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MajorBorris
Nov-04-2011, 12:07
Welcome to the ATAG server's Ju88 resource page.

The thread has evolved to incorporate many of the Ju88's abilities and with input from some the communities most esteemed Ju88 pilots our knowledge of the Ju88 is growing every day.

Below is a Ju88 quick tutorial.


LOADOUT: Take about 20% fuel and a full bomb load, 18 50kg bay1, 10 50kg bay2, 4 250kg external pylons.

For bombing operations under 1km take the type j bombs/low level (selected bay must be open and bombs armed before dive run).

BOMBS: You must select bay# or all, mode(series/salvo/single), string amount(1-24 or infinite), and distance between bombs(1/5/10 meters depending on target saturation for series) speed(set to 500/600kph for dive, you will need a last second adjustment for speed) your elevation above sea level minus elevation of target above sea level , climb to desired height(3.5km and above to use superchargers but reduce throttle before engage, you have a WEP as well)

Full accuracy needs the use of the IAS TAS conversion chart but not needed on a dive run.

ENGINE START:


1) fuel cock 1 left tank

2) fuel cock 2 right tank

3) throttle idle

4) prop pitch full

5) water/oil rads closed

6) deselect eng 2

7) eng start (sometimes they misfire, if so eng start again)

8 ) deselect eng 1

9) select eng 2

10) eng start

11) select eng 1

12) warm to 40c water temp

13) elevator trim counter clockwise 1 revolution to 12 o'clock (take off position)

14) FLAPS: There are four indents for the flap lever. Set flaps one step up from bottom lever position (Landekl) you will hear them activate, then move the lever one more step up to 0 position when the indicator under the airbrake for flaps reads .6 with the cursor or the second dot down(take off position 25 degrees deflection) The top and bottom positions stow flaps.

TAKE OFF: from a full length concrete runway like tramecourt in the ATAG server. Open water rads and oil rads 30% on taxi, open 100% on takeoff and climb. Spool engines up to 100% throttle/rpm and full pitch with toe breaks deployed, release breaks and focus on a nice straight run with no back or forward yoke pressure(tail will lift on its own) apply slight back pressure(rotate) to the yoke at 180/185 kph (any slower you will stall, faster and you will overspeed tires), gear up on positive rate, throttle back to the yellow mark on manifold ATA pressure indicator/rpm (30 mins in yellow at climb), level out and gain enough speed till you can stow the flaps(200kph or so).

CLIMB: Adjust throttle (about 2km), prop pitch and trim throughout the climb phase to keep manifold pressure 1.25 and rpm2350 and the speed at 250kph for max climb rate (about 30 mins before damage will occur) (remove front gun for better visibility in cockpit)

DIVE: Reduce throttle to 0% prop pitch to 30-50%(rpm under yellow during dive) and water rad 0% and use elevator trim for a nice dive angle or you can use the dive break but it uses a bomb drop mechanism that deploys automatically(it sets trim auto for dive) and pulls you out of dive as well(it's the same system as Ju87 Stuka), angle is steeper but speed is reduced.


That's what it takes to get the 88 started and up in the air on a full real server.

Any additional input, thoughts, opinions, etc is appreciated!


Enjoy!

ChiefRedCloud
Nov-05-2011, 09:00
Thank you very, very much ....... IF we all contribute things such as this, we'll have a deversified AF in no time. Again, thanks. :thumbsup:

Marmus
Jan-04-2012, 12:21
Does anybody know if the following items work in the Ju-88?

1. fuel mixture - I set the keyboard commands, but they do not appear to do anything.

2. fuel cocks #3 to #8 - these are located on a panel on the left wall, next to the undercarriage lever. Each one will switch on and off. Do they work? I know that in the real ju-88, they were used for transferring fuel from tank to tank during long trips. Is this feature modeled?

3. carburetor heater commands - do they do anything? are they needed? future use, maybe?

4. pitot tube heater - do they do anything? are they needed? future use, maybe? or just needed at higher altitudes?

5. level bombing/gyro - I have read in several forums that the gyro is not working in the Ju-88 and needs to be patched. Is this something that was confirmed by 1C? or is it that the system is too complicated and no one has figured it out? I prefer manual level bombing as opposed to the automated level bombing.....does this make a difference in getting level bombing working?

Also, looking for tips on an additional item:
6. trim - as part of 5 above, any hints on getting proper trimming? I was successful in getting nose trimming set, but the bird likes to roll and can't seem to get the aileron or rudder trim set successfully? They seem to fight each other....probably just need some more practice, but wondering if anybody has tips.

Thanks.

MajorBorris
Jan-04-2012, 13:48
Welcome Marmis, Ill try to help but I am learning as I go too : )


1) Auto mixture since ww1 on many German planes. I think its possible to manually do the mix. There is a fuel enricher for start up and such but not modeled as of yet.

2) 1-2 external. 8 rear tank. 6/5 wing tanks. 3 forward tank, use in that order. . the main feeders have no numbers. The Ju 88 will automatically pump for you but if the pump is damaged you have to manually pump the fuel/oil, I haven’t been able to confirm if the manual pump works. With shorter trips and small fuel loads, Im not sure they have fuel but I have noticed once that the No#8 cock auto engaged when I had a leak one time.


3) Fuel injected.

4) Not sure if modeled but I use it when ambient temp reaches 0, Pitot tube’s get air pressure from outside the plane to provide pressure to instruments that use rubber diaphragms for readings like altitude speed etc. If that tube gets clogged by ice the pilot may receive erroneous readings. Modern airliners have crashed from that tube being clogged from ice or even tape.

5) In the last patch it was said that the gyro subroutine was reworked for he111 and Ju88. I don’t know what that means but I think many of us have an idea on how to set up the auto pilot just very few can get it to work on the Ju88 (one time I did on the deck) I would think having the aircraft level will make a huge difference on accuracy. There is a TAS IAS chart in the IL2 manual in your hard drive that is critical as well as the altitude of the target above see level(that’s posted some where for all airfields).

6) Set elevator trim for the phase of flight desired (climb 250kph/cruise320hph), then rudder, then elevator again then aileron.

The Ju88 is a great plane to fly and a lot of fun, if you want to join our ts3 tonight I will be on around 6pm CST. The other folks on ts3 are very helpful as well so feel free to check out ATAG coms anytime :happy

Marmus
Jan-04-2012, 14:43
Thanks for clarifying, MajorBorris!!

1. auto, cool.....but I kinda liked making my B-17 smoke back in IL-2:1946, LOL.

2. OK. I saw the translated pilot notes that discuss the real world fuel tanks, etc.....we will have to see how close it matches!!

3. ahhh...OK.

4. Yup, it may be like a sugar pill, but I will start to use it.

5. I will continue to fiddle with it then......I prefer to use the "Bombsight Table v2" app that I used in IL-2:1946......easier than tables. I may write a similar app for my Droid phone.

6. Thanks for the trim tips.....I have been flying for over 3 years and never really got the hang of trim....I just have a tired hand after most flights.

I have yet to get online with CloD much yet.....just adds to the confusion at this point, LOL. I find navigation in this game ALOT harder than IL-2:1946....

MajorBorris
Jan-04-2012, 15:32
You would be suprised how much you can learn from some of the folks on coms and there generaly fun too:eek:

The satisfaction of defeating live targets is hard to explain but some people's teeth tingle or there heart rates go way up others gyrate there legs at high speed when there all pumped up but in general the competitive nature in many of the pilots fuels half the fun.

Also there are all skill types represented on the coms and all are respected equaly and its a rather casual group so dont feel like you have to gain a certain level of skill before jumping on coms.

As for Navigation I can help you there.

1) Open up the Map and make it as big as you can and pick a starting point and ending point.

2) R click the map.

3) Choose tools.

4) Choose the Protractor symbol and make it highlighted.

5) Click and hold the L mouse over starting point and drag the line to the end point, release L mouse.

6) Click L mouse over the starting point again and drag line due north a little bit and release.

7) The number that is revealed is subtracted from 360 giving the bearing to target.

8) The Ruler gives distance which used with speed can give times, there's a clock on the yoke in the Ju 88.

9) The Flag makes way points that can be used with time and landmarks to reference trip progress or just waypoints:uhoh.

:salute:See ya in the air:salute:

335th_GRAthos
Jan-07-2012, 08:18
...many of us have an idea on how to set up the auto pilot just very few can get it to work on the Ju88

Yeah, I can put my name on this list, no problems setting the ME110 autocourse but no luck with the JU88...

If anybody manages to make it work, I would be grateful!


~S~

PS. If anyone reads German and is interested, I have the (german) explanations for the STUKA attack run in a JU88 (Alfred Price -The Bomber in World War II)

Puppet
Jan-08-2012, 02:44
Simply put, the course hold in the Ju88 does not work because the directional gyro does not work.

That said, some measure of stability has been found from carefully setting the course hold to the nonfunctional gyro. This however is a pain because the values on the course hold(bottom scale) and the values on the gyro(top scale) do not match up perfectly in any of the German aircraft. So, to fly a heading of 300(as read from the gyro)you must actually set the course hold to 290ish in all the German aircraft.

Normally this isn't a big deal as the aircraft will adjust itself for any small variation in heading(that's what the course hold does). However, because the gyro doesn't work, and its very tricky to decide exactly how much difference you need between gyro setting and course hold, the Ju88 will generally not fly straight and level on course hold. Instead it will forever make a small correction to the left or right.

This typically, if left unattended will result in excessive roll and eventually the dreaded "John F. Kennedy, Jr. special" death spiral. The results of which are generally disastrous.

335th_GRAthos
Jan-08-2012, 03:35
Simply put, the course hold in the Ju88 does not work because the directional gyro does not work.

Does not work!? Where is Collander?????? ;)

Pity, I had hoped they had fixed it :(

Thanks for the explanations

~S~

MajorBorris
Jan-09-2012, 08:45
"Reworked bombardier cockpits in aircraft so affected (He. 111 and Ju. 8 to accomodate new Lotfe gyro routines"

Thats from the last patch notes, at the time I thought a fix was in there, guess not.

335th_GRAthos
Jan-18-2012, 16:58
PS. If anyone reads German and is interested, I have the (german) explanations for the STUKA attack run in a JU88 (Alfred Price -The Bomber in World War II)

I realised that you do not understand German from your other post at 1c

Too much work to translate a whole manual but you probably need only parts like the explanation of the sturzflugangriff as shown in the diagram

405


~S~

MajorBorris
Jan-18-2012, 17:28
Thats cool 335th_GRAthos, so are you saying you could translate A-F? Is that from the flight manual?

Thanks for the info!

Dutch
Jan-18-2012, 19:40
Ich habe nur ein bisschen Deutsch, aber es ist von der schul und es ist uber dreissig jahren alt.

So how did I do then? :happy

335th_GRAthos
Jan-19-2012, 04:40
Genau wie du es gesagt hast, ьber dreiЯig Jahre alt...:Grin:

Translation: Yeah, you convinced me, I'll translate ;)


@Major_Borris: The extract is from the book "Combat Development in World War Two: Bomber Aircraft"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Combat-Development-World-War-Two/dp/0853689237/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326966340&sr=1-2
Unfortunately I have the German version

~S~

335th_GRAthos
Jan-19-2012, 09:09
Tell me if you can read the English text I attached:

407

~S~

Dutch
Jan-19-2012, 10:10
'Genau wie du es gesagt hast, ьber dreiЯig Jahre alt...:Grin:'

:laugh1 :uhoh

Das Dokument ist immer noch auf Deutsch. :Grin:

335th_GRAthos
Jan-19-2012, 10:42
Schцne Sch***Яe! :inq:

How about now?

408

MajorBorris
Jan-19-2012, 11:58
Hey thanks GRAthos, yes I see your translation:thumbsup:

MajorBorris
Jan-19-2012, 13:09
That book is not available through amazon usa for now:sad!:

Dutch
Jan-19-2012, 14:17
How about now?

Perfect! Slightly better than my German I feel! :salute:

335th_GRAthos
Jan-19-2012, 17:54
That book is not available through amazon usa for now:sad!:

I would not worry too much, it is an interesting book because it is concentrated on the long view of the bombers development from the pre-war period and up to 1946 but, it has few details on the actual operation of specific aircraft like the page I translated.


~S~

335th_GRAthos
Jan-21-2012, 16:54
MajorBoris take a look at http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=382702#post382702

Apparently the JU88-A4 had a constant rpm system (instead of propeller pitch)...


~S~

MajorBorris
Jan-21-2012, 20:57
:go:Thats realy cool GRAthos:go:

Marmus
Jun-29-2012, 21:36
Anybody have links/guides to do level bombing in the JU-88 now that it is "fixed"?

[EDIT] I found my answer.....here to share. It discusses bomb sight and gyro-compass for the He-111....but the principles should be the same. The Gyro-compass starts about half way through the text.

http://www.242sqn.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2730&sid=4ed2257f5764152c97023f079cc8be3f

I see the making of a video tutorial in my future.

Blackdog_kt
Jun-30-2012, 10:19
I think there's a sticky FAQ thread on the 1c forums where i describe how to do it in a He-111. It's the same thing for the Ju88 as well.

However...

i still haven't tested the bombsights. Up till the last patch, there were some errors in the routine that did the bombsight calculations. I don't know yet if these have been fixed.

To give you a few short pointers, this is how i would do it if everything works correctly:

1) Calibrate directional gyro (DG) before take-off
2) After take-off, adjust power and trim for climb
3) Figure out your heading to the next waypoint (don't forget the magnetic deviation correction: if you need to fly a heading of 210 degrees your compass should read 220 degrees, always add 10)
4) Use the repeater compass (NOT the DG) to mark your waypoint heading. It's the round compass card on the instrument panel with the little plane icon in the middle. It's like a second magnetic compass. I use this one for navigating, because unlike the DG it doesn't drift over time.
5) Adjust your DG again, align the autopilot heading and engage it in the first mode (course steering). The aircraft will rock back and forth a bit and then stabilize. This AP mode controls heading only and makes aileron turns. You can still dive or climb by adjusting your trim and power.

From this point onward, i do all my navigation with the repeater compass. The DG will drift and will need correcting, which will then result in the autopilot correcting your heading based on the difference between DG and commanded heading, etc etc...I find it much simple to just ignore the DG once the autopilot is turned on and just use the whole thing as a turn left/turn right autopilot. I use the repeater compass to navigate and the AP/DG to make the turns.

6) Climb 500-1000 meters above your desired bombing altitude.
7) Getting closer to the target, engage the second autopilot mode (R22).

This mode is like the level stabilizer in the old IL2. It drops the nose and holds wings level. You need to be going at least 300km/h IAS in the He111 and about 350km/h IAS in the Ju88 with this mode, otherwise you lose altitude. That's why you climb above your selected altitude before engaging it, so that the aircraft can have some room to dive and "get on the step" (a nose-down attitude that gives more speed without losing altitude, usually reached after a dive...B17s used this technique too).

In R22 mode, all turns are made with the rudder only. Meaning that it bleeds a lot of airspeed and altitude if you make turns all the time. It's meant for course corrections during the bomb run and aligning the target. If you see you are losing too much altitude, you can switch between the two autopilot modes. Going back to the course steering mode will let you climb a bit, then you can align the target with the R22 mode. Once the target is aligned you can even go back to course steering mode for the rest of the bomb run (as long as you don't need to make any other course corrections, CS mode is working with ailerons and it will throw off your aim in that case).

So you can either attain a high speed and bomb using the R22 mode, or you can switch back to CS mode and bomb at different speeds because in that mode you can trim the elevators. Maybe you'll have a bit of inaccuracy because trimming nose up/down means the fuselage is not completely level, but it won't be too much at lower altitudes.

8) From this point on you fly the aircraft through the bombsight and making left/right turns to align the target.
9) Input your altitude above ground into the bombsight (that is your altitude indicator's value minus the target's altitude above sea level)
10) Input your TAS into the bombsight. The bombsight actually doesn't need TAS, it needs GS (ground speed). But TAS is a good first approximation. If/when we ever have missions with wind and dynamic weather, this will be harder to deal with.
11) Move the crosshairs on the target and engage automation.

If the crosshairs moves below the target, the sight is tracking too fast: reduce your GS setting a bit (the bombsight speed)
If it moves above the target, it is tracking slower than the aircraft is moving: increase your GS setting a bit

12) When the sight can steadily track a point on the ground, you have it calibrated correctly. Just place it on the target again, engage automation, open bomb bays, arm bombs and wait :thumbsup:

I think it's also possible now to move the crosshairs while the automation is on, so we don't have to engage it, make corrections, disengage, recenter the reticule on the target, etc.

Finally, if the target is moving left/right, it's probably because of cross-wind drift. There are controls on the bombsight to account for that too. I'm not sure, but i think you just need to move the crosshairs left or right to stay on the target and the bombsight will take care of the rest.

aus3620
Jul-09-2012, 19:58
Thanks ATAG_MajorBoris and Blackdog_kt for taking the lead with the "learn how to fly the JU88" thread.
A quick note about the autopilot function in the current patch - 1.07.18301.


I thought setting the JU88 auto-pilot would go something like this:
. start engine
. set Repeater Compass to desired course.
. set the Directional Gyro (DG) to desired course.
. take-off and steer aircraft to desired course.
. engage autopilot - course

Expected the two halves of the DG to line up and steer the desired course. Instead got a course way off my setting.

It appears that to make use of the autopilot in the JU88, in this patch, you take the following steps:
. set Repeater and Magnetic to desired course.
. align aircraft to desired course.
. align the "N" on the DG.
. engage autopilot - course.

Obviously this is a bug. The headings on the DG are irrelevant. Only the N is used as an alignment tool.

