvers come down to some kind of improvisation based on a set piece or pieces that seemlessly flow into each other. And sometimes it's just improvisation. Doing this in a 109F in the old Il2 was pure bliss =)

However, this thread was supposed to be a heads up for new 109 drivers, not an RAF pilot's briefing regarding Luftwaffe tactics :)

No.401_Wolverine
Dec-11-2013, 19:25
However, this thread was supposed to be a heads up for new 109 drivers, not an RAF pilot's briefing regarding Luftwaffe tactics :)

Hey, don't knock it. The better EVERYONE is, the better the dogfighting is. Not everyone just wants to win, some people like a really good fight :)

Bewolf
Dec-12-2013, 11:41
Hey, don't knock it. The better EVERYONE is, the better the dogfighting is. Not everyone just wants to win, some people like a really good fight :)

Yeah, I can relate. Pity it hardly ever happens on the ATAG server, too much interference :devilish:

Dieter
Dec-14-2013, 04:27
Danke sehr BEWOLF Es sind nur gute ratschläge :)

rollingstoned
Dec-15-2013, 16:50
Wow excellent post Bewolf. This is the exact method i use to preserve myself down low where i fight 90% of the time in my 109. Its taken a long time to perfect this art and ive never been able to articulate it as you have here.
Im not sure many novices will understand this because it requires such intimate knowledge and feel of the the 109's motor and flight characteristics to understand why these things work. Excellent post and very accurate info, GOOD WORK!

indyscout
Dec-24-2013, 05:26
Going to put a link to this in my guide for a more in depth analysis. Hope its okay with you :D

hnbdgr
Feb-28-2014, 09:33
Excellent guide, is there a video of the maneuver that could be examined? For those who like to learn visually i suppose:thumbsup:

WindWpn
Feb-28-2014, 10:14
How to survive in a 109 low and slow? You simply don't unless it's your lucky day :-P

OR, good RAF backup coordinated on TS!

~S~
wind

hans022
Mar-02-2014, 21:16
Very nice..thanks for sharing..
http://watchfree.me/75/w.png

jaydee
Mar-03-2014, 02:51
Good post bewulf. I am a 90% Spit flyer but I do enjoy the 109(I just cant fly it well in combat). Every time I have been jumped low and slow, flying a 109,ive always thought "that's what I get for getting lo and slow !...and always panicked !
Offline practicing now ~S~

Vlerkies
Mar-11-2014, 05:26
Nice post Bewolf :thumbsup:

I know the original post provides detail to 'if' you get caught, but the first rule of '109 fight club' is that you don't go low and slow.


Bored out, you decide to make a low pass over an english field to get at least a couple hits before going home rather frustrated at this waste of time. You come down, make your pass, turn to check et voila...Spitfire on your tail
To add, don't turn to look then you wont be slow.
If you have, in your frustration, dived down toward an airfield you really should have good IAS upward of 500kmh. I promise you none of the Spits and the Hurricaines on the TnB merry go round down there will be at that speed, so you should be able to exit straight out the other side and extend away with ease.
If you see while extending someone trying to close in on you before you exit from you 0900-0300 position (cut the corner on you), turn gently towards the threat to carry your energy and make them turn round. They wont catch you.

Roblex
Mar-11-2014, 08:04
Makes me wonder how I managed to shoot down one of the most deadly 109 pilots in the game by doing the same to him i.e. scissoring in my spit until he passed in front of my guns (after two changes) and I damaged enough him with a snapshot to be able to finish him 10 seconds later. After more than 20 years of online combat I am still a *really* hopeless dogfighter, no false modesty there :D

Maybe the answer is that the top 109 pilots are used to precision B&Z and are a bit out of their comfort zone when boredom/greed/overconfidence makes them stay down to get that guaranteed kill that just managed to evade their pass :-P

Vlerkies
Mar-11-2014, 09:04
when boredom/greed/overconfidence makes them stay down to get that guaranteed kill that just managed to evade their pass :-P
As a mediocre 109 driver with crappy aim this is the story of my life ^^^^

We also want to dogfight sometimes, but the odds are stacked against us proper in that scenario.
The temptation is so great to TnB, we know its wrong, but :guilty:

Roblex
Mar-11-2014, 09:44
As a mediocre 109 driver with crappy aim this is the story of my life ^^^^

We also want to dogfight sometimes, but the odds are stacked against us proper in that scenario.
The temptation is so great to TnB, we know its wrong, but :guilty:

It is not really a good idea for spitfire pilots to turn & burn either unless they are already low on E but it does not stop me rolling 90 degrees and pulling the stick back as soon as I see a 109 on my tail or bullets flying past my shoulder. I need to condition myself to go vertical while evading if I was already cruising at top speed when attacked. If I was a 109 pilot I would much prefer my victim to blow all his E and flounder around just above stall speed while I climb back up to make another pass :D

vranac
Mar-11-2014, 10:02
As a mediocre 109 driver with crappy aim this is the story of my life ^^^^

We also want to dogfight sometimes, but the odds are stacked against us proper in that scenario.
The temptation is so great to TnB, we know its wrong, but :guilty:

Just make your dogfight to vertical and you'll have advantage even in a close stall fight.Spit and hurri can't hang on the prop like 109. Horizontal is no, no for 109.

Scissors are great when you're bounced by enemy with more or equal E. You can make him bleed his E and than you can extend after that even if you're on 200m alt.
109 accelerates better and with just slight up down movements and little luck you will be able to make distance and turn back into the fight.

