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View Full Version : Bomb mass - something for TF to look at?



SoW Reddog
Jan-06-2014, 17:09
I've just been doing a bit of testing, and it seems the mass of a German 50kg bomb when it explodes is 48, and a German 250kg bomb is 248. I've not checked the other bombs as yet, but am wondering if there's a constant 2kg's missing from each bomb, and why?

Anyone else seen/found this?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jan-06-2014, 18:34
Thanks for your note. :thumbsup:

There are a whole series of issues regarding the bombs, and whether or not the larger versions are actually as powerful as they should be.

This is going to have to wait till TF 5.0 for us to address it. Certainly it is a concern. :salute:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-07-2014, 02:02
I've just been doing a bit of testing, and it seems the mass of a German 50kg bomb when it explodes is 48, and a German 250kg bomb is 248. I've not checked the other bombs as yet, but am wondering if there's a constant 2kg's missing from each bomb, and why?


It's possible the developer originally tried to estimate the kg of explosives in each bomb. The crude method they adopted might have been to just deduct a couple of kg off the bombs total weight... ?

Gromit
Jan-07-2014, 09:39
Thanks for your note. :thumbsup:

There are a whole series of issues regarding the bombs, and whether or not the larger versions are actually as powerful as they should be.

This is going to have to wait till TF 5.0 for us to address it. Certainly it is a concern. :salute:

At present the 50kg bomb carried by the 109 can sink a freighter, which is ridiculous, whether the ship is grossly undermodelled or the bomb overmodelled I have no idea, the end result however is farcical!

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-07-2014, 10:07
At present the 50kg bomb carried by the 109 can sink a freighter, which is ridiculous, whether the ship is grossly undermodelled or the bomb overmodelled I have no idea, the end result however is farcical!

This is indeed ridiculous.

The early G7 torpedo had an all-up weight of; 1538 kg (30 x the mass of the 50kg) with 280 kg of warhead inside!

That's the sort of ordnance required to sink a ship.

235 Sqn. Coldstreamer (QJ-X)
Jan-07-2014, 14:26
As a Ammunition technician for the British ministry of defence I can confidently say whoever modelled the bomb effect is rather out with bomb mass effects or more precise explosive content.

German WW2 Aerial Bomb Types and Description


Designation Weight (kg) Diameter (mm) Length (mm) Bomb body length (mm) Explosive content(kg)

SC 50 . 50 (+ / - 4kg). 200. 1100. 766. 25 -27.5 kg.
SC 250 250 (+ / - 12) 368 1640 1173 125-131.4kg
SC 500 500 (+ / - 20) 470 2010 1432 260-269.6 kg
SC 1000 1027 (+ / - 34) 654 2580 1678 530- 590kg
"Hermann"
SC 1800 1832 (+ / - 65) 660 3500 2674 1000-1100kg
"Satan"


The +/- in weight is due to the different types of manufacture either being cast or forged steel. Cast steel having thicker walls due to casting being weaker in strength than forging.

As you can see the explosive content of all the bombs is between 50-60% of the actual bomb weight again this can be put down to different manufacturing techniques.

Mattias
Jan-07-2014, 14:44
As a Ammunition technician for the British ministry of defence I can confidently say whoever modelled the bomb effect is rather out with bomb mass effects or more precise explosive content.

German WW2 Aerial Bomb Types and Description


The +/- in weight is due to the different types of manufacture either being cast or forged steel. Cast steel having thicker walls due to casting being weaker in strength than forging.
As you can see the explosive content of all the bombs is between 50-60% of the actual bomb weight again this can be put down to different manufacturing techniques.

:salute: Coldstreamer,

Thank you very much for those figures :thumbsup:

As Buzz said we are planning to make corrections to the bombs as we did to the MG and cannon rounds. It will take a while though as we will probably have to tweak the stamina of most ground objects and ships as well.
But it will be done one day :thumbsup:

Cheers/m

235 Sqn. Coldstreamer (QJ-X)
Jan-07-2014, 14:49
if you need technical help with bomb details give me a call anytime when you get round to new models.

SoW Reddog
Jan-07-2014, 16:16
OK, well for now I'm going to continue using the game mass, which means that people will just need to drop more bombs than they thought..

Mattias
Jan-07-2014, 16:30
OK, well for now I'm going to continue using the game mass, which means that people will just need to drop more bombs than they thought..

Or less :D

Sods
Jan-07-2014, 20:42
OK, well for now I'm going to continue using the game mass, which means that people will just need to drop more bombs than they thought..