For more detail and pictures see this link:
http://www.raafsquad.com/cliffs/ju88...1.07.18301.htm

Blackdog_kt
Jul-09-2012, 23:02
That is because you are skipping a step in the process. The DG is the DG, the other half of it is the desired heading: what you command the autopilot to achieve.

I use the repeater/magnetic compass course setter to fly my sorties too, but it has no effect whatsoever on the autopilot and that is correctly modeled. It's just a manual heading to next waypoint reminder, while the autopilot works with gyros (the magnetic instruments have no way to connect and interface with the autopilot device).

What the autopilot uses to fly the aircraft is the offset between DG and the desired heading: it compares the two and makes the necessary turn to match them.

What you need to do is:

1) Read your current heading from the magnetic compass and input it to your DG (to calibrate the DG)
2) Rotate the desired heading compass card to the heading you want to fly.
3) Engage autopilot.

That's how i start it. After a while the DG will drift and you'll need to recalibrate it or you'll get off course because the AP "thinks" that your heading changed (while in reality the DG just drifted).

There are two ways to correct for this.

a) Either you recalibrate your DG or

b) You ignore it after the initial setup and just use the desired heading as a way to command the AP to turn.

I use the second method most of the time. I mark my desired heading with the course setter in the magnetic/repeater compass, calibrate my DG and desired heading, activate the AP and when it starts drifting i just give a tap or two of the keys to make it turn in the other direction, until the course setter is centered in my magnetic compasses.

As you can see there's more than one ways to skin a cat. The DG is not bugged anymore however. To adjust the desired heading you need to map two keys to your control options for the appropriate functions: course autopilot left and right.

Pressing these will only rotate the half of the instrument that displays your desired heading.

I use < and > for this function.
I also use alt < and alt > for the course setter and ctrl <, ctrl > for setting the DG. So everything is mapped to the brackets and it makes things simple because they already look like left/right pointing arrows :thumbsup:

aus3620
Jul-10-2012, 05:04
When I have auto-pilot engaged, no matter what the course, the DG always has "N" over "N" after its course tuning takes effect.

You are saying this is the correct reading/display for the DG on autopilot?
I thought the upper band on the DG would indicate 315 degrees. Just like to confirm "N" over "N" is correct.
Understand there is no link between the magnetic compass/repeater compass and the DG. Of course we can manually drive according to our Repeater Course setting (as tuned by the Magnetic compass increase/decrease).
Also understand there is some variation according to the "Kurs" Automatic Compass Deviation meter.

I may have the cat by the tail or something! If I was on the airfield, engines idling, and wanted to pre-set the auto-pilot course:
a. Current Magnetic Heading parked aircraft = 30 degrees.
b. Auto-pilot course wanted once airborne = 315 degrees.
c. Variation = 75 degrees.

If I set the DG to 75 degrees (on my DG - 75 over N),
set Repeater to 315 degrees (ie 315 top centre),
take off,
engage auto-pilot, approx cse would be 315 degrees.

Is this the way it should work?

Thanks for your advice on this.

Blackdog_kt
Jul-10-2012, 14:32
Let me walk you through it with the example you provided.

Idling on the runway, you read your magnetic compass and it says you are on a heading of 30 degrees.

You turn the DG so that it also reads 30 degrees. This is the essential first step if you want to use the AP, you calibrate your DG to match your actual magnetic heading. In other words the DG is not an autopilot director, but just another direction finding instrument. The difference is that while the magnetic compasses sense a magnetic field (an absolute point of reference) and are susceptible to oscillations in turns (giving inaccurate headings), the DG senses changes of heading (a relative deduction of your heading) and are susceptible to violent maneuvers and gyro drift (it becomes inaccurate over time and needs recalibration). Since it's a relative principle of operation, the DG needs you to set the initial magnetic heading. In short, a compass can directly sense where you are pointing, but a DG cannot, it can only sense how much you have turned and in which direction, so you need to set the initial state if you want to have accurate readings.

Once airborne, you set the desired course heading (the lower half of the DG instrument) to 315 degrees.

When you engage the AP, it will "read" the offset between the upper (actual heading) and lower (desired heading) in the DG instrument and execute the necessary turn.

Three issues to be aware of:

1) There is a slight deviation between magnetic and repeater compass, about 4 degrees. I don't know if this is a bug or a realistic limitation of the systems. The magnetic is the correct one, but in the short distances we fly the drifting off-course is not much, so i mostly use the repeater because it's easier to read. Both of these compasses display magnetic heading.

2) There is a 7-9 degree offset between the upper part of the DG and the desired heading in the lower part of the instrument. So, if you want to fly due north (0 degrees), the upper half should be set to whatever your magnetic reads and the lower half of the instrument should be set to 7-9 degrees. Engaging the AP will then execute the necessary turn.

3) There are no bank limiters in the AP. If you command a course change of more than 10 degrees or so, the aircraft will bank sharply and you will lose altitude. Once everything is set and calibrated, it's better to roughly align with your intended heading before engaging the AP. This will result in the AP simply correcting and stabilizing on the chosen course, instead of executing high-angle banking maneuvers to turn you there.
Commanding big turns via the AP also has another drawback, the system is slow to react and it will overshoot the target heading if it banks too sharply, resulting in a series of zig-zags before stabilizing on course. The best way to make substantial course changes is to break them down in smaller increments: tap your autopilot left/right keys (to turn the lower half of the DG) once or twice (this results in a heading change of no more than 10 degrees or so) and once you see the aircraft about to level off, tap it again. This way you can turn the bomber an entire 360 degree turn without losing altitude or banking sharply and crashing into your wingmen. Admittedly, the resulting circle is wide, but for most stages of flight you don't really need more than 100 degrees of course changes. Using this technique, you can effectively fly the entire sortie on autopilot apart from take-off, landing and possibly dive bombing. It also has the added benefit that making these slower turns keeps it easy for other bombers in the formation to keep up.

Finally, only the lead bomber in each formation should fly on AP and others manually keeping formation with it.

Any other questions you might have just shoot. I know this might be confusing at first, so my suggestion is to simply go and fly a practice sortie doing the above steps. It will all click into place once you go through the motions a couple of times :thumbsup:

aus3620
Jul-10-2012, 20:43
Once airborne, you set the desired course heading (the lower half of the DG instrument) to


Not sure if this is a DOH moment or a ka-ching the sale has finally been made moment!

Did not know that the lower part of the DG could be adjusted - just found it.
Aircraft - Course Auto-pilot Adjust Left/Right.

Thanks for your time!

Blackdog_kt
Jul-11-2012, 15:53
No problem, enjoy flying it :thumbsup:

MajorBorris
Jul-11-2012, 16:54
You are awsesome Blackdog!

Marmus too!

I may be grounded due to technical difficulties for a little bit longer but I am glad to see another 88 pilot comming up, good luck Aus3620!

Question: Has anyone improved the level bombing acurracy yet?

See ya in the air!

Blackdog_kt
Jul-12-2012, 21:16
To be honest, i haven't fiddled much with level bombing lately. I think we need a custom-made mission in the FMB to test this accurately, like a bombing training range.

Airspawn 30-50 kms from the target so that we have some time to set everything up (we can always use time compression if we want to), lots of targets so we can pick and choose, targets stretching for a sufficient distance to make multiple runs in one mission playthrough, zero wind and clear weather, zero elevation of targets, that kind of thing.

I might get to grips with it if i have time during the weekend, but i was thinking that maybe we'd all be better off if i just tidied up the bomber bug reporting thread over on the official forums and made it a sticky for a while to get 1C's attention, i don't know.

In any case, what we'd need in such an FMB mission is targets at sea level and brightly colored ones, possibly arranged in circles to measure our accuracy and deduce results on how off the bombsights really are: if we know how many meters short or long they drop, given our altitude and airspeed we can then calculate the needed correction to use in the bombsights until they fix them.

The only way i see to satisfy all these conditions is fire up the FMB, lay a ton of bridges all over the channel so that they essentially cover a few square kms (so that it's mostly at sea level) and then start placing the most brightly colored objects i can find on those bridges, arranged in concentric circles. I'm thinking of the lighthouses here.

It's worth a try i think :D

Marmus
Jul-12-2012, 22:03
I only just started fiddling with level bombing this evening....think I got the basic jist of how the autopilot works....will take some practice. I would like to do an in-depth tutorial video explaining it all using the information compiled in this thread. But first need to figure it out for myself, LOL.

aus3620
Jul-12-2012, 22:50
Great idea re the bombing range with the known variables. An issue I found is the visability/spawning of the targets. I placed a large hanger on Ramsgate and approached at a height of 3000 metres. The target does not spawn/become visible until quite late in the sequence. This maybe just my choice of object, need to test some other target objects.

Nice idea re a tutorial video Marmus, if I can assist give me a yell. Mind you I'm still wrestling with the basics of level-bombing myself!

MajorBorris
Jul-12-2012, 23:50
Keller found the work arround for the He111 in this fashion. Bombing in the FMB untill the bombs would hit.

The last patch invalidated his findings.

They must have tweaked the bombing model again.

We will have 20 human bombers in formation in the future with the work we are doing!

See ya in the air!

Blackdog_kt
Jul-12-2012, 23:54
I also have some trouble aligning with and finding targets that i'm not familiar with (read: haven't bombed at least once :thumbsup: )and the fact that i'm running mostly medium graphics settings also takes its toll.

However, i have found that due to the LOD funkiness that currently exists in the sim (how far away the objects "dots" appear before rendering into complete objects), it is quite possible to see the kind of targets we have on ATAG from many miles out. Most of the times, you can see some dots on the ground long before the surrounding area renders in high detail. It is at this point that i do my lining up, because at some point further on they disappear as you approach, before finally rendering as complete objects.

The trick is to line up the target with the dots from far out, then as you come closer and terrain features start becoming more visible you memorize the location of the dots with regards to the surrounding area, eg "targets are left of this river and to the right of this small town" or "at the left of the runway on the airfield", etc. This is how i maintain my course during the time it takes for the whole thing to render in high detail, at which point i'm well enough aligned and can take aim.

This only works when the targets are actual objects, like static vehicles/aircraft. If there is no 3D model of an object to render, then there are no dots.

Currently this is the only kind of target we can have, but in the latest beta patch some new scripting commands are available that permit setting area bombing targets. In other words, we won't need to have objects on the ground as a means to keep score, because the game will be able to tell if our bombs fall within a specific area: instead of having to destroy a set % of fuel trucks for example, we could have a runway cratering mission where the goal is to drop x amount of explosives around a specific radius from the center of the airfield.

The upside here is that it's more realistic as a level bombing objective and yields further scripting possibilities: if a refinery is attacked and out of action maybe the surrounding airfields will suffer a lack of fuel, or the above cratered airfield could be rendered inactive for a while until runway repairs take place, etc.
The downside is that there will be no static objects as artificial targets and hence, no dots to guide us. However, i think that by properly adjusting the size of the target areas to WWII standards (where a football field probably amounts to pin-point precision) it will be easy enough to find and bomb the targets just by navigating and comparing landmarks to the map. If you can find Dungeness and Dover, you can also find Hawkinge and Manston to bomb them ;)

We've got quite a bomber crew here, in fact the only trouble i see is that we are probably a bit spread out over different time zones. Given time however, i think we'll be able to put up groups of 5-10 on a semi-regular basis. I think we need to build the training range mission in the FMB first and foremost for two reasons: we can put up videos on youtube to show 1c exactly how off the bombsights are, plus we can probably come up with a workaround/correction.

I'll probably give it a go anyway, but if anyone is comfortable with the FMB and has some spare time i wouldn't say no to some help. I would simply use static ships parked next to each other with concentric rings of red lighthouses among them, but i don't know how much it would tax our PCs if i placed that many objects in a mission, hence the whole bridges in the middle of the Channel idea.

Marmus
Jul-13-2012, 07:23
Target aquisition range has always been a problem. In Il2 1946, the work around was to place the objects that do show up as dots inside the real Target. For example, ships worked very well from far away, so they would place a group of ships on land, then a warehouse over top of them. From far away the dots apear.....when closer the warehouse renders in. It also helped to register a score for Target hit. I am not sure if that helps or even works similar in CloD.

aus3620
Jul-15-2012, 00:59
Re the Lofte bombsight view, understand the top left is the angle of view of the bombsight looking forward.
what are the numbers on the bottom indicating?
866

When in bombsight view how do you rudder trim the aircraft?
I have the autopilot in R22 mode, and I have set keys to adjust the rudder (as well as rudder foot-pedals), but I am not getting any reaction!
note - in bombardier bombsight view.

any other info appreciated.

thx

Blackdog_kt
Jul-15-2012, 15:07
The upper, dual triangle mark is the current angle the bombsight is looking at. The lower, single triangle mark is the calculated bomb release angle for the altitude and speed you used. However, it is bugged and doesn't currently work. It should move when you change your alt/speed settings but does not.

For your second question, when you use the R22 autopilot you don't use rudder trim at all. You just use the "Aircraft - Course Auto-pilot Adjust Left/Right" to command turns, but in this mode the aircraft turns with rudder only (wings level) instead of ailerons :thumbsup:

Marmus
Jul-16-2012, 11:36
Anybody know if the Pitot Tube Heater has been modeled yet? I know if it is turned on, the light comes on (as it has always been), just wondering if it does anything yet? Does the Autopilot do anything different if the Pitot Tube Heater is turned on?



A little side step, but this seemed the appropriate place to put it....

Photos of an old Lofte Bombsight.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4077832

Wish they would make a PDF of that manual!!!

MajorBorris
Jul-16-2012, 14:49
Hi Marmus!

I have yet to ever see my instruments difer from expected readings and have asked on the 1c forums if anyone else has verified the Pitot tube's funcionality to no avail; except for a correction regarding its operation.

I commented on the Pito tube in Blackdogs Bomber bugs thread too.

Maybe the weather on the ATAG server comes into play?

I still turn it on anyway.

If it is dark in the server the Pito tube light illuminates the compass, very handy since the secondary light does not work yet.

The manuals I have seen have light for the Pito tube on the left side of the panel in real life. In the sim it's on the right, where the auto pilot light is supposed to be.

Blackdog_kt
Jul-16-2012, 18:33
I've seen airspeed readings rapidly reducing when flying through cloud and the canopy is fogging up, which can be corrected by turning on the pitot tube heater. This was in since the very first release version by the way.

MajorBorris
Jul-16-2012, 20:10
Ahh, I wondered if it was showing the performance of the plane as it wallows through the cloud.

I avoided the clouds there after not testing the Pitot:doh:

Are there other conditions that you have seen Blackdog where the pitot helps?

Blackdog_kt
Jul-17-2012, 04:30
Not really, it's just for your instruments to display correct data. That being said, the clouds are a bit excessive in their icing tendencies as they are currently modeled, so your performance does drop when flying through them every single time. I saw this flying an 88 the other day on ATAG, i was normally climbing to altitude and then decided to fly through a cloud. When the canopy was all fogged up i was dropping like a stone, i think the VSI was registering a descent of more than 5 m/sec.

In other bomber related news, wikipedia has some pretty good articles about wartime bombsights. The Lofte 7 is not explained in too much depth but the Norden is and it's very similar. Actually, a spy was working in the Norden factory and at some point passed on information to German agents, constructing plans from memory, and that's what the Lofte was based on. It actually is a simpler device than the Norden and requires less effort to calibrate.

The British ones are covered as well, especially the cranky old contraption that is used on the Blenheim (which is a WWI era design by the way). A lot of people reported that you need to input your indicated airspeed to that sight instead of your ground speed and it turns out that's the correct way to do it in the real thing as well. The way it worked was that they would input their IAS, altitude, wind direction, wind speed and the sight was essentially working like a slide-ruler/analog computer, transferring those inputs via gears, etc to move the two sighting markers around. So it automatically adjusted your aiming angle by correlating IAS with altitude (which is essentially a TAS calculation), then the wind data provided the actual ground speed and drift.

The sight required leveling each time the aircraft angle of attack changed (so that for example it doesn't point ahead when your nose is up), but this is done automatically since a few patches ago by flying relatively straight for a few seconds. We do have two liquid/bubble level indicators on the in-game sight to judge it and even with the absence of an autopilot or level stabilizer function, i find that the bubble usually rests between the two markers that denote level.

There is also a fairly complicated process of measuring the wind (with three different methods available) by using the compass attached to the base of the bombsight, but this is somewhat simplified in the sim as well. In reality they would rotate that compass to set wind direction, then set the wind speed and this would tilt the protruding horizontal bars of the sight left/right. In the sim we can directly set the bombsight left/right offset. The trick is to pick an arbitrary point on the ground ahead of those parallel wires and watch it as you fly over it. If the sight is correctly calibrated for drift (either due to wind or due to sideslip, and many of use fly with sidelsip and incorrect rudder trim on purpose to counter the Blenheim's tendency to roll, so that we can actually fly somewhat hands-off and aim the bombs), that arbitrary point will be moving parallel to the wires. It's better to select a ground feature that will be moving between the wires to accurately judge this. If it starts moving between them but then "touches" one of the wires as it moves down your screen, your sight is off. If everything is set correctly, it should simply move through those wires.

So, getting that angle gives you the offset you need to fly at to arrive over the target. It's like crabbing in a crosswind landing, you just turn into the wind/against the sideslip as many degrees as the sight offset you used to calibrate the wires. I'm not sure if you need to recenter it to actually aim though once you are on course, i'll have to reread that section of the article. This is the so called CSBS (course stabilizing bomb sight i think it means) and the one we have in the Blen is either a Mk.IX or a Mk.VII model.

