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ATAG_Snapper
Nov-13-2011, 10:28
I pulled this from a post today by Robo over at the 1C forum which I regard as top notch specifically for the current plane modelling in Cliffs of Dover. We all probably have our own thoughts & experiences on this very topic, but it's a good read that I wanted to share with anyone who may have missed it over at 1C:

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Posted by:Robo
*
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 89

Regarding the actual topic, flying the Spitfire Mk.Ia - what has been said is valid for any fighter aicraft - e.g. stay fast, stay high (ideally both), loiter around dogfights and pick the strugglers etc.

The usual mistake you'll see on servers is Spits getting engaged with Bf 109s right after taking off (you got no choice sometimes, I know), but a 109 coming fast on you while you're down and slow is a difficult situation even for experienced pilot. You can turn better, but the 109 won't turn with you - he will zoom in and out, shooting at you in the process and you will be defending yourself hoping for a buddy to come over and help you out. It's so much better to be that buddy

The Spitfire is an excellent plane, it has got wings and it has got guns. You've got your head with brain in it. If you make good use of them three you can be very succesful pilot.

1. Unless you intend to practice defensive maneuvers and breaks, don't fly straight underneath the 109s. There are always some 109s near Hawkinge on ATAG - coming in various alts, make sure you're not below unless you have to. Climb instead and watch out for the enemy.

2. When engaged in a fight, say 109 above dives on you - break hard enough to make his shooting difficult, but keep your speed and gain some height whenever possible. Don't even think about outclimbing him, your plane can't do that. You won't be able to catch him either if he decides to break away. The key is to fly your maneuvers clean and make him bleed his energy trying to attack you, climbing afterwards, ideally rolling into his turn so he can't do a hammerhead on you. You will see if you're gaining, but carefuly with your nose up as if you get too slow trying to get a shot, your Merlin III will cut as your nose drops in a near stall situation and you will lose precious seconds. That's not worth it, if done correctly, you might as well gain some angles depending on the initial energy difference. Obviously, if he comes in with massive E advantage and zooms up 2km above you, you better bugger off. If you feel you can fight him despite his advantage, try doing this, chose trajectory where he won't be able to roll into you and shoot and don't pull more than necessary. It's a thing to master on all the aicraft - keep you energy, fly clean and smooth. Then, eventually he either notices he's sort of co-e with you and disengages, in which case let him and climb away and watch him closely. Or he won't notice the danger until you make some .303 holes in him. Just shot him down. If he hits you though, that's pity because you already made a mistake of being below a 109 and this is just a way to fix that mistake, doesn't work against good 109 pilots. Good news there is not many of them

3. Ideally, you made it to some 11-13k and you see a dogfight, perhaps some RAF chaps chasing a 109. Let them do their job, there is nothing more annoying than some hot shot spoiling your fight when you're behind your target. If you see a pair engaged in a fight in paragraph 2., e.g. a 109 zooming a Spit or a Hurri, it's your turn. Don't go in being another Spit the 109 zooms! Climb and get the bugger when he can't see you. It's all about timing, the Emil yo-yos up and down, slowing down for a hammerhead or immelman - that's when you want to get him. He probably won't see you at all as he's busy not losing the contact underneath him. You can dive on him or even better, make a zoom climb as you got more control that way. Even if he hears you or sees you coming, there is nothing much he can do. Make sure you hit him, the 303 are devastating if used right. Practice your shooting!

3. The 109 pilots sometimes think they can outclimb you. But they can not. If you come from good position, if you can keep your energy and if you fly clean, you'll catch them and let them have it. That is priceless feeling in any aircraft, but slightly more so in a RAF fighter against a 109 because you beat them on their own ground so to speak.

4. If you happen to be in a co-e fight against a 109, what you do all depends on how your oponent handles the plane. You can outturn him (but don't bleed too much speed), he's stronger on the vertical (especially stall fight as your engine will caugh, his won't), fly yo-yos to trade speed for alt and fly better than him. Shoot better than him and you will win. Good 109 pilot won't turn with you and rather decides to extend and come back with advantage. This is rather hypothetical as if you see a Emil turning after you you know he doesn'k know what he's doing and if he keeps doing that you'll be shooting at him after 2 cycles. Still, don't go too horizontal, fly clean lag and pull only as hard as you need to win the fight and keep your speed. Careful with 109s going in fast, they turn better than you for at that speed (theirs is high, yours is low) and certainly can get few 20mm holes in you.