Hi Red,
Mate if you have a target weight set in script for example ....

int bombMasstokillTarget = 5000;
Bombs required to knock out Targets would amount to ....
Using 50kg to get 5000Kgs worth of damage you would need 100 bombs
and 20 using 250Kg bombs

then if you know that a 50Kg Bomb= 48kg then 100 bombs will actually be 4800Kgs and 250kg Boms = 4960Kgs

change your value accordingly...


int bombMasstokillTarget = 4800; ]
This would mean the same amount of bombs would be needed to destroy targets...
100 x 50kg or 20 x 250Kg bombs

Simpools :)

SoW Reddog
Jan-08-2014, 04:47
Indeed. Or, leave it where it is and people have to drop a couple more bombs to compensate for "duds".:thumbsup:

Nephilim
Jan-12-2014, 08:27
I have simple solution for it....

as soon as i declare mass any where like:


if (initiator.Actor.Army() == 2)
{
double BombMassAsKg = (mass + 2);
}
this way You simply go back to whatever You need.

LuseKofte
Jan-15-2014, 12:28
You cannot side a torpedo with bombs. A torpedo is made to penetrate a warship panzer and ship sides, a bomb is made for go thru ship deck.
in truth getting people to fly bombers is bloody hard and making the bombs less effective is in this concept wrong.
There where many missions flown where 50 kg bombs was dropped on ships, a old steamer with no armor protection take heavy damage by them.
Skid bombing a 250 with the effective rate we have is actually less realistic then the use of a 50 kg dropped on deck.

I advise not to easily do the bombs less effective but more where to hit them. Making the bombers job more difficult and frustrating . You might as well consider a dogfighter server

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-16-2014, 08:39
in truth getting people to fly bombers is bloody hard and making the bombs less effective is in this concept wrong.


No, the goal is to try and make the weapons more sensible (i.e. conforming to the normal laws of physics) and historical (more accurate to type).
Correcting the obvious errors in the bombs might actually result in more bombing, not less. (Either way, the mission design has more influence here anyways).

Certainly, the larger bombs need to be more effective than the smaller bombs no?


Making the bombers job more difficult and frustrating . You might as well consider a dogfighter server

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

SoW Reddog
Jan-16-2014, 08:49
I have simple solution for it....

as soon as i declare mass any where like:


if (initiator.Actor.Army() == 2)
{
double BombMassAsKg = (mass + 2);
}
this way You simply go back to whatever You need.

If it's a consistent 2kg out then this is exactly what I'd do. I need to check each and every bomb type to make sure that it is only 2kg out though.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jan-16-2014, 16:21
You cannot side a torpedo with bombs. A torpedo is made to penetrate a warship panzer and ship sides, a bomb is made for go thru ship deck.
in truth getting people to fly bombers is bloody hard and making the bombs less effective is in this concept wrong.
There where many missions flown where 50 kg bombs was dropped on ships, a old steamer with no armor protection take heavy damage by them.
Skid bombing a 250 with the effective rate we have is actually less realistic then the use of a 50 kg dropped on deck.

I advise not to easily do the bombs less effective but more where to hit them. Making the bombers job more difficult and frustrating . You might as well consider a dogfighter server

Bombs will be looked at to determine if the explosive force they generate is accurate.

At this point we have reason to believe the larger bombs have been 'nerfed' due to the original developer's desire to avoid huge framerate loss when they explode.

However, with our advances in FPS optimization, there is no reason to believe we cannot bring the larger bombs up to an accurate level of destructive force.

Conversely, it seems the smaller bombs may be over-rated, and if that is the case, we will set their values correctly.

Don't think this will penalize the bombers, it will actually give the bombers more options and the chance of inflicting damage with near misses from heavier weapons.

By the way, you bomber buffs will be happy with TF 4.01's changes, they increase the effectiveness of AI gunners, and allow players who jump into a gunner's position a better opportunity to hit attacking fighters.

Everything we do in TF's mods are designed to increase realism and accuracy, and we find that in most instances players will appreciate the advances. :salute:

Nephilim
Jan-19-2014, 21:50
If it's a consistent 2kg out then this is exactly what I'd do. I need to check each and every bomb type to make sure that it is only 2kg out though.

Well I just simplified it a bit, if You want to write whole correction regarding bomb types I will not stop You ...:)


Vogler

DUI
Jan-20-2014, 18:13
During TF 3.0 I made some bomb tests on soft targets (http://jagdgeschwader4.de/index.php/forum/allgemeine-themen/133-bomben-in-il-2-cod#993).

Test situation: Dropping a single bomb (SC-/SD-250 and SC-/SD-500) from a diving Stuka on nicely arranged Kübelwagen.
For several reasons it were no laboratory conditions but decide for yourself if they are of interest for you.

I liked to see the different effects between the SC and SD types, making the SD bombs more effective against such light targets. In addition, the non-homogeneous destruction patterns add some variety. Yet there were also some effects that might seem a bit weird - like an undamaged vehicle right in a bomb crate. :)