The most mind blowing thing however is the Mk.XIV they fitted to RAF bombers from 1942 onwards. It's not as accurate as the Norden and Lofte but get this, it takes only 10 seconds to settle and you can bomb at a slight climb or a shallow dive. The bombardier only inputs target elevation, wind direction and speed, as well as the terminal velocity of the bombs (this is done in all sights to calculate bomb trajectories according to altitude and airspeed at the time of dropping, but the sim does it automatically). The earlier models (MK.XII i think?) actually needed an extra crewman to fiddle with an analog computer and turn knobs and switches around to match what the aircraft instruments displayed, but the Mk.XIV made this automatic, reading altitude and airspeed directly from the instruments.

Its downside was that in order to measure wind you had to follow the most complicated method of the tree available for the Blenheim sight: fly for a few seconds at three different headings (preferably 120 degrees apart) and do some calculations.
The upside however was that once wind was known they could just point the bomber at the target and wait until it passed under the reticule. The sight was gyrostabilized and had a moving reflector sight, showing exactly where the bombs would fall if you pressed the button. Essentially it's like the CCIP mode (continuously calculated impact point) in a modern HUD!
This means they didn't have to be flying level (it worked from 20 degrees nose down to 5 degrees nose up) and incidentally, the best way to make flak miss was to alternate climbs and dives every few seconds. Plus, it was possible to execute a bomb release mere seconds after executing a turn. In other words, make a 180 to get out of the narrow radar cone of a following night-fighter, then turn around again and release within 10-15 seconds.
It also had modified variants for low altitude operations with anti-shipping Mosquitoes. Those read altitude directly off a radio altimeter because at low altitudes pressure changes are frequent and that changes the readouts on analog altimeters. These variants were also adjusted to operate at higher speeds and since those Mossies didn't have a glass nose, the sight was mounted in front of the pilot and used for bombing in a shallow dive.

Pretty awesome stuff i'm telling you, makes me wish we'd get some night fighters and night bombers at some point. Then we could have missions that run a full day/night cycle and blow up each other in the dark :)

MajorBorris
Jul-17-2012, 12:02
Great stuff Blackdog!

The information you give is of invaluable service to Bomber pilots everywhere!

I too would love a night fighter:thumbsup:

Personal favorite is the Heinkel He 219 Uhu but if the devs gave us a Ju 88 night fighter I would be very happy:cool:

Doc
Jul-17-2012, 12:05
Thanks Blackdog! You are the Oracle to me. I'm so glad you post here and share your knowledge with everyone. :)

I hope that some day we can see night missions - especially night fighters! This is what I want most from this sim.

MajorBorris
Jul-17-2012, 16:06
Hey Marmus, that old Lofte Bombsight is amazingly cool.

First time I got a chance to see it.

I wonder what its worth and how the heck did that dude get so lucky to find it :thumbsup:

Blackdog_kt
Jul-17-2012, 16:39
There was a guy over on the 1c forums who wants to build a working Lofte replica for his sim-pit. Apparently DIY throttle quadrants are too mainstream for him and he decided to take the challenge up a notch or two :thumbsup:

In all seriousness though, i saw his initial designs in some kind of CAD software and it was amazing. Too bad i can't remember the title of that thread so i can search for it.

Marmus
Jul-17-2012, 17:00
Yea, I had seen it also. I think it was under the controls section, for an He-111 cockpit. Impressive stuff.

Found it http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32149

aus3620
Jul-19-2012, 01:35
Hi Blackdog, Major_Boris, et al!

Been doing a bit of practice with level bombing. Most times I could probably hit within a couple of blocks of a football stadium size target! However, the ships I am using are quite safe at present. I have bombs loaded in the two internal bays. I always select All bays and Salvo. Some observations and wondering if others are getting similar results:
1. Distributor Delay to zero. I expect the bombs to impact generally in the same area, a group rather than a line. Instead, I always get them going off in a line.
Has anyone done any observations of bomb patterns? ie does the Distrib Delay do anything!

2. The impact line starts at the furthest point and works back against the line of flight! I would have thought the bombs would explode in a pattern according to the direction of flight - like walking forward. Just me or is the bomb exploding algorithm back to front?

Just found the Mission Parameters - so have turned any wind off for my testing. Better late than never!

Generally speaking, I seem to fall short of the target. Using the IAS/TAS table. Not sure if my input is low and slow compared to actual or the instrument readings are too fast and high!?

Blackdog_kt
Jul-19-2012, 05:04
It seems you have stumbled upon the kind of problems we've all been facing. That's the bad news. The good news is that to get there, you are probably sufficiently comfortable to fly the aircraft, navigate and keep it steady on the bomb run with the autopilot :thumbsup:

The short answer is that yes, the bomb algorithm seems to be front to back.

As for the bombsight per se, up until before this beta we had a workaround (actually i think it was either Keller or MajorBorris here that discovered it). Converting IAS from metric (km/h) to imperial (mph) units did the trick for calculating the bomb release point (we would divide by 1.6 and use the result for the bombsight speed value), but tracking the target was wrong and we had to readjust the crosshairs through the bomb run. In other words, the bombsight treated speed values as imperial when calculating bomb release, while correctly treating them as metric when calculating how fast the crosshairs would move with the automation engaged. Keller used the opposite method of this, he would multiply his altitude by 1.6 and use his actual speed values. This gave correct tracking of the target as well as release point calculation, but the drawback was that you couldn't go above a certain altitude: multiplying alt by 1.6 you soon reached the end of the bombsight's altitude scale (i think it goes up to 10km).

Currently, i think that neither method works. I expect that they changed it either because they were testing it, or took a look at some of our posts and applied a fix sloppily. I haven't tested it yet, but i have a certain suspicion that they made it treat everything as the same set of units, but using imperial instead of metric. The easiest way to test this is to fly at 3km, convert it to ft (input 10.000 to your bombsight altitude as an approximate conversion) and use your IAS x 1.6 for bombsight speed. If the bombsight tracks correctly and also hits close to the target, we may have discovered the bug.

I'll try to find some time to test this today as well, but please, if anyone can do it too it would be great so that we can compare results. If this is the bug we're having, the fix should be pretty trivial: it would mean their Lofte algorithm is correct and they would only have to add a unit conversion into it. Meaning, if they release a hotfix on Friday to cure the 100 octane Hurricane start-up issues, the bombsight fix might also make it into the update.

Let's get moving...or we'll have to be flying Wolf's mission only in Stukas, Jabos and dive bombing 88s/111s, while i think that most of us here would prefer doing a nice formation drop at altitude :D

ATAG_Septic
Jul-19-2012, 08:04
Thanks for all your efforts Blackdog,

I wish I could assist more with this but I just don't have the necessary intelligence or patience. That's not a cop-out, all this really confuses me.

I can navigate and use the autopilot, after a fashion but I've had a rough time recently trying to low-level or dive bomb on all aircraft. I I keep getting killed by flak, even on a single fast run so will be relieved to be able to level bomb. (I miss the ships as targets, more likelihood of meeting fighters was compensated for by what seemed slightly less dangerous AAA).

I will give this a go now but I doubt I'll be able to produce the necessary information.

Thanks again for your efforts on behalf of the bombers.

Septic.

aus3620
Jul-19-2012, 08:08
Thanks Blackdog for your informative reply(ies). I don't think I would have picked the imperial issue by myself.

Decided to test the imperial settings at "3000ft". Spawned at 3500 metres (set 4000m in the dialogue), accelerated down to 3100m, levelled off then set auto-pilot R22.
In R22 mode always seem to gradually lose speed and altitude - I think I read the plane takes a nose down attitude in R22, more drag I presume. By the time I was over target the speed was down to 320kmh and altitude 2850m. So set TAS as 340kmh. The furthest bomb (first to explode) actually scored a hit on a ship! yay! the two ships are sitting across the line of flight, so not a huge target.

The imperial table makes sense from my recent experience with the metric table where I was mainly falling short (ie TAS setting too high). The imperial TAS figure being 340 vs the metric 377.

No joy re the Distrib Delay - it would be nice to have that fixed!

Thx for your help.

Marmus
Jul-19-2012, 14:16
I am not downplaying the need to figure out this automation system, and whatever bug is in it, but have any of you used manual level bombing? For many, it was the preferred method of bombing in IL-2:1946....I always found it more accurate and forgiving...once you got experience in it. Basically, you figure out speed and height and then get the bomb release angle from a table or small app. When the cross hairs go over the target at the designated bomb site angle, manually release your bombs. There are many tools and tutorials from IL-2:1946 on the procedures.

MajorBorris
Jul-19-2012, 15:35
I am not downplaying the need to figure out this automation system, and whatever bug is in it, but have any of you used manual level bombing? For many, it was the preferred method of bombing in IL-2:1946....I always found it more accurate and forgiving...once you got experience in it. Basically, you figure out speed and height and then get the bomb release angle from a table or small app. When the cross hairs go over the target at the designated bomb site angle, manually release your bombs. There are many tools and tutorials from IL-2:1946 on the procedures.

Thats a good one to add to the toolbox.

Blackdog_kt
Jul-19-2012, 16:37
I am not downplaying the need to figure out this automation system, and whatever bug is in it, but have any of you used manual level bombing? For many, it was the preferred method of bombing in IL-2:1946....I always found it more accurate and forgiving...once you got experience in it. Basically, you figure out speed and height and then get the bomb release angle from a table or small app. When the cross hairs go over the target at the designated bomb site angle, manually release your bombs. There are many tools and tutorials from IL-2:1946 on the procedures.

This would work if we had the correct symbology on the bombsight. Currently i suspect it's a bit dodgy. The other issue is that the blue text area at the right of the screen that displays system messages (eg, "course setter: 318" or "gear up") doesn't display the actual angle the bombsight is set at when moving the crosshairs up/down. I'm not entirely sure and i'd have to check, but most of the times my memory is good with details like that. In other words, we need a way to read the bombsight angle if we are to bomb manually.

Another thing is that the bombsight table overlay application that we used in IL2:1946 doesn't work correctly with 64-bit versions of windows (i don't know if an updated one is available), which means you have to alt-tab out of the sim to gain access to it.

The final potentially problematic issue is the FM of the bombs themselves. Atmospheric model and FM's differ between the two sims, so even if we had a way to tell the bombsight angle and drop manually, we would still have to run extensive tests to determine the differences between the old and new IL2 series.




Thanks Blackdog for your informative reply(ies). I don't think I would have picked the imperial issue by myself.

Decided to test the imperial settings at "3000ft". Spawned at 3500 metres (set 4000m in the dialogue), accelerated down to 3100m, levelled off then set auto-pilot R22.
In R22 mode always seem to gradually lose speed and altitude - I think I read the plane takes a nose down attitude in R22, more drag I presume. By the time I was over target the speed was down to 320kmh and altitude 2850m. So set TAS as 340kmh. The furthest bomb (first to explode) actually scored a hit on a ship! yay! the two ships are sitting across the line of flight, so not a huge target.

The imperial table makes sense from my recent experience with the metric table where I was mainly falling short (ie TAS setting too high). The imperial TAS figure being 340 vs the metric 377.

No joy re the Distrib Delay - it would be nice to have that fixed!

Thx for your help.

First of all, thanks for taking the time to run some tests and congrats on getting a hit :thumbsup:

I also have a question, i would appreciate it if you could clarify. You bombed from 2850 meters at an IAS of 320km/h. What were the the actual numbers you input into the bombsight for speed and altitude? The reason i'm asking is that i can't discern if you converted both values to mph and feet, or just one of them. Thanks in advance :D

Marmus
Jul-19-2012, 16:57
I hear ya, just wanted to bring it up into the discussion. I always had two monitors, with the bombsite table application and TeamSpeek on the 2nd screen. I now have an App on my Android phone that does the same thing.

I thought the angle was what the moving arrow points to in the bombsite. Nothing was ever perfect in manual bombing....it became more of an art-form, knowing when to drop early or late

No worries, we can just do some differential equations and get the correct trajectory based on this little document: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930091140_1993091140.pdf

aus3620
Jul-19-2012, 19:56
Hi Blackdog,

Thought I should have put more info in my last post! It is easy to get baffled with all the numbers.

Imperial Chart.
MPH Column: 325 Bombsight TAS Input (velocity): 340 kmh (3000ft column)
Altitude: 2850m Bombsight Altitude Input: 2850m

So in summary, used the Imperial Table as if it was the Metric table - no manipulation of the figures. As I mentioned previously, it immediately made sense as the metric figures were resulting in falling short - input TAS too high. Of course, had to tune in the bombsight on the final run as these figures only give a "ballpark" guide.

Really need a two person show to test the figures. The pilot to fly a steady speed at 3000m and another to run the bombsight. As you mentioned, in Mission Parameters turn off wind etc.

I also made a table with feet converted to metres, so 8000ft = 2438.4 metres. The 8000-10000 ft columns give a TAS range of 364 to 375 at 325mph. Not far from the metric 325/377 for 3000m (9842.5ft). As an approximation you could use the metric table but divide the height by 3, so for 3000m read from the 1000m column.

Thanks to Marmus and yourself for pointing out the "Bombsight Table 2" application. Using the app I determined the release angle was about 41 degrees. As the triangle on the bombsight approached 41 (top left) I went to external view and watched the bombs release. I repeated this numerous times so it is useful as far as knowing when the release occurs. I never tried a manual release, the idea of an automated release is a sound one I think.

I'll do a bit more testing using the Imperial table with the Metric readouts and let you know. Just in case last time was a fluke! Be a little surprised if I get great variation, the resultant lower TAS confirms my suspicions from using the metric table.

One more thing, I setup the aircraft (50% water and oil radiators), ata on the green line, initially reduce prop pitch, then go to R22. Do you do anything else during the run as far as engine management goes?

thx

Blackdog_kt
Jul-19-2012, 20:55
Hmm, that's the strangest of the workarounds i've heard thus far, but if it works why not? Great job on getting to grips with it.

As for the bomb run, i run slightly higher throttle (1.2 - 1.25 ata) if i'm not too high, otherwise it drops to the green line by itself due to low ambient air pressure. 50/50 radiators sounds good as a balance between drag and sufficient cooling. About RPM now, i always run at the green line (about 2100-2200) throughout the sortie, unless i'm taking off or on the landing approach, where i use full RPM for faster response (think like down-shifting in a car when you want to accelerate or when you want to go slow when driving downhill).

The aircraft in the sim is modeled with constant speed propellers (adjust until you get the desired RPM and then it stays there to the best of the prop governor's ability) but i think that is a bit inaccurate (it was like that on the A-4 model but we have an A-1, probably pitch should be manual like the 109/110, not entirely sure though). So, it's a case where it's probably not historically accurate, but it kind of helps us.

My question is if you manage to keep it from losing altitude with R22 engaged. Maybe we are loading the old bird too much? I usually fly with 40% fuel and a full bomb load and barely use any of it in the missions we usually fly (i'm just paranoid about fuel leaks :D ). Maybe i should try 20% fuel and see if it helps keeping it level.

Also, do you find that the crosshairs scale in the bombsight correctly displays the angles after your testing and comparisons with the bombsight table application?

It's good we have another test pilot because i'm temporarily out of action. I tried to enable the TS notifier plug-in and for some reason it messed up my entire installation of the sim. I tried reverting back to the last official patch, clearing cache and reinstalling the beta, but no luck. So currently i'm CoD-less, as i have uninstalled and i'm waiting for Steam to download everything from scratch. I hope i'll be back up and running tomorrow.

aus3620
Jul-20-2012, 03:08
Re loadout. Reduced fuel to 20% and only filled the front bay. Made a big difference. Still some descent but not much and speed is stable at 330kmh.
I have been testing at 3000m for quite a few missions and the 41 degree angle derived from "BS Table 2" has proven to be accurate regarding release. At least as far as I can test it. Just as the triangle approaches 41 I go to external view and then see the bombs release.

I was still getting a lot of bombs going short, but for some reason felt the TAS method (ie, use imperial chart) was doing the trick. I wondered what could be happening with altitude. I decided to try converting metres to yards as I was looking for a higher altitude number. For example, 3000m = 3281y (conversion 1m=1.09361y). Took readings from the pilot's position till late in the sequence, confirmed the bombsight input according to the observation, then tuned the crosshair using the bombsight Distance keys right up until release. Not exactly orthodox but am getting consistent hits compared to the standard adjusting Velocity and Altitude method. On a previous mission I thought I had it perfect (using the standard tuning), the crosshair did not move off the target a millimetre, was smooth as silk, dropped short!

In summary then, using imperial chart as a metric chart for TAS calc. Then multiplying the altitude column by 1.09361 for the bombsight altitude input. Finally, keeping the crosshair on the target by tuning with the Distance keys for top-btm alignment. Left-right alignment as previously discussed. I made myself a table with 50m increments for the altitude adjustment.

Bad luck about your machine and CLoD installation! Hope you have it up for this week's mega patch that will fix everything! (lol)

Blackdog_kt
Jul-20-2012, 07:05
Hmmm, so it's a variation of the previous bug: when the sight tracks correctly the release point is calculated wrong and vice versa.

Good job on the tests. I reinstalled last night but i stayed up doing some reading so i'll grab a few hours of sleep. I'll probably install the beta in the afternoon and see how things go.

MajorBorris
Jul-20-2012, 15:03
Regarding %20 fuel:

In the begining it seemed to me more than %20 was not needed when taking off from Tramecourt.

However;

Lately I have been taking much more so that when my main feeder tanks have a leak I can start the fuel cock sequence with fuel to spare:flying:

Blackdog_kt
Jul-21-2012, 06:19
I seem to remember you saying at an earlier date that the sim automatically takes care of pumping fuel from the "reserve" tanks to the feeder tanks, by turning on the respective fuel switches as fuel is depleted. Did they change it or did it only work for normal consumption (ie, not in the event of fuel leaks)?

