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SoW Reddog
Jan-08-2014, 05:41
As has been discussed elsewhere, I'm working on a new mission. I'm at a stage where I'm in a bit of a quandary about which direction I want to go versus the direction I think appeals to players so I'm asking for everyone to vote above, and post any comments if they want. A brief overview of the mission idea is below and how it's written currently.

Mission features
Limited Aircraft numbers: Spawning an aircraft reduces that aircraft's pool. In order to return it to the pool it must be landed on a friendly airfield. Crashing, ditching, crashlanding all LOSE that aircraft. When the available number hits zero, that aircraft cannot be used by players until replenished.
Aircraft Replenishment: Aircraft limits are increased based on historical availability and manufacturing ability - knocking out the Spitfire works reduces Spitfire replacement amounts.
Whole map utilisation: Targets are located across all of England
Wall of Death: Currently switched on but may be switched off if I implement Red attack options (Currently undecided as the Reds will have a large amount of area to cover potentially)
Sin Bin: Pilots who hit the wrong target or do other "bad" stuff can/will be sinbinned, which prevents them from spawning for a period of time (currently set to 15 minutes but easily alterable)
Custom Menus: RDF, requesting bomber locations (if AI raids implemented), requesting current Aircraft numbers, request current target, request completed targets, Time left in mission
Different types of target: "Trigger" types whereby specific buildings and statics must be destroyed, "Area" whereby a required KG weight of bombs must explode and "planes" whereby a number of aircraft must be destroyed.
Target loss consequence: The industrial type targets will reduce replacement rates, airfield targets will remove the ability to spawn from that airfield
Persistency and randomisation: Mission will randomly select targets from all uncompleted targets. Accomplished target states are saved and reloaded next time the mission is played, as are the aircraft numbers and spawn point.
RTB time: When a target is accomplished, the mission checks to see if the time remaining is suitable to start another one. If not, it will give a half hour grace period for people to RTB (this may shorten the mission length from the <tl returned). New aircraft can still be spawned but will still count towards losses if lost. As soon as no planes are in the air it will end the mission.
Dynamic AI Raids: Similar system to London Raids, can aim for objectives or non objective targets as required.

List of Currently defined Targets:
Southampton Docks
Southampton Electrical Works
Woolston Supermarine Works
Itchen General Aircraft Factory
Short Brothers Factory
Brooklands Hawker Factory
Brooklands Vickers Works
RAE Farnborough
Feltham Aircraft Factory
Langley Hawker Factory
6 x RDF stations
8+ Airfields (Spawnable)
4+ Airfields (non Spawnable - Hit during the BoB in mistaken belief they were Fighter Command)
Dover Docks
Portsmouth Docks
3 x London Dockyards

As you can see, there's a LOT of targets for the Blues to go for.

Soooo, the purpose of this thread. Which of the following options do you vote for:

Option 1
targets include industrial, docks, RDF and airfields
Blues are presented with 1 target at a time, and there are penalties for hitting the "wrong" one.

Option 2
targets include industrial, docks
Blues are presented 1 target at a time, and there are penalties for hitting the "wrong" one.
Blues can target RDF and airfields as they see fit.
RDF and airfields repair over time

Option 3
targets include industrial, docks, RDF and airfields
Blues can attack any target they like with zero restriction or penalty for hitting the wrong one.

Option 1 is the current implementation and represents German High Command delivering the overall campaign directives. Option 2 gives Blues more strategic options but could dilute the overall *thrust of the mission, Option 3 gives most latitude to the Blues, but makes the Reds job almost impossible due to the ground they have to cover and likely player numbers.

Kling
Jan-08-2014, 05:42
Yes yes yes!!!!!!! Finally and a mission that encourages RTB ing!!!!!!!

ATAG_EvangelusE
Jan-08-2014, 06:54
It sounds very interesting. I voted for option 1 but I am not sure how some players will react to the implementation of a 'sinbin', especially if they join the mission and not read the brief, are unaware of this feature, etc.

J-HAT
Jan-08-2014, 06:54
Great, Reddog, very nice!!! I can't stop smiling at this.

As for the options, I would go for option 1 to keep the action relatively concentrated. Option 2 would dillute the fights and option 3 does not represent any advance in terms of gameplay from what we have now. Option 1 is the only one that trully changes the way we currently play.

Even though destroying RDF (within Option 1, though) would be nice to disable Red's ability to locate incoming raids, I thing that would make the game for the Red's less interesting (ie. by already not knowing which target is to be attacked and not being able to know the attackers' current location, they would be scattered all over the map even more; at least after the first RDF messages and maybe following attacks, the current Blue target would be more clear and concentrate Reds' efforts on it).