Above applies to Hurricane as well, the difference being mainly maneuvrability, speed and roll rate, but they somehow share the main characteristics regarding basic advantages - disadvantages against a 109.

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-13-2011, 13:13
Good thread, but not sure about the climb performances of each plane relative to each other. I believe it comes down to pilot skill/engine management. I have yet to have a Spit stay in a climb with me, but maybe that's just a product of who I've encountered so far.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-14-2011, 19:49
Good thread. And I can attest with the same e for both planes the 109 can climb away. Up high though, it gets really interesting for both parties.

jaydee
Nov-15-2011, 17:10
Ive been learning to fly the spit (off line) .Very helpful post ! Thanks for posting Snapper ~S~.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-15-2011, 18:18
Ive been learning to fly the spit (off line) .Very helpful post ! Thanks for posting Snapper ~S~.

Glad you found it a good read! Kudos to Robo for posting it over at 1C. BTW, good luck on your electrician exams! :thumbsup:

(The only tip I could ever offer anyone on things electrical is: Never let anyone named "Sparky" upgrade your PC components! :eek:

ATAG_Septic
Nov-15-2011, 18:29
Glad you found it a good read! Kudos to Robo for posting it over at 1C. BTW, good luck on your electrician exams! :thumbsup:

(The only tip I could ever offer anyone on things electrical is: Never let anyone named "Sparky" upgrade your PC components! :eek:

Great post, thanks to the op and for putting here too :)

Re; Electricians, I remember a tip; if you get an electric shock you need to put rubber boots on quick. Hope that's some use!:goofy:

ATAG_Torian
Nov-20-2011, 22:07
As Kenny Rogers put it "you gotta know when to hold up, know when to fold up, know when to walk away and know when to get the heck outta Dodge".
As Robo has indicated picking ur target and timing is everything.
A fighter pilot on a sim wants to fight. You get shot down, too bad u respawn.
A real fighter pilot didn't have that convenience and I'm sure they were very particular about a fight of their own choosing.
For what it's worth, when in a pickle with a 109 I tend to get right on the deck.
That may go against conventional wisdom but here's my reasoning. If he's gonna
boom n zoom u he can't pick a line that involves being able to go below u. That
means he has to pick a more obtuse angle. This gives u 2 things. 1. More time as
he flattens out his attack angle for u build some speed and think about ur evasive
manouvre. 2. He's more likely to lose sight of u camouflaged on the deck than if u
are mid air.
Two other potential benefits are: 1. If he does try and manouvre with u, u
may be able to make him go slow enuff to stall his machine into the deck in a tight turn. An experienced 109 pilot shouldn't fall for it but I have ditched more than a few 109s into the deck or the drink doing this. 2. He will have to be at a relatively low altitude if he really wants u and this gives any assisstance from a friendly the opportunity to get above him and nail him for u.
Which brings me to my last thought, never fly alone and get on coms :no

ATAG_Torian

Catseye
Nov-21-2011, 13:19
Booming and zooming in a BF109 is THE way to go. If you have a wingman, you can double team the bandit successively and make him loose E on each pass. Team kill!!

First 109 makes a pass from above while second 109 keeps eyes on and also checks for any other incoming bandits. First 109 takes passing shot and zooms VERTICAL (best way to gain most height after a dive), then calls in second 109. Pilots continue to communicate through the entire procedure. Six clear, Press, bandit turns, hits/no hits, coming down now.

The second 109 will have some adjustment to make as the bandit will have jinked and thereby losing some more E. Second pass completes as the first one did with continual communications. The third pass is on its way down while the second pass reaches the apex of its climb. More E lost by the bandit and by now should be a sitting duck.

Be careful that both 109's don't drop to co-alt and end up in a tail chase. It leaves them open to being target fixated and being bounced themselves.

