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EG14_Marcast
Jan-02-2014, 04:30
First of all I must say that 1) I enjoy very much the most maps that are actually in rotation and that 2) I don’t know anything about map scripting apart from simple FMB use. So maybe this idea isn’t even possible to actualize, I just offer it as a matter of discussion.

I think that our goal is to make a game as close as possible to a real aerial warfare scenario. All current maps (apart from London Raids on the Red side) are based on the concept of targets’ destruction within a certain time. This leads to some deviations from reality: Personally as a mainly bomber pilot, I often make attacks that I would never dare if I really were sitting on that plane (low level bombing on highly AAA defended targets).
IMO this could be avoided by passing to “points based” maps. Points should be given for targets’ destruction, for kills and for RTBs too. The map could be won by the side reaching a certain amount of points or the highest number of points in a certain time duration. This could also allow both parts to take advantage in some measure of the “pure dogfight fans” work. What do you think?

ATAG_Nudge
Jan-02-2014, 06:44
First of all I must say that 1) I enjoy very much the most maps that are actually in rotation and that 2) I don’t know anything about map scripting apart from simple FMB use. So maybe this idea isn’t even possible to actualize, I just offer it as a matter of discussion.

I think that our goal is to make a game as close as possible to a real aerial warfare scenario. All current maps (apart from London Raids on the Red side) are based on the concept of targets’ destruction within a certain time. This leads to some deviations from reality: Personally as a mainly bomber pilot, I often make attacks that I would never dare if I really were sitting on that plane (low level bombing on highly AAA defended targets).
IMO this could be avoided by passing to “points based” maps. Points should be given for targets’ destruction, for kills and for RTBs too. The map could be won by the side reaching a certain amount of points or the highest number of points in a certain time duration. This could also allow both parts to take advantage in some measure of the “pure dogfight fans” work. What do you think?

This sounds very much like ATAG_Wolf's mission I remember correctly...it was a good mission just too much going on I think.

I agree though missions based on points would be better.

Kling
Jan-02-2014, 07:57
I have been suggesting this for a long time! The fact that there currently is no point for an individual to rtb, neither for himself nor for his team makes it a bit arcadish...
To rtb when damaged is just time consuming and brings nothing.
Rtb has to be encouraged somehow. After all a landing is as essential to a flight as a take off.

With patch 4.01 I think an updated version of "refuel/rearm" will be active again and would love to see this being incorporated in a mission somehow.
If people can be encouraged to RTB and refuel/rearm instead of hitting esc/respawn it would add alot of realism.

A limited planeset might do this, everytime you respawn (assuming your plane has no recorded damage) instead of refuel/rearm, your side would lose a plane as a punishment for taking the easy way out.

A limited amount of pilots might also encourage people to rtb or at least try to get as far as possible. Every time you bail or are too lazy to rtb, your side would lose a pilot (unless on own side of the frontline and rescued by search and rescue boats).

;)

fleX
Jan-02-2014, 14:45
With patch 4.01 I think an updated version of "refuel/rearm" will be active again and would love to see this being incorporated in a mission somehow.
If people can be encouraged to RTB and refuel/rearm instead of hitting esc/respawn it would add alot of realism.

A limited planeset might do this, everytime you respawn (assuming your plane has no recorded damage) instead of refuel/rearm, your side would lose a plane as a punishment for taking the easy way out.

A limited amount of pilots might also encourage people to rtb or at least try to get as far as possible. Every time you bail or are too lazy to rtb, your side would lose a pilot (unless on own side of the frontline and rescued by search and rescue boats).

Again, I'm new here, but I thought it would be an interesting dynamic to encourage RTB if you can't spawn the newer a/c (E4/N, Ia 100oct, IIa) at the forward air bases.
You would have active airfields way back from the front lines that you only could spawn these a/c from.
This, along with getting the <RR back, would mean that you could get back in the action as fast as possible with your favored a/c.
Otherwise, you'd have to take another long slog from the rear aerodromes to get back into action.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying deactivate all spawns from the forward air bases, just only allow the older a/c to be available.
Like the Dunkirk map, I believe. Only DH 5-20 Hurri's and Spit I at Oye Plage. Or, the newer map (terrible with remembering names) where the RAF has bases like Dieppe in the West of France.