As for the "sin bin", it only affects bombers as I understood it. A fighter wouldn't be able to destroy a mission's target.
Since any bomber pilot needs to read the briefing to know what targets to hit, the info about only hitting the current one should be very clear and easy to see to prevent them from being "sin binned". Fighters that just spawn and go, let's call it Free Hunting, wouldn't be affected.

Kling
Jan-08-2014, 07:26
Also there must be reminders in the middle of the screen reminding people when spawning a new aircraft of the importance of RTB due to the plane limits!! This will be a great misson!!

SoW Reddog
Jan-08-2014, 08:06
Even though destroying RDF (within Option 1, though) would be nice to disable Red's ability to locate incoming raids, I thing that would make the game for the Red's less interesting (ie. by already not knowing which target is to be attacked and not being able to know the attackers' current location, they would be scattered all over the map even more; at least after the first RDF messages and maybe following attacks, the current Blue target would be more clear and concentrate Reds' efforts on it).

I can script RDF to be knocked out for maybe 30 minutes, representing the time it takes to get mobile equipment set up, or repair the damage etc. Lets face it, each "target" is more representing a day's raids, rather than the actual time taken to knock it out. I guess it's a bit like "Battle of Britain" in a day.



As for the "sin bin", it only affects bombers as I understood it.
Who said that? :devilish: AS I said, anyone who does "bad stuff" can get binned. How we define "bad stuff" is for another discussion but it could be failing to RTB 3 planes in succession for example. (not suggesting this, but it could be tailored to different offences)



A fighter wouldn't be able to destroy a mission's target.
Since any bomber pilot needs to read the briefing to know what targets to hit, the info about only hitting the current one should be very clear and easy to see to prevent them from being "sin binned". Fighters that just spawn and go, let's call it Free Hunting, wouldn't be affected.
B model aircraft will be available to the Blues, but likely will be in small supply and inefficient at taking down many of the targets (possibly completely out of range of some of them) The Blue players will have the ability to check the Current target at any point via the menu so there shouldn't be any confusion. I'll post "recon" shots of all targets highlighting the buildings which constitute the targets once the list is set (will probably need a bit of help taking all the screenshots!)


Kling, it'll be in the briefing. Its down to peer pressure to stop people being dicks IMO. I'm doing what I can from the mission side but I can't script every eventuality.

Kling
Jan-08-2014, 08:28
Kling, it'll be in the briefing. Its down to peer pressure to stop people being dicks IMO. I'm doing what I can from the mission side but I can't script every eventuality.

Sure I agree I just meant that people might not always read the briefing and since this will be the ONLY mission where RTBing is essential in winning the map maybe it should be noted when you spawn. Just like the message that says which mission it is and version.. i.e "Operation homeplate ver.2.1" for exmple. Bomber pilots are used to reading the briefing, fighter pilots usually spawn and fly without reading it and therefor it could be good for them/us to know that on this very mission we must try to rtb instead of press esc when damaged.

ATAG_Freya
Jan-08-2014, 08:37
Sounds great! I, too, voted option 1, because if the whole map is being used, the action needs to be focused somewhere to avoid players flying around for 2 hours and not seeing a dang thing. All the rest sounds great to me! Thx RedDog!

Kling
Jan-08-2014, 08:54
Just to confirm one thing Reddog. If I land my aircraft at homebase and respawn instead of <rr, will my side lose one plane or will it be +1-1 because I landed back at base and then respawned?

Another thing, if some bombers decide to attack a the supermarine factory although its not the target at the moment, will the amount of available spitfires be affected?! Or will those bomber pilots be punished for attacking a non active target?

Maybe one idea would be to always have aircraft factories as active targets. It would add a very dynamic feeling to the map. As a bomber pilot you would see the results of your actions within 10mins. Suddenly majority of reds would fly Hurris due to your successful attack...for example... :)

EG14_Marcast
Jan-08-2014, 09:14
This map looks terrific! The list of targets alone is so impressive, and there are a lot of interesting solutions! I voted option 2, as it seems to me the best compromise between realism (before a big raid I think it should be taken care to "blind" the enemy) and playability. But of course any choice is good for me.

SoW Reddog
Jan-08-2014, 09:50
Just to confirm one thing Reddog. If I land my aircraft at homebase and respawn instead of <rr, will my side lose one plane or will it be +1-1 because I landed back at base and then respawned?

You spawn -1 from E4 pool. You land +1 to E4 pool. You Spawn again -1. And so on. So net affect is zero if you return the aircraft.