I also have something else to ask. A few days ago i was online and on the way home from the Ramsgate target i picked up a Spit. I had a human gunner and he did a pretty good job, i would wait for him to fire (and he did in beautiful, controlled bursts) in order not to spoil his aim and then i would weave, reverse direction, etc. The whole thing almost ended in a scissors fight (it's amazing how much you can throw the 88 around when it's not carrying a bomb load), the Spit was low on ammo from a previous engagement and i called Lolsav on TS who came by and chased him off.

However, we did get hit a bit and i lost the hydraulic pump. So, upon reaching Tramecourt i couldn't lower flaps or gear and i had to side-slip it in for a belly landing. All in all a great sortie, but i was left with two questions:

1) Does the 88 have a manual hand pump for situations like this?

2) Are gear and flaps supposed to be hydraulically powered? The reason i'm asking is that the luftwaffe had a preference for electric motors usually so i was kind of surprised to see them inoperative, especially the flaps.

Thanks in advance for any answers :thumbsup:

Also, volunteers are needed for a bit of pressure application. Just pile into the Friday update thread at 1c forums, go to page 9, scroll down near the end of the page and you'll find my post. If you want to get our bombsights fixed then give it a read, quote it and add your own input about the matter. I suspect the amount of work required to fix the Lofte would be similar to the hotfix they did for the 100 octane Hurricane that wouldn't start. All our testing points to a mix-up between metric and imperial units, maybe all the have to do is a multiplication/division in the code to convert them. So, since we have another week until they give us a patch, maybe we'll get lucky, they will take notice and we'll have it ready next Friday.

No offence to the people who don't fly bombers, but i've been harping on about that gyrocompass on the 88 ever since the sim was released and it only got fixed in the previous beta, while fighters usually get priority in everything because they are more popular (they could have simply copy-pasted the working code from the 111 to the 88 all this time). Well, it seems that as the game is getting more playable and people are building more complex missions, we'll be needing those bombers pretty soon.

Technically we have bombers, but now that channel command is up and running i'm not going to go up to 7km in formation just so the other players have something interesting to shoot when i can't blow stuff up from altitude, and i'm getting tired of dive bombing and getting unfriendly "escorts" at the pull-up, not to mention the flak will be more realistic in this mission. So let's "zerg rush" the update thread a bit and who knows, maybe next week we'll be carpet bombing Wolf's targets :D

aus3620
Jul-21-2012, 08:14
i have put together a video about my JU88 level bombing findings to date.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMPWOy55_e4

Just looked at the vid again. Win MovieMaker crashed once during production - lost a heap of work. Forgot to include one factor on the remake. Altitude needs a conversion as well - convert metres to yards - 1m = 1.09361y. eg 3000m=3281y - input 3280 into bombsight-altitude. video updated!

Blackdog_kt
Jul-21-2012, 23:28
Excellent work and just what we need to show the developers. I was thinking of making a video myself but i'm way too low on hard drive space to record anything, you just saved me.

So in short, this is what's wrong with the Lofte bombsight:
1) When calculating the release point, altitude has to be converted to imperial units and TAS has to be calculated from the chart for imperial units without conversion (so when you are doing 300km/h at 3000m, you look at the chart where it says 300mph at 3000ft and use that number instead).
2) The above method gives the correct release point for where the bombsight is pointing, but it doesn't track the targets correctly when automation is engaged. If not continuously adjusted, the bombsight will point away from the target.

What should happen:
1) Input TAS and altitude in metric units, point the crosshairs at the target.
2) Engage automation.
3) Fine tune TAS until the crosshairs are steady over a specific point on the ground. If the crosshairs move below the target it's compensating too much so reduce TAS a bit. If they move above the target it's not compensating enough, so increast TAS value a bit. (incidentally, you can also use this method to get your TAS when navigating).
4) Adjust crosshairs and place them on target again.
5) Wait.

Couple of considerations before i go posting your findings on 1c. A yard is about 90cm, is the conversion really necessary? And finally, can i incorporate this video (credit given of course :thumbsup: ) in my bomber bugs and suggestions thread? It's very useful as it not only shows a direct hit (which means the method is accurate and they can "reverse-engineer" the problem from it), but it also shows the bomb-sight display bugs where shallow water is rendered as sand and the terrain shows through the periphery of the scope.

aus3620
Jul-22-2012, 00:58
Hi Blackdog,

No worries about using any of my comments, video, etc. Basically it is a summary of our recent conversations.

Yep, sounds like your on the track. But just to confirm my ramblings:

1. TAS Calculation
.Read IAS (kmh).
.Read altimeter (metres)
.use IAS as mph and altitude as feet on imperial chart to calculate TAS
example - IAS 325 kmh, altimeter 3000m; imperial chart - TAS = 339mph from 325mph and 3000ft reading. Input bombsight Velocity 340 kmh

2. Bombsight Altitude
Altimeter readout appears to be under-reporting by about 9% - basically the difference between a yard and a metre (this maybe coincidence).
example - altimeter 3000m, multiply by 1.09361 = 3281. Input for bombsight altitude = 3280m.

With the two data points input into the bombsight (as late as possible, and a little allowance for the variometer re sink rate) the bombardier continually adjusts the crosshair to remain over the target using the autopilot - adjust course - left/right or directional gyro - increase/decrease (trim the plane not the bombsight). Do not adjust bombsight velocity or altitude as previously calculated (unless as a result of update observation of altimeter and IAS).

Of course, do not use bombsight - adjust - left/right.

Hope this helps.

Proved the concept with he-111.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWnsgUu1tPs&feature=youtube_gdata

Blackdog_kt
Jul-22-2012, 16:19
Great, thanks for all the valuable help :thumbsup:


Regarding this:




2. Bombsight Altitude
Altimeter readout appears to be under-reporting by about 9% - basically the difference between a yard and a metre (this maybe coincidence).
example - altimeter 3000m, multiply by 1.09361 = 3281. Input for bombsight altitude = 3280m.



I remember a few people having similar issues with the Blenheim in some of the quick missions (i think that one was over-reporting), but it was a matter of calibrating the altimeter. So maybe what we would really need is the ability to radio the tower and ask for the ambient air pressure at sea level.

Alternatively, since we don't have dynamic weather yet and the sea level pressure remains constant in the sim, we could have a list of airfield elevations so that we can calibrate our altimeters at the start of the mission. Is it possible to read terrain elevation from the FMB? If so, spawning on the ground and calibrating the altimeter to match will also show the correct pressure and since the weather model is static, we can probably use this default pressure for all of our flying for quite some time.

This might prove to do away with the need to convert meters to yards and will greatly simplify things for now.

ATAG_Septic
Jul-22-2012, 17:03
Great, thanks for all the valuable help :thumbsup:


Regarding this:



I remember a few people having similar issues with the Blenheim in some of the quick missions (i think that one was over-reporting), but it was a matter of calibrating the altimeter. So maybe what we would really need is the ability to radio the tower and ask for the ambient air pressure at sea level.

Alternatively, since we don't have dynamic weather yet and the sea level pressure remains constant in the sim, we could have a list of airfield elevations so that we can calibrate our altimeters at the start of the mission. Is it possible to read terrain elevation from the FMB? If so, spawning on the ground and calibrating the altimeter to match will also show the correct pressure and since the weather model is static, we can probably use this default pressure for all of our flying for quite some time.

This might prove to do away with the need to convert meters to yards and will greatly simplify things for now.


Can you use this list Blackdog? Kindly posted here by Felipe;

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?958-Elevation-of-airfields-in-Cliffs-of-Dover-for-flight-plans

Blackdog_kt
Jul-22-2012, 18:12
Cheers, that's great. In that thread there is also a link to another post by Felipe with some environmental testing, according to which and the air pressure at sea level remains constant.

So, what we need to do is
1) spawn on the ground
2) adjust the altimeter until we get the correct altitude for the airfield we are sitting on, from Felipe's list
3) read the sea-level pressure setting from the altimeter (just hover the mouse over the cut-out in the instrument face)
4) memorise and use that pressure setting to calibrate our altimeters from now on, because it's constant
5) just in case, spawn on the same field in an online mission, select that pressure value and see if the altimeter reads the correct elevation...this will prove if barometric pressure is default and constant across all missions

I would do it right now (it will only take two minutes in the cross country mission) but i didn't get around to finishing the reinstall of the sim yet after my installation got corrupted the other day. Might as well start steam and get it downloading now that i'm reminded of it.

If i'm up and running tomorrow this is what i'll try to do:
1) Follow all the above steps.
2) Use Aus3620's method of level bombing, but without converting the altitude to yards.

If anyone else is up for it, please be my guest. :D

aus3620
Jul-22-2012, 19:28
3) read the sea-level pressure setting from the altimeter (just hover the mouse over the cut-out in the instrument face)
4) memorise and use that pressure setting to calibrate our altimeters from now on, because it's constant

Hi Blackdog and others,

I always learn something from your posts! Did not notice the mbar reading in the altimeter before!
Re the quote above - What is the calibration method?
Nice list from Felipe.
I notice when spawning at various airfields the altimeter has adjusted to approximations of Felipe's list.

Blackdog_kt
Jul-22-2012, 20:22
There is a rotating knob on the altimeters, you can click on it or map buttons to the function in your control options (just like flaps and landing gear). Turning it will modify the mbar setting, which is the reference pressure for what the altimeter considers zero. As the pressure gets lower, the altimeter "climbs". So essentially, turning that switch will modify both the mbar setting and what the altimeter displays. And since they are interlinked in their operation, modifying one setting to a known value will give us the other one.

So, to take it step by step...

To find out what is the ambient air pressure at sea level:

1) Select an airfield and note its elevation above sea level from Felipe's list.
2) Spawn in the airfield.
3) Rotate the altimeter calibration switch until the altimeter shows an altitude matching the one in the list.
3) Hover your mouse over the mbar setting and note down the pressure it displays.

To use the air pressure we deduced earlier in order to find out the altitudes at other places:

1) Rotate the altimeter calibration switch until the mbar setting matches what we discovered above.
2) Read your altitude.

If the ambient pressure at sea level is constant (according to Felipe's tests), we will only have to extract it once and post it in this thread. Then we can simply do the second part of the drill each time we spawn and we will have correctly calibrated altimeters for each mission. I'm really curious to see if doing this will result in doing away with the meters-to-yards conversion for the bombsight.

Note however that it's still better to test against ships (targets on sea level) for accurate test results, because otherwise we will also need the target's elevation to subtract from the bomber's altitude during the bomb run.

aus3620
Jul-22-2012, 22:43
Hi Blackdog,

As always, thanks for your advice. Something else to get my head around!

As a result of our recent discussion re geographic height above sea level I thought I would try a mission. Decide on Biggin Hill as it is the highest above sea level on the UK side (180m, 596ft). Same technique as we have been discussing. First mission fell short - sounds familiar I thought! So repeated the dose this time not allowing for the target height above sea level. If my finding is true the geographical features do no have height above sea level factored in.

The target was five large fuel tanks located to the east of Biggin Hill airfield. I also place some hangers to the east of the targets to assist in identification of the target - they come up before the fuel tanks.

Below is a copy of the tables I use for level bombing using the method we have discussed.

Link to my level-bombing tables (http://www.raafsquad.com/cliffs/bomberschool/levelbomb.htm)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRmakrq98nY&feature=youtube_gdata

Blackdog_kt
Jul-23-2012, 03:06
First of all a question: in the Biggin Hill video did you also convert altitude from meters to yards, or did you only do the TAS conversion from the imperial chart?

Second, the wall of text. Let's try to dissect what is happening in that video.

I think the sim does model elevation differences because in order not to, the ground would have to be devoid of collision detection (the bombs would fall through it).

Since your bombs in the video explode on contact with the ground, they definitely explode 180m above sea level and at a shorter distance traveled than when you drop over the sea. How shorter? As much horizontal distance as bombs of a specific speed (which means, dropped from your specific altitude) can cover during the time it takes for them to fall 180 meters. And since the sentences are getting a bit long and i don't know if i'm making things confusing, let me bust out my crayons and behold my awesome MSPaint skills in the attached file that explains the whole thing :D

878



So why do you score hits? Well, I'm not entirely sure about this, but now that you brought it up and you got me thinking, maybe simply getting the bombsight to track correctly should result in a release that scores hits.

Probably not all crews on raids always knew the exact target elevation and if they did, they certainly had no way to account for their altimeters displaying wrong due to pressure variations over the trip. Imagine an aircraft flying straight and level at a steady speed. The outside pressure is, let's say 800mbar and the altimeter reads whatever it reads. Then the aircraft encounters an area where pressure suddenly changes to 700mbar. The aircraft is still flying at a constant altitude, straight and level. However, as soon as it enters the lower pressure area, the altimeter "jumps" to a higher reading.

This will be familiar to people who fly civilian sims like FSX with dynamic or downloaded real time weather data. This is also the reason that civilian aviators use an arbitrary reference pressure to calibrate their altimeters as they go high and they transition from altitudes to flight levels: if they all have them calibrated the same, then they all read the same altitude regardless of ambient pressure changes. This means the aircraft autopilots slightly climb or dive through the trip because they get fooled by the altimeters jumping up and down, but it has the advantage that aircraft can maintain the vertical separation specified by aviation rules even in areas where there is no meteorological data.

Eg, a westbound flight and an eastbound flight meet in the middle of the Atlantic. If they have the same, no matter if its correct or not, reference pressure set in their altimeters, then they have a common scale on which to measure it. The actual altitude might be off, but in this case we don't care because the important thing is the difference between altitudes so that they can maintain their minimum of 1000ft separation, even if both their altimeters are off. The trick is that they are off by the same amount (let's say X feet), so it cancels out:

(actual altitude of flight 1 + X) - (actual altitude of flight 2 +X) = (act.alt of flight 1) - (act.alt of flight2) + X - X = the actual difference of altitude for the two flights

So, air traffic rules specify that eastbound flights (headings 0 to 179) fly at odd thousands of feet and westbound ones (headings 180 to 359) at even thousands of feet when flying visual, and the same thing +500 feet when flying on instruments. I don't remember which is which (maybe west is odd and east even, or maybe the +500 is for visual rules) but you get the idea. Absolute values and accuracy is not what matters, having a common scale to maintain separation is the important thing.



So, back to our bombers, a formation flying half way across Europe would probably have no idea of their absolute altitude after flying through two or three fronts of bad weather. They certainly couldn't radio the enemy towers and ask for a pressure reading :D

However, getting the bombsight to track steady would probably score hits, either through compensating by adjusting TAS or compensating by adjusting altitude.
The effect they have on tracking is the same, only reversed and maybe not exactly proportional: higher alt or slower TAS means the bombsight tracks slower from top to bottom of screen because the target would take longer to "scroll" under the nose, lower alt or higher TAS means the target would appear to approach faster so the sight would have to track faster as well.

To contrast with this, i thought about the opposite question: if a target is at 100m elevation, i calibrate the bombsight correctly for my TAS but use MSL (mean sea level) altitude instead of AGL (above ground level, which really is MSL - target elevation), what does the bombsight track?
The answer is probably a point inside the ground, 100 m below the target. So, the sight is tracking 100m further away and as such, it would track slower than needed: the target appears to "overtake" the crosshairs while moving from top to bottom of the screen.

So, any error appears as a drift in the position of the crosshairs relative to the target and it signifies that the drop will miss. By this logic, any bombsight calibration that results in a steady sight picture (crosshairs tracking the target) will score hits.

Of course, this doesn't mean we can manually move the crosshairs to keep them on target while our calibration is out of whack, it will surely miss. Neither does it mean that altitude and airspeed are completely interchangeable in how they affect bombsight tracking.
There are other considerations that i don't know if the sim models, but if it does they are handled automatically. For example, the trail setting for the bombs, which is a parameter that specifies the terminal velocity of the bombs and is different for each bomb type. Bombs dropped at a high initial speed and at high altitude will reach their terminal velocity a longer time before hitting the ground, than bombs dropped at low altitudes or lower initial speeds. In other words the bombs drop in a parabola trajectory (they start roughly parallel to the aircraft but nose down the further they travel), each bomb type has a different trajectory and this parameter is how the bombsights would account for it.

However, if the elevation differences are small, i expect the errors in aiming to be smaller than the blast radius of the bombs. To really test if a deviation occurs, we would probably have to attack a target on a hill or small mountain, deliberately set the alt incorrectly and compensate by adjusting TAS to keep the crosshairs tracking correctly.
This however is going beyond practical considerations for sim flying (we just want to hit targets) and testing for it is mostly a matter of how curious you are about airplanes :thumbsup:

All this is also complicated further by the fact that our bombsights track well when they release at the wrong time and vice versa (that's why you have to move the crosshairs on the target through your bomb run), so we can't simply do the "keep it steady on the target and see what happens" routine because it will surely miss.

So, the short version is that unless there is a substantial deviation in the bombsight parameters, setting the bombsight for more or less the correct TAS and altitude and finetuning for a steady sight picture will probably score hits.



If you can answer my initial question regarding whether you converted alt to yards or not, i will start collating all the information for submission to 1C. We also need a final test but it is much simpler: all we need to know is what it takes for the sight to track correctly (metric values straight from the instruments? conversions to imperial? metric but with TAS taken from the imperial chart? etc) once the automation is engaged. Hitting targets or even releasing bombs is not needed for this test. Just spawning in a mission with no wind, setting it on autopilot, engaging automation and adjusting TAS/alt to track an arbitrary point on the ground is all it takes.

Then we will know exactly what the mismatch is between the tracking and the release algorithms in the bombsight, i'll post our findings over on the 1c forums and we can set it up on bugtracker and vote for it :D

Let me just say a huge thank you, because i'm having some PC problems currently and i couldn't have made this in time without your help. As it is now, we still have 4 days before Friday and the next update. If we can pinpoint the bug and provided it's easy to fix and we see a patch on Friday, we may just manage to have it patched in by the end of this week :thumbsup:

aus3620
Jul-23-2012, 03:15
Re Q1 - I followed the steps I outlined in post #67, so yes, metres to yards and TAS from imperial.