For those with historical accuracy in mind, this could be explained in the fact that early targets for the Lutwaffe in the BoB were the RAF 11 Group airfields.
Fighters would be in short supply, with newer ones coming in from rearward factories and air bases further North.
Making the pilot take a Spit IIa, for example, from Southend would make it almost like he was taking it off the factory floor (I'm not suggesting that airfield was a manufacturing plant, just a 'let's pretend' explaination)
and flying it to the front lines. Then, it's the pilot's responsibility to RTB and get his a/c repaired so he has the best available tool to get back into the furball.

SoW Reddog
Jan-02-2014, 15:17
Again, I'm new here, but I thought it would be an interesting dynamic to encourage RTB if you can't spawn the newer a/c (E4/N, Ia 100oct, IIa) at the forward air bases.
You would have active airfields way back from the front lines that you only could spawn these a/c from.
This, along with getting the <RR back, would mean that you could get back in the action as fast as possible with your favored a/c.
Otherwise, you'd have to take another long slog from the rear aerodromes to get back into action.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying deactivate all spawns from the forward air bases, just only allow the older a/c to be available.
Like the Dunkirk map, I believe. Only DH-50 Hurri's and Spit I at Oye Plage. Or, the newer map (terrible with remembering names) where the RAF has bases like Dieppe in the West of France.

For those with historical accuracy in mind, this could be explained in the fact that early targets for the Lutwaffe in the BoB were the RAF 11 Group airfields.
Fighters would be in short supply, with newer ones coming in from rearward factories and air bases further North.
Making the pilot take a Spit IIa, for example, from Southend would make it almost like he was taking it off the factory floor (I'm not suggesting that airfield was a manufacturing plant, just a 'let's pretend' explaination)
and flying it to the front lines. Then, it's the pilot's responsibility to RTB and get his a/c repaired so he has the best available tool to get back into the furball.

If I understand you correctly, what you're asking is not possible AFAIK. You can't dictate which aircraft individual players can spawn in. (well you could bodge it through script but it'd be a nightmare) <RR only works with superficial damage as well again AFAIK. RTB should be encouraged in all situations.

fleX
Jan-02-2014, 17:23
If I understand you correctly, what you're asking is not possible AFAIK. You can't dictate which aircraft individual players can spawn in. (well you could bodge it through script but it'd be a nightmare) <RR only works with superficial damage as well again AFAIK. RTB should be encouraged in all situations.


I know you have a lot more experience in this than myself, but I'm confused as to why aircraft limitations to specific fields aren't possible.

I'm not saying force them into a specific aircraft on spawn, but to limit the options available at each frontline airfield.
Like, certain maps only have Blennies available at Littlestone, or Hawkinge only carries Hurri's.
(As you can tell, I mostly fly red, so I can't say exactly what spawns where for Blue, but I'm guessing there are certain A/C only available from one field and not another).

So, instead of (for eg.) Hawkinge carrying Hurri's, Lympne carrying the Spit models all the way up to IIa, Littlestone the Blennies, you can only choose from the older models
like the Hurri DH 5-20 (not 100oct), Spit I (not 100oct), and so on.

Then, have airfields available for spawn-in further north (Gatwick, Biggin Hill, Kenley, etc.) with Spit Ia 100oct and IIa's as an added choice.
I understand that <RR doesn't fix major damage, but it was just an idea for incentive to RTB instead of spawning another IIa at Hawkinge or Lympne when you're winchester over the channel.

You could, for instance, have the sub-100oct A/C available on the coastal airfields, have some of the Hurri 100oct and Ia (sub 100oct) available at closer airfields like Canterbury, Eastchurch, and Wilmington, then have the Ia 100oct and IIa's available from the rearward fields. Just make the slower A/C the only ones available for selection from the front and each airfield that gets further from the channel gets better A/C choices.

I hope I don't confuse with my posts.
It's only a casual idea and I apologize if I can't convey my point clearly.

I was just a little confused myself when I read that it was not possible to limit aircraft availability when so many of the maps I've flown so far have limitations on those same parameters.