Remember - bug out after the kill and gain altitude at a pre-arranged rally point for either re-entry into the combat zone (pending, damage, ammo, fuel, plans) or proceed to home base. If only two aircraft, best formation is a medium distance line abreast so each can watch the others tail and it also enables one or the other to drag any bandits pursuing towards his wingman who has climbed higher at the indication of bandit or if still co-alt proceeding to hook in behind the target fixated bandit. (The Thatch weave).

Cheers,
Cats . . . .

I just flew about an hour or so after sending the above message.
I found myself in a Hurricane over Folkstone low about 1,000 ft. with flak all around and still trying to climb after taking off from Hawkinge. There were two yellow nose 109's circling about 3,000 ft and BnZ'ing me so that I had to jink and couldn't get altitude. Best I could do was maintain sufficient airspeed to jink and watch the flak patterns and try to see where the next one was going to bounce me. This went on for about 20 minutes. First one then the other 109.

Now here's the interesting part. They were both bouncing me but not as a tight pair as I was writing about above. If well coordinated, I wouldn't have made it much beyond the third jink - so I was able to survive building up enough airspeed between attacks but not enough to gain much altitude. Then it happened - a 109 saw another Hurricane/Spit and dove down from only about 1500 ft. giving chase to the six of the friendly and not zooming back up. He didn't start his zoom high enough therefore didn't have enough E and not using the 109's best characteristics continued to give chase. Two mistakes and one I was hoping would happen. I had sufficient E to close on the distant six of the 109 when he broke off and climbed turning right. (Third mistake as he lost all E and any maneouvering advantage the speed of the 109 would have.) I maintained a lag pursuit not pulling hard until I was within guns range and then pulled lead and approximating the lead got good flashes on the lower right wing. The 109 went nose down and the blossoming parachute was very pretty.

Just after that, my launcher froze and I had to quite out of the sim. Regrettably, my point will not show up on the ATAG stats page but all in all for me, a very satisfying time managing my resources until the right tine and knowing that the general rule of thumb that I was speaking about above held true in this case.

S! All,
Watch your six.
Cats . . .

Robo.
Nov-23-2011, 11:33
Hi guys, cheers Snapper, I am glad you find my obscure post at 1c interesting and I am truly honoured to find it over here.

I really enjoy flying on ATAG on both sides (pretty much daily, great fun!) The way I see it all three fighters are quite demanding to fly if you want to be good in them. Obviously both sides benefit from cooperation and / or general tactical advantages. These things are well covered (maneuvers, fighter combat theory) and pretty much universal and valid for 109 as well as for the Hurricane. The good thing is it works pretty well in the sim (already in 1.05 despite some serious FM issues) - energy, physics, ballistics. Pleasure to fly already, kinda frustrating sometimes but rewarding enough imho.

What I wrote was just very basic outline of elementar tactics of RAF fighters vs. Bf 109, not really taking the wider background into account - cooperation, I only commented on basic chatacteristics and advantages of the Spitfire.

I completely agree with whatever has been added in this thread, one important thing is the pilot's approach and what works for me might be 'naaaaaah' for someone else.

What Rudelmann wrote - there is a Spit that can stay in a climb with you and it's the one that comes in faster than you. ;) It's great tactics agains a 109s as they don't expect you to outclimb them. In a RAF you're sort of ready to break hard at any time because you expect to have some yellow nosed planes diving on you and zooming back up. You feel safe in a 109 and that's a easy thing to exploit, I've seen many pilots being surprised and reacting too late on my Spitfire or Hurri on their 6 in a climb, I know what they were thinking, been there myself in a 109 :D As a Emil pilot I fly very confident but I don't like seing a RAF bloke above me and faster.

It's not easy to understand these things at the beginning and it takes time and lots of experience (read: mistakes) to get it right. I recommend any new pilot to read and grasp the basics of the angles, curves (lead, lag...), energy fighting as such. It takes a lot of actual flying skill, especially working with your rudder in order to get the maneuvers clean and efficient and shooting is important, too. Especially in the RAF where you happen to be chasing a better performing enemy aircraft.