Since your bombs in the video explode on contact with the ground, they definitely explode 180m above sea level

I understand your point re the bombs exploding at ground level in the video. If the ground "image" was at 180 metres (above sea level) and the contact point (where bombs explode) was at sea level, you would expect a horizontal offset (as your diagram indicates), in fact an over-shoot - the bombs pass through the "ground image" (green line) and explode on the "contact point" (presumption sea level - red line).

However, in the ship missions the bombs definitely exploded at sea level! If Biggin Hill ground image was at 180 metres, using the same technique as the ship mission, should result in a drop-short. The proposed "contact point" (180 metres asl - supposed ground level) would be met prior to sea level. In simple terms, the aircraft is lower than what is input into the bombsight, hence drop-short presuming TAS correct.

WW2 level bombing was not known for it accuracy! - so I am sure your points are valid. Hence, the initial interest in dive-bombing as a means of improving accuracy. Interestingly, the Allies figured out pin-point accuracy does not matter when you can make the sky black with bombers!

Re Getting crosshair to track steadily.
Unloaded he111, 20% fuel, R22 autopilot, no wind.
Used metric chart - used inputs from altimeter and IAS as indicated on the gauges (ie no conversion - standard metric IAS/TAS table).
Minor adjustment to TAS (increase 10-20kmh) produced a steady sight picture at 4000m, TAS 305kmh.
From my rudimentary test I would say the bombsight tracking graphics are okay. It is the bomb trajectory calcs behind it that are problematic (which is something we have proposed for some time). My experience is that the calcs will cause a consistent drop short and need adjustment as discussed.

If the devs could solve the trajectory problem I think the metric side of the house would be okay. Hopefully, linking all bombers to the correct trajectory calcs! - see bombsight Ju88 vs he-111!

Blackdog_kt
Jul-23-2012, 06:32
That's great to know. Just t get everything right, the speed you input in the sight was IAS (straight what the instruments read) or TAS (conversion from the metric table)?

The reason i'm asking is that some sights automatically calculated TAS when the bombardier would input IAS and altitude (that's what the Blenheim sight did), some did not (i think the Lofte is one of them), but as long as we can work with it it's no biggie either way. I just want to be accurate in my description and then it's to the developers to look in their documents and decide what the sight should do.

But in any case, tracking works correctly in metric and they have to fix the release point calculations. Let's also squeeze in there a request to fix the bombs exploding backwards and we're set for the time being.
I don't think it will be too hard for them to fix. It's probably a case of changing the formula slightly or making some conversions to the units, something as easy to fix as the non-starting Hurricane (which they said they fixed, it will be in the next patch).


I will also ask them about the R22 mode.

Normally, both the 111 and 88 should be able to hold level at cruise power settings (about 1.1 Ata and 2150 RPM if i remember correctly, at least for the 111H that shares the same engines as the Ju88). The thing is that level flight, in the sense of not climbing, doesn't always equal a level angle to the horizon. To get accurate drops, the autopilot levels the aircraft with the horizon so that the sight is parallel to the ground below.

Incidentally, the Blenheim does something similar but the other way around: the bombsight can be moved and there are two liquid-and-bubble level indicators to judge when it's level. This was added a few patches ago and the sim handles it automatically as long as we fly more or less steady for a few seconds. Where the RAF sight is moved and leveled relative to the horizon, the LW sight requires the entire aircraft to be leveled because it's fixed to it. So in this case, the cranky old Blenheim with its rudimentary systems is easier to setup for a bomb run :PP

Anyway, the leveling done by R22 might result in a climb or dive depending on available power. And if our engines are modeled a bit anemic or the aircraft are a bit slower than in reality (as most aircraft are in the sim currently), i can see how this would cause a problem, especially at high altitude: too much nose down trim and not enough power to generate the lift to keep it level. I know for a fact that the 111 does not achieve its rated power settings. For example, during take-off and with full fine pitch it's impossible to get the rated RPM from the props, the needles hover slightly short of 2100 RPM.

Cheers mate, you've been a great help and i'll nominate you for a testing medal par excellence over on the 1C forums. I'll form a detailed bug report on the issue today and post it, with links to your videos and this thread. Hopefully they will have some time to give it a look and a fix will be included in the following patch :thumbsup:

aus3620
Jul-23-2012, 07:57
Clarification on "Getting cross-hairs to track steadily."
Used the standard procedure, read IAS, refer to IAS/TAS metric table, input TAS.
Read altimeter, input into bombsight - no manipulation.

I am no programmer, but I think you are right in saying this should be a relatively straight forward fix. As long as the structure of the algorithm is correct it should be a simple edit with the correct figures (deciding what they are is the challenge!). Have not level bombed in the Blenheim, thought it was a little problematic not having any auto-pilot. Understand this was historical, but the pilot didn't have to jump out of his seat into the bombardier's position either!

It would be interesting to know if auto-pilot course/R22 is supposed to hold altitude. I can live with the current iteration of auto-pilot but I really would like the trajectory issue fixed (wouldn't we all I suppose). Then we can start introducing wind etc to up the challenge!

A little bit left field, but how would the CLoD bomber pilots find out about probable wind direction/strength over the target?

Blackdog_kt
Jul-23-2012, 09:47
First off, we got some developments. Blacksix said he will collect questions to ask Luthier today or tomorrow, so we will get some feedback on the issue. Also, i got feedback from another poster on 1c forums and he suggested another reason the sight misses. The funny thing is i was reading all about this a few days ago, but i never assumed it could be the culprit.

All bombs drop roughly parallel with the aircraft, but over time the wind resistance and the pull of gravity act over them. What this does is that the bomb slows down in the horizontal and accelerates in the vertical (and that's how the parabolic trajectory occurs). Each bomb type has its own trajectory too, depending on its density/weight and aerodynamics/casing.

So, when you drop at low altitude and high speed the bombs drop parallel enough that they can skip on the water, but dropping from low speed or high altitude means the bomb reaches a point where it is falling almost vertically, with very limited forward motion. Aaaand, if not accounted for, results in the bombs impacting short of the target just like we've seen so many times.

What happens is that the higher we go, the shorter the bombs will fall unless there is an offset adjustment in the sight that compensates by changing the release angle.
As usual, there's a mathematical formula for this and it depends on a few factors, so knowing one part of it would enable the sight to calculate the rest. You might see it referred to as trail in the RAF CSBS sight (the Blenheim one) and US sights, some later RAF sights used by night bombers had a terminal velocity setting (the bomb's terminal velocity) and the Lofte had the so called Rьcktriftwinkel adjustment.

The thing is, it's taken care of automatically by the sim in the Blenheim and i never assumed it would be any different for other aircraft.
Well, a couple of people from Germany who can read the manuals were posting that this adjustment feature is completely missing from the in-game Lofte sight and that's the reason we miss from high altitude, while people who drop from 1-2km or so have no problem scoring hits (the effects of friction on the bombs are less pronounced when they have less time to travel, so low alt drops can still score hits).

One guy compared with the official manuals where an example is given: if the bombardier forgets to adjust for air resistance, at a specific alt and speed the bombs fall 250 meters short of the target. He tested it in the sim and it was consistently 250 meters short. So we're probably missing this adjustment.

There is no simple work-around either, because this is not a linear adjustment. If we knew it was 250 meters off at all altitudes, we could simply learn how to measure 250 meters from within the bombsight scope (how many degrees a point moves down the sight at a given altitude and within a given time, with a stopwatch). However, this adjustment is probably of an exponential, logarithmic or other non-linear nature.

The other thing, which is good, is that the sight doesn't need TAS, it was able to calculate it if you would input IAS and altitude, so it would simplify things a bit once corrected.

In any case, the good thing is that we made some noise about this and Luthier is going to get pointed to the thread. I told Blacksix that they can contact me with PMs and email if they want to. As you can see, if we get a patch on Friday i really want this fix to be in the patch :D

Now about your wind question, i'm not entirely sure what you do once you determine wind direction and strength, but i roughly know how to calculate drift (in theory, haven't practiced any actual mission with wind).
It has to do with the bombsight left/right adjustments in the sight but i'm not very familiar with it. The complicated way to do it (like the Blenheims would) is to use visual markers on the sight and a stopwatch to measure your speed over the ground (eg, that point on the ground moves 5 degrees in the sight in 10 seconds, etc). That's what the black and red parallel lines are on the Blenheim sight by the way. Then the pilot would turn to another heading and repeat. There were three methods for the CSBS but the most accurate and most time consuming was taking a ground speed calculation at three different headings, 120 degrees apart from each other. Then the navigator would construct a vector addition diagram (high school math stuff) and calculate wind direction and speed. That one would then be set into the bombsight by that compass you see on the base of the CSBS and another rotating knob for the wind speed, and this would turn the bombsight aiming arms left or right the required amount to compensate.

In the game, it's much simpler because we can directly move it left/right. Just pick an arbitrary point in the ground, look through the parallel wires and adjust the sight left/right until that point runs parallel through those wires. Similarly, in the Lofte you could do the same but use the vertical crosshairs line. It's similar to how we adjust TAS/alt for tracking the target, but this time we adjust for left/right motion instead for up/down.

I have a feeling that for automated gyroscopic sights like the Lofte, it all ties within the same modus operandi of "adjust parameters until the sight picture is steady". I definitely remember that when i was flying B-17 II: The mighty 8th by Micropose some years ago, i wasn't measuring any wind with the Norden bombsight (and the Lofte is almost a copy of the Norden with a few modifications to make it more reliable).
What i would do is read wind drift from a special scope in the navigator's position (a rotatable lens with dotted lines, you would rotate it until a feature on the ground ran parallel to the lines and read the drift off a scale on the side), input it in the sight and that's all. Then i would enter my altitude, look through the Norden scope and adjust it for TAS to get a steady picture.

Well, we say TAS a lot in this thread but actually it's GS (groundspeed). If there is no wind these two speeds coincide and that's why we roll with it, because we assume no wind in CoD. If there is wind, it's vector addition again: GS = TAS + wind speed. So, since the Norden knew drift, my altitude and my GS, it knew all it needed to know. I would then simply point the crosshairs on the target, engage the autopilot and the sight would fly the bomber to the target, correcting for wind by itself.

I think the Lofte is slightly different in that you have to manually steer the autopilot, but having the correct drift angle, altitude and GS would also result in an otherwise accurate drop.

MajorBorris
Jul-23-2012, 15:14
Great work gentleman, I hope our bombers finally get noticed by the dev team now!

Sure would be a waste of all those awesome objectives Wolf put together for us if they dont:cool:

Blackdog, I pulled this out of the pilots notes for fuel transfer and Hydraulics.

Fuel

2. use in special situations. (transfer pumping with the hand pump)

If the electrical transfer pump is out of action for one reason or other, it is possible to pump
manually the fuel from the forward fuselage tank and from the left and right outer fuel tanks to the left or right feeding tanks.
The fuel in the rearward fuselage tank and in jettisonable tanks cannot be pumped manually to the
feeding tanks.
The hand pump lever is located on the right fuselage wall down low at the frame 8a.
Manual pumping is performed by the machine gun operator, or by the wireless operator.
Pumping 300 litres manually will take :
at sea level ca. 20 minutes
at 4000m altitude ca. 25 minutes
Filling up signal has to be observed when pumping.

Transfer pumping order
a) both outer wing tanks
b) forward fuselage tank




Hydraulics

3. Hydraulic system

Hydraulic system configuration is such that when using several devices
simultaneously, only one of them functions at a time.
Using the so called “priority switch” makes it possible to always give priority to
undercarriage operation.
After each operation of hydraulic devices the operation switch has to be returned to 0-
position, i.e. middleposition, not including the dive break switch which only has the
positions “closed” (“Ein”) and “open” (“Aus”). In this case position “closed” (“Ein”) equals to
zero-position.


There was one time I thought the No#8 fuel cock auto deployed(unconfirmed)

I have tried the manual pump for fuel transfer several times but could never tell if it was working (takes awhile to pump it would seem)

I think an easy test would be to have a gunner on another bomber shoot the feeders while on the ground untill we get a good leak. We might need to know where the transfer pump is and destroy it to test the manual pump.

ATAG_Colander
Jul-23-2012, 15:48
W h a t ' s w i t h a l l t h e s p a c e s ?
:)

MajorBorris
Jul-23-2012, 16:29
ahh, I see.

That was a copy paste job:doh:

Let me see if I can fix that.

aus3620
Jul-24-2012, 08:24
Hi Blackdog,

Re our conversation about altimeter tuning and "ground level" characteristics. I hope I did it right, but I tuned the altimeter for Tramecourt, then flew to Le Touquet and Abbeville. The altimeter gave a reasonable performance for the different asl readouts. So there is asl factored into the geographical features, but I suspect this is not in the bombing programming. (Some comments added for completeness - not telling you to suck eggs!).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn1X5PhAY-w&feature=youtube_gdata

MajorBorris
Jul-24-2012, 16:29
Hi Aus3620,

Did you set the altimeter pressure for Tramecourt or the indicated alttitude?

Did either help?

Good luck!

Borris

aus3620
Jul-24-2012, 19:21
Hi MajorBoris,

At Tramecourt set altimeter according to "Felipe" list - 126 metres. The mbar reading went to 995 from 1000 when the altitude was adjusted. Then flew to the other two locations to see if the altimeter would adjust to the respective altitude above sea level (ASL). As you can see on the video, the altimeter did adjust (more or less) to the new locations. So ASL is modelled in the game. My suspicion is that ASL has fallen out of the level-bombing algorithm.

From your question I am wondering if I have missed a step re mbar adjustment?

When I spawned at Tramecourt the altimeter was reading 170 metres. So according to "Felipe" list (and Google), it was reading high by 40-50 metres. Is this critical re level-bombing? Understand that every bit helps to get a result, ie bombs on target. Wondering what is going to be the height above sea level in "BOM"? What sort of variation will we get there? If only 40-50 metres, is this an issue?

Certainly this is not a magic bullet as far as level bombing goes in the current patch. With the "metres to yards" conversion 4000 turns into 4374. Still looking for 300-odd metres!

I also tried the method using SC50's. They dropped short, so, as other posters have mentioned, the different types of bombs have different trajectories. Generally, my feeling is the he-111 is more developed in the game than the ju88, so I have moved to that to do any level bombing testing.

thx

aus3620
Jul-29-2012, 22:54
mbar reading - a little followup on the post about altimeter tuning. Spawned at Tramecourt, set altitude to 130m (closest to 126m), readout 994 mbar, both online and offline. Spawned at Maidstone (online) and set mbar to 994 mbar, altitude 280 feet (275 ft on table). So, your point re knowing the mbar setting and using that at any airfield appears to follow in game.

One other question about mbar reading. When tuning the altimeter mbar setting, at that point the mbar readout is correct for the altitude above sea level. As the aircraft gains height, should the mbar setting also adjust - ie lower mbar reading as height gained? Or is this a static setting?

VO101_Tom
Jul-31-2012, 08:12
Hi guys. I found this topic very interesting, I hope you take advantage of this documents:

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/images/icon_zip.jpg (http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/L.Dv.20-2_Bombenabwurf_Ju_87_u_Ju_88.rar) Bombenabwurf Ju 87 und Ju 88 L.Dv. 20-2 (http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/L.Dv.20-2_Bombenabwurf_Ju_87_u_Ju_88.rar)
Dive bombing training book for Ju 88 and Ju 87 types. (german)

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/images/icon_zip.jpg (www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/Ju_88_Manual_pack.zip) Ju 88 Manual pack (www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/Ju_88_Manual_pack.zip)
Original manuals, pilot books:
Ju 88 A Bedienungsvorschrift Abwurfwaffe BSB 700 (1941 Jan).pdf L.Dv.T.2300/5a
Ju 88 A Bedienungsvorschrift Abwurfwaffe ETC 50 (1943 Maj).pdf L.Dv.T.2300/5d
Ju 88 A Bedienungsvorschrift Abwurfwaffe SD2 (1941 Jan).pdf L.Dv.T.2300/5b
Ju 88 A Merkblatt.pdf
Ju 88 A-1 A-5 Flugzeug Handbuch Teil 12B (1941 Jun).pdf D.(Luft)T.840/1
Ju 88 A-1 Betriebsanleitung (1940 Mar).pdf - 313 page
Ju 88 A-1, A-5 Flugzeug Hadbuch Teil 9B (1941 Nov).pdf D.(Luft)T.2088 A-1, A-5
Ju 88 A-1, A-5 Flugzeug Hadbuch Teil 12A, 12D, 12F (1941 Jun).pdf D.(Luft)T.840/1
Ju 88 A-4 Bedienungsvorschrift (1941 Jul).pdf L.Dv.T.2088 A-4/Fl
Ju 88 A-4 D-1 Bedienungsvorschrift Schusswaffe (1941 Sep).pdf L.Dv.T.2088 A-4, D-1/Wa
Ju 88 A-4 Flugzeug Handbuch Teil 9C (1942 Jan).pdf Werkschrift 1034/9C
Ju 88 A-4 Exerzier-Karte (1940 Nov).pdf L.Dv.T.2088 A-4/Fl
Ju 88 D-5, D-5 Trop Flugzeug Handbuch Teil 9E (1942 Apr).pdf Werkschrift 2088 D-5, D-5 trop
Ju 88 G-1 Schusswaffenanlage (1943 Okt).pdf L.Dv.T.2088 G-1/Wa
Ju 88 S-1 Flugzeug Handbuch Teil 0-10 (1944 Jan).pdf Werkschrift 2088 S-1
Ju 88 Steuerungs Einstellung (1941 Nov).pdf
Ju 88 Flying Operations (english).pdf
Ju 88 G-1 Inspection of Captured Aircraft No. 242 (1944 Jul 16).pdf

S!
Tom

MajorBorris
Jul-31-2012, 16:45
Thanks Tom,

Welcome to the forums, was there a loft sight manual in there by chance?