Another thing, if some bombers decide to attack a the supermarine factory although its not the target at the moment, will the amount of available spitfires be affected?! Or will those bomber pilots be punished for attacking a non active target?

Depends which option has been implemented. If it's Option 1 (which seems to be getting the votes) then the player who hit it will be punished, the building will be destroyed, the Target will be removed from the list of "open" targets and the consequence of that will destruction will NOT be applied. If it's Option 3 then it's fair game, no one is punished, the target is "completed" and the consequences WILL be applied.



Maybe one idea would be to always have aircraft factories as active targets. It would add a very dynamic feeling to the map. As a bomber pilot you would see the results of your actions within 10mins. Suddenly majority of reds would fly Hurris due to your successful attack...for example... :)
That's Option 3.

SoW Reddog
Jan-08-2014, 09:58
This map looks terrific! The list of targets alone is so impressive, and there are a lot of interesting solutions! I voted option 2, as it seems to me the best compromise between realism (before a big raid I think it should be taken care to "blind" the enemy) and playability. But of course any choice is good for me.

Hi marcastel. Option 1 could give that too, but you'd need to have the high command (ie random sequence) order that the RDF site be destroyed before the "primary" target. Of course the LW overall direction of the real BoB wasn't necessarily driven by sensible sequencing of decisions either!

Now there's been a few replies, I might as well give my take on the 3 options given:

Option 1
Very prescriptive and players need to accept the penalty system and play by the rules. Is driven by random sequencing which can lead to odd directives.

Option 2
Problem I can see with Option 2 is it gives the Blues the ability to knock out RDF and spawn bases and basically win the Battle of Britain without making any of the "mistakes" that historically happened. Lets face it, Pilots don't make strategic targeting decisions, yet we do on ATAG.

Option 3
As said above, this is basically a free for all that we currently have and I'm not particularly interested in delivering another mission in the same mould.

J-HAT
Jan-08-2014, 11:16
Hey reddog, thanks for your answers. I had prepared an answer but my PC crashed...

I thought there would be no 109 Jabos. If they can bomb and other criteria ca be used for the sin bin, then ok :)

About the 30 minutes, I find it a good compromise and a good solution. Blues could destroy the radar station in advance of an attack to that area. That would delay red's responses but as soon as the radar station was up or the targets have been hit (or even the station destroyed message appears, depending on target's proximity), reds would know again where to go. It makes a very tactical option for bombers. Imagine synchronizing the attack on the station with the main bombers and go for the intended target just after the RDF being destroyed taking a different route. just a question: would 30 minutes be enough for blues to benefit from it? It the flights are timed properly, I think so. But I don't know the distances.

Yeah, if the factories would still have their effect on production once destroyed even if they were no targets, it wouldn't make sense. If the penalty was too light, people would do it to handicap the red team. If the penalty was too high, no one would do it, making programing it to reduce the "airplane output" useless.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-08-2014, 11:26
just a question: would 30 minutes be enough for blues to benefit from it? It the flights are timed properly, I think so. But I don't know the distances.


I think it would. Even a raid that was already plotted would suddenly blink off the RADAR. Also, I think that raids only need a 15 minute window in order to git into a position that makes scrambling to meet them very difficult. Sure, they might re-appear once the RADAR is repaired and goes live again, but by then they could be on the bomb run, or up too high (and too close) for a proper defence to rally in time.

ATAG_Lolsav
Jan-08-2014, 12:13
Seems im more inclinated to "option 1". I dont like "option 2" for the following reason: Why a team should be prejuduice if a go-nuts starts to go on his own business? I know people should read the briefing, but most dont or dont know how to read it.

EG14_Marcast
Jan-08-2014, 12:28
Hi marcastel. Option 1 could give that too, but you'd need to have the high command (ie random sequence) order that the RDF site be destroyed before the "primary" target. Of course the LW overall direction of the real BoB wasn't necessarily driven by sensible sequencing of decisions either!



Well, so I think option 1 is even better: pilots will have precise directives to observe and this will ease team work, at least for bombers. Just one question: will the orders' sequence be totally random? I mean could it happen that you'll be ordered to destroy a RDF at Dover or the Eastchurch airfield before striking Southampton? :stunned:

SoW Reddog
Jan-08-2014, 15:18
Well, so I think option 1 is even better: pilots will have precise directives to observe and this will ease team work, at least for bombers. Just one question: will the orders' sequence be totally random? I mean could it happen that you'll be ordered to destroy a RDF at Dover or the Eastchurch airfield before striking Southampton? :stunned:

Yes absolutely.