1 don't pull harder than you have to (AoA = energy)
2 chose optimal trajectory (= energy)
3 climb whenever you can
4 maintain your airspeed (always)
5 be agressive but patient
6 know what's going on around you (SA)
7 shoot well
8 know when you can't catch up

Above is my tactics on ATAG, pretty much sums up what Catseye or Torian said, that's no secret. Everybody knows what we're supposed to do, but not everybody is really doing it :D

1 - pulling too hard is wasting your speed and energy. Your Angle of Attack is high and you're slowing down faster than necessary. Of course, there are situations when you need to pull as hard as you can - say a 109 is sitting behind you. But then, you already made some mistakes. In a normal fight you wan't to keep your energy (speed / alt) by flying smoothly, use rudder to get optimal trim (ball / arrow in the middle), don't maneuver more than you have to, definitely no violent moves.

2. - optimal trajectory in a typical 109 BnZ situation (he's above you) means climbing smoothly into space behind him, not losing too much speed. Don't try to nose up and stall, keep your speed and focus on the timing of your maneuvers. Say you have a 109 atatcking you with speed / alt advantage. You're not slow either so you're ready for the fight. Judge his energy advantage, say it's not too big and he zooms up ahead of you, climbing steeply to the left. Climb shallow enough to keep your speed and aim your nose to the space behind him, e.g. carry on straight, he is climbing in much steeper angle on your 10-11 o'clock. You're turning smooth wide left turn. Whatever he decides to do you're safe out of his gun envelope and you better stay there. Simple as that. How do you do it: pull smooth left turn, full power, climbimg just enough to keep your speed for a maneuver. If he's good, he will try to hammerhead down on you as fast as possible when he climbs as high as possible (he's keeping his energy, too) rolling into your turn to get lead and enough deflection. Timing is important and that comes with experience, but what you do is you maneuver into his turn so he won't be able to shoot at all and you also aim to rob him of as much energy as possible in this unsucessfull attack. The maneuver you do is either turn or better turn roll into his trajectory (not into his axis). You have to be ready, you have to see when he's about to attack, you have to have enough speed. This depends on the situation, you only pull as hard as necessary as soon he's out of angle CLIMB again. Smooth turn into opposite side or left again, depending on what he's doing.

Ideal defensive maneuver is break and climb oposite turn. Spitfire can do this very fast gaining some speed in the low yo yo break.

What happens next: depending on how good the Emil pilot is e.g how much energy he managed to keep after the attack, you keep flying smooth lag turns until you slow him down enough. You can recognise not so good 109 pilots by being too fast in the attacks or too slow, giving you way too much time. Too fast means he will start another attack before he climbs up trading all his speed into alt advantage. This kind of fight ends up co-e rather soon, envolving into Bf running home or turnfight, in which case he's as good as dead.

If he's good, you have to work hard to rob him of his advantage. Keep flying smooth, climb lag turns behind him (difficult to explain in words), he will keep his advantage BUT you will be able to roll into his turn as he heads hown and shoot. You don't have to overtake him, you don't have to outclimb him, you just need to get close enough for a moment. The time when he goes down is perfect - all you do is prepare your roll before he does his and being one step ahead, you catch him by surprise. At this stage, I can tell you, the 109 dude is pretty nervous asking how come??? :laugh:

If he's very good (pilot or shoot), you will lose sooner or later. Mind you already made a mistake getting invovled in a fight against a better perfroming fighter aircraft with tactical advantage. You can see the 109 is piloted by an expert if he times his atatck right, you can see him going up in perfect 'candle', doing hammerhead without wobbling and dropping his wings, doing that bit in the sun etc etc.

3 climb whenever you can. On ATAG, most Bf pilots don't bother to come high, they crawl the Channel as they know you can't catch them anyway. They're confident enough coming at full speed at 1000m or even less as they can trade this for alt at any time and even keep the upper hand. Fair enough. You want to wait for them as they climb after an attack. If he's involved in a fight with someone else, he can see you coming but he can't judge your energy correctly, he'll keep climbing and you keep closing in. If he realises what the problem is, he'll break down (neg G), keep your speed and do his job now - Boom'n'Zoom mama. He'll be struggling. In order to do that you need some alt, so climb, climb climb. 24000 is too high, depending how the blues fly, pick your optimal height.