Look forward to flying together in an epic mission in a sky filled with 88s:)

:flying:See ya in the air!




@Aus3620, I asked the same questions about the milibars setting on the altimeter.

Blackdog_kt
Jul-31-2012, 18:07
Hey, i've been away for a few days, mostly due to the heat wave here: it's impossible to sit in front of the PC for more than an hour, much less play a game that will make the graphics card work full blast and the fan blow hot air all over the room :D

However, i'm pleased to say that we probably got noticed. First of all, i got pointed to a somewhat older thread where the true nature of the Lofte bug had been revelead. It's missing the trail adjustment, that's all.
So, while the Blenheim sight correctly adjusts for the parabolic bomb trajectories (and does it automatically), the Lofte does not.

Bombs start falling parallel to the aircraft but the air resistance slows them down. At the same time, gravity pulls them downward. So, the longer they fly, the more vertical their trajectory gets while their horizontal motion tends to null. In other words, as you go to higher altitudes the bombs will "lag" behind the target, unless a suitable adjustment/calibration to the sight accounts for this whole thing. That was a manual setting in reality but in the sim it is done automatically: it's a bit too complicated to simulate, each type of bomb has its own setting so it's easier to code the bombsights to automatically adjust for each bomb. The Lofte was missing that adjustment. Beware my awesome MSPaint skills below that explain the whole trajectory issue: :D

888

Now the good news. First of all, Blacksix collected a list of questions from the latest update thread and submitted them to Luthier. The good news is that we made the question list (not just the bombsights, but the entire bomber bugs thread i had compiled a while ago) and according to Luthier, the team is aware of all these bugs. The not so good news was that the guy who works on these systems was busy with other aircraft at the time.

But then, in the thread were news from sukhoi.ru are posted, i saw this little gem:

Posted by naryv
Repaired the forest is not drawn away, "transparent materials" in some cabs, corrected the "yellow earth" away, "strange transparent" water, added optimized rendering effects, the one that showed in the screenshots, small decals back injury, fixed german bomb sights, nezavodyaschiesya harikeyny and Spitfire. This is perhaps the main one.

The transparent water is probably the bug in the latest beta where shallow water (rivers and coastal areas) incorrectly renders as sand when looking through the bombsight (doesn't happen on all PCs). The yellow earth is probably the sudden drop of texture detail outside the LOD-distance around the player's viewpoint. Both of these corrections will make navigation (especially at higher altitudes) much easier.

And finally, they say they fixed the Lofte. I really hoped they would delay the patch a couple of days to give us working bombsights,well, it appears that's exactly what happened.

Fingers crossed of course because you never know what else might pop up, but assuming we get a patch this week i'd say we're good to go. Gear up and warm up your engines gentlemen :thumbsup:

aus3620
Jul-31-2012, 19:52
Well done Blackdog on promoting the "Bomber" cause! Getting a result as soon as the next patch is a welcome surprise! - (fingers crossed as you say!)

Thx Tom for the manuals! If only I could read Geman! Looks like the Google translator might get a run.

Doc
Jul-31-2012, 20:27
If you have an Android or iPhone download the E6B pilot data app. Lots of easy conversion goodies in it. :thumbsup:

Free to.

If you have a Blackberry...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

VO101_Tom
Jul-31-2012, 21:38
Thanks Tom,
Welcome to the forums, was there a loft sight manual in there by chance?
Look forward to flying together in an epic mission in a sky filled with 88s:)
:flying:See ya in the air!


Hi.
I look through my folders and found these documents, which maybe usable in level bombing:
http://www.pumaszallas.hu/images/icon_zip.jpg (www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/Bombenabwurf_pack.rar) Bombenabwurf pack (www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/Bombenabwurf_pack.rar)

Level bombing manual:
Der Bombenabwurf (1941 Apr) L.Dv. 8-1
Der Bombenabwurf (1940 Jan) L.Dv. 8-5

Couple of Lotfe documents
Lotfernrohr 7C Beschreibung (Jan 1941) D.(Luft) T.7001
Lotfe Datenblatter
Abwurfrechengerдt AR 2 und AR 3

Sadly, i didn't find any BZG-2 operation manual (exept the B.abwurf documents, there is mentioned). The Lotfe 7 is similar to 'Norden', it was used in Ju 88 and He 111 too. In the Clod the Ju 88 A-1 use BZG-2 (Bomben Ziel Gerдt 2)

Marmus
Jul-31-2012, 21:56
oh man....awesome stuff!!!

MajorBorris
Aug-01-2012, 10:51
Fixed the bomb sights?

Well that is fantastic:thumbsup:

We are going to have some fun with the bombers now.

I cant wait to see a 20 bomber formation!

ATAG_Colander
Aug-01-2012, 15:19
I cant wait to see a 20 bomber formation!

With wind!

Marmus
Aug-01-2012, 15:41
That last batch of PDF manuals appears to have some really good bombing theory information! The kind of stuff I love to learn about....

This one is kind of obvious, once you see it in a diagram....the release angle should be different for a single bomb as opposed to a series of bombs. The length of series distribution will also affect the release angle. Does the automated system take this into account? (I have only translated a portion of this diagram so far.)

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/1999/abwurfrechengereatar2un.jpg

Edit - on my drive home I realized the stupidity of my question....you just need to remember to Target where you want the first bomb to hit. More bomber theory than ju-88 tutorial issue. Good graphic anyway. Lol

VO101_Tom
Aug-01-2012, 17:37
Edit - on my drive home I realized the stupidity of my question....you just need to remember to Target where you want the first bomb to hit. More bomber theory than ju-88 tutorial issue. Good graphic anyway. Lol

No, it's not a stupid question, there is no guarantee, that you can calculate the accurate distances on the ground. The lotfe optic has no such a metric scale, or something.
Meanwhile i found an another pdf (sorry, big folders :D), it's rather interesting than useful (it listing the various bomb types). The second half of the book more interesting, where different images shows the destructive effects of bombs... the SC250 broke in half the Destroyer...
http://www.pumaszallas.hu/images/icon_zip.jpg (http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/Handwerkzeug_Bombenwurf.rar) Handwerkzeug Bombenwurf (http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/docs/Handwerkzeug_Bombenwurf.rar)

Doc
Aug-03-2012, 14:48
Unfortunately I am not able to get to my computer at the moment. How are sights now? :geek:

Blackdog_kt
Aug-03-2012, 16:06
I just did a very rough test, only a quick and dirty run. Two waypoints in the FMB, an 88 loaded up and spawning at 300km/h and 5km of altitude (to check if the sights properly adjust for bomb trajectories).

Well, my run was very very sloppy and there's a load of things i could have done better, BUT...my bombs fell approximately where i wanted them to fall :thumbsup:
I had a slight drift to the right that i didn't account for, so i missed the Manston runway but half of them still fell within the airfield perimeter (the rest dropped further out because i had set a 10m bomb interval).

The way it is, it looks the best way to do it is to:

1) line up from quite a bit out

2) trim for level flight while in course autopilot mode

3) use R22 autopilot mode only to line up the target with rudder (it still results in a diving attitude)

4) once target is lined up, revert to course autopilot to level out the plane

5) small adjustments can be made with course AP as well, despite the fact that it uses ailerons to turn: if you only tap the left/right key once and let it settle (ie, 1-2 degree turns), it's workable

6) input IAS and altitude and engage automation

7) assuming a steady altitude, play with the IAS value until the sight tracks steadily

8) set your bomb pattern options (series, bomb interval, etc), arm them, open the bay doors and wait

I think that in a proper mission where i have time to set up, trim the aircraft and settle into it (instead of spawning mid-air and fumbling to set radiators, superchargers and everything else), it will be possible to really bomb with great accuracy.

P.S. The sudden drop in terrain texture quality at long range has been corrected (helps loads with navigation), as well as the visual/graphics glitches in the bombsight (see-through water and clouds showing through the scope are gone). The sight symbology is still off though: proper indication of sight angle but no indication of release angle, so wingmen will have to watch you and drop when they see your bombs start falling.

All in all, looks much better than before. I'm going out to hit a couple of bars, but tomorrow i'll do some extensive testing. You guys start practicing and maybe tomorrow we'll do a formation run :thumbsup:

aus3620
Aug-03-2012, 22:41
Well, 1.08 was worth the extra week from the original report! (IMHO)

Tested with my "Biggin Hill" mission, Single Player mode, no wind.
Used the standard procedure with metric chart, lofte steady on target, etc.

He-111 and JU88 - used SC50 with JU88 - previously they were falling shorter than SC250.

Did not adjust for target above sea level height - straight altimeter input.

JU88 bombsight view improved.

Bombs still explode "backwards!"

Good hits with both missions.

Looks like excellent progress for blue level-bombing to date, not perfect, but the important bit re lofte application looks fixed.

Hope to test on ATAG soon.

Marmus
Aug-03-2012, 22:54
I actually achieved level flight, it took a while to settle in and I dropped about 400m from initial altitude, but then it held level....I had 40% fuel. This is my first test of it....so no idea if it is due to patch or not.

Blackdog_kt
Aug-04-2012, 15:51
I did some more tests just now. I made an airstart mission in the FMB with 35% fuel (i think that's what i set it to) and a full bomb load (both bays full of SC50s and four SC250s externally). Apparently, with 75% pitch (2100 RPM) and 80% throttle (about 1.3 Ata with the superchargers at high gear), it almost stabilizes.

The spawn is at 5km but until i can set trims and everything from the default values, i'm down to 4k or so. Then, engaging R22 while at a somewhat high speed (320-340km/h IAS) results in the aircraft stabilizing in a slight descent of about 1m/sec. This can be accounted for easily by periodically looking at the instruments and adjusting bombsight altitude every 20-30 meters of lost altitude. A ballpark value for ground speed at that altitude and IAS is 370-380km/h (i didn't use tables, just engaged automation and played around with it until the sight stabilized in the vertical axis).

The interesting thing is that i also found how to account for drift. In my first run i was a bit out of trim when i engaged the autopilot but instead of correcting it, i thought i might see how drift works and well, it works just fine :thumbsup:

What you do is move the bombsight sideways (controls: bombsight left/right) in the direction of the drift, not opposite to it. The idea is that the crosshairs should point where the bombs will impact. If you adjust for drift in this way, at some point you will see that with automation engaged the sideways motion of the sight is negated.

So it's a two step process really: adjust speed value to get a static sight picture in the vertical axis (target doesn't drift above or below crosshairs), then adjust drift value to get a static picture in the horizontal axis(target doesn't drift left or right of the crosshairs). It's very easy to judge, because we have the sight lines, just see if a ground feature near the lines moves parallel to them (correct drift) or tends to cross them (needs adjustment).

After all these adjustments are done, your aiming point (the crosshairs center) will have of course drifted off target. You can then command some slight turns with the autopilot in R22 mode to align the crosshairs with what you want to hit. This is your final correction.

After all is done, you should go back to the pilot's seat and adjust for the dropping altitude every 20-30 meters lost, switch to bombsight view and confirm the sight still tracks correctly.

At some point between 30 and 40 degrees of bombsight angle, the bombs release.

In my tests i used a series release with a spread of 1 meter. This creates a much bigger spread due to the bombs drifting, which is more pronounced the higher the altitude you drop from. A spread of 1 meter worked well for the airfield i was targeting.

I also found out why some people report backwards exploding bombs. The bombs are correctly modeled with regards to their different densities. All bombs fall with the same acceleration in a vacuum, but through the air the denser/heavier bombs have an advantage because they can penetrate the air easier. This is the same reason that gliders carry water ballast: a lighter glider climbs better in a thermal, but a heavier glider can attain higher airspeeds. So, glider pilots load water ballast and they have a jettison valve to dump some of it if they need more climb rate at the expense of forward speed.

What happens in the sim is the same thing. I think it's the forward bomb bay that drops first, then the rear bay and then the externals (SC250s). Well, the SC250s overtake the lighter bombs and finally impact at about the same time as the SC50s from the forward bay, while the SC50s from the rear bay impact last. This creates the effect of a backwards moving string of explosions, but it's not a bug.

It would be a bug if we released a stick of the same type of bombs (eg, only the internal SC50s in the 88, or 8 SC250s in the 111) and we saw the explosions moving backwards. However, in my tests i observed that bombs of the same type (the SC50s in the bomb bays) which drop at similar speeds, correctly explode in the sequence of impact.

All in all, i'm very very pleased with my findings, huge thumbs up to 1C for their work in this.:thumbsup:

You can see some of what i'm talking about in the attached track file.

ATAG_Septic
Aug-04-2012, 16:00
Thanks for this Blackdog, your explanation is very helpful. All this bombing malarky still reminds me of the time someone tried to teach me how to use a slide-rule, complete bafflement.

I'll persevere.

Thanks again,

Septic.

Blackdog_kt
Aug-04-2012, 17:08
Don't mention it. I like tinkering and when you discover things, you naturally want to tell other people of your findings :D

I am very low on hard disk space and my system is mid to low spec, otherwise i would try my hand at recording a video tutorial or two. It's actually much easier doing the whole thing than typing a description for it :thumbsup:

So, now that we can actually aim bombs on target, i think it's time to start thinking tactics. It's ok that we can get the aim point and the spacing we want, but what about our wingmen?

First of all, the bombsight symbology is probably in need of further tweaking. There is a triangular marker that denotes the release point based on the speed and altitude values we enter to the sight. There is also a moving marker (again, triangular) that denotes the current angle the bombsight is pointing at. The angle marker indicates correctly, but the release marker does not move. This makes it difficult to pinpoint when your bombs will release, so wingmen have to watch your aircraft and press their bomb release button as soon as they see your first bombs dropping.

If the release marker worked, we would be able to anticipate the bomb release (they drop when the angle marker coincides with the value of the release marker) and just call "bombs away" over teamspeak. Since we can't, our best bet is to inform our wingmen about the approximate time of release so that they can look at our aircraft and release when they see us do the same. For the kind of altitudes and speeds we use (300-330km/h IAS and 4-6 km of altitude) the bombsight release angle is between 30 and 40 degrees. So, the next best thing is to just call out on teamspeak "release imminent" when we see the angle marker reach that zone in the bombsight markings. For more accuracy, run the good old bombsight table application on a separate monitor/device (if you have one) and input your IAS and alt values, it should give you the release angle. So, as you see the bombsight angle marker approach that value, you can just call out "release imminent" on TS.

Now for the pattern. Bombs spread apart quite a bit as they fall. Using a 10 meter spread half of my bombs fell outside the target airfield, even though i was aiming at the middle of it. I use a series pattern with 1m intervals, which gives a good balance between explosive concentration and target coverage for airfields. Of course, this choice depends on the target as well as the amount of bombs we are carrying. Few bombs and big intervals will result in too low a concentration, while many bombs and big intervals will result in walking the bombs outside the target. Ideally, we want to evenly spread our bombs across the target.

Attacking an airfield, we want to walk the bombs across the target to do as much damage to the runways as possible. I assume you guys know that craters damage aircraft taxing over them, right? We can actually make the simple act of taking off a pain for the opposing team :) So, in that case we use a bomb spread of 1m.

Attacking a thin, elongated target along its long axis might justify using bigger intervals. Attacking the same target across its narrow axis requires almost no interval at all, in fact at high altitudes (4km and above) i suppose that the bomb drift itself will be enough so a salvo release (instead of series) would be preferable.

The same hold true for compact targets, like a railway marshaling yard or a factory building.

But assuming we do want a series release pattern, how do we ensure our wingmen get the same pattern so that we can get some nice carpet bombing going? It's easy. The intervalometer in the bombsight receives as inputs the desired bomb impact interval in meters and uses our bombsight alt and speed values to calculate the needed time interval between individual bomb releases.
In short, just communicate your bomb release and bombsight settings to your wingmen. If they have the same alt, speed and bomb distance interval dialed in their bombsights, their bombs should release with the same time interval.

So, once you get your bombsight calibrated and it's tracking steady, just announce the relevant data over teamspeak as you fly through the bomb run.

First, you communicate the bomb settings because you have a good idea of what you'll use in advance. Assuming we are attacking an airfield, once the final turn to target was made (we are over the IP - initial point) we would make a call like the following:

"Flight, set bomb release mode: series, length of series: infinite, bomb interval: 1m and select all bomb bays"

This will drop all of our bombs in a line pattern, to cover as much of the airfield surface as possible. I have tried a 10m spread and it was too much, 1m is good but doesn't cover the entire airfield. Maybe a 5m spread would be best, probably with a few bombs falling outside the target, but i haven't tried it yet.

Then, once we are on the bomb run and we have sighted the target, we call out:

"Flight, open bomb bays"

A couple of minutes later our bombsight is properly calibrated so we make the relevant call:
"Flight, set bombsight speed: 380km/h, bombsight alt: 4000m"

Nearing the target our bombsight scope will be pointing lower and lower. Any last minute corrections in bombsight speed and altitude should also be communicated to the flight. If we are in a staggered formation however, aircraft have quite a bit of altitude difference. So the call could be:

"Flight, set bombsight speed: 370km/h and bombsight alt to your indicated".

In any case, as we near the target and certainly quite a bit before the expected angle of release, we have to call
"Flight, arm bombs"

Finally, once we near the release angle
"Flight, bomb release imminent (x2 maybe for emphasis :D )"

From that point on we just keep on the autopilot until the bombs drop and our wingmen are looking at our aircraft to see when we drop so they can do the same.