Vlerkies
Mar-11-2014, 10:08
It is not really a good idea for spitfire pilots to turn & burn either unless they are already low on E but it does not stop me rolling 90 degrees and pulling the stick back as soon as I see a 109 on my tail or bullets flying past my shoulder. I need to condition myself to go vertical while evading if I was already cruising at top speed when attacked. If I was a 109 pilot I would much prefer my victim to blow all his E and flounder around just above stall speed while I climb back up to make another pass :D

If I understand correctly, from my experience if you are equal energy and top speed and you climb to evade, you will loose that fight in a Spit, not by much but perhaps just enough. You would have much better chance rolling 90 and pulling. 109 wont be able to follow, at top speed.
With you on the RAF plane floundering below while you BnZ, but this takes time, its difficult to get a good firing solution on a plane that is turning on a dime, and you get 2 maybe 3 passes before help arrives for him so yeah, its all white knuckle flying, which is great. :-)
:salute:

Roblex
Mar-11-2014, 12:12
If I understand correctly, from my experience if you are equal energy and top speed and you climb to evade, you will loose that fight in a Spit, not by much but perhaps just enough. You would have much better chance rolling 90 and pulling. 109 wont be able to follow, at top speed.
With you on the RAF plane floundering below while you BnZ, but this takes time, its difficult to get a good firing solution on a plane that is turning on a dime, and you get 2 maybe 3 passes before help arrives for him so yeah, its all white knuckle flying, which is great. :-)
:salute:

I am not saying that a spit will outclimb a 109 that has just B&Z'd it. I am saying that if I am going to take evasive action I should really add a vertical element to avoid burning all my E. If I have just been bounced by a 109 doing 350 mph then he will be just below me drawing away and preparing to climb again so I will not be in any immediate danger and can take the time to turn some of my speed into altitude and reduce the altitude advantage the 109 has. I can still turn & burn when he returns, if appropriate, but the choice is T&B immediately while the 109 is still climbing and not a danger or climb first then T&B. Unless he has a wingman following 5 seconds later (a deadly combination!) then climbing first gives me more options later.

The other option when bounced by a 109 is to lower the nose, turn 45 to 90 degrees (gently to preserve E) and dive away while the 109 is still extending the other way then start a shallow climb. When the 109 realises what has happened and dives after the spit again, the Spit pilot can start a shallow climbing turn just gentle enough for the 109 pilot to believe he can get a guns solution then tighten it up gradually so that by the time the 109 pilot realises he has been suckered and levels out again to re-climb, he has burnt most of his E. Done properly the spit pulls less Gs (because the 109 was trying to follow the same radius or tighter with greater speed) and the 109 can end up turning away with marginally less E than the spit so the spit can scissor back and get on his tail in gun range.

Vlerkies
Mar-11-2014, 12:30
Ahh ok, gotcha now, sounds legit.

:thumbsup:

sw1ive
Mar-11-2014, 13:56
How to survive in a 109 low and slow? You simply don't unless it's your lucky day :-P

How to survive in a 109 low and slow !!!!!!!

answer so fast and so, so ,so so, ..............simple
you don't survive (LOL)
ok... that's a joke

In true low you say low-speed or low-alt


and I need to ask:
How to survive in a spitfire low-speed (120) low-alt (400 feet) and a BF-109 on your 6 (close of you) ?????????
unter of you flat ground or water


Well ???

Pirabee
Mar-17-2014, 11:47
Whether Im flying the 109 or the Spit, anything that pops up on my tail -even a twin engine - usually burns me. It's so darn frustrating. I don't use TrackIR5 so I guess that's half the story, but I really would like a simple solution for a new wing who wishes to find an answer to getting bounced from behind.

For instance, I'd like to hear....(a) make a rule never to go below so-so altitude when bogeys are about....(b) in a 109 with a Spit on your tail, don't turn, only dive or climb provided you have the E to handle a sudden climb....(c) unless planning to make the E/A overshoot, keep your speed at or above 300kph...etcetera etcetera.

Trust me, without sit-awareness dogfighting means certain death. I'm virtually sworn, whether flying Blue or Red kites, to stay with SP until my TrackIR arrives or if in Multiplayer to only fly combat patrols over friendly territory...and always at a good height. And I forbid anyone checking my records

Pirabee.

Catseye
Mar-17-2014, 12:18
How to survive in a 109 low and slow !!!!!!!

and I need to ask:
How to survive in a spitfire low-speed (120) low-alt (400 feet) and a BF-109 on your 6 (close of you) ?????????
unter of you flat ground or water

Well ???

As you said - "You Don't!"

Never get into that situation is the answer. Gotta keep that speed up at all times - 180 plus.

TURK_Can
Mar-17-2014, 12:33
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7n53MfV0nw&list=UUHtCP1qIi03d4igxtyiylIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzv5-29G5wg&list=UUHtCP1qIi03d4igxtyiylIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxygIhjQfw&list=UUHtCP1qIi03d4igxtyiylIQ



I hope these are useful for bf fighters.

TURK_Can

sw1ive
Mar-17-2014, 12:41
As you said - "You Don't!"

Never get into that situation is the answer. Gotta keep that speed up at all times - 180 plus.

Ok ok... that i need !!!

Catseye
Mar-17-2014, 15:30
Ok ok... that i need !!!

sw1ive,
is that your cockpit setup in your pic?

Very nice indeed.

Cats . . .

sw1ive
Mar-17-2014, 16:26
sw1ive,
is that your cockpit setup in your pic?

Very nice indeed.

Cats . . .

Yes link here...
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4645&highlight=show+cockpit

Otyg
Mar-18-2014, 07:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7n53MfV0nw&list=UUHtCP1qIi03d4igxtyiylIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzv5-29G5wg&list=UUHtCP1qIi03d4igxtyiylIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxygIhjQfw&list=UUHtCP1qIi03d4igxtyiylIQ



I hope these are useful for bf fighters.

TURK_Can

Awesome videos. I see what he do but i dont know how he does it. :)