4 - Speed is life - you don't want to get too slow in your RAF fighter plane as it becomes useless. You can't climb into controlled stall as a 109 as you'll starve your engine. Stay fast enough all the time. Make good use of lag curve to manage your energy better than your opponent. Never get involved in a scissors or any vertical maneuvers with a 109. If he tries scissors, high yo-yo instead. You're slow you're dead. If he tries vertical scissors e.g climbing up steeply and rolling into you - don't compete with him on that, he can do it better. Climb staying out of his gun range and keep your advantage.

5 - Aggressive but patient - sounds as an oxymoron, but it's not. Aggresivity is important, but it has to be smart kind of violence. You need to know what is gonna happen after next maneuver. Say the situation of BnZing 109 above you. You keep doing your thing, lag climb and evasive turn and roll out ov his trajectory, keeping as mych speed as possible to catch up. You'll see when you can shoot at the next yo yo and take your time. If you try to do that too early, you'll lose too much angles and all your effort from last 2 minutes will be gone. When you realise he's turning down and you can still climb, don't attack, climb and do another perfect lag turn, but now HE'S below, dive after him. He's gonna run or climb. You can decide if you want to get the runner, if he climbs get close and let him have it :D

6 - Situation awareness - if you fly behind a 109 that's maneuvring in a suspicious way means he's trying to get his mate on your six. This is very difficult in the beginning as you tend to focus on your oponent. That's a mistake, you're in a multi target enviroment on ATAG and you're never sure who's on his way to your area. Watch out for flak, look around a lot even in a fight. It is possible.

7. Shoot well. All the flying is useless if you can't hit. You have to get close enough in order to hit him. You don't get many chances so make sure you have. If you miss, he won't.

Robo.
Nov-23-2011, 11:34
8. Sooner or later, you dind youself sitting behind a 109 that's getting smaller and smaller. You're never gonna catch him, you better climb along him and see if he turns back. You can catch some Emils and they don't expect that. All you need is bit of alt advantage and good timing. Say, you got close a 109, making some damage but not enough. German pilot sees he's in truble, hits WEP and flies straight. Many pilots will slow you down before that bit by rolling into neg G maneuver. Don't follow it, he's right there under your nose, don't worry. Then he's gonna trade all his alt to speed by diving rather steeply down to the ground. Get his heading and let him go. You can try following him in perfect lead to the point where he's gonna be. Point your nose on a place on the horizont where he's heading and dive, full power but much shallower than him. He's faster but your trajectory is shorter. More often than not you'll catch him. He'll slow down eventually, he'll look behind him to see if you're there, that will get you closer. As I said before, you don't have to overtake him, you just need to get close enough. 109 is fast, but your bullets are faster :D Seing the fleeing 109 rising in your gunsight = priceless.

Sorry about the long post, I find these things interesting and yes, you're bonkers if you really read it. :Grin:

The text that you have entered is too long (10429 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long. :goofy:

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-23-2011, 12:22
This is absolutely THE best post on Spit vs 109 ACM's I've ever read. Doubly so because it's specific to the CoD FM's as opposed to the Real Life book values (which don't necessarily reflect what we actually experience with ver 1.05 on the ATAG server.)

Even as a longtime combat flight sim enthusiast both off-and online, I still find myself making the common tactical errors in my Spits which you so clearly address above. You've been most generous in sharing your thoughts and experience with us here and over at 1C. Please know your posts are most welcome here, as is subsequent discussion and analysis from everyone reading this. Rest assured, agree or disagree, your posts will be greeted with the utmost respect they deserve on this forum.

For my part, I can write almost as learnedly on what NOT to do in a Spit! :thumbsup:

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-23-2011, 14:52
The text that you have entered is too long (10429 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long. :goofy:

Great info Robo!

I'll have to fix the character thingy - never realized there was a maximum amount for posting :thumbsup:

jaydee
Nov-24-2011, 02:38
Thank you Robo for sharing your knowledge and taking the time to type it out for us Noobs ! Very much appreciated ! ~S~

ATAG_JTDawg
Nov-24-2011, 14:17
I agree but germany has a new weapon ! a sub. 109 btw he got me!!!! maybe someone can explain tacktics on this 292

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-24-2011, 18:14
I agree but germany has a new weapon ! a sub. 109 btw he got me!!!! maybe someone can explain tacktics on this 292

Yikes! That's the first I've seen of a "109 - submarine"!!!!