SoW Reddog
Jan-02-2014, 17:45
I did say "If I understand you correctly" :)

It seems I did not. Of course it's possible to put any plane type at any spawn point-this is evident from any ATAG mission. What I thought you were proposing was:
Player wants 2a so takes off from "rear" airfield (southend).
Player flies to front, shoots some nasty Blue's down, gets clobbered, RTB's at "frontline" airbase.
Because HE has RTB'd a "good" plane HE can take off from "frontline" airbase in a new "good" plane but no one else could. (I could script it thus, but it'd be clunky as hell and not really add anything to the game experience).

If you look at London Raids (my mission) for example, you'll see that there's only 2 frontline bases, and they are both restricted to only Hurricanes. This was done deliberately to try and focus the fight further inland and also encourage more Hurricanes. It's worked to a point, but there's still no point in RTB until <RR comes back or the stats are changed, or every player suddenly starts valuing his virtual life.

ATAG_Ribbs
Jan-02-2014, 17:47
I think Reddog just misunderstood you. You weren't asking for players to only spawn in certain aircraft...per say. You were saying that with RR enabled the newer aircraft E/4N and and Spit IIa or 100 oct variants would be placed at the rearward air bases. This would encourage pilots to rtb to keep their trusty steed at the front, instead of having to make the longer flight from the original airbase that they would have to spawn at if they just hit refly.

ATAG_Ribbs
Jan-02-2014, 17:53
I was too slow..lol ..I want to throw this out again.. what about a resupply script.. where an AI or human pilot could resupply a damaged airfield( fix it) with like 3 successful landings at the base? Using a plane designated for that operation out of the plane menu screen? Could it be possible?

SoW Reddog
Jan-02-2014, 17:56
I was too slow..lol ..I want to throw this out again.. what about a resupply script.. where an AI or human pilot could resupply a damaged airfield( fix it) with like 3 successful landings at the base? Using a plane designated for that operation out of the plane menu screen? Could it be possible?

Yes, that could be achieved quite simply I believe. I've not looked at the code for Landing or detecting a landing, but it must be there as Storm of War use it all the time, as must the stats.

Kling
Jan-02-2014, 18:14
but there's still no point in RTB until <RR comes back or the stats are changed, or every player suddenly starts valuing his virtual life.

This!
And this can only be accomplished by designing missions where RTBing is encouraged. Having a limted nr of planes AND pilots per side would achieve this I think.
Give each side 500 planes and 300 pilots.
You will lose planes at a faster rate than pilots (bailout for example) so it makes sense to have less pilots than planes and also reflects history.

How quickly can say 70players on the server lose 500 planes or pilots?! I have no idea but these are just examples... Ideally the map should last for say 2h??!

Every time a pilot despawns a plane instead of <RR his side would lose a plane maybe?!? <RR should be fun and benefit your side!
I think this would encourage team play where you will value your life and take care of your plane as well as your team mate´s..
A registered kill should be a kill where you have made a kill and RTBed.
People should want to RTB when they are damaged, for your teams best and for your own good and also for your personal stats. :)

fleX
Jan-02-2014, 19:36
Sorry, Red, I didn't mean to sound passive-aggressive.

I just get confused easily and I don't have a good enough grip on the FMB to understand what can and can't be done with it.

Just trying to pitch in a noobie's view on seeing less cheap tactics being implemented for the sake of a stats sheet.

This is CloD, not CoD and I'd hate for that mentality to leak into the community and corrupt it.


Also, cheers for making that London Raids map, it's become one of my favorites to fly (and/or crash/get pk'd/shot down) :D



~S!~

LuseKofte
Jan-06-2014, 04:42
I agree that returning to base should be awarded in mission and team points the mission 4 airfields vs 60 ac is a good pointer.
All tho it does not work out like that since some red goes camping over the Bomber airfields and voulch making it impossible to take off. So a punishment should be given for the reds not RTB as well. This will not affect Reds ability to win the map since this mission tends to be won by the reds.
Going alone over enemy territory is a one way ticket and was in real life. It was simply a no no.

What is needed to be done is award rtb like we award a aerial kill. So keeping your life is more valuable than a kill so to speak.