The automation doesn't disengage when bombs are dropped but when the sight reaches its lowest possible angle. However, we'll know when the bombs are gone because as the sight keeps tracking down we can see them through the scope. Alternatively, from the pilot's seat we can watch the VSI: once bombs are gone, the aircraft starts climbing slightly with R22 autopilot still engaged. At that point we can disengage AP, call out the turn to next waypoint (eg, "flight, turn right, heading 150 magnetic") and start our egress.

Once established on the return leg the leader can engage autopilot again to lessen his workload (he has to navigate the formation back home). The wingmen however fly the entire raid on manual piloting because they need to maintain formation.

*Helo*
Aug-04-2012, 21:56
Hey Guys I got a simpel question concerning the Ju-88. Every time I hit the drop ordance button, the plane releases one bomb from the bomb bay and then the bombbay then the bomb bay automatically closes itself. How can I prevent that or Drop everything I have ( Bomb bays + Bombs below the wings) at the same time ?

Blackdog_kt
Aug-04-2012, 22:29
You need to map joystick buttons or keys to some functions.

I don't remember their exact names in the options, but i'll give you a description of what they do.

First of all, you need to be able to select your bomb bays. The Ju88 has three weapon stations: forward bay, rear bay and external racks. So, the available options when you cycle through it are bay #1, bay #2, bay #3, all. I think 1 is forward, 2 is rear, 3 is external and when all are selected they also drop in that sequence.

Then you need to select how the bombs will drop: salvo (drops everything), single (drops one) or series.

Series is a bit more complicated as well. You can select how many bombs there will be in the series, from 1 to infinite (which drops everything in the selected bays). Then you can also decide how far apart the bombs will fall. You can set the bomb interval function for this, the settings are in meters.

In order for the interval to work however, you need to have your TAS (true airspeed) and your altitude at the time of release dialed into your bombsight controls, so you need to map the relevant controls for them as well. Then, the bombsight "sees" the speed and altitude you input and calculates how much time needs to pass before releasing each bomb, so that each bomb will fall as many meters as you specified (with the interval setting) after the previous one. Just take into account that bombs "jiggle" and drift as they fall as well, so you don't need to use a big interval in most cases (usually less than 10 meters). The higher you go, the more the bombs will spread out while falling, even if you release them all at once in a salvo.

Hope it helps :D

*Helo*
Aug-04-2012, 23:26
Thx for the help balckdog. Works now as intended.

aus3620
Aug-04-2012, 23:33
For the basics read p.79-82 of the CLoD manual.
Then read Blackdog's post here.

Series - For skip-bombing, one at a time.

Salvo - Level bombing (generally this is the case).

aus3620
Aug-08-2012, 04:00
Hi.

Level bombing manual:
Der Bombenabwurf (1941 Apr) L.Dv. 8-1
Der Bombenabwurf (1940 Jan) L.Dv. 8-5



Der bombenabwurf looks interesting. Anyone know if there is an English translation?

Marmus
Aug-08-2012, 07:57
I have tried to translate some stuff via Google Translate, but the font is a killer!

VO101_Tom
Aug-08-2012, 11:45
I have tried to translate some stuff via Google Translate, but the font is a killer!

Hi. Yes, sadly the common OCR programs don't handle this font (German "Fraktur"). I looking for programs, something similar than ABBY historic OCR (http://www.abbyy-developers.eu/en:tech:features:old_font_recognition#gothic_frakt ur_ocr), but i have no luck yet...

Marmus
Aug-08-2012, 12:10
Hi. Yes, sadly the common OCR programs don't handle this font (German "Fraktur"). I looking for programs, something similar than ABBY historic OCR (http://www.abbyy-developers.eu/en:tech:features:old_font_recognition#gothic_frakt ur_ocr), but i have no luck yet...

I have been typing it in myself, and I can't even read the font!! I can't image an OCR able to do it. For example, their "s" looks like an "f" or "l"...drove me crazy until I figured it out!

Doc
Aug-08-2012, 12:32
I've been playing with Mode 22 and I got the thing to actually level out using a touch of flap. I had to play with it for a while though. So much playing I went past my target. But I was amazed that I was able to hold steady altitude at 260-270 speed. You need to get to altitude and heading well before doing it. But I got it to straighten up and fly right. I will experiment more.

ATAG_Septic
Aug-08-2012, 12:55
I've begun practicing without the autopilot, the aircraft trims well enough, I think? Or, am I deluding myself? The results seem no worse for me so far anyway. :)

Septic.

aus3620
Aug-08-2012, 20:38
That Font!
Yeah! That font is a killer! It is hard enough when you have a good font then go to Google Translate! Thanks for the font type Tom. Shame, because it looks like interesting reading.

Flying Level
Doc - Have you experimented with loadout? The heavier the load the more sink rate I get is my impression. With 10/18 I can get to very minor sink rate, eventually. My impression from current advice is there is a speed component to R22 mode - the mode tries to get the aircraft to a certain speed, or the mode only trims accurately at a certain speed. Don't know which is true, if any!

Did a brief test with 10% fuel and empty bomb-bay. 1. match auto-pilot course. 2. attain 310kmh. 3. engage R22. Slight dip, but quickly, < 1min, maintained level flight.
10% fuel, 18/10 bomb-bay. ditto test 1. Basically the same result - reasonable level flight under 1 min. The key, I think, is to get to 310-20 kmh (push stick forward slightly to accelerate if required), then engage R22.
I'm pretty sure Blackdog mentioned something like this elsewhere. Be interested if you could try that as well.

Septic - I tried that the other day with Autopilot Course and you can get a pretty good trim result I thought. It was flying okay so I thought why tempt fate by changing to R22!

At this stage I have to start "the run" from a long way out so everything is organised at the drop. Makes it difficult when you have to guess where the target is because of late spawning!

Torric270
Oct-25-2012, 00:29
Since Tom added some flight manuals (Thanks!) I have been looking for Ju 88 pilot notes directly from the source that give engine settings to see if they match the red, yellow, and green lines on the ata and rpm gauges. This leaflet seems to get the closest with all the info in one spot. Ju88 A-1/A-5.

1085

II/JG53_Felix
Oct-25-2012, 05:27
You may find this document of interest.

http://www.raafsquad.com/cliffs/ju88/draftpaper.htm

III./ZG76_Keller
Oct-25-2012, 15:34
If you have a Blackberry...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


:guilty:

MajorBorris
Nov-23-2012, 13:07
You may find this document of interest.

http://www.raafsquad.com/cliffs/ju88/draftpaper.htm

Great job on the Ju88 Guide guys, I can tell you both realy took your time to make something pilots will appreciate for years to come.

Thanks!

LG1.Klein
Feb-01-2013, 15:39
Great job on the Ju88 Guide guys, I can tell you both realy took your time to make something pilots will appreciate for years to come.

Thanks!

Can you link it back to here? Work won't let me get there. Also, any updates? I am trying to learn the Ju88 and know there have been some patches. So what of all these pages is relevant to the most recent patch?

Thank you.

Marmus
Feb-05-2013, 08:51
Can you link it back to here? Work won't let me get there. Also, any updates? I am trying to learn the Ju88 and know there have been some patches. So what of all these pages is relevant to the most recent patch?

Thank you.

Sadly, I have hung up my joysticks for the time being and I am no longer flying.

PDF can be found here: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3qddkq0dnk8wzfx

Felix may be able to help you, if you have questions.

ATAG_Snapper
Feb-06-2013, 19:39
Hi everyone!

I've "stickied" this thread to keep it a little more accessible. I should've done this many months ago.....my bad. :(

It seems to still be current, though, so better late than ever. :D

Please let me know if this thread remains relevant/up to date once the upcoming Team Fusion patch is released.

Thanks,

Snapper

Marmus
Mar-20-2013, 13:21
How is this bad boy handling after the TF patch? Anybody? I have not had much time to fly lately....any changes needed to the guides? How does the variable pitch effecting flight? I did have a problem taxiing the first time in....I may have adjusted the pitch by accident.

II/JG53_Volker
Mar-20-2013, 14:17
Take one for a spin Marmus...

I think you will like it even more now, much improved:thumbsup:

~S~

Volker

Torric270
Mar-20-2013, 20:19
How is this bad boy handling after the TF patch? Anybody? I have not had much time to fly lately....any changes needed to the guides? How does the variable pitch effecting flight? I did have a problem taxiing the first time in....I may have adjusted the pitch by accident.

I'm having a blast flying it by the book (using climb and cruise settings) I switched the pitch control to the throttle slider. After takeoff, I put throttle to 40%, flip the supercharger on (auto mode) and fly up to 3500m before I have to touch the throttle again adjusting for 2300 rpm the whole way up.

About the only other major change is throttling back and pitching back when in a dive to control rpm. Oh, except for level bombing at 6000m :)

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Mar-20-2013, 20:22
I'm having a blast flying it by the book (using climb and cruise settings) I switched the pitch control to the throttle slider. After takeoff, I put throttle to 40%, flip the supercharger on (auto mode) and fly up to 3500m before I have to touch the throttle again adjusting for 2300 rpm the whole way up.

About the only other major change is throttling back and pitching back when in a dive to control rpm. Oh, except for level bombing at 6000m :)

Damn, give a guy some real life performance and see what he does with it... :-P

Killerwhale
May-14-2013, 20:23
Turn Bombsight left/right wont work for me, i have it mapped to CTRL+LEFT/RIGHT. i can see the numbers on screen, but no move right or left effect, decrease/increase speed or alt works fine. any help?

Bear Pilot
May-15-2013, 01:00
As far as I know, that's just the way it is in the 88. In the 111 it works fine. I find it's more accurate to just get the plane flying without any noticeable slip and avoid accounting for it in the sight on the bomb run. Other than that it's sometimes useful to move the sight from right to left when searching for targets but I find that most of the time if I need to do that then I'm too far off target to hit it on that run anyway. So in the 88 I consider the inability to look from side to side via that function a luxury I can do without.

Happy Hunting

Bear Pilot

Torric270
May-15-2013, 02:47
Turn Bombsight left/right wont work for me, i have it mapped to CTRL+LEFT/RIGHT. i can see the numbers on screen, but no move right or left effect, decrease/increase speed or alt works fine. any help?

This was removed in the developers final patch, no explanation was given so we will probably never know why they did it.

Little_D
May-15-2013, 10:37
Hi gents,

since i am new to the Ju-88, i read this thread and try bombing on my own (After i programed 60 orders to my x52 to fly here without the keyboard) :D and have now some questions:

1. why i have to set my altmeter to the high of the base?
2. why i have to compare alt and speed from meters and km/h to feet and mph (or is this only for the non german version)?

regards

Little_D

Torric270
May-15-2013, 11:14
Hi gents,

since i am new to the Ju-88, i read this thread and try bombing on my own (After i programed 60 orders to my x52 to fly here without the keyboard) :D and have now some questions:

1. why i have to set my altmeter to the high of the base?
2. why i have to compare alt and speed from meters and km/h to feet and mph (or is this only for the non german version)?

regards

Little_D

This thread goes back to the beginning when there were a lot of bugs, so most does not apply now.

Before TF patch the atmospheric pressure would change in mission so u would have set alt for your home air field before taking off for a accurate bomb run

Check TF wiki for more up to date guides, link at the top of the page in yellow band

Roblex
May-15-2013, 12:26
Does anybody know if the following items work in the Ju-88?

<snip>

4. pitot tube heater - do they do anything? are they needed? future use, maybe? or just needed at higher altitudes?
<snip>

Thanks.

I am guessing it does. I did a search for 'Pitot' and found a Steam announcement from October 2012 that mentions


* Reworked the way altimeter reacts to pitot icing;


http://store.steampowered.com/news/?appids=63950

Killerwhale
May-16-2013, 01:35
This was removed in the developers final patch, no explanation was given so we will probably never know why they did it.

how can you line up with your target then, any suggestions, thanks for the reply by the way

Torric270
May-16-2013, 01:57
how can you line up with your target then, any suggestions, thanks for the reply by the way

By using everything at your disposal. Planning your route so you know where the target should be. If your not very familiar with the targets, take a 109 or 110 and do some recon runs to see what they look like, how they are oriented, from which direction will give you the best approach, and what the terrain looks like that they are sitting in.

Seeing it from the pilot's, bombardier's (with and without the bomb sight), &/or nose gunner's position (both in and out of leaning to gun sight and moving the gun left and right) to help get it lined up in the bomb sight.

Taking note of where the target lines up from the pilot's position to where it ends up in the bomb sight for future flights, then u should be able to line it up every time, even if it's just the patch of land that the target is in.

Hope this helps.

Roblex
May-16-2013, 04:21
how can you line up with your target then, any suggestions, thanks for the reply by the way

Personally I have never used the option of adjusting the bombsight right & left anyway. It is there so you can adjust for a crosswind and ATAG is not using winds. You sound like you want to use it to locate the target. When looking ahead with more than a minute to target you can see a very wide area of land so if you are pointed even roughly in the direction of your target then you wont need to look sideways because you will see the target (or at least the approximate place it is) and can adjust your heading to be exactly on target. If you are so far off target that you need to look sideways then you should not be in the bombsight yet! :D If you are much closer and thus have the sight looking down more and can see less either side and the target is outside your view then you would not be able to get onto target quick enough anyway.

Roblex
May-16-2013, 08:32
Look, I know I am just incredibly thick but....

Does anyone have a single mission that will allow me to practice level bombing in a JU88? I have tried making my own but I must be doing something wrong because even though the loadout screen says I have all bomb bays full of bombs and wings as well, I am unable to select any bomb bays and even though I have armed the bombs and open the bomb bay doors, nothing is coming out using automated drop or manual drop.

Someone out there must have a simple mission they use to practise using the bombsight. Any chance of letting me have a copy? An airstart a few minutes out at 350ish and 2000-3000m would be ideal.

EDIT: Don't worry, I stole some bits from a mission I knew had a full bomb load and transplanted it to my test mission and all is dropping OK. Now I just need to work out why I am missing by so much :-)

Marmus
Dec-09-2013, 12:10
It has been a long time since I looked at this....aus3620 and I wrote this Ju-88 A-1 guide for our squad...which is now defunct.

All information is from last 1C Official Patch....nothing has been updated since Team Fusion patches have been released.

I leave a link to "view" document. Not sure I have the energy to update....

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14qXmqKt4cihUUYeIeubX90xzI_IomoArDoX54uVZVGM/edit?usp=sharing

http://imageshack.us/a/img713/1141/soi3.jpg

9./JG52_J-HAT
Dec-09-2013, 14:06
I've read that one. Very good stuff!

1lokos
Dec-09-2013, 19:22
It has been a long time since I looked at this....aus3620 and I wrote this Ju-88 A-1 guide for our squad...which is now defunct.

All information is from last 1C Official Patch....nothing has been updated since Team Fusion patches have been released.

I leave a link to "view" document. Not sure I have the energy to update....

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14qXmqKt4cihUUYeIeubX90xzI_IomoArDoX54uVZVGM/edit?usp=sharing

http://imageshack.us/a/img713/1141/soi3.jpg

Marmus,

Is very well done manual, thank you.

Now only the flaps management does not match with the current system (proportional).

JHAT,

You figured out for what is the last position of flap lever position, in real Ju-88? I am curious with this thing. :D

Sokol1

9./JG52_J-HAT
Dec-10-2013, 12:20
Hey Sokol,

To say the truth I read the manual you uploaded but couldn't find anything except for there is an actuator system for the stabilizers. I tried to look for the pilots manual but wasn't successful. I then had forgot about it :)

Edit: 4.19 there is a sentence saying that when you drop flaps, the horizontal stabilizers are adjusted to prevent changing the planes attitude. As your nose drops when you drop flaps, I assumenit moves the stabilizers front side down. It only works if you drop flaps using the option flaps and stabilizers. This is confirmed in 4.28. The ailerons are extended also when you drop flaps either way. The option with stabilizers should only be used for landing.

Killerwhale
Apr-03-2014, 10:25
I need help please, i've followed tutorials of how to set up autopilot but to no avail.
Here is how it set it up

8780

1. arrow number 1, my heading is 328 degrees (runway heading)
2. arrow number 2, i entered 328 in the course autopilot preset
3. arrow number 3, i also entered 328 in the gyro.

after take off, i engage autopilot and the plane flies to 120 degrees instead of 328

EG14_Marcast
Apr-03-2014, 10:53
I need help please, i've followed tutorials of how to set up autopilot but to no avail.
Here is how it set it up

8780

1. arrow number 1, my heading is 328 degrees (runway heading)
2. arrow number 2, i entered 328 in the course autopilot preset
3. arrow number 3, i also entered 328 in the gyro.

after take off, i engage autopilot and the plane flies to 120 degrees instead of 328

In the pic it seems that you set 360 both in the CAP and the gyro. Anyway, as long as CAP and gyro have the same values, the aircraft should keep its route when you engage the autopilot.

ATAG_Lolsav
Apr-03-2014, 10:57
I need help please, i've followed tutorials of how to set up autopilot but to no avail.

Maybe this can help you. The autopilot works same way in Heinkel of Ju88

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8237

Torric270
Apr-03-2014, 11:10
I need help please, i've followed tutorials of how to set up autopilot but to no avail.
Here is how it set it up

8780

1. arrow number 1, my heading is 328 degrees (runway heading)
2. arrow number 2, i entered 328 in the course autopilot preset
3. arrow number 3, i also entered 328 in the gyro.

after take off, i engage autopilot and the plane flies to 120 degrees instead of 328

From this pic, everything is on a course of North. #1 is read at the top, not where the airplane is pointing, that's the course setter than can be rotated seperately that doesn't change or affect the course in any way, think of it as a course reminder.