Tip: open your Hurri's canopy and track him with your "sonar"!:Grin:

Robo.
Nov-24-2011, 21:42
Well :Grin: I will get some depth charges installed, good to know :dthumb:

I had this last night - 109s and Spits warping all over the place, often miles away from where I last seen them. Some players were particulary bad and it was impossible to shot them down. Must be down to the server or my own connection, very frustrating to see your enemy warp to the oposite way when you try to follow his trajectrory. Once, I had him coming from 12 o clock straight behind me and had to outmaneuver him... again. That's part of online gaming since the day one, we have to deal with it. I deal with it by swearing and throwing objects on the floor.

As for the posts, I am really glad you find them helpful and I hope that they might actually help someone - but please make sure you take them with pinch of salt. That is just one small part of everything, I am certainly not trying to be some kind of authority and I can't guarantee that everything is gonna work for you. This sim is new and different to Il-2 and I am also still learning. I very much enjoy it as after 10 years of Il-2 I felt like I was on the same level for a long time. As I said, that stuff about curves and energy is valid no matter what sim you fly and no matter what plane you sit in. I went to comment on Spitfire and Hurricane Mk.I as I happen to fly it a lot (there is usually lack of reds and I am not bothered). I really started to enjoy flying RAF as it seems to be more challenging and demanding.

Just to add - if you fancy RAF you should know that the 109 is fairly better fighter than the one they've given you. It is faster, it climbs better (massive advantage already), is well armed and more maneuvrable in many situations. What this means in typical situation is, that a 109 is able to have (and usualy has got) the initiative in the combat. It's pilot can decide how and when to attack, he can disengage at any time. He is making decisions, you are mostly in defensive reacting on his decisions. This is the way it is very often simply due to the charatcer of the aircraft involved. Nothing to do with you as a pilot, your aircraft is still perfectly able to get these 109s in trouble and bring them down if used right. This is just to explain how I spent so much text describing the tactics in a situation where a 109 zooms a Spitfire / Hurricane.

Obviously, you want to be above the enemy most of the time, but this is not always possible - eg your mate is in deep sh...trouble. It is very much possible to use your RAF fighter for BnZ tactics and it is my personal favourite way of bringing down enemy planes. In fact, more than 2/3s of my so called kills are achieved that way. It's not easy to bounce a 109 as there are some problems (high speed handling of the Hurri for example) but it's perfectly doable and extremely effective.

It is very difficult to master the defensive maneuvers and I find it uneasy to describe what's going on in English. If you happen to be underneath an attacking 109 (and this is what is happening very often on ATAG), it's a handy skill to know how to dodge effectively and it is perfectly possible to make the BnZ business very frustrating for the German. What I said about initiative and decisions, it's actually easier to react on somebody's decisions than making them yourself sometimes. Although the 109 is performing better, it is rather difficult to master it, for various reasons. It is easy to make a mistake (eg lose to much speed) in a 109 especially when BnZooming. You have to be patient enough and very experienced to use the potential of the Emil. Experienced RAF pilot is able to hold his ground against an attacking 109 and he can even close the initial gap in the energy statuses if he's not too low and slow. It's all about doing the right maneuvers in the right moment and that takes some practice. The good news is you have your good 'ol Refly button and you can keep practicing to figure it out. Tally ho!

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-25-2011, 01:34
Heh, with enough of a speed advantage, anything can outclimb another, going to test that with a dive-bombing Ju-88 one day. What I meant was co-E, I've never had a Spit/Hurri outclimb me, but I'll revise my statement to include starting down low. After 5k, I refuse to climb and play the RAF's game.

For you 109 pilots, when you get bounced by high-E RAF'ers coming down on you, get speed, drop that nose slightly and extend. Get your energy states as even as possible, when you reach 650kmh, he's not going to have much E over you anymore, and now you can begin to chandelle and bleed his E to reverse on him. If you see him turn away before you've begun your chandelle, GET ON HIM, he's wasted his advantage and you are now Co-E.