Kling
Jan-08-2014, 16:33
Haha I would like to complicate it and mix option 1 and 3! Single objectives AND ONLY aircraft factories open all the time. I would happily escort a formation (or single player flown bomber) that is heading for the Spit1a100oct factory, knowing that reds will be stuck with inferiour planes for a certain time if this factory is destroyed... :)

ATAG_Ribbs
Jan-08-2014, 18:58
I like Klings idea of maybe combining 1-3. would make for compelling game play. As well as doing the same for the reds.. Make bombing some factories in France give the Blues inferior aircraft. (this might spread the reds to thin, but I feel something needs implemented to put the blues at some sort of disadvantage also).

Bear Pilot
Jan-08-2014, 19:36
I think blues will do that on their own. Escorting bombers deep into southern England is extremely hazardous and when there is a set pool that can be depleted, I think it will become obvious very quickly how dangerous it is.


I think this will be a great mission! I've been hoping for mission with fewer but larger and objectives to concentrate the fight and I think this will be it!

Good on ya Reddog :thumbsup: :salute:

LuseKofte
Jan-09-2014, 06:32
I voted for 2 , a secondary target is nessersery and historical. Flying to target in HE 111 without possibilities to divert to another target is suicide and will ultimately lead to frustration and people opt to fighters or leaving.
There should be a high command order on what to hit, and it should be penalty for not escorting and support own bombers.
The red should be punished if they cannot land at home base so kamikaze attacks don't happened when they out of ammo. Itstarting to be a problem in Homeplate mission

Jugdriver
Jan-09-2014, 11:58
Good stuff Reddog. I voted for Option 2. It gives the Blues a clear target but also the tactical latitude to hit airfields and RDF to accomplish the main mission. The Reds have to defend the main target but also keep an eye on their airfields and RDF.

AKA_MattE

Little_D
Jan-09-2014, 12:05
Hi Reddog, hi gents

i voted for option 1

cant wait to fly this map :-)

maps go better and better

regards

Little_D

Maltloaf1
Jan-09-2014, 13:13
Option 1 and if you could arrange the bombing of RAE and save me going to work in the morning that would be good, oops that's a give away.

Maltloaf

AKA_Recon
Jan-09-2014, 14:16
I went with option 1 - thanks for having a vote - and appreciate your work on this - sounds like it will be a blast!

(oh, and I assume if you are German and ask for objectives it will tell you what current target is?)

LuseKofte
Jan-10-2014, 07:46
It seems to me that option one is in the lead. but still it would not be historical nor wise to not having a secondary target. It is many times not possible to approach a target with a HE-111 or a JU-87 Stuka if the density of enemy fighters are too severe.
And it will be in this scenario. Since it is an open server we talk about a organized escort is not going to happened 50% of the time.
But I understand the priority here, about actions.
If not a secondary target is to be used, what about this suggestion:
Is it possible to make the targets randomly so the reds does not know what target is next, so they have to depend on Radar and intel to find us? Because that would make it more immersive

SoW Reddog
Jan-10-2014, 08:39
It seems to me that option one is in the lead. but still it would not be historical nor wise to not having a secondary target. It is many times not possible to approach a target with a HE-111 or a JU-87 Stuka if the density of enemy fighters are too severe.
And it will be in this scenario. Since it is an open server we talk about a organized escort is not going to happened 50% of the time.
But I understand the priority here, about actions.
If not a secondary target is to be used, what about this suggestion:
Is it possible to make the targets randomly so the reds does not know what target is next, so they have to depend on Radar and intel to find us? Because that would make it more immersive

Jaeger, did you read the first post


Mission will randomly select targets from all uncompleted targets
OR

Is driven by random sequencing which can lead to odd directives
OR



Just one question: will the orders' sequence be totally random? Yes absolutely.

This is the second time you've posted this kind of suggestion, I get that you want a secondary target. The point of the thread and indeed the poll was to see what everyone wanted. I've half a mind to release this idea based on Option 3 to the Storm of War server where it'd work much better, allowing the Blues to set their own primary and secondary targets per mission, but keeping to specific guidelines and rules, but this is a discussion FOR the ATAG server.

LuseKofte
Jan-10-2014, 09:28
Sorry :(

I just love the things you are about to do. Excitement with over enthusiasm .

J-HAT
Jan-11-2014, 07:34
Hi Reddog,

I'm just curious. Did you consider allowing the radar stations to be destroyed and stay out of service for a certain amount of time, as we discuseed in the first posts?
Or are you going to go for pure option 1 after all?

Can't wait for this mission!!