#2,3 are read at the middle line.

Step #1. Move your mouse over the gauge above #1 (repeater compass) and get a heading.

Step #2. Turn the directional gyro to match the repeater compass.

Step #3. Turn the AP course setter (not the other course setter) to the desired course. (328)

Step #4. Takeoff and turn to the aircraft to a heading of 328 read on repeater compass, re-align direction gyro to match repeater compass, hit AP

Killerwhale
Apr-03-2014, 13:49
can you make video as a tutorial, it just doesnt work for me. it would help if you did. it is very hard to get it to work. if you have it mastered ( i doubt) then please help with a video. I really like the junker 88 but flying is super hard

Ivank
Apr-03-2014, 17:15
Great job. Tried to download as PDF from inside Google docs but it didn't work. Any ideas ?

Marmus
Apr-03-2014, 17:33
Great job. Tried to download as PDF from inside Google docs but it didn't work. Any ideas ?

what are you trying to download? The Ju-88 guide I posted above? If so, try here PDF already: http://www.mediafire.com/view/3qddkq0dnk8wzfx/JU-88A-1Guide(7).pdf

1lokos
Apr-03-2014, 20:35
Great job. Tried to download as PDF from inside Google docs but it didn't work. Any ideas ?

File > Download as >

http://i60.tinypic.com/33ux4s1.jpg

Sokol1

Killerwhale
Apr-03-2014, 21:17
alright folks, I finally got it to work, you know I was hitting key"A" which is for engaging autopilot instead of course autopilot which i assigned to key"X". anyways, i got it working. Thanks for the help, I can finally bomb things, yeah!!!, but bombing is an issue of itself isnt? when i entered the bombsight, my pc crashed, argggggh

1lokos
Apr-03-2014, 21:25
Yes, know bug related with camera angles on bombsight.

1 - TrackIR solve this. :D

2 - NewView solve this. :D

3- Before hit the key for "Look at gunsight" press the key for "Reset camera" or "Look front". Every time.

Sokol1

Killerwhale
Apr-02-2015, 10:07
so is there anyway to control the loss of altitude when you engage autopilot?

ATAG_Lolsav
Apr-02-2015, 10:21
The plane will drop a lot of altitude for a bit and if you full trim nose up will recover altitude slowly (not to the max it was). If you enage mode 22 and full trim nose up the average of the drop is between 500 and 700 meters (depending on altitude).

The other way is to accelerate to 400 kms and after that engage autopilot (mode 22) - which i find hard to do.

Bottom line: Line up around 3 grids away from the target to give you plenty of room for final adjustments, for Bombsight, speed and altitude indicator.

Lucan
Aug-07-2015, 08:37
so is there anyway to control the loss of altitude when you engage autopilot?

Yes!!

Set landing flaps for approximately 18%,set mode 22 immediately.If the bounce appears cycle autopilot on off until no bounce.
You will lose minimal height compared to using no flaps with the added bonus of no bounce on bomb run!
Once stable you can retract the flaps to gain speed but this is when you will loose height quickly.I normally lift flaps to around 10% giving me a bombing speed of between 280 and 300 KPH IAS in level flight.

Hope this helps..

Lucan.

Gustav
Sep-24-2015, 20:45
Hello, I am new for CLOD, I am curious that do we have to take into accout the crosswind during level bombing. if yes how could we do it and how we get the wind information? I am suprised that the crosswind is not mentioned in Chuck's guide.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Sep-24-2015, 21:18
use the TAB menu for wind info...might vary map to map...but it does affect high alt bombing

Gustav
Sep-25-2015, 18:18
Hello Guys, I am wondering how to remove the front machinegun in cockpit?

Torric270
Sep-25-2015, 18:27
Hello Guys, I am wondering how to remove the front machinegun in cockpit?

On the load out screen under weapon sets, hit the down arrow next to the nose gun and pick empty.

Gustav
Sep-25-2015, 18:32
Nice, Thank you Torric270 for the quick reply:thumbsup:. BTW do you know if we have a way to deal with cross-wind in level-bombing in CloD? Thank you very much again.:salute:

Torric270
Sep-25-2015, 19:14
Nice, Thank you Torric270 for the quick reply:thumbsup:. BTW do you know if we have a way to deal with cross-wind in level-bombing in CloD? Thank you very much again.:salute:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9638&highlight=wind

For the most part these days I use +/- 3.5 for 2-3 m/s crosswinds in the Blenny and Br20.

I hope this helps.

Gustav
Sep-25-2015, 19:47
That's a definitely great help. Thank you Torric270:salute:

DRock
Sep-26-2015, 06:13
That's a definitely great help. Thank you Torric270:salute:

A good trick for high level bombing in strong wind is to come at the target from downwind or upwind, not crosswind.

If you are flying into a 10 mph headwind, simply raise the bombsight velocity by 10 mph to account for it.

Works great.:thumbsup:

9./JG52 Sturm
May-10-2016, 05:46
Got the course autopilot working to an extent. Any tips to reduce swinging from side to side across the bearing of travel? Happens as I'm making minor course corrections when the target starts coming into view and the autopilot doesn't seem to stabilise.

ATAG_Lolsav
May-10-2016, 05:57
Happens as I'm making minor course corrections when the target starts coming into view and the autopilot doesn't seem to stabilise.

And how you do those course corrections? With trimm or rudder/aileron?

9./JG52 Sturm
May-10-2016, 11:42
And how you do those course corrections? With trimm or rudder/aileron?

On autopilot, by changing the autopilot course dial. Say I've set for 300 to come into Hawkinge, but when nearer I need to adjust say to 305-310. Or in that situation should I just switch over to r22 mode? Currently if I make any changes the plane starts swinging either side of the desired heading.

ATAG_Lolsav
May-10-2016, 13:50
See answer from Torric below.

Have fun!

Torric270
May-10-2016, 22:16
On autopilot, by changing the autopilot course dial. Say I've set for 300 to come into Hawkinge, but when nearer I need to adjust say to 305-310. Or in that situation should I just switch over to r22 mode? Currently if I make any changes the plane starts swinging either side of the desired heading.

If coming in on mode 1, you can still use your joystick to control aileron and pitch control, this should help smooth out the big movements. Also, once the plane is somewhat settled down, make sure the ball is centered with aileron trim.

If on a bomb run, come in on mode 22 if you want a finer control and don't make too many big adjustments at a time. Also, for even more precise adjustments once in the bombsight, is to increase/decrease the directional gyro. This will give a smaller movement than the course AP.

9./JG52 Sturm
May-11-2016, 05:25
If coming in on mode 1, you can still use your joystick to control aileron and pitch control, this should help smooth out the big movements. Also, once the plane is somewhat settled down, make sure the ball is centered with aileron trim.

If on a bomb run, come in on mode 22 if you want a finer control and don't make too many big adjustments at a time. Also, for even more precise adjustments once in the bombsight, is to increase/decrease the directional gyro. This will give a smaller movement than the course AP.

Great, I'll try that. Also when on the bombrun (level @ 5k), on r22, after the initial dive and it levels out I've had the plane what I can only describe as bob up and down in the vertical, speed was fine so unsure what caused it. Made it really awkward to aim the bombsight.

III./ZG76_Saipan
May-11-2016, 06:31
try turning 22 off and on quickly..sometimes that helps with the bobbing up and down...or try a 111 :)

Torric270
May-11-2016, 14:44
Great, I'll try that. Also when on the bombrun (level @ 5k), on r22, after the initial dive and it levels out I've had the plane what I can only describe as bob up and down in the vertical, speed was fine so unsure what caused it. Made it really awkward to aim the bombsight.

Add a bit of flap along with what Saipan said, go in and out of 22 until it stops.

9./JG52 Sturm
May-12-2016, 03:56
Regards to all who have replied to my questions. Lastly for now, has anyone any general tips about how to manage a damaged JU88? e.g. damaged radiator/oil etc. Can you return to France with one engine? Picked up a load of damage on one engine on a recent flight and had no idea how to deal with it.

ATAG_Ezzie
May-12-2016, 05:38
You might find some useful info in this thread jameswgm

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21341&highlight=Engine

ATAG_Lolsav
May-12-2016, 07:22
@Dammaged engine question

Select that engine, set prop pitch to 8h30 to reduce drag, close both radiators (oil and water) and finally trimm out the plane to compensate the drift. Ju88 allows you to trimm the aileron which is really handy to keep it stable.

Now you only have one engine, make sure you dont over rev it or force it too much.

Most of the times, taking in account i still had height and was not beeing attacked anymore, i could nurse the ride back home. Its a challenge to do that.

Have fun!

9./JG52 Sturm
May-13-2016, 05:50
@Dammaged engine question

Select that engine, set prop pitch to 8h30 to reduce drag, close both radiators (oil and water) and finally trimm out the plane to compensate the drift. Ju88 allows you to trimm the aileron which is really handy to keep it stable.

Now you only have one engine, make sure you dont over rev it or force it too much.

Most of the times, taking in account i still had height and was not beeing attacked anymore, i could nurse the ride back home. Its a challenge to do that.

Have fun!

Managed to get back from England after one engine was disabled by a Spit, appreciate the advice.

DUI
May-13-2016, 10:22
@Dammaged engine question [...]

And if still on board do not forget to jettison your bomb load. Can easily be forgotten in the heat of the moment. :guilty:

eagleeyes
May-18-2016, 03:24
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9638&highlight=wind

For the most part these days I use +/- 3.5 for 2-3 m/s crosswinds in the Blenny and Br20.

I hope this helps.

Thanks this was a great help.

Eagleeyes

Killerwhale
Oct-11-2016, 17:37
The plane just keeps steering to the left before take off, and then a crash. any solution? this happens when taking off, I have no problem keeping the plane centered to runway

BOO
Oct-11-2016, 17:54
The plane just keeps steering to the left before take off, and then a crash. any solution? this happens when taking off, I have no problem keeping the plane centered to runway

Yeah, it does, so you need to correct the drift with right rudder. Locking the tailwheel helps too. If youve locked the tailwheel however, once it lifts it has no influence. So you may need to apply a little right rudder as you raise the tail to (but not much).

BOO

Killerwhale
Oct-11-2016, 19:04
Yeah, it does, so you need to correct the drift with right rudder. Locking the tailwheel helps too. If youve locked the tailwheel however, once it lifts it has no influence. So you may need to apply a little right rudder as you raise the tail to (but not much).

BOO


15 clicks I put rudder to the right, it stays on runway, just before take off, it turns left and refuses to turn right no matter how much right rudder I apply on my joystick

Sparviero1946
Sep-30-2017, 04:53
Hi, I've got a question about prop pitch. I set the control of it to a secondary axes, and it work great with other aircrafts (109, 110). Conversely, the ju88 seems sitck at 10.15 and when a try to increase/decrease the prop pitch it works only if the axe is at full course: when I release it (indipendently if I reach higher or lower prop value of 10.15), the prop come back autounomusly to 10.15.
Any suggestions?
Thanks

BOO
Sep-30-2017, 06:15
Hi, I've got a question about prop pitch. I set the control of it to a secondary axes, and it work great with other aircrafts (109, 110). Conversely, the ju88 seems sitck at 10.15 and when a try to increase/decrease the prop pitch it works only if the axe is at full course: when I release it (indipendently if I reach higher or lower prop value of 10.15), the prop come back autounomusly to 10.15.
Any suggestions?
Thanks

I couldn't replicate your problem but was only throttling up the engine on the ground and adjusting the prop. The clock may behave differently once the aircraft is in motion.

I have the prop for Axis fighter and bomber set on two buttons though. In the past ive had the 88 prop set to an axis. I cannot recall any problems other than some imprecision (although I never watched the pitch clock because my understanding is that its the RPM dial that's important) -as such as long as my RPMs didn't race I was happy - I did have engine readout on digital though and the prop percentage remained constant to its selected position one the prop had caught up ( idont know what the clock did).

I on balance I prefer the button to the axis on most German stuff.

Assuming that is not a Clod bug (so the RPMs do respond but the clock doesn't) and your revs race or drop as the clock goes back to 10:15, the only other thing that I can think of is that you have something conflicting but I think that this would be almost impossible in the current clod controls sets up.

The only other thing that I can then think of checking are your deadzomes and curves for that controller.

Regards

BOO

Torric270
Sep-30-2017, 10:36
Hi, I've got a question about prop pitch. I set the control of it to a secondary axes, and it work great with other aircrafts (109, 110). Conversely, the ju88 seems sitck at 10.15 and when a try to increase/decrease the prop pitch it works only if the axe is at full course: when I release it (indipendently if I reach higher or lower prop value of 10.15), the prop come back autounomusly to 10.15.
Any suggestions?
Thanks

Sounds like your axis goes back to neutral which the 109/110 needs. The 88 is variable pitch and will set the pitch at where the axis stops and is reverse of 109/110 in CLOD (100 % is zero) just select reverse button in control setup.

runkle
Oct-26-2017, 05:54
Nice

ilario38
Oct-23-2020, 14:25
Welcome to the ATAG server's Ju88 resource page.
beautiful lesson. But I cannot go over 1920 rpm and rthe plane sthals soon afeter
The thread has evolved to incorporate many of the Ju88's abilities and with input from some the communities most esteemed Ju88 pilots our knowledge of the Ju88 is growing every day.

Below is a Ju88 quick tutorial.


LOADOUT: Take about 20% fuel and a full bomb load, 18 50kg bay1, 10 50kg bay2, 4 250kg external pylons.

For bombing operations under 1km take the type j bombs/low level (selected bay must be open and bombs armed before dive run).

BOMBS: You must select bay# or all, mode(series/salvo/single), string amount(1-24 or infinite), and distance between bombs(1/5/10 meters depending on target saturation for series) speed(set to 500/600kph for dive, you will need a last second adjustment for speed) your elevation above sea level minus elevation of target above sea level , climb to desired height(3.5km and above to use superchargers but reduce throttle before engage, you have a WEP as well)

Full accuracy needs the use of the IAS TAS conversion chart but not needed on a dive run.

ENGINE START:


1) fuel cock 1 left tank

2) fuel cock 2 right tank

3) throttle idle

4) prop pitch full

5) water/oil rads closed

6) deselect eng 2

7) eng start (sometimes they misfire, if so eng start again)

8 ) deselect eng 1

9) select eng 2

10) eng start

11) select eng 1

12) warm to 40c water temp

13) elevator trim counter clockwise 1 revolution to 12 o'clock (take off position)

14) FLAPS: There are four indents for the flap lever. Set flaps one step up from bottom lever position (Landekl) you will hear them activate, then move the lever one more step up to 0 position when the indicator under the airbrake for flaps reads .6 with the cursor or the second dot down(take off position 25 degrees deflection) The top and bottom positions stow flaps.

TAKE OFF: from a full length concrete runway like tramecourt in the ATAG server. Open water rads and oil rads 30% on taxi, open 100% on takeoff and climb. Spool engines up to 100% throttle/rpm and full pitch with toe breaks deployed, release breaks and focus on a nice straight run with no back or forward yoke pressure(tail will lift on its own) apply slight back pressure(rotate) to the yoke at 180/185 kph (any slower you will stall, faster and you will overspeed tires), gear up on positive rate, throttle back to the yellow mark on manifold ATA pressure indicator/rpm (30 mins in yellow at climb), level out and gain enough speed till you can stow the flaps(200kph or so).

CLIMB: Adjust throttle (about 2km), prop pitch and trim throughout the climb phase to keep manifold pressure 1.25 and rpm2350 and the speed at 250kph for max climb rate (about 30 mins before damage will occur) (remove front gun for better visibility in cockpit)

DIVE: Reduce throttle to 0% prop pitch to 30-50%(rpm under yellow during dive) and water rad 0% and use elevator trim for a nice dive angle or you can use the dive break but it uses a bomb drop mechanism that deploys automatically(it sets trim auto for dive) and pulls you out of dive as well(it's the same system as Ju87 Stuka), angle is steeper but speed is reduced.


That's what it takes to get the 88 started and up in the air on a full real server.

Any additional input, thoughts, opinions, etc is appreciated!


Enjoy!

Hy. Beautiful lesson! But after following your notes I cannot go over 1920 rpm at full throttle,12.00 hours pitch. And soon after take off(190 kmh) the plane sthal on the left and ...crash. ALWAYS. Whwere is the mistake? thanks for the help.

DerDa
Oct-23-2020, 14:41
Hy. Beautiful lesson! But after following your notes I cannot go over 1920 rpm at full throttle,12.00 hours pitch. And soon after take off(190 kmh) the plane sthal on the left and ...crash. ALWAYS. Whwere is the mistake? thanks for the help.

Did you try the flashcards that are distributed with the game under Extras?
We developed and subsequently tested the procedure multiple times and it worked nicely.

ATAG_Hawk
Oct-23-2020, 16:55
Hy. Beautiful lesson! But after following your notes I cannot go over 1920 rpm at full throttle,12.00 hours pitch. And soon after take off(190 kmh) the plane sthal on the left and ...crash. ALWAYS. Whwere is the mistake? thanks for the help.

Could be you are raising the nose too much immediately on lift-off or your rudder trim is excessive which would cause you to swing on take off. Normally with the A1 the pitch control is automatic on take off. You lower the RPM soon after becoming airborne.:salute:

ilario38
Oct-24-2020, 07:44
Did you try the flashcards that are distributed with the game under Extras?
We developed and subsequently tested the procedure multiple times and it worked nicely.

Thank you. Just a question whici is the maximum rpm for its engines? I cannot go over 1900.
Talking about sthal I am always under 100 meters when it does happend. Only once I managed t fly for few minutes al about 100 meters without being able (full trottle and pitch) to go faster then 200 kmh. Again where is the mistake?