Robo.
Nov-25-2011, 06:46
Heh, with enough of a speed advantage, anything can outclimb another, going to test that with a dive-bombing Ju-88 one day. What I meant was co-E, I've never had a Spit/Hurri outclimb me, but I'll revise my statement to include starting down low. After 5k, I refuse to climb and play the RAF's game.

Exactly, but this is something I wanted to point out as I see many RAF chaps trying to compete with 109s in climb rate.


For you 109 pilots, when you get bounced by high-E RAF'ers coming down on you, get speed, drop that nose slightly and extend. Get your energy states as even as possible, when you reach 650kmh, he's not going to have much E over you anymore, and now you can begin to chandelle and bleed his E to reverse on him. If you see him turn away before you've begun your chandelle, GET ON HIM, he's wasted his advantage and you are now Co-E.

For you RAF pilots - when you bounce a 109 make sure he doesn't see you coming. If he does, you will certainly notice he's doing his evasive maneuvres. Even in a perfect bounce, you will be closing in rather slowly on a 109 flying on full power. He's fast. You will reach your max speed and with any alt you drop after that point, you're wasting your initial energy advantage. Also, as I stated before, your maneuvrability is very limited and high speeds (especially so in a Hurricane). Again, he is making decisions, your're reacting at what he's doing.

1. If he's not too fast, you can fall down behind him and get him in a climb from his 6 o'clock low. Problem is, when you do it wrong you won't catch him.

2. If he's fast, cut his turn / trajectory and head to where he's gonna be. Your tyrajectory is shorter and you won't bleed as much energy as if you fall straight on him, pointing your nose on him.

If he sees you and tries to extend raping his WEP button (nose down, bye byeee Hurricane), keep your speed and keep your alt - keep coming down on him in shallow dive but don't even think about following his maneuvers. He will outmaneuver you at that speeds, going vertical on the end and you're done. Keep your advantage. Depending on how deep he dove trying to lose you, you're now above a very fast 109 - what he's gonna do is he's gonna trade that speed for alt. Some pilots like to go aggressive and attack you in the power climb, some will try to outclimb you first and then attack you in a BnZ. If you did it right, he won't be able to atatck you either way, you will be able to nose up to dodge out of his gun range (this requires some experience regarding timing andn decision where to turn) and he'll stay underneath you. Unless he extended a lot and he is way ahead of you. In that case, consider him as runner and decide what to do based on the text in the previous post.

The point is - as Rudelmann says, 109 climbs better and it's pilot know that. You in a RAF crate know that and you expect to be outclimbed. The 109 pilot on the other hand never expects that and they are confident, therefore some of them misjudge your energy status completely. Easily done. If you keep your speed you find yourself behind a 109 climbing and climbing and wondering how come you keep up with him. Seing a 109 stall below you = also priceless. But tackling a 109 on vertical is a very dangerous game.

Comparing the Spitfire Mk.I to Hurricane Mk.I - Hurricane is faster and climbs better than a Spit - that's why I prefer it against a 109. It is much clumsier on controls though, but more stable gun platform in a slow speed lag displacement rolls.

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-27-2011, 00:37
I'll agree with Robo here, everything depends on relative E, and ability to identify E-state. Anyone climbing with someone who's got higher E, and anywhere near close enough to make a shot, deserves to be shot down! ;)

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-27-2011, 18:24
Great discussion, folks. I'm learning tons from each perspective, and I'm an experienced WW2 sim pilot. Thanks to all who are contributing.

P.Konrad
Oct-03-2018, 07:42
Fighter Combat-Tactics and Manoeuvring by Robert L. Shaw. He has a master's degree in aeronautical engineering and is a veteran of 14 years in USN fighter aviation. It is the most comprehensive read on fighter tactics I have every seen.

The first rule in fighter combat is height is life. Who ever is higher has the advantage. Height can be converted into speed and speed can be converted into height.

Beware of the hun in the sun, use the Sun to hide you. It blinds us but I am not sure if it does it to the AI.

Loose sight loose the fight. Know how to fly without taking your eyes off him. Known as padlocking. Search the sky in sections quickly looking for any movement. (situational awareness). Who ever spots their opponents first has a distinct advantage.

@11:51 scanning sections of the sky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CovyvNAZ9VY War Heroes Of The Skies 2of6 Spitfire Victory George Frederick "Buzz" Beurling

The Bf 109 is and Energy fighter. It Climbs and dives faster than the Spitfire Mk I & II. The Spitfire is a turning fighter, meaning it can turn better than the Bf 109 but not roll faster. A scissors will not prevail generally.

Good 109 pilots will not get into a turning fight with you generally but if you can lure a 109 to stay at the same level, the spitfire has a tighter turning radius and you can eventually get behind him.

The Spitfire can boom and zoom on a 109 as long as it is sufficient height. I have done this and seen others do it also (example), flying top cover for the squadron, a dogfight below, a 109 on a spits tail below me, I dive on him, fire and into the channel he goes.

Another situation to examine, a 109 is pulling lead on you as you are pulling back, he is hitting or going to hit you even while your in a tight turn which can happen because he has a lead angle on you, push forward, hard left or right rudder, (slip and skid), cut throttle, anything to throw his aim off (firing angle) (even stall but not at low altitude), for that split second as he speeds past you. I have had to do all three at once many times (chop throttle, push forward and rudder). Some times one. throttle, push forward.

When you are alone and engaged by many above you, one must out turn them all, watch them all. Take what ever the opportunity you get to get a quick burst in at all deflection angles (snap shots) one second burst, but you must not stay on one target for long. This is known as switching. This is the hardest situation. Very difficult to master. Superb marksmanship, lightning reflexes and perfect situational awareness is required.

Deflection shooting @ 14:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CovyvNAZ9VY War Heroes Of The Skies 2of6 Spitfire Victory George Frederick "Buzz" Beurling
Requiems You tube tutorial. Deflection Shooting #1 - Introduction with the RAF Sight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZpS0SLZJVU.

A quote from Eric Hartman, leading Luftwaffe Ace, 352 kills from the documentary Out of the sun - the Great Aces of the 20th Century: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnT_ON7_RC0

@ 15:17

" Try to get in the sun, start from the sun you attack, I tried to go downstairs, where I have enemy here in the sky, Try to get exactly under the aeroplane, then come up with full power and he can not see you. The next step is to go away after you get kill and watch again the whole area to see what is going on and decide for another one or go home, make a cover break. I told my pilots only if the windshield is filled up with the enemy then pull the trigger. That save you a lot of ammunition"

From other sources that I can not remember, Hartman would only initiate an attack from a minimum height advantage of 2000ft (609 mtrs).

Hartman would dive at full throttle and come up below the enemies blind spot and take his shot at close range. After the pass using the energy he has acquired in the dive to climb back up. Then searching the sky for more opponents (situational awareness) and weighing his option to repeat this sequence or leave the area.
This is the tactic you need to try to negate by being above the 109.

Another tactic employed by 109's is called drag and bag. What this entails is a 109 will try to fool you into following him by presenting a slight opportunity to you to have a shot in a long banking turn, but most usually just out of your gunnery range. He want's you to develop what is called target fixation and concentrate on him but don't be fooled because there will be a 109 diving on you as you try to follow.

2 v 1 - "Drag and Bag" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYS3TJ5BWs8

=IRFC= Requiem's Youtube tutorials https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW_ZxFL1P9XDx-qjX2U5jog

WarBirds of World War II : Fighter Tactics 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu5vX86TdIU

Fighter Combat-Tactics and Manoeuvring by Robert L. Shaw https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/entry.php?b=288

CHUCK'S NO. 71 SQUADRON PILOT HANDBOOK https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16436
Thank you Chuck_Owl for posting and creating this fine work. A unofficial IL2 Cliffs of Dover Blitz Manual.

CHUCK'S Guides https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16592

IN PURSUIT A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat. https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16436&p=178338&viewfull=1#post178338
Thank you TWC_SLAG for posting.

Bag the Hun PDF Deflection shooting guide https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/entry.php?b=293

Sun Tzu the author of the Art of War
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/entry.php?b=294

Thank you to all above. I apologise for any repetition.

ATAG_Snapper
Oct-03-2018, 09:25
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, PK. :thumbsup:

Lots of good info from Robo’s original post over at the 1C Forum, and some great responses/feedback. Dates back to....2011! :stunned:

:)